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4. Disordered Eating in Perimenopause & Menopause with Lucene Wisniewski, Ph.D., FAED
132 Plays1 month ago
"By age 40, one in five women has dealt with an eating disorder—twice the rate we see by age 21." – Harvard University
While society often frames eating disorders as a struggle for teenagers, the reality is that women in midlife are increasingly vulnerable. In this episode, Dr. Rachel Pope addresses the "silent epidemic" affecting millions of women as they navigate the convergence of hormonal shifts, body image pressures, and life transitions.
As we continue our New Year’s series on weight management and GLP-1 medications, Dr. Pope is joined by internationally recognized expert Dr. Lucene Wisniewski. Together, they discuss the thin line between a healthy focus on nutrition and the onset of disordered eating. Why do perimenopause and menopause create a "biological window of risk"? How do we distinguish between "discipline" and "obsession"?
Dr. Lucene Wisniewski, PhD, FAED, is a leader in eating disorder treatment and Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) with nearly 30 years of experience. She provides a compassionate, evidence-based look at how women can protect their mental health while pursuing physical wellness.
In this episode, we discuss:
- The Hormonal Connection: Why the menopause transition is a high-risk period for both relapses and "de novo" (new) eating disorders.
- Effective vs. Rigid Eating: Moving away from black-and-white "food rules" toward a flexible, social, and balanced relationship with fuel.
- Red Flags in Midlife: How to identify signs of preoccupation, body checking, and the moralization of food.
- The "Binge-Restrict" Cycle: Why "not eating" is often the biggest trigger for out-of-control eating.
- Tracking Apps & Tech: When tools like macro-trackers stop being helpful and start becoming a "life stance."
- ARFID in Adults: Understanding Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder and how it differs from traditional anorexia.
- Supporting Others: How to broach a conversation with a friend or family member without causing shame (and why you should never do it at the dinner table).
National Resources for Help:
- NEDA Helpline: (800) 931-2237
- Crisis Text Line: Text "HOME" to 741741
- ANAD Helpline: (888) 375-7767
About Our Guest:
Dr. Lucene Wisniewski is the Founder and Chief Clinical Officer of the Center for Evidence-Based Treatment (CEBT). She is a Fellow of the Academy for Eating Disorders and an Adjunct Assistant Professor at Case Western Reserve University.
Connect with Dr. Wisniewski:
- Website: cebtohio.com
Connect with Dr. Rachel Pope:
- Website: ourwomanity.com
- Social Media: @drrachelpope
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Transcript
Trigger Warning and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Trigger warning, i want to let everyone know that we are going to be discussing disordered eating. And if you or someone you are close to has experienced this, this can be traumatic to hear about, to talk about, and just please take care
Prevalence of Eating Disorders in Midlife
00:00:15
Speaker
of yourself. And if you need help, we will be listing a national hotline on our show notes.
00:00:20
Speaker
While we often think of eating disorders as affecting teenagers, the reality is that women over 40 are increasingly vulnerable. By age 40, one in five women has dealt with an eating disorder. That's twice the rate we see by age 21. Crazy, right?
00:00:37
Speaker
Currently, about 13% of women over 50 experience eating disorder symptoms. And shockingly, 35% of women report picking up disordered eating behaviors like meal skipping, excessive exercise, or restrictive dieting for the first time in midlife.
00:00:52
Speaker
This is why we want to talk about this, because we're doing a lot on nutrition, on exercise right now as part of our New Year's Resolution series healthy living.
Treatment and Silent Epidemic
00:01:02
Speaker
but we want to make sure that we're not overdoing it.
00:01:04
Speaker
Despite all these alarming numbers, only about 27% of women with eating disorders in their 40s and 50s received any treatment. This is a silent epidemic affecting millions of women during a time when hormonal changes, body image pressures, and life transitions converge.
Introducing Dr. Lucene Wisniewski
00:01:20
Speaker
And we need to talk about it. I am so excited to have Dr. Lucene Wisniewski. She's a PhD, FAED, which she's going to explain to us. She's an internationally recognized leader in eating disorder treatment and dialectical behavior therapy, DBT.
00:01:35
Speaker
with almost 30 years of clinical research and training experience. She's here with us today to talk about disordered eating specifically for women in their midlife. She's an adjunct assistant professor of psychological sciences at Case Western Reserve University.
00:01:49
Speaker
She has taught hundreds of workshops, continuing education seminars and around the world. She travels a lot. I know this because she's a buddy of mine and it's hard to pin her down. She's authored numerous articles of peer-reviewed journals and invited book chapters, and she has earned some of the highest awards and accreditations in the field. She's been elected fellow by the Academy for Eating Disorders, AED, where she has served on the board of directors and as the co-chair of the Borderline Personality Disorder Special in Trust Group. She's the founder and chief clinical officer of the Center for Evidence-Based Treatment.
Risks of New Year's Resolutions and Menopause
00:02:21
Speaker
We'll put that website in our show notes, but it's cebtohio.com, which offers therapy, training, and consultation in evidence-based approaches to mental health conditions through traditional and teletherapy platforms. So thank you so much for being here.
00:02:35
Speaker
All right. So it kind of dawned on me that we're doing this whole series after the new year for New Year's resolution and healthy eating, healthy lifestyle that we're While we focus in on all of these things, especially GOP-1 medications and strength training, that it could trigger some unhealthy behaviors or habits for people. And I just wonder what your thoughts are on differentiating between sort of these healthy changes and focus on weight and health and nutrition versus like disordered eating and unhealthy behaviors. Yeah.
00:03:08
Speaker
no Fabulous question. And I think that it is probably the million dollar question. And I want to first say that menopause, perimenopause, postmenopause are because of the hormonal shifts are a risky time for women if they've had histories of eating disorders. And even there does seem to be some data to suggest that people can develop an eating disorder de novo during that time. And it makes sense because we know you know that adolescence is a time that hormones change and we see an increase in eating disorders. It makes sense that during menopause and perimenopause, when those things are changing again, that that would put some people at particular risk. And so I just want to say that if people are noticing, you know, because this is, I'm coming from the psychological perspective, yeah if they're noticing that actually their eating is more difficult, because I think there's the issues of setting goals and how do we do healthy eating and how do we not let it turn into something problematic? i think it's important, but I also want to say that there does seem to be some more out of control eating that happens around this time that seems to maybe be
00:04:16
Speaker
related to the changes in hormones so that if people are feeling like their eating is different, they may be right. And so I just don't want us to miss that piece also as we think about.
Societal Pressures and Healthy Eating Defined
00:04:29
Speaker
So that was the first part. Yeah, you're right. I think I think of... teens when I think of disordered eating but it was actually I heard you give a lecture at the hospital about and all these other times of people's lives and it makes sense like when there's such a body composition change during the midlife body image and concern for body image and even just like societal focus on youth as beauty as we're aging and you know like how could you not start to be concerned when you see those those things happen. Yeah. And so I think that you know thinking about where is the line, let's first talk a little bit about what healthy eating looks like. Because I think that the things that you described were also societal pressures right that influence people's perception of how they're doing and where their body is and what they're eating is, which is relevant When we think about, you know, those vulnerable times, I think about them as being more, the ones that I mentioned, the adolescence and then menopause, I think about those as being more biologically driven. They're made worse by the societal issues. But, you know, again, just helping people to sort of not also beat themselves up so much about like what's wrong with me that they're there does seem to be physiological things that may happen. make you more vulnerable to having eating problems, even outside of this crazy world we live in. So that's that's the first part. So then let's talk about what healthy eating, what does healthy eating look like in general, you know? And to me, say it's like monopoly. It's um a minute to learn and a lifetime to master. You know, it's like, okay. So we're talking about balanced meals, which is tough in this environment where you always are hearing people talk about, well, I shouldn't have carbohydrates, so I should eat high protein. You know, like that as if there's this right way to do it. And I think that whenever there is a right way to do it, that means there's a wrong way to do it and a way that you're screwing up. And so I think that those kinds of rules can help some people. But if there are people who are vulnerable to black and white thinking, if they're vulnerable to, if I didn't do the right thing, that means that I've screwed up and I'm terrible. You know, not having balance can be problematic. So number one is we're talking about balanced meals,
00:06:46
Speaker
from all the food groups. I mean, again, I'm not making a judgment about people who decide to eat differently for other reasons, but this is when we talk about, so we're talking about being flexible and balanced eating regularly, you know, which is again, flies in the face. You can hear in between some of the fad diets or the ways that people recommend that you eat out there. So not having long periods of time in between meals and you know, especially for people who are vulnerable to binge eating, that not eating is really a risk factor for the development of binge eating because you're freaking hungry. And so when you don't eat and then you have a chance to eat, you might overeat. And so, you know,
00:07:28
Speaker
Again, if we're talking about what healthy eating looks like, balanced meals, regular eating, and then the ability to be flexible socially, meaning, can I go to restaurants? okay Can I go to holidays? Can I eat what everybody else is eating when everybody else is eating it? And again, I'm not saying that if if you do something that's not balanced or you don't eat regularly or you're not social, that that means you have an eating disorder. But to me, those are the sort of big picture, 500 feet way to think about whether eating is, see if even when you use healthy, that means that there's unhealthy, right? Like what' whether it's working, I think about it like, is it effective or is it not effective? you know so So again, for some people, it may be effective to say, I'm eating fill in the blank. I'm eating vegan. I'm eating plant-based. I'm eating high protein. But the thing is are you flexible about it? Can you get all the nutrients that you need to eat? And can you be social even though you have these
Red Flags and Risks in Eating Habits
00:08:28
Speaker
restrictions?
00:08:28
Speaker
So that that would be the way that I would think about it. Yeah. And I guess that kind of probably would give you some red flags. Like I was going to ask you, what are some red flags that people should look out for themselves? And I guess, I mean, it sounds like one of them is if it's interfering with your social interactions or like you're noticing that you can't be flexible enough in in a social environment.
00:08:49
Speaker
I don't know. right I mean, I tend to hover. when If I'm at a party, I hover around the snack table. Yeah. That's just how I think. I hover around the dessert table. I don't want the snacks. I want the dessert. Exactly. But in all seriousness, if you're finding it you're yourself saying, I'm just not going to go to that party, right? Is that kind of what you're saying? Like, I'm not going to put myself up. I think that that's... well You know, and i I don't like to be, this is why I'm probably terrible for your podcast, because I don't like to be black i don't like to be black and white. Like there might be a so a reason why somebody would say, okay, in that situation, I'm not going to put myself in that situation. Like I think about someone who has a drinking problem. They're maybe not going to go to the holiday party where there's so much alcohol. There are times when it makes a reasonable, show it's a reasonable choice to limit yourself. That being said, let's talk about some of the other risk factors that might be
00:09:45
Speaker
ah also but besides the social piece, yeah something that we want to think about is when you are really rigid. So, you know, if you are anxious about if you're not able to get the food that you want when you want it. As I said, if you're eliminating entire food groups without medical necessity, those are sort of more rigid rules. Now, as someone who works with eating disorders, and I'd be interested to know whether you see this as a physician, I have seen people self-diagnose with celiac or with things that where they're like, well, I'm gluten intolerant.
00:10:20
Speaker
Unclear if they've actually had the medical test for that, but it can be a socially sanctioned way for people to push back on eating more flexibly. So as a doctor, if there are doctors listening, you know, asking questions about whether or not those tests have actually been done or people are self-diagnosing would be something to think about. Being more rigid, yeah being preoccupied. Let me say that's also a normal, if you're not eating a lot, if you're not eating enough, you are going to have thoughts about food and eating because your body's hardwired to make sure you don't starve. Yeah, so craving it. no
00:10:57
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. so But if you are preoccupied, not just with lots of food, body image, weight, checking your body, how you feel about yourself being tied to the number on the scale, to me, those are signs that it's too far. Yeah. Got you. And so what would you say about all of these tracking apps? Like, I know there's a lot of ways that even when people sign up for programs or they're trying to pay attention to their macronutrients, or their protein intake, they're using these tracking apps and tracking everything. So would that be potentially dangerous for someone who is maybe prone to disordered eating? Yeah. So i think Rachel, you know,
00:11:37
Speaker
it's it's so complicated. So those apps actually are really helpful for people who aren't aware of what they're eating and when they're eating it. So I'm not anti-tracking. And in fact, one of the things that I often recommend to people as part of the eating disorder treatment is tracking your eating and your emotions so that we can get a sense about how they're tied together. So tracking in and of itself isn't a problem. The problem becomes when.
00:12:04
Speaker
you're over-focused on it. It's no longer a tool, you know, it's a, it's a life stance, right? Like, it's like, I can't put that in my mouth because now I have to write it down or I'm, you know, feeling really bad about myself, or I think I'm being bad. Whenever that moralization comes in, like, oh, I ate more, I'm bad. You know, those are signs that the relationship is moving in an unhealthy direction. Yeah. That's really interesting. What would you say for women who experienced disordered eating, whether it was, I guess, anorexia, bulimia, et cetera, in earlier times of their life, are they at higher risk through their
Identifying and Discussing Eating Disorders
00:12:40
Speaker
midlife? Yeah, they are. And I think that one of the things that will be really important
00:12:46
Speaker
for those people to do is be aware that this is going to be a vulnerable time, not not the least of which is the body changes that happen that are now outside of your control. I i see a lot of women who felt like they were stable-ish, you know, around their eating and their relationship with their body. And then when menopause hits, you know, it's like i I've been doing the same thing and now my body is changing and i feel out of control because this was working for me and now it's no longer working for me. So being aware also that we know that this is a more vulnerable time and being aware that it's probably a good time to get some extra help if you haven't been doing that because you've been stable, because it is it is a more vulnerable time for sure.
00:13:28
Speaker
And how would someone know, I guess, if they had not experienced that in their past, it's starting to creep in, how would they um get that insight that this is potentially a disorder that they're experiencing? not What is the line between? Well, you know, like part part of the problem is, you know, if you think about eating, yeah we all have to eat and we all have a body and a lot of it is in your own head. and so it is not uncommon for people to not realize there's a problem with
00:13:58
Speaker
until someone says, like their partner says, their family member says, hey, what's happening? Now, in my experience, people are much more comfortable saying something to someone who's lost weight, not to someone who's gained significant amount of weight, unless they see behaviors like missing food, like, you know, sort of on the binging end of the continuum. And there's so much shame associated with it, right? So like, I would say that if you feel like it is something that you feel like you wonder, has this kind of gone too far? you know, get a consultation with your doctor and talk it through. or and if not your doctor, someone that you feel whose opinion you trust and get a little bit of objective feedback about this is what I'm doing. What do you think? Now, as I say that out loud, you know, people tend to
00:14:49
Speaker
socialize and pick as friends, people who have similar eating patterns actually, which I find fascinating. oh And so you might ask friends, like yeah you have to be careful about who you ask because they may have their own eating issues as well. That's so interesting. ah oh my gosh. Okay. Now I'm trying to think. Yeah. Right. What does that mean? yeah Making it more complicated. No, but oh but that what it is that's why it is complicated because it's complicated. Yeah, exactly. Gosh, it is just a hard thing because i I see women every day and I've probably said this, you know, in each one of these podcasts since the new year is that I see women every day who are just frustrated Because kind of like what you said, what they were doing before is no longer working.
00:15:30
Speaker
And when I'm talking to them, I'm very rarely suspecting an eating disorder because i I hear it often enough that I see that, you know, there's those metabolic changes that are challenging for them to address and and get through. But I also have some patients who I'm like, I really don't see... your physical problem. Like they are not overweight. They are kind of trying to show me where they are gaining weight and I don't see it, but I don't want to invalidate their situation.
00:16:01
Speaker
and so I don't know. I don't know my question is. No, no, no. But let me say this. I think as a doctor, I think you're in a ah gynecologist is in a very difficult spot because maybe you know it is often, you know, my husband's a physician, as you know, and there are times where he comes home and when he tells me a story, obviously, but de-identified. And I'm like, no, that person has an eating disorder. And he's like, really? But they're not overweight or they're not underweight. You know like we sometimes think we use the eyeball test as a way for us to know. But I think that there's, you know, this notion of preoccupation with changes. And even if there was a change that you saw, does that mean that there is or is not an eating disorder? Yeah, you know, like, and if you only have 15 minutes, one of the things that I often recommend to people who work in primary care is to use a screener tool called the SCOF. It was designed specifically to be used in primary care. And it's like a five item questionnaire. If you score two or more, then probably someone should do follow-up about that. Because I think to rely on the 10 minutes you've got, you're going to miss a lot is my guess.
00:17:07
Speaker
And I guess that is the the other question of how to broach it. like i'm I'm also thinking of listeners who maybe have a friend or a family member that they're worried about. How do they bring this up?
Types of Eating Disorders Explained
00:17:18
Speaker
How do they even assess even for as an observer, whether there's a problem or not. Do you have any advice about that? No, absolutely. I think the first is never, ever, ever, ever do that conversation during a meal because that will only end in disaster because you figure if you're right, it's during a time that someone's pretty vulnerable. If you're wrong, you're going to ruin your dinner. So I think that I would go with outside of a meal
00:17:46
Speaker
saying to someone and in a very nonjudgmental, observ say, observe and describe like just the facts, Hey, I've noticed this. And I'm wondering if you noticed it too. And it makes me a little worried. Can we talk about it?
00:17:59
Speaker
Like that's the kind of language where you want to be able to ask someone. So never do it while there's eating happening and to just be nonjudgmental and observe. And really your goal is to ask questions and see if you can get on the same page with the other person about,
00:18:15
Speaker
what you're seeing and whether or not it's problematic. Now I will tell you that those conversations are often really, really hard. It's very rare that someone says, Oh, thank you so much for bringing that up. No, honestly, it's just, it's tough. There's a lot of shame and there's a lot of hiding that usually goes with it, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't ask because I think that people need to know people who have eating disorders can get in their own idiosyncratic patterns and not realize that it's happening. And so someone asking is actually an important step.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And I probably should have started off with this, but can we back up a little bit? Can you tell us the some basic types of eating disorders? Because I think I have some ideas, of course, but maybe not everybody knows of of all of them. So I'd love Yeah. Just have some basics there. Yeah.
00:19:03
Speaker
I think there's there's a lot that I don't know. Well, you know, you're, you're in good company, right? This is, everybody has their expertise and I'm not even going to bother with labels really, because I'm not sure the labels are that important and can be confusing, but there are the eating disorder where someone is not eating adequately.
00:19:20
Speaker
and usually leads to significant weight loss. And we're talking about adults because when we talk about kids, it's a completely different set of issues because there's growth and change. And so that's another conversation, but issues where someone is not eating enough,
00:19:35
Speaker
for their body and their weight goes down. You don't have to be significantly thin to have that eating disorder. You just have to not be eating adequately and be pretty rigid and have, you know, sort of the sun rise and set on what happens at the scale. That's sort of the overall, that's more the more restrictive illness. okay Then we have the binging problem where somebody starts to eat and can't stop and feels out of control. And that can either be followed by purging, some sort of purging, whether that be vomiting, laxatives, diuretics, diet pills, exercise or not.
00:20:12
Speaker
So the binging and out of control eating followed by compensation or not followed by compensation. And in that restrictive problem that I described, some of those people also have binging and or binging and purging. Right.
00:20:26
Speaker
So, I mean, if you think about when you first asked me about how do we know when it's turned into a problem, you know, the notion of these are people in whatever form are not eating balanced. They're either eating not enough or they're maybe eating not enough and then sometimes eating more than they want or, you know, that is reasonable for their body and out of control. Right. And there's often problems with sort of the frequency of eating, either I'm not eating frequently or I'm eating all the time. And then there's the the final eating disorder, which is something that I think has not been as well understood up until like the last 10 years is a problem of
00:21:07
Speaker
people worrying about if I eat this, it's going to make me feel weird. It's less about body image because the other the other ones are more about body image, but this one, it's called avoidant restrictive food intake disorder, which is a complicated to name, ARTHEN. But there are probably adults that you'll see who I only eat white foods. I don't like the texture of that.
00:21:27
Speaker
The temperature is a problem and it really impacts both nutrition and sociability. oh So those are That's right you know the the gist of eating disorders.
00:21:38
Speaker
And where does exercise fit in? I remember this was a while back. I was in residency and I was at a gym and I just remember seeing a woman that was there, no matter what time or what day I was there, she was on the treadmill and she looked like she was a cancer patient, right? Like she looked and not well, terrifyingly thin. And I, I mean, I don't, have no idea what kind of diagnosis she had, but I felt like the exercise was part of that. And You see that, right? Well, I think that exercise, you we get back to balance, eating and moving your body can fall into the same sort sort of continuum. So we see people who exercise compulsively fitting in with the not eating enough for your body or using exercise as a way to compensate for eating. So we see it on that end of the continuum, but we also see sort of a lack of moving your body and no exercise on the other end of the continuum as well. So when we talk about exercise, when we talk about sort of a sort of balanced lifestyle, we're talking about balance both with food and with
Global Perspectives on Eating Disorders
00:22:45
Speaker
activity.
00:22:45
Speaker
Right. That makes sense. And do you see these things all over the world? Is this like an American film? Is this an international but I know you are very well-traveled and you've done work all over. So I'm assuming it's not just here, but. Well, you know, and there's a new there's a nuance, right? There's, yeah so obviously in Western cultures, we have more eating disorders. so like The more Westernized, the more Westernized, the more likely to have eating disorders. That being said, there is also some,
00:23:13
Speaker
research now around food insecurity and the relationship between food insecurity and binge eating. So i'm I'm equating food insecurity with non-Western, which is not always fair, right? So it's more of an SES issue. But there certainly is a relationship between the more Westernized you are where you're impacted by Western culture and expectations of beauty, standards, and access to food. Really makes things complicated. That's exactly what I was thinking. So thinking my time in sub-Saharan Africa where there's not always readily access to food and but multiple types of food and nutrient rich food. I'm thinking like, I don't know that I really ever saw disordered eating there. Not intentional, right? I saw definitely malnutrition, yeah but not people that were intentionally restricting.
00:23:57
Speaker
Not only restricting it, but you may see the binging end because when you don't get access to food and you finally do, there And this makes sense evolutionarily, right? Like if people are if you're in a place where there's not enough nutrition and you finally get access to nutrition, it is not uncommon for people to binge eat. Now, and this is the problem with psychology, right? Versus medicine. In psychology, there is never one factor usually that influence something. It's always multi-determined. And so on some level, you know, binging might be a normal response to- right
00:24:28
Speaker
which treated indicate to eat it The question is how you feel about it after and how you feel about yourself afterwards. That's part of where for the binging behavior in that environment where you would decide whether or not it's a problem.
00:24:41
Speaker
That's so interesting interesting. Complicated. Okay. So you do see it outside of the U.S., but it sounds like Western cultures. you think Is the U.S. even more so than other places like in Europe or just about the same? you know It's a good question. I don't know if I know the data on US versus Europe, but they're pretty similar. They're pretty similar.
00:25:00
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. So interesting. And I'm thinking, we the only species that has this problem? like ah there are other This is also a women's issue of too, right? like to are little but No, listen, men have... Absolutely men get ADN disorders. But you know there are there are different factors that are influencing men in terms of social pressures and those pieces, and obviously hormonal changes, those are different for men. But there are ways in which the notion of the impact of wanting to look a certain way, that problem that I described to you earlier that we call ARFID is not about eating in a certain way to impact
Health Beyond Weight
00:25:42
Speaker
your body. The other eating disorders often have that component to it. Like i either it's the initiation of it, or it's part of the maintaining factors. Like I want to eat like this so that I can have this outcome. That was sort of why when we were first starting, we first started our conversation and we were talking about, you know, helping women
00:26:01
Speaker
during menopause, yeah I think that part of it is really trying to help as a public service announcement, all of us in the medical field, stepping back from this notion of it's about your weight, because your weight is only one aspect of your health. It's a proxy for a lot of things, but it is not the sole indicator of how well you're doing. And unfortunately, it is the one thing that is publicized so much. And and doctors can end up overly focusing on it as well. And it can give people the false sense that that's the only thing that's important because your body does change. You get older, stuff doesn't look the same. Like that's evolutionarily normal. Exactly.
00:26:44
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Okay. So I guess just to not leave people bewildered, How do you recommend that someone get help? And how do you recommend people just sort of maintain, maybe they're not at a time where they are experiencing disordered eating. but we want to maintain a healthy relationship with food. I guess in both of those things, if someone thinks that they have a problem, what should they do? And then if they don't have a problem, how do we maintain a healthy relationship with our food?
00:27:12
Speaker
Yeah. So gosh, I mean, we live in this culture. It is so difficult when there are foods that are actually programmed to make us overeat them. You know, like there are food scientists working to try to figure out Once you start eating this piece of food, you can never stop until the bag is done. yeah it yeah It does make it complicated.
00:27:32
Speaker
I think that, you know, first I would say public health service announcement number two, thinking about balance, yeah thinking about finding a way to be able to eat, to nourish yourself, to give you enough energy, to do the things you want to do and to be able to think clearly and move well and have energy And that may or may not be the way that you eat to be able to look the way that you want to look. And I think it's finding that that where is that tradeoff. And so when people struggle with that, I think it often is helpful to talk to someone who really knows the science to help them find the sweet spot. Because I think there's so much information out there. It's overwhelming. Like, I don't even know how to tell someone, oh, go online and just find this. Like, oh, there's so much.
00:28:20
Speaker
But talk to somebody who's an expert to help. I mean, sometimes I think it can only, it can take like one to three sessions of, all right, let's talk this through. Let's track what you're eating. Let's figure out where we are. And then let's decide what the next steps are. But I think it starts with understanding, do I have a balanced relationship with food, eating, my body, and activity?
Balancing Nutrition and Obsession
00:28:43
Speaker
yeah And if you don't, getting some consultations. And I think if you agree with this, then the one take home message I would say is if it's preoccupying your mind, that is the first sign that maybe it's not a balanced relationship. Of course, I know people are really like people say they it's a full time job to make sure they're getting enough protein in their midlife, right? Like they're thinking about protein, but I would say it's it's not like that. It's more of if it's occupying your your regular, otherwise free time and and mind that would be spent doing any anything. i think the thing I've been refraining from saying is that when people are feeling obsessive about something, but that's the thing. I feel like everywhere I look, online, on Instagram, everywhere, it's all like kind of an obsession.
00:29:28
Speaker
But I think the word obsession can be an indicator that you've gone too far, right? We we started with preoccupied. Preoccupied is sort of a step before obsessed, right? Like I'm thinking about it some and it's in my mind. Obsessed means I'm not able to think about anything else. And if you are obsessed, again, I'm not i'm not trying to paint a picture that that means you have an eating disorder. But if you're obsessed about anything, that's not balanced, right? So i would like to recommend that if you're finding that you're in that camp, that you take a pause, take a step back and reevaluate like, huh, if I'm this over focused on it, is that actually in my best interest or have I crossed the line? Yeah.
00:30:08
Speaker
Okay. All right. So then I won't, I won't refrain from saying that word. No, think that was a good word. appreciate that a lot. Yeah, absolutely. Because if it's on your mind all the time, then it's hard to read. It's hard to engage in a conversation. But I also, have to say, this might be a little controversial, I know people say it's a full-time job to get enough protein, but perhaps if it's a full-time job, maybe it's okay if you don't get quite enough protein and find balance in your life rather than be like, I have to do this or, you know, right, right, right, right. Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much. This has been extremely helpful. And I think brings to light an issue that many people probably don't even know an issue or risk. And just really felt like it was important to talk about this while talking about exercise, nutrition, and all these other things so that, know, I'm not encouraging people to get into unhealthy situation a dangerous situation for them.
00:31:02
Speaker
No, I appreciate that you're willing to bring this in because I think it is often the case that people are just focusing on the, well, okay, diet and exercise and not paying attention to the emotional piece and the fact that for some people it can be risky. So I really appreciate your asking me. Yeah, absolutely. And but we'll put all of the information that you recommend for people to find if they need local resources or if they feel like they really, you know, they need to get in with someone. We want to make sure that we're not leaving you stranded and that anyone listening out there who feels like they might need help knows where to go for that. So... Thanks so much, Lucene. I really appreciate you. Pleasure. Thanks, Rachel.
00:31:36
Speaker
Great to talk.