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Thoughtful Edge, Episode 6, Navigating the Leap from Individual Contributor to Leadership Mastery
52 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, I’d like to discuss quite an interesting and quite challenging topic that I believe is relevant for everybody on their career journey. The topic is Navigating the Leap from Individual Contributor to Leadership Mastery. And it is about a transition from individual contributor to leadership roles and the choices we need to make on this path.
My guest is Sam Haboush, VP of Innovation Engineering at Kinesso with more than 25 years of experience in the industry, my colleague and dear friend.
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, hello.
Introduction to the Episode
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Thoughtful Edge podcast hosted by Admitros of Chanka, and this is episode number six. Today I'd like to discuss a quite an interesting and challenging topic that I believe is relevant to everybody in their career journey. The topic is navigating the leap from individual contributor to leadership mastery. And it's about the transition from individual contributor to leadership roles and the choices we need to make on this path.
Meet Sam Habush
00:00:31
Speaker
My guest today is Sam Habush, VP of Innovation and Engineering at Kinesa. He has a solid background in software engineering, in particular 25 years, which is solid and huge. He's also my colleague and dear friend.
00:00:52
Speaker
So Sam, could you please introduce yourself and tell us about your current role at Kinesse and what is it interesting you do? Hi Dima. Thank you so much for having me here. This is really an honor. So I can introduce myself. Right now I'm a VP of Innovation Engineering and what that means is that I focus on the innovation aspect of the engineering department within Kinesse.
00:01:20
Speaker
You know, there was a lot of problems that kind of differ between innovation R&D research and development. And, you know, when you had low certainty around what you're building, what you're trying to discover and the conventional engineering discipline where we're creating stories and adding features that customers have requested, you know, through a regular scrum or agile process.
00:01:45
Speaker
And so that requires different tools, different milestones, different processes, and different adaptations. And so I lead the teams that help bridge that gap, taking a product from R&D to production-ready customer-facing product.
00:02:03
Speaker
Nice, nice. Thank you. Yeah, this is a really important job and a really important role because sometimes there are projects that just cannot be done because nobody can just put it in production and predict size the way that anybody can use it and not just be run and executed on some local laptop.
00:02:26
Speaker
OK, so let's come back to our main topic. Having so many years of experience, like you went through, I can imagine, like everything. You worked in different positions, different companies, different roles.
Journey to Leadership
00:02:42
Speaker
And how did you first identify your desire to transition from IC, individual contributor, to a leadership role in the engineering space?
00:02:55
Speaker
So, you know, I like stories, so I'm going to actually tell you what happened to me, my story, towards thinking about leadership and actually focusing on that more than my engineering skills, perhaps. You know, when you finish school, you've learned a lot about how to engineer software. You think you knew about that topic enough to be employed, and then you discover actually there is a big gap between what you learned.
00:03:22
Speaker
at school and then what actually happens in the industry, there is a lot of missing pieces. And so you start building these and you really develop this fervor, almost, love for learning new things and how to craft faster, highly scalable, super megabata oriented, the cool new language and the cool new framework.
00:03:45
Speaker
And so you're running after these things, because you know what? Once you know all of these, you'll be so effective, so fascinatingly productive, et cetera, et cetera. And then someone comes who probably doesn't know as much as you know about all these new cool things and changes the equations by asking few questions or by making a presentation about very
00:04:14
Speaker
probably high level, you know, topic that I have not thought about or considered because I was busy with the lines of code and all the other mechanics. And so like, you know, that made me at some point having had that from very talented leaders in my organizations that I worked in at the time made me stop. And, um,
00:04:36
Speaker
think, oh, maybe it's not about what I thought it is. And then my journey began. I'll let you continue because that's then maybe the beginning. That's when I thought, okay, what I'm doing is not what's going to make me 10X. That's not what's going to make the project succeed. That's not what is going to break the next big thing. I have to do something else. And I started looking at these leaders and what they do.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, and hence it moves there. Nice, nice. What's an interesting perspective? So you as engineer, you were looking at the products, how you can scale the product actually, and then you realized, oh, how can I scale myself? And is it just learning another language? Is it learning another framework?
00:05:27
Speaker
And then, yeah, there is something else that they need to do on this journey to scale by itself. It's just not solved through some ordinary stuff or the things that you get used to.
Essential Leadership Skills
00:05:43
Speaker
So what are the key skills or experiences you identified as required to develop in order to make this transition successful?
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah, you know, they didn't all come about at the same time, but, you know, I would say that people is the focus of this. You know, I was just telling you that I looked at other people and I noticed, observed that they are much more effective despite maybe not having all the knowledge in all the spaces that I knew about. I knew all the core frameworks. So really, people focus is really an important skill. I would say it is maybe the most important.
00:06:25
Speaker
So when you look at the software project, people just generally focus on what database are you using, what technology are you using, agile or not, and some other questions related to the mechanics. But really, I think once you become a leader, you have to first look at the people.
00:06:44
Speaker
Have you hired the right team? How is the team working together? What is the culture within the team? And so on. Are they happy? Are they comfortable? Are they commuting too far, et cetera, et cetera? I think people focus in all their aspects. That's really one important one. The second one is that not to be victim to yourself, I would say. So I have bad habits.
00:07:10
Speaker
Sometimes I don't think carefully before I speak. I might be emotional in some conversations, you know, things, you know, I'm just a human and I have these flows. And I would say that I've heard that again from other people and I've just noticed the difference that it makes. You have to be conscious and deliberate and measured about your responses to stimuli around you in the environment in order to be effective at influencing it towards a positive outcome.
00:07:39
Speaker
So your natural reactions might not be the best ones that you can come up with. I think that's an important really, a skill that I would say for leadership. Yeah. Yeah, anything else? Yeah, it's nice with me as well. And I was also contemplating this idea of like, to
00:08:04
Speaker
Be able to talk to different people. You need to use different language. But if you'll start using different language, then you might lose your authenticity. This was my way of thinking. But then I've read somewhere an interesting idea which says actually that it's not about changing your authenticity. It's just using an adapter to your language.
00:08:30
Speaker
the way you use for the outlet socket when you travel to different countries. You need this adapter to use your appliances or your smartphone charger or whatever. You're still the same. You're still using this. You still have the same soul. You still have the same ideas. But you just use the adapter to be able to communicate them successfully and effectively to other people. Yeah, good perspective.
Letting Go of Technical Details
00:08:58
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
00:09:00
Speaker
And still, having this solid background in engineering and having spent so many hours doing the coding on research or some technical stuff, it might be tough for one to balance that technical expertise with the new responsibility of the leadership. So what is your answer to that? Yeah, that's it.
00:09:28
Speaker
You know, this is actually, it's interesting. My answer to this is it's going to be related to also some of the maybe not skills, but perspectives that I gained. So that the previous question, you know, I genuinely made the mistake of thinking I'm going to learn everything. I actually thought that is like, that was an intention. And, you know, to me today, I think that was deluded and, you know, perhaps ambitious, but maybe unrealizable.
00:09:57
Speaker
And so I think one of the things that I had to become comfortable with is that that balance means losing some battles with technology and delegating them to my team. So, you know, becoming really part of the team and allowing myself to allow other people to excel in things that I don't have the time or the focus to do. So, so that comes to, you know, the skill to trust others, the skill to understand your own limitations.
00:10:26
Speaker
Like you are not going to be that all knowledgeable God that you think you can if you try it hard enough. And that just changes everything around that. That's not to say that I am not spending time to learn what I think is interesting.
00:10:46
Speaker
And that matters to my company, my organization, or my next big thing. But that gives me the focus to say, like, I'm going to learn that much and then let the rest of the team take care of the rest. And that works. Yeah, completely understand. Yeah. I also have this natural temptation all the time. Oh, I need to learn about that thing more. Like, let me dive. Let me, let me read some of these videos. Like, let's be run.
00:11:14
Speaker
Let me try to run this app and see how it goes and how it works. This is really a challenge. This is really a challenge. Do you, can you remember any other challenges that was difficult for you to grasp and get the idea of like how these people are being successful in the leadership roles? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think you're talking generally like, you know, other challenges that will face as I make the transition. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:44
Speaker
I would say letting go of details was really difficult. You know, as an engineer, you have this habit actually to like master your craft so deeply. Like, you know, I used to like review every line of code or, you know, know everything there is to know about Spring or Java or Haskell or whatever, you know, other technology that at hand and then like actually then moving to focus on outcomes for your people.
00:12:12
Speaker
or, you know, the team or having a vision that is very blurry, it's a high level, you know, thing so that you have to like rethink what you're looking at, you know, at a very, I think, different abstraction level, I would say. Yeah, that was really tough, I think.
00:12:33
Speaker
Also having to learn them to deal with a lot of people from different styles. So you're the communication of the team if you're leading, you're a team lead or a department lead. So your colleagues then will vary. So you might join a team with a culture that is really healthy and you're happy. Everybody is great because you're an IC within a team that fits you. You agreed to just join that group and work with them. But as a team lead or an organization lead,
00:13:01
Speaker
you cannot escape dealing with DevOps and you didn't choose them or you couldn't escape to work with marketing and you didn't choose them, but you have to, or HR. And so you'll be that kind of interface. And so that flexes a lot of muscles in your brain and heart that did not have to be flexed when you're dealing with computers and your small community of developers on your team.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah, this is very true. All the stakeholders, maybe some of your other peers that you need to negotiate with, maybe sometimes you don't want to do it, but it is what it is.
Communication in Remote Settings
00:13:39
Speaker
It is needed to accomplish your project successfully. Maybe they have some knowledge or they have some resources that you don't possess at this current moment and they help you. Yeah, it's all about communication.
00:13:54
Speaker
If you're talking about the communication, how you ensure the effective communication between your team members, especially when you're dealing with the complex engineering project? Yeah, it's a very good question, actually. And I have to say, you know, one of the things that I think I heard, and then now I just repeat all the time, communication is everything. So like, you just asked me about everything.
00:14:21
Speaker
And I think that's really an extremely important aspect that we have to think about. So to me as well, that even is more compounded in a remote world after the pandemic. So since the pandemic, that becomes even more challenging and requires more thought and consideration from leadership in any organization. So to me, I think I try very hard to provide the best tools that I can.
00:14:49
Speaker
I see people without good mics, without internet, without cameras, without good cameras, you know, without, you know, maybe like in the wrong time zone in the, like, or, or in a different time zone. There is no wrong time zones there. All right.
00:15:05
Speaker
You know, et cetera, et cetera, a lot of challenges. So any tool that I can provide, I think it's worth the money. So I would buy people the cameras if they're missing. I would improve their laptops if they can't cope with the calls, et cetera, et cetera. You know, if Teams is the right tool or Slack is the right tool or whatever it is that is needed to make that happen, you know, I like spare no effort to make sure that this happens. And also I think I try to, you know,
00:15:33
Speaker
uh, set some expectations and habits for the team. So like when we join before we start, we have cadence habits and routines. I think that becomes more natural. I noticed if you leave it organic, it becomes really depends. So I would rather the opposite. We start with a good like base that we say, okay, that's what most of us will do. And then if there are exceptions, maybe, you know, someone cannot
00:15:59
Speaker
follow these expectations or habits, you know, accommodations are always made. So that's okay. And then maybe, you know, I did the easy stuff. I mean, in my view, tools and expectations are easy, but then I think they're more difficult, but more important also is the culture that we create within the team. So trust, you know, if you love your colleagues, you don't need someone to tell you to communicate with them. You're looking for an opportunity already, right?
00:16:30
Speaker
Right. That's, that's just natural. And then the freedom. So, you know, like you, you should not feel that you cannot express yourself within your teams. That's really important. So that comes also from the trust and safety and the culture that you create, you create around this and also making it fun, you know, for people, you know, useful and available and inclusive.
00:16:54
Speaker
You have the quiet people, the loud people, the non-stop talking people, et cetera, et cetera. And you have to make sure they're honest. Give everybody your words. Yeah. So that's what I would say about communication. Yeah. Yeah. That's really important. And I would also like to emphasize that
00:17:19
Speaker
like point that you'd rather give everybody an opportunity to express themselves, like even explicitly asking everybody in the room, like, what is your opinion on the topic? Because sometimes, like we engineers, we like, sometimes we are shy of sometimes we just don't want to say anything because like, we feel comfortable without that. But if
00:17:46
Speaker
If we are given a stage, we can definitely make a difference by introducing our unique perspective for some of our thoughts and ideas. Yeah, it's very important encouraging this communication during some of these meetings and not forgetting about the people who might be not that vocal as somebody else as well.
Aligning Projects and Performance
00:18:11
Speaker
Okay, let's move on then. How do you manage the expectation and career development for your team members while still meeting the project goals and deadlines? Yeah, another challenging area, but I think like, you know, I've got a couple of tricks up my sleeves. So, you know, to me, I do my best to match projects and people's aspirations or interests in my organization.
00:18:41
Speaker
You really don't want to ask someone to do something for eight hours a day when they hate it. That's a tough ask that is doomed to fail most of the time, or at least be suboptimal for both the organization and the person involved. So I think that helps if you can do that. You hire people that are interested in the job, or you find jobs for the people that you've hired that they are interested in. That's really one important thing.
00:19:05
Speaker
And, um, you know, sometimes of course, you know, there is expectation to do things that are not nice, but they should not be the dominant part of your job. And then, you know, that's, that's next makes people happy, but then the other side is career. How do they get promotions? You know, how, how do you do performance reviews, et cetera, et cetera. And to me, this is really transactional. I like this one to be transactional because it's naturally emotional. You know, if, if, if people.
00:19:34
Speaker
do not have clear expectations in order to move up or get a particular grade, et cetera, then it becomes a guesswork and a lot of emotions. And that is, it's already emotional. So it becomes, it's really difficult. So I like it really to be transactional. I would agree with most of my people on a contract, like if we deliver this way with this quality, mostly numeric, something either binary or numeric, like we finished project X before day X.
00:20:01
Speaker
that's binary or numeric, we get $90,000 before that date in income or in like customer acquisition, whatever it is, then you will become from that role to that role or from that title to that title. I think that for me, or you will get that grade or whatever it is. And so I think that makes then when the time comes to talk about it, it becomes a really easy conversation.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, so that's kind of the two approaches, the contract based approach for career management, and also the attempt to make people happy and interested in what they're doing. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I totally agree with that too. Like it's more, it's more you trust people and it's more you demonstrate them your like good intentions and your trust in them and your
00:20:56
Speaker
or you just believe in their success and encourage them to go forward and to make an extra mile in their effort to achieve something. Yeah, this is very important. Yeah, I noticed that also that allows them to negotiate. If you agree beforehand on a contract, it's just like a contract with any company. Before you sign it, you might say, oh, can I
00:21:21
Speaker
check on this close or no, I don't think I can, you know, sign this one. This is too much money or whatever it is. So, you know, that actually really makes it like a two way communication at the beginning, at the right time, instead of a surprise, you know, towards the end or, you know, of a cycle or a time for promotion or, you know, something like that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. That makes total sense.
Conflict Resolution Strategies
00:21:45
Speaker
However, there are often, or not often, depending on the team, there are the conflict situations and disagreements. And especially when it comes to technical decisions, like what tool we should use, like what programming language or database we should choose for that or another task or that or another problem. How do you handle these conflicts? What are the strategies you might suggest?
00:22:16
Speaker
Okay. So this is, this is, this is a big one, you know, again, because it has people and emotions. So it's, it's another big one. So, you know, I would say I started this actually with myself, you know, I used to have these actually conflicts as well. I used to think what you've just done person X is wrong. And, and what I said should be done is right. This has to go. I started with myself to understand actually in tech, there is no right or wrong.
00:22:46
Speaker
You know, even if you take the most obvious examples, there is no right or wrong, there is just trade-offs. And I think, you know, I try to help my people and coach them towards looking at everything in that same, you know, exact way. And then that helps them not to take it personal and just see the other trade-offs. So we've just lost something and we gained something else or the reverse and that's how it works.
00:23:12
Speaker
You know, so once I got that out of myself, now I feel like I can look at this, you know, easier or help like people as well get there. And then I think we should start early. You know, people who actually I focus on my hiring on that side are these people.
00:23:30
Speaker
Easily like offended or they have very high ego or look at the world with right wrong lens And I think I try to avoid that Higher if I start I think that's really important in my team. I like to not have those people get in And then I think the care and the genuine
00:23:54
Speaker
trust of the team members. So you need to really plan that trust so that the conversation becomes not about who's right and who's wrong, but rather about what is best for all of us. And then also look at every piece of technical decision as an experiment. Nothing works always or fails always. And it is complex to make these decisions and hence
00:24:19
Speaker
there is nothing to say we should experiment with X before Y or Y before X and it's never too late to run the next experiment. So I am also trying to, you know, always, you know, encourage the team to look at these things in that way. And then, you know, also you look for the win-win. I oftentimes see that actually two sides that have two different opinions, if they actually stop,
00:24:45
Speaker
they will find that you can get both. You know, for example, you might have solution X hybrid with solution Y, or you might actually find... This is my favorite. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, they just need to think about it. Try to find the win-win instead of trying to win. Try the other side to win as well. So you know, I always like try to look for these solutions so that everybody is happy.
00:25:11
Speaker
And then if these old things don't work, we really have to trust the leader or third party to make that decision and work on disagree and commit. So we ultimately cannot do both. But because we trust each other, and that's how the team works, we'll trust Sam or Dima or some other lead or a third even developer on the team that we trust to make a decision for us and we'll move on. I think these are mostly the measures that I take.
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, agreed completely. Like the balance, you need to find the balance, the right balance between the pros and cons, like benefits, outcomes, and how it all will play together ultimately in the results. I would also add that it's important to keep an eye on the price, like to see
00:26:07
Speaker
like the whole picture, what are you going to achieve? What do you want to achieve? And what is the goal of this whole exercise? And what is the most efficient way to do that? Yeah, nice. Yeah, good strategies. Thank
Advice for Aspiring Leaders
00:26:22
Speaker
you for sharing. So and moving on, what advice would you give to individual contributor considering a transition to a leadership role in our engineering field?
00:26:35
Speaker
Yeah, no, I would say that you genuinely have to want to do it. And I think I would advise him to ask that question and really do some research on what that entails before deciding that, yeah, sharing with your manager or applying for a job in that kind of role.
00:26:57
Speaker
You know, it changes you. It changes what you do on a day to day. It requires other effort. And so if you really don't want to do it and you're not sure, you might fail and put yourself in a position that is not favorable or happy for you or others as well. So it's really important to study that. And then once you discover or you decide that this is the thing for you, I would say, as we said, people.
00:27:24
Speaker
Look for people who've done it. Look for the people who've done it successfully and learn what they do. Read books about the topic. There are classics. There are successful ones. Go ahead and read them. You know, subscribe to a blog or something about the topic. Again, leadership and things like that. Don't wing it. Don't think you're talented. It has been right to subscribe to a Thoughtful Edge podcast, for example. Yes, exactly. Subscribe to Divas. Yeah, to Divas.
00:27:53
Speaker
podcast, I think that would be a great resource. So yeah, I think that's that's really an important one. And also, I would recommend them not to fall in the trap of becoming a mere manager. To be a leader is very different from being a simple manager who
00:28:15
Speaker
You know, like, is the boss in a team? That is not what you want to do. I would advise not to aspire towards that. Try to be a leader that people follow you, not you drag them. And that's really a big difference.
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah, all the modern studies suggest exactly what you just said. People will feel happier if they will have the leader instead of a manager, the person who would listen to them, who would appreciate their work.
00:28:48
Speaker
who would encourage to build trust between the team members and just having empathy and ability to negotiate, finding the right balance between different decisions. It's all an important side of that. I also would like to emphasize on the
00:29:11
Speaker
The most important question, whether you want to do that or not. Maybe it's not for you. I've seen examples when people would take on some leadership position and then work there for a while and then decide to move back to an ICU role because they realized that it's not something they wanted to do anymore. They just want to enjoy the
00:29:37
Speaker
coding. They just want to enjoy whatever they get used to doing and they got pretty happy about that. But if you will ultimately decide, the most obvious thing is definitely look at someone who already did that. What are these
00:30:04
Speaker
attributes and characteristics, what are the skills they possess that you don't at this moment and just try to fill these gaps and it will all come ultimately. Okay, let's move on. It is the crazy world now and the technology is developing at so quick pace that it's very hard to stay up to date with the latest development.
00:30:30
Speaker
in technologies, in software, in the whole AI and other stuff that's appearing every day, like every programming languages that's popping up here and there, like in masses. And how do you stay up to date with all of that? And how do you encourage continuous learning within your team?
Continuous Learning and Development
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So I really like to make learning a discipline process, not an optional one. I feel in that awesome mistake before.
00:31:08
Speaker
It's like, yeah, you know, I've got that book on the shelf that I'm going to read, but you know, today was a busy day. So I'm going to skip today, but tomorrow I'm going to read it. Okay. That's like, I'm going to read a couple of pages tomorrow. And then tomorrow comes in the after. And so, you know, that lack of methodology, methodological, et cetera, the right word, you know, a methodic like approach to learning.
00:31:33
Speaker
is I think problematic and it causes me some trouble. And then I learned that really this plan is probably one of the most important things about learning that you need to do. You cannot skip it. And so I set up a minimum. I have on my mobile a reminder every day at a particular time that now it's the time to read. And so I do that.
00:31:54
Speaker
So that's really important. And then I would say as well that listening and allowing others to teach you is really important. So in a lot of meetings, people spend the meeting talking instead of listening. And I think if they reverse that or like, you know, invest it in listening, they will learn actually. Because other people are talking about things. You'll be in a meeting about security and people will talk about security and you learn something about security.
00:32:22
Speaker
You'll hear them talking about AI, which is all the hype today. And then you'll learn something about AI, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's the habit I am trying to develop and improve.
00:32:35
Speaker
And then obviously, as well, as I told you earlier as well, I subscribe to some selected set of resources online to send me the latest summaries, podcasts, like yours or others are technical. And then I scavenge some time to listen to these or read these, waiting my wife to get dressed or listening to a podcast while driving the kids to school or back from dropping them at school, et cetera, et cetera.
00:33:05
Speaker
It's a challenge, but I think, you know, I'm doing okay. Yeah. Yeah. Done just by setting this example of yourself learning all the time. The other team members of your team can just follow. They will look at you and realize, oh, this guy is doing something interesting. I will probably try to do the same. Yeah, this is a good point.
00:33:30
Speaker
Nevertheless, we are coming to the ends of our today conversation and I have the last question for you which I believe is an interesting one and related to everything what is going on now in the market with the EI and some latest developments in that field.
AI's Impact on Leadership
00:33:48
Speaker
What is the future of engineering leadership and how this appearance of AI bot chat GPT might affect that and what are the other trends that you observe in the market?
00:34:06
Speaker
I'm not sure about how chat GPT will affect the leadership in organizations and enterprise. I feel though that AI in general will have a huge impact in the future because it will be able to give many insights that leaders lack today. They rely on tools that are not as effective
00:34:32
Speaker
or able, they're not as able to interpret the data that we have. So a lot of organizations, you'll find that either the tools to collect the data is broken or the insights from the data are manually or human made. And so they're less methodical or based on someone's bias towards how to look at this data or even serving the purpose of not upsetting the leader.
00:34:59
Speaker
And so they have to look beautiful, et cetera, et cetera. I think in the future, the data will be collected automatically and the insights will be presented hard and dry on the leader's desk. And so maybe more effective decisions will be made. This could be really positive if we also maintain our human aspect.
00:35:23
Speaker
So we look at the data, we understand the reality, but yet, you know, the decision should not be like merely on a non-human kind of interpretation of it. But yeah, I think it will help a lot. And I think that's, that's an exciting thing to product, to look at maybe in the future. Maybe that's an XDI, you know, a startup.
00:35:44
Speaker
leadership through AI. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I believe there are plenty of such products already in development, different groups and companies. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Mentorship and Self-awareness
00:35:58
Speaker
So thank you so much for coming to the, to my podcast today. It was very interesting conversation. Is there any last piece of advice you want to give listeners on our topic?
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I want to actually recommend people, whether they want to be leaders or not, to have a mentor or a role model. I think this goes along with the trust in other people. And also, it gives you hopefully a more impartial mirror for yourself.
00:36:34
Speaker
and makes you really, I think, a much better leader overall. Do not rely on yourself to walk that journey on your own. Walk it with others. You'll be more successful. That would be my last word there. Great, great. Thank you so much. This is very useful. And yeah, have a good rest of your day, and good luck, everyone. Bye.