Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to the Policy Viz Podcast. I'm your host, Jon Schwabisch. On this week's episode of the show, I am happy to be joined by Taifa Smith Butler, the president of Demos, which is a nonprofit public policy organization. They are working to build a just, inclusive, and multiracial democracy and economy.
Speaker: They are doing some really interesting things with research and analysis and of course, data visualization and data communication. which is why I was so interested in talking to Taifa. And of course, her work intersects a lot with my forthcoming book, Thoughtful Data, that I've co-authored with Alice Fang. And so what you're gonna hear in this week's conversation with Taifa is how they think about approaching data and how they work with their partner organizations across the country. And also how they kind of manage those relationships and build in a feedback loop with those partners not just at the end of a project. And I think this is a thing that a lot of us, whether you're working in a research organization or you're just in the data or data visualization space, we kind of forget, right? We kind of do our work or we find a question or we identify a question. We do the work, we publish the thing, the report, the dashboard, wherever it is.
Speaker: And then we sort of engage with our target audiences. And what Demos is doing, and I think they're doing extraordinarily well, is that they are engaging with their partners, their collaborators, their target audiences throughout that entire process. And so what you're going to hear is a number of different examples that Taifa and her staff are working on where they're working with a group in Tennessee, for example, on a particular challenge. And then that serves as the model to go to other states, but then the model changes, right? because the challenges in other states are slightly different. And so the survey questions they ask are different. The products that they produce are different. And what I found maybe most interesting from a ah data and data visualization perspective is at the end of this conversation where she talks about their power scorecard, and this was in 2024, so not that long ago. So I think, you know, all combines into our current media environment. They created this really cool interactive website where you could
Speaker: you know, you could select your different areas and select your different metrics. And then you could also get a PDF report, just a four page PDF report. And that didn't really meet the needs of their partners and the folks, the advocates on the ground doing the work. And so they,
Speaker: rethought what they were sort of putting together for their partners. So it's a really interesting conversation about how we get information into the hands of the people who can use it. I think you're really going to enjoy it, especially if you're working in a nonprofit or an advocacy role, or you are engaging in and policy or politics. This is really the conversation for you. So let me turn it over to my conversation with Taifa Smith Butler from Demos here this week only on the PolicyViz podcast.
Speaker: Taifa, how are you? Great to meet you. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me, John. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm very excited. We've got a lot to talk about. We've got mission stuff to talk about. We've got data communication stuff to talk about. We might even talk about the medals that sit behind you. ah So you can like, you know, show off a little bit. So why don't we start maybe, you know, simply just with like introductions, like who are you and what is Demos and what do you all do there?
Speaker: Thank you. um It's so cool to be on here because I, for so many years, I started my career as a data analyst working in the private sector. And from all the years, 30 plus years of doing my career, I've always been connected to data research policy. And so to be on your show to talk about the importance of data and how it informs our policymaking and grassroots movements and all that stuff is just crazy cool. Oh, great. But yes, so I am president of Demos and we are a national think tank or research public policy organization, all the things. um And our primary goal for the last 25 years has been to build a just, inclusive, multiracial democracy.
Speaker: And so we worked at the intersection of economic justice, democracy reform, and racial justice. And one one of the most critical things for me as the leader, I've been here for five years, was on the board for four. So I've been really connected to Demos for a number of years now, and just the recognition that you know, this economy isn't working for everyone. It's especially not working for Black and brown people when we think about the economic exclusion that we have experienced throughout our history as a country. And so our goal is to really
Speaker: build economic and political power for those that have been on the margins. And if we can build economic power where people, Black and brown people especially, can have more agency and control over our economy and our democracy, we know that we'll live into a real multiracial democracy. but So that's been our work. And of course, using policy and research to build knowledge and knowledge is power. So that is part of our work.
Speaker: I love it. um Can you tell me a little bit about the folks that you work with? Because no one sort of does this on their own island. And before we get into the data part and the data viz part, which is obviously what we'll spend a lot of time talking about but who are the groups, the advocates, the type of people that you're all, in addition, obviously, to policymakers, but like, who are you all trying to communicate your work to?
Speaker: Yeah, I would say our primary partners or target audience, if you will, are grassroots leaders at the state and local level. ah We know that, you know, as I have been in this policy arena for most of my career, that in order to get policy change for the material conditions for people to change, you need political will and you need public will. And part of the work to inform the public And particularly those grassroots leaders who are advocating in their community for better conditions, for better policies, they're helping to inform the people, whether it's on the doors or in their community town halls or taking research and reports and data up to their state houses and saying, why aren't you doing this? You know, that has been our primary audience and in the audience that I've worked with over two decades now.
Speaker: Yeah, it is interesting to hear you focus on the state and the local folks, because I think a lot of people that I talk to, you know obviously i'm in I'm in DC, a lot of people that I talk to focus on, oh, let's talk to someone on the Hill, let's talk to a Senator. And I find more often than not, like that's the wrong audience to talk to. you know You're doing housing policy in Houston, like you should be talking to people in Houston. Are most of your folks pretty keen or pretty focused on their state and local folks? Or do you have to like,
Speaker: Guide them into who, you know, who they should be targeting in their own work. Oh, for sure. For sure. It's a both and. and it' And because I did state policy work for two decades, so I'm very familiar with our, you know, the state legislative process, how to get people involved in the state, you know, policymaking.
Speaker: But as a national leader, the recognition is that we have to operate on what are the federal levers that will help inform you like and improve state conditions. And so you have to do a bit of both and to have our target audience be sort of grassroots organizations, local leaders who are doing community based state based advocacy. it's important for them to also know the federal landscape and sort of what federal policies are impacting or you know disproportionately impacting them. So I think we have to make sure they understand the federal context, but also know what those what is happening at the local level. And and for me, one of the linchpins for why making sure
Speaker: people, everyday people understand the issues. Because in my career, going to the state house and talking to state leaders and I present the report, I represent the data and you get the thanks, I i got your report. But you know, i haven't heard from my constituents on this, right? So, you know, then how do we fuel and give the field and the constituents the same information so that they can hold them accountable? So I think that's a really important piece of the public will that can push on the political will so that we can get stuff done.
Speaker: Okay, so I want to come back to that because i want to i want to talk about the data and the and the products you put out. And then I also want to come back to, i think what is really important in 2026 is how you get information to these different stakeholders. Because I think as you just you just said, like it's so easy for people be have your report.
Speaker: find whatever like that's right that world seems to be gone to me and so how do we get this information so um there are a number of things on the demos website that i've looked through and we can talk about other things that you know um we haven't that i haven't haven't looked through there's um i think what's called the indicator series which is kind of a series of blog post style reports and it has kind of like that like big i also love the the the style and branding. like You guys are like really like locked in, which is separate thing, but I love. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I mean, it's just you know like, hey, you know that it's a Demos graph when it's like it's there. So I think that's, and I personally think that's ah important. um And you also have, I mean, i've I'm sure have many reports. I've looked at the affordability report, which I think is one of the more recent ones, which is kind of that more big kind of standard PDF report. and And so I guess this is kind of a two-part question. We can sort of work our way through it. But yeah.
Speaker: What is the data and workflow process like for for you all? um And then we can talk about like, what are your thoughts on like, how do you get this kind of stuff out there into world?
Speaker: Oh, I love that question. I think it's a couple of couple of things. you know For years, Demos has considered ourselves sort of a think tank of the movement. And so part of this to me is if we are living that that the grassroots leaders, you know oh you know, movements that are focused on economic justice or racial justice or even democracy reform, how are we helping to inform their work and how are they helping to inform our research, right? And what research questions we have, what data we're going to explore. and so there's this sort of feedback loop. So one is most important for us is knowing who our audience is and how can we be most relevant in building that knowledge. And to me, data is a tool, right? It's a tool to help do a couple of things, build knowledge, build awareness, build, you know, sort of the muscle around advocacy and awareness for certain issues, and that that data can help inform decisions, whether it's decisions that are campaigns or decisions that are what policies we need to pass or decisions on what investments need to be made to improve the public good, right? So, you know, we've had with that indicator series, our primary goal was how do we help not only inform those consumers of the economic, you know, narrative every month, the jobs report comes out, you know, and so people are talking about the economy and the impact of unemployment, but we wanted to make central the people who get invisibilized in that data, which are black and brown people immigrants and others who, when you look at macro or metadata, their story isn't told in that. that's right And it's not giving a true picture of the economy. So that indicator series was to pull out, hey, hey, you're missing some stuff here when we're not looking at
Speaker: uh the unemployment rate for black women who are bearing the brunt you know particularly in the last couple of years immigrants the the myth that we hear that they're the ones that are having a dragon no no their unemployment is in line with everyone else's right so i think those are the things that we're trying to help even if it's the insiders ah inside the beltway who are you know using these economic narratives but also to help the field understand better and that they see themselves And that somebody is not only bringing them to the center, but pushing back on some narratives that could be disingenuous, right? Or yeah misinforming. yeah right So that's right that's part of that goal of that series. And we figure stylize it in a way that is accessible, that there's one chart, right? That sort of speaks to the issue and we try to make it plain.
Speaker: Yeah. Do you have a regular cadence to them? This is something I always wonder about, like, and, and, you know It's a content game, right? So it's like, but do you have a regular cadence? Do you think that's important to have? Or is it more about, you know we're talking about the monthly jobs report. And so that is obviously a regular cadence, but like kind of like what the conversation is rather than every Monday we have a thing that goes out.
Speaker: Yeah, I think for us, it was more around the conversation. and And we figured the trigger, of course, is the jobs report, because then there's always a squawk box, you know, that are talking about the numbers. yeah But how do we bring a different perspective while that conversation is happening? And our team has been very thoughtful about when to weigh in on the narrative and what to focus on that's getting missed. So I would say, you know, as we look at the economy writ large and think about what the bigger narratives are, If our goal ultimately is that we center those who get left out of the story, we tell their data, like show their data
Speaker: And what I want to be really um underscore here is because, you know, we're doing this data conversation is oftentimes if we don't give context to data, it can also get misinterpreted. Right. And I think, yeah you know, just as we talk about these numbers and these charts and graphs and heat maps, like there are people behind those. Right. yeah So how do we talk about their lived experience? And, know,
Speaker: the impact of systems that influence their lived experience. So I think we have to be like responsible as we use data, set context, tell story, give the systemic, you know, reasons for why these things are happening, and then give the solutions. Because, you know I've been in research for over 20 years and One of the things, John, is we can problematize everything. Like we can explain the problems all day, every day. yeah But I want us to be seen as an organization that's bringing on the solutions as well. Yeah. Everything is deficit-based and we could just oh my god flip it around, right? yes um
Speaker: so ah So on this context piece, I mean, I think it's super important. from that data perspective, how do you bring in that context? How do you make it, you said something that I say all the time, like how do you get people to see themselves in the data? Cause it is so easy to go to the website, grab the job report, put out a few numbers, but how do you do that? Is it about, is it about talking to people and putting quotes in the story? Is it about just making it more relevant to their specific geographic? Like what is it, what does the context look like for for you all when you're thinking about this?
Speaker: I think it's exactly that, ah to take those data and then make them relevant for their situation. And that's typically in a one-on-one environment or in some of our monthly calls with grassroots leaders to sort of distill you know what's happening. I had one leader out of Wisconsin say to me, oh, my goodness, I read your blog and I sent it to our entire community network. She said it was so simple. was so easy to understand. And then we had a conversation about what its relevance was for us in the policy fight that we had. So to me, that's a win. yeah Being able to put the research out there. And again, we all as researchers, we don't want our research to sit on the virtual shelf right and never get looked at. Or our comps team comes back and say, there aren't any hits on the web. How do we make that information plain and accessible and useful? And again, as a relevant tool to what people are doing. And that takes some outreach, right? That takes some communication. Because again, doing the research, getting the data analysis out there, like the researcher, the analyst is like, bet I did my job. And then, you know, comms is like, but nobody looked at it, you know? And so, and to me, John, the ultimate issue is Have people's lives been changed? Has policy made a difference? Right. yeah So to me, we have to connect those dots and do all of that work to get it to the end user that we want that can make the informed decision and ultimately goal is people's lives get better.
Speaker: Yeah. OK, I'm running out of I'm running out of room on my paper here with all the notes I'm taking. so I've got um i've got um a number of questions I want. I want to follow up on on two things here. hmm.
Speaker: So you mentioned the comm team and you mentioned, you know, having an impact on people. And I'm curious from your perspective, um how do you all think about these metrics? I mean, one thing is like, oh, you can say we got 5,000 hits on this blog post or on this website or whatever, but like, you know, you might be better off with five the right five people versus the 5,000. So how do you, from an organizational perspective,
Speaker: measure the, I'm going put in quotes, the success of a blog or a data visualization or data post. And then also how do you measure this impact? And this is a question that, that I've wrestled with, with lots of people's like measuring impact is like, that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker: um But it's rare where it's like, you could see the line from the blog post to, you know, new legislation, like that yeah line was never that direct. So like, Never. Yeah, never. Yeah, never. Exactly. um And so to say something like, oh, my thing did this is like, it's never that clean. So from from your from your position at the head, like, how do you think about and like, what are the types of metrics that you all are encouraging people to look at and to think about? And and then also like how to...
Speaker: how are you actually capturing them if they're on these more like softer, i mean, softer is the quality, I'll say qualitative, right? Like, and i hear you I mean, you know, the conversation with the Wisconsin person who shared it, like that is in my mind, that's a win. That's an impact. but Like, how do you record that for your, for your board? Right. I mean, I'm sure as a board member, you had all this stuff. So like, yeah. What does that, what does that look like for you guys?
Speaker: Yeah, it starts to look really to your point about the qualitative and the anecdotal. And I will say, you know, our comms team has been doing a great job of ah like doing some deep, real talk about our back end website and design. And, you know, are we taking our data and using the best comms tools or communications tools to get that information out. And again, it goes back to like you were asking before, what is our process? To me is what's the end user? What's the ultimate goal?
Speaker: Is it just to inform? you know Is it just to build knowledge or is it to help shape a conversation that is being had? And so all of those things play out into like what the final product is. And I think for me is success looks like it might not necessarily be hits, you know, based on SEO. And and let's, be let's real talk, given how the algorithms work today and given yeah the organ, like our stuff might like not even get seen, right. Or it might be in a bubble, right. So, so those metrics of old, like we can't use those anymore. So to me is how do we ensure that we got to the people we care about? And to me,
Speaker: When I hear a grassroots leader say, I just read your blog about taxes. Hey, can you, can we write an op-ed together? Because this is exactly what we're dealing with in our state.
Speaker: John, you know, that's, that's gold. That's win, yeah right? yeah And so if the right people are reading it, if it's helping to inform decisions, if it's getting people to feel empowered to go have a conversation or to write their own thing,
Speaker: To me, that is success. And it might not be 100 people, you know, red or whatever the things that are used today. um that that's That's the thing that it fills me up.
Speaker: And then yeah for me to go back to our team and say, the work you're doing is making a difference. And I'll give you another example if that's okay. Yeah, yeah. We did, we were invited by state of Tennessee to do a missing voters report.
Speaker: And this report was like, hey, we know that there's a lot of structural problems with our voting system, and we really want to see who is not participating in voting. And so we did this analysis for them. They used it. They had their own sort of democracy summit using that information, sharing it with all their grassroots folks to help inform, again, how they were going to address getting people to show up, getting people to turn out. but also advocate for better voting rules.
Speaker: We had another state say, hey, hook me up. du We want one. you know and so we ended up doing one for North Carolina, one for Alabama. We're doing one for Georgia now. So to me, to see people see that data, see that analysis, see the solutions or or what we've offered, and then say, hey, help us with our analysis. And most recently, we just finished the Alabama report all of them look a little bit different or their data question was different. So yeah some of the states were really focused on re-enfranchisement for returning citizens and what barriers they had. So we broke down those numbers. And then in ah Alabama, that was one of the most successful, most recently that they said that really helped them be able to advocate, especially in a post-Calais world, right? Where there's much more voter suppression, Right. um that people now have to figure out what are the different tactics and strategies that we're going to have to put in place. And again, those data are tools that help them ah make better that right choices. and And in those kinds of projects, are you or is the or the or the partner organization, are they are you or they collecting new data or is it all are these data that are already existing that you're analyzing?
Speaker: We are collecting existing data. So a lot of times it's looking at the voter or access file, you know, the van yeah um or looking at census data. We can talk about the challenges associated with now some of the federal data sources that have been removed or may no longer be available or not. um providing all the information and how that will really stymie our ability to tell the story in the future or even do longitudinal or ah you know, kinds of analysis.
Speaker: yeah so So there's that. But I think also encouraging communities, and I've had this question come, well, if we can't trust, you know, our federal data sources, how do we collect our own data?
Speaker: And we know that that's a very tall task. It's, it needs a lot of funding and support. And I know there are foundations and philanthropy is thinking about how do we help community collect their own data through survey tools, you know, focus groups, interviews. So there are a number of ways that I think people can, can't collect and assess their own communities, but to be able to do that at scale and comparisons, those are the things that get a little challenging when you don't have federal resources to do that kind of standard data collection.
Speaker: Yeah. So maybe we could stay here for, for a moment. Cause I think this is like, From the data world, this is maybe the question, right? So if the federal data ecosystem and agencies are clearly under attack, they've been defunded, people are being fired, data's being taken down, removed, masked, and so on.
Speaker: What have you found? I mean, I think you're, I mean, obviously the money is ah is is a problem, um but what are you hearing though? I work with a couple of groups in California on the public health side and you know, the things they're saying the same thing, right? if If people no longer trust what the CDC is putting out,
Speaker: and I'll just say fairly or unfairly, fine, but if they don't trust it and they're not going to use it, um but we need those data to get out there. Now it's our job as public health organizations, in this case, California, but can be any state, you know, how do they,
Speaker: collect this data and how do they put out? So what are you hearing from from your networks about how people are responding to these these threats to the federal data ecosystem? Oh, people are very concerned. um yeah It's just significantly, I mean, sort of shaken.
Speaker: I had a conversation with a funder who does big data analysis, but, you know, nationally around kids and their wellbeing. And they're like, our whole report is based on census data. And as soon as you call the question of, we're not gonna ask these questions, we're not gonna collect data on race, you know, or ethnicity, there is a problem to be able to tell the truth about you know Again, the people we care about. and you know for i know we're not here to talk politics or anything, but when you make invisible people who are being harmed by policies, by you know lack of investment, that's dangerous yeah um for the work that we're trying to do to to create
Speaker: a more equitable world, to create a more just world, and to take responsibility for the government's role to do the public good, right? You know, ah investing in our infrastructure around education and healthcare and roads, bridges, energy, all the things. And without accurate data, that shows, you know, do all the subcategories of analysis that we need to do. um It's malfeasance, right? Of like what the government's role and responsibility is. And so what does that mean for us who try to make central, you know, those who are being harmed? It's going to make our jobs much more difficult.
Speaker: um And, and, you know i just think about the census question ah when it when it will ultimately impact the amount of funding and appropriations to communities. i mean, John, it has a ripple effect and it will for decades if we don't fix So you know for the communities who say, we'll just do our own surveys, for the health health folks out there, there there is no private level of investment that can match with the, you know, with the government and the federal government should and can do. And so I just really think all of us are either going to have to advocate
Speaker: for the federal government to not do what it's planning to do um or, or i don't know, figure it out. But ah that's that's the big question. I don't have that. wish I had the answer. No, I wish you did too. It would make a great solution. Yeah. yeah um ah um The other thing I wanted to go back ah for a moment, you mentioned earlier this kind of feedback loop that you all are engaged in with your with your partners. And I'm...
Speaker: um I'm about how you build those relationships because a lot of people I talk to, it is your kind of standard. We get data from whatever resource or or site or whatever. We do the analysis and we put it out.
Speaker: and And the feedback loop is, oh, we got your report, thanks a lot. But it sounds to me like you are having more conversations before and during, and then obviously after the report comes out. And I'm curious about how you've built that as part of the process of, it sounds like, your entire organization.
Speaker: Yeah, that is. And I'll preface this because I think a lot of places just don't do that, that they just it's it's kind of a one way thing. And if someone if the Wisconsin person reaches back out to them, that's kind of like shocking and amazing, as opposed to kind of what it sounds like you all are doing. It's kind of like building it as a part of the work and sort of an ah expectation of what you want to have happen with the work? Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is such a great point and question. And I will say that is hard because I, you know, as a think tank leader working at the national level, You know, think tanks typically, to your point, are very top down.
Speaker: You know, we have the idea, we have the research we want to do, we do it and we say, this is going to be helpful for the field. And then we put it out there with yeah with no kind of end user in mind. It was just like, oh, this is our, yeah, this is our solution. So I think because we've spent decades, like building deep relationships with with our grassroots partners. And we had a whole project or called the Inclusive Democracy Project for a decade. We're in this sort of second decade of it now. But it was, how do we work closely with these organizations and states who care about the economy, who care about racial justice, who care about having a better, more open ah democracy? How do we actually get them to work more explicitly on democracy? Because it' it it's an...
Speaker: a critical piece of us being able to build the kind of power that we need for people, especially in a democracy now where the very wealthy few and are controlling right everything.
Speaker: And so we try to stop and think about you know what the end goal is. If it's about building power, and we know grassroots organizations, power building groups are doing that every day, what's the research and information that they need to fuel their work?
Speaker: So how do we stop and have conversations with our grassroots partners? What's the kind of data that will be helping form you, your work? um What kind of analysis that that would be helpful for you to actually win in your community, you know, the things that you're fighting for? And and there's, ah I think, a healthy tension that happens. Our team has really built that in, know, going out, talking to our partners because they want their research to be informed. But at the same time, I don't want this to be so extractive that we keep asking the field, you know, what they want or what we help us do our work yeah as opposed to us saying, you know, what can we do to help your work?
Speaker: Right. So so we have been. very thoughtful in how we do that and because the field is so busy i also don't want to take away their time to say we can't do anything without talking to the field right so i think there's a both and how do we use our thought leadership how do we compete in this marketplace of ideas when we do believe like there is an intervention to this problem and we're going to investigate it we're going to research it but we also build in that time to say hey does this make sense right Does this does this compute for your community? And to actually help refine those processes or that information with the field. So so I think that is a a give and take that has been really helpful for us. And what I have appreciated is When our grassroots partners or folks from the community or even our other policy, national policy homies, if you will say, hey, y'all that was that was a great piece like or that was a great approach, you know, so to get those kind of validation, that validation from folks helps us know that we're doing it right.
Speaker: Yeah. Do you find, um you mentioned the Tennessee, Alabama example earlier, but I'm curious, do you find in a lot of your work that you're working with a group in one state and you think that that will sort of be the template for a work in another state, but then you're working with the group in another state or area and and they're like, no, no, no, no. We'd like, this is not what we need. We need to either a small pivot or a big pivot. Does that happen a lot?
Speaker: I think so. And I think because we always go in asking the questions first, we don't get caught in a cookie cutter. Well, we did this here. This should work here. yeah It's always open open questions, open. What do you need? How do we, you know, like customize to a point? And then there are ideas that we've had, because I think, you know, if you look at the progressive ecosystem writ large, you know, there's a a value that we hold that we can't,
Speaker: go into places with a cookie cutter approach. Like we have to see each context differently and we have to approach it much like you know other our like other ways that think tanks move ah on the other side of the political ideological spectrum. yeah You see me talking diplomatically, right? so I did. I did get that. that's why you're president. I get it. yeah I get it. you But you know what, John, I'll give you another example to your point about have we gone someplace and done something that maybe didn't work. So to your point about data visualization and sort of data tools, one of the other things, because we've been on this journey around power, we did a power scorecard back in late 2024. And this was based on some research and analysis that I thought would be really helpful for the field. So we sort of wanted to test this question of whether or not people had agency and control over the economy and our democracy.
Speaker: So we worked with an incredible data shot camera collective And we did this analysis where we're like, okay, well, can we look at indicators of the economy and indicators of the democracy and and sort of create a methodology and like assess whether or not we can answer this question? And so we we looked at 30 indicators of the economy and 30 indicators, which we call sociopolitical, which were like around voting rights and like yeah democratic kinds of things. And we we ranked all the states and we thought this is going to be a fabulous tool. It's still on our website. It's interactive. You can pick your state. You can compare it to three other states. You could print your state fact sheet. You know, that's four pages that breaks all the 60 indicators down. We explain the methodology and the Braille curve and the standard deviation. Like we do all the things, right? It is a yeah, it's an incredible piece of work. And I thought, oh, this would help the field in terms of how we think about, you know, where we focus our attention on what states based on the ranking and and looking at those data around whether or not people can 42% of people can't meet their weekly expenses and you know have what's the turnout rate and all those kinds of things could help us figure out.
Speaker: the interventions. And when we rolled that thing out, oh, and the other one was, oh, the audience of funders, they could use this tool to you know em invest yeah in certain regions and states because we see either there's opportunity to improve the context or there's challenges that we need to invest deeply.
Speaker: All that to say is beautiful. But when we took it out to communities, they're like, wanted something more simple. They wanted something that, you know, they could take their to to their legislators in their states that was, again, less complex and just hit on maybe more specific things. So again, in our grandiose ideas of like this interactive data tool, I had this big research question. And the secondary question was, you know, where the majority of black and brown people live, do they have political power? And then when you get to these 60 indicators and look at when they're collected, is are is the data, are the data disaggregated by race and ethnicity so that you can do that deeper analysis? And out of the 60, only 15 were disaggregated. So it starts to create challenges for you to tell the story. And then when you have the federal government say we're not collecting this anymore, what that data set disappears, the question becomes, can we continue to invest in this tool? to make the case, right? So I think all those things come into play when you have these grandiose ideas about doing these incredible data viz kind of projects. But then when you take it to the field, they're like, a actually.
Speaker: So um but that that is a really interesting story because it seems to me that you you actually had the pieces that I would think about. You have the interactivity for the people who you know want to do that, but then you have the the sort of PDF, short, four-page PDF takeaway. So think did they express to the groups talking did they express like what did they want like was four pages too long did they just want like do they want to set up bullet points like what what was the thing that they were looking for that they thought would be the most like useful for them
Speaker: Yeah, I think it was one single issue kinds of analysis ah um and ah like focus on a particular thing. I think our analysis around like, you know, do we have power and here are the indicators that influence it. When we work with people's action on the affordability report that you mentioned, we went into that report. That's a PDF that was wanting to speak to the moment of the economic pain that people were feeling We wanted to make sense of it for them. So talking about energy and food and housing and care, like to be able to show those data and what people needed to understand, like that was a better tool.
Speaker: It's a PDF, but it also tells the story of the economic development. hardship that everyday ah folks are are experiencing. And then it helps them figure out how to connect that narrative and that story and and not be gaslit by other economic narratives that everything is copacetic, right? That no, let's put this housing data in front of you. Let's put this energy, how much people are paying in energy out of their budgets, right? So it really makes plain what people are living under and then that that they can help then
Speaker: counter those false narratives, especially when they're being told all is good. So to me, hearing, seeing, like comparing this sophisticated thing that we thought was like, ooh, and then I'm like, no, no, we just want the, just the facts, ma'am. but yeah yeah but Yeah, it's really So what I'm i'm hearing from you, so this is this is what I've written down that I'm hearing from you. I'm hearing a strategy, and and correct me, because i might I might be wrong on this.
Speaker: yeah um So I've written down sort of four things out of this conversation ah when you all think about these sorts of products. You're trying to meet the moment, whatever the conversation is, and and it might differ from location to location. um You're trying to tell stories to connect the the maybe the quantitative data to people's actual experience. um You're being honest about the data and about the challenges, which is to this, like, not everything is great for everybody. Like,
Speaker: Humanity is complex. The economy is complex. And then the other part is you're doing the deep work, um but then trying to communicate that in a plain language, straightforward sort of way. But but there is a depth sort of behind it. So I can imagine this tool that you've been describing,
Speaker: not doing the four page that sort of covers everything, but a one pager that really like fine tunes into specific issues for specific localities, which instead of having like 54 page PDFs, you now have countless one page PDFs. So I understand the the challenge there, but does that sound, am I on am i on track?
Speaker: I think you're on track. I do think to your point though, there is a value of the 50 page PDF. you know, as a think tank, I got to show my work, right? I have to have receipts. And so I think to have those seminal reports that are really giving you historical with the 10 pages of end notes, right? With all the resources connected, that that is important for um credibility.
Speaker: yeah ah So you have that anchor on the website, but then you have, as our comms team is working with our program team, You know, what are the one pagers? and And when I did policy work at the local level, it was what's the palm card that can be a handout when people go to their community meetings? How can you take this factoid about the budget and and that the government is spending so much money in foregoing taxes or this tax break tax break? was this, how do you take that to the town hall and pass that out so people walk away with, this is unacceptable, you know? like So I think again, the 50 pager archived on the web as a seminal piece of research and analysis, but then what are the supplemental pieces that help make it more accessible and can give it more traction? And to me, We don't do a good enough job by just publishing the report and calling it good. We call it day.
Speaker: What is the outreach and communication strategy to keep that heartbeat going, right? Or that drumbeat going, I should say, so that that people can continue to learn and understand the issue. And to me, yeah that's part of the strategy that we oftentimes miss as research shops. We think the job is publishing it, putting it on the website, and maybe creating the the hard copy, right? Getting it desktoped and designed so that you can actually people can have a a physical report. But this day and age, we're like, you know that's costly. The PDF on the web is good enough. Let them print which pages they want. you know But again...
Speaker: It is what are the tools that to me, John, will build knowledge, which is power for our grassroots folks. And at the end of the day, you know, our work as Demos, Demos being the people, how do we engage them in these policy conversations that they often get left out?
Speaker: How do we help them understand the policy discourse when it is so opaque? And we know that oftentimes the sausage is made in the room where it happens, right? And so how do we make accessible those things to everyday folks who aren't influencing those decisions? And so that's like our impetus and goal.
Speaker: Yeah. Tifa, I could talk to you all day. i mean, I could just, I've got like a whole list of questions, but um i'm gonna I'm gonna let you go. Cause I'm sure you've got other things to do than talk to me about data and data viz. I really appreciate you coming on the show. this has been a fabulous conversation.
Speaker: um Before I do let you go, what should people do to learn more about demos to get more of your content information and also for those who are those um grassroots advocate groups that are like, oh, I could see myself working with this person like where should they go.
Speaker: they should go to demos.org. We are have a website and we also are on all the socials, Instagram, demos underscore, or don't give me the line, demos. As soon as they put that in, they should find us. yeah yeah yu And I think to your other point, we have, we just released our power policies, which is a policy agenda that really centers how do we take the opportunity to focus on the populist moment that we're in. And so we offer some populist policies, but also some structural ones. And we're, to your point, trying to not only take that report and agenda, but make it accessible. So we're going to be doing a video series. So we launched our first video, which is me talking about the the agenda. And then we'll have a series. So people can go to our website or go to our socials at demos.org and just follow us.
Speaker: but Thank you, Tifa. Really appreciate it. Thank you, John. Take care, of my friend. You too.
Speaker: Thanks for tuning in everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I hope you will check out the demos.org website. They are on all the socials as well. If you want to check them out, I would be remiss if I also didn't remind you that my book thoughtful data is coming out at the end of this year. So head on over to Amazon or Goodreads or wherever you get your books. You can also go to Columbia University Press, which is the publisher to pre-order your copy of the book right now. And I'll just, while I'm here asking for stuff, let me ask for one more thing. If you would please rate or review the show wherever you get your podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, subscribe on YouTube. I would really appreciate it. It does help me find guests and bring them onto the show to give you this content each and every podcast.
Speaker: week right now, and every week, going on a weekly basis for a little bit. And by the way, hope you're enjoying those My Favorite Graph segments. um So, okay, that's enough. That's all I've got. i hope you have a great one. Talk to you soon. Until next time, this has been the PolicyViz Podcast.
Speaker: Thanks so much for listening.
