Transcript
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you.
neocharge: What's up everybody and welcome to a very special episode of Shapes of Gaming. This is going to be the second spoiler cast we've done and it certainly won't be the last. We are going to do a deep dive into the wonderful painted world of Claire Obscure Expedition 33.
neocharge: For all of you that have played it and finished it, or people that are curious about listening about it. This time I'm joined by three fellow expeditioners. As always, the Retro Gaming Encyclopedia, Bob Harriman, Leon Lyon Hartley on PSN. What's up, man?
Leon Lionheartly: My, what lovely feet you have.
neocharge: Yes, that's amazing.
Leon Lionheartly: How's it going, man How you doing? It's a wonderful evening, ready to talk about a very special game.
neocharge: Definitely. It's going well. It's going well. Also joining me for this special episode are two fellow listeners of the show. um He's platinum to every single Final Fantasy to date. Every single one. Even the spinoffs. One of the most talented gamers I know.
neocharge: And you may recognize him from episode 8. Caleb Schiff, Admiral Merps on PSN. How's it going, man?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): For those who come after.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, yeah, I'm just diving right fucking into it, man.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I can't, I've been waiting to talk to you guys about this for like a month and a half, and it's been killing me.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So I'm glad to be back. I'm honored to be back. This is cool.
neocharge: Dude, it's I've been wanting to talk about this for so long. I think I was the first one that finished it. So, oh my God, I can't wait.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I think so.
neocharge: i And rounding out the Expeditioner crew, um also joining us, he created our outro and intro, actually, and is a wizard with music production. And fresh off the game, actually, he just finished it.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: Alex, Goatlord Sreobix. How's it going, man?
OracleCardsAndGames: Pretty good, man. Pretty good.
neocharge: So, you literally just finished this game.
OracleCardsAndGames: ah Yeah, this morning. um Two hours before i had to be at work.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Tell everybody what time that is.
OracleCardsAndGames: um That was 4 a.m. this morning. I was at work at 6 a.m.
neocharge: Holy crap. So PST 3 a.m. 3 a.m. And what? ah 6 a.m. your time, Caleb.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: That's crazy.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, i was even I was still asleep. and I mean, you know, I had to do some landscaping work today, and I usually get up early for that, but you got that when I was out like a light. Good job. ah Done.
Leon Lionheartly: Good work, Ben.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: You know what that also means?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Made it just in time.
Leon Lionheartly: You know what else that means, right?
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: what
Leon Lionheartly: He finished it one hour before episode eight went live.
neocharge: holy shit yeah yeah because we yeah wow yeah oh very cool very cool well uh yeah thanks as always for listening and we love having you on here and caleb welcome back uh
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, damn, he listened to it on his way to work. Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: I was actually listening to it this morning at work. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you.
Leon Lionheartly: What?
neocharge: Can't wait to talk all about Claire Obscure Expedition 33. This game ah came out of nowhere, really. 30 plus people made it. They were on their own expedition.
neocharge: um And before we get into it, I got to say it, right? This episode will be all about Claire Obscura Expedition 33. We're going to crack this game wide open.
neocharge: And I don't think I have to say this, but, you know, part the the title does say Spoiler Cast. So there is going to be... All the spoilers. We're going to crack this game open.
neocharge: We're going to spoil the shit out of it. It is a spoiler cast. So if you haven't played this game or you're even remotely interested in it, please go play it. There are some twists and turns. There are some incredible surprises.
neocharge: And man, it is a wild ride that we are about to get into. So there's your warning. Rip Gustave.
Leon Lionheartly: Ha ha ha ha.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, man.
neocharge: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Way to tear the bandaid off. Jesus.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Man.
neocharge: Gotta, gotta.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Wait, wait, what happens to him? What are you talking about? I don't, I blacked out after like 10, 15 hours.
neocharge: Right, right.
OracleCardsAndGames: One shot. That's all it was.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: One shot. Uh,
neocharge: Yep. Yep. So this, of course, this game, of course, is a ah turn-based RPG. And it's a, ah what I like to call a FRPG, French RPG.
neocharge: But in the, yeah, but for up a ah ah but it's in the vein of JRPGs.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yep. but
neocharge: So it's a JRPG-like structured game. And so we want to tell the listeners, why the hell should they listen to us? If we're talking about this Claire Obscure Expedition 33,
neocharge: And we're just going to go around the table, if you will, and say our favorite RPG IPs of all time. So you get a little bit of an idea of where we're coming from ah to have clarity on why you should listen to us regarding this game.
neocharge: So Bob, you start.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): How many do you want? How many do want? Because I can name 6,000.
neocharge: Three. Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: i was going to...
neocharge: you're the You're the RPG master for sure. so
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, Caleb's right. I'm like, I'm sitting here going, what are the top three? I've played so many over the fucking years. It's weird. it's weird um But absolutely, number one at the top of that list is always going to be Final Fantasy.
Leon Lionheartly: um You make a Final Fantasy spinoff. You make a Final Fantasy mainline. It could be attack. can be anything. I'm all for that, right? um Secondly, I think this is ah it's another square property.
neocharge: you
Leon Lionheartly: So I know I'm going to probably get some flack. You're a fanboy. But if you have not played the Octopath Traveler series, you need to go do that, please.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: um I think those are great modern RPGs with awesome storytelling. So I'm going to just leave it like that. And I will say you tell you this much.
Leon Lionheartly: To play those, those are not small like what we're talking about here. where we i finished it in, I think, 60, 65 hours for Claire. Those are 120-hour RPGs. um Those are the Dragon Quest XI series.
Leon Lionheartly: that came out of Square Enix.
neocharge: Thank you.
Leon Lionheartly: um And then lastly, rounding it out, I'm sorry, I gotta do i got to do this. I gotta go to the Western group. And if you have to give me my gumption between Fallout and Mass Effect or um even, i don't know, let's just say Elder Scrolls,
Leon Lionheartly: I gotta say, Mass Effect, or I mean, ah ah Fallout is probably superior just because of the ambience. It's great. I love that retro, that retro, few like, futuristic feel.
Leon Lionheartly: um Fallout to the, yeah you know, Bombs Out Baby. Give us all of those tunes. I'll play them all day in the car.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I do have to ask you, new Vegas, is that is that your favorite Fallout or not?
neocharge: Those are some good ones.
Leon Lionheartly: No, it's actually three.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Good choice.
neocharge: oh
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I love Fallout 3. Sorry, I just needed to know which one which one you were thinking.
neocharge: Interesting.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, now you can guess which one I'm wanting to be remastered.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah, for sure.
neocharge: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Those are good ones.
OracleCardsAndGames: We actually talked about that in ours, in the Oblivion cast.
neocharge: Yes. Yeah, we had an ob Oblivion spoiler cast. and ah You and Bob did that. So that was awesome. Alex, you go next.
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay, so if you guys heard the Oblivion spoiler cast episode, obviously massive Elder Scrolls fan. Always have been, always will be until the day I die.
OracleCardsAndGames: um Second for me, was a one-off game. Sony did. um Legend of Dragoon.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yes.
OracleCardsAndGames: um
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yes.
OracleCardsAndGames: Comes directly into why I love Claire so much, and I'll get into that. um Thirdly,
OracleCardsAndGames: i've I've really got to give it to Dragon Age, honestly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Hell yes.
OracleCardsAndGames: As much as I'd love to give it to Final Fantasy, I think I've played more Dragon Age recent in recent years than I have Final Fantasy.
Leon Lionheartly: Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's fair.
Leon Lionheartly: Does that include ah does that include ah the latest one?
OracleCardsAndGames: It was terrible.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I didn't hate it. i thought it was fun. i did not think it was Dragon Age enough. That was my problem with it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah.
neocharge: Yikes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: ah that' Did he do three or that was two? Third one?
OracleCardsAndGames: That was three.
Leon Lionheartly: There was three.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, that was three.
neocharge: Oh, that was three. Caleb, how about you?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh my god.
neocharge: Or do you want to go last since you're the RPG master?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Well... i I appreciate that. i And I, you know, mine are going to be the ones that are like, oh, well, duh.
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I, and Final Fantasy has always been my favorite. My specific favorite of all of them was the OG FF7. You can make a million arguments about whether it's the best one.
Leon Lionheartly: Yes.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i I actually don't think it's the best game.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I think six is the best of them, but seven is my favorite for so many reasons. We don't have 16 hours for me to tell you why. Just, you're going to know that. But, The other Square Enix... Well, Square Soft, actually.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Chrono Trigger. I mean, come on. Chrono Trigger is one of the best games like ever made, in my opinion.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah it's It's just got everything. It's like the Wizard of Oz of video games. There's, you know... It's not a spoiler cast for Chrono Trigger, but it involves time travel.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It involves magic. It involves prehistoric stuff. It involves science fiction-y future stuff. It just it has it all.
neocharge: Yeah,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): The music's wonderful and blah, blah, blah. It's great. ah So... Another one, one of my favorite RPGs of all time, as silly as this might sound, ah I was a big fan of the other than the ones you guys have already listed because you've you've already listed very good ones.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I loved the Breath of Fire series, Breath of Fire 2. Wait, did I steal yours?
neocharge: yeah that yeah was my third one.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I stole it. I'm so sorry.
neocharge: That's awesome.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I loved Breath of Fire.
neocharge: That's awesome, though. Hell yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's
neocharge: Dude, I hope that comes back. And, man, Capcom is on a roll. They might.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh yeah. No, like just give it, inject it into my veins, please.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um And so the third one, cause I, you know, Chrono Trigger was the one I was going to go with and Breath of Fire.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then the last one for me would have to be as tough as this sounds. um boy i had it and then i remembered you said legend of dragoon so that kind of takes that away um can i just say clear obscure can i just throw that i mean that's what this is about it's up there it overtook i mean mass effect 2 is probably my favorite western one i love that one but i've already thrown out too many games i'm just it's so hard for me to choose there's there's so good uh
neocharge: Right?
Leon Lionheartly: Can I... oh
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
neocharge: You are ah connoisseur of RPGs.
Leon Lionheartly: get a
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I probably Lunar.
neocharge: And yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Actually, do Lunar's the one.
neocharge: Hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's the third one. I got to go with that.
Leon Lionheartly: ah dad that's
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Loved it.
Leon Lionheartly: That's fair. I was going to say, I can give you at least two more, three more right off the top of my head for the PS era.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I mean, you've got Wild Arms. You've got um absolutely Legend of Ligaya series to go with it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: You got the SMT series. So you you definitely got some competition there.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah I was surprised you didn't say Wild Arms, actually.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I really thought you might, but you know.
Leon Lionheartly: ah eat So yeah, yeah, yeah. you're You're right. That is in that list. ah But this is not a cast about that series because I can talk about that for now.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right. They're all so close.
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but Yeah. Nice.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: Right. ah Just mine, ah Final Fantasy top has to be Final Fantasy 7 is my second favorite game of all time. I'm absolutely in love with it. Love the Final Fantasy series. I loved 16 recently. It was amazing. Clive's my boy.
neocharge: ah And then I'd say the Tales of series. I'm a big fan of the Tales of series.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): nice
neocharge: It's more action based RPG.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: My favorite one is probably Tales of Symphonia. I played it on the GameCube. I was pretty young. And the Tales of series holds a close place in my heart. And then the last one, it's kind of weird because you don't hear this in like the JRPG ah area, but Pokemon.
Leon Lionheartly: Duh!
neocharge: Pokemon is, ah it's an yeah, it's an RPG.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah Hey, it's an RPG. yeah
neocharge: And i man, I've played the shit out of every single mainline Pokemon game. ah Playing Violet on the new Switch 2 now. So those are my three.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): This guy knows his Pokemon. It's ridiculous.
neocharge: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: I swear to God, there's like a part of my brain that I access that I know every single Pokemon name. like And we're up to like Gen 10. It's crazy.
neocharge: Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's, you know, Combee. And...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I feel like when you're old and you're on your deathbed and your kids grandkids or your relatives ask you a question, you're just going to be like, Charmander!
OracleCardsAndGames: What a random Pokemon.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's all you're going remember.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You're just going to know the starting three in every game.
neocharge: yeah
neocharge: Pokemon dementia. ah Grandpa, those are the old ones. So, yeah, those are all of our favorite RPG IPs. So, yeah, we wanted to kind of give you a little bit of a backstory on what we love. And we'll probably mention these IPs during this game because or during the spoiler cast, because, man,
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: This game is kind of a love letter to all of those games we talked about.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. Okay.
neocharge: It's a heavily, heavily inspired by a lot of the classic and even modern JRPGs. So um the structure of this podcast is going to go a little... where So Claire Obscure has Axe, and they have an epilogue and a prologue.
neocharge: And we're going to go... you know, ah act by act. We're going to go prologue. Act 1, Gustave. Act 2, Verso. Act 3, Mael. And then epilogue.
neocharge: And then after that, we're going to go into the endgame and the builds we used because holy shit, this game...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: The build crafting like we've already talked off cast about this and we have completely different builds and that's probably going to be one of my favorite areas to talk about because man, the build crafting in this game is phenomenal.
neocharge: So I think we all love this game. ah It's my game of the year easily and it's one of my top favorite RPGs of all time.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: They came out of the park swinging man, man It's just an incredible ride. It's ah it's your game of the year, too, right, Caleb? And then we'll go to...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh God. Yeah. When they showed the trailer at the Xbox show, like when they announced it, I remember Matt and I were talking, uh, you know, texting and I was just like, this is, I don't care if this wins game of the year, it's going to be my game of the year when it comes out.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): If it's anything like this trailer, I mean, I knew it then I just, there are those games that come across rarely for me. Cause I played for 37 years of my life, which is gross, but also awesome.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Um, And so when i when I get that feeling, it's like, boy, that doesn't happen every day. It doesn't happen every five years. Like, where did this come from? So, yeah, it is safe to say i don't think anything can top this game. It might even be my game of the decade, like for real. yeah I think it's it's Rebirth and That are probably my two games of the decade.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I could complain about Rebirth more than I can complain about Claire Obscure. And that's saying something for me, you know, as as as a Seven fan.
neocharge: Oh, that's a good point.
Leon Lionheartly: you're you're absolutely You're absolutely right, Caleb.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: and And that's what makes this so interesting, is I saw the game, and I knew it was going to be good. But I didn't jump on the pre-order train. Thank you, Microsoft and Oblivion Remaster.
Leon Lionheartly: I call it Remake, but whatever.
neocharge: Yes.
Leon Lionheartly: The point is... i I've always been on that fence with with ah JRPGs, just because you have some that are not always the greatest. um And I can think back to the last RPG that I looked at and went, oh my god, that is my game and I need to play it.
Leon Lionheartly: And that was that was actually Octopath Traveler.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Nice.
Leon Lionheartly: um Which...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Did you play both of them? Did you play one and two?
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, I loved them. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah um So yeah, just to see this JLPG come out of the middle of nowhere.
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah
Leon Lionheartly: um And then now I'm just finally happy, as we said, pre-recording here. you know i finally they're up The physical editions are finally up available for pre-order on GameStop.
Leon Lionheartly: um So for anybody that was that's like me and sitting on a digital copy because you were schmuck and didn't order it in time. um They're there. Go do it. Because this game is probably, like you said, realistically, this is the game of the decade.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I was the first to finish it. And I was like, Bob, I know you're playing Doom the Dark Ages, but you need to finish, wrap that shit up.
neocharge: This is the most Bob game I've ever played. Because I and i know your tastes. And Cale, I knew you were going to love it. And the moment I saw it, yeah, at the...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I mean that, duh.
neocharge: Right. At the Xbox game show, I was like... Okay, what the fuck is this? And I believed in it so much, I drafted it. And it's the highest scoring game of the year. So, yeah. ah Alex, how about you? You're fresh off of it. You finished it less than 24 hours ago.
neocharge: Is this your game of the year?
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay. So first off, I want to say I waited. Um, when I first heard about Claire and I saw the trailer, I was first thing that came to mind is, oh great. Another RPG. Cause there's so many of them, the market's a little flooded sometimes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: And then unfortunately Bob here never shut the hell up about it. yeah And eventually I caved and honestly, yeah, um I'm not going to say it's game of the decade for me. Um,
OracleCardsAndGames: and we're still a little, yeah, we're so still a little early in the decade.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): a big ask. That's a big ask.
neocharge: Yeah, it's...
OracleCardsAndGames: And a decade ago, i was only 18.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: So the games are different then. Um, so game of the year. Absolutely. Absolutely. Bar none. Um, as much as I've loved all the other titles I've played, I've played doom. I stopped playing doom so that I could play Claire. I stopped playing a world of Warcraft again. So I could play Claire.
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, it's, it's impressed me in every way, shape and form. Um,
neocharge: Awesome.
OracleCardsAndGames: and
neocharge: Very cool.
OracleCardsAndGames: and whether it's the soundtrack, the art, the story, everything about it has been phenomenal.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah Like literally everything.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): that' That's the thing that's most impressive to me is, you know, when you can complain about, not that you want to complain.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): mean, we love games. That's we're here. Duh. But you know, there's like, man, that game was really cool. This thing didn't really jive with me or that thing was kind of weird. What did you think of that story? too it Everything about this game.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was just like, how, how did they do it perfectly? I don't understand. I feel like I've died and this is fake. Like, I don't know how they did it, but here we are.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. yeah
neocharge: Yeah, it's it's so well-rounded. Everything is so polished, dripping with style. There there are some minor gripes, right? like the
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah yeah Platforming is a bit janked.
neocharge: There's no map in the areas, and they do encourage some platforming in some areas. and there was Yeah, gestural beaches, man, that one you have to climb.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's true.
neocharge: oh Or the the yeah volleyball one. Oh, my God.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): do you Do you want to hate yourself?
neocharge: That was insane.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Do you want to hate yourself right now?
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So my, not you, another friend of mine who had gotten a little further than I did because I was in France when the game came out. and We can talk about that later. Otherwise, I would have been there day one and I probably wouldn't have stopped playing it. But ah my buddy was complaining about the, this gestural beach where you have to climb.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): He was like, good fucking luck when you get there. And I didn't know what he was talking about. So I stumbled upon this beach and my wife happened to be down here with me because she's not much of a gamer, but she recognizes art and she recognizes beauty. And she, she was intrigued enough.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And that's saying something for her. She just, she doesn't give a shit. She usually just like leaves, leaves me no advice. I did that climb the first time ah didn't fall.
neocharge: son of a bitch. I knew you were going to say that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): didn't, I didn't even know. i was just like, this is going on forever. And I texted my buddy Nick and I was just like, so do you, do you want to run into oncoming traffic?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And he's just like, what happened?
neocharge: i
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, you remember that thing you were bitching about? Well, I did it in one try and I didn't even know I was doing it.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And he was like, the platforming sucks. How did you do it? And I was like, I don't know. I just just did it.
Leon Lionheartly: the Thank you, Caleb. Because the the I screwed up that platforming, but that was more less on the game and more on me.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Because I was like, i was like I'm curious.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: i was like, hey, I wonder what happens here. And I fell halfway down. But that was because I was dicking around, for lack of better term.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): know
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: But the volleyball stuff can suck a fat fart out of my ass hole.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): no
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I agree 100%. It's terrible.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's awful.
Leon Lionheartly: That is terrible. and that and that And that goes to, and we can talk about it later, but that goes to why this game fits where it does. And it's so weird to digest um into where it fits on my gamling gaming lists of all time or whatever, because there are some things that objectively are not as good as they should be.
neocharge: yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: um And unfortunately, you got to you you have to be critical. um It's just where they do shine, man, it's a 10 out of 10, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah um It's like a 12 out of 10 most of the time.
neocharge: course
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: oh yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's so good.
neocharge: Phenomenal. It took me about three, four, maybe five tribes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, it was a bitch.
neocharge: it was It was tough.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, I'm not trying to humble brag.
neocharge: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It surprised me when I did it.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Because i was I didn't know that that's what people were talking about.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was like, oh, this? No thing. No no big deal. But it's, yeah, it was a lot.
neocharge: That's impressive, man.
OracleCardsAndGames: I know which one you're talking about. That one took me over two hours.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh my God.
OracleCardsAndGames: So I can i can't say anything at all.
neocharge: Oh, no.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Dang.
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm terrible at platforming in RPGs.
neocharge: That's medication. Damn, that's dedication.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And that's when platforming is done well. And this, you know, they're a double A studio, like whatever.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but It wasn't the greatest platforming, but if that's my biggest complaint, okay.
OracleCardsAndGames: No.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): that it
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: It says something when a game's so good you have to nitpick the tiny things.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, for sure.
neocharge: Exactly, exactly. um Yeah, and that that's required for the Platinum. And for the listeners' information, I have the Platinum. Caleb has the Platinum. Bob has the Platinum.
neocharge: And Alex, you're going to get that Platinum, but you don't have it just yet, right?
OracleCardsAndGames: I have to get it on console. Game Pass doesn't track everything like that.
neocharge: Oh, yeah, you played...
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Okay, what what platform did you play this on? That's ah that's a good point.
OracleCardsAndGames: um I'm on PC. um
neocharge: Okay, perfect.
OracleCardsAndGames: but's I don't own any modern consoles past the PS4. So everything that comes out on PC, it's what I play on.
neocharge: Gotcha. So you have Steam achievements then, right?
OracleCardsAndGames: um No, because this one was on Game Pass.
neocharge: Oh, gotcha.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Do they give you Xbox achievements for that?
neocharge: Okay, yeah, I don't...
OracleCardsAndGames: Say it again, sorry.
neocharge: Yeah, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but Do they give you Xbox achievements when you play Game Pass games on PC?
OracleCardsAndGames: Nope.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Huh.
Leon Lionheartly: you
neocharge: Okay.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Interesting.
Leon Lionheartly: That's a crime.
neocharge: That is a crime. Yeah, I'm not too versed in the PC world, so...
OracleCardsAndGames: At least not as far as I'm aware. I've never had a pop-up for an achievement for the game.
neocharge: while Wow, wow.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's crazy.
neocharge: Dang, yeah. yeah So... This game, you pop it in, right? and or or if you Or you download it if it's digital. I got it physical. I think most of us got it physical.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh,
neocharge: You pop it in and it downloads and then you launch that app. And you sit there with your controller in your hand. You're like, all right, cool. I'm ready play this game. Let's go. And then that fucking music hits on the title screen.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah.
neocharge: And you just sit there and you're like, i don't want to press. don't want to press X. I just want to fucking listen to this music.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh yeah
neocharge: The title screen on this game just got me. It almost like I teared up a little bit because I was like, holy shit, because I have my shit loud and I have a system.
neocharge: Right. And it's just all around me.
Leon Lionheartly: All right.
neocharge: And I do the track on the title screen. There are very few games that I will launch and then just sit there for about 5 to 10 minutes in awe.
neocharge: And this was one of them. I did it with Rebirth 2 and 16.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: But yeah, the the title screen was incredible. Did you guys feel the same way?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh yeah. Oh my God.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, it's one of those things where it just set that mood, you know, whether you wanted to or not, if you went to the grocery store and some jackass took the last milk and you're just pissed off, you come home, you pop in Claire Obscure.
neocharge: You're just like...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I'm just like, well, now I'm in the Belle Époque era of France and everything is going to be fine and sad and great and terrible. I'm going to cry and let's go. like Those are all the things going through my, my heart and my mind when the title screen starts.
neocharge: like
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, usually cause I'm a big music guy. i I do listen to more of the title screens than your average person, but this one i never got sick of ever. Like I'm mad that it's not on my system right now while we're doing this.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like i I thought about doing it and I was like, nah, that'll screw up the mic. Don't do that. But I, I'm hearing it in my head for sure.
neocharge: Yeah. And I can't play it because we might get copyright wrote struck.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh that's yeah.
neocharge: and
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Well,
neocharge: Yeah. mean i can blame Maybe a little clip, but Bob, what'd you think?
Leon Lionheartly: ah you're You're right. It's interesting because you sold this game to me. you and Well, you and Caleb both quite frankly sold this game to me.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Mm-hmm.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: um And when I finally got off of the other projects I was working on, to hit that startup menu and then to hear that that soundtrack for the first time... made me go, it was like a a switch turned on.
neocharge: Thank you.
Leon Lionheartly: I went, oh, this is what you're about. Like it set the mood and the stage for the rest of the game in such a way that is very unique. There's only a couple of small handful of games that I can sit there and go, oh, I know that intro.
Leon Lionheartly: That menu intro off the top my head, you know, like, Mega Man X, I can hear those in my head and and just ring them naturally.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Claire Obscure sits at the top ah at that at that list, which is a good sign because that's good sound and game design.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, exactly. Alex, you feel the same?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah. it um the The best way I can really compare it, like it felt like popping on Kingdom Hearts 1 for the first time.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Mm hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: And like it really just like I was like, oh, this is phenomenal because booting up the game, I didn't expect a whole lot out of the soundtrack because, you know, a lot of g RPGs or RPGs in general don't have the greatest soundtracks.
OracleCardsAndGames: um Booting it up, though, it was immediate. Like for me, at least as a musician, there was that immediate emotional connection that I hadn't had in a game in a long time.
neocharge: Yeah, because you have a unique perspective. And Caleb, I guess you do too, because you both are in audio design, right?
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: And you can just kind of hear the subtle things within a track. So, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. I mean, the way music moves, ah and I say that both literally and just sort of metaphorically, like it you you a person can be moved by music.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know People might listen to heavy metal to get adrenaline pumping or like go to a workout or something as an example. But the way that this music moved was, i mean again, it's not a surprise. My favorite soundtrack of all time was Final Fantasy VII OG, specifically like piano, you know unless you had to have orchestral stuff.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I was a piano player ah for a long time. I still am, but not as good as I used to be. And this music was just instantly like I fell in love with music again.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You know, i just needed, I needed to play my piano. I needed to try to figure out Lumiere. I just needed. And that's something that hasn't been there for a while for me. You know, I've gotten excited about music before, but this one was like, I chose the wrong path in life.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I should have done music forever. Like that's what this soundtrack did to me, which is crazy in a good way.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It was amazing.
neocharge: Yeah, that's awesome.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, it definitely forced me to pick up my guitar a couple times. and I was like, how do you play that? That sounds beautiful. Like, it was so phenomenal.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: Yes.
OracleCardsAndGames: that the Everything about the soundtrack is just chef's kiss, honestly.
neocharge: Yeah, that's that's how you know you have good art is when art is your inspiration. And the main composer of this game was found on SoundCloud.
neocharge: And the...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like what?
neocharge: Yeah, the I know.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's crazy.
neocharge: The lead creative director basically worked at Ubisoft, right? And he was tired of working on whatever they were pushing him, which I can't even imagine what they were pushing on him.
neocharge: And he either wanted to ah present this to the higher-ups to see if it could get published or did present it. And it got didn't get green light even in the early process. But he was like, you know what?
neocharge: Fuck you. I'm going to go make my own game. I'm going to get build my development team off of Reddit and SoundCloud. And most importantly, we're going to... make a game that we love to play and that we're passionate about.
Leon Lionheartly: so everything
neocharge: And you can see it throughout the entire game. The composer. Now, if I butcher this name, ah Caleb, please correct me.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'll try.
neocharge: Lorien Testard.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah Pretty close. Yeah. I mean, I'm not fluent in French speaking.
neocharge: Cool.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I can hear a lot and and know what it means. But like, larian was like i my wife tells me that I have a problem rolling my R's when I speak French because of my Japanese and Spanish.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, I have those two a little bit. ah So I'm going to butcher that. But yeah, it's that's that's close enough. Yeah.
neocharge: Oh, really?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, really? Yeah.
neocharge: ah Really?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oui.
neocharge: ah Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): we of
neocharge: and this game is dripping with French, right?
Leon Lionheartly: I told my husband to tell him that have enough resources.
neocharge: At the beginning of the game, right? They drop you in.
Leon Lionheartly: I told him that it's hard time to make my hours a day.
neocharge: You're Gustave. You're in this nice, fancy suit. And, dude, the skyboxes in this game, the environments.
Leon Lionheartly: It's just literally better time for reason.
neocharge: You just kind of sit there and you just want to look around at everything.
Leon Lionheartly: I hate to do it just.
neocharge: i got immediate...
Leon Lionheartly: So.
neocharge: intense Bioshock Infinite vibes the moment it started. How about you again?
Leon Lionheartly: Yes, yes.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: That's exactly what I thought. they it felt like we were back in the sky, so to speak. um i was i Because I only knew partially what was going on, so I kind of anticipated this to be ah the the the town that you're you're in Lumiere.
Leon Lionheartly: to be in the sky and you're falling into the area. and kind of like ah a I immediately thought of that.
neocharge: Hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: um ah Naturally, that's not what ended up being the case, um but that's exactly where I went. um and If you don't mind, Matt, you mentioned something earlier, and I want to really quickly but at touch back on it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you.
neocharge: Please do. Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: You mentioned the the studio of you know SoundCloud and Reddit. you ah The story main main lead story writer was actually found on Reddit, right?
Leon Lionheartly: I've heard ah people talking about, well, the studio is only 34, 33 people in size. um And I've heard the discourse and and I appreciate it. But I've heard the the other side of the aisle, and I'm going to take my stance on this, that, well, that's not that impressive. We really shouldn't, quote unquote, glaze that aspect of this game.
Leon Lionheartly: I want to fight back and say, no, you should. Because you look at a game, you look at these, these were ex-Ubisoft employees.
neocharge: Thank you.
Leon Lionheartly: And then you look at what Ubisoft has now of 19,000 people.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: And they still produce, quite frankly, mid-grade Assassin's Creed shadows that is microtransactioned, that doesn't have an identity. 33 people made a game that's going to, quite frankly, I'm calling it now, going to be game of the year this year.
Leon Lionheartly: That needs to be addressed because that means this team is more focused. They're tight-knit. They know what they were going to do, and they succeeded without being interrupted by shareholders who are more concerned about short-term gains ah because this game would have never survived in a corporate environment.
Leon Lionheartly: It would have never been greenlit.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh God, it would have been murdered so fast, which makes me sad.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That just, yeah.
neocharge: Right?
Leon Lionheartly: ah So I want to point that out is I get what other people trying to say.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Well, a big, so the number doesn't matter. And I want to argue that no, it absolutely does matter because a small, flexible and well-knit team that knows each other really well produces, quite frankly, the best stuff that you're going to see in any, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be video games. could be movies.
Leon Lionheartly: could be whatever, right? Kevin Smith made clerks.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: we on a budget of $50,000 and a couple of his best friends in the backyard with a camera. Guess what? He now has view you askew and and has ah fuck you money, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. And what's crazy about that is like, you could be a person who doesn't like Kevin Smith and doesn't like clerks and that's fine. You know, not everybody likes everything, but you can't take away the man's success.
Leon Lionheartly: Hmm?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like one of the things that my dad taught me at a young age when I, because I always wanted to be an actor when I was a kid. And you know, when I got older and I realized like, shit, there's a lot of really good actors.
OracleCardsAndGames: the
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like if I'm going to do something, I want to be the best, you know, that was always my thing. And my dad would, sort of not yell at me, but he would just be like, you know, what, what bothers you about maybe being like number two or, you know, like maybe you're number two to yourself, but you could be number one to so many other people.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, it's not about that. And then, I mean, not to go completely off on a tangent, but I was talking about like, I was bitching about like Kardashians and stuff when they started to get real big.
neocharge: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, ah, America's fucked. I hate it. And my dad said, and I will never forget this. He was like, You know what, though? They're successful. like You might hate them. You might think that they're like the worst.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You might not like them. And I'm not like talking shit about Kardashians, you know whatever. they Obviously, my dad's right. And he came from film, so like hed he knows. But he was like, you have to remember that not everybody sees everything the way that you do.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and And you don't see things that other people might. You know you you might miss things. And that even though I'm not an actor, um you know I didn't make it ah so to speak in that regard. But I've never forgotten that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I thought that was really good advice. And the same holds true for this. Like people might listen to this spoiler cast because they don't want to play the game. They don't have any interest. And they're just like, fuck you guys. You're all stupid. That game sucks.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I would argue that they're wrong and I could tell them why they're wrong. But again, maybe RPGs aren't their thing. Maybe they hate French people. Maybe they hate music.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't know. Whatever it is. But the point is they're still talking about it. And my dad was right. My dad will always be right about that. And, you know, so I just, I, I agree the 32 people, 33 people that made this game.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah You have to respect them. Even if you don't like it they, they, they really just, they fucking did something that other studios who have been arguably better in, as far as like mainstream, you know, when people think of RPGs, they're like, Oh, square, you know, or, or, or like Bioware, you know, back in the day when Bioware was, was like good Bioware and not controlled by asshole Bioware, you know, different situation.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But with this, it's It's new. Everything about it was new. And these guys showed that it was possible.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And they fucking hit a home.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They had a grand slam. You know?
Leon Lionheartly: you're, you're,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's just wow.
neocharge: and
Leon Lionheartly: you youre
neocharge: And real quick, ah you you make the point of why we started this podcast, right? Video games are art and art is extremely subjective, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yes.
neocharge: And there are different perspectives looking at the same piece of art and you should just talk about it. If you hate it, if you love it, you still talk about it. And that's why I love video games.
neocharge: Video games are art.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): her
neocharge: And this developer, these developers, knew that from the ground up. And they're just like, man, we're just going to take our passion and pour it into this game. And it shows, dude.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And money be damned. they didn't i mean Not that they didn't care, obviously they wanted to continue doing that, but they were just as surprised as the rest of the world.
neocharge: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, shit, you guys like this? like you know That was so cool.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but
neocharge: And shout out shoutout to Kepler Interactive and Xbox Games Publishing. right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Definitely. Yeah.
neocharge: They backed this. They saw the passion in this studio. And they said, you know what? We like what you're doing. We're going to support it financially. And they let them have creative freedom.
neocharge: And this is what happens when you have a small, dedicated, passionate team of individuals that have creative reign. on their project, and we get a fucking masterpiece.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, absolutely.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep. It happens all the time in the indie scene and with indie games all the time.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Team Cherry was nothing before Hollow Knight.
neocharge: Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: And now look.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Of course.
Leon Lionheartly: Hey.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Now look at them. Their their next game is 55 years late. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, exactly. But I guess it's not the greatest example, but yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, you're right, though. You're right, though. They're great.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Everybody starts somewhere and God damn, this is a hell of a way to start.
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. And if I don't know if you guys noticed that Summer Game Fest this year, but ah Jeff Keighley kept mentioning, this was only 15 people making this game.
neocharge: It's just like, it's the cool thing now. And I love it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: I love it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yes. Yeah.
neocharge: quality over quantity.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yes
neocharge: And like you said, Ubisoft, all these big publishers, all these big devs. I mean, unfortunately, look at Bungie now. ah They are misstepping and they're focusing on the wrong things.
neocharge: And look what happened with Destiny. They chased money and they turned it into a live service, games as a service, bullshit Fortnite clone. But it launched way differently.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: And you saw the passion. And I want to see more of these games from these small developers that have the intent of, we just want to make a game that's fun.
Leon Lionheartly: you.
neocharge: And what we want to play, succeed like this.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It is that simple, right?
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, it is.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's same thing with movies. I think, you know, they always, oh, how can we like milk this for 55 versions of the same thing? And I'm going to leave the MCU out of it because there are comics that go back a million years and there are a hundred thousand stories. So that's different.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But like Lord of the Rings, when it came out, that needed those movies to breathe. There were three books. there were three you know like though That was a reason. But there's no reason for most of these part one of three or seven, oh, you never got the end of the story because nobody cared.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's like like the Aragon movies. I know, again, multiple books. But boy, they didn't they didn't give that IP justice. And it was like, well, you're making one book Last, you're trying to like make it three movies.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What are you doing? Nobody cares. You're not getting closure. like You don't go to a movie to say, or think, how am I going to spend more money and in nine months? like No, you want you want that story.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you you know that it's And I think that games went down that path in a very different way. You know, a lot of them had sequel-itis, but not in a bad way.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Now it's just, oh, you get a new chapter, and then we're going to give you 55 things to spend money on. Otherwise, you won't get the rest of your story. And it's like, I'm not going to do that. Ain't nobody got time for that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Because I'm old. No. i Give me a game that's done, please. Thanks.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: If you don't, ah I'll take this from a different angle for you, Caleb, because this is a video games are art and we're talking about from an artistic perspective, um I think from a very logical mindset.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: So Claire Obscure's team, Sandfall Interactive, has been, ah they're a puppet without strings, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh yeah
Leon Lionheartly: they They do not have an, their objective was to make a great game. There was no objective to make a great game that met market shares or sold X number of copies.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): right
Leon Lionheartly: And equate that to, and this is going to sound dark, but it just follow me, folks, is during World War II, U.S. forces were cut off in the force of France. And this is why going to tie it to that because we're talking about France, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: um Specifically, unit soldiers from the 1st Armored Division, they were cut off. They did not have supplies. The only thing they had was some communication. What we learned out of that was squad ah what they call small squad tactics. So teams of 10 to 12 were more effective than larger organizations because there was no communication channel. So what I'm saying is Sandfall Interactive was given a free leash from Microsoft and Kepler and they were just told, hey, go do your thing, right?
Leon Lionheartly: Not go do your thing and then check back in every three weeks or whatever their their communication was, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, and do it this way that we're not going to tell you.
Leon Lionheartly: And
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, yeah right.
Leon Lionheartly: do it this way because it creates confusion in the trenches and it reduces morale. They found that that's what we studied and found small, uh, nimble teams actually produce greater results because the more you get, the larger it is and the more the communication lines break down and the harder it is to adapt to whatever your objective is.
Leon Lionheartly: And that vision changes. And I think that's the big key. And that's why I like the indie scene is because you have a small group of people who don't, aren't answering to, uh, Phil Spencer.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right.
Leon Lionheartly: necessarily, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: um ah I'm not saying anything bad about them, right? you know Him, Todd, Howard, the the whole group, the everybody, right? I'm not saying anything bad, but they run a business. These guys are making art, and that's different a different way.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): For sure.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, the thing that I like to say, because I apply it to my music all the time, um stagnation kills creativity. um If you get used to doing the same thing every single time, and this applies to the JRPG and RPG industry as a whole.
OracleCardsAndGames: If you do the same thing every single time, eventually people get sick of it. So when a game like Claire comes up and completely innovates and flips the whole, even just as much as the turn-based combat on its head, people are interested.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): For
OracleCardsAndGames: And the the team gave every single little thing as much attention as they could versus ah big company like Ubisoft. I love Ubisoft, but a big company like Ubisoft has ah whole bunch of people breathing down just the artist's throats, just the sound guy's throats.
OracleCardsAndGames: Whereas as this team was able to come together and create one collective product. and they were able to do it their own way instead of you know microsoft like you guys have already said raising it under thought saying hey how about you well this worked in final fantasy 13 why don't you do it this way this worked in ah chrono trigger why don't you do it this way we had innovation that's what makes the game beautiful
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): for sure
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. 100%. Oh, yeah.
neocharge: yeah Yeah, exactly. And just the the fact that this game was made by such a small team and just with a ah driven passion of making something they want to play is awesome.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: ah
neocharge: And you see it right right from the get-go.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh yeah
neocharge: You see it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Thank you.
neocharge: Just...
Leon Lionheartly: How the hell did we get here?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): good
neocharge: Yeah. Right. Exactly. So yeah, i they they make you Gustave and you're running around Lumiere and it's, man, it's beautiful. It's a living town. You can talk to people. who all who all found trash can, man?
Leon Lionheartly: Yo, right here, because I am a JRPG veteran. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I am embarrassed to admit did it twice and
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then I just, just i was like, okay. I didn't do it, you know, 10 times or whatever it is. And then Matt actually told me about it, like, i don't know, but I was probably halfway through the game. And he was like, do you care if I, it's about the starting town, you know?
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was just like, sure, I've already done that. And I felt stupid. I was like, I lost some cred that I didn't just keep doing it. But I did go back, you know, I did New Game Plus, I did. And I was like, okay, I needed to see it. So it was great. But I...
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was embarrassed, and I thought, man, i how do i show up and do i show up at class tomorrow? How do this?
OracleCardsAndGames: And now i feel even dumber because I don't even know what you guys are talking about.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Go for it.
Leon Lionheartly: sure but
neocharge: Oh, no.
Leon Lionheartly: I want to tell them.
neocharge: but Okay, so... I can tell them.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): point
neocharge: So there's there's trash cans all over you Lumiere, right? And a specific trash can, if you exhaust all the dialogue, I think it's like 10 of them, right?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: It's like, hey, what are you what are you doing? And there's a guy living in the trash can, and he's like... ah This is my day of the gommage. Lucky me. ah And he basically gives you a really OP item.
neocharge: He gives you a grandiose ah Lumina chunk or one of the gold ones, right? Perfect.
Leon Lionheartly: that that's that's that's That's later on in the game
neocharge: A perfect Lumina chunk.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I think so.
neocharge: Yeah. Oh, so he gives you a Lumina chunk. So, and then there's another one.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): OK.
neocharge: ah Did you guys exhaust the options with the, you go and there's two closed doors and you you basically hear people having sex, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. Yeah.
neocharge: And you exhausted all those options.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: And they're like, here, take it. Go away. You're weird. And I love it. It's so cool that ah the devs are incorporating all this. Because, you know, there the trash can is that the thing you always check in an RPG, right? And then you're like, oh, well, and you always exhaust the dialogue, right? You're like, you you get one piece of dialogue, then you do it again. And you're like, oh it's the same. Okay, moving on. But if it's changed, you're like, hmm, how long does this last?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): right
neocharge: So... Yeah. And then, all man, I, uh, I sat in the street for about five minutes, uh, just listening to Luna play that guitar and watching our, our, goal our girl Luna.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
neocharge: Oh, she's, she's what I think as, uh, Lulu and Tifa had a baby.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: and Luna was the result. So yeah, just dude. I mean, you could just run through this part, right. And go straight to the objective.
neocharge: But if you talk to everyone and you realize they're wearing the red flowers, the people that are wearing the red flowers are being gommaged. And you're like, what the fuck's that mean? If you watched the marketing and the material, you knew that they were dying on that day um because the paintress was painting the number, but,
neocharge: If you didn't, you go through the ah town and it's just, man, it's just the style and the setting up for what's to come. And oh boy, oh boy, it's just so well done.
neocharge: And you can talk to everyone. And that one guy that paints, ah you have to go in the battle and he paints the little... ah portrait.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: It's just, there were just so many small things that you can interact with. And you know, like when you, when you play this game and that you, you see the attention to detail and you see the care into it. You're like, Oh, I'm in for a fucking treat.
neocharge: So please it me.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Do you want to hear a fun fact about the word gommage?
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Do you know what it means, translation?
neocharge: It's French for something.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know
neocharge: ah Disappear or erase.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah It means scrub.
neocharge: Okay. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and And so at the time, ah yeah and I mentioned this to you guys off off this cast, that um my wife studied French in high school.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I studied French in high school. She studied French more in college. She's more fluent than she gives herself credit for. um So that's also partially why she was interested in this. ah But there were certain phrases or or words or something that I'd be like, I know that means something. like I can't remember.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): My wife was also an art history major. So this game was like the most perfect marriage of us trying to like things that I could figure out on my own were cool. But every so often I'd be like, what does that mean? And she'd be like, scrub. And I'm like, I knew. Okay. Yeah. So like they're all fucking toast.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I knew that from the trailer, but that was actually my first clue as to like, oh my God, they're
neocharge: hi Oh, shit.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): not real? you know like I didn't know. I wasn't sure. ah And other other words too, which we can get to later, and you know past the prologue.
neocharge: Really? Okay.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But yeah, from the get-go, like there's so much power in a name. And when you keep hearing these people getting gommaged, it was like, you're going to get scrubbed. And you know you could take that
Leon Lionheartly: Thank
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Not literally, but like, oh, you know, they're being erased. They're being killed, whatever, however you want to call it. But the woman's name was the paintress. This is about, you know, everything looks like a painting. There are things about it that are almost surreal, but not quite surreal. And then you get that word and you're like, oh my shit. You know, at least for me, I just knew i was like, this game has figured it out. And then we we were still in the prologue, you know, like I was just like, I haven't even experienced that much and I'm already in love.
Leon Lionheartly: Wow.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And Lune also.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Lune means moon. that's kind of That's not that special because moon with magic and, you know, but still cool.
neocharge: Of course. Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah Dude, that is that is amazing.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: and and Because when they were talking about gommaging, I didn't quite understand the context because ah it kind of felt like in ah in a jrp ah JRPG where they talk about something, it's lore building.
Leon Lionheartly: They'll say XYZ is about to happen, but you don't understand the context of it until the prologue ends.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: um So at the end of the prologue, when the gommage happens, I mean, I text Matt right afterwards. I was like, that's it. The paintress is fucking dead. I'm going kill him. like i Because in an hour, yeah, this prologue is what, an hour or two?
neocharge: yeah Little did you know.
Leon Lionheartly: And within that time frame, I was already emotionally committed, which is just right out the gate.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: is it speaks It speaks to the game's story and presentation and how they get you with music and visuals and everything else. So I didn't even catch that um about the the the flowers um until you just mentioned something.
neocharge: Oh.
Leon Lionheartly: It didn't dawn on me. um So good call out, man.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I got to ask Alex, if you don't mind ah being a musician, when you were playing just the prologue,
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): did you were, you know, how did you feel about the music leading all the way up to the gommage? Was it one of those things? Cause you know, we talked about the title screen, we talked about the opening intro.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But when you get to the gommage and like the fucking song kicks up, were you just like, I hate myself and I love myself. Like, why did I wait so long to play this game? Like, what did you feel as a musician at that point?
OracleCardsAndGames: Dude, honestly, I was way too busy crying.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's,
OracleCardsAndGames: like the
neocharge: Oh,
OracleCardsAndGames: it that The whole Gamage sequence like hit like a punch to the dick.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: It was a lot to take in. Because like I said, I had known nothing aside from the little teeny tiny bits of info like Bob and my brother had leaked to me.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
OracleCardsAndGames: So like booting up the game, not even for me, it was, ah yeah, it was about an hour in. Just everybody starts fading away. I'm in tears. Like the music never even crossed my mind.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but it But it also helped, right?
neocharge: oh yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, you know, you're...
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, it did. Yeah, it very, very, very much set the tone for everything that was going on.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Yep. I have a question for you all. How does this make you feel?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't want to talk about it.
neocharge: So this hit me the hardest.
OracleCardsAndGames: Exactly, Bob.
neocharge: This hit me the hardest. And I can personally relate with what happened to Gustave and Sophie, right? it's It's something, it's devastating when you lose someone that you love, right? Just you love like a family member or something.
neocharge: But when you lose someone you're in love with and they're just kind of gone in an instant. I unfortunately relate to this personally and have gone through this.
neocharge: And I put my controller down for a good like 15 minutes and basically just fucking cried my eyes out.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I was surprised that you were able to continue the game. Like, for real, when I got to it and experienced it myself, I was like, how did he not just be like, I can't, it's too close, goodbye.
neocharge: You know,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, you know, like that. Yeah.
neocharge: um i I knew that it was setting up for something grand and i was very excited for it. And sometimes you just have to feel it and you just have to press on, let go and push forward.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: The expedition has to move on.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: we we must We continue.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: if When one falls, we continue for those who come after.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: And they they theme of this game, being resilient through death, and even in the beginning, everyone accepting their death. Like, you know what? I've lived a good life. And just think what you would do with the time you had if you knew when you were going to die.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. That.
neocharge: they They explored this theme and people were like, you know, I've lived an awesome life. I'm ready to go. And just the production and the quality of that cut scene.
neocharge: It was like it just hit you in the fucking soul, man.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: It was awesome.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I remember when I was 33, like when ah when that scene was going on, i was thinking about the last like six and a half years of my life because I just turned 40.
neocharge: It was awesome.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, fuck, like I wouldn't have been able to do this and this and this. And like, I wouldn't have had this much time with my wife or, you know, whatever, just all of those things. And it was very... I mean, not not in your... ah You know, your loss is a very different thing. But, like, just realizing i also put the controller down and I was like, well, I feel terrible. You know just in a good way. It was very cathartic.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And it did make me appreciate... Because, like I said earlier, my wife and I were in France when this game came out. And I... I was, i mean, you know, and I'm a gamer at heart. So I was like, damn it. Why did we plan our trip on the perfect day? But like, you know, I had a great time, but I was thinking I wouldn't have made it to France. Like we wouldn't have gone together on this trip. We just returned from like, that's crazy. And the game hasn't even officially started yet.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): How dare you bastards.
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah I was, I was feeling it all. I was feeling it all. it was crazy.
neocharge: Yeah. When you were in France, I actually just, I was going with a theme and I went to a French restaurant here, just like a little French. I got a baguette and I was like, all right, I'm ready for Claire Obscure.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: So, um, and there's even dude the mime when you get the baguette uniform or the, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: if
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh yeah
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: That was the only mine I missed in the entire game, by the way.
Leon Lionheartly: that,
neocharge: Oh, the first one. No.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, that was the only one. um
neocharge: Dang.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, that that game really had me thinking, like, I'm 28, so I've got five years, so I'm 33.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: um But it really had me thinking, like, at that exact moment, like, shit, could I live the rest of my life in five years? Like, and that that really, i was shaking a little bit because ah there was, like, that harsh realization, like,
OracleCardsAndGames: little bit of like game reflecting reality, like, holy shit. It's five years enough time. Like, and it really, I kind of played the entire game with that perspective.
OracleCardsAndGames: Cause it helped me understand things a little bit more. Cause I'm like, obviously Gustave's, it's his last year, Luna last year. What's her name? CL.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): so yeah
neocharge: See ya.
OracleCardsAndGames: ah Yeah. Sorry. She's great value character to me. I don't care about her.
neocharge: Oh no!
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): In fact, her name means sky for what it's worth.
neocharge: her a
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's not spelled the same, but it, yeah, if that makes you like her more because she wanted freedom, yeah you know, anyway, move on, continue.
Leon Lionheartly: don't know
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay.
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sorry. I just wanted you to know that.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, yeah.
neocharge: Love that.
OracleCardsAndGames: it It really helped me like almost internalize personally like what was going on. Because like for everybody there, aside from Maiel, it was there last year. So when I kind of thought about it like that, I'm like, okay, this is a lot darker of a game than I thought it was going to be opening it up.
neocharge: Right.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: you're you're you're You're right. and And I want to point this out now because I'm going to say this now before we get to the end of this game and we start talking about it. This game is so beautiful. The themes that I took from it from the very end We'll relate all the way back to the gommage.
Leon Lionheartly: And i'm going to give you a hint. When they talk about the expedition and they talk about people being gommaged and you're at the end of society because this is you know everybody from 34 on up is dead, there were groups of people who said, no, we need to go fight the paintress. My L is one of them, which, by the way, was a math problem, but that's to figure out our age. But that's neither here nor there.
Leon Lionheartly: There were other people who said, screw it.
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: I would rather stay here and wait until my time is up. And I want you to keep that in mind because when we get to the very end, I think those those themes come back all the way together. And just ah and it just really drives home everything. um But yeah, rest in peace, ah i Sophie. And I was ready to go fight the paintress.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah. You were like, I'm going fucking kill this paintress. I knew what was really happening. And I was like, yeah, you go kill her. Because I was trying to like play along.
Leon Lionheartly: uh
neocharge: um But yeah, dude, the the prologue was one of my favorites. It just set the scene for everything. And the whole... thing about all the expeditioners getting together and the speech and the boat ride and they're all like yeah let's go we got a fucking whole expedition like 50 expeditioners and they go on a boat they land on the beach and they just all fucking die never right exactly
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, if you didn't feel bad enough, you're just like, okay, what is happening?
neocharge: Yeah, and then to to touch real quick on the beginning of this game, it has the same themes.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: I felt the same way as The Last of Us. And this isn't a Last of Us spoiler cast, so I'm not going to go into the details on that, but you all know what I'm talking about.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: And it hit me the same way as it hit me on The Last of Us.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's a gut punch and then a gut punch.
neocharge: But yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like Yeah.
neocharge: Exactly.
OracleCardsAndGames: On two opposite ends of the spectrum, mind you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Definitely.
neocharge: Right. So yeah, like his his girlfriend just died. And you know they were talking about not having kids because of the gommage. And I related with that because I honestly don't want to have a kid in this world.
neocharge: And not because they're going to die at age 32, but because of other reasons. Right. And that gave me a unique perspective.
neocharge: And Bob, as a parent, I know you got a different perspective on that for sure.
Leon Lionheartly: Yes, sir. um just to see
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: to see Mael grow up and take charge of a situation um was absolutely just, as a father, that's what you want to see. You want to see your kids grow up to to do do what they do, but it also instills the worst fear.
Leon Lionheartly: which is your kid is going to go do something and you have to stop and think about it from an objective objective standpoint and say, and I get Gustav is technically not me Miles, you know, ah biological father, but,
Leon Lionheartly: she really is a you know, Gustav is really my L's dad at the end of the day.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: And we'll get into that. But, um, at the end of the day, that, that deep connection of, I'm going to do this because I want to protect you as a father and then have the kid come along.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: No, I'm going to help you is scary as they can get. Um, so, oh my goodness.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I, oh yeah.
neocharge: And she mentioned she mentioned, I didn't really know if you were my father or my brother, but I loved you either way.
Leon Lionheartly: That,
neocharge: That fucking scene.
Leon Lionheartly: ah Oh, yeah.
neocharge: But yeah, they go on the beach and it goes all fucking Elden Ring. And Renoir kills everyone. And then Verso saves everyone.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Dude, it was brutal.
neocharge: So thankfully.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It was just fucking brutal.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, I did not expect that at all.
neocharge: It's just like... Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, you know, and and not to say that I like I know things, but I played so many games.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I've watched so many movies. I've so many television series, read books. Like I usually can tell where a story is at least going partially. Right. And this one, I'm like, okay, you know, we just had this like horribly sad thing that, all right, now you get a little bit of a fire.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You're going on your expedition. We're in the denouement. We're going to, and then they fucking just all get murdered. I mean, you don't even get to play. You're just watching.
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You're like, is the game over? Like, I don't know what to do because you can't do anything.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It sucked. And it was also off the awesome. Like, you know, at the same time, it was just, wow.
neocharge: Yeah. And then you're like, is this old Gustave? Like, it looks like old Gustave and he's just killing everyone with his cane.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: And why the fuck is he so old? I thought everyone 33 and up were dead. Like, what's going on?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: it It leaves you with such confusion and anger and motivation.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Man, interest. You know, you're like you're invested.
neocharge: yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you were already invested. Now you're heavily invested.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You're just like, I need to see this through, you sons of bitches. It's it's so masterstroke at storytelling, the way to start.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Did you guys catch who else was on the beach during that cutscene?
neocharge: Verso.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): talking about Verso?
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah, yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, he saves. He saves Gustave.
Leon Lionheartly: M-I-L. Yeah. Yeah, you're... yeah
neocharge: From the Elden Ring two-hand face guy.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: Fucking crazy.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): right
Leon Lionheartly: yeah you
neocharge: What in the Soulsborne is this?
Leon Lionheartly: you're you're yeah You're right, Caleb.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Fuck those things.
Leon Lionheartly: That was the oh shit moment in this game ah for me that early on. you're You're right. you You kind of get a sense that says, okay, there's only so many party members. So what how is the party going to be separate from the rest of the expedition? Because the expedition large.
Leon Lionheartly: And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, okay, I see where they're going. We have an older gentleman. Maybe it's going to tell a story or something. that And he just goes, nope you're decapitated.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: It was like, oh, you're like that? That's that's how you're going to this?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): He didn't give a shit. He just straight up murdered them instantly.
neocharge: i love what I love when Alan is like, you're old.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: And he's like, and just his fucking head rolls off.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh ah So cool.
OracleCardsAndGames: like insulting an old man in the supermarket. You just don't do it.
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. Like never again will I get mad at grandpa when he cuts me off in traffic.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Never again.
neocharge: um
OracleCardsAndGames: Exactly. Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you're like I'm not getting my head cut off today. Thanks.
neocharge: You're going to die now, Sonny. Yeah, ah the beach scene, dude. You're all motivated because the paintress supposedly painted away your, I'd say, future wife, girlfriend.
neocharge: ah They were very close, but there was kind of ah animosity between them. like They both had ah yeah and like roles in this world to play, and they were really focused on their...
neocharge: ah mission where they couldn't really have a relationship, but they still loved each other. Right. And that, that was, uh, explored with Luna very much. Like she was very focused on her mission because of her parents and being a scientist and finding out,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Fuck. definitely
neocharge: ah what's what the fuck is going on.
Leon Lionheartly: I think it's a little bit better than that.
neocharge: So yeah, 50 expeditioners and there's four left. ah we only We only think there's one. Gustave gets off the beach and he just runs into a bunch of corpses of frozen stone-like previous expeditioners.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): fuck
neocharge: Right? this This game is like, oh, punch, punch, punch. Just like, oh, you felt bad for that? Oh, well, guess what? And Gustave's like, go ahead.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but And like how interesting was it? i mean, you know in that moment, if you can remember how you felt when you see these these corpses and you're like, well, they're still there.
neocharge: Right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So the people in this world don't just gommage when they die naturally. like you didn't you know We didn't know that at the time, like what was going on.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And so I remember like staring and being like, are they statues? like I didn't know.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): was like, this doesn't make any sense. And then of course, you know we find out a little bit later why that is. um But you know It made me think about things. I'm not a particularly super religious person or anything, but you know in the games world and and and even in our world, but in the games world, I'm like, are their souls trapped?
Leon Lionheartly: So if it's bad.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like What the fuck? like This is like even more horrible than I thought. Everything is worse the more I play this and I want to continue even though I'm upset for them.
neocharge: hi
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and I was curious if you guys felt the same way when you saw the bodies.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): which You were like, what?
neocharge: Well, that blood bag of bodies too, just dripping.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yo, God.
neocharge: I'm like, what the fuck is going on?
Leon Lionheartly: ah
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I'll take it from another angle for you on this one. And and it's going I'm sorry if this is dark. So this is a true spoiler warning because I'm going to talk about some really dark stuff and I don't want to trigger any of our listeners.
neocharge: It's a spoiler cast, bro.
Leon Lionheartly: No, no, no. I don't want to trigger cause an emotional trigger for anybody that's a listener. But when Gustave is sitting there and he pulls out that gun
neocharge: Ah, it's art.
Leon Lionheartly: And then Lune snaps at him.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you.
Leon Lionheartly: Your moment with Sophie, Matt, was that was my moment in the game.
neocharge: Oh, okay.
Leon Lionheartly: Um, because I fought those demons before. um and to see Lunae just go, no, you need to step in line and remember the mission. Do not give up. You're not allowed to give up on everybody else.
Leon Lionheartly: You're not allowed to give up on my, you know, you're not allowed to escape your responsibility because you're in a moment of weakness really struck home with me. And if I'm quite frank, uh, if I'm getting quite honest, I'm pretty sure that's when I pulled out a wedding ring and said, would you please marry me?
Leon Lionheartly: Like,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, it's
neocharge: Yup.
Leon Lionheartly: ah But all jokes aside, that was my emotional depth because I have been there. I've seen my friends there. I've seen my comrades there. So to see him come go to that depth, I went, oh, I know what i know what that moment looks like.
Leon Lionheartly: I know what it feels like. And to see Lunay come along and pull him out of that that snap um made me immediately say, she's in my party 24-7. I'm sorry. She's got to stay there. um And she she quite frankly became one of my favorite characters.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): if
Leon Lionheartly: so
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's interesting, and I you know i don't want to push you too much because obviously it's ah it's a harsh thing, but um you know I've had people in my life going through similar things.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Luckily, I've been able to avoid having that affect me personally. you know that that's just That's a really hard thing. But what I think, and again, this is just purely conjecture because I've never been around it directly, um when she like straight up scolds him, when Lunay scolds him,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i I remember, like I mean, yes, that was a very harsh scene to watch. And in a good way. I mean, it was heavy and it should be heavy. He just watched like literally everybody who... He already lost people important to him. And then he just lost 46 at least other people that were important to him 20 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago. you know What is your mind going through?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But when Lunay scolds him, I remember thinking to myself... Boy, that was like the most perfect way to handle this situation, you know, and in her perspective. But also for, I'm going to call him Gustav.
neocharge: I'll get up.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): He might be Gustave. I've actually never looked up which way he's supposed to be pronounced.
neocharge: ah you know
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but But for Gustav, and I, you know, again, not being in the center of anything like that, but from your your ah angle, did Did you feel that way too? when she was Did she handle that the right way for the situation?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): or I mean, I know every situation is different, but you know.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah Yeah, absolutely. Every situation is different, but I will tell you, in the situation where he was where he was away from home, he was so he he had lost everybody that he was connected to.
Leon Lionheartly: He was isolated. He saw no way out. He had no way forward because if like he didn't know where he was. He didn't have any idea.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: so to see Lunay, a familiar face, who then gave him purpose, gave him direction, because that's where he was at. He had no purpose and direction, so at that point he was like, well, I guess there's no reason for me to be here.
Leon Lionheartly: um And you can never say that 100%, but I think she made the correct call.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): right
Leon Lionheartly: And what makes that really interesting, specifically because Lunay's parents, as we we willll we may discuss even more in depth later, is she's a logical scientific mind.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: But that shows great emotional intelligence as well.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know It's interesting because i felt right after she scolded him, and yeah I mean, you know it's super tense. It's a tense moment anyway. And you don't know how it's going to go because you you just saw a bunch of people get murdered on a beach and you're like, I just wanted to play this French game about beauty.
Leon Lionheartly: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What the fuck? you know But when she does that, when she scolds him, and and again, being a person who's just observing, this his reaction felt so real.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like it felt It just felt like, yeah, I mean, he hes sort of not really snapped out of it. That's not the right word I want to say, but I don't know how else to say
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-mm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But he just kind of... you know, moved forward from that moment. He didn't really belabor it until, you know, a little later where somebody's like, you want talk about it? And he's just like, no, we're good.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, you know, it's fine. Everything's like, for those who come after, we got to keep moving forward.
Leon Lionheartly: and
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, I just thought, holy shit. Like this, these people who wrote that, like the script writers, this is genius. And I'm like two hours into this game.
neocharge: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i I don't even know where we're going to go from here, but like, can I live in this world? You know I mean, it's horrible. There's things about it that are horrible, but I, I just, I'm so glad to hear, you and I'm not glad you to hear that perspective you know that way, but I'm so glad to hear it from somebody who can speak more to it because I did wonder, that was one of the scenes that stuck out early in the game for me where I was like, this is just, wow.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I can't even put it into words.
Leon Lionheartly: you so So the important thing, to and I know we're only two hours into this game, but I got to really point drive this ah this point home, is the thing that you got to keep in mind is what did she say when she showed up?
Leon Lionheartly: He was at wit's end. She didn't come across the the come across and slap him in the face and say, no, get it get your ass moving.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: She broke the ice. She connected with him on a level. And it kind of snapped him out of that that moment because she broke the ice.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. was
Leon Lionheartly: What did she say? I don't you know. I'm not entirely sure I'd want to be willing to do that. right You might want to put that down. And it it made him realize, oh shit, I'm not alone. And then she was able to establish a connection and then find common ground.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah no shit. We're in a suicide mission. Guess what? We don't get to quit. and And it kind of leads along that way, right? Because you don't you never want to be General Patton and just slap people. But at the same time, she found that common ground and then elevated him and brought him out of that moment. So it was great emotional intelligence from a character who's supposed to be the high IQ individual or scientific ah IQ, book smart, not emotional street smart.
Leon Lionheartly: So I thought that was really cool.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: um And that's why I fell in love with her right out the gate.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh yeah. She, I will just say this right now.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): She was my favorite character in the game. Uh, and I know that's, that might be like a weird, as far as like the way she was written. Cause I loved my, I love all of them. They're all great. It's like trying to pick your you know favorite child.
neocharge: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You're just not going to do that. Well, um, I don't know if it's because she's like a strong woman, and I've always had respect for strong women. I you know i just i i do. um But she... I don't know if that was the moment for me, but like man, she i it was so hard every time I had to take her out of my party after that because I was there in that moment with her, and I was like, fuck you guys. Can I have a can i have a million people in my party? like i don't but ah I don't want to pick my favorites. like Let me just have them all. They're all...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They're all my children. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I wanted a Final Fantasy 4 situation where like, can I just have them all in my party, please?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Always a struggle.
OracleCardsAndGames: So, so to kind of caveat, uh, I guess kind of piggyback off it. Um, I think the exact thing she says was you probably shouldn't do that or it'll kill us both or something like that.
neocharge: Mmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, and I just want to say that scene was the, that was the first scene in the entire game, the first of two where I had to go outside, smoke a cigarette, sit alone for half an hour.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah yeah
neocharge: Wow.
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, been there before. I've got a great friend group now that have helped me pull, helped pull me out of that. So I get it. It hit extremely, extremely close to home.
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, as somebody who's lost friends to a suicide, as somebody who's thought about that themselves. And it, it was done beautifully and it was done in the best way possible. I hate to say that about this type of topic, but it's,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right. That's tough. Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: the The way that the writers approached it was done properly. um it was done really well.
Leon Lionheartly: Yes.
OracleCardsAndGames: It really showed gave you like the first deep dive into, hey, this guy's fucked up. like Nobody expected anything like that to happen. He survived. He's fucked up.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, ah it was a very powerful scene and it's ah it impacted me for sure.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: And Lune coming in, i just love Lune's character the entire game. She was so focused on the mission and she did show some empathy there for Gustav. It is Gustav.
OracleCardsAndGames: For a split second.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: For a split second.
neocharge: Yeah. For split a second.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: But she's always like, it's honestly, when you look at it, she really understood the ah concept of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: And they were going and they're trying to get as much information as they can. and essentially until they die and record everything and leave their journal for the next expedition.
neocharge: So she's kind of in the mindset like, well, we're on, and like Bob said, we're on a suicide mission. What are you doing?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right.
neocharge: And kind of connected with her or connected with him first and was like, okay, now what are we going to do? And then, They see that 33 on the tree and you're like, now now what the fuck is going on?
neocharge: I have my L like, okay. So apparently Verso did that and he had my L.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: So.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): She's the only person, Lunay's the only person that I think has come closest to solving the trolley problem. like you know I mean, really, where she just handled it so much better than any argument I've heard in my 40 years on this earth.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And yeah i went to college.
Leon Lionheartly: it
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): We talked about crazy shit all the time, you know and and even outside of college.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I've heard this, that, and the other, but that's the closest in anything where I was like, fuck, she's right. It's just, it's, wow. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: You know what she did, right?
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: ah She used psychology to an effective manner um because the mission of the expedition is to stop the kill the paintress, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: But that's not what she told Gustav to do. She said, get your shit together and we're going to go to the rendezvous point. Because they're reaching the rendezvous point at that point in time in Gustav's mind was more achievable than taking out the paintress.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Because he wasn't he was like i don't know he's at a point where he's like, I don't know how the fuck we're going to do this. We just all got wiped, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right.
Leon Lionheartly: But I can make it to the rendezvous point.
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: And then making it to the rendezvous point is the next step to doing X, Y, Z. So i look this is why I love the writing in this game so much.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. And she's driven by the mission and Gustav is driven to find Maelle out of love and emotion. Right. So you have these two very differing perspectives of their intent and objective and what's driving them.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: So,
Leon Lionheartly: huh
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah. driving force of love and emotion is essentially the basis of the entire game.
neocharge: yeah Yeah, and family.
OracleCardsAndGames: Honestly, it's the entire story. I've summed up in two words.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, I did. I wanted to ask you guys before we started and I forgot. um And if you could limit, how do I say this If you want to describe this game, what it's about in one word, and it's it's difficult, do you have anything that comes to mind?
neocharge: Yeah, easily. Death.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What's your word, Matt?
neocharge: Death.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Death. What's your word, Bob?
Leon Lionheartly: Acceptance.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and What about you, Alex?
OracleCardsAndGames: grief. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Grief is the one that I...
neocharge: That grief.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yes, grief is the one where I'm like trying to describe this game to you know my niece or somebody who's important to me. that that you They're like, oh, you're always playing weird shit. What is this? ah What it's about? What's it about? And I'm like, I don't want to tell you because I didn't want to say grief because I don't want them to know.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and And I know that like you know some people need to be warned about that stuff, like absolutely do that the right way.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I agree.
neocharge: Huh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I think grief is... It's it's like... written all over this game. And when you know and you tell that to somebody, they might be like, why would you play something that makes you so upset?
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and you know and And to me, it's like, I feel like this game comes the closest to explaining to somebody what grief is like, you know like for somebody who's never experienced it, like a child.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Not that a child should necessarily play this, I feel. I mean, I think the game should be made for all ages. like That's great.
neocharge: You like feet, do you?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But this one is like, I hope you're mature when you play it so you understand what what they're going through. And and i I'm sorry to like derail us for a second, but I was genuinely curious because when the game was over, grief, that was it.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And i I was curious about you guys.
neocharge: yeah No, that's an awesome question. I want to change mine, though.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh.
neocharge: Existence. exist
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah, well.
neocharge: Because that theme...
OracleCardsAndGames: Also fair, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: What does it mean to exist?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: ah So yeah, you go through Spring Meadows, which was awesome. Every bit of it. It's just kind of the intro and the music and you get into the combat.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, you get to play finally.
neocharge: You get to play, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yes. but
Leon Lionheartly: ah yeah but Two hours in, I'm an emotional wreck, right?
neocharge: We're in a world we're like
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, exactly.
Leon Lionheartly: but
neocharge: And now you get to fuck shit up with your sword and your gun and Lunay's magic abilities. And man, the combat just shines in this game. It's incredible. ah Just the parry system. It's so unique.
neocharge: ah We'll get into the combat maybe endgame.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, because people, you know, I don't think we have 11 and a half hours that people want to listen to us and we could talk for 11 and a half hours.
neocharge: So, yeah.
neocharge: Well, well.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I would be down, but yeah.
neocharge: ah Yeah, no, we really could.
OracleCardsAndGames: ah absolutely.
neocharge: We really could. But yeah, we go through Spring Meadows. We get to Flying Waters. Oh, actually, when this is an important part. When you get out of Spring Meadows, what happens? There's a fucking world map!
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yes. Wham, bam.
neocharge: How many...
Leon Lionheartly: yes
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you, ma'am.
neocharge: How many games? it Dude, and my greatest or my best explanation of this game is it's the game that Square Enix gaslighted us into thinking we didn't want, but we actually wanted.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: they they cut Yeah, they went in and they did more action. They scrapped the world maps, but we get out and we see the world map and we're just like, holy shit.
neocharge: So...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah So square Square had said at one point in time, and I don't think they were being mean, but they were like, well, it just doesn't make sense.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like We don't have to do that anymore.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And while I can understand, like sure, if you're going for realism or whatever, but if you're going for realism, why my favorite character has a sword the size of a fucking truck. and That's not real.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah i mean like Maybe it is with Jenova cells and shit. Sorry, spoilers, all that shit for Seven. But like... yeah What? You know, I'm not playing this because if I wanted to do something real, I'd have to go and buy eggs.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And that's not fun. So let me let me just like have this world map.
neocharge: Yes.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I do think when we were younger and world maps were more... ah you know like a creative necessity, because you know how are you gonna explore a whole world on 16-bit? ah you know You're not really gonna be able to get fully 3D towns and stuff that are to scale.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But it let your imagination sort of fill in the blanks. And that's something that this game did while also keeping things somewhat grounded.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, again, Masterstroke, I don't know how the hell you guys did this, but when you've got something that lets me fill in the blanks on my own, and then you tell me the other important stuff the the world really comes to life.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't know if that's just me, the way that I take stories, but I thought, like you just said, you get to the world map and you're just like, well, fuck me sideways.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Look at this. like I knew about it in the trailer, but being here now is just like, thank you so much.
neocharge: Right.
neocharge: Exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): we got you know It's like tears of joy for something as simple as I can just walk back there and then I'm in the zone again. like This is great.
neocharge: Right. Yeah. It was so awesome coming out of that.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: And ah by the way, for our listeners, we are out of the prologue and into act one, ah Gustav, because that happens after the beach clusterfuck scene. So yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): The massacre.
neocharge: but Yeah. The beach massacre.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Yep. So yeah, we we get into the world map and it's like, go to the flying waters. And my God. The Flying Waters.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What a cool zone, right?
neocharge: What an awesome... Dude, the the level design. It probably has to be one of my favorite tracks. I think it's called Goblue in Flying Waters.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure, yeah.
neocharge: And it's the...
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep. yep
neocharge: And every battle or every unique ah level has its own battle music, which is just absolutely incredible. The soundtrack is huge. And that Flying Waters music is so fucking cool.
neocharge: And I just love the level. The level design and Yeah, it's awesome. It kind of reminds me of the Coral Highlands in Monster Hunter World.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, sure.
neocharge: like it's It's underwater, but it's not really underwater. And you're like, why is this the way it is?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, is Gravity fucked here? I don't know, but I'm here for Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: you
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, right?
Leon Lionheartly: It honestly reminded me of Blitzball in Final Fantasy X or any of the water traveling.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: why Why am I able to sit underwater for 20 minutes without taking a breather or a mask? Who knows? it's It's part of the world. it's part of the It's what you said. allows you to fill the imagination um because the the key behind ah good storytelling is being able to get the reader to ah sus suspend this ah suspenable belief, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: yeah yeah
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, well, right everybody's been part of it. Well, no, technically you can't do that because well you can't do it. Star Wars isn't accurate because there's no explosion to space. Who cares?
neocharge: Star Wars.
Leon Lionheartly: and enjoy Enjoy what's going on.
neocharge: Lightsabers.
Leon Lionheartly: And I think that's, yeah. Oh, lightsabers, the farce. Um,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Anakin and Spock are friends.
neocharge: law
Leon Lionheartly: but
neocharge: and
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, fuck midichlorians.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah Oh my goodness.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): We're not, no, absolutely not.
Leon Lionheartly: We're not doing that one.
neocharge: I'm a huge Star Wars fan. We're all huge Star Wars fans.
Leon Lionheartly: ah But yeah, that's that's exactly what Flying Waters was to me. I was like, this makes zero sense. Am I underwater? Is the water above me? And then I eventually said, you know what? It doesn't matter because the level design, the music, the battles, everything else is what's important anyways.
neocharge: Exactly.
Leon Lionheartly: And that was the that was the moment where you went, oh, this is a souls-like thing. or Souls-like game when you finally hit an expedition flag and you go, wait, I just killed that guy.
Leon Lionheartly: um That's when I went, oh, this is a Souls-like, because it was also the first map where you realized that you could actually truly get lost. um And I got lost a few times.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: um I believe, if I'm not mistaken, you there, Alex, you you mentioned something about getting lost in that area.
OracleCardsAndGames: I was, so little bit of backstory here.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: i was on a discord call with Bob and I was lost in flying waters for, I shit you not three hours.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Wow.
neocharge: oh
Leon Lionheartly: yeah ha
OracleCardsAndGames: what
neocharge: Holy shit.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Wow.
OracleCardsAndGames: I could not figure out where I needed to go.
Leon Lionheartly: ah
OracleCardsAndGames: The only place I knew that I could go to was the, uh, the boss that kept killing me. Cause I didn't understand any of the game's of mechanics yet. Um, yeah. And then finally Bob was like, no, nope.
OracleCardsAndGames: That that's where you gotta go.
neocharge: Did Bob say three simple words?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Follow the music. Did you guys notice that?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah and Oh, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: No, he he told, he he told, he told me about the, uh, glowing paths and that was, that was my hint.
neocharge: Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: And that actually was what I followed for the entirety of the game from that point on.
neocharge: Oh, yeah. Yeah, all the the light and fires.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm pretty sure when I discovered that like that, that the music changed when you were on the golden path. and like you know
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I remember, i you know because everything that had happened to that point, it was just it kept raising the bar for me, where I was like, holy fuck. That was probably when I was worried it was going to overtake my favorite game of all time, and that my entire identity was just lost.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Because I was like, how do you guys keep nailing this?
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Also, Like, fuck yourselves. Like, I mean, you know, in a good way, I was just so happy to figure that out.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And it was not everybody does, you know, but I do pay attention to music more than your average gamer probably. ah But i I just remember thinking, you know you You go left, you go right, the music changes slightly when you're in like a certain part of the zone, and you're like, wait.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So it actually helped me because I'm an explorer. I like to cross my T's, dot my I's everywhere I go. ill I break games all the time. It's fun. But I was like, I know not to go this way because this music has been consistent. So now I can just like fuck off to this side of the map and get an item that's 400 levels stronger than it should be.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And that was awesome.
neocharge: Mm-hmm. Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So yes, I'm so glad that you guys figured that out and and you know experienced that because it was so cool.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, for for me it was going off the path and instead of going to the boss I was supposed to, I decided it would be a good idea to get stuck at the yeah first chromatic that you run into and decided to do that at whopping level 4.
neocharge: Ah.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh my gosh.
neocharge: Yep. Yeah, and and this is this is the crazy part, right?
Leon Lionheartly: And
neocharge: Like, Caleb, you were mentioning, yeah I just went in and fucked up that chromatic abest, and I was like, ah you're not supposed to be able to beat that because it one-shots you.
neocharge: And, you I mean, if if you are skilled enough, you can basically take anything down in this game and do a no-hit battle.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: And that's incredible. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And i I remember I texted Matt because I was like, I just, you know, whatever, I beat it at like level four, five, seven, whatever.
Leon Lionheartly: there,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I think I turned level like 17 or I mean, I just, you know, immediately and I sent you a screenshot and I was like, I don't like, is this good?
neocharge: crazy
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, I didn't know. And then you just, you your first message back, you were like, I knew you'd be that fucking guy.
neocharge: Did I break it?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. And I was like, well, I mean, all like like he killed me twice, like my party members. He didn't kill me, but I learned how to parry him. And then I was like, oh, I can just do this. He's got like four movesets.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'll just sit here for 25 minutes. And then that's when he was like, you're not supposed to do that yet, you dick. And I was like, well, I did.
neocharge: Yeah. Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then i broke it. So I'm sorry. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: you you did
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: Oh, this is impressive.
Leon Lionheartly: You did the grandma's boy scene when they're playing DDR, and then he breaks the high record and he goes, wait, is that good? I don't know. Oh!
neocharge: Did I break it?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But i I was sincere. Like, I wasn't trying to humblebrag. I seriously, I was like, am I in the right place? Like, I thought it was the boss for the level. You know, I just, because I just assumed I was like, shit, this game's crazy.
Leon Lionheartly: oh
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then he's just like, no, the chromatics. And I was like, what is that? I mean, I know what the word chromatic means, but I was like, I don't know who the, who are, I mean, these things look like they're out of a child's play, ah you know, children's book or something or oops.
neocharge: Yeah, it looked like a pink sheep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, and then I was like, go fight Sprong and report back.
Leon Lionheartly: Ah! yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I did not know what that meant.
neocharge: I know, exactly. Yeah, Flying Waters was so awesome. And the boss at the end, then you get one of the best characters in the game. One of the most key characters in the game. Mael. Mael.
neocharge: And i love what I read online regarding this character. They're like, clear obscure expedition 33 isn't about the art or the journey or the paintress. It's about turning the 16 year old little girl into a fucking nuclear bomb.
OracleCardsAndGames: like okay Exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: That blew my mind. Like I finished the game low fifties. I was in act three at level.
neocharge: Really? Wow.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. I was in act three in the mid twenties. Um, when I, when I say I grinded the game, i went, um, and for, so it made no sense to me why this 16 year old girl with a rapier was breaking the damage barrier out the gate in act three.
Leon Lionheartly: I will.
Leon Lionheartly: I will.
OracleCardsAndGames: Or in in the... Sorry, not breaking the damage barrier, but hitting 9,999 damage out the gate in Act 3. But other people were struggling to get above 1,000.
Leon Lionheartly: that
OracleCardsAndGames: like it
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm like, this is a child.
neocharge: Right. Well, yeah, but she's the only, yeah, she's the only painter.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then when you figure it out, you're like, oh, okay.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, see see she's like she's literally Jesus.
neocharge: Or one of three, I think.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Yep, I am Jesus.
OracleCardsAndGames: Come on, man.
Leon Lionheartly: here
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. Hmm. yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, I akin her to Shauna from Legend of Dragoon, if you guys have played that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. i
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, good call.
OracleCardsAndGames: It was the same concept the entire game. I was like, okay, this is starting look a little familiar.
neocharge: me
neocharge: I would tell you the character that I compared her to, but it is in tales of symphonia and it is a huge spoiler for people that have not played it. So I will not say it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, i haven't played I haven't played Symphonia yet. Don't say anything.
neocharge: Oh, gotcha. Tales fan. We got to talk after the cast.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): man
neocharge: um Yeah. So we get my L we got our three party or three character party gone and we get to the ancient sanctuary ah ah were some really weird enemies here. Just like, why are these puppets attacking me? And they're making weird noises.
neocharge: Remember the ancient sanctuary right before the gestural village?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Wild.
neocharge: um
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like what?
neocharge: Yeah. Insane. Just crazy enemy diversity.
OracleCardsAndGames: i've got I've got a take on that one. I've got a take on that one.
neocharge: Go ahead.
OracleCardsAndGames: um I was still on the call with Bob on this one. And I swear to God, for me, for some reason, the single hardest boss in the entire game was the ultimate Saka Patate.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: I died over a dozen times trying to do that fight. Meanwhile, Pinterest, first try. like
neocharge: Shit.
OracleCardsAndGames: any of any there There was a super boss that I did first try. We'll we'll get into that one when we get to the Clea first try.
neocharge: Which super boss? Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: No.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: um Did that when I got home from work today.
neocharge: I have a story on that one.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah Nice.
neocharge: Bob was here for that story. um Yeah, those enemies were just weird and there was like a trebuchet. It's just like fucking you up. And then it was really cool because they showed you, like you had you can do your ah long range shoot ah attack and you could just break them.
neocharge: It's crazy. And just render them useless. And every time they died, they were just... barrel India. i know I, dude, I died from one of those. Like the, the timing on that was a little tricky.
neocharge: So yeah,
Leon Lionheartly: that's, that's what I want to say. This is one of those. So this game has inspirations, right? We were talking about Bioshock Infinite. I'm, I'm convinced that the design was Bioshock Infinite, right? This, I think was a Final Fantasy inspiration.
Leon Lionheartly: Um, and Caleb already knows where I'm going with this. You probably too is Matt is, is when you're dealing with a certain enemy and when you kill it, particularly in Final Fantasy eight, Oh my God, that thing drove me up a wall.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yep
Leon Lionheartly: Um, You get hit by meteor. You can kill it, but it still says, guess what? I get one more attack and it's going to be the entire party. I saw that and went, oh, this is a behemoth.
neocharge: Me
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: um That was my, that was my, oh my gosh moment. Spoilers for Final Fantasy, but it's happening in like four of the games. So, um but yeah, that, that was that when they suicide in and then they just blow at your party.
Leon Lionheartly: You're, and I'm full of, For me, I always dodged it. i could That was the one thing I could never get the timing down on.
neocharge: too.
Leon Lionheartly: um So I just said, screw it. I'm going dodge it because they're dead anyways. um But yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What would you do if I told you that in French, saccabotate meant behemoth? It doesn't.
neocharge: Oh!
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): it I'm just fucking with you.
Leon Lionheartly: Holy shit.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): doesn't.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, okay.
neocharge: Oh, goddammit.
OracleCardsAndGames: I was like, there's no way.
Leon Lionheartly: it
neocharge: Goddammit.
OracleCardsAndGames: It sounds like sack of potatoes, man.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, that's nonsense.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: There's no way.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm sorry.
neocharge: Oh, you sold that ah well.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I had to. I'm sorry. it i had to.
neocharge: You sold that so well. I thought you were...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you. Yeah,
OracleCardsAndGames: you really do.
neocharge: Yeah, the behemoth.
Leon Lionheartly: You know what? Hold on. I'm going to look it up.
neocharge: Yeah, behemoth and that...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah I don't know if it means anything. i have no idea.
Leon Lionheartly: Holy shit. um According to what I'm getting out of this, and holy shit, you guys want to know?
neocharge: Wait, what?
Leon Lionheartly: I just Googled it for their listeners.
neocharge: Please. Please.
Leon Lionheartly: It means bag of potatoes.
neocharge: Oh my god.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sack of potatoes.
neocharge: That's funny.
OracleCardsAndGames: Sack of potatoes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. Jesus.
OracleCardsAndGames: i told I've said that.
Leon Lionheartly: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I should have known that, actually.
Leon Lionheartly: but
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i mean, really, I thought about it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Sack of potatoes. Sack of potatoes.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah. but we'll We'll get to them, but that explains a lot of the characters that ah that we we meet later on.
neocharge: Wow.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Do you know say sack of potatoes in Japanese?
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's being...
neocharge: Sock a potato.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm just kidding. Behemoth. Yeah.
neocharge: I don't know. suck up with dot
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah he
neocharge: Yeah, anyway. Goddamn.
Leon Lionheartly: It's not a tattoo!
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Sugga patote.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Actually, i did want to ask you, Matt, for just a second, not to backtrack ah because I do like the pace that we're going because it's ah it's a game.
neocharge: Suggie. Sure.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): we got We got to get to the meat, right? um What did you guys think of the mansion where we found Mael? Like the first time you went.
neocharge: Oh, yeah. i Man, i was I wanted to touch on that. ah The moment I get in there and hear that track, one of my favorites in the games. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Very cool.
neocharge: And I was like, okay, so this mansion is kind of the anchor of this world. And I knew it was special and I knew it didn't belong. And I immediately thought, hmm, this ah makes things interesting.
neocharge: And this is out of the reality I think we're in and in another reality. So yeah, the mansion was awesome. I love that track.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Okay.
neocharge: And then one more thing.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): what about What about you, Alex? I'm curious. Let me just you know get a round of everybody and then... ah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, so the mansion actually pissed me off because I wanted to open up every single fucking door.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah but
OracleCardsAndGames: ah so it It's like, oh, well, um obviously, you know, what to get my elf, leave. But I couldn't open but anything, and it pissed me off. Loan me old later in the game, you can't, but that's beside the point.
OracleCardsAndGames: The soundtrack, though, phenomenal.
Leon Lionheartly: Okay.
OracleCardsAndGames: And it i edit for me, it didn't like I didn't quite put together anything just yet out of that until I saw it again later on.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, for sure. Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, I was similarly, i was just like, the fuck does this mean? yeah You know, I try to let things just happen to me. But then with this, I was like, there's a like, what is going on in this game? I love it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What about you, Bob? what were your thoughts when you approached the mansion for the first time?
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: ah So from a storytelling perspective, I knew this thing was important um because it just didn't fit within the world, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: um this This game was silly and goofy at this point, so I totally understand that. But it was my moment that went, ah, my JRPG instincts kicked in.
Leon Lionheartly: And I immediately went to the to the dining room area, and I was walking along the walls. I'm inspecting every aspect of this. um I don't know if it's my JRPG or my tabletop RPG ah background, but my combination said I have to inspect every little thing with detail.
Leon Lionheartly: And then I found the candlestick.
neocharge: All right.
Leon Lionheartly: And I went, oh, you can turn a candlestick? And then I turned that. And then I was like... but I heard a click, but I didn't see anything move. So i was like, there's got to be more to it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right.
Leon Lionheartly: And then I went to the next thing and the next thing. um And that that kind of gave me... That's when I knew not only was this a good game, this was it a JRPG that gave a callback because that is a callback 100% to classic JRPGs where you're like, oh, this is just a story beat, and then you missed something because you didn't click move the candlestick, right?
Leon Lionheartly: um
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: And then, of course, Matt gave me a hint later on that I didn't think about um where he's like, just channel your inner Mario 64. Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: that's That's the same hint that Bob gave me, actually.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Excellent. I love that my hint transcended two people.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: That's awesome. ah When you go through the mansion as Verso, did you catch that? Did you catch anything in that dining room? Maybe a specific bed? Did you guys catch that?
OracleCardsAndGames: No.
neocharge: It was a dog bed. And it said, this is Minoko's bed.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: so So I didn't...
neocharge: Minoko is painted from the dog.
Leon Lionheartly: Yes.
neocharge: He's your best friend.
Leon Lionheartly: So I didn't catch that. But the one thing that I didn't i didn't catch, but I noticed afterwards is which room do you find my Ellen?
neocharge: yeah
neocharge: What do you mean?
OracleCardsAndGames: Alicia's room.
neocharge: my
Leon Lionheartly: It's in Alicia's room.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah. You find her in Alicia's room.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: i Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: And of course, you don't realize it until later, but it was like a whole...
neocharge: oh that's right. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: You do. Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. For me, it was noticing that their theme songs were exactly the same with different words.
neocharge: Yep. Foreshadowed.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: please Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yep.
neocharge: And dude, their eyes were the same. Alicia and Myel, their eyes were the same. And was like, thesee they're connected. i i thought it was more of time travel, but I didn't know was.
OracleCardsAndGames: really. I mean, at least he only has one eye, so I guess they're kind of the same.
neocharge: right right yeah uh yeah you do find my own that room that's crazy but yeah uh caleb i think you're i was like did you get the the uh collect all the records and you're like yeah and i was like there's no way you didn't look up the one in the dining room and you're like but i just like clicked on everything and i was like there's no way because i didn't get it i had to look that one up um
Leon Lionheartly: you
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Well, it's hilarious because I kind of like Bob it was the same thing. I, and Alex, I was so worried. so I was like, why can't I go in these fucking rooms? Like, what, what am I missing?
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was afraid I'd never be able to go back ah just from a gameplay perspective. I mean, I thought it was a cool set piece, but um I found one of the, one of the candles and I turned it, heard a click, ran around to every fucking door thinking one of these doors unlocked.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I just found that. And that's not it at all. And then, you know, i found another one and then I just got mad and left because I couldn't figure out what it did.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then i think there are four of them, right?
Leon Lionheartly: Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): To unlock the way.
neocharge: Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. I naturally had found the four like throughout other visits when I was just pissed off, but I still didn't know what it did. And then I discovered that little alcove. Had no idea that they were related.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like Like, none at all.
neocharge: Thanks.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And so when Matt was asking me, I was like, fuck you. I turned candles. What are you talking about? Like, I had no clue. And yeah yeah, so that was... That was fun. i was like, I'm going to flex my RPG prowess and just click on everything except for the trash guy 10 times because I am old and nobody's perfect.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: i'm I'm convinced, by the way, that the you said the trash can guy.
OracleCardsAndGames: you know Yep.
neocharge: think
Leon Lionheartly: You mentioned you remember the the door um in the prologue where the people are banging. Spoiler for Borderlands for another game. I'm just going to give 15 seconds.
Leon Lionheartly: I think that's a reference to Baldur's Gate 3.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, I hope it is.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep. I actually agree with you on that one.
Leon Lionheartly: Okay. okay All right. So you know what I'm talking about, gentlemen. All right.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh yeah, for sure
neocharge: was it Was it Asterion banging the bear in there?
Leon Lionheartly: No, no, no, no, no.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but
Leon Lionheartly: It's a...
OracleCardsAndGames: No, no, no, no, no. I'm,
neocharge: i didn't play Baldur's Gate 3.
Leon Lionheartly: No, no, no.
neocharge: I just saw, like, bear banging.
Leon Lionheartly: All right. So there's a door, and they tell you to go away.
neocharge: and
Leon Lionheartly: But because it's Boulder's Day 3, you can break down the door or lockpick it.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: But when you do, and this going to sound vulgar, but I don't care, it's a bugbear banging the fuck out of an ugly-ass 300-pound troll.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: Hell yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's nuts.
Leon Lionheartly: And it's nuts.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's nuts. I mean, you're just like, okay, I deserve that. I broke the door down. That's on me. Oops.
Leon Lionheartly: This was another one of those. This is why i'm i'm I'm calling these out because this game has inspirations. And that was another one. um But yeah, that manner, ah rolling this all the way back, Caleb, I'm so glad you were just like me because I thought I was crazy for a minute there.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: um I was like, I can't be the only one who did this, right? um So thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Of course.
neocharge: That's,
OracleCardsAndGames: I didn't even notice the candles.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank
OracleCardsAndGames: I'll be completely honest.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No.
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, I, I, when I play RPGs for the first, first time through, i tend just speed run.
Leon Lionheartly: you.
OracleCardsAndGames: And then the second time I'll go through and I'll go and do everything, which is what I'm in the middle of right now.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): sure
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, and so like I got to the manor, couldn't open up any of the doors. I left. Um, yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. ah The manner was incredible.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: I love the music the moment I got in there and I just wanted to explore everything. And yeah, I tried every door. Right. Uh, Yeah. You, you get out of the manager manner and, uh, you get out of ancient sanctuary and you hit gestural village.
neocharge: This place is crazy. You meet the gestrals. They're so fucking funny. And you're like, okay, now we have walking, talking paint brushes. I mean, it makes sense to the theme, but why?
OracleCardsAndGames: It was awesome.
neocharge: i know it's great. i love it. Uh, Yeah, Gestural Village was awesome. And then they're like, oh, go to the chef's house. And you're like, oh, chef. and It's just because they can't spell and it's the chief's house.
neocharge: And if you look at the sign later, when they get corrected, they corrected it and they put an I in there.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, I missed that.
neocharge: Did you guys know that? Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah is that Is that a reference to the Snickers commercial?
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: Maybe.
Leon Lionheartly: You know what I'm talking about, right?
neocharge: Not really.
Leon Lionheartly: All right, so back in the night late 90s, I want to say early 2000s, there was that commercial of a guy who was doing an entire, he was painting an end zone in a football field, and he was painstakingly painting it out.
OracleCardsAndGames: That's it.
Leon Lionheartly: And then afterwards, he finishes, and he's looking at his work, and some dude comes walks up and says, nice work, but who are the chefs? Because he was supposed to write chiefs.
neocharge: Oh, interesting. Okay.
OracleCardsAndGames: That wasn't how I correlated that one.
neocharge: That's probably a call out.
OracleCardsAndGames: I actually thought of ah the original Oblivion because there's a whole side quest for the Fighters Guild where they scribble it corrected name on a sign. That's what I thought of when I saw it.
neocharge: Nice.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i did I did want to bring this up because and I don't actually know if this was their intent but do you guys know um what I'm probably going to pronounce it wrong and my wife's going to yell at me I think it's pronounced jesso um it's an art a style of art do you know any of you know what that means you've heard of that before
neocharge: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing about this game.
Leon Lionheartly: okay I've heard of it.
OracleCardsAndGames: No.
neocharge: And
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Okay, so I guess it's not a style of art, but it's used in a style of art. um Typically, like sculptures. um And so I thought, gestural, gesso, like, is it close?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Because they're like little sculpted things. Like, they you know, they're people, but they're not like human. And i that was another one of the hints early on where I was like, we're in a fucking painting.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, there's something, like this world, because the rules don't apply.
neocharge: and
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): We're underwater. we Things are, you know... the the art team did such a great job making things real, but also not like when you could see the Eiffel tower in the background, that's like bent and like twisted to the side, you know, the things like that, there were these, these hints.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah And then, and I'm jumping a little bit ahead here, but like Verso, his name is very important. And I just recognized the translation right away. I'll get to it when he comes up ah like an act too. But um I was curious if anybody else thought about like what the gestrals were, even after you, you discover that you're in a painting. like what did you think i mean To me, it's like it's a kid bringing things to life, you know not really knowing ah how to create something the right way. and And of course, we find out that a lot of that is true later on.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um
neocharge: Hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I thought, because gesso is a, it's i I want to say it's like a type of glue that's used in sculpture. And I thought that maybe that's why they why they were named gestrals.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, so the so the the the thing that – I'm glad you made that jump there, Caleb, because i recognize the dolls, um and I don't know – they may be called literally called chestural dolls, but they are a type of doll that's used in arts and crafts.
neocharge: Hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, know
Leon Lionheartly: You can go buy them at a Hobby Lobby, and they –
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Shit, I didn't know that. That's like way more... That makes way more sense.
OracleCardsAndGames: what you're talking about, Bob.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh.
OracleCardsAndGames: They're used for posing for artwork. Yep. for posing for artwork
Leon Lionheartly: Bingo.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Huh.
Leon Lionheartly: That's what they're used for.
OracleCardsAndGames: yep
Leon Lionheartly: So when I saw that and then saw the paintbrushes, I was like, for me, I saw it as more of the thematics of the game and not a literal translation.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Huh. Yeah, I did get stuck on translating a lot of things, I will fully admit. you know from the From the soundtrack too, because a lot of the things they say, you know i wouldn't recognize every word because, i again, I'm not fluent.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like My wife is very fluent.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But also, little fun fact, um I'm going to get the, I can't remember all of it ah the right way, but they in in one of the songs, they say things like dim sum tum, or like it's like little words, and I'm sitting there hearing it over and over.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i'm like, what the fuck does this mean? And so I called my wife downstairs and I was like, what are they saying? And she would recognize the phrases that were actual translations, some of the stuff that I would too, but she was just like, it's fucking gibberish.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't know. So then after the game, like way after the game, I looked it up and I was like, oh, it is just like gibberish.
neocharge: but
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's just like when people sing in a choral in a choir and they're just saying like, like fa la la la, like that doesn't really mean anything. You could argue that it means notes like fa and la, but like they were just saying,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): words to sort of make the syllables and the um cadence of the song move on. And then they would say things that were translated. But I felt so stupid because I was like sitting there for like 20 minutes, like, what are they trying to tell me in this song? And sometimes it helped.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Other times it didn't.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I definitely focused a lot on translation things because they kind of tell you a lot of the story ah in a good way. I mean, it's not so much that they're just ruining it for you, but it's enough if you pay attention that you're like, wow,
neocharge: Oh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So I was curious if anybody else you know did that for certain locations or things like gestrals, things like the gommage that I mentioned earlier, meaning scrub. but ah
Leon Lionheartly: and
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know Just wondered.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. so So to backpedal a little bit, um, c specifically the dolls, uh, Bob's talking about, those are, uh, called gestalta dolls.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: They're little mannequins used for, uh, sketch work.
neocharge: Oh.
Leon Lionheartly: which is which is why by the way Which is amazing.
neocharge: um
Leon Lionheartly: Which, by the way, um i'm going to ask this pose this question to the group, but I'm going to ask you first, Matt. um Did you catch the reference to the notorious meme in the gestural village you first played?
neocharge: Oh, yeah. The one where he's sitting in the fire and he's like, this is fine.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: Greatest point in the game.
Leon Lionheartly: but
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: No questions.
Leon Lionheartly: i i was I only asked because that was my point in my game at the game where I went, okay, so they they're telling a serious story, but they're not willing to always take themselves too serious.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: This is fine.
neocharge: Exactly.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, I was over at your house and you showed me that and I was like, I got to play this fucking game now.
Leon Lionheartly: and yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: I hate to say it, I think that was the turning point was the meme.
neocharge: That was the cell.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I was sitting down here by myself.
neocharge: Nice.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): that For listeners, I have a basement that's like semi-finished for my game room. So i was sitting down here. ah My wife had gone upstairs to like shower or something, and I ran into that. And I said to nobody, because I was by myself, I just said, I fucking love this game.
neocharge: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like i know Because it was perfect. And ah again, like to to compare to other classic RPGs,
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They, you know, back in like the Super Nintendo days, more than anything else, they also had fun. They had a sense of humor, you know, and I think a lot of RPGs now, and it's not a slight when you're playing something like the Witcher or maybe that's a bad example because they have a great sense of humor too, but they, you know, they take themselves so seriously and they just, they're they're too afraid to have fun, you know, older Final Fantasies.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): had fun. they would They would just have ridiculous things that would make you giggle, you know, like, oh, this is this is fun. And it doesn't ruin the game. It doesn't ruin the mood. It actually adds to it. And so when I saw what you're referring to in Gestral Village, I was just like, goddammit, this is, that thank you.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i fucking love this game.
neocharge: Yeah, it was awesome. I definitely picked up that meme. It was crazy. ah Yeah, Jester Village was so awesome. The yeah the music, everything, it was kind of like your first ah village or town you ah encounter.
neocharge: I think it's kind of like the only one, right? Where you have merchants, and i mean, merchants are all over the game, but a specific area.
Leon Lionheartly: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: ah And then you you get into the arena and you meet our girl CL. I use CL a little bit. She was my least used character, unfortunately.
neocharge: ah I thought she was really awesome. I thought she had a really cool story. But you find out she's alive and she's like, oh my God. she finds out you guys are alive and she's like, well, let's fucking do this. We're on this expedition.
neocharge: And, uh, you get her. And that, that fight was a little hard. Uh, and whoever you used for that fight, they got a pretty awesome weapon. I used, uh, Gustav, not my L.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, you did. Yes,
neocharge: Yeah. My L had the best weapon for sure. It was a rapier that, uh, started you in verso stance. It's so broke, but,
Leon Lionheartly: Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Time out, folks.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): sir.
neocharge: uh,
Leon Lionheartly: You got a unique weapon depending on who you used for that fight?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yes sir
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, God. I love this game even more.
neocharge: Who'd you use?
OracleCardsAndGames: i I did it three separate times so I could get the weapon I wanted. Yeah,
neocharge: oh wow. You just like killed it and then reloaded your save.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah I was like, okay, well, that's... I don't want this one. I'm not going this character. yeah and I ended up getting one from my L.
neocharge: Yeah. I didn't know it until about, I don't know, five hours after the fact. And I was like, God damn it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I had no idea. i just happened to use my L because she was broken as hell.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah said, I was like, yeah, this fight will be fine.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And her weapon was even more broken. It was great.
neocharge: crazy yeah me too
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, it stays her best weapon for ah quite a long time, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Wow. i
Leon Lionheartly: I used Gustav because I was using the weapon that never drops you below C. And he has the ability that if you're in C stance, you can remove all status effects and heal at 100% health.
Leon Lionheartly: So it was a duel.
neocharge: oh
OracleCardsAndGames: You're thinking of Verso.
Leon Lionheartly: It was, yeah, was it was a duel. Well, nevermind. Nevermind. I used Gustav because of the one-shot capability um later on.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Because overcharge at that point was probably the most broke ability in the game at that point.
neocharge: Oh yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. I mean, for those who come after
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep. and Until you level up with Miles' relationship.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: four
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, it is the most broken thing in the game.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: I don't know.
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: it just It just felt natural to use Gustav because of the way the play. Now I'm remembering the way the cutscenes worked out. It seemed more natural. But I did not know that. Thank you. Thank you. Because now I want to replay the game.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: You should replay it anyway.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. I'm going to replay it in French.
Leon Lionheartly: Ooh.
neocharge: I'm going to do New Game Plus at some point.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I almost played it in French the first time um because I played Final Fantasy VII and so remake and rebirth in Japanese because I did study Japanese in college.
neocharge: Ooh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I did it in English first because I didn't want to read a bunch of shit and have to take forever. You know, I i wanted the story and the voice actors are actually pretty good in that one. But in this, I was like, man, if I were as fluent as my wife, I absolutely would play it in French first.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I just, I would have, and I decided not to. And the, you know, the voice actor is wonderful in this, ah but for my new game, plus I'm definitely going to play it in French. It's probably going to take me a little bit longer, but have to, you know,
neocharge: Oh yeah.
neocharge: Right, right. Yeah. ah So yeah, you get a unique weapon. ah And then they're like, well, to cross the sea, you got to go find this, basically this mythical creature, Eskia.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yes.
neocharge: And, oh, so good.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): More like EA.
neocharge: Yes, Skia.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, SGA is the real relationship option in the whole game.
Leon Lionheartly: laughter
neocharge: ah oh my God.
OracleCardsAndGames: i I only romance Luna because SGA wasn't an option.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: anything Any entity that's filled with wine is a winner in my book.
OracleCardsAndGames: All right.
neocharge: so
OracleCardsAndGames: Exactly. As long as it's not like barefoot, yeah, we're good. Yep.
neocharge: Right. yeah Yeah. It's got to be good wine. ah So yeah, you you go and you find SGA and man, his his introduction is awesome. I don't know if you got this throughout the game, but he's the one that saves CL and he's kind of like the
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: God or the aim the the guardian angel of this world to protect everyone, him and two others, right? It's a trio. And Francois, right?
neocharge: When you're like...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And we don't we don't know at the time like what that means.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know You're like, oh, what the hell?
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So you don't know what to expect right when you're going to find this mythical thing that everybody says is bullshit, except for the gestals.
neocharge: Exactly.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like The people back in Lumiere were like, oh, we've heard stories, but what does that mean?
neocharge: Yeah. Sometimes I'm we, and sometimes I'm woo. Woo. and Sometimes I'm a little bit of both.
Leon Lionheartly: how
neocharge: ah I guess you could say I'm wee-woo-wee-woo.
OracleCardsAndGames: Would you say the truth?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm woo-wee. Woo-wee.
neocharge: Woo-wee. Woo-wee.
Leon Lionheartly: um cu
OracleCardsAndGames: Versa the angst lord right there.
Leon Lionheartly: ah You're right. ah can i
neocharge: SK is awesome.
Leon Lionheartly: Can I say for SK right there, Francois, when he goes to the other side, I just want to give... I don't know who the... I haven't looked. Whoever the mocap artist was ah for Gustav, that dude deserves an award.
Leon Lionheartly: Because if you look in game, when they go and they ask about The Rock... You know what I'm talking about.
neocharge: I do.
Leon Lionheartly: you know what I'm talking about, right?
neocharge: I do. I think it's the same. the The mocap actor is the same voice actor as Esquie.
Leon Lionheartly: okay
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah, i think you're right, actually. I think I did look that up.
Leon Lionheartly: Okay, he just deserves an award because when they ask about that painted rock and ah Francois freaks out.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Did you guys catch what Gustav actually does in there? And our listeners aren't going to be able to understand, but he kind of gives the rest of the party this look of who the fuck is?
Leon Lionheartly: go what What the fuck is this guy's problem?
neocharge: he's
Leon Lionheartly: i I love that 100%.
neocharge: like
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): okay
Leon Lionheartly: He looks at the party like, what the fuck's wrong with this guy? um When Francois starts screaming, um that's how you do acting. I'm sorry.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: yeah and the the back and forth between them he's like you stole my rock france was I did not steal your rock and you I don't beautiful
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah swa You know, Esquiet, the voice actor for Esquiet does the English and the French. ah but and i'd like So um I really want to hear what he sounds like in French because you know what what does half the nonsense that he utters that's also beautiful nonsense, like what does that sound like in French?
Leon Lionheartly: first.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I want to know.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i will i will report back to you boys when I get there.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, I'd love to hear it.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah. So you get SGA, you go and do his mission, then you get him. And you get the surf ability. Now you can surf around the the world map.
neocharge: And this is kind of when the game opens up and you can explore and you realize, oh, the red ah portals mean you're going to get fucked in here. Or if you're good enough, you're going to go a little further ah and potentially beat it.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: But yeah, I liked how they did that. I like how they color coded the portals of the world. And sometimes I wouldn't even go in if it was red because I wanted to because if you go in, it shows the name and I wanted to see the ah destinations that I haven't gone in from a bird's eye.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, if it has a name, I've been there. I've explored it. If it doesn't, I haven't. And that really helped with the in-game cleanup. ah Yeah.
neocharge: You get to explore a lot more of the world map and you get to Stone Wave Cliffs and this another banger track ah that's amazing.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Very much.
neocharge: Yeah. And there's a lot of silence in that track, too. And there's like, don and it's just very bass heavy.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: And I love that track, but you go through stone wave cliffs, you you get introduced to the stone enemies that are defense, like just crazy tanks that take forever to, to kill.
neocharge: and, uh, stone wave cliffs at the end is where our boy.
OracleCardsAndGames: Peak comedy. it's It's peak comedy at the end.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah. Peak comedy. Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: um Lamp master though, that boss, dude, but another one of my favorite themes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Such a cool fight.
neocharge: It's just, God.
OracleCardsAndGames: Dude, I got to say, Lamp Master was probably, um and in my opinion, one of the best designed fights in the entire game.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: so cool.
OracleCardsAndGames: ah give Like, Like, because the first time I did it, I was like, why is this dude just raffle stomping me? I didn't understand.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: You know, oh, shoot the lanterns. Yeah.
neocharge: In order.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah, in order. So, yeah, it took me a couple tries. Then I was like, you know what? This was really good. It was the first boss where I was like, holy shit.
neocharge: Yeah, that boss...
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, this game has a lot more to it than just face check everything.
neocharge: Right. and That boss was one that I kind of like put the controller down. was like, okay, okay. Because I loved the... I don't know. was kind of like... a I don't even know what instrument it was.
neocharge: and pretty Was it a violin or ah just an organ? It was very Castlevania-like. I loved it.
OracleCardsAndGames: um
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: It was...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You mean for the, for the theme of the fight?
neocharge: Theme of the boss.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i would guess I would guess off the top of my head an organ, but I don't know that.
neocharge: Theme of Lamp Master, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i like Don't quote me on that at all. But I know the the theme you're talking about, the feeling you're talking about, it just evokes like almost like a gothic ah vibe or something.
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Yes. Yeah. Immediately was like, oh, Castlevania.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: Just thought of it. So, ah beat the Lamp Master.
OracleCardsAndGames: did it kind of give me like the the like the bloody tears feeling yeah actually now I'm thinking about it yeah
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah. Sure.
neocharge: Yes, exactly.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, good call.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yes. Bloody tears is peak. Uh, so yeah, then you fight the lamp master. You think you beat them. And then it goes into that cut scene and you see ah Alicia.
neocharge: You don't know who she is yet. And you see Renoir. You don't know he who he is yet because when you fight him, it's like, and it says old man, ah But yeah, ah he he traps Mael into a paint cage and our boy Gustav stands and fights and he just fucking kills him.
neocharge: He Aeriths that guy. So I was like, I i compared it to like playing Final Fantasy VII and if it's like Cloud got killed by Sephiroth and was replaced with Zack...
Leon Lionheartly: Spoilers for Final Fantasy 7, by the way, folks. Yeah.
neocharge: Oh, what?
Leon Lionheartly: I agree.
neocharge: Yeah. Whoops.
Leon Lionheartly: You know how
neocharge: Spoiler cast.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, you know, look, OGFF7, yeah, it's...
neocharge: Sorry.
OracleCardsAndGames: The game's been out for 30 years, okay?
neocharge: Spin out.
OracleCardsAndGames: They've spent plenty of time.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): There is a statute of limitations, and you know I think we've we've reached
Leon Lionheartly: ah yeah agree you know how I knew it was real, Matt?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but
neocharge: What?
Leon Lionheartly: I went and looked at So we were going to talk about them later, but I went looked at the next character's inventory, and when I saw the weapons were the same, my heart sank. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: e Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know
neocharge: i I still didn't think it was real. I was in denial. That's the first stage, right? Or anger is the first stage. I don't know. First stage of grief. But I still didn't think it was real. But yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I thought not to ruin like a, like spoil another game, but I was hoping for 45% of the remainder of the game.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was like, please be a chrono situation.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You know, like I really thought there was going to be something.
neocharge: Yes.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't know what it is because anything's possible in this world. ah Like the more the further you get, the more you like learn things.
neocharge: Right. Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, there's gotta be a way, like there's no fucking way. And then of course, kind of like the stages of grief. I was like, Oh man, He gone. But quick interjection, the funny thing. So Matt was watching my trophies to know what he could talk about.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I had done that, that part. I got to that part. Obviously it hit me. I was like, fuck, you know, but I think I was used to being really upset because the game was so good at just upsetting you and making you push forward.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and And I don't remember if my wife and I had to go out to like dinner with friends or whatever it was, but on a PlayStation network, he had messaged.
neocharge: That's true.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Do you want to talk about it? And in a group, in a group with another guy and I didn't see it for like, it might've been like a full day. And then the next day, like I saw another message from the next person and then the other guy just said, I think he killed himself.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was just like, I mean, that's yeah, it's kind of how I felt in that moment. Like that was rough, man.
Leon Lionheartly: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It was absolutely rough, but it, yeah, you know, it it was a downer for sure.
neocharge: It put me down.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, Bob and I were we were at Metric last week, and I was like, I don't care what happens. I just want Gustav to fit to ah finish his mission because I wasn't even at Stonecliffe's yet.
OracleCardsAndGames: And he's like, keep playing the game, buddy. Keep playing the game. And then, like, first off...
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Why did we have to fight out his death scene? Okay.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: like
neocharge: ah loved it.
OracleCardsAndGames: That just makes it worse. Because like up until that point, and I think, honestly, post-game, Gustav is still my favorite character. um like Be all, end all. like Yeah, Luna's awesome.
neocharge: and
OracleCardsAndGames: But Gustav is my favorite character.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, that's fair. He's awesome. He's a wonderful character, for sure.
OracleCardsAndGames: It's far better than Verso. Anyway. um
OracleCardsAndGames: ah Yeah, it's... to To make you play out the fight where you know he's gonna die and then just kill him anyway. Like, come on
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Come on.
Leon Lionheartly: a
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I think they were trying to give us hope.
neocharge: Brilliantly done.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, really, like, no, it's possible.
OracleCardsAndGames: but know we had already suffered enough!
Leon Lionheartly: No, that's not what that scene was about, gentlemen, at least from my perspective.
neocharge: Let's hear it.
Leon Lionheartly: So that scene... and mo do so when First off, I'm going to say i knew Matt was stalking my trophies because I played that scene and immediately went to bed.
Leon Lionheartly: like i I was impacted that bad. I went outside, smoked a cigarette, and went to bed. like i was I was devastated. and um And then I got a text message. Want to talk about it? Goose?
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): This bitch, he's just like trolling people.
Leon Lionheartly: So Goose...
neocharge: No, I just, I really wanted to talk about it.
Leon Lionheartly: good
neocharge: Like we're doing right now. Like I experienced that a week or two weeks before and I didn't have anyone to talk about with.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: ah solu
neocharge: I was like, ah, you know?
Leon Lionheartly: yeah Right? So Gustav is talking to Mayel early on previously about this and they were talking about it and he goes, no, if I see that fucker, I'm running.
neocharge: So.
Leon Lionheartly: But he didn't run. He didn't run because he was protecting his child.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh yeah. Wonderful moment for him. it was so bad-ass.
neocharge: But.
Leon Lionheartly: That was his last stand because he hit at that point, he valued Myel's life. And he didn't understand what Myel really was all about, right?
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: he He valued Myel's life more than his own. And it as a parent, I feel that. So that's...
neocharge: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: So out of all of the scenes, that one right there probably wrecked me the most. I turned off the PlayStation my playstation and went to and went and had a cigarette and went to bed.
OracleCardsAndGames: Spoiler alert.
Leon Lionheartly: like I spent two days processing that entire that entire moment.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): good
Leon Lionheartly: um was like i I can't believe, i like just from a yeah at all the different angles, so ah that hit me hard.
neocharge: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: um But yeah, he was protecting his daughter at the end of the day.
neocharge: yeah and The crazy parallel on this, right? You said Gustave was protecting his daughter, but so was Renoir. And they both had...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: We're going to get there. We're going to get there.
neocharge: During that fight, you didn't know, but they had...
OracleCardsAndGames: boiller alert
neocharge: yeah this is a spoiler cast. But they had the same objective, right?
Leon Lionheartly: Yes, they did.
neocharge: And I mean, he was even protecting Alicia, which, you know, one in the same. ah
Leon Lionheartly: Uh-huh.
neocharge: but let's let's Let's take a moment of silence silence for Gustav.
Leon Lionheartly: For those who come after.
neocharge: Awesome. All right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Can I break the moment for just a second and say, quick interjection, did you guys know that Andy Serkis was even in the game before you played it?
neocharge: Yes.
neocharge: Yes.
OracleCardsAndGames: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: Yes.
Leon Lionheartly: Not before.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i didn't i didn't look up anything. I mean, and we saw the first trailer and I was like, I'm not watching a single thing because this this game is very special to me. I can just feel it. And so when we get to that scene, ah i went upstairs, you know, I mean, you know, wherever we were going, I was obviously devastated.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But I was trying to like make myself feel better. And I looked at my wife and I was like, pretty sure that was Andy Serkis. And she was like, who's Andy Serkis?
Leon Lionheartly: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): She didn't know what just happened. I mean, I told her about Gustav, but she doesn't know Renoir. She didn't know any of that shit. And i she was like, do want to look something up for you? And I was like, kind of. But also kind of not like I want to know, but I don't want to know because he's a master voice actor. He can voice anybody. So if he's like multiple characters in the game, I didn't want her to be like, no, he's, you know, a painter. Like I had no idea.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So but then she looked it up and she was like, what did you think his name was? And I was like Renoir. And she just she just nods at me. Just like like, I'm like, what are you hiding from me?
neocharge: Oh, no.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Because I wondered if there were at that point in time, I actually wondered if there were multiple versions of characters. Again, French stuff that I heard in the songs and then knowing Verso's name, like learning it I was like, oh, that translation means back or reverse.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like the other side of something.
neocharge: e
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And so I was just like, like, you know, mind blown. Like I don't need, i don't want to know more, but Andy circus, man, like that dude is just, mean, they were all awesome.
neocharge: Killed it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): All the voice cast was great, but Andy circus to play that kind of role and sort of have multiple of the same character, if you will, that's kind of complicated, but, The dude is just a legend for a reason. And like the fact that they got him as well, ah as ah as a villain, I'm not going to say the villain, but like as a villain.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And you still, by the end, you're like, I get it. you know he did The performance he brought. just I'm going to say wow 6,000 times during this podcast because that game is just wow.
neocharge: incredible.
Leon Lionheartly: right
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: if If I can, because you said the voice acting, um I want to roll back just a little bit as a one last moment for him.
neocharge: Please.
Leon Lionheartly: My favorite Gustav moment right before then is when you meet SKA and he gives him the password.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: and they Get out of my way!
neocharge: ye it Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: And then you don't have to yell it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: And he's so confused. He's like, what do you mean? now And then apologizes afterwards of, I'm sorry I yelled at you.
neocharge: Yeah. And Gustav was so just nice and he's just like, um get out of my way!
Leon Lionheartly: ah
neocharge: And he's just like, and he's like well I don't even know the password. You don't have to yell at me. say
Leon Lionheartly: wait When they ask who's going to give the password and everybody looks at him and goes, it's going to you, right?
neocharge: Incredible writing.
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: And he's like, fuck, why me?
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: um But rest rest in peace, Gustav.
neocharge: Yeah. So cool. Oh, Gustav.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Rest in peace.
OracleCardsAndGames: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: And you, you were like, oh Gustav's my favorite character. I can't wait to.
Leon Lionheartly: and
neocharge: And I was like, yeah, just wait till you max out a skill tree. It's awesome.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): there
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: I just wanted to, I wanted to build it up.
Leon Lionheartly: ah
neocharge: Right. Because the impact of the game and i don't know the sadness and the feelings you feel, if they're more impactful, you resonate. and you connect more with the game ah yeah gustave put me or gustav death put me down for a while dude i was like there there were a couple times with this game i just had to put it down and really just you know cry in the shower and think on things no it was like when you when you step back from this game and think back on it some things come to light and you really start understanding the tones and the writing
neocharge: And you just kind have to process what just happened because they just do a but like a three punch right in the prologue in act one. It's just like boom, boom, boom. And it's just you got to step back and you really have to process like what the fuck just happened.
neocharge: So, yeah, I thought um I thought with ah Gustav's death, I thought it might have something I thought I thought we're noir was Gustav older and I thought there was time travel involved. And I was like, oh, yeah, they'll bring him back. It's fine.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, that was my initial thought too.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah. So, and then, you know, when we get to act three, ah i definitely thought Gustav was coming back then, but nope. So yeah, he dies.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): we all hope but We all hope so long.
neocharge: i know man. Yeah. When he dies, ah my one of my favorite, my favorite character joins the scene. And speaking of incredible voice actors, ah the very talented Ben Starr.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Ben Starr, man.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and
neocharge: And dude, I just wanted to listen to him the whole game because, of course, he voices Clive in Final Fantasy 16. And he's just an incredible voice actor. Great.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Talk about going to a legend kind of overnight too.
OracleCardsAndGames: Are you...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): right I mean, you know, nobody, not to say nobody knew who he was, but you didn't know the name Ben star before 16.
neocharge: i
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): mean, most people wouldn't, I didn't not, not that I'm better than most people, but like I had no idea who this guy was. And I remember thinking you voice a brand new final fantasy protagonist.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm going to pay attention to you no matter what. So you better be on your game.
neocharge: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And boy, he brought it in that game, obviously. ah So when he was cast in this, I was like, well, yeah, I'm there. And of course, when he when he brings Verso, I didn't know he was that character.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Actually, in the initial trailer, I thought he was Gustav. I did. i like The guy we see in the trailer, and you hear Ben ben Starr's voiceover, you know for those who come out, like he says all the shit, um Expedition 33, everything.
neocharge: um
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, well, that's the front man. And then I learned it was Charlie Cox very quickly. and i was like, well, where the fuck is Ben Star?
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, I had no idea. And then, of course, he shows up. And I was like, oh, my God. Now the game.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, every time I turned around, the game began again. you know, this is like, now the game begins.
neocharge: Yeah, exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But, yeah, we Ben Star. yes
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's not fair.
neocharge: Ben Starr did the voiceover of the reveal trailer when he's like, the painter is painting.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, he was the voiceover for that.
Leon Lionheartly: I,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's why I thought he was Gustav, because I thought Gustav was like telling people in Lumiere.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, again, this was like the first trailer, so who knows?
neocharge: Yeah. And then they brought in Charlie Cox for that daredevil.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right?
neocharge: Like, he's super ah famous and big, and you're like, oh, there's Gustav, is there's no way they're going to kill him. Like again.
Leon Lionheartly: Well, that that's why I want I don't want to glaze too much onto, uh, onto Ben star, but keep in mind, he, he, he got his, he got to the fame to, uh, right.
neocharge: I do.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah Um, he got to fame final fantasy 16, but let's be honest.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: He was, he was opposite to Ralph Enos in this one.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: He's the opposite to Charlie Cox and Andy circus.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Some greats.
Leon Lionheartly: not only is he a great voice actor, he's a great voice actor that stands out amongst some of the best. Um, because you're right. Final fantasy 16 is he, he did amazing, but I will, I give it up to Ralph Ennis for Sid, um, in that, in that game, uh, all day long.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, well, yeah. I mean, come on.
Leon Lionheartly: But, but, All that aside is that that just shows how well and how ah good he does. um And ah can I kind of jokingly say with my wife, I'm like, you know what?
Leon Lionheartly: I'm not gay. But if I was gay, Ben Star is kind of a guy.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Ben Starr is the guy, right?
neocharge: Oh, absolutely.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, for for me, it was like every time like Verso spoke, like I felt like my eardrums were being made love to. I was like, shit, that's a seductive ass voice.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I have bad news for you.
OracleCardsAndGames: i thought
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They were, and your ears are pregnant.
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: i I believe it, honestly.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah laughter
neocharge: with
OracleCardsAndGames: ah
neocharge: Yep. He was on a podcast recently and they were like, what what do you think makes a good voice actor? And he's like, if you can take their voice and hold it in the palm of your hand like an object and it depth and weight.
neocharge: And I'm like... Oh, okay. And I listened to that and listened some of his work and man, it's just the the gravelly, low, ah very articulate.
neocharge: And he's like, just, yes, I'm Verso.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): dulcet tones.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: I'm Verso. It's crazy. I don't know. I can't ah replicate it. But yeah, Verso is my favorite. Go ahead.
OracleCardsAndGames: So now nobody can replicate that voice.
neocharge: Yeah. It's a little English. It's like, I'm verso. Maybe a little. But yeah, ah anytime during the campfire, i would want to initiate those conversations and get the relationship levels up and Just incredible writing and it delved into all their backstories.
neocharge: Inverso was kind of the ah keystone to all that. And he's from Expedition Zero, which is so cool. Like, why how are you like 30 years old and why is your hair so glorious?
Leon Lionheartly: yeah yeah
neocharge: Yeah, I loved Rousseau when he came in. You're just like, who the fuck's this guy? Where'd Gustav go? wow I love the new guy, but I miss Gustav. I'm so conflicted right now.
Leon Lionheartly: they they they third They kill your favorite character and replace them with a better version. And you're like, how did you do that?
neocharge: Right?
Leon Lionheartly: like It shouldn't be legal. Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: And then still managed to make you cry about a cry over Gustav, too.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I wanted to know.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: like
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I want to know, what i was like, where did this French Aragorn come from?
OracleCardsAndGames: Just one last time.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, that's really what I thought. ah just straight out, I was like, I'm so, like, Aragorn's my favorite character in The Lord of the Rings, like, just hands down for me.
neocharge: That's good.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was just like, I'm so sad right now, but like, who is this guy? And I will admit, i know Matt's going to be upset with me. Verso wasn't my favorite until like much further into the game. I i really i just thought, you're not him. you know get Get away from me. like it was like going through a bad breakup. you know just ah get off No, you're not my team.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah He's obviously very strong. All the characters can be very strong and broken if you build them that way. But i didn't i the only reason that i I kept him around was because Ben Starr did such a great job.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know Otherwise, I would have said, yeah fuck this guy. But yeah, he wasn't he grew throughout the course of the game on me. But right away, I was just like, what? Aragorn, why are you French? to Get out of here.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: Yeah, and they they kind of make you like question his motives, and he does have some questionable motives, and hate him in the beginning.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: I was talking to Bo, our friend, that we were talking to during this game, and he's like, I i hate Verso. And it was right after Gustav died. And I'm like, keep playing.
neocharge: And he's like, um no, I still hate him. He's a douchebag. I'm like, keep playing. And he gets to round act three and he stopped. And I was like, so what do you think of Verso now? And he's like, okay, he's kind of growing on me.
neocharge: But yeah, dude, it it goes right into the forgotten battlefield. You, you go and they i give you a tutorial on his awesome fighting style, the grades and everything like that. He's so strong.
neocharge: ah He does replace Gustav as a stronger Gustav. He is stronger. ah And yeah, the Forgotten Battlefield was so cool. The boss at the end, the Dueleste.
neocharge: Dueleste?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Duelist, probably.
neocharge: Dueleste?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, yeah.
neocharge: Dueliste? And then the cutscene we get at the end after you you beat him. Just amazing. What?
Leon Lionheartly: Cancel that one. I cannot talk about that cutscene, man.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah, it's peak action. oh man. And duelist or however you pronounce it. That's a hard boss.
neocharge: And you're like, get it. They just taught you Verso and they they do give send you through a gauntlet through the forgotten battlefield. And you're seeing all these corpses and you're like, what is going on?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep. yep
neocharge: And. Yeah, that was a really cool level. And that's when I really was like, oh, man, Verso is my guy and he's staying in my party. And him and Lune, I know Lune is your favorite character, Caleb.
neocharge: So I won't i won't dig you for not having Verso as your favorite character because Lune is my girl.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: But Verso and Lune were pretty much always in my party.
Leon Lionheartly: that's That's fair.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I'll go ahead, Alex.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, my party the entire game up until ah Frozen Hearts, because I felt the need to swap out, um was Lunay versus Mael.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: And then Frozen Hearts, I put a butcher's name Minoko in, replacing Mael.
neocharge: Minoco.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: ah Yeah.
neocharge: Verso says his name all the time. He's like, Minoco.
Leon Lionheartly: Hmm. i
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm not...
neocharge: oh Yeah. So, I mean, that's where we go next after the battlefield. Did you guys want to talk any about the the battlefield and the duelist fight and just epic? And then, dude, you...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, the fight was great.
neocharge: You get Verso's weapon, Duelisto, that I use for almost all the whole game. And so I was going into my build crafting and stuff like that.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, i used it for the entirety of the game from that point on. Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Was it the lightning one?
Leon Lionheartly: and
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Which which one was the Dua Listo?
OracleCardsAndGames: they
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't remember.
neocharge: It was a lightning one, and it gained rank very quickly, and it gave you two attacks.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's what it was. Yeah, yeah, OK.
neocharge: Yeah. So...
Leon Lionheartly: i
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: i I will say the duly stay.
Leon Lionheartly: That fight was a... What I really appreciate that fight is at that point, I had started to learn the patterns and get the audio cues um about parrying.
Leon Lionheartly: And that's when they hit... You know which attack I'm talking about where he hits you once, twice, three times, and then he jumps up in the air and he charges? And I was like, oh shit, I'm ready to parry.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: And I parry, and then he hits me with a gradient attack. That was my... Oh, you son of a bitch from a, from a game design. I, I absolutely loved it. It only got me, you know, the first time.
Leon Lionheartly: um but it was, it was great because that is a good progression of how you teach the player, the mechanics of your game versus a shotgun shell of, all right, you can do 12 different things. Go figure it out on your own.
Leon Lionheartly: They were, they were teaching you through that environmental storytelling and I loved it. Train. Uh, that fight was probably one of my favorites.
neocharge: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And by the way, our introduction to Verso, after Gustav dies, we just get a ah black screen that says Act 2, Verso.
neocharge: So we're in Act 2 now. ah Yeah. So after the battlefield, ah we basically but fight ah du the Duelist, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): that's what I think that's how it's pronounced, but I would have to ask my wife.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like I don't know, but I think it's released.
neocharge: Right. We're going to butcher French words here. ah And we we go to Monoco Station.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yes.
neocharge: We go into the the mountains and we're looking for our friend. Verso's like, no, I have a friend. It's Monoco. And we go into the station and we it's a really cool, really cool area.
neocharge: And we meet Minoco. And Minoco is so awesome. First of all, his theme is one of the best in the game.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's just so good.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: um love
Leon Lionheartly: this is another reference This is another inspiration or reference moment.
neocharge: hey
neocharge: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: This is Persona 5. That Minoco theme is Persona 5, 100%.
OracleCardsAndGames: yep
Leon Lionheartly: So...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's style.
Leon Lionheartly: hundred percent
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Just straight up style.
Leon Lionheartly: so
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, that style, as soon as I heard that that saxophone break in, i almost wanted to shut down the game so I could go install Persona 5 again. um Because that's one of my top favorite like soundtracks out of a video game of all time.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: um So I just immediately went to it. um And then, of course, I'll let you lead into it, Matt. that was ah That was one of the many reasons why Minoco was easily my favorite.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
neocharge: All right, that's enough. ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's never enough.
neocharge: and
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You can't stop playing it.
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: Copy.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's so good.
neocharge: I know, it's so good.
OracleCardsAndGames: It's so jazzy and awesome, man.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, the the next part is like...
neocharge: so It's crazy.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm pretty sure when I heard that the very first time, i think, again, I was down here by myself and I was like,
neocharge: Awesome.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): how did they fit fucking jazz into this game and make it awesome? Like I just, you know, it just, it just kept happening.
OracleCardsAndGames: you
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then of course, you know, I, I actually, uh, my favorite animal are monkeys, just fun fact about me.
neocharge: Right.
neocharge: Nice.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And so Monoko is almost like monkey esque gestural, you know, there's some, you know, he's not a human.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): He's just his own thing, but I was just like, Oh my God, is this my new favorite character? And I i loved him very much. I really did. Again, i love strong women more, I guess. I don't know.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But like he he was in my party, i think, for basically the rest of the game. He was like my guy. Part of it was I wanted to learn all of his skills. yeah yeah It's still the gamer in me.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I was just like, I love him. And I want to hold him. And I want to lead him everywhere. And I want him to protect me in times of danger.
neocharge: um
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, he he was he was in my party for all of like the really random like hard fights.
neocharge: and it Go
OracleCardsAndGames: A lot of the chromatics he was in my party for just because like I needed somebody else that could break.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Because the way I built Luna, she couldn't break. Verso took too long to get up there. So he was able to do it out the gate. So he stuck around for all the chroma fights.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: I had to get that part in there.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah and In his introduction with for to the party, when Verso's like, I sent something. And then Minoco comes out and tries to attack him, and Verso blocks and is like, you're getting slow.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: was great. It set up the dynamic and the relationship so well. um And really what Minoco is, which you mentioned that earlier, right, Matt?
neocharge: Yeah, it's he's a painted version of Verso's childhood dog.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: So it's his best friend.
Leon Lionheartly: It's his best friend.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): just so cool just so fucking cool like if what
OracleCardsAndGames: and
neocharge: It's so awesome, right?
Leon Lionheartly: was
neocharge: So yeah, and we we get introduced to our epic blue mage, right? And the crazy twist behind this is he he collects the monster's feet.
neocharge: And he's ah he's a feet collector. And i love i love his little ah audio ah clip when he enters battle. He's like, oh, what lovely feet.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I told my wife that Quentin Tarantino wrote that in as a character because Quentin Tarantino has a foot finish and I was just like i'm I'm here for it though whatever this great random as hell
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: Yep. Yep. And he's, he's hesitant. You, you, you fight him and you get that epic battle music and he's, you get him by the campfire and he's hesitant. He's like, Oh, I don't want to I don't want to do this again.
neocharge: And Verso's like, yeah, but we have her this time. And you're like, what the fuck's that mean? And he's like, it's different now. Cause they've, they've gone through all these expeditions, right? From expedition zero all the way to 33 and Minoco and Verso have been,
neocharge: involved in pretty much all of them and versa and minoka is like i will never join you again and versus like there will be fighting though and he's like yes there will be there will be fighting won't there okay i'm in that's a good point okay i'm in it's so good that that little scene is amazing uh
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's a good point.
Leon Lionheartly: and Even after that, there'd be a lot of fighting. Okay, I'm in. Good.
neocharge: yeah right
Leon Lionheartly: Good idea. Good. they like They continue that bickering even after that fact.
neocharge: Yep. Yep. So Monoko was a very, very cool character ah and building his relationship level and the ah the mission you do for him and learning more about the gestrals. So cool.
neocharge: ah And then we go to Old Lumiere and man, that's ah that place was epic. All the swords.
neocharge: I'm like, dude this is ah straight up a souls born if i've ever seen one this is miyazaki like no one else it's crazy uh and yeah old lumiere was cool in
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): even
neocharge: man, you're like, what the hell happened here?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: There's all kinds of swords. There's a dead fucking giant in the middle, ah basically the third axon. And then you you find out who actually killed that third axon in end game.
neocharge: But old Lumiere was beautiful. Love the music there. it was kind of like you're like, there was an epic battle here. What'd you guys think of ah of that level?
OracleCardsAndGames: ah lu Old Lumiere gave me more of endgame feeling than the actual end of the game did. ah no I think it was it was mostly like the swords everywhere, like how things were explained, obviously all the plot twists that nobody saw coming.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: like it
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: It had a big, huge, grandiose feeling about it. and they're like That's where the story, in my opinion at least, really started to come to fruition. and
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: and I spent a lot of time in Lumiere before I finally left.
neocharge: who
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was nervous.
neocharge: It has some cool enemies too.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was nervous the whole time.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like It was almost like ah not quite the same thing, but like if anybody's seen The Dark Knight, that feeling of the Joker when he's not on screen. you know You're nervous the whole time that like what the fuck is going to happen?
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like He's going to something because he was such a good Joker and you know it was filmed really well. But I felt like, am i near the end? like I'm not sure.
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know Like you said, Alex, it did it did feel more endgame than some of the endgame stuff. And not that that's a bad thing, because the endgame was very strong. ah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But this was just like, I feel like some shit's going to go down, and I don't know if I'm ready for it. hesitant to continue. i was hesitant to continue You know, i did I just didn't know, should I?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I do think that was intentional because again, it had been a while, at least for most of us, since a really awful, sad, horrible event happened. And I'm just like, who's going to die next?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like I'm just ready for it now, but I'm not.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah But I did think the level design was really cool. I like the golds. um I mean, you know, all the levels, you said it earlier, all the levels are very unique. ah they They, another home run out of,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah level design team and everything. ah But it felt, again, just different and we're making this journey. But then, of course, I do have to touch on this for a minute. When you come across the other expeditions flags like throughout the journey, and I don't know if you guys were as excited as I was to see the the numbers.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm like, 67.
neocharge: oh yeah e Especially when you see the double zero flags.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): We're getting further. you know or or like... 48 or you know what i don't remember exactly but i was like i remember at that point in time i was like these numbers are getting a lot lower and i'm not ready for that yeah i was uh yeah oh god yeah yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: You knew shit was about to go down when you saw those.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah for sure
neocharge: So yeah, little beacons. ah And then, yeah, you go through old Lumiere and you fight Renoir again. And pretty tough fight. i didn't I didn't have a problem with it. And you see the mansion in the background. So you're like, oh, what's going on? And then he's like, we got to get there. And it disappears. And he's like, shit, we can't we we can't go back. And you're like, what is going on, Verso?
neocharge: What aren't you telling us? And you eventually you're like, OK, well, if you want to fight the paintress, don't go nearer because there's a huge barrier that'll zap you, basically.
neocharge: And if you want to know how to get that barrier down, you have to kill two actions. And you get to choose. There's Serenae and Visages.
neocharge: And these accents are the painted versions of, ah what was it? The paintress, his wife, and Aline, yeah, or Aline, and Verso.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, I'll leave.
neocharge: so And Verso, when you realize that ah the the Visages boss is the painted version of Verso and all those masks, you're like, hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: Propose a question.
Leon Lionheartly: Are you sure the visages are the paintress in Verso?
Leon Lionheartly: Or?
neocharge: The accents?
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, the accents? Or are they somebody else?
neocharge: Or?
Leon Lionheartly: ah job I'll let you think about that one.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. So, so,
neocharge: i don't know.
OracleCardsAndGames: so we, we, we know we, yeah, we, we know which one is like, cause there's, there's four axons.
neocharge: I think they said that.
OracleCardsAndGames: We know which one is Cleo. Cleo was the one that, uh, Simon shot down in old Lemire.
neocharge: Yes.
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, the visages are interpreted as
neocharge: right
OracleCardsAndGames: um at least how I see it, they're interpreted, like, I see them as, like, original real-world Verso because he didn't want to be a painter, he wanted to be a musician, so he lived his life behind a mask.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, mask. Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: Ah, there you go.
OracleCardsAndGames: And then Serene was how Renoir interpreted his wife prior to her entering the canvas.
Leon Lionheartly: There you go. Thank you.
neocharge: and
Leon Lionheartly: I wanted that that exposition in there.
neocharge: Yes, there are four accents because Alicia has an accent too in the Reacher.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep. Yep, in the reacher, yep.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh. a
neocharge: Yeah. That fight sucked. um
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep. Yep.
neocharge: Yeah. Dude, Serena, that level, hold that vocal track in the background, just those vocals. My God. And then they they started getting more complicated and louder the more you got closer to ah Serena.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That was such a cool design.
neocharge: So...
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like the whole thing, the set piece, I called it a set piece when I was playing.
neocharge: So cool. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): or trying to describe it to a friend of mine who was never going to play the game.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know and And I was like, I got to talk to somebody about this thing that's like here in my face right now. And I was describing what we see, how you're traveling around this this zone, let's say.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And she's just dancing in the background. And it's like, I don't know. I mean, it was an artistic piece. And then, like you said, the music ah just gets louder or more complex, like the closer you get to her.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But, you know, I mean, that's a pretty big level, honestly. Like even if you steamrolled it, it was it was a big level, you know, for compared to what we had gotten before.
neocharge: Of course you did.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Even if you didn't explore, was pretty big. And I remember just, of yes, I was that guy. I went there first instead of the visages first because they told me it was harder to go there. And I was like, yeah, all right, let's see. ah I did it because duh.
neocharge: or she did
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but um it was such a cool zone.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, same.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It might actually, that might be my favorite designed ah level. Not necessarily because of the music. music was awesome, but I just love the idea of this like breathing world.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Kind of like when you see things in the background and the rest of the game, you're getting closer to the paintress when you're at campfires, you know, you see, she gets like bigger and bigger as the game progresses.
neocharge: Yeah. Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But that one was almost like, you know, one place that did it in real time almost.
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you're traveling down and getting closer. And then of course, when you like go up to her and she's fucking huge and you're just like, how am I going to deal with this? And the fight was super cool. Music was super cool. She was, you know, beautiful in this ah bedazzling way. And of course a lot of the mobs in that zone sort of, I don't remember if it was a specific charm, but that's what they were supposed to do.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They didn't live long enough when they fought against me. So I don't know, but like, um,
neocharge: Right. They were blast cannons.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, it was such a cool idea. and it was very unique. Like every other zone in the world in the game, super unique. But that one, i loved the color palette. I loved the feel. I loved the music. It just it came together in a way that was like, I mean, for me, it was serene.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): know was this so There was something about it that was oddly calming. And obviously her name is similar to that, giving you comfort.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was just like, man, there's such power in names. And like, they just, I don't know how they keep surprising me every time I go somewhere. It's insane.
neocharge: Yeah, they just keep one-upping themselves.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. Yeah.
neocharge: It's just crazy.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: that
OracleCardsAndGames: I don't know how... i Like I said, i played I played the whole game on PC. I don't know how serene that whole zone looked for you guys, but with the ray tracing on, I had so much... like It's almost like ah when you're looking into the sun or like when it's a sunny day and you're driving the car around, there was a lot of that and it just brought so much to life in that zone for me because there was this like bright glare everywhere if you look towards her.
neocharge: Okay.
neocharge: Oh yeah, and especially when you get on the discs and the light shines on those dancers.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah.
neocharge: It was incredible shading and incredible lighting. um Yeah, it looked gorgeous.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, i didn't I didn't know if you guys got any of that or not, but god damn, it was so gorgeous.
neocharge: ah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: we all We all three played on the PS5 Pro, so it ran just beautifully. ah So yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay.
Leon Lionheartly: PS5 Pro with OLED TVs.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh Yeah. yeah.
neocharge: Yep, exactly.
Leon Lionheartly: Yep.
neocharge: and ah Yeah, I went to visages first. ah I dude, when when you go through that level, I was getting that callback to Ocarina of Time.
neocharge: And yeah, yeah, getting the ah the stones.
Leon Lionheartly: Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure. Yeah, yeah.
neocharge: So and it was the same color ah palette too, right? Red, green, blue. And it was awesome because it's anger, sorrow and sadness. And just that was my favorite of the two.
neocharge: I loved visages. uh, and the, the boss fight at the end, just one of the biggest bosses you've encountered so far. And it was just like, how the fuck am I going to parry these attacks? This guy's like the size of a freaking small city.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: So, yeah, I really liked that level. Uh, any Anything else we want to touch on with the two axons to get the the sword the curator asks for?
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: i i forgot to mention that.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: we We got the curator in the mansion, and he's the one that says, hey, I need this chroma from these axons to create the weapon to break the barrier.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Mm-hmm.
neocharge: So...
Leon Lionheartly: i
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: I will say just you can interpret it because this is the way the game is is at the end of both Visages and Serene you do the boss fight and then you finish the boss fight right which by the way Both of them are amazing. um One is audio, one is visual. like you You can talk about the ah their artistic interpretations.
Leon Lionheartly: is if you You mentioned talking to individuals in the campfire, and extending their story. um You've got to think about who actually finishes off each of the visages.
neocharge: who
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah yeah at the at the time i had no idea Yeah, at the time, I had no idea how symbolic Luna finish finishing off Serene was, in all honesty.
Leon Lionheartly: Caleb's smiling, so...
neocharge: Ah, yep. Because that side quest.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, it was yeah then i went when I did the side quiz last night, I was like, holy shit, it makes sense now.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah. um Emotionally, based on, Lunay cannot be charmed, essentially, because she's ah she's a woman of science and logic.
neocharge: Right. Love
Leon Lionheartly: um And then ACL, with what she's doing and removing the masks and revealing who you really are and staying true to yourself.
neocharge: that.
Leon Lionheartly: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I do have a question. Did all three of you go to the Visages first?
Leon Lionheartly: Yes.
neocharge: ah did yes
OracleCardsAndGames: No, i went I went to Serene first.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Alex, did you? Okay, so you won't be able to answer this question. So Matt and Bob, this is weird. When you went to the Visages, did all of the doors open for you to go to the end boss right away?
neocharge: Yes. Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Okay, because i didn't know...
neocharge: um And you had to you had to create the path with all the masks.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, but like i didn't I just did that naturally.
neocharge: Did you have to fight the masks?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know like when i But when I beat Serene first and then went there, I thought I was like, did they just like let me skip the level because I did the hard thing first?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. I
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like I didn't know. And then i you know I just explored because that's who I am and I needed to explore. And I was genuinely curious. I was like, I wonder if the game just knew, well, fuck this.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): We're not going to waste your time. Just go straight to the guy.
neocharge: oh
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I i was curious. So that's cool.
neocharge: no they they open four paths one to the golden path but the others you have to go fight all three masks and did you fight all three masks what
Leon Lionheartly: I,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Okay.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't think so, but i to be honest with you I don't know. But like, so all I remember is the the dude, you know, who shows up and he's just like, what he told me was you can either just go through that door and like show up right now or you can look around.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's what he told me. And then he opened all the doors and I didn't know if that was like for, you know, since you got to choose in the game and I can't wait to go all the way in new game plus I'm going to, I'm going to see with my same file to, you know, to see if like,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): is it different if I go to visages first? and Like, am I not allowed to go through the big door? And I, I'm just, I wondered, and I didn't want to look it up because I thought, I'll just figure it out my own, my own someday.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I wondered if you guys could have, because he straight up told me you can just go.
neocharge: Yeah. I think you can go through the big door, but there's no path to the boss.
Leon Lionheartly: eight
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Okay.
neocharge: In each section of the path, you have to fight the masks. The mask of... The red mask of anger, the blue mask of sorrow, and the green mask of joy. You didn't fight those?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, no, I didn't have to do that either.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't remember that at all.
neocharge: What the
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but
Leon Lionheartly: It's...
OracleCardsAndGames: No, no.
neocharge: Some of the best parts of the game.
OracleCardsAndGames: No, I went and fought Serene, went straight to Visages, and ah the dude was like, yeah, you can just go straight here.
neocharge: That's crazy.
OracleCardsAndGames: i was like, oh, cool. Fuck it. The boss is right there. Let's go.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So, so you did. Okay. So yeah, I think, I think because we went to the other one, they were like, all right, peace.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Oh, dude, those mask fights were so cool. They were they were themed from the mask emotion. So the anger ones would just wreck you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: The sadness ones, they wouldn't even like attack you. They were just like sad and you could just kill them.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, my my brother spoiled it my but my brother had spoiled it for me and let me know that, hey, the fight's actually a little bit harder if you don't kill the masks first.
Leon Lionheartly: If I...
neocharge: Wow. That's crazy.
Leon Lionheartly: That's...
OracleCardsAndGames: So, yeah, so, like, I was, like, the inner power game in me was like, you know what?
neocharge: no
OracleCardsAndGames: The game hasn't been that hard yet. Let's go. And the fight is just was way easier than Serene. Like, Serene wasn't even the hardest boss in Serene, but...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah, I murdered him. Mm-mm.
Leon Lionheartly: So you're youre you're right, Alex.
OracleCardsAndGames: No, the Threadmaster was.
Leon Lionheartly: that's That's the key difference.
neocharge: he
Leon Lionheartly: If you don't take out the masks, and you were over-leveled, I'm assuming at that point, Caleb.
OracleCardsAndGames: Oh, and hell no.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, I probably was.
Leon Lionheartly: all right, well, um I know you weren't, Michael.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i We skipped this earlier.
OracleCardsAndGames: I was not.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): When we came out of, ah like from the very beginning of the game, the first thing that I did fighting that chromatic, I did one then, and then I did another one.
neocharge: Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): so And I was like, oh man, I'm strong as shit. And I personally, this is a personal thing, I love, I think one of the best things that RPGs can do is let the player break them.
Leon Lionheartly: Yep. Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I really do.
neocharge: yes
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I feel like that makes the game replayable.
Leon Lionheartly: yep
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It makes it enjoyable. And I know a lot of people are all worried about balance and shit, and that's fair. I personally love the idea of rewarding somebody for being able to just be like, oh, you're good.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Have a great time in the sandbox that we made for you. So like, yeah, I was, I was OP basically the entire game.
neocharge: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like I, you know, like after I did that early on, and And part of me, when I do a brand new game, like when I play this game again, because I will, because it's one of the best ever made, I probably will intentionally not, just to see how much harder it is.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah But I also broke the parry system like real hard. Like yeah so many times a boss wouldn't even get a move in ah or I wouldn't even get a move in because I would like counter attack then it would just die. And i was like, well, that was fun, but I did enjoy it still.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Again, speaking of the, to the majesty of the game, like despite the fact that I steamrolled a lot of it, I still thought it was very well crafted and very well executed.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, so is so specifically for when you get there, and I'm sorry if this is a little bit of a spoiler, but think about it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: The anger mask.
neocharge: It's a spoiler cast.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: Anger mask deals additional, from my understanding, anger mask deals additional damage.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): sure
Leon Lionheartly: Sadness hits you with that. I don't remember the status effect that allows you to not get AP.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): oh yeah yeah yeah i don't know that didn't make me happy laughing
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Exhaustion.
Leon Lionheartly: Exhaustion.
neocharge: Exhaustion.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Happiness heals the boss.
neocharge: Heels, yeah. Yeah, it's awesome.
Leon Lionheartly: So if the
neocharge: i can't believe you guys
Leon Lionheartly: You saw...
neocharge: can't believe you guys can fight the masks.
Leon Lionheartly: Right?
neocharge: That's crazy.
Leon Lionheartly: That's what I'm saying, Matt. Thank you.
neocharge: Huh.
Leon Lionheartly: Huh.
neocharge: Wow. Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, just blasted that bitch.
Leon Lionheartly: i mean And again, what drives me up more of a wall for that is do what you want, guys. That game provides you two different options. But they literally...
neocharge: nop
Leon Lionheartly: Verso literally says, well, you can't find one because he's in a mountain. Another one's dead. all right. Well, we've got two. I would go to this guy. He's going to be a lot easier to kill.
Leon Lionheartly: And then 50%, apparently the outlaw averages is 50% of the people didn't need listen to that that dialogue and just said, no, I'm going to go to Serene next.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): part of it Part of it for me is the fact that I'm... I mean, again, Matt was very generous when he introduced me in saying that like I'm one of the best gamers that he knows, and I and i appreciate that. That's very sweet.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um I'm not bad at games. like I know that. I'm not a speedrunner. I'm not a world first of anything, but... like I don't know, in a different life. Maybe I could have been. I'm not really sure.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But with this this type of game, when Verso said, no we got to go here first, I'm like, no, fuck that shit. like I'm going to challenge myself.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know And it wasn't a slight against Verso, even though he still hadn't grown on me quite yet. But a lot of that is like, all right, let's see what you got. And there have been games that I've played that have said, don't do that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I do it, and then I immediately regret it. you know like that That's going to happen.
neocharge: i
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But this one, I was just like...
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, I got to see what I can do. And so I went to Serene first. Plus it sounded prettier, you know, like that, that just the name Serene.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah for for
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't know how to pronounce it properly, but yeah.
neocharge: do I.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. for For me, it was, I literally just forgot what he said and where to go first. So i was like, okay, well, I'll go here. It's closer. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Yep. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. So we get both Axon Chroma. We go to the curator. We ah forge the sword for Mael that she can use in battle, which is awesome.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's such a great addition that it wasn't just a cutscene weapon.
neocharge: Yeah. Exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, oh, you get this now. Have a great time. It's so good.
neocharge: Yeah. ah And we get to the barrier around the paintress and she shatters it and we get to the monolith and the the lead up to the monolith man. Holy shit.
neocharge: Like just the the scope and the grandeur.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, how about that visual, right?
neocharge: Yeah, it was awesome.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Jeez, that was so cool.
neocharge: Then you get to like her feet and you realize the scale. ah Crazy. Then you go through the gauntlet in the monolith.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: just And you revisit each like world, little chunks of it. And the enemies are fairly similar, but you're you're getting those visuals of Aline and Verso or the family, Verso.
neocharge: Each each section you go to and you're getting that little piece of the story. And I just love that section. It was a gauntlet, though. That level was real long.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: So but I love the storytelling element of that, where they're kind of you you're you're starting to piece things together. You're like, oh, shit. OK, I see what's going on.
neocharge: And you finally get up to the, the monolith, the top and man, ah Renoir comes, comes out and he's like, Oh, what are you guys doing here?
neocharge: You're not, you're not supposed to be here. I told you to not pursue this, go away. And then that fight music. I think this is my favorite track of the game.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): God, that was such a good track.
neocharge: It, It's just all the vocals, the choir.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So good.
neocharge: i It really reminded me of something Supergiant would do. ah Like Hades-esque. In that fight, man. He turns into a lion.
neocharge: and
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah like
neocharge: So nuts!
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm here for it. just I'm here for all of it.
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: So good.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, that that was the first boss where I had the my big oh shit moment because that's when I finally realized i was dramatically underleveled because if I didn't parry him when he was hasted and was in the lion form, I was one-shotted.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: like I was only in the high 20s, low 30s, somewhere around there at this point.
neocharge: Dang. Oh, wow.
OracleCardsAndGames: like So he was one-shotting me if I didn't parry everything. So I got good. Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Because I was not going to go back to grinding the game.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Because at that point, like, Bob had already mentioned the spoiler cast. I'm like, fuck it. i'm a grind this game out. i'm ah finish it. I'm going to love it. Yeah, so there was no grinding from that point on.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: It was just go.
neocharge: I actually got that fight Renoir first time. So, and then, yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: It took me two nights. Yeah.
neocharge: I'm a big explorer. So I did a lot of exploring when you, you know, you got SKA's new abilities. Uh, and I, I did a lot of exploring in between the golden path sections.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: So I was pretty leveled, uh, leveled pretty high. Um, so yeah, you, you, basically, uh, render Renoir.
neocharge: I don't know. in Incapacitated, I guess you you don't kill them. And then you do what you set out to do. You, you find, ah the actual paintress, Aline.
neocharge: Uh, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): what a beautiful moment like I mean a lot of beautiful moments in that game but shit
neocharge: At the top. Yeah. At the top of the monolith. And you just, the, the night sky, Yeah, it was just gorgeous. And that fight...
neocharge: That fight was amazing.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: and her attacks were very sporadic. And when she brings out the actual... i don't know puppet paintress, you could say.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Perfect.
neocharge: And she pulls apart reality. And like all those little shooting stars come at you. You're just like... What the fuck is going on, man?
neocharge: It was crazy. That fight.
OracleCardsAndGames: It felt like... Sorry, you can go ahead. Sorry.
neocharge: Go ahead. No, I've been talking a lot.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, so... yeah for For me, that fight like felt like the end of every Final Fantasy game ever where you just you're fighting God. like there's
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. like She is this essentially the God of this world, and holy shit, it was reflected.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, it's it's funny that you say that because like there's always the joke about a lot of times in Persona games now because they, every oh, you're going to fight God at the end of it. you know ah JRPGs typically have that, but some of the better ones, at least in my opinion, you sort of earn earn that fight.
neocharge: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know like A lot of the games where you might fight a deity or or fight the creator or whatever, they're in recent history some of them aren't done as well as others it's just like the trope how do we make this go bigger and bigger and bigger and this was probably the first time in a long while that i felt like they earned all the things that we that we you know are are getting at this point in the game where i'm just like i'm i knew that i was ready for it like as a gamer but i didn't know narratively i was like i don't know if i'm ready for this
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, I just, I don't know if I'm ready to do this thing. I was like putting myself in the shoes of the expedition because the weight of all the things that you learn up to that point in the game and certain things that you might not learn, but you might be theorizing in your head or whatever. You're just like, what does this mean? Like what happens?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): when you kill the God of this world that you still don't fully understand, like you could, we might all just fucking vanish. I don't know. How does this, how does this work? And in, in doing so, you know, you still find yourself pushing forward again because you're part of the expedition and that's what you got to do. That's your mission.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And to be fully honest with you, i was, I knew that we were like, in a painting or like in another alternate version of the world. like I wasn't sure because we couldn't be sure.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They could drop all the hints in the world, but like they did such a good job of letting you figure it out for yourself, but then also not not be sure.
neocharge: breadcrumbs.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah But in this case, i I was really, really worried that we were going to become the next Renoir. And our job in the in the like end game, post game, I was so scared that it would be my job to kill Expedition 32 and I wouldn't be able to do it. like I was nervous because I was just like, what what could this mean? And i mean, I'm not upset that that wasn't the case, but part of me like secretly hoped, like, are we going to go there because they've gone other places?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm very happy with where they went with this game. I mean, I am. It was it was so good. But that was the moment in this game where I was like, I don't know that I want to continue for real because I don't know what it means.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What does this mean? There's a reason that Verso has been trying to like break the cycle and won't tell us everything. And when Renoir is saying like, I'm doing this for your own good, you don't know like killing them is a sympathy or, you know, all the things that he would say. And I was just like, I can't become the next Renoir. I can't fucking do it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I can't ask my L to do that after Gustave died. Like all the things that, are going through my head while I'm fighting the paintress. And no the gamer in me is like, let's see what happens.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But like the human in me, I was like, I can't. I don't know if I can process this.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um you know it was It was very heavy.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I loved it. I think that they nailed what they did. ah But part of the magic of a good story is also being able to tell the story without ruining it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know like Foreshadowing exists for a reason. And a lot of the things that were foreshadowed in this game were coming to fruition in this fight.
OracleCardsAndGames: yep
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): With music, with the visuals, with the the paintress herself.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And it's just like, holy shit. you know i mean it was very a lot of the game was holy shit. And again, what, 33 people made this game? 32 people and a dog? ah you know like Come on.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Wow.
Leon Lionheartly: that's
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: that That's amazing, dude. i I didn't put it... That was your Final Fantasy X moment then.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, it really was. it was.
Leon Lionheartly: um which is which is amazing to hear. um For me, it was a more literal translation. so i And then this will come back to later when we get to the end game, right? When we get to the final stages.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: But Verso was literally trying to destroy the world that was being created. like In his mind, i had an idea I didn't quite understand, but conceptually I understood that destroying the Pinterest was going to destroy everything, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. Break something, right?
Leon Lionheartly: I didn't break something. And I didn't understand conceptually, like from a literal sense and the story of how the story was going to tell that um from a mechanical standpoint, should I say, of how that was going to happen.
Leon Lionheartly: But I was more of on the side of Verso of, no, let's break the cycle because breaking the cycle is a theme that you see in a lot of RPGs and video games.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: so um So I didn't... I guess I didn't have that ah that French artistic mindset and background. um I'm more of a German guy myself. So ah um it didn't dawn on me. I just thought the the backdrop of a painter and painting and everything else was just more of ah was more of ah a way to tell the story versus less more into a well literal sense.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask Alex actually, in this point, specifically as a musician, um because i mean we're all creatives in our own way, or we all used to be.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like I mean, i'm I'm not as creative as I used to be. I fully admit it. um But a lot of times... some of the best art comes out of grief, sadness, despair.
neocharge: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, some can come out of joy, some can come out of grace. Art is everything. um But for me, i was picking up on the themes of grief very early on and not just the literal stuff like Mael losing Gustav and then being worried about losing all the other people and everybody dying and everything being miserable.
OracleCardsAndGames: no
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But in this fight specifically, I think that might have been my turning point where i was like I thought this is a story about grief on a grander scale than we could ever imagine.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I think that like when that when we was when I was approaching the monolith that last time you know for the official the scale being ridiculous, I'm fairly certain that was my moment where I was like, this is about grief.
OracleCardsAndGames: you
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I i can't, i I don't know. That was another reason I wasn't ready. So my question for Alex was as a musician, um did you feel that way as well? Like with, you know, it's as far as grief, did you pick up on it that early in the, I mean, it is the end game technically, but did you pick up on on it that early in the game or was that something that ah you didn't experience until later?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. um I think for me, like where where it finally like fully started coming together was with... like you You go up to and you see the giant puppet at the foot of the monolith.
OracleCardsAndGames: She looks like a woman that's crying.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: She very much does, arms crossed, face buried and buried in her arms. like Looks every bit of a woman that's crying. Then you're going through... everything you fight Renoir and you finally meet the paintress, which apparently at that point, I didn't realize it until I saw her. So that was the second time we've seen her.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Cause we saw her at the manor too. And oldly in my ear. But and it wasn't until she was talking to Verso and who she thought was Alicia where I was like, Holy shit. She's just a grieving woman.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yep. yep
OracleCardsAndGames: Like her family died in the fire. Like there's a little snippet so that it that that had occurred and like her family's gone. So I was like, shit.
OracleCardsAndGames: Are we the bad guy? Like, like I didn't know.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yep but
neocharge: Exactly.
OracleCardsAndGames: I didn't know how to feel like. On one hand, like, yeah, we're saving people. On the other hand. Are we saving people?
OracleCardsAndGames: And then it all ties in like immediately the whole long prolonged cutscenes afterwards.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: We're like, yep, this was a mistake.
neocharge: Oh, yeah. The greatest stories are usually have you questioning if you're on the right side or the villain or the the protagonist or antagonist. And you definitely felt this.
neocharge: ah And you dropped the paintress. ah I got her one shot. Again, I did Renoir and the paintress one shot. So that was cool. um But...
neocharge: Yeah, you drop her, and i love how Verso just pulls a stone and just throws it at SKA. He's like, here you go, now you fly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That motherfucker has just been holding on to it the whole time.
neocharge: I know.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: Right. ah And then you you definitely are like, the question is motive. Like, wait, you had the stone that could make us fly the whole time? You go back to Lumiere. Everyone's excited. You did the thing.
neocharge: you You killed the paintress. That's what you set out to do, right? Expedition 33. All the expeditions up until 33. Kill the paintress. You killed the paintress. Everyone's celebrating.
neocharge: And you're like, you see Verso's face and you're like, what's going on here? There's something. and There's something coming because this isn't how this game ends. It's not going to end happy.
neocharge: And ah everyone gets Infinity War snapped.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Everyone.
neocharge: And everyone, every single person, everyone. in Well, except to get Infinity War snapped.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: And Verso's sitting on the dock and ah looks at that letter. This was probably my favorite part of the game and the the huge twist of the game, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
neocharge: And ah it's a letter from Alicia. And it's like, ah the paintress was trying to warn everyone. The real evil is under the monolith. She painted the number to try and warn that everyone of that number is going to die.
neocharge: Or ah like she was just trying to warn everyone when the real evil was under the model
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Well, Anne keep life around as long as possible because her power was waning.
neocharge: Crazy.
neocharge: Yes. Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And it was just like, fuck you guys.
neocharge: Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You've done it again. You know, like you just, you raised the game again.
neocharge: I know.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah What a beautiful thing that she was actually, i mean, you know, sure.
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It came from grief, you know, being a mother who lost basically everything and didn't know how to cope.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So she went into her son's world. I mean, it's just such a magnificent, uh, ah way to to tell that and and try to explain that to people who might not have ever experienced something that heavy before but then to know that she's actually been like doing everybody a solid by giving them as much time as possible instead of the other way around where you just think what ah what a bitch you know like like you know when Bob but at the beginning when he was like paint was gonna fucking die at that moment how did you feel Bob were you just like I've i've been wrong this whole time like what you know what was going through your head
neocharge: Right?
OracleCardsAndGames: Bye.
neocharge: Yeah. Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: So this is, ah this whole game is a rollercoaster, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure. Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: Um, there were three big, uh, three big rollercoaster parts where I was like, Oh shit, I was wrong. First one was the painters must die. The second one was after I got to the paintbrush and I said, oh, Renoir must die.
Leon Lionheartly: The third one we'll get to later.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: But this was the point where I was like, oh, no, Renoir's the bad guy. um This is was the, oh, I'm an asshole ah kind of. a um
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: Do you guys know what I'm talking about with the Keem Peel skit where they're ah where they're both playing the gay guys in the in the in the office?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, sure. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, where he was like, well, maybe i'm not just maybe I'm not persecuted.
neocharge: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: Maybe I'm just an asshole.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: this was my Maybe I'm just an asshole moment. um But yeah, that would that that's kind of like where this was that second moment where I had to reassess what I was looking at in this game because I was so confused like I was in my preteens again.
neocharge: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, I actually called Bob at that point.
Leon Lionheartly: He did.
OracleCardsAndGames: wow
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: i have the messages.
OracleCardsAndGames: And I was like, what the fuck? And I was like, theorizing everything.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: I felt like every every bit of Always Sunny in Philadelphia where he's at the fucking board.
Leon Lionheartly: who
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Charlie, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm like, trying to connect all the dots.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: And yeah, fuck.
neocharge: Yeah, ah it was a turning point in the game.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: And then after you you learn that the Painter's was trying to warn everyone, ah it said goes to Act 3, and it's Act 3, Mael. And then it goes to modern day.
neocharge: or or not mean
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Modern in that world.
neocharge: It goes into reality.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Yeah, modern modern day in that world, and which you actually understand when this is happening, what time period with Verso's ending. ah But yeah, it goes into the the mansion and you learn that you were just in a painting the entire time.
neocharge: And it's crazy. I immediately got vibes of Tron. I immediately they got vibes of the Matrix.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: ah You were literally just in the Matrix and the real world is outside and there are writers and painters. And who the who are these writers that set their house on fire where Verso died?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Maybe we'll find out in Expedition 32.
neocharge: um Yeah, exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): However that's going to go.
neocharge: Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, the that that that point in the manor was the first time where I actually like looked around and I was like, holy shit, like, well, there's, you know, the painting of Serene. Here's the painting of Visages.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's
neocharge: Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: like Oh, this is one of the gestural merchants. I was like, holy shit. Verso did make all this shit.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): it's
OracleCardsAndGames: The entire thing was his idea.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It was so such a beautiful moment. I mean, the the game is filled with beautiful moments, but that one sort of where we're told ah for sure, like definitively, this is what's going on.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And whether you thought about it and thought maybe, maybe not, I don't know, or you you know hit the nail on the head, or if you were just like, I don't know what the fuck's going on, just tell me. It didn't really matter. For me personally, I think the coolest part about that was what art means to all of us I mean, we're talking about this game for at least three hours, you know?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah Sorry, listeners.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I hope you're driving to Utah from Ohio while you're listening to this.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But... ah putting your soul into the work that you create. like they did take They took it literally in this game in a good way. It wasn't just like in your face like, oh, we're just going to this like magical realm and whatever, whatever.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But no, I mean, the interactions between the characters, the people that in this world within the painting become very real and they're very important to us. They obviously meant so much to us. Again, we're talking about this for for a long time.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know, you you really start to question what defines, like Matt said, his the his word was existence.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What defines existence? What makes something real? And, you know, to me, friends of mine that don't care about video games, don't care about movies, don't care about storytelling, really, they're they're all about like real life and that's it. you know And that's fine, you know, their their family is the most important thing to them. That's wonderful.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But for me, when I talk about these characters that I love that... I mean, you know, being real, they don't exist in our world, except that they kind of do.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, they they become real, they become alive. And this game somehow tapped into that like weird fucking meta thing without being pretentious.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like at least again, in my opinion, i and I don't, again, it was like you, i hate all of you and I love you so much for giving this to me. Like I'm, I feel honored that I was in France when this game released.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Because even though I didn't get to play it and I was a little behind, I was just like, yeah, but I was in the fucking motherland of this game. you know like Part of me is just like, I've got that going on. I was not in Montpellier where the we Sandfall Interactive is ah located, but it just it struck me so hard in such a way where I was like, this is this is like the one of the best things that I've ever experienced.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I am just thankful to be around to do it. And if I wanted to explain to somebody
Leon Lionheartly: you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): what art could mean, I would tell them to play this game and be like, like even if you hate it the whole way through, finish it.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I think maybe you'll understand. Because also it helps with coping and grief and and you know all the other themes. But like what a wild moment, especially when everybody gets gommaged at the end, gets Thanos snapped.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And you're just like, but like I don't care if they're fake. therere They're not fake. like They're real to me. And Mael, as we know, comes out with basically that plot.
Leon Lionheartly: Oh my god.
neocharge: Well,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Well, I mean, you got to think like in the matrix, uh, Morpheus is like, what is real and what defines real.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: And when I found out everyone's just all painted, i was like, oh okay. And then I'm like, wait a second. We might all be painted. just living in a painting because the painted people don't know they're painted.
neocharge: ah The outside of the painting is basically a fourth dimension, right? Because we can see three dimensions exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): For sure.
neocharge: And they're literally, the painters outside, the DeSondre family are literally pouring their soul into their art. And they found out a way to ah enter their paintings and paint life like like gods.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: And it's ah it really impacted me because like I said, it's very heavily inspired by the Matrix and Tron.
Leon Lionheartly: That's.
neocharge: And these are some of my favorite movies.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): first yeah
neocharge: i And it's just like that ah world within a world. And all of these people are just painted, but they exist and they have free will.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: well And they're as real as the people that painted them, honestly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And that that impacts a choice that we'll talk about later, that you have to make later.
neocharge: Uh-huh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah So I won't get into that that much.
neocharge: Uh-huh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But it's very important to remember that feeling in this moment when the time comes. So.
Leon Lionheartly: That's...
neocharge: That's what that where I had to i discover and explore that feeling. I was like, yeah. So...
Leon Lionheartly: That's exactly it. your guys Thank you, Matt and Caleb. You guys have given me a perspective on how you viewed this part of the game versus the way I viewed it because I think it fundamentally has impacted um my takeaway of what the message of this game is, as well as not only that, the choice that we'll get into it later, but the very end.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure. Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: I think this this is a critical moment that helps truly impact Because it was a Matrix moment for me, but it was also something else deeper from an emotional standpoint versus, oh, it's all what's really you know what's what's real ah ah there, Neo.
Leon Lionheartly: Is that really air you're breathing? This had more deeper meaning to it in that moment for me, but we'll get to that when we get to that that that segment.
neocharge: Yeah, my name, my digital name is literally Neo Charge and Neo is derived from the Matrix. So it's one of my favorite movies. It is my favorite movie. the matrix is The Matrix is my favorite movie of all time.
neocharge: And this definitely explores that theme.
Leon Lionheartly: Hmm.
neocharge: So, yep. What are your thoughts, Alex?
OracleCardsAndGames: ah
neocharge: I know this is kind of like fresh for you. What this happened like last night this morning.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, I was going to say, like you're this just happened.
OracleCardsAndGames: this morning yeah i can't yeah um shit don't know i haven't fully had all the time in the world to like process all of it yet um i
neocharge: right
OracleCardsAndGames: It genuinely hurt like you know beating the paintress, watching everybody get gommaged. It gave me that feeling lo okay, why did we do this?
OracleCardsAndGames: like what What was the reason behind it? and Obviously, it was explained not even 30 seconds after I started questioning it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Bye.
OracleCardsAndGames: but okay just For some reason for me, like it didn't sit well. Because you guys already said, like what is reality? like Do we care about these characters? Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: At that point, yeah. I was like, you know what? I love this world. and And at that point, I'm like, oh, well, the game's done now.
neocharge: Hmm. Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: I didn't know there was more. Um, so i was like, well, this is the most bullshit ending in the planet.
neocharge: right
OracleCardsAndGames: Everybody dies the end. im like, what the hell is this? Saw? Like, like, so there there was no fulfillment there. Um, and like, I was on the phone with Bob, got off the phone with him and then just sat outside for a minute and was just like trying to process everything.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: ah
OracleCardsAndGames: And,
neocharge: This moment put me down for a while and I was like, holy shit.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. I didn't have time to be down. I had to i had to finish.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): is the
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Is it fair to say the word hollow? Did you feel hollow after that?
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, I felt hollow.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): When it happened?
OracleCardsAndGames: Definitely felt empty. I was like, well, shit. they It's been a long time since the video games made me feel like that.
Leon Lionheartly: you
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: that
OracleCardsAndGames: So it was kind of like a little bit of like an existential moment for myself. was like, well, damn. Where do we go from here?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I think the last game for me that made me feel that way was Final Fantasy ten
neocharge: Right.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): When you get to the end and and you do it, not quite as heavy. I mean, it was heavy, but it wasn't this. like This was just on another level. you know But with 10, boy, back in the day, getting to that ending, I was like, fuck.
Leon Lionheartly: All right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know i just i was
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was bummed even though I was happy. like It was very mixed emotions. But that was also the actual end of the game. And in this one... You're like, well, where the fuck do I go from here?
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, i I don't know if I have the energy. I'm so upset and hollow. I mean, that you know my word was hollow ah when I got there. So just interesting to hear that.
Leon Lionheartly: i
neocharge: Yeah, and kind of betrayed a little bit, you know?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, I was like, man, i spent all this time to finish the game and this is how it ends? This is my reward? Like...
neocharge: Right. And yeah, you're controlling Alicia. And lo and behold, another crazy twist and plot point comes into fruition.
neocharge: Alicia goes into the painting to save her mother and then just gets ah basically mind wiped and reborn as a painted Miel. Miel's Alicia.
neocharge: Reborn.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: And crazy.
OracleCardsAndGames: Which was by that, by that point I was, i was already dead set that that was what was going on.
neocharge: Crazy.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Cause I'm like, it's too obvious. Like the two of them always just like, I thought it was kind of tacky at some point.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like they see each other, they just stare at each other.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Bye.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: And I'm like, okay.
neocharge: I saw it ah in the eyes.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: I did.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah I'm like, I'm like the, the two of you are clearly the same person.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, and then, all of that goes on. i'm like, okay, well, it's good to know was at least right about that.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: The only thing in the entire story I was right about.
neocharge: Yep.
neocharge: Yep. And then, ah yeah, Maial gets even stronger.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah. um the
neocharge: And you realize she's an actual painter in this world.
OracleCardsAndGames: Talk about plot armor. Come on, man. like
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: but That's what I wanted to say. is this This is one of the the few things that I think from a game perspective, this game struggles a little bit with, um is it does such a good job. Gustav is the main character.
Leon Lionheartly: Then Gustav is not the main character. And Verso's the main character. And now Verso's not the main character. Psyche, it was Mael all along. And then what we could we could talk about later, but mike if you're not using Mael by late game with some of the super bosses, you're kind of tro you're you're kind of playing the game on hard difficulty.
neocharge: right
Leon Lionheartly: Like, let's let's be real.
neocharge: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: So I think that's one of the few things that I'm like, ah, if you had really just taken and said, okay, story-wise, Mael is i mean kind of the main character, but not...
Leon Lionheartly: Don't give her that level three ah chromatic attack. I'm sorry. yeah yeah like
neocharge: The GOMAS.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, dude, that's fucking baller that they did it.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You know, I mean, it is.
neocharge: I love it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's just like, oh, I can scrub too. Like, oh shit.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: i
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's so cool.
Leon Lionheartly: From a story perspective, I get it, but it felt kind of felt like if you're not using Mael, you're trolling, so to speak.
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Right. Yeah. it was kind of It was a little foreshadowed when you you beat the paintress and then Maelle actually go moshes her.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: And you're like, oh. And yeah, dude, when her paint painter powers open up in her skill tree, she just gets even more broken.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): was going to say, she was busted.
neocharge: It's crazy.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and then they give you that and it was like, you're going to give me these tools to have fun with?
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I love you guys so much.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): From a game player you know gameplay perspective, it's just like,
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. And this is, uh, this is our chance. You, you basically, he's like, Hey, you can return to Lumiere whenever you want. And this is our chance to explore the world, the entire world. And that moment, man, when SGA flies up and you see everything, that's my high wind moment.
neocharge: And I cannot fucking wait to see that and experience that again in Final Fantasy VII Reborn.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You mean Referoth?
neocharge: ah then The next one. Yeah, Rathoroth.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: love the high wind track. And when when the high wind will go up and i hopefully they do that, I think they will. But yeah, it was just crazy. Like the perspective change, it was so impactful.
neocharge: And it was just, it showed you the breadth and the scale of this world.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: And then you realize the whole map is shaped as a painting.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yep.
neocharge: And you're like, holy shit. And then you just get to go anywhere. It's amazing.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. and
Leon Lionheartly: I'm going to go to the beginning of
OracleCardsAndGames: And starting with the flight, that that was the exact moment where my bad mistakes started happening.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: going to go to the beginning the
OracleCardsAndGames: ah started it's just you know I started ignoring all the red portals.
Leon Lionheartly: I'm going to go to the beginning of the day.
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm like, I'm going in here.
Leon Lionheartly: going to to the beginning the day.
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm going to try it. Got face checked, left. I was like, okay, maybe I shouldn't be doing a the Endless Tower right now.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: I'm going to go to the beginning the to the beginning of the day.
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay, maybe I shouldn't be doing Dark Shores right now.
Leon Lionheartly: I'm going go to beginning of
neocharge: ah
OracleCardsAndGames: hey Hey, 35 is way too low a level for flying manor.
Leon Lionheartly: going to go the beginning of the day.
OracleCardsAndGames: Maybe we shouldn't be doing that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Bye.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: but
neocharge: Yeah, they give you free reign.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: And they're like, yeah, they they take off the the shackles.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah.
neocharge: They give you just all the freedom. And...
Leon Lionheartly: Taking to the skies. Anyways.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Yep. Whee!
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah What a great character, like a weird fucking awesome, whatever the hell he is.
neocharge: Whee!
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, i and also a beautiful thing of like, what would a child paint, you know, like to, to make himself a friend. Like he's that again, endless creativity where they somehow the developers somehow were like, let's look at this from this angle because we don't, I don't know.
Leon Lionheartly: I heard a great dream and I'm not going to be able to use that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i don't remember if they tell us how old Verso was when he started painting this.
Leon Lionheartly: It's a good job after
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like we know that certain things had happened along the way and that he wanted to be a piano player and a musician and, you know, but he was like sort of forced to paint.
Leon Lionheartly: You know, I'm really happy to have a good day.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like we, we know that I might just be misremembering cause I'm a little, a little further removed of if they said specifically like he was seven when he made this, I don't know. ah But what would be something that came out of my head when I was seven years old, it, it wouldn't be SQA, but it would probably be similarly weird, you know?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then of course, as he gets older,
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And he hides his wine in there because of course, like that, that's not weird when you think about it from a creativity standpoint and and an artistic standpoint, it just, again, like the level of brilliance in such a small detail.
Leon Lionheartly: what
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah really, like most players could go through the game and just be like, ah, this guy's cool. He's he's my airship. He's my boat.
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know They might not really care, but I i would find it hard-pressed to meet a person that would give the game a chance and not care even about like this this weird god thing that speaks funny and says awesome shit.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know it's It's just like every level was so well thought out and executed.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Every layer, I mean, in the game that... Even from that, at the very end, when Mael brings back a few people to be like, I'm going to need some help. And Esquire's there.
neocharge: Right. And she's like,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): escque's there you know he he's gonna He's going to be part of the team.
neocharge: yeah. Why didn't we bring Gustav back there?
Leon Lionheartly: I know. can tell you why.
neocharge: What?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Honestly, my guest like my guess is grief, but please.
OracleCardsAndGames: I have a theory on that one.
Leon Lionheartly: You have a theory.
neocharge: What? Yep. Yeah. And maybe she was in acceptance and was like, right but I mean, it doesn't make sense because we'll talk about the endings.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
neocharge: So, uh,
Leon Lionheartly: So I will, I will, I want to say, Caleb, holy shit. I didn't think about it like that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): better
Leon Lionheartly: SGA from a seven, eight year old kid's perspective of, Hey, how do people get from XYZ?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Well, I just give him a friend who can fly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: Well, how does he fly? He just says going through the skies. Like I didn't think about it that way. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Of course.
Leon Lionheartly: Uh,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, you know, an imaginary friend, i don't know if you guys had imaginary friends when you were kids.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, that's why well I'm saying that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): A lot of my friends, yeah a lot of my friends did and I didn't.
OracleCardsAndGames: How old are you to assume I have real friends now?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah But like, I was jealous as a kid.
Leon Lionheartly: Okay.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I stayed with my grandparents in the third, in my third grade year ah because my parents were out working on a movie together in Arizona. And I remember like, making up an imaginary friend because I thought I was like weird for not having one.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So I just like made up this thing that did not exist in my mind and my grandparents were like, really? And I was like, no, I don't know what my problem is. like i I thought there was something wrong with me that I didn't have an imaginary friend.
neocharge: I
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um for real. I made one up named Earl and it was stupid.
Leon Lionheartly: you
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But Esquiet, if I was going to create something, this is like a literal creation of an imaginary friend that he brings to life for all of us. And I just thought like such a minor thing. And again, i maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Sandfall Interactive, if they ever heard this, they'd be like, you're an idiot. That's not what we meant on. But like still, we all get out of things. We get something out of things and art It's all different. you know We all interpret things in a different way.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But for me, that was just like every time I turned around, I thought of something else that they did that was so special. And I felt bad because Matt kept asking me, let's talk about this game. like We need to talk about it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And part of the reason that I didn't want to during the game was I didn't want ah anybody to give me any hints about what was going on. But even afterwards, he had talked about, like you guys talked about your podcast. You talked about maybe doing a spoiler cast for this. Like, he was, I got to talk about it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And part of me was like, I don't want to be a dick, but I really want to save this stuff for honest reactions. I didn't tell him this.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I just kept it to myself for, like, three weeks, four weeks, five weeks.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And so I'm so glad that we're finally here. And I know that the listeners can't see, but I can see your faces, you know, and it's just like, I'm so glad that at least it's resonating a little bit with you in that way, or you're, you're thinking about things a little differently.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Cause that's another thing I think art can do is make people see things differently and hear things differently and interpret things differently. ah So I guess that's my very long winded way of saying you're welcome.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but I'm glad that you listen, you know, that's cool.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: I interpret it like that too.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah I will also say...
neocharge: And I interpreted it like he painted these three guardians of the world i to be saviors and save people when they were in trouble.
neocharge: And we actually find out he's the one that saved CL from drowning.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, it's such a cool, such a cool thing.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: For my interest. Oh, go ahead, Alex.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, it's it's not directly, as far as I know, like I haven't done all the super bosses and everything, so I don't have the whole 100% complete picture. But as far as I know, like it wasn't really directly stated how old, or I almost said SKA Versa was when he painted like SKA and the gestrals and everything.
OracleCardsAndGames: But through the fading boy throughout the entire duration of the game, it is very much hinted that he was a child.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, that's why I thought seven, because I thought the fa fading boy was like around seven or eight years old.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: right
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah But that that was the only thing that I could muster up. And I couldn't remember if they were like, remember when Versa was seven and he did this thing and then he died. you like I couldn't remember.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah. ah The fading boy, it was a verso the entire game. The fading man was Renoir and the fading woman that you can only talk to as my L and the, and the battlefield that was supposed to be clear.
OracleCardsAndGames: If I remember correctly.
neocharge: Clea.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Yep. You probably haven't fought Clea, have you?
OracleCardsAndGames: I have,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, he did. Today.
neocharge: You have.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): said he did today.
neocharge: Okay, yeah, you did. That's right. You haven't fought the other one.
OracleCardsAndGames: I have not fought Simon yet.
neocharge: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No.
OracleCardsAndGames: No, I'm not, I'm not ready for that one yet.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: I've,
neocharge: Oh, yeah, no.
OracleCardsAndGames: like my my brother's My brother let me know enough.
neocharge: would None of us were.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, my brother let me know enough. and He's like, yeah, you're going puckering your ass cheek the whole fight. I'm like, good to know.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: like
neocharge: I had to have a build that stun locked him the entire time. and we'll We'll talk about that. I can't wait talk about that. ah But yeah,
OracleCardsAndGames: Nothing like my build. Mm-hmm.
neocharge: but oh Probably not. That's the beauty of this game. it's It gives you so much creative freedom on the builds. ah But yeah, we get the opportunity to have all the campfire stories and build all the relationships and go on those side quests, Lune's side quest, Monoko's side quest to ah revive Noko.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you.
neocharge: So that was really cool. And all the campfire stories are so amazing. ah And then you you reconnect with Alicia or Mael.
neocharge: And you also learn, we also learn in Act 3 that Verso's just a painted version of himself. He's not real. I mean, nobody's real, but he's actually the one painting.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: And this is the the ah doppelganger, you could say. So we learned that and we learned everyone's just... painted. It's crazy. Uh, but then, you know, I went back to Lumiere. I was pretty high level.
neocharge: I went back at around 80 and ah that that scene where she's like, I got to get more chroma. And she like raises all the expeditioners from the grave.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): man
neocharge: It's crazy. And they're just there's just a war of ah the expeditioners and the Navrons that Renoir has painted. And those Navrons are tough.
neocharge: So... But yeah, I went there pretty high level. ah And that was that was just a, yeah, no, you're pretty low level.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, no.
neocharge: That's crazy.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah Yeah, fighting. It was ah the Claire's and Obscure's had an insanely hard time.
neocharge: Yep.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but yeah They were bitches, weren't they?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. um the I forget the name of it. i just call I keep referring to it to my buddies as the horse.
neocharge: Creation.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, creation, yeah. That was a bitch.
neocharge: Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: um And I think creation was actually harder than Renoir was, for me at least.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I could see that. Yeah.
neocharge: she Just wait till you get to Renoir's drafts.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah but
neocharge: Oh,
OracleCardsAndGames: I've started exploring. i made the mistake of trying to fight the merchant, and I will not be going back there until I'm a way higher level.
neocharge: oh yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: but
neocharge: Yeah. that That level's made for like 80, 90. That's your your in-game grind to get to 99.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: But yeah, we go through Lumiere again, and we we get to Renoir, and we fight him.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like real Renoir you know i'd so to speak yeah
neocharge: real went Renoir. Yeah. Uh, and that's, dude, I was so high level that I was almost one shotting stuff and I had to like skip turns to see, uh, attacks and dialogue, uh, really wish.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. yeah
neocharge: And that's why I told you both. I was like, Hey, uh, don't go back to Lumiere and it is not a point of no return. So you can go back, uh,
neocharge: And go there like around 70. So it's a little challenging because I made a mistake and I just, because it opens up the world to you and you can just explore everything and do everything.
neocharge: And you could do the Reacher and Alicia's fight and you can do pretty much, yep, the Crows and oh man, there's so many side, the Crimson Forest, so many side places.
OracleCardsAndGames: the crows i hated that one
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): There's a lot of fun stuff you can do, even if you're just ah just like, oh narrative only.
neocharge: There is.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But man, the extra stuff that you can do has narrative tied into, I mean, not all of it, but a lot of it does.
neocharge: Right. Exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And it's just more, which is another thing I think they nailed in this game.
neocharge: exactly and
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And you'll find out, Alex, when you do it. I mean, I know we're talking about some of it now, but when, I mean, you've already done Clea, so you know that there was a pretty hefty story, small bits, but a pretty hefty story in that sequence that was just,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It was just like, how did you guys do this?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, i I did not expect that she was the one painting the... the
neocharge: Never once.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah the yeah that I almost said Revrons.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: the The Nevrons the entire time.
neocharge: Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: like That did not make... I kind of started to get a little bit going around Flying Manor. And then I don't know what it was where it kind where i like fully clicked. Where I was like, holy shit, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: She is the one doing all this. It might have been the fact that like literally all the cool bosses were there, but yeah, loved it.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, they really were cool.
neocharge: yeah I got a lot of ah abilities with Monoko from that. I wasn't using them in some boss battles and I missed them and it's awesome that you can just go back and and get them.
neocharge: So, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Does it have legs?
neocharge: i
OracleCardsAndGames: Yes, then he can learn it.
neocharge: Right. Right, exactly. Yeah, the last boss is Renoir. um We take him down multiple phases and then we're presented with a choice.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. Yeah.
neocharge: You basically, as Verso and Mael, you go out of the painting into, I guess, the void, right? And it's like, oh, you're not, you can't be here. Why why are you able to be here?
neocharge: ah And he was painted in a way where he could go out there ah from, I think, his mom's gift, he said.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: So yeah, you're like, okay, this ah this is the end of the game.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: ah And then they give you a choice. You can either ah choose Verso's ending where basically Verso is being forced to paint and a you say you can get him to stop painting.
neocharge: ah and basically erase everyone ah out of existence. Or you can choose Mael's ending where you can go back into the painting and just live in fairytale world, ah happy and bring anyone you want back and live basically in the matrix.
neocharge: So ah Verso's ending is the red pill and Mael's ending is the blue pill.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank
neocharge: Right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah I mean you didn't necessarily know that when the choice was presented to you you know you could guess maybe ah but talk about staring at the screen for a long half time now I'll just say so like as ah as a big Matrix fan myself it's you know the red pill blue pill I i would always consider myself like yeah red pill let's see what's out there let's let's let's do this thing
neocharge: when you That's kind of a good comparison.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Right. That's true.
neocharge: Oh, dude. 10 minutes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): This it was the only time in my life. And again, what I was talking about earlier, where seeing what Mael was going through, seeing the stages of grief and seeing like how these people were alive to me after this adventure, ah this expedition.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I, you know, I'm just going to spoil it for my for everybody else. Like, I i chose Maelle because for me, she actually was always the main character in in my mind. i just I just felt like it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um Even though you got to control Gustav and you got to control Verso, I just felt that she was the main character because she was special. You know, there was something about her. um And the game did tell you that 100,000 times too, but like it you know just felt that way.
neocharge: right
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And i you know a lot of times as a gamer, I would probably be like, well, i'm going to win this fight with my L, so let me just like finish it and then I can explore the other one later. ah But I knew that this choice was really important.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And when I chose my L and I realized that it was basically a blue pill ending, I was almost upset with myself because I was like, I never and a million years would have thought myself as a blue pill person, but this game like changed.
neocharge: m
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like I can't let these people go. i I just couldn't, I couldn't do it. I couldn't fucking do it. I was like devastated. And then you had told me like, Oh, like you should watch the other one, you know, or, or play the other one.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I refused for like two weeks because I was like, I can't,
neocharge: Did you?
neocharge: Ah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I can't accept that yet. Like I was just at this point where I couldn't do it. So I'm sorry if I jumped the gun, but I had to explain why didn't know at the time, you know, when you're picking, you might have an idea, but it wasn't like the game straight up said, like, what ending do you want?
neocharge: No, you're good.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You know, which is also a beautiful way to make the choice because it was like, verse like, I obviously understood where Verso was coming from. Absolutely.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um the dude has lost just as much as everybody else. And then he doesn't even feel real, you know, like let him, let him just die.
neocharge: Right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Let him, let him be at peace. ah But with my L I was like, she's lost so much. I can't ask her to lose more.
neocharge: Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I just can't. She, she's still grieving for her brother. She's still grieving for Gustav. She's still grieving for all the things she's gone through. i can't do this.
neocharge: For herself.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. And it was just like wild to see the blue pill ending and be like,
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): hi I don't know who I am anymore. I just i was broken for a bit.
neocharge: Exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i' really, really had a hard time with it.
neocharge: it It flipped the script. And yeah, we can go around and talk about the ending we chose and why we chose it. But yeah, you have Verso's ending or Mael's ending. And what you know then, it's like you chose choose Mael, you basically go back in the painting or you choose Verso, you stop the painting.
neocharge: And if he stops painting, everyone just gets snapped out of existence, right? um I can go into my ending if you want, and then we'll go.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Please.
Leon Lionheartly: Please.
neocharge: Cool. Yeah. So ah this this decision came up on the screen and I literally took 10 minutes. I was like, I think my controller disconnected because I was like, was like okay, like it's easy to choose Verso's ending when you just see everyone as fake creations in the painting, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: But this is where I really explored... what if we're just painted and living in someone else's creation?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Thank you.
neocharge: And in some religions, that's like that's someone created us and we are basically just painted. And then I was like, well, okay. And they all have free will, right? They can do whatever they want.
neocharge: So who am to pull that free will from them and make the choice for them. It's basically like snapping someone out of existence. But then I was like, on the same side of the coin, is oblivion not existing better than existing and feeling all the pain and all the suffering?
neocharge: And it's it's just a game for the ages that explores one of my favorite concepts. And and that is, is existence a punishment or a gift?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: And I ultimately, i was like, you know, is ah Oblivion a mercy robbing someone of an experience, even if it's painful, though?
neocharge: Like, dude, I was like, oh, and I ultimately chose Mile because i couldn't do that to everyone. And Verso, even though he's my favorite character, for the happiness of yeah ah ton of people, someone has to suffer.
OracleCardsAndGames: Oh.
neocharge: And Verso, the little boy, had to suffer. And we don't know how long he suffers, right? Painting. But, yeah. ah I inevitably chose Mael.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It blew my mind that you didn't pick Versa when you, when you told me, like when we talked about this afterwards, because I was like, I knew he was your favorite character, but also other things I know about you that we don't really have to go into on this.
neocharge: Because I just... Right? and it Me too. Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I was just like, Like, did he go through the same thing that I did? You know, and and we, of course, talked about it a little bit. And then we decided to save it for this, this podcast, this spoiler cast.
neocharge: Yeah. Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But um I do have to say that really surprised me for for you specifically, because I was like, I can't believe I did that to myself.
neocharge: It's...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then when you told me, I was like, fuck, this game is incredible.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah You're really, really, really.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. And when I realized it was a blue pill ending, I was like, holy shit. But then... I mean, i was kind of thinking if it was me, right? Because that that scene in The Matrix is like, you know, ignorance is bliss.
neocharge: So ah if you put me in a fake fairy tale world where everything is about to get better for everyone, the paintress is gone, but I mean, it will cycle.
neocharge: But you do have that ah age of of ah the golden age, right? Everything is supposed to is about to get better and it's all fake. Man, i would love to live in a fake world any day than broken world outside.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like a fake happy utopia that everybody's cooled in a busted ward torn hellscape hell scape yeah
neocharge: Exactly. It's the Matrix.
neocharge: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's it's fake. I know it's fake as my L, but I can also paint whatever the fuck I want in it. So you're essentially like a god and you can create anything. You can bring anyone back.
neocharge: And so, yeah, I chose my L.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I do, before Bob and Alex answer, I do want to posit a question to you now, because we're further removed than the other two from this game. Do you stand by that decision? Like, are you are you okay with it now?
neocharge: Good question. Me.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: ah Yeah, absolutely.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Because I just can't, I can't unpaint everyone.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): and
neocharge: I can't unpaint Esquie. Lune?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right?
neocharge: Dude, no.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know That's the thing...
neocharge: No, they'll never exist ever again. it's It's, they're very unique in Verso's painting. And if he stops painting, he dies. Essentially, he's gone, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: That part of his soul also disappears. And that's another thing. You're killing Verso too.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right. And that's actually why I stand by my decision as well.
neocharge: And I couldn't do that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Further removed, I stand by it because I'm like, again, what I said earlier about they've become real to me.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They're important to me.
neocharge: Yes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And for my L and the rest of the world, they are important to each other.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And that's the thing that actually gets me to be okay with it. the which Which is still, and and the thing that's very interesting, earlier I mentioned that Luné in the very beginning with Gustav basically like simplified the trolley problem and handled it the best.
neocharge: Exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Until this moment, it's like reverse trolley problem. like One suffers for the rest to be happy. And now that I'm further away from it, I'm just like, yeah, that kind of sucks. But, and again, we've all at least seen this, ah Verso gets to play the piano.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): She at least being the new paintress, being the, you know, my L being the one that's, that's sort of in charge of everything.
neocharge: Exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Now she let her brother do what he always wanted to do. Even if it's not her real brother, he gets to play the piano. Now is that fucked up? Probably because whose decision is it to make?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Not mine, but like, that is why I'm more okay with it because it's like, you know,
neocharge: Yeah, it's it's the it's the relationships that you you mend and CL gets to see your husband again and Gustav comes back.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, and I know Alex alex is like chomping at the bit to say something. So you're up, buddy.
neocharge: I know. They're up next.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm sorry. I'm long-winded. I love this game. Go for it.
Leon Lionheartly: Before he gets into it, I will say the reason he's chomping at the bit is I know what everybody in this room, I know what everybody's decision was.
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay.
neocharge: Me too.
Leon Lionheartly: so I'm going to leave it like that.
neocharge: you
Leon Lionheartly: Alex, please take it away because I have a lot to say at the end.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Cool.
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay. First of all, I, I know both endings. Um, after I chose mine, uh, uh, was at peace with it and all that and went to bed last night. I talked to Bob about it.
OracleCardsAndGames: while I was at work today. He told me, watch the other ending. I chose Verso's ending. um Point blank period. It was very cut and dry for me to make that decision.
OracleCardsAndGames: Cause I looked at it from the perspective of this man has already suffered enough pain in his lifetime for a thousand lifetimes.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Definitely.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, like the, the whole point, the whole precipice of the game is this is a family that is grieving. If Verso, if you pick Verso's ending and Verso has to stop painting, the family can grieve properly because it's over.
OracleCardsAndGames: In my eyes, that was the actual honest to goodness happy ending because you get the whole Verso funeral thing. You get the family who is now more at peace with what happened in their family than before.
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, I'm sorry, I don't know if I'm loud enough or not. um But you get the family that's now more at peace with things than they were before because now they don't have, you know, Aline clinging to this memory anymore.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
OracleCardsAndGames: um She's not clinging to the to the canvas because it's got the last bit of Verso's soul, which was destroying her and destroying the family.
neocharge: Right. Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: That was the whole point of the whole game.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, course.
OracleCardsAndGames: So it was very cut and dry for me to pick that ending.
neocharge: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, I looked at it like, Verso has lived... as far as I'm tracking 130 plus years. um
neocharge: But again, how does time move in this world? Kind of like when you're in the grid in Tron, it moves way slower.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: That's another thing I wanted to know is how does time flow in this world, right?
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: And did you see the date on his gravestone? On Verso's gravestone?
OracleCardsAndGames: I did not pay attention to that. um I, I do. I caught a light, light glimpse that it was like early nineteen hundreds
neocharge: war war one
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. really Yep. um Which makes sense for, you know, the setting being how it is.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: ah You know, we didn't have coal trains yet. We had, you know, old trains.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: There's no light rails in France in 1905. nineteen oh five Yeah.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: no for For me, he had already suffered enough. Like it was just clear cut, dry, like let him go.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Did it break my heart watching ah Luna on the other side of the portal? Yes, it did.
neocharge: She just sits down and just stares into your eyes.
OracleCardsAndGames: It did. It killed me, but
OracleCardsAndGames: it was just like, let the man die. Let him, let him be at peace.
neocharge: Yeah. And your question, Caleb, ah do I stand by it? After I saw Verso's ending 100%, I am very validif validified of my decision because no way I'm Dustin Lune.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But here's the thing.
neocharge: so
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Here's the beauty of it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. no
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i i actually... you know, part of the reason it was a tough choice. I understand Alex's perspective thousand percent.
neocharge: Yeah, me too.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm like, yeah, you're not wrong.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You know, you're you're not like that's that's another beautiful part of this game that like because a lot of games, you know, they'll give you like fake choices, artificial choices.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And not to say earlier in the game when it was between like the visages and serene.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um That's i don't want wanna say it's an artificial choice, but ultimately it doesn't matter. You do have to do both. You know, like you have to do both to continue the game. This choice fucking mattered like big time you know it's it really and and both of them i feel like i mean maybe maybe not but after hearing us give our diatribe about it i would hope that alex is like no i kind of get that you i mean you disagree fine but that you're at least like oh man that does make a little bit of sense why somebody would do that uh but with yours with with the verso ending like i get it i it was so difficult for me to choose
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, I just i just innately...
neocharge: Yeah. That's
OracleCardsAndGames: ah Bob, I'm going let you go before I say anything. Before I say anything else. Because I can go on a whole rant about the mile ending and how much I hate it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And that's also fair. It's totally fair.
Leon Lionheartly: All right, well, ah you good, Alex? You feeling...
OracleCardsAndGames: For now, unless you picked it too.
Leon Lionheartly: ah All right. So this is why I'm laughing. ah Caleb, Matt, you guys chose my L. Alex, you chose Verso.
Leon Lionheartly: It took me all of five seconds to make my decision. I chose Verso.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: um I did go back later and um review My L's ending. And My L's ending gave me confirmation bias to why I chose Verso.
Leon Lionheartly: um The line that really struck me to the core was when you're you're getting right up before when you're getting ready to make that decision.
OracleCardsAndGames: Exactly.
Leon Lionheartly: And Verso says, and it may be after you chose him, but he says the line of this painting has made ah made us all basically double down and effectively say we're all liars.
Leon Lionheartly: this so this This painting has made fools of us all. That line really struck co chord with me because um I believe it was you earlier, Caleb, that said when when you were asking about what does this game mean to you, like if you could describe it in one word, you said grief, if I'm not mistaken, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I said acceptance because acceptance is the end of grief.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: Remember, the five stages of grief do not have to come and come in a linear so linear order, right? What Renoir, for me, and this is my perspective, what Renoir was trying to tell everybody is if you do not accept reality, you will find yourself enveloped in a fantasy and you will lose yourself.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: And that's what happens to Mael. It's amazing that ah that Verso gets to play the piano at the end, but in the end of his in that cutscene, he hesitates before he plays the piano.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but No, that's, I'm so glad that you noticed that too, because even though I definitely stand by my choice, um and maybe it's just because I also a piano player and I thought he gets to do the thing that he truly loved or some version of him does.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But that hesitation was enough for me to be like, Was I wrong about that? like maybe Maybe this Verso didn't want to do that.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't fucking know because he doesn't get to tell us. He doesn't get to tell us what he wants because he's just had the 130 years of being pissed off that he exists. um
neocharge: Yeah, too.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But you know ultimately, i was I had the wool pulled over my eyes, so to speak, of this fantasy world. um It worked on me. And i never thought in a million years that it would.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know That was the ah was the thing that I was like, fuck, I'm...
neocharge: yeah me too
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): it's it
Leon Lionheartly: ah
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, and that's...
Leon Lionheartly: That's what I love about this is because you guys are both, I see that perspective. Like I ha a thousand percent um empathize with it is the best word I can, a way I can put it. But I think back to the visages, the visages is nothing more than a, another, it's an expression of Verso ripping the mask off of who we, the world wants us to see to be who we truly are is what Verso wanted.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: He just wanted to be himself and,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: And then he was you being told like a child, oh, you really want to play the piano? Guess what? You get to play the piano now, but you get to play the piano all you want until ah until the end of time.
Leon Lionheartly: It's another form of hell, if you will, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): right
Leon Lionheartly: he he Ultimately, that decision, that free will is taken away from him. um the the The little boy being trapped in the painting and his soul being damned is one thing. um But literally, you are just telling him, I'm sorry, you're being damned to hell.
Leon Lionheartly: So... So Mayel can be happy. And at the yet very end, you see her eyes change as she slowly loses herself. And that was when I went, oh, shit.
neocharge: Like Leighton did.
Leon Lionheartly: This is this is that third ah that third, oh, shit, I was wrong moment. When I went, oh, shit, Renoir was right from the beginning.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, for for me, and I just want to bring this up to maybe provoke a little bit of thought. um After watching the Maelle ending, to me, it seems like, like obviously, yeah, Verso is hesitant to play the piano.
OracleCardsAndGames: um But then we get the glimpse over at Maelle where her eyes have changed, which is indicative anytime the painters are doing something.
OracleCardsAndGames: Who's to say she didn't pay repaint reality to force him to play.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, no, I mean, that's true. that That's a ah good point.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. And then my, my, my other, honestly, its like the very beginning of miles ending is what really confirmed it for me. Verso is begging her to let him die that he doesn't want to keep living.
OracleCardsAndGames: And she forces him to do it, which makes her no better than Renoir was in the beginning.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, that's true.
neocharge: To let everyone else exist, though. Right? So one person has to suffer to let everyone else exist.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: People that have been painted have free will, like Monoko, Eskye.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: like I couldn't unpaint them.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: I couldn't yeah unpaint Lune, Ciel.
OracleCardsAndGames: ah yeah and
neocharge: I just gained i gained a connection with these characters. and
OracleCardsAndGames: I get that. Yeah. I loved the characters too, but there there was just like the the humane side of him was like, let him die.
neocharge: Right, it's a mercy.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, yeah, it I hate to say that it's a mercy killing, but it is. like but
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, it is for sure.
OracleCardsAndGames: and but and And then i wanted to I sat and thought about it afterwards. I'm like, okay, well, on the Desondre family side of things, are they grieving now? Like, is Aline going to try and go back in the painting to fix all this?
Leon Lionheartly: Nope, they moved on. The final part of that cutscene is what really sold me. When they're standing at Verso's grave and everybody was there. That means the family is finally moving on. But I totally get what you're saying, Matt.
Leon Lionheartly: And that's what I love about this game. This right here. Because it gives you a decision and it doesn't present it as neither right or wrong, but it creates a conversation.
neocharge: Yep.
neocharge: Exactly.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: Yeah, and it's so divisive.
OracleCardsAndGames: they're Yeah, they're both phenomenal endings, don't get me wrong. And it it shows a lot about like what type of player each of us were when we were playing the game.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, yeah, Caleb, you you mentioned that you had like the wool over your eyes and you fell in love with the characters and you just couldn't bring yourself to do it. I get it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, we we all had the same experience. We just... it's It's too thought-provoking for a definitive answer.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, exactly.
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm like, what is right, what is wrong?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): We interpreted it in different ways and that's amazing.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: It's beautiful.
OracleCardsAndGames: And that's...
neocharge: That's what art is.
OracleCardsAndGames: Exactly. like it'ss It's kind of like modern art in a sense, where if it's a dot on the page, one person could say that it's beautiful, and another person could say this is an art.
neocharge: Right?
OracleCardsAndGames: It's objective, entirely. There's no right or wrong answer. I personally think my answer was right, but that's just me being prideful.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, and that's fair.
OracleCardsAndGames: So...
Leon Lionheartly: Bye.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): One of the crazier thoughts that I had had like weeks weeks after, even after coming to terms with my choice, I thought ah similarly when Mael's eyes changed a little bit, I was like, the only thing I really felt bad about was, well, fuck, she's just going to go crazy like Aline
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know I mean, she's because she's still in that grief. Like, I know why a mother would enter this painting to be near her son that's been killed.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, I i i get it. And I'm not a parent. But I, you know, like, yeah, like, that's just, I get that.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, and and she did it to be with her brother. Like, it's...
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So But she's going to go fucking nuts because she can't live in the painting forever. I mean, Renoir warned us about that. um
neocharge: right
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, did I just doom everybody? Like, is she just going to go fucking crazy and she's just going to kill everybody in like a hundred years and be like, sorry, guys, like my power is going away.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Live your life and just start this expedition shit all over again. I don't know.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Probably. But.
neocharge: you know You know, another...
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, because Renoir has already shown what he'd do to get his wife back.
neocharge: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Who knows what he'd do to get his daughter.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right.
neocharge: That's true. You know another movie that has this theme? one ah Another one of my favorite ones. It's a Nolan movie. Inception.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, well, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Oh, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I had a feeling you were going there.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah. Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah. Because at the end, you know, well, I won't spoil Inception.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but But yeah, the exactly. The end is like, it's thought provoking as this where certain people would say, well, this is what happened.
neocharge: Right. ah Exactly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And others would be like, no, I saw the thing. And you're like, neither one is right. And in that beautiful moment, I remember seeing it in theaters and thinking like that motherfucker just incepted the entire audience.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They just think what we wanted to think, which is the whole point of the goddamn movie, which is like brilliant, you know, and that, the yeah, very much like this.
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's just,
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but
neocharge: And throughout the...
Leon Lionheartly: that's the ah I was going to say, that's the beautiful part about this art is I will a thousand, thousand percent stand behind my decision.
neocharge: Go ahead.
Leon Lionheartly: Just like Matt is willing to die on the hill of his decision. And it's not that either one is right. But it has put us into it based on our our experiences.
Leon Lionheartly: It has driven ah driven a perspective that has ah derived the outcome. And it's not the classic, oh, well, there's a renegade and there's a paragon ending.
Leon Lionheartly: There's a good and there's a bad ending. This is a very much in the gray area. And I love it. I love it. I love it.
neocharge: Now let me touch on a subject that's really going to bake your noodle. So if Maelle is painting everything and controlling everyone in this world, and she controls Verso, what makes her different than us, the player?
OracleCardsAndGames: She doesn't have a controller or a keyboard.
neocharge: Yeah, but if you break the fourth wall, are we painters as well?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like, this is going sound creepy.
OracleCardsAndGames: I didn't design the world, though.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I don't mean it in a creepy way, but I think she's a lot sexier than all of us.
neocharge: but Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I know she's a child, so that's, like, fucked up to say, but just ah as an objective person, that's the only thing I can come up with, this is that she's different because of it.
neocharge: but but yeah i do I do think she was older in that last cutscene, the Maelle ending.
Leon Lionheartly: You
OracleCardsAndGames: Yes, very much.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, she was.
neocharge: ah Yeah, she was older, so less creepy.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So it's less creepy, but, you know.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, because Gustav had more gray in his hair and more gray in his beard, so he had definitely aged more.
neocharge: Yep.
neocharge: Yep, everyone was older, and Verso was definitely older, too. so Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: you
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, Luna could still get it.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: doesn't matter.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: that was good
Leon Lionheartly: You're right, Matt. And that that's the the point of making is this game's theme underlying is acceptance. I think truly what this game is trying to say, and this is I know it's my skewed perspective on on my own ah background and ah my experiences,
Leon Lionheartly: um But we are almost four hours into this. We still haven't even talked about the end game. What the game is trying to tell you is there are dangers to not escaping the story and leveling yourself with reality.
Leon Lionheartly: We still have to work in the morning. We still have to go do jobs. We still have to... we This is the danger of doing that. So enjoy the moment while you can because we went through the five stages of grief with Gustav all the way back in act one.
OracleCardsAndGames: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I was in denial that he was dead.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: I was then angry. Then I was like, well, maybe Verso's not as bad. And then I got depressed because the guess what? We buried Gustav's arm. And then I finally came to acceptance.
neocharge: Oh, that part.
Leon Lionheartly: We went through grief. So as far as I'm concerned, that's what this entire game was trying to get lead us to.
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, and it was very interesting being the first one to finish it. And that's why I was trying to keep a pulse on everyone. you know I wanted to see the temperature as the game flowed because I know what I experienced. I wanted to see different perspectives.
Leon Lionheartly: ah Oh, man.
neocharge: And yeah, I was just like, you want to talk about it?
Leon Lionheartly: I can't believe you still did that, you motherfucker.
neocharge: Yeah, man, what ah what a game. What a game.
Leon Lionheartly: What again?
neocharge: ah And it sounds like we're pretty divisive with our endings. And yeah, I stand by my ending. And I would much rather be in the painting with everyone painted. And I just, I can't rob every everyone of their free will.
neocharge: like you they They were painted with free will. And that's not my choice. That's theirs. If they want to not exist, that's their choice. Not mine.
OracleCardsAndGames: Well, call me a dictator because they're all getting executed.
neocharge: I can't do it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like, but every time.
Leon Lionheartly: I'm sorry.
OracleCardsAndGames: it's i No, there was too much of a love for Verso come the end of the game. Like, I spent the entire game...
neocharge: But I loved Verso. He was my favorite.
OracleCardsAndGames: i I spent almost the entire game hating him.
neocharge: That's the thing.
OracleCardsAndGames: And then towards the end, I was like, oh my god, I love him. And then already at that point, like, by the time i even got to... ah Renoir at the very end of the game, I had started hating my L. Like, why why is she this godlike character? Why does she get to be, you know, super, super important?
OracleCardsAndGames: Why is there? Why does she have all this plot armor? Like, I've seen enough anime to know OP when no P is present. Okay, she was Goku in this world and nobody can deny that fact.
OracleCardsAndGames: Like it it got to the point where where I'm like, she she kind of sucks as a character. So i just I just couldn't side with her.
neocharge: Interesting.
OracleCardsAndGames: there there was There was no way I could.
neocharge: The subjective avenue of art. I love it.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: And this game is dripping with it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh, yeah.
neocharge: that That was the...
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, we could go on about this for hours.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: i know.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: are Are we going to crack four hours on this podcast and talk about in-game and builds?
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
neocharge: We have to, right?
Leon Lionheartly: We have to.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, yeah, we can...
neocharge: Yeah. and this is This is a special podcast. It was a 60-hour game when you you platinum it. And you can't cram all that in two hours, man.
neocharge: And people can listen to this in chunks or however they want.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Plus, this this game was oozing with everything.
neocharge: And...
neocharge: Yeah, it was.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You know, love, hate, grief, anger, rage, beauty. just There's so many things. and it's i mean i like I enjoy talking about games, obviously.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You guys invited me here. I love it. um But i would you know I wouldn't want to do it
neocharge: We love you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): with just anybody because, A, I want them to experience it for themselves if they haven't, even if they don't have any interest, I would i would push them there strongly.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But this is, again, I think I said it in the beginning of this episode where games like this don't come along, stories like this don't come along very often. Some people never experience this kind of thing you know i mean in their own way.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): They might find a different form of art that they love. ah
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Some people live their whole lives and don't hear music that means anything to them. And that makes me very sad, generally, ah or excuse me, genuinely.
neocharge: Yep. Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um And with this game, it's like I joke that I could talk about it for 12 hours and probably still not cover everything. um And I think that's true. I really think that that if I play through it again in French or in English again, I'm going to notice something.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, i did definitely pick up on things pretty well first time through, but there's always something else that's probably going probably going to cry halfway through the second playthrough and just be like, I didn't even think about this thing.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh my God. Who knows? But... Yeah, let's get into some end game builds and talk about how to fuck shit up with the damage cap broken. That's a little bit more fun than this depressing end of existence or, you know, right?
neocharge: right right yeah in act three they give you a uh picto the uh the painted power that uh breaks your your damage cap and you can do it just nine nine hundred nine nine million nine hundred nine nine thousand nine hundred nine nine uh And you yeah, the the build crafting in this game is amazing.
neocharge: ah As for combat perspective, I did play this on the edge and I put parry on the left paddle or right paddle and dodge on the left paddle.
neocharge: And that was really beneficial because you usually dodge with circle and parry with, I think it was either R1.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It was R1 because I wanted it to be L1.
neocharge: and Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I wanted to remap that so bad for my Sekiro.
neocharge: Right. Well, if you had, yeah had a DualSense, you could. DualSense Edge.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I know, but yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, so i was edging during this game.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, it it was QWE. Q was dodge. W is gradient parry, and E is parry. Space is jump.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Huh.
neocharge: Gotcha, gotcha.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah Just the game's default controls for PC. And then the menu's navigated with WASD, and then if you're in your abilities, it's WASD and R to switch over to the second stack of them.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: That sounds confusing.
OracleCardsAndGames: It's not actually... ah I mean, I guess it kind of is. but You guys guys played with the controller, so like you guys were talking about controller controls.
neocharge: Acceptance.
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm like, oh, that sounds super convenient. I'm over here like, I've got a tiny blob on the keyboard I've got to use but for the whole game.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): right
neocharge: Acceptance is the first step to becoming a console gamer.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: No, no.
OracleCardsAndGames: Not going happen, but it's okay.
Leon Lionheartly: Acceptance is the first step to taking Verso's ending.
neocharge: right oh god absolutely not
Leon Lionheartly: don't know. yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah i will I will get a PS5 when you guys accept Verso's ending was right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah I mean, to get you to get a PS5, I feel like I'd be doing you a favor. Like, sure, go for it.
neocharge: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It was right.
OracleCardsAndGames: No, my my my PC outperforms a PS5.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's fine.
Leon Lionheartly: love
OracleCardsAndGames: Extremely outperforms a PS5.
neocharge: ps5 pro probably uh
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah I mean, probably.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): If he knows how to build them, sure.
Leon Lionheartly: and
neocharge: Right, right.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: So, yeah, endgame super bosses. We got Sprong. We got so the serpent hair or something.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, can't remember what it's called, but that fucking thing that flew around and annoyed me half the game when I'd look up and be like, I'm going to kill you someday.
neocharge: I don't... Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: I called it Shenron.
neocharge: And actually shows up in Flying Waters in the Skybox.
OracleCardsAndGames: It
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, super cool.
OracleCardsAndGames: does, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: I actually... i was stupid, because the entire time i was going around the world map in the early game, I didn't even pay attention to the giant snake.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: I noticed the pink floating whale. And I was like, I want to fight the floating whale. And it turns out it's just a fucking casino for an outfit.
neocharge: Oh, yeah. Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: I'm like, this is bullshit. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Right, right. ah Yeah, we got Clea, and then we got Simon. And then we got all the Chromatic enemies. There were some tough ones, but ah let's let's talk about Clea's fight and how how we overcame that.
neocharge: ah She was hard, and she had some interesting mechanics to where you had to learn the parry. And you could you could dodge every once in a while, but she was just going to heal herself.
neocharge: It was crazy. And when you parried, you broke her chroma ah bubble, her shield, and then you could do damage on her with just the parry ah counterattack.
neocharge: And that's the only way you could do damage on her. It it was a wall of a fight and it flipped the script on the mechanics. And it's like, oh, no, you're going to learn to parry now.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: So I know, ah Bob, you were struggling on this fight and then you came over, you kind of sat back from it. You you had some time away from it. You came over and you fucking annihilated her.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: ah Yeah, that's ah that's the nice way to put it. ah She gave me a lot of trouble because I was building more defensively um in ah in this game where I was using Lunay as more of a healer backup slash reviver.
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: and
Leon Lionheartly: um That all changed after after the Cleo fight because of the Pictou that you get.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah Hell of a big toe.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: it any
neocharge: Poof, broken.
OracleCardsAndGames: We're almost done.
Leon Lionheartly: and And I remember sitting with you, Matt, trying to figure out, okay, well, you were explaining, well, have you tried this? And I'm like, no, but I'm using this. This is my build. And it eventually became a, well, let me show you the issue that I'm having, right?
Leon Lionheartly: And somehow it lined up to where it was, she was stunned, she was marked, and I had level three gradient attack. And I was like, let me show you. Let me show you what happens. but She just takes everything and gommaged her.
Leon Lionheartly: um And this is before I got the really broken stuff later on. And it was like, boom, she went from two thirds health down to nothing. And I hit her for fucking 14 million damage in one shot.
Leon Lionheartly: And it was like, Oh, okay.
neocharge: not
Leon Lionheartly: That's one way to get it around the fight. Uh, um, because I had all of the, I had all of the parries down, but it was once you get to that, that, that lower half of her life bar, um, that if you don't,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: ah know your parries. um You're screwed. And i thought I thought that fight was rough um until I met somebody else, which we'll talk about later.
neocharge: Right.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: um'm So, Caleb, I know you broke a lot of damage cap.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: How'd this work out for you? Hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So you're about to get mad. ah I ran into Clea with my grinding team. Like I had stupid fucking Pictos on, and it wasn't even my main team. It's funny. We talked about the characters that we used a little bit. Like when we started the game, the podcast, spoiler cast, CL was,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like a silent assassin. Like she was so good when you figured out how to use her. And I, but I never, I didn't use her as often as the others.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Like it's nothing against her. I just, I favored the others more. And so she was always in my grind team just to try to like, you know, Oh, I don't want her to fall behind so much in level and stuff.
neocharge: right
Leon Lionheartly: Thank
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I always had like bullshit pictos that I was like, I need to learn these. Let's just do some fights. And I didn't re I mean, he they tell you like when you go through this door, you're going to find this thing.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): You know, it's going to be, I knew it was going to be a boss fight, but I legitimately, I think I saved it and then had to quit for the night. So when I came back the next day, I was just like, let's just go through here and see what's up. And the fight started and I was like, shit, I have like a garbage team and I don't know what to do.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Um, so I did like trash damage for a little bit. you know, I was just learning the fight, um, got her down a little bit. Cause I, you know, we talked about it earlier, I forgot that Dodge existed in this game. I always just straight up parried. I was risk reward, you know, um she healed for like half a million or, you know, whatever, whatever that number was.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, fuck, like, what what do I do now? Like I had no idea. And then i was like, wait a minute. I can do this. Like I can come back from the brink. So I basically used my garbage party and like I one shot her.
Leon Lionheartly: So
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, I mean i didn't kill her in one hit, but i I got her the first try and I was like really proud of myself. And I did think I was like, I wonder if that's the secret boss that everybody says is like an asshole. You know, I don't know. Cause she, she wasn't easy, but she also wasn't like, I wasn't that scared of like wiping.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was just scared. I'm not going to be able to do it because she doesn't take that much damage from me. You know? um And eventually I had to like stunlock her and break her and just like keep her to get her down. And then i think I had texted Matt and he was like, no, not yet.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, oh good. It gets hard. You know, but I was like, fuck, like, I, I was close.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was worried. I was going to actually finally have to restart like a fight, you know? Cause I hadn't up to, at that point in the game, I was like, but I had my shitty team in with like bad pictos. I think CL had like 1600 health or something, like just a joke.
neocharge: Oh, wow.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I had stupid pictos on her and I was like, well, let's see what happens. And you know, but yeah, that was, it was a good fight. I thought it was thematically appropriate. I loved the way that it fit.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I felt like an idiot for not realizing like one of the rules that I've learned as I age, I try to make it before I quit a game for the night or for the day. so that the next time I start the game, i can just go instead of like, oh, let me log in or you know log in, not that you log into this game, but you know what i mean? Let me load my save and then like fuck with my build forever. like I'm not going to do that.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I actually became a hard rule for me with The Witcher 3, which was way too late in my life.
neocharge: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I knew that if i if I started the game and the mission was not like two feet in front of me,
neocharge: okay
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I was going to play for 16 hours and not do the one thing that I started to play for. I would end up on the other side of the map. And in this game, I, at this save, I just forgot to do it. I think it was late. I think I told my wife, like, I'll be up in an hour and three hours pass. And I was like, shit.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So I just, oops, had the bad party in, but no, her fight was really cool. um And I, again, felt bad. You know, when you learn the story, you feel bad for what's going on. You're like, God, what a,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): What a sad state of affairs. But, ah I mean, Alex, you did it today, ah right, when you came home from work?
neocharge: yeah yeah you did.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And you were presumably a relatively low level. I don't know what my level was when I fought Clea.
OracleCardsAndGames: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I can't remember, but probably not as low as yours.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, mid-60s right now.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Okay.
Leon Lionheartly: oh
OracleCardsAndGames: um
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Well done.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, so... um The whole build... um This is the first time I ever brought in because she can buff. And so she can apply all kinds of shit.
OracleCardsAndGames: So ah brought... It was CL versus Myel. Are you tweaking over there?
neocharge: get closer to the mic
OracleCardsAndGames: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: Oh, okay.
Leon Lionheartly: Amen.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah so Sorry, I'm used to like relaxing. I'm not used to being right up on my mic.
neocharge: You're good, you're good.
OracleCardsAndGames: I'll just act like I'm playing league. um So, yeah. So, my bill or my team was ah ah CL versus Myel. And then... Just all of the first strike pictos, energizing attack pictos, whole nine yards.
OracleCardsAndGames: um And was just based around me buffing the shit out of my L so I can smack a that Cleo with Stendhal.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Definitely.
OracleCardsAndGames: And that's what did it for me. It took four hits.
neocharge: Wow. Holy crap. It took me a while to get Clea. And I had to really, that that's the beautiful thing about this game is you just keep breaking and you're like, oh this game can't break anymore.
neocharge: And then you break it more.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): thats What a bet.
neocharge: Yeah, you break it more. And and during the endgame, I found a lot of broken Pictos and I kept picking up ones and I'm like, wait, that'll match with this and that will complement this.
neocharge: And I eventually found one that fills the break bar upon death. And I put that on Lunay. And I had her auto revive too.
neocharge: So I literally go into a fight. Lune dies.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: Every break bar fills and she revives and I'm ready to go with Verso. And I have the break on base attack or i can use Phantom Stars because I had the the double AP from the Serpent Hair and AP wasn't an issue.
OracleCardsAndGames: Okay.
neocharge: And I would just break them immediately. And it was great. And then I put death bomb on Lunay. So I was literally having one second fights when I would just go and I would be exploring ah older, lower level areas.
neocharge: The fight would start, Lunay would explode and the fight would end. so Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So much fun.
Leon Lionheartly: a
neocharge: Yeah, you can...
OracleCardsAndGames: A lovely interaction that I found with the Pictos that helped me throughout the bulk of the game. Any of the damage increasing Pictos, obviously they stack. um They also stack with roulette.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: um Which, like, when I first got it, I was like, oh, this is terrible. like I might do 50% damage, I might do 200% damage.
OracleCardsAndGames: But all of a sudden, it didn't matter when I was at minimum doing 100% damage.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yep.
OracleCardsAndGames: And it became 100% to 300%. And I'm like, okay, this is really good. And then obviously Mael just cracks all that, turns it up to 11.
OracleCardsAndGames: And it's just essentially just beating beating the brakes off of everybody.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Before all of that, and I figured out all those synergies with the Pictos, it was just straight burn damage the entire game.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: Whatever Lunae could do, whatever Mael could do to just burn enemies to death was all I did.
neocharge: Oh yeah. The burn mechanic broke the the game and just the, the Picto building and then the drop in the luminous in the characters. I mean, at the end of it the, the game verso, I had them to 500 luminous.
neocharge: Yeah, ah dude.
Leon Lionheartly: ah Oh my god.
neocharge: i should So I usually like just dump all of the stat boosting items into the main character and just make them a beast. And verso to me was my main character.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: um And yeah, I had him to 500. So he would do a base attack and it would just... Just all the perks would come up. It was crazy.
Leon Lionheartly: So what I'm hearing is he was your main character until the ending? Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Sorry, but I see where you're going with that.
OracleCardsAndGames: That's called commitment issues, ladies and gentlemen.
neocharge: Well, I mean, if if I chose the Verso ending, he would not be my main character because he would die.
Leon Lionheartly: ah
neocharge: So I wanted to keep him...
Leon Lionheartly: i love it. I love it. Yeah.
neocharge: I wanted to keep him alive and I wanted him to be the...
OracleCardsAndGames: ah is it or But is he truly living in the Miel ending?
neocharge: What? Yeah,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): We don't know. That's greatest part.
neocharge: yeah because he's still painting. Part of his soul is living, the real Verso, and you get multiple Versos.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: I wanted all the Versos I i need could get.
Leon Lionheartly: you know it's
neocharge: ah Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: ah good
neocharge: if If you choose the Verso ending, you technically kill Verso.
Leon Lionheartly: ah that is That is true. um
neocharge: And then you can argue, is he already dead?
Leon Lionheartly: Damn
neocharge: Because he had technically died in his souls. God, fuck this game.
Leon Lionheartly: it. You see, you already got me going. I was about to say it, motherfucker.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): f
Leon Lionheartly: It's... I... yeah it's
OracleCardsAndGames: If you choose the Verso ending, though, you do get the Force Mile to suffer reality like the rest of us.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: i
neocharge: In reality, it sucks.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I couldn't do that to Gustav. He was protecting her for a reason. She must be protected forever.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's true.
Leon Lionheartly: Gustav will live on in her Gustav's Remembrance attack.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's true.
neocharge: Oh, yeah. You guys got that when you kept doing his journal?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah
neocharge: i every Every campfire scene, I would go and look at his journal and what?
Leon Lionheartly: ah ah but Speaking of journals, I'm sorry. We forgot to mention this earlier, or at least I forgot to mention it. I wanted to bring it up. I would like to mention and nominate that while Expedition 33 is the best Expedition or the disaster Expedition, Expedition 60 is full of fucking chads.
Leon Lionheartly: okay
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): that's
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Was that the drunk expedition? Nope.
Leon Lionheartly: No, that's that's the expedition. all right, so you probably, i don't know if you saw it. It's in Lumiere. Expedition 60 is the expedition that said, um we don't need weapons. We don't need uniforms.
Leon Lionheartly: We only need our bodies. They trained it.
neocharge: Oh, they were the nudist ones.
Leon Lionheartly: they they Yeah, they trained their bodies to be nothing more than just machines that worked with nothing but like 2% body fat and swam all the way to the Pinterest, found Renoir, and came all the way back buck-ass naked.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: It's so so beautiful, honestly. So much beauty in that world.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah. Yeah. ah
Leon Lionheartly: Shit, I remember where I was going with that one. Oh, yeah. I remember, Matt. um So you mentioned the the death automatically ah having Lunay drop. um That's where I finally realized, oh, you can break the game.
Leon Lionheartly: I did that exact same thing with the ah then the final Superboss.
neocharge: Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Whenever you guys want to get into that, that's what I did. as I finally just had everybody die. come back to life, and then, oh shit, they came back to life and they're out now they're all buffed.
neocharge: Right. So, yeah. I mean, we can get into that super boss if you want.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I mean, Alex, are you cool with that?
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Because you clearly haven't gotten there yet.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, that's fine.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Okay.
OracleCardsAndGames: I don't care. I'm probably going to do it tonight.
neocharge: So what do we all think of Simon?
Leon Lionheartly: Hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm gonna let Bob go first on this one.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Fuck that guy. well but um So Simon was the, I had to finally accept that I'm getting old in video games moment um because I could not parry ah parry him. And then anytime i was like, oh, I'm finally getting to where i understand his attack patterns and I think I'm good.
Leon Lionheartly: The game cheats again. ah So eventually I broke down and I was like, all right, I'm not going to look up a guide on the beat them, but I need to know some tips. So that's when I eventually started looking in and was like, all right, what are some tips?
Leon Lionheartly: um What are some things that are going on? And then I understood if you stack up the Pictou's in the right way, you can one shot them straight up, just one shot them.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: And I did that exact same thing you said, Matt, where I had um specifically, I had Verso, I had my L and I had CL and CL and verso automatically died and then came back to life and D, uh, in a creative buffs for my L. And then it was, it was simple.
Leon Lionheartly: As soon as I got that opportunity, my L did, um, I don't remember the name of it where she drops herself to one HP. She gives herself a bunch of shields and then,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: oh because she's at 1 HP, she stacks a bunch of Pictos. Oh, and she has inverted infinity. Inversion affinity. So she's inverted on top of that.
Leon Lionheartly: All right, cool. She goes away. Verso comes up back and mark or breaks ah Simon, then marks him. And then CL goes, all right, cool. I'm going to double the damage on my L. Oh, by the way, it's my L's turn.
Leon Lionheartly: Let me go ahead and shoot you with Stendhal. Congratulations. You did 79 million damage in one shot.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Hehehehe.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: crap. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: like
neocharge: Dang. Oh, wow.
OracleCardsAndGames: That was how I did Cleo.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah. a yeah
neocharge: i I got to Simon and saw some of his tax attacks and I was like, nope.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Just especially his third phase, dude.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah
neocharge: Oh my God. So I was like, I can't let this man attack me. So at first I just annihilated his first phase. and was like, oh, this was the super boss. And then, yeah, his second phase comes up.
neocharge: His sword just gets... comically big ah and he has like echoes of the attacks. it's It's nuts. And I was like, I can't let this man attack. So I came up with the build. and ah Basically stun locked him.
neocharge: ah Verso had ah serum, the weapon that doesn't let him go above a And you i had all the combo Pictos on Verso.
neocharge: So he did three base attacks. ah one ba like One attack would bring him to A. And then I used Endbringer, which would reapply stun to a stunned enemy.
neocharge: And he was stunned because he was broken at the beginning of the battle, right, from Lunay. Breaks the bar. ah Verso stuns him, and then Verso goes again because I had second turn on everyone.
neocharge: And then it Stuns him with Inbringer, again, reapplies stun, and then Lunay. Lunay was my main main damage dealer, honestly. So I had second turn on her, and I had her using Kratom or something like that.
neocharge: It gave you two stains at the beginning of your turn, and her her luck was crazy high.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: I think it was above 100%. So she was getting all the stains she needed on Elemental Trick. And then on the second turn, Elemental Genesis. And I had her critting pretty much every attack.
neocharge: ah And then, so that was my main damage. And then it would go to my L and ah she wouldn't be able to do a lot on her first turn.
neocharge: And then Simon would just kill me. So I had to be like... what the fuck am I going to do? So I saw CL had a ability that passes a turn to another person and gives them pretty much more AP.
neocharge: So that's what I did. I brought CL in to basically basically do her ability to apply Rush, Powerful, and Shell all the same time, buff that, and then I used Lune's Crippling Tsunami to slow down Simon, and I got to a point where I would stun lock, uh, Lunae damage, and then CL pass the turn to Verso.
neocharge: So he could stun lock again, Lunae damage, CL pass it.
Leon Lionheartly: you
neocharge: And I just had him stun lock the entire fight. He didn't hit me, he hit me once, ah but then i I killed him with Skybreak, I think, Lunay's level three gradient attack.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Okay.
neocharge: So that was my stun lock build and I used that for a lot. It was great. And Verso, dude, Phantom Stars would just break everyone because their break bar was full because of Lunay's auto break upon death.
neocharge: Yeah, it was nuts. And then grinding to level 99, it was just... I was wiping people. the The creations, the chromatic creations, just... One, three turns, they're gone.
neocharge: I broke that game so heavily. But I like Simon because you break the game and you're like, ha ha, I broke the game. And then the devs are like, well, we're going to break the game on this side now.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you
neocharge: So good luck.
Leon Lionheartly: You
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, I love Simon. And what a fucking souls boss, dude. Holy shit.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And the music for it. I mean, you know, we know' I can't talk about the music enough for this game.
neocharge: ah And the music.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I really can't. It's just top tier.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So funny story about my Simon.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um One of the things Matt was following my progression, you know, through trophies and whatnot. and ah But he didn't want to tell me specifics. And I appreciate he's like, if you you know, done the super secret boss yet.
neocharge: Of course.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I'm like, I don't fucking know. The hardest thing I fought was Clea. But like, I'm I'm not you told me that's not it. So I guess not. But he's like asking me. you know, like where have you not visited or where have you visited? And I'm just like, I'm pretty sure it went everywhere.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But I knew that there were like two or three zones left within like areas within a zone. And sorry, I'm going to just tell you this, Alex, it's in Renoir's drafts. um
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
OracleCardsAndGames: and I've gathered as much.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. I mean, where else would it be? But like, I was like, there's, there's like two areas I need to go.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And the only one I know for sure is like, there's this long hallway with light. And then there's this other one that I just haven't visited yet. And Matt's just like, okay. So he's telling me like, you're not prepared for this final, final big bad.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I don't remember if I said, I was like, what is this like emerald weapon or Ruby weapon? Like what, you know, what are we talking about for the first time, you know?
neocharge: Mmm.
Leon Lionheartly: o
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And he's just like, nah, you'll see. So I had probably overprepared because I was like, what are we going to do?
Leon Lionheartly: you
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But I didn't, you know, I don't know the mechanics. I don't know. Maybe he inverts everybody as the fight starts and I'm just going to fucking die immediately. Like, i don't know. um So after the fight, I'll get back to what I did for the fight. But after the fight, I had asked Matt, like, what was your strategy?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And he told me about a stun lock build. And I was like, damn, that's pretty smart. You know, and you know, that's cool. But he, during the fight. So I, I go down this long hallway and I, you know, stumble upon simon Simon and I'm just like, this guy looks cool as fuck. You know, like I just immediately like, all right, I'm ready to get destroyed.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So I one shot him in the first phase. I didn't know there were phases.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like i did I didn't, I didn't have a clue. And like, You know, the the the the splash screen comes up of like battle results and stuff. And I don't know, I hit him for 89 million. I don't even remember. It was just like a Stendhal thing.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah But my build was Verso and Mark basically weaken the enemy with with some shots or a shot usually. um And then CL would just like, she had two turns in a row. So she would buff Mael and then she would give Mael the turn.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Now I had this Pictou build with my L and I wish I knew all of them off top my head, but I should have looked earlier today and i didn't have time.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um Where I had loaded her up with first attack does a fuckload of damage. You know, you get all the things for your very first turn. And I thought, you know, the move where she goes to one health and then like gets shields.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I did a little bit of the math for other fights too, not just this one, but this was my like, going to kill you ah team in in one shot. And if that doesn't work, then I guess I'll learn the mechanics of the game. Like that's fine.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But I didn't want to waste her first turn to go down to one health to give her the other buffs because I had more damage output for turn one. So I was like, how am I going to do this? And then I discovered with CL, you could, you could buff her and stuff.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So I finished that the splash screen comes up and I, I send a picture to Matt and I was like, I thought you said this boss was hard. Like this was stupid. You know? i mean, I did, I was like, whatever. And then I realized like, I knew that I was going to get a trophy for the secret boss, no trophy pops.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then it's like, and Matt was just like, are you fucking kidding me? And then the cut scene starts.
neocharge: so
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was like, wait, I think there's more. And he goes, wait, you didn't know there was a phase two. I was like, oh no, like, what have I done? I one shot the second phase too.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I sent him a picture. i think I did 148 million or something. And I wrote, I may have overprepared for this fight.
Leon Lionheartly: Okay.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah You didn't even get to see like his real moves. You know, I didn't.
neocharge: Oh my God.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I just like killed him. So I looked up a fight afterward, like a normal fight so that I could see. And I was like, oh yeah, I could see why this would be hard. but like i and didn't it didn't
neocharge: Uh-huh.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): it's So I did beat him, but oops. like i just That's how I was killing creation. That's how I was killing other things. like I found this just this setup that was like, you're toast.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I was grinding. I was just trying to you know get levels really fast.
neocharge: Right, right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): So I don't know if I did it justice, you know, I mean, really, but I took their toolbox and I made it work for me and I still had a great time, you know, like that was awesome.
neocharge: Exactly.
Leon Lionheartly: and
neocharge: they recently They recently patched the game that you can go back and fight Simon whenever you want.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I probably should do that with like my B team just to see, you know, who, I don't know.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It might be fun. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: people
neocharge: I kind of want to because I had him stunlocked. He he didn't attack me. I didn't even see the the red phase or anything because I kind of want to go back and like learn him.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: ah Have you guys seen the videos of people that have really learned him?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): No, no.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: It is unreal.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: ah So to give you the idea, Caleb, so the you you know that first phase, he'll attack, and it's like, boom, boom, there's cadence to it. Well, then during the second the second battle, his attacks now have the shadow attack.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: So it's if it's, but a let's say in his first phase, it's bop, bop, bop. Now it's bop, bop, bop, bop. up Well, the problem is, and I'm not going to spoil it, but the game cheats during the second battle um drastically.
Leon Lionheartly: and ah Fuck it, it spoils it, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, no, go for it. you know
neocharge: spoiler cast.
Leon Lionheartly: if you get him If you get him down to a third, like I want to say it's around a third of a percent of his health, um he commages your primary party.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's awesome. That's very cool.
Leon Lionheartly: ah So, and then he goes, oh, by the way, instead of being bop, bop, bop, it's bop, bop, bop, bop.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: So you have to do it not twice, but three times on the shadow.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Three triplets.
Leon Lionheartly: um i
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'll take it.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's fine.
Leon Lionheartly: i've i've seen I've seen people who have locked in on that and um I don't have that level of weaponized autism.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): laughter
Leon Lionheartly: It's
OracleCardsAndGames: I might have that level of weaponized autism.
Leon Lionheartly: you a
neocharge: You got this.
OracleCardsAndGames: I want to try it now. I want to try it now.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah, you I think you could do it.
neocharge: oh yeah. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: I think you you could definitely do it, Alex. It's it's it's unreal, um which is why I one-shot him, just like you.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah I mean, I just, I guess I didn't know.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): ah just did it because Matt scared the shit out of me. And I was like, i don't, I don't know if I'm like, I figured, cause I, I'll just tell you the move I did. Part of my setup for it was to fill your, to your level three.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And i was like trying to figure out is Stendhal stronger than Gommage? I don't, I didn't know. And so I was like trying it on other bosses and stuff for my first attack with my L after buffing her.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And like, i didn't I just still couldn't really figure out if it was the better choice until I fought, um I want to say, just like some creations. I was like changing my build all the time to fight those to see how fast I could go.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And then i was like, yeah, i'm goingnna I'm going to just do gommage on this guy. Also because it was thematically appropriate.
Leon Lionheartly: think can i can i Can I say, so um there is what you're saying right there about the testing.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: This is one of the few things about this game that I really hope um later on, if we get if we get a sequel, whatever their next creation is going to be, that was sorely missing with this game. and i please ah Maybe they can patch it in, which is, please give us the ability to do loadouts.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, i I did want loadouts very much when I was playing.
neocharge: Oh, yeah, for sure.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And i that was another thing that I kind of like, you know, double A team, small studio, we got a masterpiece in this.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm just going to sort of overlook that. But like, man, would it have been nice to be like, you know, like 10 loadouts, just like, let me pick these teams for, I don't know, magic based or speed based or whatever.
Leon Lionheartly: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I do agree, I think.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And elements, because elements play in this game. I feel that way about Final Fantasy VII Remake and Rebirth, like material loadouts. Fuck you guys for making me have to like redo every Chadley thing.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know I mean, yes, it's fun, but also ah you know just at at a certain point, I think I've earned it, and and i I do agree for sure.
neocharge: yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yep. Alright, cool. I'm glad I'm not the only one because i was screaming the entire time when I built a one-shot build, but I also had a build that allowed Lunay to nuke pretty much anything on the map um because I was running the... ah i was running a hundred over... It was like Matt's hot. It was like 113% chance.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): nice
neocharge: ah yeah
Leon Lionheartly: I'm on her. um So then it was, all right, cool. I'm going to do elemental trick, get one of every elemental site, and then I'm going to do elemental Genesis. Cool. Congratulations. I win the match.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: um But that doesn't work against Simon.
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: So give me a loadout.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
Leon Lionheartly: ah Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm so excited to hear what Alex does when he tries it like how this goes I can't wait ah please report back
neocharge: Nope.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah. And...
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Bob will probably be the first one to hear about it. He'll probably get a phone call of me in tears or some shit if I'm doing terribly.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): for
neocharge: Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, and if if one person dies when you're fighting Simon, he just... ejects them from the battlefield.
Leon Lionheartly: um
neocharge: He's like, Nope. Bye. If you don't revive him. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's perfect. That's great.
neocharge: I know.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): That's a secret super boss for sure.
neocharge: Uh, Oh yeah. He's a wall for sure. And, uh, he is the one that killed Clea's axon. He's the one that dropped all those swords on, uh, old Lumiere.
neocharge: So, yep.
Leon Lionheartly: and
OracleCardsAndGames: So he is the final boss.
neocharge: He is indeed the final boss.
Leon Lionheartly: He's also...
neocharge: Uh, What? Oh, yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Can I say...
neocharge: Yeah, I mean, it's a spoiler cast and people... yeah
Leon Lionheartly: He's... ah Well, it's for Alex's face sake. ah
neocharge: Right, right.
Leon Lionheartly: He's Kalia...
OracleCardsAndGames: i don't care.
Leon Lionheartly: In the real world, he's Kalia's boyfriend.
neocharge: Yeah, and he was part of Expedition Zero, too.
Leon Lionheartly: He's berserk. Yeah.
neocharge: yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Oh.
neocharge: He was Verso's friend.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I like to think that he's actually Simon Belmont and he's just the thick crossover that we didn't know we needed.
neocharge: So...
neocharge: Yes.
Leon Lionheartly: he's preserv
neocharge: Hell yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: he's berserk
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
neocharge: Right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: That sword.
Leon Lionheartly: yeah
neocharge: Dude, so many amazing inspirations. Wow. What a game. that ah Man, our game of the year, a game for the ages. Just wow.
neocharge: we We had a lot to cover. And if if you made it this far, thanks so much for hanging out with us for over four hours.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): right It's too bad we can't say that in the beginning.
neocharge: ah yeah I would recommend consuming this podcast in chunks, maybe. ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): like if they've gotten here, that's not helpful.
neocharge: Right.
Leon Lionheartly: I'm sorry.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But you're right.
neocharge: um but ill put I'll put it in the description.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): There you go. can i I did want to say one thing I wanted to mention, but but like at the very beginning, and and I talked about like knowing certain French terms or being able to hear the lyrics and and ask my wife for help and all that.
neocharge: Yeah.
neocharge: Yes, please.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um One of the things that I found really, really interesting When Claire Obscure was, i mean, we all thought that the original name of the game was just like Expedition 33, you know? And then in the trailer, and announcement trailer reveal, it was like Claire Obscure, what does that mean?
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And at the time, I remember thinking to myself, boy, that sounds a lot like this artistic, ah I guess it would be a, I don't even know what to talk what to call it. But for people who would know in art, Charles Sciro, that's what it sounded like to me.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And ah for those that don't know, what it means is basically, it literally means light dark.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): We know that Claire Obscura also means light dark. But it's it's I think it's Italian. I'm not sure. chart Yeah, Italian. ah Charles Scurro is Italian. um And that was actually my, like but when the game started, what made me wonder if we were in a painting earlier than was ever hinted because it's the, again, it's all about art and we're talking about art.
neocharge: wow
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But it was again, quite literal. And I just thought that was also amazing that Charles Skiro, yeah I mean, that's what it means. That's a translation. ah The French version of that light dark amazing.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Italian's Charles Giro. And that's, I remember asking my wife when the game finally got here and she was like, Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. And i was like, they're in a fucking painting and like this. is You know, it's just like freaking out.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I just, I wanted to let people know in case they didn't, or if they didn't care enough to look it up because the game does speak for itself.
neocharge: That's crazy. Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But again, another one of those things where like naming conventions are important. You can pick up so much in a world just by, know,
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): paying attention to the terms. And I just thought that was cool.
Leon Lionheartly: Hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I, i didn't want to say that in the beginning of the pod, the spoiler cast, because I like we were working our way through and I didn't want to be like, if you've never played this game, but you know, obviously listening to a spoiler cast, but 10 minutes in, they might change their mind and be like, damn, this game's that good.
neocharge: Right.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'll come back later. So anyway, thank you.
neocharge: Ah. Yeah, that's a that's a good observation. And yeah, the little breadcrumbs and the foreshadowing they give throughout this game, it's incredible storytelling.
neocharge: And it's a lot of show don't tell. And yeah, it's just written beautifully.
OracleCardsAndGames: Mm-hmm.
neocharge: And it's dripping with passion and style. and it in itself is a incredible piece of art. And that's how we, I see video games. That's how a lot of us see video games is art.
neocharge: And they ah really explore that. So, uh, yeah, I think that's, that'll do it for this Claire obscure expedition 33 spoiler cast.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: oh did, uh, did any of you guys have any other closing thoughts on this wonderful, wonderful game that will definitely win game of the year?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Honestly, i just wanted to say, you know, thanks for letting me join in this. Yes, you were kind enough to have me on episode eight. That was very cool. um But this was a privilege to talk about it with other people who very clearly care about it.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I would like to think on the same level that I did, you know, maybe more, maybe slightly less, who knows.
neocharge: Absolutely.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But it was, it's very special. And I do think like years from now, like when I'm on my deathbed, there's going to be a a few things that I think about artistically in my life.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): And I know that this is going to be one of them, ah you know thinking about death and grief and existence and all that stuff.
neocharge: yeah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): um But things that really affect you and a lot of things that affected me as a child, I never thought I would really feel that way again as an adult. And and I think that's part of growing up. And this game was one of those where i was like, damn, at the time, I'm almost 40. And this is like changing or making me feel ah more attuned to things I might feel. You know, like I went upstairs and just gave my wife a big old hug.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I'm like, thank you for not disappearing. And if you were fake, I would probably make the same decision to save you.
neocharge: Hmph. ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know like it it really made me think about stuff like that, which was really cool. So anyway, thank you guys for giving me the platform to at least blather on in my blovial, the words that won't stop.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But I really appreciate it. It was cool. It was a great time.
neocharge: It's great having you on, man. And I've wanted to talk about this game oh with you ah for a while. And i was just texting you and I was like, let's let's talk about it.
neocharge: I was like, we got to have a ah spoiler cast for this. So yeah, thank you for joining.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): was very cool.
neocharge: ah We really appreciate it.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: And thank you, Alex, for joining as well.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, thank you so much. thank
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: um I'm happy that I was actually able to enjoy the game finally.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: like I don't have much time to play single player games.
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: I game mostly with ah my wife. It's a lot of League Legends, unfortunately. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Welcome to the party.
OracleCardsAndGames: But yeah but like yeah, I was finally able to sit down after listening to Bob praise it and praise it and praise And was like, Jesus, if it's this good, there's no way it's this good.
OracleCardsAndGames: So sat down and played it and fell in love.
neocharge: And it's it's this good? Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Honestly, like it, for me, this game felt like the first time I booted up legend Dragoon when I was eight years old.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Hell Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, that was my first RPG fun fact. Uh, and I loved for me, there, there were so many parallels between this game and legend of Dragoon, whether it be the mechanics, like LOD had the addition system.
OracleCardsAndGames: This game has a pseudo version of the addition system.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
OracleCardsAndGames: Um, that I absolutely loved, a really in-depth story. Like if this was a PS1 title, it'd be across four or five discs, just like, you know, the great PS1 RPGs.
neocharge: written Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: um And like, it it's this feels like the the last video game for me that felt like at least was art in its purest form with Shadow of the Colossus. And this kind of like re-hit that for me.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
OracleCardsAndGames: So it gave me everything I loved about RPGs prior, aside from, you know, the fact it's not oblivion. and um And everything I've loved about like art and video games, soundtracks and video games, and just threw it all together in this really confusing and awesome story.
OracleCardsAndGames: And fuck it's, it came out brilliant.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): I do have ah an easy-to-answer question for you real quick, just because you mentioned Legend of Dragoon.
neocharge: yeah Yeah, you would.
OracleCardsAndGames: That's,
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): If you heard tomorrow that Legend of Dragoon was getting a full-on remake, PS5 exclusive, would you finally buy a PS5?
OracleCardsAndGames: Fuck yeah, I would.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah, awesome.
OracleCardsAndGames: yeah
Leon Lionheartly: ah
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Glad to hear it, because I've been clamoring. I was hoping that Bluepoint was working on a Legend of Dragoon.
Leon Lionheartly: Kind
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): But anyway.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, there is actually somebody doing a fan game entirely on UE5 for Legend of Dragoon right now.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Oh my god, give it to me.
OracleCardsAndGames: It started on UE4 and then transferred it over to UE5.
neocharge: Yeah, cool.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sorry to derail, I just needed to know.
neocharge: Very cool.
Leon Lionheartly: kind of like another game we know.
neocharge: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
neocharge: um So just to add on that concept, i i ah invoking that feeling again of that game that holds a true place in your heart.
neocharge: And I was like, is is nostalgia kind of the blinding factor here? Is anything ever going to go in the upper echelon of Final Fantasy VII, Assassin's Creed, Black Flag, Legend of Zelda?
neocharge: is anything ever going to go up there in this day and age? Or was was that time over? And experiencing this game, I was like, holy shit, it's happening again.
neocharge: This is amazing. And this is incredible.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: It didn't top Final Fantasy VII because that just, man, it i don't I don't think anything ever will. But this got the closest that I thought anything ever could.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yep, for sure.
neocharge: And I was so concerned in in ah you know my adulthood.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Yeah.
neocharge: am i Am I ever going to feel the way I felt playing Final Fantasy VII again? And it it hit it.
Leon Lionheartly: ah
neocharge: It hit it. So that's a really good point.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: ah
OracleCardsAndGames: I will say this game has slowly started to eclipse Dragon Age for me.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): yeah
neocharge: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: like Once I have more time to process it, go through it, go through New Game Plus, like I think it very much will. um It's not going to dethrone Oblivion or Legend of Fagoon. That's never going to happen. but um Yeah, it's it's up there now.
neocharge: Awesome.
Leon Lionheartly: i I'll give you this one, Alex. All right. So this is going to be my, this actually for you got all of you is don't say never. Okay. Um, in the realm of RPGs, I think at where I'm at in my life as a father, as a married man, as a middle-aged, uh, gentleman, I think this tops the RPG list.
OracleCardsAndGames: Thank you.
Leon Lionheartly: It doesn't top the art, uh, video game list. Um, um Simply because I think there are some ah things fundamentally about it from a video game design perspective that need improvement, um which which we've we've talked about, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Sure.
Leon Lionheartly: But from an r RPG perspective and the ability to leverage it. I felt for Gustav. I felt for Verso. I felt for Renoir by the end of it. um
neocharge: Mm-hmm.
Leon Lionheartly: by the end of If I can go through that entire emotional cycle, I'm sorry. You're going to end up at the top of the list at the RPG realm. Now, as for video games, that's a different conversation.
Leon Lionheartly: um I will say this is my final closing thoughts. um Once in a while, there comes along a game that makes you think about it for weeks on end. that makes you theorize, that calls to you, that makes you go, whenever you play another game, you go, this is a fun game, but this isn't XYZ.
Leon Lionheartly: um I think of things like Metal Gear Solid, ah the original. I think about things like Bioshock, um Mass Effect, things of those games. I think, in my opinion, Claire Obscure...
Leon Lionheartly: is that that level is that level. And it wasn't until very, very recently, and you and i i talked offline, Matt and Caleb, that i any other game that I played, it just didn't taste the same.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you
Leon Lionheartly: It didn't feel the same. um
neocharge: Thank you.
Leon Lionheartly: Until today, yeah, today, when I finally picked up another game, and we'll catch it on the next episode of Shapes, where I was like, holy shit, now I remember what game what makes games fun, right?
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): but
Leon Lionheartly: Claire Obscure absolutely is so good, it makes everything else taste like pond water.
neocharge: Yeah, I followed it up with Doom the Dark Ages, and it kind of hurt Doom a little bit for me, just because, yeah, it was a...
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah, I still need to finish Doom because of Claire. I don't know if I'm going to get to it now at this point.
neocharge: Ah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): It's a bummer because you don't want to take away from the other good games.
neocharge: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): you know like That's my problem.
neocharge: Right.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): i I didn't want to play anything else for a while because I was like, that's not right. right it's not what it's about so i played a bunch of comfort things that i've already played because i was like this is fine i can get through this and then death stranding 2 will be the next one that's like for real uh which is super exciting by the way but yeah you know claire was like that good that it was just like man i know i'm not gonna do the next game next game service if i start it right away like that's just not fair so i didn't i weighed
neocharge: Oh,
neocharge: oh yeah.
Leon Lionheartly: Yeah.
OracleCardsAndGames: Yeah.
neocharge: Yeah, what a beautiful, wonderful game. And I'm so glad to exist in this time of being able to experience it. So what ah what a wonderful experience.
neocharge: Incredible. So ah yeah, that's our deep, long thoughts on Claire Obscure Expedition 33. We talked about it for almost five hours. We're all very passionate about it. It's all of our game of the years.
neocharge: ah So what do you guys think of it? We want to hear from you. ah If you played it, we want to hear your thoughts. And the best way to do that is on Discord.
neocharge: If you're already part of the community, thank you so much for being part of the community. ah But if you're not, where where can they ah find out how to be part of our awesome community, Bob?
Leon Lionheartly: Oh, man, you're going to put me on the spot. it's sit's ah It's a long night. But anyways, you go to link, L-I-N-K-T-R dot E-E backslash shapes of gaming.
neocharge: Yep.
Leon Lionheartly: That's a link tree. So L-I-N-K-T-R dot E-E backslash shapes of gaming. There you'll find all of the links to all of the podcasts as well as the link to join our Discord server um and come along and be part of the community.
neocharge: Awesome. We have a really cool community there. we're We're always talking about games and we love talking about games ah clearly for hours and 43 minutes into this podcast. So again, ah thank you so much for listening. If you listen to this whole thing, you are a dedicated listener and you love Claire Obscure Expedition 33 as much as we did.
neocharge: So yeah, Yeah. And thank you all. Thank you guys for, for being on here.
Leon Lionheartly: Thank you.
neocharge: And, uh, thank you to our guests, Caleb and Alex. We really enjoyed your presence on the spoiler cast.
Caleb (AdmiralMerps): Hell yeah.
neocharge: And, uh, yeah, with that, uh, we, uh, we continue and for those who come after.
