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1. Exercise and Nutrition through Perimenopause & Menopause with Jody Trostler
199 Plays2 months ago
Many women reach midlife feeling frustrated that what once worked no longer does. Despite exercising regularly and eating “healthy,” they experience weight gain, fatigue, injuries, and stalled progress.
Host Dr. Rachel Pope is joined by Jody Trostler, certified menopause fitness and health coach, master health coach, and personal trainer, to discuss how hormonal shifts change the body’s response to exercise and nutrition — and what women can do now to support their health, strength, and metabolism.
Why the Midlife Body Changes
Jody explains that the perimenopausal transition brings significant metabolic and hormonal shifts that affect muscle, fat distribution, recovery, and energy balance. Many women unknowingly enter a state of low energy availability, meaning they are under-fueling relative to their activity and stress levels.
Common consequences include:
- Increased injuries and poor recovery
- Fatigue and brain fog
- Stubborn midsection weight gain
- Slowed metabolism
Even women who exercise frequently and eat “clean” are often impacted.
From Cardio to Strength & Fueling
Jody emphasizes that muscle becomes a critical protective organ during midlife. As estrogen declines, women naturally lose muscle unless they actively work to preserve it. Without strength training, this contributes to metabolic slowdown, fat gain, and loss of functional ability.
Key strategies discussed include:
- Prioritizing strength training over excessive cardio
- Supporting workouts with adequate protein and overall fuel
- Reducing chronic physical stress and improving recovery
- Starting gradually with body-weight training for beginners
The focus shifts from weight loss to building strength, metabolic health, and long-term independence.
Jody and Rachel remind listeners that menopause is not a failure of the body, but a transition into a new phase that requires new strategies — ones that support resilience, function, and lifelong health.
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Transcript
Challenges of Weight Gain During Menopause
00:00:00
Speaker
One thing I hear from my patients on a regular basis is that they can't seem to lose weight during perimenopause and menopause. They might be people who eat healthy, who exercise regularly, and they tell me they haven't changed anything from their regular habits, and yet they're starting to gain weight. Or they gained weight and they can't seem to get it off.
00:00:19
Speaker
They are frustrated because of the work that they're putting in, and they start to feel demoralized because they don't like the way their body feels or looks.
Meet Jodi Trussler: Menopause Fitness Expert
00:00:29
Speaker
That's the reason I have Jodi Trussler on today. She's a personal trainer. She's a certified group fitness instructor, and she is an expert in menopause health and nutrition.
00:00:39
Speaker
She has her own program that's focused on helping women in perimenopause and menopause get to their best physical self. She has so many expertise in menopause. certifications, all of this experience you can see on her website at justtrain.net. But I can't wait to talk to her today about how to either start exercising for the first time or to adjust the way that you're exercising during perimenopause and menopause. So Jodi, I know you have so much experience and expertise. Can you just kind of explain to our listeners in a nutshell, what is it that you do?
00:01:12
Speaker
I know you've done different things in the past, but what are you doing now as well?
Ignite Her 45 Program Overview
00:01:16
Speaker
Sure. So currently work individually one-on-one with all of my clients. I have a program called Ignite Her 45, and it is, you don't have to be 45 to join it, but it's the majority of the women who I work with are in their mid forties and up. So you can be 44, 43. But basically, I'm working with women who are going through the hormone transition or beyond the hormone transition. So perimenopause through postmenopause, helping support them with structured fitness programs that will work for them. And again, these are
00:01:54
Speaker
totally customized for each individual woman. So I have some people who are coming in with no fitness experience or strength training experience to women who are triathletes. So really the full gamut. And we
Holistic Approach to Menopause Health
00:02:08
Speaker
look at the whole body. So we're looking holistically at Deep Health, um also a certified master health coach in addition to a certified menopause fitness and health coach. So we're not just looking at the fitness and nutrition. We're looking at everything that's going on on the daily, whether it's community, whether it's family support, whether it's sleep, stress, really all of the components of health.
00:02:33
Speaker
Well, because you can't really get away without addressing all of those things anymore, right? I feel like, you know, in my younger years, maybe I didn't worry so much about nutrition. I just made sure to get my exercise and i didn't notice any changes to my body, but we no longer have that luxury our forties and beyond. So it's vital that all of those points are addressed, but that's so great. How did you get to do all of that, right? That's very comprehensive. How did you get that expertise? Like what is your your background there?
Jodi's Personal Journey to Expertise
00:03:05
Speaker
Well, really around 2019, late 2019 is when I was pretty much a late bloomer in terms of my experience with perimenopause and felt that I had not been well guided through the process.
00:03:20
Speaker
Just the information that's out there now was not available. back then, even in terms of so many doctors have gone back and really started to look at menopause health. And many of them back then were not doing that. And because it just, you know, as you know, isn't taught in med school. So I started doing a lot of research myself. And when I noticed some of these changes were going on, I was getting injured all the time. i was working out very intensely at that time. i was doing a lot of obstacle course racing, very intense training, had started CrossFit.
00:03:54
Speaker
I dabble in a lot of different things, but I had noticed, as you just said, that my nutrition hadn't changed, but my fitness had become much more intense. The brain fog got pretty bad. And really not until I had my first hot flash did I stop and say, hey, you know something's going on here like this.
00:04:15
Speaker
So yeah. So that was really how my journey started was with my own personal experience. Yeah. be a man son That makes sense. And you mentioned like nutrition as well. You said something about Precision Nutrition. Can you tell us what
Nutrition Education and Precision Nutrition
00:04:28
Speaker
that is? So Precision Nutrition is a huge company that provides a lot of different certifications, but the one they're most well known for is their nutrition programs, but they also have a level two master health coaching program. um So When I really started to take this deep dive into learning about what was going on with my body, then realizing how many other women have no idea what's going on with their body. The first thing I did was I took Stacey Sims. At the time, it was called Menopause for Athletes, and now I think it's called 2.0. But it was really about active women going through the menopause transition. And she has a few books that I just like devoured the content on. And that's Well, my first program was really based on a lot of the content that I had learned studying with her. And then from there, I am also a personal trainer and I do still see some clients in person. And I realized that that whole nutrition component was really missing. That
00:05:25
Speaker
My clients who I see once or twice a week could gain so much more progress, so much faster if we really were to dive into nutrition and all the other deep health. So I felt that it was really important to educate myself on how to help my clients on a deeper level. And that's where the Level 2 Master Health Coaching Program came in.
00:05:46
Speaker
Oh, that's really cool. Okay. So I was mentioning in the introduction that I generally see two types of women in perimenopause and menopause who ask me about weight gain and what they can do. And I'm totally inadequate to be able to help them as a gynecologist, right? Like I can give them a few pointers here or there, but really it is, it's beyond my area of expertise. And so I wanted to kind
Adapting Fitness and Nutrition in Menopause
00:06:08
Speaker
of pick your brain. So for the woman that comes in to see me, who says like, I exercise five times a week. I'm I always have, i make it a priority. I eat healthy, you know, to the point of like eating salads and not indulging in sweets or fried foods and things like that, but they still can't get rid of that midsection during menopause.
00:06:31
Speaker
How do you help women that are, or at least say they're telling me that they're already active, they're doing the right things. How do you help women like that? How do you get them started in the in the right direction? Yes, that's very, very common because i feel like The salad in general is like an American thing, right? Because all of these diets are like stem from our culture and we are not rabbits. So eating healthy, like when someone tells me that they eat healthy or they eat clean, like it's kind of a blanketed statement. Like what does that mean? Because what it means to one person is going to mean something very different to another. And eating healthy is really about making sure that you are getting in all your macronutrients. Most women are underfed. And along my journey, that was one of the things that I realized is one of the reasons that I was getting injured and wasn't really making progress in my own. It was because, again, I was eating the same as I always had, but my body was in this new stage of life, right? It's like a totally new body. So we need to get to know her and we need to work with this new body and change what we're doing with our changing physiology.
00:07:43
Speaker
So- I really take a deep dive into yeah like, what does that really mean? Like in your mind, eating healthy and figure out what's missing. And I think of the way i work with my clients is really an additive process. Like what's missing? What can we add? And that's not necessarily time on the treadmill, but what can we add in terms of nutrition usually to help support the activity? Because a lot of women who are used to working out five days a week, I don't want to take that away from them. I mean, I work out five to six days a week, but is how can we tweak things so that you're not in this state of what we call LEA, L-E-A, low energy availability, where your body is just either plateauing or fighting against itself. And then that's a lot of times when
00:08:25
Speaker
Someone who might be trying to lose weight or someone who's just trying to stabilize their weight notices some weight gain because your hormones are different. It's a different body. So figuring out- their body has kind of like, they've conditioned their body to exercise five days a week, but something else has changed physiologically that is making that sort of exercise no longer as
Importance of Strength Training
00:08:48
Speaker
effective. Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah. And you know, it's really stress.
00:08:53
Speaker
And when we talk about stress, and we're not just talking about mental stress. We're talking about physical stress. We're talking about sleep because if your sleep is, if you're not sleeping or you're sleeping and you're not sleeping soundly, that is the time where your body's recovering. Your nutrition is how you're helping your body recover. So it's really looking at the full picture of what's going on in terms of the stress that your body's under and how to manage that better.
00:09:18
Speaker
Okay. And the type of exercise, like, do you, I'm assuming you have strong feelings about the type of exercise women in perimenopause and menopause should be doing. Like if they're on the treadmill five days a week, is that the right thing? Or how do you, like, what's your philosophy there? Again, it's, I try not to take away what my clients love. But if you're on the treadmill five days a week, because you're looking at your Garmin or your Apple Watch and trying to just like burn as many calories as you can while you're exercising, that's not what helps us anymore. So it's really about having this metabolically sound body that's going to help burn off calories, energy, and build muscle at rest.
00:10:03
Speaker
So yes, movement is very important. Your movement throughout the day versus that one hour that you're spending like running on the treadmill. Yeah. How many of us are sitting, right? Yeah. all night Or spin class or whatever. So our muscle is what's our metabolic powerhouse. And this is the time we are really, if you are not fighting for your muscle, you are losing your muscle once that hormone transition begins. And so we really need to focus on strength training much more and maintaining building our muscle so that you can do 30 minute workout five days a week instead of a 60 minute workout five days a week. And look at all the time you're saving, A, so it's much more efficient. yeah And b you are not just
00:10:49
Speaker
burning away all of your energy. So just finding a program that's more efficient. Okay, that makes sense. And this is the way I kind of explain it to people. and please correct me if I'm wrong. But I usually tell people, you know, your muscle burns fat. And if we're losing our lean muscle and perimenopause and menopause, it's not going to burn the surrounding fat as much. So things become soft. And so we have to kind of dive into that, the strength training and maintaining that muscle, whether that's through our nutrients that we're we're getting the protein, so feed the muscle, whether it's the specific type of resistance or strength training to maintain that muscle, or maybe even using testosterone, right? Like I'm a big proponent for testosterone for sexual desire. And I think that we're only going to learn more and more about how testosterone benefits women for lean muscle, but correct. Correct me if you think that's not what I used should be telling people. Because again, it's out of my scope as a gynecologist. But you know, this is what my patients are asking me about, because it's their real life every day. Yeah, well, I mean, it's without getting too sciency. I think that's good. I mean, you know, you don't want to spit too much at your patients. But
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, like I said, muscle is your metabolic powerhouse. And the more of it you have, the more efficiently your body runs. And it's also a protector. So we're not talking about GLP ones or weight loss or anything like that. But you know, there's just a big drive towards being skinny again in our culture. And unfortunately, it's become a very socially, i don't know, not acceptable, but kind of stigmatized or something.
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, well, If you have a group of women and the majority of that group is all of a sudden like losing weight and then other people in that group are going to want to lose weight too. This is what I see. like often times And I mean, I work with clients who are talking about this all the time. Like all my friends are taking GLP-1 and they're just losing weight and I don't want to go on one, and but I'm not getting, you know,
00:12:46
Speaker
not really we ask them So um what's really important to understand is that when any kind of weight loss, whether it's on a GLP-1 or not, I mean, that kind of weight loss, you're a little bit more at risk because usually you're taking off the weight much faster. But any kind of weight loss, you need to be aware that you are first going to lose muscle, especially any kind of quick weight loss. So you want to make sure that you are really working and building and maintaining that strength training while you're on your weight loss journey. Because when you hit your goal, if you don't have that metabolism working for you, what's going to happen?
00:13:26
Speaker
all that weight's going to come back. Right. Right. And that is the one thing with, yeah again, not my area of expertise, but when people ask me about GLP ones, I'm not against them, but I do worry about the muscle wasting for that exact reason that you mentioned.
Concerns About Muscle Wasting and Weight Loss
00:13:39
Speaker
If we're trying to maintain lean muscle and we're fighting the uphill battle and perimenopause and menopause to keep muscle, then I don't want to you know make it worse by adding in something that's going to cause muscle wasting. Oh, it's tricky. Yeah.
00:13:52
Speaker
Yeah. And it makes us more fragile. you know You're much more fragile if you're skinny. That's true. You look at the older population, someone in their 70s or 80s or even 90s who's got a little extra padding is going to be more healthier in the long run because God forbid they trip and fall, they're going to be less likely to hurt themselves than someone who's skinny and frail. So it's the same thing. you know It's just putting your body You've to strong, strong and healthy, not skinny. Right. and
00:14:23
Speaker
what do you say for the women? You know, this is the other half of my population who've never exercised before, never worked out, just didn't, you know, didn't do sport when they were younger, didn't really enjoy it or find any sort of activity that they liked. And now they're noticing that they need to do something for their health. And I find it even harder with them to really help direct them of how to get started. Do you have some sort of like entry, entry she level that you recommend to people? Or what do you do in those situations? Yeah, I do have clients who fit that category. You know, I never had to work out because I never had to worry about it. I never had to worry about my weight. And all of a sudden, you know, I'm at midlife and I've gained 30 pounds. And so yes, It's baby steps.
00:15:09
Speaker
And really most of my clients in that scenario who ah also don't want to go to a gym, like they don't feel comfortable working the out around other people. So most of my clients actually are working out at home with very little equipment. And then as they get stronger, they just buy more equipment, but that makes them feel a little less intimidated. And also,
00:15:31
Speaker
There's so much you can do with body weight exercise. So someone who's just starting out, you need to really feel your muscles before you start adding in dumbbells or kettlebells or or any other equipment. Really understanding the mechanics of your body and the way I equate it, like feeling your muscles growing, building from the inside out. Like you're not all of a sudden a month and going to like have biceps all of a sudden. It takes some time. And your muscle growth is going to build from the inside out. It's like getting that core strength. It's not just about abdominal core strength, but every muscle you have has a core. And so building that core from the inside out, just step by step, I take my clients just one step at a time. And so, you know, like I like that idea, right? If you haven't lifted any weights before, don't try lifting weights first, right? Like start with the body resistance exercise. you do virtual consulting to write or virtual training for people who don't live locally to us in Cleveland. But I don't know if there's information on YouTube or things that people could start where they just kind of are trying things out. I use that Peloton app. I love that app because there's all of these options for a 20 minute workout, 10 minute workout, but they do have a whole section that's basically like body resistance training or things where we really don't need any equipment. because I don't have a lot of space for a home gym. We don't have a lot of stuff and space. It's all taken over by kids things. Yeah. You don't need a lot of space. I mean, you really don't. You don't, you don't need a lot of space and you don't need a lot of equipment.
00:17:07
Speaker
I mean, there's some people that I know who do just a ton of body weight. A push-up is hard. Yes. Right? I agree. So it's it's not easy. So a push-up is your body weight. So for instance, in a push-up for my clients who aren't able to do like a traditional push-up, I have them using the stairs. So start on your sixth step up.
00:17:28
Speaker
Oh, okay. You know, for a week or two, and then move your your way down the steps. to five to four until finally you can support your own body weight. So it's just, it has to be gradual. And at this stage, the biggest recommendation that I give anyone is patience. Be patient because it takes time. And if you're just starting your strength training journey, it's going to take longer than it might have taken in your twenties and thirties because of our hormones, but it's never too late.
00:18:00
Speaker
Never too late. Never too late to start.
The Myth of Bulking Up During Strength Training
00:18:02
Speaker
Do you have clients who ask you or they express worry that they might bulk up too much or they don't want to have too much obvious muscle? People have said that to me. I'm like, don't worry. We're fighting an uphill battle here. You're not going to get bulky. Like where we you're going to work so hard just to maintain your muscle. But I don't know if that's true. or Maybe some people can actually bulk up. But how do you handle those concerns? I mean, I have gotten comments like that and I handle it pretty much how you just said. You're not going to bulk up. You're going to firm up. You're going to tone up. This is about swapping out muscle for fat. You know, you're not Olympic bodybuilding here. You're not. So yeah, I just try to ease away from that whole concept. You know, you see on social media, all of these like influencers, right? who I mean, I love their bodies, but for some people it might
00:18:54
Speaker
not be appealing, right? To see all that muscle. And those people are training very specifically. And a lot of them are training for bodybuilding, which is a completely different animal. We're training for life.
00:19:07
Speaker
We're training for sustainability. We're training for lifetime habits that I'm trying to teach my clients so that you have, it it's a skill, right?
Training for Independence in Later Life
00:19:18
Speaker
It's a skill that you can take with you throughout your life and will not just help you feel better and look better, but live a longer, healthier life and have a healthier metabolic function.
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah. i I don't remember if this was you who said it, but I think it was at one of our retreats where we were talking about how difficult it becomes for seniors to go from like sitting to standing positions when they don't have their quadriceps sort of muscles. And like, that's one of the first things that tends to go for people that they just can't stand up. And so even thinking of how you want to maintain your muscle or create muscles so that you can function,
00:20:00
Speaker
Exactly. you can walk, right? And so that you can stand. That's what made me think of when you said, you know, building our muscle for sustainability. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I talk all the time with my clients, especially my older clients, like what happens when you fall down?
00:20:16
Speaker
are you going be able to get back up? Like you fall down in the street and there's a car coming? Like you need to be able to get back up and get back up quickly. Right? So we're practicing that, right? We're practicing like a lunge.
00:20:29
Speaker
is kind of, is a, you're down on the ground, you're going to need a lunge or a walkout or an inchworm or one of those movements to get your ass up quickly before that car gets too close, right? If no one's with you to pull you up. So it's ah a sense of independence that is really, really important with age. I've had women in my programs, not even expecting, but noticing that, oh my gosh, I could pick up the water you know dispenser jug and replace it and didn't have to wait for my husband to come home and do it for me. Or I could move my dining room table to set, you know, when I was having company come over where I would used to have to have my husband and my son move it. Or I could lift that box up onto the shelf that I used to have to ask someone else to do for me. So these are everyday functional, like sense of independence, right?
00:21:22
Speaker
Yeah, and we don't think about it until you can't do it, right? It's not it's not at the forefront of my mind, at least. You know, maintaining health just to be able to do that sort of stuff um or those things.
Increasing Protein Intake for Health
00:21:32
Speaker
Just to kind of go back to the nutrition point before we wrap up, I wanted to get some more specifics from you because I think this is also hard for women. You mentioned social media and you see people say like, eat more protein, eat more fiber. Like this is what you have to do for your body. But then I find women say like, I don't even know how to do that or what I'm supposed to be doing. How do you guide them to actually make something like that practical?
00:21:56
Speaker
Simple, basic, and very small action steps. So, you know, I've had clients who, and you don't know what you don't know. Like they don't come to me in most cases, knowing that they're underfed or knowing that they're not eating enough protein or knowing that their diet is not, even if they if it's clean, they're not eating sugar and they think of it as healthy because they're not eating a lot.
00:22:30
Speaker
But adding more variety really is really important. So thinking like the rainbow when it comes to food. Breakfast, That's a struggle for a lot of people because even myself for years, I never ate breakfast. And now I would die if I didn't have breakfast. I mean, I need breakfast in the morning. But getting people, especially women, to understand that like intermittent fasting is not for us during this time.
00:22:55
Speaker
And some people swear by it, but you have to kind of decide, well, is your activity and building muscle, metabolic function more important or is being skinny?
00:23:09
Speaker
Right. Yeah. the Weight loss. It's really interesting to me. And I, it's changed my mind completely because I've never been able to understand how someone could intermittently fast. Like I accidentally intermittently fast at work sometimes, but I'm not happy about it. Like I need, I need to eat and I'm not somebody who enjoys fasting. I also wake up to have breakfast, but someone said, yeah, of course, intermittent fasting works for some people because it's another way to have a calorie deficit. Correct. Yeah.
00:23:35
Speaker
Yeah. Oh yeah, that's true. That's why maybe some people swear by it. Yeah. But breakfast is a big deal. I mean, I grew up eating cereal every morning. Right. And that's at some point has caught up with me. I'll speak for myself. And so I've had to figure out how to get protein into my breakfast meal so that I'm starting off with some fuel.
00:23:54
Speaker
We just start out with each meal, having protein is the star of every meal. So building each meal, breakfast, lunch, and dinner around that protein.
00:24:06
Speaker
And it doesn't have to be fancy. but And it doesn't have to be meat either, right? because No, it doesn't. I mean, there's many there's many plant-based protein sources. It's going to be much easier to get your protein macros in if you are a meat eater, but fish, even like tuna fish, canned fish, canned chicken. I mean, it's all it's all fine. Edamame, lentils, fiber and protein source, eggs. So there's so many. Nuts have a little bit of protein, but when you're looking at like macronutrient content, it's more of a healthy fat. So a lot of people say, well, I eat peanut butter every day and I eat like two handfuls of nuts every day. Well, when you look at the macronutrient content and the calorie content, it's a lot of fat and a lot of calories right so
00:24:50
Speaker
For weight loss, you want to look at your leaner cuts of meat. You want to look at your leaner choices, but also things that are going to allow for that protein. And then the other thing is for someone who we are much more resistant to glucose also during this time of
Managing Glucose Sensitivity with Diet
00:25:06
Speaker
life. And so this is something that I learned from Gretchen Spetsch.
00:25:10
Speaker
who's a yeah local dietitian, her term is no naked carbs. So when you're having a carbohydrate, make sure you're having it with a healthy fat or a protein.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that helps your body have a better response to the glucose. Wow, cool. that isn't it yeah I'll tell you my cheat sheet because, you know, I feel like I'm learning how when to get help from artificial intelligence.
AI-Driven Meal Planning for Protein
00:25:34
Speaker
And I know there's lots of negatives about You to take everything with a grain of salt and of course, try not to abuse it because of the environmental effects. But I have used AI to help me with meal planning to try to get higher protein content in my meals. And it suggests a breakfast that now like I kind of do every morning. I'll just throw it out to you. You tell me what you think. about it because i haven't actually verified that this is a good thing to do. But I get like a couple scoops of just a Greek yogurt. And I actually get a scoop of plant based protein powder of like vanilla flavor. And I pour that onto the yogurt, and then get blueberries and chia seeds and kind of mix it all together. and
00:26:12
Speaker
I've never thought of eating protein powder outside of a smoothie. But it's actually really good with yogurt. Yeah. And as in thing yeah, I get a ton of macros out of that, that one very simple bowl. And it's so much better than my typical bowl of cereal.
00:26:30
Speaker
Yeah, no, I do the same thing. And I have to correct myself. Actually, i said, We're more resistant to glucose. We're more sensitive to glucose, not resistant. I have to. Yeah, we're insulin resistant. I think. yeah yeah Yes. yeah Yes. Yes. And another trick that I do is i will make, I buy a unflavored protein powder because I don't love the flavors, the sweetness, but I add that to my oat milk when I do have cereal.
00:26:57
Speaker
Oh, instead of just having the oat milk, adding the protein powder to the oat milk and just getting a little bit more protein in there, too. There's all sorts of tricks. yes that's so smart. Yeah, I tell my clients, have nothing wrong with you supplementing like.
00:27:11
Speaker
Just try not to supplement more than once a day. So whether that's, you know, protein powder in your yogurt or a protein drink, like after your workout, try not to overdo it on the the process. from real well But yeah, if you're if you need, you know, that extra 20 grams of protein to hit your goal, by all means.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah. That's what it's there for.
Embracing New Habits During Menopause
00:27:31
Speaker
Awesome. Well, this is really helpful just to find ways to make things practical for people and also to help them feel there's a sense of hope. It's just got to be patient. Like you said, it's very slow. it's not going to be as easy as it was a decade or two ago, but there are some ways to be healthy and fit. And it's really about being strong and healthy and not skinny and frail.
00:27:50
Speaker
Absolutely. And just, you know, it's a new body, new habits. you know, I always tell women, it's not anything that you've done, right? Yeah. This is everyone goes through this period and everyone's body responds differently. It's just figuring out what's going to work for you.
00:28:06
Speaker
And sometimes that means throwing out what's not working. Usually that's what it means. And just starting fresh and being open. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And thanks for sharing your expertise with us. Thank you for inviting me.