Transcript
Karen Seinor: Hi everyone, i have Ashley here and today Ashley is actually an amazing healer. Many of you in the Aubrey-Wodonga area where I live will be familiar with Ashley's work but today we get to get inside his head and his heart and hear about shamanism and Ash's sort of take on that so welcome Ashley.
Ash: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Karen Seinor: oh so It's actually real pleasure. And there's a few people I have um mentioned I'm going to interview you and they've gone, well, I'll definitely listen. So we're obviously going to get some hits on this conversation.
Karen Seinor: So, Ash, I mean, you and I were speaking sort of before we went live and I know that you have a particular um view on shamanism, what it is and what it isn't. And, of course, that's my very first question.
Karen Seinor: What is shamanism from your perspective?
Ash: um That's a really interesting question. So in my opinion, there's two very differing branches of shamanism. There's your traditional shamanism, which is what we would call dinky-die shamans and actual proper shamans who have been trained, who have been initiated and who have gone through at a minimum 10 to 15-year process of being able to eventually call themselves a shaman.
Ash: And then you've got a very, what some people call shamanism light, which is core shamanism. So it's a very watered down traditional, very watered down version of traditional shamanism.
Karen Seinor: Thank you.
Ash: And that was brought to Western culture by the name by a gentleman by the name of Michael Harner. And he took out all the tribal aspects of the shamanism and created ah very westernized version of it.
Ash: So it's very watered down, very different to to to traditional shamanism. And it's probably what a lot of Western people who call themselves shamans who aren't actually shamans actually do.
Ash: So, yeah. And look, i I have a bit of bee in my bonnet about it because ah it's there's so many people out there who call themselves shamans and it's a very sexy word and it invokes all these different connotations and every man and his dog and woman, excuse me, is out there saying, I'm a shaman, I'm doing this, I'm doing that.
Ash: And in the reality, they have no real idea of what it actually means and actually takes to become a shaman. yeah
Karen Seinor: Wow. So I can really get the sense that this is close to your heart.
Ash: Oh, absolutely. Look, one of my original mentors, he said to me when we came on Vision Quest, you're shaman. And look, this is going back far out, nearly eight years ago.
Ash: and you know, this that invoked within myself all these fanciful ideas and and whatnot. And then fast forward, you know, six, seven years and I found out what it actually meant and what it actually was.
Ash: And there was a part of me that was a little bit heartbroken and a little bit pissed off about it. um And I had to take a bit of a step back or took a huge step back and had to reevaluate what I was doing and how I was doing it and then started to actually learn um the differences between traditional and core shamanism and eventually came to the realisation that I was probably more of an animist than a a shaman in any sense of the word.
Karen Seinor: Okay.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: So what is an animist then?
Ash: So as an animist, I believe that there's an inherent undercurrent of energy that connects us to everything. So we're innately connected to the land, to spirit.
Ash: um We believe that Whether you're human, animal, nature, and everything has a soul and and we can connect in with it. And it's who we are at our core.
Ash: Everybody on this planet ineffectively could but consider themselves an animist. And again, as I said, it's who we are at our core.
Karen Seinor: Yes.
Ash: We're just so far removed from that now and so far removed from our innate connection to the earth and to nature and to life. listening and watching the natural cycles that are around us. And I think that's, for me, what an animist is or who what I try to do is connect into nature and watch the signs. And, um you know, there might be times where, example, a specific animal will come and for whatever reason that animal will cross my path.
Ash: And, you know, there's a reason why that animal's crossed your path and there's a message behind it. And sometimes it's just shutting this thing up here enough to be able to listen. um In saying that, look, I do practice core shamanic techniques.
Ash: um I have been trained in core shamanic techniques. And in my one-on-one healing work and probably my ceremonial events that I do, i do incorporate some of those core shamanic techniques as well too.
Karen Seinor: I'm just writing that down so I don't forget to ask you about that. So it's interesting as you were speaking, I thought, ooh, maybe I'm an animist.
Karen Seinor: And then you said that um fundamentally we are
Ash: Yeah, it's it's the underpinning of everything. It's the underpinning of religion. Animism became, before shamanism even was a thing, um a lot of people say that shamanism is the start of religion and things like that, but it's actually not.
Ash: um Animism goes way, way back our to who we were when we were first incarnated on this planet. And, yeah, as I said, it's just that innate connection to everything around us and the fact that we can connect in with the spirit of certain plants, animals.
Ash: My drum, for example, has its own spirit. You know, my healing tools have their own spirit and you can connect in with them and talk to them. and it's how you build that connection and start to bring that into the work that you do.
Ash: So, yeah, going off on a bit of a tangent there.
Karen Seinor: Wow well I mean that's the beauty of having a conversation isn't it because we can you know ebb and flow wherever we need to just as you were saying that about everything having its own spirit it just brought to mind I'm um reading a book someone's lent me a book called Mary's Message to the World which was channeled back in the early 80s I don't know if you've heard of that I
Ash: No, I haven't.
Karen Seinor: So which obviously it's Mother Mary, completely different universe. But um what she is doing, she's channeling through this message. And I read it yesterday saying that, you know, we need to be giving thanks and having gratitude for everything, thanking this chair for absolutely everything.
Ash: And that's reciprocity. oh You know, like, you don't go, and I'm just gonna use nature as the example, you don't go out into nature and take a stick or a stone without giving something back, you know, and that comes back to that core principle of reciprocity, to take something, you give something back.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah.
Ash: um It's so, so important and again, something we're so far removed from because especially Western culture, I find is very much about take, take, take, and there's no giving back.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: Whereas if I was to go out into nature and I was to purposely look for a stick, for example, for drum beater or a rattle, I'm going to make an offering to the earth to say thank you for the fact that I've been able to pick this stick up and take it home with me.
Ash: Um, in saying that there's also a whole nother level of connection that you need to have, um, in one, are you allowed to take this stick and why are you taking this stick? so I totally resonate with what you just said about thanking the chair or, um,
Ash: whatever it is, you know, again, that word reciprocity comes in so, so strongly and it's so, so important.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah.
Ash: um For example, like when people come and make a drum with me, I get them to go out and make an offering to the earth, to country, because effectively wherever we are in Australia, we're on country and we need to honour the fact that we're on country and I want them to make an offering back to say thank you for being ah able to be there today to make a drum or whatever it is we're doing.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: Again, it's just that reciprocity. So even if it is just acknowledging the fact that we're on, you know, grandmother earth, like she's alive and well and she's a beautiful, amazing being. yeah. 100%.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: Yes, and we are very fortunate she hasn't kicked us off.
Ash: hundred percent
Karen Seinor: and I'm pretty sure she's thinking about I...
Ash: He's definitely thought about it a few times, I think.
Karen Seinor: i i I love that you've mentioned the drum making it it's brought to mind i have a drum and I made it I was in a workshop with you at that time and that process was so beautiful just I remember sitting there and with every knot you know saying a prayer that process just that one thing in on its own took me so deep into a state of peace it's
Ash: Yep.
Karen Seinor: um Yeah, so a little plug for drum making workshops here.
Ash: Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up that workshop up because our drum making has changed so much since that day and it's taken on a whole another level, to a not whole another level, um whereas i hand scrape all my own hides now and we I create Rawhide, which is different to what we used that day in that workshop.
Karen Seinor: Yep.
Ash: Again, you know, with the drum making now, it's about respecting all the different elements that come into the process of that. And like, for example, the animal that's given its life, the tree that's given its life for the wood, for the hoop.
Ash: There's so many elements that come into it that have to be taken into consideration. And it is a beautiful process being able to birth a drum. um Yeah, because you are...
Ash: booing that drug with your own personal medicine too. So, yeah.
Karen Seinor: Yeah, that's pretty cool stuff.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: Okay, so animism, it's it's not a sexy term. I ah feel like I don't really want to call myself that. I don't like the sound of it, but the essence of it is absolutely pure gold. And ah feel like a lot of people from a lot of walks of life would be able to identify with the core concept that you were describing there.
Ash: Absolutely. You look at the really traditional cultures of the world, they just do it on the everyday.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: just such a natural part of their culture and their lives. and um i yeah I love calling myself an animist because it excites me when I use that word because it just...
Ash: I don't it brings in this connection to everything for me. And when I first heard that and started to learn about what that was, it made so much sense because we are so connected to the earth and the animals and everything else as well. And for me personally, it's helped me build a deeper relationship, one with myself, but with everything around me as well too.
Ash: So, yeah.
Karen Seinor: yes
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, when the soul's open, it's everything's there, isn't it?
Ash: Oh, 100%. Sometimes, as I said, it's just getting the brain out of the way and shutting it up.
Karen Seinor: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: So you mentioned core shamanic techniques.
Ash: Yes.
Karen Seinor: Can you, because, you know, I'm thinking trance states, healing practices, you know, bringing spirit into the space, that's they're the pictures that fill my mind.
Ash: Yep.
Karen Seinor: um
Ash: Well that's really interesting because that's more of a traditional shaman shamanic or what traditional shamans do is go into a trance-like state and then they will either travel into the spirit world where they fight, coerce, trick the spirits to then create change in this reality.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: um
Karen Seinor: Mm-hmm.
Ash: The trance aspect is a huge part of that and sometimes the spirit will come in and take over their bodies and will then use their body or their voice to do the healing work that's needed on the person in this reality.
Ash: um yeah so It is a big aspect of it um but it's more of the traditional shamanic sense not the core shamanic sense.
Karen Seinor: Yeah, okay.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: Cool. So the core shamanic techniques that you use in your one-to-one sessions and in your group work, you know, would you feel comfortable talking to us about that?
Ash: yeah
Ash: Yeah, absolutely. ah in my Because I mostly run sound healing and breath work events now, um I don't usually talk about that this side of things.
Ash: If I was going to go and run an animal totem workshop, for example, or a more shamanic-based workshop, this would be talked about quite a lot. So it would help people understand um what to do and what it's about, etc., etc.
Ash: So in the core shamanic world, we recognize there's two states of reality. There's ordinary reality and non-ordinary reality.
Karen Seinor: Thank you.
Ash: And in the core shamanic world, we use a technique called journeying. So we journey into non-ordinary reality to be able to to find answers, to communicate with our spirits, with our animal totems, power animals.
Ash: um And yeah, it's sort of like, as I said, shifting out of this reality into a non-ordinary reality, so to speak. um majority of that for me is taking people down into the lower world.
Ash: So in the shamanic world, there's three worlds. There's the lower world, the middle world and the upper world. um And most of the journey work I do is down to the lower world because that's where my guides are. That's where my animal totems are.
Ash: um The middle world is an energetic world. representation of this physical world that we're in. So you can literally journey to different parts of the world and do healing work and things like that.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Going up into the upper world, you're going up into where the ascended masters are and things like that. So you can go up there and get teachings and things like that as well.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: That sounds like play.
Ash: So that's the main aspect of core shamanism is recognizing um that there's two realities, non-ordinary and ordinary reality as well, and learning to be able to journey into non-ordinary reality.
Ash: And we use tools like drums and rattles um to be able to do that as well because they've the drum especially is very effective at switching the brain into that, I don't know what state you'd call it.
Ash: um but It just kind of switches the brain off and just initiates this, yeah, journey and takes you over.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Oh,
Karen Seinor: All right. Is that a safe place?
Ash: well that's such a bloody good question. Look,
Karen Seinor: that pops into my mind straight away Yeah.
Ash: look I'll be honest with you. In the right context, yes, it is very safe. But in saying that, you need to know You need to have pretty firm boundaries and you also need to know who what your protection is and you need to have that implemented at at all times.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: um
Karen Seinor: Thank you.
Ash: and This is something again that I think gets very overlooked by a lot of people because again the word shaman is very sexy and people think it's all love and light and you know roses and champagne but it's actually pretty hardcore and Traditional shamans, when you look at them, like they're literally in their armor or what they call armor.
Ash: And they have a robe on. um On this robe, there is so much different stuff. There's mirrors for protection. There's like ropes, which are offerings not offerings but um symbolic to the naggers.
Ash: um They've got a mask on to cover their face for protection so the spirits can't see who they are.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: They've also got tools that have been made specially for them by a shaman blacksmith and that's because when they cross over into the spirit world, they need all this stuff there with them.
Ash: And yeah, it's heavy, heavy work and it's very scary work. And in the traditional sense, if you're playing around with that stuff and you don't know what you're doing, you're going to get your ass kicked pretty pretty hard pretty quickly.
Ash: And to be quite honest, um the same thing can happen in the core shamanic world too as well because if you're not familiar with who you're working with and um you're not journeying to meet a specific person, how do you know what's coming it in is actually genuine?
Ash: And there's obviously ways and things you can figure that out. Like you can have somebody that you can speak to about it or um you know You ask questions of the spirits and things like that.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah.
Ash: But it's not, as I said, all love and light. It's actually very serious work. And to just go, yep, I'm just going to go and do a journey to the lower world and see what comes up. You're really just asking for trouble.
Ash: And it's not just something that you just do just for shits and giggles. It's actually like a... It is a serious thing, yeah, yeah.
Karen Seinor: yeah yeah
Ash: And it is scary and it is something, like as I said, you need to know you need to know yourself first and you need to know your energy and there's so many different aspects to it.
Ash: um We could go on for days about it. um Though, yeah, it's not, as I said, love and light. It's very full on work and, yeah, not something you just jump into because you read about it on the internet or, you know,
Karen Seinor: and Listen to the podcast.
Ash: Joe down the street told you about it.
Karen Seinor: Yeah, um'm I'm glad you've spoken about that that. That's actually very cool. And I guess really that's because of the profound nature of the work.
Karen Seinor: I mean, it's depth work, isn't it? Yeah.
Ash: Oh, 100%.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. I imagine that's why the um apprenticeship, for want of a better term, is so long and the training is so involved, is to deal with all the different challenges that are going to be um presented to journeyer or the students.
Ash: yeah
Ash: Absolutely. And like in the traditional sense, like you're taken to specific spirits and you're initiated into those spirits and then get taught to work with them.
Ash: um I think it's like the, don't quote me on this, but the dark hard shamans or there's someone over in Mongolia, when they first learned to journey, they just learned to journey with a juhak.
Ash: and like they just sit there and play this Jew harp and that's what induces the trance and takes them down. And that's all they're allowed to use for a certain period of time until they become competent in actually journeying properly and then journey into where they need to And again, as I said earlier, like with the 10 to 15 years, there's specific steps that you have to meet before they'll take you into the next initiation.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: And if you don't meet them, they're not going to take you there until you're ready. And this is one thing that really shits me to tears is that people go and do these weekend workshops, come out of these workshops and go, I'm a shaman, I'm a shamanic practitioner. And it's like, you're actually not.
Ash: Like you've just done a weekend workshop and I'm sorry, but go and put some fucking hard yards in and actually do the work and actually learn what it means to um to do this work.
Ash: And if people actually really knew what it took to get to where like the Dinky Dye shamans are, they wouldn't do it.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: They run for the hills so quick because it is actually very scary and very full on, hardcore work.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Absolutely.
Ash: Sorry, I sound like very, um what's the word? Very, yeah, can't think of the word that I'm thinking of right now.
Karen Seinor: Full on hardcore, definite. Yeah.
Ash: but
Karen Seinor: Well, I've got to admit I really, ah ah can really feel that when you're saying it. that And I agree with you 100%. Like, I mean, you know that I'm a a mad tarot lady and I've been doing it a long time.
Karen Seinor: But how many people there are out in the world, they buy a tarot deck and a book and a week later they're a tarot reader.
Ash: I
Karen Seinor: So, you know, it's it's a thing.
Ash: but know. It's the same thing. Like it really is because you you think about the years that you've put into the work that you do and the knowledge that you hold and like you said, you know, someone does a weekend workshop or a week-long course and then all of a sudden they're doing tarot for other people and it's bloody scary.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: It's funny because, I mean, i run some of those courses and I and i know it's absolutely doable to share information and knowledge with people.
Karen Seinor: And you know yourself, Ash, the people that are ready for what you have to share, they do arrive because they're in a place and a lot of what you're sharing, it's it's not necessarily the...
Karen Seinor: um knit one, purl one, knit one, purl one stuff, it's a lot of it's intangible.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: And a lot of the people that come for learning or healing with you when they do, i imagine that a lot of those intangible things are in place. That's why they come to you.
Ash: Absolutely. It does, yeah, look, and that certainly wasn't a gripe at you either, but because I know where your knowledge is and what you bring to that those courses as well.
Ash: It's just more so those people that jump in you know completely blind. um There was an interesting post put up on Facebook a few days ago of a psychic medium who said not every person that does a psychic course is going to go out and then read for other people and it's actually okay.
Ash: The same with doing core shamanic work, for example. you know You might go into it and um realize it's probably not something that you want to do for others.
Karen Seinor: o
Ash: and As a lot of um people who are a lot more knowledgeable than me say that core shamanic work is a really good way for Westerners to dip their toes in and if the spirits want you, they'll come and get you and they'll drag you kicking and screaming.
Ash: You know, so, it exactly right.
Karen Seinor: There is no escape when it's your mission.
Ash: i
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah. Now, I have actually had a couple of um healing sessions with you over the years, and and I know people who just praise you to the wazoo.
Karen Seinor: But for a lot of people who listen to this, they won't know you. um So what actually happens for someone or or and or for you when someone is going to come in for a session, a one-to-one session?
Ash: Oh,
Ash: well that's a really good question. Look, it depends on the person and what they actually need. um
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: A lot of the work I do is energy clearing. That's my role in this lifetime. I know that. And ah um it's a big part of the work I do.
Ash: um If someone comes in and I know, let's say for example, they've had soul loss, I will do a soul retrieval for them. And the soul retrieval for me comes from a very core shamanic perspective.
Karen Seinor: Yep.
Ash: So my work is based on Sandra Ingerman's work and she's a lady over in the States who is very well known core shamanic practitioner.
Karen Seinor: ye
Ash: So for someone needing a soul retrieval, I would do a shamanic journey for them. um I would go down, get taken into one of the three worlds and I find the soul bin.
Ash: I bring it back and I effectively give that back to them. and There's ways that I do that by blowing on their head and blowing on their chest. and Soul Retrieval is about bringing back those lost aspects of ourselves that we've lost through soul loss.
Ash: um It's a very common thing oh and yeah it's a beautiful way of helping someone heal those bits and pieces of themselves and also trying to make them more whole as a person as well too.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: oh yeah Other than that, I use my drum a lot.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: um I use my rattle quite a bit. um I use sound quite a bit as well, obviously because I do sound healing, but
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: Again, um because I, um my belief is that everything is a vibration. So we resonate really well with vibration and it's really effective at getting down to a deep cellular level where we hold on to those blocks and things like that. So yeah, there's so many different aspects to my work. i don't have a set formula for every person because every person is an individual and
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah.
Ash: Realistically, my main thing that I probably do is I book you in you come in, we have a chat, and then we go from there. And look, I will say nine times out of 10, without sounding too full of shit, um i do you can generally pick up what you're going to do with someone before they come in.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: um And I do do a little bit of work before they come in because I do work with plant essences and stuff like that too. so um like I'll sit with my plants and just say who wants to come in today and help do the work.
Ash: And, yeah, and when you read up on what they represent, you can get a pretty good energetic imprint or blueprint, excuse me, of what that person's going to need. And then they come in and they start telling you what's going on and you're like, okay, there it is.
Ash: And, yeah, that's it.
Karen Seinor: come ah if
Ash: So, yeah.
Karen Seinor: Wow. So it's really, um because I know that you trained in a whole bunch of different things, lots of different styles of energy work and um body work as well.
Ash: ye
Karen Seinor: so it's But it's a really personal, individualised treatment when they come, isn't it?
Ash: Absolutely. Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Look, some people just book in because I'm a massage bone therapist, starting to really delve into orthobionomy as well. um And look,
Karen Seinor: What is that? but is that
Ash: ortho-economy is meeting your body where it's at and just giving your body some gentle input and saying, hey, maybe we can do this. And the body just has this beautiful ability of just letting go um If you give it the right stimulus um and has this amazing ability of bringing itself back into balance pretty easily sometimes.
Ash: Sometimes there's a bit of resistance there because of past traumas or experiences in life or accidents and things like that. So, yeah, as I said, we meet the body where it's at and just encourage it to to bring itself back to a more optimal place of balance.
Ash: um And my main, one of my biggest loves is energy work or energy clearings.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: And, yeah, that's one of the biggest things that I love doing because I just love working with energy because and energy is everything. and it tells you everything you need to know about everything. so And energy doesn't lie.
Ash: People can lie, but energy doesn't.
Karen Seinor: Well, that's true. That's very true. Yeah.
Ash: But yeah, it is a very personalized. But again, if you book him for a bow and treatment, and I know you're a bit of a muggle, I'm just going to give you ah bow and treatment.
Ash: I'm not going to try and bring in any of the woo-woo, but there's people that come in who are very open and very receptive and they love all that stuff.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: So that's when the other side of Ash comes out to play.
Karen Seinor: Rums, rattles. Yeah, right.
Ash: That's it.
Karen Seinor: Okay. So okay for my books. All right. So, i mean, one of the things that, you know, because i've I've had to sort of put my mind like shamanism. And I remember years ago, like long time ago, reading a book called The Urban Shaman.
Ash: Yep.
Karen Seinor: You know the book, yeah. Yeah.
Ash: Yeah, I know Serge's work. He's he's amazing.
Karen Seinor: I was really transformed by that and suddenly peeling potatoes became a spiritual experience for me. You know, it sounds hilarious, doesn't it?
Ash: But it's so true though. I totally get what you're saying.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. And then that's where my mind started to go and I was like, my God, absolutely everything I do isn't is an expression of my essence and
Ash: Serge, yeah.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: A lot of just got so much more fun.
Ash: Absolutely. Well, you look at Serge's work, like with the, I'm looking up at my wall because I've got a poster up here with the ten print or the nine principles.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Like originally there's only eight, but my old mentor of mine introduced the ninth one.
Karen Seinor: Oh.
Ash: um And when you look at those principles and unpack them, they're so relevant for everything in life. and Serge's book The Urban Shaman like it was one of the very first books I read um when I started to really delve into shamanism and he's amazing like things like grokking you know you want to understand why someone's giving you the shits or driving you nuts you grok them you know and grokking is a term of so to grok something you become that
Ash: person or for example you can grok a rock. So you can say ah rock, on that heavy croer rock
Karen Seinor: wrong.
Ash: oh you say a rock and you want you can say that that rock is just still, it's part of nature, it's just there and you want to be able to do that yourself. So you literally take on the energetic form of that rock um and you grok it as Serge calls it.
Ash: And the same thing can happen with people. um For example, whether it be somebody you know or someone you met and they're irritating the absolute shit out of you and you don't know why it's irritating you.
Ash: So you start to mimic that person. You start to walk like them. You start to talk like them. You potentially even dress like them. And what that does is it helps you understand why that person is giving you the shits.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: The the um paradox of that though is that you can actually, can't remember what he says in his book now, it's my mind's just gone completely blank, but there is like a paradox to that.
Ash: And I think it's something along the way of you really start to not like that person at all or something. I can't remember what it is, but my mind's gone blank.
Karen Seinor: Yes.
Ash: but
Karen Seinor: it's it's That's amazing. I'd actually forgotten about that. Rocket. Rocket. I'm going to maintain that.
Ash: Grok, yeah. It was interesting when I read it, I actually realized that I was doing it naturally without even thinking about it. And I still do it to this day.
Karen Seinor: Yes.
Ash: um I'll be with somebody or in a workshop or doing something and I'll start doing something. what's that? And then they'll start doing it. I was oh, that's really weird.
Ash: When you become aware of it, it's yeah such a natural thing that we have within us and something that we can do, yeah
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: And it's it's, I mean, in therapy world and in personal development world, you use that concept. It's just named differently and it's effective, you know, mirroring.
Ash: Absolutely.
Karen Seinor: And um if you want to get somewhere, you find somebody who's doing it well.
Ash: Absolutely.
Karen Seinor: you to the flip, and then suddenly you can do it.
Ash: Yep.
Karen Seinor: I remember one of my teachers, he is a really great hypnotist, a mentalist really he is, and he, God, which one of those crazy dudes was it who um taught and created NLP?
Karen Seinor: Two crazy psychiatrists.
Ash: Bonne show.
Karen Seinor: Anyway, his name's gone out of my head. But um he was mirroring that guy. But the guy was in a wheelchair and was in many ways a fairly unpleasant soul. He was just very gifted in this area.
Karen Seinor: So my teacher said, you know, that's the trick. is that you are very specific about what you're going to mirror and what skill set you're going to draw on.
Karen Seinor: You don't want to take on all the crap.
Ash: Oh, absolutely.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Yeah, definitely.
Karen Seinor: So grokking it with specificity.
Ash: I like that. but
Karen Seinor: Now, one of the things, um you know, for, that I've thought about is, you know, as a shaman, there is a real position that a shaman has in a community.
Karen Seinor: And there's a level of respect that comes with that role. Now, I know in... I know that in your work you do hold that space because you are that.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: You are that. um how do you deal with and or what's your opinion on the role of the shaman in the community?
Karen Seinor: I know that's a tricky big squeaky question.
Ash: That is a big question. Look, the role of a Shaman traditionally was there to help people and to actually help the community. was there to help to heal, to um get rid of spirits or entities out of people if they'd been possessed or, ah yeah, as I said, heal people.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: um
Karen Seinor: Mm-hmm.
Ash: It's interesting, you know, with the traditional shamans is that it's not their day job. It's actually, they've got like normal, I'm going to call it muggle jobs where they go off and do other things and Their role as a shaman is actually sort of not in the background. It's their people know that they do that and that's what they do.
Ash: But it's not necessarily this their only role that they actually have. So, yeah, they do have other different roles. and But primarily the role of a shaman is to is to serve and to help people.
Ash: Yeah, it's not their monetary bank.
Karen Seinor: A bit ah like an elder in the church, isn't it?
Ash: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. some It's a very respected role because in the traditional cultures and stuff, they actually understand what it takes to actually get to that point to be able to be able to call yourself that.
Ash: um And it's not something that's taken lightly like it is in Western society and monetized off um crazily, which really grates my bones.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah.
Ash: But, you know, that is what it is.
Karen Seinor: We're seeing that everywhere, though, aren't we? um
Ash: Oh, it's, yeah.
Karen Seinor: Spirituality and those sacred paths are being monetised and marketed to the max.
Ash: Yeah, and it's taking them away from from their roots and it's actually watering them down to such a point that they're not even close to resembling what they originally were.
Ash: And I think as I don't want to call myself an elder in the community because I'm certainly not even close to that, but as someone who's been at it for quite a while, am getting to a point where I'm starting to speak up a little bit more and have a bit more of a voice and be a bit more opinionated because there's just things that are going on that blow me away and it's really quite scary and it's putting people in danger and people are getting hurt.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: you know like i look at um Let's look at plant ceremonies, for example. They're the new thing. you know Everyone wants to go off and do ayahuasca or um sit with plants and things like that.
Ash: But what they don't understand is that the years that it takes to be able to serve that medicine to people and also the other things that go with that and the traditional ceremonies that go with that.
Karen Seinor: Thank you.
Ash: Like, and I'm being really staunch about this, like they should be only taken in traditional ceremonies. Like it's not, same with something like psilocybin and things like that, which people just literally take on the weekend to get high. um You look at the, um,
Ash: ah me down in Mexico and things like that, there's actual dinky dive proper ceremonyial ceremonies where you go in and you sit in ceremony to take the plant.
Ash: Because when you're taking a plant, you know you're communing with the spirit of that plant. And that's what you're actually doing. You're not taking it to to heal yourself and heal. you know, clear out years and years of shit.
Ash: It's really, and it's interesting, I saw a memory a couple of weeks ago saying that the plant doesn't do the work, it just gives you the homework, which is so, so bang on.
Ash: Yeah, it's...
Karen Seinor: Yeah, that's interesting. And of course, because I'm such a basic soul, oh what popped into my head was um this is the difference between sacred sex and a bonk.
Ash: Oh, 100%, yeah. yeah It's so, yeah.
Karen Seinor: i mean, The thing still happens, but the experience is as far away from each other as it can get.
Ash: Oh, 100%.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Yeah, it's, yeah.
Karen Seinor: I love that.
Ash: And it looks social media, I think, plays a big part in it as well. It's like taking it away from that sacredness.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: and there's no there's no foundation, there's no depth, there's no there's nothing behind it except an experience. And if these
Karen Seinor: off the box.
Ash: Yeah, if people actually really dropped in and did the work and sat and, again, that reciprocity comes to mind, you know, that respect, that like giving back.
Ash: um It's not just, yeah, let's go and take some mushrooms on the weekend and we'll get high and have an experience. It's actually sitting in a proper ceremony and doing the work and meeting that plant as well.
Ash: So there's so much more to And that is across the board for people um core shamanic work or even traditional shamanic work. um Again, there's no, and you look at a lot of what's out there at the moment, there's no foundation.
Ash: And these people have just gone and done a weekend workshop or a week-long course and all of a sudden they're out doing these supposedly profound healings on people but are causing more damage to people than they realise.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Sorry, I'm going off rant, aren't I?
Karen Seinor: Yeah. No, no, I'm loving it. I think, you know, there's all these things rushing through my mind and um one of the things was, you know, the mystery schools appeared to have disappeared or they've been they've gone by the wayside because no there's no quick fixes with this kind of approach to life.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: And...
Ash: help
Karen Seinor: to healing, it's slow.
Ash: That's the thing Karen you know and that's such a beautiful point is that it is slow and that if people could really grasp that they would heal I want to say quicker than what they actually are and I've always said this, haven't always said this, but the last few years I've said that these profound supposed healings that everyone's having, they never stick.
Ash: It's like, it and you keep chasing that quick fix all the time. But like you said, if they slowed it down and actually did the deep inner work, it would have a sticking point and it would stick.
Ash: And then over time, things do change and you do heal.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. yeah
Ash: Yeah. There's a school over in the UK that comes to mind, the Bee Society, um a guy by the name of Simon. He had this shamanic school and it was all around bees and things like that.
Ash: And it's just completely unraveled over the last 12, two years. um And it's all come to light that it was all a big load of bullshits.
Ash: You know, so many people went through this school and learnt so much and they were out doing all this weird stuff and they were calling it shamanism and things like that and it's completely unravelled and there's so many people out there sitting back going, holy shit, what have I just been through? what You know, they've gone through all these experiences and things like that and have pretty much been sort of you know,
Ash: kicked to the dog so to speak and left to their own devices and going through all these psychological stuff because they're what they've been taught isn't actually a thing.
Karen Seinor: going
Ash: It was just all made up. this like that Yeah, exactly right.
Karen Seinor: get bitcoin
Ash: yeah And then I can relate that back to myself when I was told certain things and then um finding out that it wasn't actually what it was and then having to ineffectively relearn a lot of stuff.
Ash: um Like I'll never forget the day that I had a drum maker in Australia kick my ass in a massive way and he's someone who I have a lot of respect for and he made me rethink why I was making drums and how was making my drums and that's when my drum making completely changed and whole new energy and a whole new life came into what we were creating.
Ash: And so it's things like that. you know Sometimes it can be really shit and quite confronting to have your whole belief system changed. But in some in a lot of ways, it's actually really good as well.
Ash: So it does.
Karen Seinor: In my book we call that a tower moment.
Ash: Absolutely.
Ash: so wily
Karen Seinor: Yeah. And I guess that... That sort of experience is very much part of the initiations that you go through because when you discover that something's not what it's been presented as and you do that learning, it changes the way you approach everything, I'd imagine, after that.
Ash: does, yeah, youve because you've got to unlearn so much. And then
Ash: i won't say you have to rebuild your foundation, but it gives you different foundation to come from and then you can actually start to build so and any work i think you do you need to have a foundation and then you can start to build the four walls and the roof of the house as well but what a lot of people don't do is build the foundation to start off with they just want to build the walls and the roof straight away
Karen Seinor: And party in the tower at the top.
Ash: yeah exactly there's no foundation to their work and
Karen Seinor: Pushing lives, yeah.
Ash: it's The foundation is the important stuff. It's what you always come back to and you know you revisit it at certain points and add to it, take things away that may not be working anymore or may not resonate for you.
Karen Seinor: Thank you.
Ash: um I look over the course of my last 10, 15 years, how much has dropped off but how much more has come in. Because sometimes you have to let something go for something new to be able to come in.
Ash: And it doesn't mean that necessarily what you've let go of um wasn't good or wasn't worth it. It's just the fact that you've grown as a person and grown potentially beyond that.
Ash: So then that next thing comes in and it helps you grow that little bit more again.
Karen Seinor: Yeah, and those deep, solid foundations is is exactly what allows you to do that.
Ash: Oh, 100%.
Karen Seinor: but flow i love that. I completely agree with you on that.
Ash: Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Yeah, far out.
Ash: Yeah, it's crazy.
Karen Seinor: Oh, my goodness, what else can I ask you about?
Ash: It's interesting.
Karen Seinor: um I mean, you've talked about, really, you've talked about the interconnectedness of life to some degree, you know, quite a bit and
Ash: Yep.
Karen Seinor: And I can hear the threads of how you you run your business. And it's interesting, you've changed the name of your business. Because, you know ah know, I'm aware that many people refer to you as Ashley Medicine Bear and you don't,
Ash: but percent
Karen Seinor: tend to use that name so much anymore, even though that is fundamentally the energy that you hold, yes?
Ash: Oh, absolutely it is. Look, bear medicine is my... It's who I am. And I know that at my core. I... i Yeah, look, as you said, a lot of people know me as Medicine Bear.
Ash: um I used that name for a very long time publicly, um but I'm being completely honest. I had to step away from using it because for me personally, it was very disrespectful to the Native American culture.
Ash: um It was very much culturally appropriating. And these are things that I do talk into quite a lot. And to be quite honest, if I'm not being the example of that in the world, then I'm literally just spewing out a lot of bullshit and not actually walking my talk.
Ash: So I did change my business name for that very reason.
Karen Seinor: Yes.
Ash: And look, I have had someone call me out on that um and As I said, this person I respect quite a lot and he's very, very traditional.
Ash: And look, even before he called me on it, I was having these conundrums with using that name.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: Again, it's who I am. it's all It's always who I'm going to be, but I don't need to use it publicly um and I don't need to have it written up in light as this is who I am.
Ash: um As I said, I just need to be the example of what I want to see out in the world because that's where how it works.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ash: yeah so But I am still that person, but again, I just won't publicly say, oh, I'm such and such.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: But as you said, so many people here locally know me as that name. So, yeah, I get called Bear a lot.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: And, yeah, so it's I don't find that part of it disrespectful, but I personally won't put myself out there and say I'm such and such anymore.
Karen Seinor: So just for the sake of clarity and to make sure I'm understanding fully,
Karen Seinor: you're really saying, if I understand, that you don't want to be calling yourself Ashley Medicine Bear because you're not of a Native American birth.
Ash: Yep.
Ash: 100%. Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Okay.
Ash: yeah Look, I went out and did a naming ceremony with a Native American guy. um And look, without going into too much information around it, because I haven't actually obviously conversed with my spirit animal to say, ask if this is okay.
Ash: ah hu Before I went and did my naming ceremony, I had that animal come to me and it presented itself to me. And when a person's totem comes to you, generally come in three ways or three times.
Ash: um And it did that and it shocked the shit out of me when that happened. And then it was about a week to two weeks later, I went out and did my naming ceremony. And yeah, and that's when I became medicine bear.
Ash: and that So Medicine Bear is my medicine name. Ashley is my Christian name or whatever you want to call that.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: don't like the word Christian, but you know.
Karen Seinor: White fellow, mate.
Ash: Are you excited?
Karen Seinor: White fellow, my name. ah
Ash: That's it. 100%.
Karen Seinor: All right. I always feel like it's okay for me to say naughty things like that because
Ash: but
Ash: ah hundred percent
Karen Seinor: I've been called a white fellow myself a lot of times because I lived in a remote area Aboriginal culture for a while and, yeah, I got called white fella.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: It's interesting, isn't it, this this thing about a name because let's just play there for a minute because when I lived in that remote culture, i was actually given an Aboriginal name by the Aboriginal women I worked with every day.
Ash: Interesting.
Karen Seinor: And they gave me that name. I was not seeking it. I wasn't trying to take on their culture or anything like that. And they shared information with me.
Karen Seinor: um They told me how to bring in weather and just, you know, we'd be driving somewhere over some bush track and they'd be yelling at me to hit that kangaroo and I'm, you know, putting the brake on. They're telling me right off because they're going, that's, you know, that's dinner.
Karen Seinor: And, So they made that decision and they referred between each other, they referred to me as that name amongst themselves.
Karen Seinor: I didn't really take it on. um
Ash: I think that's a show of respect too from them to you. And it's interesting when you say about the kangaroo and hit the kangaroo because that's going to be dinner. um There's obviously an innate connection. I know that that for you personally that would be quite shocking. But for them, you know, it's not do or die, but you've kind of – you you've got to get dinner from somewhere and when you're out in the outback you're not going to go down to the local maccas and you know get a cheeseburger it's like getting food where you can so and know it does come back to that that animism you know that interconnectedness of everything and realizing that that kangaroo showed up at that point for a reason and they knew that and for them that was their dinner and how would have
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: If that kangaroo had died, they would have made offerings and given thanks and it wouldn't have been just like, oh, yeah, let's run the kangaroo over.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: it's really There would have been a process, I would imagine, after that of that reciprocity. you know It's giving thanks and giving back to say thank you for the fact that you've effectively given your life for us to be able to have meat.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: right Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Don't worry, I got into big trouble for that. and
Karen Seinor: But I, because of that experience, I find it interesting when the animal has come to you the what in the traditional way and somebody who is traditional has called you out.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: it's It's fascinating, isn't it, this do we honour the actual teaching and the tradition or do we honour the expectations and wishes of the person who says that they are traditional but is actually not necessarily following
Ash: It is fascinating.
Karen Seinor: the true process because you don't have the correct looking um face. I find that a trick.
Ash: Yeah, it is a trick but again, it also comes back for me straight away, it comes back to that cultural appropriation and not actually culturally appropriating, you know, using techniques or things that you haven't been given permission to use or been told how to use properly.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: ah What comes to mind straight away is the use of the yadaki and the ahve been I actually reached out to ah an indigenous group over in Adelaide who I've brought coolaman off. She puts up posts on Facebook and explains about the the use of the coolaman and how it's used for smudging not smudgings for youth smoke clearing and things like that.
Ash: and she said allies can use it. And I was really blown away because for me, it's a very indigenous tool. um And I was like, hang on a minute, is this really real?
Ash: So I've had a couple of conversations with her around that. And I actually reached out to her about clapsticks the other day because I wanted to use clapsticks in my sound healing or sound journeys.
Ash: And I said, would this be cultural appropriation if I was to use them? And she said to me, if you're using it in the appropriate way, no it's not.
Ash: But if you're using it for monetary reasons and using it in a non-respectful way, then yes, it would be disrespectful to our culture. And then I got onto the conversation about the yidaki and I said, I've seen a...
Karen Seinor: and he I don't know what a new deck is.
Ash: Yidaki is the traditional word for didgeridoo. Okay.
Karen Seinor: Oh, okay.
Ash: um I watched a sound healer from, or a breath worker from Perth, who got absolutely obliterated by the Indigenous culture community, excuse me, up in Queensland, because he used it in a ceremonial aspect, and they tore strips off him.
Ash: And it made me take stock massively go, holy shit, you know, this is our First Nations people, and The Yadaki is such an abused instrument worldwide by white people.
Ash: And um I actually said to her, look, would it be, you know, using the Yadaki in my sound journeys, what's the sort of protocols or would it be okay?
Ash: And she said, to be quite honest with you, i would suggest reaching out to an Indigenous person in the local community, inviting them in, and getting them to talk about the traditional aspects of it, the spiritual nature of it, and building a relationship with the Indigenous community first and foremost.
Ash: And then maybe one day, just maybe, you might get given permission to be able to use it. So there's so many, it is, like I'm trying to come back to that, what you were saying about the traditional use of things and whatnot.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. See?
Ash: And there is, We have a responsibility because as Westerners, we are very privileged and we're a lot more privileged than our First Nations people who have ah ineffectively been told they can't do certain things because they're they're black or they're Native American or whatever.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: And for us to be able to use them,
Karen Seinor: cease
Ash: and it's kind of like a slap in the face to them. Because you look at the, i'm going to use a Native American as an example, it wasn't until the late 70s, I think it was, 70s, maybe early 80s, that they were actually allowed to start doing their traditional ceremonies again.
Ash: They got banned. They weren't even allowed to do things like the pipe ceremony, the sweat lodge, the ghost dance. There's all these ceremonies that they got banned from doing.
Ash: And if they got found out, doing them, they got put into jail. you know so There's so much trauma and stuff around this that we need to do better.
Ash: and sure if you know like For example, I was given permission to do a sweat lodge or was shown how to do a sweat lodge and taught properly by somebody from the Native of American culture and they said, we're going to give you permission to do this.
Ash: then yes, but it's not something you just go out and do on the weekend just because you've seen it and gone, oh yeah, let's run a lodge. There's a gentleman.
Karen Seinor: I saw this on YouTube. Let's do it.
Ash: Exactly, and that's how it is. It's so scary. oh There's a gentleman who I know up Sydney way who trained with a Lakota man for five years in how to do sweat lodge and you know As he said, like you can you can literally kill people in the lodge if you're not careful.
Ash: And there's so much there's so many elements to it as just one thing to just quickly speak about. And it's not something that you should ever charge for.
Ash: um so if you ever... go somewhere and they're like, oh, you come and do this sweat lodge, but we're going to charge you $150. I wouldn't even consider it. I've never sat in one and I will never sit in one until I know that it's been done traditionally and properly and not charged for.
Ash: And I'm a bit hardcore that way. Some people it really gives the shits because there's this, again, it's a Western mentality of we live in different times.
Ash: um We should be able to um charge money for it and blah, blah, blah. I've got bills to pay. ah As this gentleman up in Sydney told me, he said, if you charge for it, the spirits up and leave straight away. They won't stay there. They won't have a bar of it because they know you're not doing it for the right reasons.
Ash: And as he said, if you're being really If you're really connected and really working from the right place, he said, they will have your back and they will bring you exactly what you need when you need it.
Ash: And it's about trust. You know, so that's sorry. I'm going off on a little rant there.
Karen Seinor: No, that's that that is such a huge topic in and of itself, isn't it?
Ash: Oh, 100%. Yep.
Karen Seinor: mean, that's a...
Ash: um percent
Karen Seinor: That is a massive sore point for so many um healers of all kinds.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: And I know myself, I've i've struggled with that too. and Like massively, I remember once, I remember once, and this is so long ago now, my kids were little and my son's 42 now.
Karen Seinor: um and This lady contacted me. She wanted me to organise a group meditation. And so I've got two kids, recently split up.
Karen Seinor: There's a mortgage that has to be paid. I'm not getting child support, right? And I said to this lady, okay, it's $5 a person as an exchange.
Karen Seinor: I did all the prep for it. You know, that doesn't happen by itself. It's time and energy and things like that.
Ash: absolutely
Karen Seinor: And she turns up alone
Karen Seinor: and in her brand new Volvo.
Karen Seinor: ah didn't have a car at that time. So I'm, and i I was so challenged by that.
Ash: sorry
Karen Seinor: And I had a conversation with her and I said, look, you're going to need to, you know, you're going to need to pay $35 because it's, you know, I was expecting a group, da, da, da.
Karen Seinor: And she actually really pushed back and she wanted me to own it. She only wanted to pay me $5 for an hour and a half. um And that was such a massive turning point for me.
Karen Seinor: From that point in time,
Karen Seinor: um and she was an accountant She just, like, I knew these things about her because she told me. She lived in this posh suburb. She just built this, like, our worlds were so incredibly far apart.
Karen Seinor: And I'd had such a challenge with money. You know I'd come from a space where that, I mean, that's still a learning point and is for so many healers, I think, all those past life connections and shit as a nun.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Um...
Karen Seinor: and But from that point in time, i actually broke through to a large degree this thing about asking for money for my time.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: and
Karen Seinor: But I remember that that's exactly the time when it happened because that attitude. And so there are times when I still get a little bit caught with this, you know, i have to pay.
Karen Seinor: my bills and all those things. And yes, I do have gifts and skills, but I've spent my life and my money gathering those things.
Karen Seinor: So how do we balance that out? I know this is not really the topic of the conversation specifically, but this is an issue in the shamanic world also, yes?
Karen Seinor: Obviously.
Ash: and yeah look A lot of traditional teachers don't charge for their work and they say that because that's how they were instructed to do it.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: It kind of makes you take stock a little bit and go, hang on a minute, why is there these courses you know where they're charging thousands and thousands of dollars to learn techniques and things like that.
Ash: And then you've got these hardcore traditional people who aren't charging jack shit, excuse me, but they're not charging anything.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: And they're giving away traditional teachings. um It is a really huge conundrum and ah think big thing. look for my bone and stuff like that, I definitely charge because that to me is not a traditional healing thing.
Ash: Um, but if you're going to go sit in a sweat lodge or a pipe ceremony or something like that, that has been, that was effectively gifted to the people by the white calf Buffalo woman, um, to help heal them.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: Um, it's about respect. It's about that reciprocity. It's, It's about honouring where those teachings have come from and not actually taking the piss.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: you know As Graeme has said to me, you know he said, if you can't afford a ton of wood, why the hell are you running a sweat lodge? you know If you can't, you know, because, and he is so, what he gets gifted to him and given to him by spirit is freaking phenomenal.
Ash: and it's it's because he does it in a proper traditional way and I have so much respect for him for that.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: and oh I think it needs to happen more often and more across the board. it's yeah There's so much going on. like I could talk into it for hours because it just really grazed my bones but again, I've had my butt kicked
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: many times and it's made me take stock of different things and rework of the way I do things and the way I look at things as well too and look to be quite frank with you we're screaming for traditional ways and traditional ways of doing things and oh but doing them properly and not taking the piss and not just saying alright this is $5,000 and all about just
Karen Seinor: yeah
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: um it's all about just line in your back pocket. Like, yeah, sure, there there has to be an aspect of reciprocity, giving something, you're receiving something back.
Ash: But again, if you're literally taking the piss and charging ridiculous amounts of money, i think that's when it becomes a problem.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yes, I'm um hearing you so well on that one. I got caught with that. I paid a couple of grand for something not all that long ago.
Karen Seinor: and had a snag and got dropped.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: And that's how I felt about it at the time anyway. It was a great lesson for me. It was a great reminder.
Ash: Absolutely. Well, I look at some of my shamanic training that I've done and, like, I've paid big money to go and do some of my shamanic training. And
Ash: if I wanted to unpack that, again, it's very similar thing. Like, I just think it's all bullshit now, like the whole thing.
Karen Seinor: Mm-hmm. Yes. yeah
Ash: um I don't say that lightly, oh but I say that because for anybody watching this, I want them to really do their homework and really ask lots of questions. you know Don't be afraid to ask questions, of when especially when you're going to do a course. Where have you done your training? Who have you trained with?
Ash: And if they're not willing to tell you, then nine times out of ten they're completely full of shit and you want to run for the hills and don't go anywhere near them. ah who
Karen Seinor: Tell us what you really think.
Ash: yeah People need to hear it and I can be a little bit blunt and upfront but it's because i have been through the ringer.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: I love it.
Ash: um I've seen some pretty shady shit. and I don't want to see people go down the path that I have well if that's what they're meant to do so be it but I also want people to to have the knowledge and have the courage to be able to ask questions and just call people out on their shit and just ask them questions lots of questions because if they're genuine like sure you know you're not going to get a traditional teaching just because you've asked for it but you know
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: If you're going to train with someone, they should be able to tell you who they've trained with and what they've done and where it's come from because that's where lineages get created and um yeah and where where that foundation comes in.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: Sorry, I go off on a little rant.
Karen Seinor: It's amazing. I'm just thinking about what you said about, you know, the fellow who said to you about the load of wood, and it's reminded me of um a load of wood that won because I'd been thinking, and this was just, was it last year?
Karen Seinor: was last year or the year before. Winter Solstice was coming up. must have been the year before. And what dropped in, you know, because I get stuff early in the morning because my brain is so busy all the time, they have to give me information just before I come to consciousness, before all the shit flows in.
Karen Seinor: um And it was like, yeah, you need to have the fire all night. So I was like, okay, all right, cool. I've got to run a fire for 24 hours. That's fine. The neighbours are used to me doing weird shit now. I mean, I bang the drum and stuff.
Karen Seinor: um And I do tend to do that. And I was like, oh well, I guess I'm going to need some wood. And I went to Harris Farms, I think it was.
Karen Seinor: And as I went in there, i saw that there was a raffle. And there was the first prize was a load of wood. And I went, oh, that must be for me then.
Karen Seinor: So I went and bought my ticket. after I'd gone and got my loaf of bread. And I said, oh, well, just call me when, you know, you want to drop it off. Laugh, laugh, laugh.
Karen Seinor: Drove away. That afternoon, they delivered the wood. Not only did they deliver it, they bloody stacked it for me exactly where I needed it.
Ash: Eh, no.
Karen Seinor: And it was hilarious. Like, I laughed so much. I was driving. um In fact, I won two loads of wood.
Karen Seinor: I think the next year I won one um
Karen Seinor: as well. But, you know, so that what you're talking about, the gifting, is is very true. And i it it is trust. I know myself, I sometimes lack trust.
Ash: Yeah,
Karen Seinor: I don't trust enough. And I think that's one of my greatest lessons in this space. Like the other day, Someone offered me $1,000.
Karen Seinor: I mean, no shit, Sherlock. Just, I've got $1,000. If you need that, you just, if you want it was. If you want it, if you would like it for that purpose, just tell me and I'll get it for you straight away.
Ash: we're all
Karen Seinor: And I was like, whoa. I was kind of blown away and in a different timeframe, would have melted down over something like that.
Karen Seinor: But I just held steady and i just received ah just received the information and I just looked at this person and I said, thank you so much. I really deeply appreciate that.
Karen Seinor: And if that becomes appropriate, I'll ask.
Ash: Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. And that's again, like you said, coming back to that trust, you know, that spirit will provide for you.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Again, it's something that we're so far removed from. you know And it is going back to the old ways, but it's the old ways in a more modern context, and it's bringing those old ways back.
Ash: And I think that's what we're all yearning for.
Karen Seinor: Yeah, I totally believe what you're saying there. I think it is so challenging to actually live in this world and genuinely follow that path because everything around us in ordinary world, to use your terminology, is counter to that and to move into the non-ordinary world
Ash: Absolutely. Yep.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: to use your terminology, is insanity, you know.
Ash: Well, yeah, exactly. it's this or This reality is consume, consume, consume as much as possible. And it's like keeping you locked in this little box and not allowing you to step outside.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Or they don't want you to step outside that box.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Because when you're in that box, you're controlled or whatever it is. And to step into that non-ordinary reality, there's nothing of this reality in there. It's very primitive, very tribal, very...
Ash: I don't want to use the word basic, but it's like pairing it right back and taking it back to that primal that primal place. Yeah, that's all within us, but we just don't know how to access it sometimes.
Karen Seinor: We're afraid. Do you feel like when we go into that non-ordinary reality that we move more into our heart?
Karen Seinor: Difficult question, I suppose.
Ash: and It is a difficult question, but If you want me to be honest with you, it sounds a bit new agey.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: oh And look, it could be us coming into our heart space, but I want to use the words, it's more about coming home to ourselves.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Okay.
Ash: Yeah. Like it could be more of your heart, but yeah, look, when I hear that, I just struggle.
Karen Seinor: probably what I mean though.
Ash: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: It's probably what I actually mean coming home to self because for me coming home is me feeling myself inside my torso, I guess.
Ash: Yeah.
Ash: yeah like
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: yeah
Karen Seinor: But, I mean, I've been well-schooled in the new age wazoo fluffy terminology. Yeah.
Ash: so I've been trying to let that all go as well um and that yeah it's why my bones get so crated these days with all the
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: new age terminology and trying to
Ash: unpack it all, you know, and then, yeah, but it's like get back to basics and build a bloody foundation and build on that foundation, you know.
Karen Seinor: Can I ask you, are you in a place where you are teaching?
Ash: It's so funny you bring that up. Like I'm getting so pushed by spirit to finally step into that role.
Karen Seinor: So nice.
Ash: And I'm so reluctant to step into that role um because when you teach, you have a responsibility to actually impart knowledge onto people. And
Ash: it's so funny. I was so resistant to coming on to doing this talk today with you because, and I said this to my wife this morning, holy shit i have to actually go on there and talk about stuff that's in my head and verbalize that stuff like i can go through the motions and do it all and um and whatnot but when you've got to unpack it and explain it for people it brings in a whole nother level of stuff that you have to unpack um to answer your question
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah.
Ash: I kind of teach, but I don't. um As I said, I'm shit scared to step into that space ah because I don't think all I tell, the the bullshit I tell it myself is that I don't have enough knowledge in my head to be able to teach.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: But then I start unpacking all this stuff and I'm about to go off in a couple of weeks and help my dear friend Renee run her Holding Sacred space ah holding sacred and Ceremonial Space course.
Ash: And as part of that course, I do a ah talk on shamanic tools and how to use them. And I sat down and started downloading all this information onto paper and I sat back about three quarters of the way through went, holy shit, there's actually quite a bit in there.
Ash: I was quite shocked at what was in my head.
Karen Seinor: o
Ash: but but
Karen Seinor: So watch this space.
Ash: Yeah, definitely, look, it is,
Ash: It's definitely coming. I want to, I'm really getting called to teach people how to do energy healing, energy clearing.
Ash: ah I don't, want to call it Reiki level one and level two, they will be a part of it, but it's more about teaching people the fundamentals of energy work because one it's so, there's so much wishy-washy shit out there and just grates me.
Karen Seinor: God. Yeah.
Karen Seinor: and
Ash: it really grates me. um And I want to give people a good foundation um to come from and then go, off you go, go and learn more and become better than I am.
Ash: um But I want to give you a really solid foundation to come from as well. So eventually, hopefully not too far down the track, I will have, I don't know, like an energy course and you will get initiated into Reiki as part of that, but it won't be just like a level one Reiki course, it'll actually be giving you some really solid tools to be able to go out and um do some decent work with people and not just saying, you know, here you are, you're initiated, see you later, give me your money, you know, and you're not my problem anymore.
Karen Seinor: Actually.
Ash: which is how a lot of Reiki masters are. oh You know, you look at Reiki and they're doing Reiki online and oh you just can't. And I hope there's some people on here that hear this because you cannot do your Reiki initiations online. I don't give a shit if you're Yasui himself.
Ash: um You just, you can't do it. You need to do it in person. And this is where it comes back to the, the spiritual community, the new age community really taking the piss out of these traditional
Ash: healing modalities and taking them so far away from what they originally were. Because I remember, I think it was Crowe said that Yisui was like 10 years between level two and to the time that Yisui would take you up to a master.
Ash: And so, you know, that's 10 years, that's a long time. And you've really got to prove yourself in that time.
Karen Seinor: Yep.
Ash: Whereas these days it's like, come and do level one and level two in one weekend and another month will take you up to your masters. And it's like, come on, you can't tell me you've mastered Reiki in less than six months.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: It just doesn't work like that.
Karen Seinor: That's right.
Ash: So, yeah.
Karen Seinor: Exactly. It's what you were talking about earlier. It's about laying that very strong foundation the
Ash: Absolutely. like
Karen Seinor: to genuinely be able to deal with the energy and transmit that energy, but it's all the stuff around that as well.
Ash: Oh, absolutely.
Karen Seinor: Mm.
Ash: There's so much more that it encompasses. And again, as I said, it's about bringing in the tools and giving them the tools. And I think that's what a lot of teachers do these days too, is they hold back information out of fear of their students becoming better than them.
Ash: But in hindsight, and I said this to a young guy that was here a week ago because he asked me to teach him and I said to him, look, dude, if I'm going to teach you, I said, I want to do it properly and I want to actually make sure that when I send you out that you're going to be really good and eventually you'll be better than me.
Karen Seinor: Hmm.
Ash: And I said, I want you to be better than me because if I send you out, I'm not going to send you out as a half-assed practitioner because i that is my lineage the right there and I don't want to see you out there doing dodgy stuff or doing doing half-assed Reiki sessions on people.
Ash: could say Reiki, but healing work on people without having the tools.
Karen Seinor: And that is, I've seen this and heard this and I freaking know this, that is the sign of a teacher. That is the sign that the person is a teacher, that their students are better than them.
Ash: Oh, exactly. That's one thing Crow always said, you know he said, you should be better than me eventually. And that really struck me.
Karen Seinor: He's such a naughty man in so many ways. Yeah.
Ash: hey And look, I don't have a lot to do with him these days, but ah for various reasons, but yeah, it's, that has stuck with me, you know, that your student should effectively be better than you.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Yeah.
Ash: And look, you know, you could, There's a lot of ego and stuff that comes into that. Like you sit back and you go, hang on a minute, you can't be better than me. You might steal my clients or people won't even see me.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: But again, that's just all that humanness that comes into it as well.
Karen Seinor: And that's, I mean, that's part of the journey, isn't it? It's like part of the ever-evolving journey of the soul or whatever you want to call it, to address those things because the teachers have to keep learning too.
Ash: Oh, 100% we do. Yeah, definitely. You never saw
Karen Seinor: Ash, I've just seen the time. We've been chatting for just a moment or two.
Ash: We're far ahead. It was supposed to be like 40 minutes.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Karen Seinor: So I wonder um whether we should just sort of try and wrap this up and maybe talk another day if it becomes appropriate for us to do that.
Ash: Absolutely. That sounds good.
Karen Seinor: So just um yeah i didn't mean to cut you off. I just went, oh, my.
Ash: No, you're right.
Karen Seinor: So you are doing regular group sessions here in person, locally, and also online. you are going further afield, obviously, to do some work.
Ash: Yep, so I do pretty much fortnightly sound journeys here.
Karen Seinor: Yep.
Ash: do go down to Wangaratta to do sound journeys. I am available to go further than that. So if there's somebody out there that's watching this who lives I don't know, wherever, they're like, oh, we might get him to come here. Just reach out to me and shoot me a message. more than happy to come.
Karen Seinor: Yep.
Ash: um i do monthly breathwork sessions. So I do shamanic breathwork and also yin breathwork or rebirthing breathwork.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: So the shamanic breathwork is a very yang style, very masculine. The rebirthing yin is a very yin, very feminine, gentle style of breathwork.
Ash: um Also, well, coming back to your question about teaching, we'll eventually step more into teaching people about, i don't know, energy healing, but also are using their medicine tools, so the drum, the rattle, um different sound healing tools.
Karen Seinor: yeah
Ash: And, yeah, that is in the pipeworks. So it's interesting that you brought that up and that will eventuate. Yeah.
Karen Seinor: Beautiful. So how can people get hold of you if they want to, like, find out about that or book a session or something like that?
Ash: Um, so you can find me under the business name, Acuna balance and flow. So I have a Facebook page where you can go onto and, um, it has like my information.
Ash: It has my events and stuff on there as well.
Karen Seinor: Cool.
Ash: also on Instagram under Acuna balance and flow. Um, I do post my events on humanities as well.
Karen Seinor: Yeah.
Ash: So you can follow me on there. On my Facebook page, there is my phone number as well too.
Karen Seinor: Yeah, cool.
Ash: So you can shoot me a message or give me a call. Yeah, it's fair ways to find me.
Karen Seinor: Beautiful.
Ash: I don't usually advertise for my healing work and stuff like that. It's pretty much all word of mouth. I do that purposely because, yeah, look, I could see every Tom, Dick and Harry, but I'd rather have the people come that actually want the work done and want to do the work. and um Yeah, look, as I said, most of my clients are word of mouth and that's what I really love because it's the best advertising.
Karen Seinor: yeah Well, you're going to get the right energetic match then, aren't you?
Ash: Absolutely, yeah.
Karen Seinor: Yeah. Beautiful. All right then. Well, Ash, thank you so much. We've been chatting nearly an hour and a half and it's been a genuine pleasure.
Ash: Thank you.
Karen Seinor: I've loved chatting with you. We've gone down to some, you know little laneways and around some roundabouts and that's been really cool. I've loved it. So thank you so much for your time. It's very much appreciated.
Ash: ah Look, thanks for asking me to come on. Yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure and was it wasn't as scary as I thought it was going to be.
Karen Seinor: See, I'm not...
