True Crime (part 1)

Transcript

Speaker: Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke, and we both love mystery. Hi Brooke. Hi Sarah, how are you doing? I'm all right thanks, how about you? I'm great, and I'm really anxious to talk to you today about a very interesting topic in the mystery space.

Speaker: Yeah, today we're going to talk about true crime. So to date, all of our episodes have been about fictional crimes. And today we're going to talk about ones that have actually happened.

Speaker: So I'll start with a brief overview. While Truman Capote's In Cold Blood is often considered the origin of modern true crime storytelling, this subgenre's history extends much further back. If you think about it, we have been reading true crime via newspaper and magazine articles for centuries.

Speaker: More recently, Thomas DeQuincy's 1827 essay on murder considered as one of the fine arts, though satirical, uses the facts of a murder to make his point. We'll post a link to the essay in the show notes. I will say that it is nearly 200 years old and the writing is of its time. Reporting on Jack the Ripper and many of the books that have since been published about those murders and the identity of the killer,

Speaker: have arguably turned what was a sensational story at the time into one of the most well -known true crime tales ever. Turning back to In Cold Blood, what made Capote's book remarkable was the narrative that he built around the story, so it reads much more like a novel. Since then, there are countless examples of books that have been published that go into details about the story behind the headlines, and we'll talk about some of those examples today. Just like In Cold Blood launched a new wave of true crime writing,

Speaker: The 2014 podcast Serial helped launch the popularity of podcasts generally and true crime podcasts specifically. We could spend the rest of today's episode naming other true crime podcasts and not reach the end of the list. In terms of topic, murder, especially the Serial kind, is popular in print, audio, and on screen. But like the broader mystery category, there are other true crimes that get attention. So Brooke, what do you think is the reason behind our fascination with true crime?

Speaker: Yeah, that's such a good question. And that's actually something I've been thinking about a lot because there is a part of me, it's not guilt, but like sometimes they feel a little bad. Like, is there something wrong with me that this is so intriguing? And I think that that's a sentiment that's shared by a lot of people and obviously a lot of us enjoy it. And so I kind of dug into like the psychology a little bit.

Speaker: Behind it and one thing that i learned and makes perfect sense is that we get a little hit of adrenaline you know when we read these stories and it's safe and so it feels good to get that hit of adrenaline this is the same reason that we.

Speaker: watch horror movies or I thought this was interesting, watch extreme sports because we're not the man or woman dangling from the tightrope, but we get that little catch our breath and that little hit of adrenaline and we find it really enjoyable.

Speaker: It's a natural reaction. It's a safe way to experience these situations. I also thought it interesting to find out that in a sense, our brains are thinking about how to stay safe. If you are in this situation, what are some tips to perhaps not be a victim? Maybe we don't have to necessarily feel bad about being intrigued by

Speaker: by this topic. That's fascinating. I hadn't thought about that kind of link between feeling safe and the enjoyment that people get out of this genre.

Speaker: I'm like you, I think I have mixed feelings about it. And that's probably why I tend to read or consume more of the financial crimes and fraud and con men. Because particularly with stories about murder from within our lifetimes,

Speaker: I find those more challenging to listen to or to read about. I don't know, maybe it's what you were describing. It's easier for me to imagine myself or someone I know as a victim.

Speaker: And yeah, so I think, but historical events, I'm probably more likely to read or listen to something about those.

Speaker: Yes, I agree. I find it much easier and enjoyable, I'll admit it, to partake in the true crime tales set in earlier centuries. And maybe that's also because just the history aspect of it, whether or not there are criminal activities involved or not, I love to learn about history too. So it weaves those two things in together. And I'm with you, Sarah. There's an American television show, American Greed,

Speaker: which is all really about white -collar crime and I love that show and it is mostly non -violent. Yeah, I've been reflecting on this as well and yeah, there's something, it's funny because I'm more than happy to read or watch or listen to something about a fictional

Speaker: crime, a fictional murder, probably not super violent, but that doesn't bother me. But if I know it's grounded in fact, then yeah, I struggle with that. Even stories that are based on actual events, I sometimes find those to be... I don't find myself choosing those as often.

Speaker: Yeah. And then on a whole other level is if the situation involves harm to a child at all. You know, I've mentioned that in past episodes for some of our other topics. It's always been hard, but then once you become a parent, I think it's really hard. And you imagine yourselves in the role of those parents who have perhaps lost children.

Speaker: And I just have a really hard time going there on those shows or those books.

Speaker: I listened to an episode of the Wisecrack YouTube channel. The title of the episode was The Bizarre Appeal of True Crime. And I liked that they referred to the invention of the printing press and the fact that when the public executions were still taking place, when they were started to be able to print these gallows pamphlets, they called them.

Speaker: so they could hand out these papers that described the crime and the reason why the person was being punished and hung. And so they were referring to these as kind of true crime beginnings because it let the people kind of have this inside scoop of what the person had done. And they were also cautionary tales like, you don't want this to happen to you.

Speaker: So I thought that was an interesting parallel and maybe similar to the way that we feel when we listen to or watch some of these and that idea like I referenced earlier, like how to survive or how not to be a victim. That is so fascinating, Brooke. And I guess it makes sense because hangings were public and really a cautionary tale for people.

Speaker: And what you were just describing reminds me of an article that I read that talked about in the late 19th century in Paris, people being able to visit a morgue and see the bodies that were there on display.

Speaker: And people spent time trying to figure out, you know, what might have caused that, you know, this person to die or this person to die. So not necessarily true crime, but certainly a reflection of people's fascination with death.

Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I've heard a little bit of that about that myself. And I thought that it was so fascinating really macabre and maybe a little soothing to know that we're not the first generation to be so enamored with, you know, speculating what happened to these people and, and how the story went down. It's, it's just fascinating.

Speaker: In preparation, I was looking at some of the old true crime cases and was really intrigued to learn that this is a case I'm not familiar with, but the murderous is Lizzie Halliday. And this was in the 1890s, which is interesting because it's right in line with the Lizzie Borden era. But apparently, people were so intrigued and enamored with this case and learning more

Speaker: that they went in and literally dismantled her home piece by piece, these tourists wanting to take a little bit of the story home with them. So I'm going to have to learn more about the Lizzie Halliday case. I would be super curious to learn about how police managed to investigate that if all of the household belongings were taken away.

Speaker: Precisely, and it also reminds me of how very little control there was of a crime scene. And that definitely happened in the Lizzie Borden case too. I think even that afternoon, different people in town were wandering around because they wanted to get a look at the blood stains and where the bodies had been.

Speaker: You just think, oh my goodness, these crime scenes were contaminated and ruined. And yeah, I don't know how those police officers did their jobs back then.

Speaker: And I think that probably does speak to some of the appeal of the genre. Look at how easily these people got defrauded, right? And then, okay, well, that would never happen to me because I would ask the right questions because I would see the red flags. I'm not going to find myself in that situation. So yeah, I suppose people who are consuming true crime are using it as a bit of a guidebook on how to avoid being a victim.

Speaker: Yeah. And I like what you said, because I think we all do that too. We have this little bit of superiority complex, like, Oh, I would never, I would never have fallen for that scam or I would never go down that dark alley. What was he thinking, you know? Um, and it, it helps us feel better, but then there's the ways that nagging thing at the back of your mind to realize that, um, you know, these are real,

Speaker: um, dangers that we live with every day. Uh, so in the intro, I talked about in cold blood. Um, I started rereading that in preparation for our episode. I didn't get through it, but even reading it now, I was again struck at like, it is such, it is so well written.

Speaker: And I can imagine how much of a thing it would have been at the time that it was published. I kind of think about Agatha Christie and the murder of Roger Ackroyd and how that was a big thing.

Speaker: I think you can point to a few books over the history of crime writing, whether it's true crime or fictional, that were really pivotal for the genre. And I don't think you can overstate how important in Cold Blood was.

Speaker: Yes. It marked that turn, like you described in the intro, where it's not a news story that's just regurgitating the facts, but it turns it into a narrative. And to my knowledge, that had never been done before. And at least not to the level, like you say, the expertise of Capote absolutely changed the landscape and changed

Speaker: what started happening with reporting on those stories and turning them into something that looks more like a fiction book. Professor Mark Seltzer says true crime is crime fact that looks like crime fiction.

Speaker: And I thought that was really interesting that it blurs the lines a little bit for us. And sometimes literally, I know that Capote had a little bit of criticism for perhaps embellishing, but I think that

Speaker: that probably was more pointed at that point in time because these things hadn't been done yet. And now we understand that there's going to be a little bit of massaging and nuancing in the way authors tell these stories. They may know that two people had a conversation and they crux of the conversation, but then they fill in the blanks for us. But no one had done this before. So I think he caught a little heat over doing some of those things.

Speaker: Mm -hmm. Yeah, I think you're right. He did receive some criticism. Have you read anything by Eric Larson? Yes, I love Eric Larson. What is your favorite? I think it's Devil in the White City. And I think I've read it twice, if not three times, because he's another just fabulous storyteller. But the story that he's telling is fact.

Speaker: Exactly. Yes. He's an amazing writer. And I love that he, um, in the Springs in that history aspect we were talking about, he sets the scene and you learn so much through his, his book about what's going on in that point in time. Um, devil in white city, also one of my favorites, and it's set to the backdrop of the 1893 world's fair in Chicago. So you're learning about.

Speaker: the construction of the World's Fair at the same time Holmes is constructing his murder castle. And it's just fantastic. Yeah, no, I highly recommend it. And his books, I've read a couple of his books and I can't think of anyone else who follows the same structure that he does where he's alternating

Speaker: chapters about the crime with chapters about setting that context, like you say, of what's happening in society. So another one that I really enjoyed of his was Thunderstruck, which is about Dr. Crippen, who he murdered his wife and led the police on an international chase.

Speaker: And that story is alternated with chapters about Marconi and the adoption of wireless communication. Those events were a little later than the ones from Double in the White City, but equally good. Yes, I think you're right too. The switching back and forth between the two topics that are happening simultaneously is such a great narrative device too. And I also felt just as intrigued with

Speaker: both stories, but you really can't wait to get to the next chapter to get caught up on what's happening in the other storyline. So great writer, yeah, highly recommend any of his stories. And he does have some books that he writes that aren't necessarily true crime, but they do the same thing where they're talking about aspects of history and what's happening at the same time.

Speaker: So in the introduction, I mentioned other types of crime that people can check out if they're like us and maybe not as comfortable reading about true crime murders. Last year, I read Bill Browder's book Red Notice, which details his experiences with the Russian government.

Speaker: and finance, and there is some murder in that, but that's not the crux of the story. But I really enjoyed that. And then there are several podcasts. I actually thought this was really interesting that I have listened to several podcasts around fraud and financial crimes.

Speaker: Um, so, uh, the dropout, which is about Elizabeth Holmes and you know, she's just been, um, I think sent to prison for, uh, for her crimes. Um, there's, uh, several podcasts that I listened to about, uh, Quadriga, which was a,

Speaker: Bitcoin exchange that collapsed when its founder died suddenly. And when they tried to open up the cold wallets where the money was stored, it turned out there was nothing there. And so one of those is a death in crypto land, which was produced by CBC, our national broadcaster here in Canada.

Speaker: billionaire boys club about investment fraud in the 1980s and chameleon, which I thought was really fascinating. It was about a scam artist taking advantage of people wanting to get into the entertainment industry. Uh, and there's several, like I could, I could go on and on. I know Netflix, was it Netflix that did the Anna Delvi story, but they actually fictionalized it, right? So there's, um, so I, I think I had listened to a podcast about

Speaker: that, and it was meant to be a true crime podcast. And then Netflix, I think, fictionalized it, which is interesting, that kind of blurring of the lines there, doing more than what you said about filling in some of the gaps around some conversations. I think they actually did fictionalize it a little bit.

Speaker: I think so. But I, you know, one thing that ends up happening to me when I listen to a podcast or maybe I watch a show that's based on a true situation, then I like to go because we live in such a wonderful time and like look up the pictures like what did Dr. Death really look like or, you know, in this situation,

Speaker: And I was really impressed by how well the actress did at imitating her put on accent. Like she does a great job. I watched some video and saw some photographs. So still a great show, but we do have to remember that some of it has to be taken with a grain of salt because they're building this narrative that might be fictionalized in some ways.

Speaker: So most of the examples that I've given, Brooke, are produced by North American creators. But crime is an international thing, and true crime's popularity is international. And I think just a quick Google search would reveal lists of shows and books to read about true crime in other places.

Speaker: one that I found and I don't think I've listened to any of these, but there's an Australian show. I think it's a podcast called Case File, which apparently is quite good. Great. That sounds good. We always could use some more recommendations for some podcasts to listen to.

Speaker: So we haven't really talked about this, Brooke, but I think there's often fictional stories that are pulled from factual events, right? A recent example is Louise Penny's most recent release where she uses part of her story. She uses some details from a mass shooting that happened in Montreal.

Speaker: And she handled that with the utmost respect and care and says in the author's note how she was in touch with people who were at that event and people who were family members of victims to make sure that they were okay with the way that she was talking about that. But I don't know that that's always what happens.

Speaker: Yeah. And we've gotten pretty used to seeing in modern times, you know, the based on true story or inspired by true events. Um, so we know that that happens a lot in, in the entertainment and the fiction that we consume now, but actually there's a long history of it.

Speaker: Yeah, so Poe, I think, took inspiration from actual events and actual murders to write his stories. Yeah. And just this week in some of my research, I found a actual case that inspired Charles Dickens. So I think it would be fun. We'll do some more research, Sarah, and maybe we can do an episode on some of these true crimes that inspired fiction. So it's almost in reverse.

Speaker: Mm hmm. Yeah, no, I think that I think that would be great. Thank you everyone for joining us today on Clued In Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah. And we both love mystery. Clued In Mystery is produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen. Music is by Shane Ivers at Silvermansound .com. Visit us online at CluedInMystery .com or social media at Clued In Mystery. If you like what you heard, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or telling your friends.