Transcript
Speaker: you
Speaker: Hello and welcome to The Exchange and thank you very much for finding us. And the us in this instance is two of us. um And the important one ah is the man who's been in charge of keeping an eye on Wales' public spending for nearly the past eight years, trying to make sure as Auditor General that your taxes and mine and so much more is spent well in Wales and that if it isn't,
Speaker: and I'm afraid to say that sometimes it isn't that he does something about it. He is Adrian Crompton. Welcome, Adrian. Diolch And I'm Betsan Powys, a political commentator who's relied on Adrian's knowledge of how things are done in Wales very many times over the past few years. So it's very good to be here.
Speaker: And after, well, it'll be a good eight years next summer, Adrian, you're off. That's right. I hope it's been a good eight years. But yes, I finished ah next July. It's an eight year appointment. And so, yeah, just welcoming the chance really to reflect on ah all that I've seen and learnt over the last seven and a half years.
Speaker: And are you already thinking ahead to your plans for post eight years? Well, at the moment, yeah, very much in the thinking stage. um My priority um at the moment seems to be learning the banjo, which was a present for my birthday a couple of months ago.
Speaker: And that's eating up quite a lot of my spare time. But I'm sure I'll, well, I hope I'll be able to move on and do something else ah more serious but as well. Well, that means for the next podcast, you can play us out. Well, I hope so. You need to practice. That really is a niche audience. But the plan now, just for you to know what our plans are, and for four fairly short and sharp episodes of this podcast.
Speaker: And it's to give you, Adrian, a chance to say some things that you feel need saying ah before you go. So this is a one-off series, treat podcast. for the listeners, and we hope. So, if you've ever wondered where your money's spent, how your money is spent, if you have a view on that, if you've wondered why Wales' public services aren't always doing brilliantly, if they're not doing better, if you're hoping to get your hands on power next May and want ideas on how to tackle Wales' public spending challenges, public spending challenges, get that out, you're going hear that a few times, then this podcast is for you, we hope.
Speaker: So, We're going to start with an idea of just how much money we're talking about in Wales, who gets what, how it's spent. Second episode, we'll spell out the challenges. In the third, I'm warning you now, we're going have stab at the solutions.
Speaker: And then if all goes well, we'll record a short fourth episode with a look to the future. So I hope that sounds like a plan. Sounds like a plan. Good. So let's start at our feet then and start making you work and say, when we say public services in Wales, when you hear that on the news...
Speaker: What are we talking about? Who are we talking about? Okay, so as Auditor General, um I oversee the expenditure and the performance and governance of pretty much the entirety of the devolved Welsh public sector, plus a few other bits.
Speaker: So what that means in practice is organisations that spend about £28 billion pounds of taxpayers' money, That's almost a third of Welsh GDP. So, very, very significant. so That's going to be spelled out, isn't it? Because these days, ah a million, a billion, I'm not sure it means much to us anymore. a billion is a lot of money. 28 billion is a whole lot more. Exactly.
Speaker: So... so Within my remit is ah oversight of um all of the organisations that make up the devolved Welsh public sector. So that's the Welsh Government and the Senedd themselves, through all parts of the NHS, ah all of the local government sphere, um an array of arm's length bodies that are sponsored by the Welsh Government,
Speaker: fire police authorities the national parks you name it right down to the 730 or so town and community councils in wales so it's an amazing role with a ah kind of unique privileged overview of the entirety from the very largest to the very smallest public organization in wales And as a headline, if I were to ask you, OK, as you prepare to leave, um how are you leaving things? you know, how are our public services these days? Because people who will be listening, I'm sure, will hear about them every day and the problems they face.
Speaker: So how are they doing? but I think quite a lot of what we we will talk about the the course of these episodes will be focusing on the things that aren't right or need improvement.
Speaker: ah I wouldn't want to lose sight, though, of the bigger picture. I think our public services are remarkable. And we rely on them in every way, all day, every day, in hospitals, schools, the roads, the environment, our communities, everywhere.
Speaker: ah And they face enormous challenges. Over the last couple of decades, there's been a huge squeeze on public finances, as as we all know. But huge external challenges as well.
Speaker: Climate change, Brexit, geopolitical events that come home and to roost here in Wales. And despite all of that, our services still continue to function to a really high standard in most cases.
Speaker: ah The most extreme shock, I guess, to the system came a few years ago with the COVID pandemic. And though that was a dreadful time, you know, I look back on it now and reflect that I think we saw some of the very best in terms of public service ah during that time.
Speaker: frontline staff adjusting to to maintain services to people in extraordinary conditions. um And at ah at a more strategic level, we saw the government, local government, the and NHS, all parts of the public service really collaborating effectively to together to deliver some phenomenal, literally life-saving programmes like the vaccination programme, the testing, tracing, protect programme.
Speaker: So, so I'd point to that time, I guess, whilst dreadful for so many people, like I say, it's reflecting really positively on what the public sector can achieve when it's genuinely ah united around a ah shared common purpose and everyone is pulling in the same direction.
Speaker: So, do you have to have that sort of emergency to achieve that, i suppose? Exactly. We can't live in that sort of emergency time all the time. ah And when we're spending as much money as we are, the public have a right to expect that level of um collaboration, that pace of delivery, ah ah all the time, not just in emergency.
Speaker: Another interesting point I've heard you make is that COVID changed the way we as service users behave and some of our expectations, perhaps, um of our hospitals, of our schools and so on.
Speaker: um is that Is that right? Can you quantify that, that something changed in the way we expected our services to behave at that time and our behaviour has changed since? Yeah, ah undoubtedly. And i think COVID definitely drove some of that um behavioural change for us as as clients of the public service.
Speaker: um But other factors are are are affecting that as well. You know, the the media landscape, you know, are the information landscape. general views of politics and public service delivery. All these things are affecting in some way ah the way that we as as citizens look to engage in and what we expect from our public service.
Speaker: One impact of the pandemic undoubtedly that we're still filling the effects of now was the huge scale of pent-up demand that couldn't be dealt with during that time for obvious reasons but we're now needing to deal with the its effects several years later and of course it also left us with a public sector workforce that Bluntly was pretty pretty tired and worn out, as we all were by that period. So bring those two things together, and that's part of the reason why we have such a ah squeeze on our public services at the moment.
Speaker: Okay, so before we drill down into the detail here, let me ask you one question, which is why are we doing this? We all know that you're off next summer, but is this a case of getting something off your chest or do you want to prepare your successor, whoever they might be?
Speaker: Why did you want to do this? Assuming that you did and weren't forced to, of course. No, I genuinely wanted to do this. I think it's really important. You know, I described earlier how privileged and unique this role that I hold um feels to to me to be completely independent of government.
Speaker: ah To have that breadth and depth of of perspective ah is something that is unique to this role and this organisation. um And I think although a lot of our work surfaces through the media and politicians in the Senate and so forth, not all of it does.
Speaker: um And so I feel like it's really important for me to try to put some of that on record, ah to do it at a time when I hope it will... ah provide a sort of starting point for my successor when they come in.
Speaker: But really importantly at this time, you know, next year we're going to see a huge fundamental change ah in the Senate. um And I would hope that some of what I can offer today might be picked up by some of the political parties. I certainly feel as though there is a need ah for them to do that if we're going to deliver the kind of sustainable public services I'm sure we all want.
Speaker: OK, well, fair a warning there, I think. OK, so let's let's stop there. We'll have a breather. Then we're going to lay out the challenges facing public services in Wales. So that's quite a biggie in the next episode. So join us for episode two.
Speaker: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Exchange Podcast. If you enjoyed it, then hit subscribe via your podcast provider to catch future episodes. A quick review and share with your friends or colleagues would mean a lot to us.
Speaker: For more information, check out the show notes. You'll find all the relevant links and contact details there. You can also visit our website at audit.wales. If you have any questions or thoughts, we'd love to hear from you.
