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00:00:01
Tropes: And Then There Were None
112 Plays15 hours ago
Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None is one of the most read books of all time. In this episode, Brook and Sarah discuss why it continues to be a favourite and the tropes that it features.
Discussed and mentioned
And Then There Were None (1939) Agatha Christie
One by One (2020) Ruth Ware
The Sanatorium (2021) Sarah Pearse
The Invisible Host (1930) Gwen Bristow and Bruce Manning
Among Us (2018) Innersloth
The Decagon House Murders (2015 translation of 1987 original) Yukito Ayatsuji
Daisy Darker (2022) Alice Feeney
In the Dark (2019) Loreth Anne White
The Guest List (2020) Lucy Foley
Murder Mystery Roblox
Clue boardgame
You Are Fatally Invited (2025) Ande Pliego
The Library After Dark (2026) Ande Pliego
Related episodes
Mystery Fun and Games (released May 7, 2024)
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Music: Signs To Nowhere by Shane Ivers – www.silvermansound.com
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Order Life or Delft by Brook and Sarah
For a full episode transcript, visit https://cluedinmystery.com/tropes-and-then-there-were-none/
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Theme
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke, and we both love mystery. Hi, Brooke. Hi, Sarah.
Discussion of Agatha Christie's 'And Then There Were None'
00:00:21
Speaker
Today, we're talking about one of Agatha Christie's most iconic stories.
00:00:27
Speaker
That's right, and I'm really looking forward to it. We're going to be speaking about And Then There Were None and some of the tropes that we associate with that book and the legacy of that book.
00:00:40
Speaker
There are bound to be spoilers in this, so if you haven't read it, we encourage you to do so. Otherwise, enjoy. So I'll just give a little introduction.
00:00:52
Speaker
A group of people, sometimes strangers, sometimes friends, gathers in a location and one by one, each is killed, usually with a different method. It's the setup for one of my favorite types of mystery.
00:01:05
Speaker
They're often closed circle, meaning the killer must be one of the party. The characters frequently encounter obstacles from some combination of weather, technology, or location. And there are always secrets to serve as the motive.
Impact and Controversies of the Novel
00:01:20
Speaker
We can thank Agatha Christie for this trope and the twists that come with it. Her novel, now published as And Then There Were None, though originally released in 1939 with a title that is recognized as racist, this book has sold millions and continues to inspire authors.
00:01:36
Speaker
Brooke, I look forward to spending some time discussing this book, its tropes, and its legacy with you. Yes, this is going to be a lot of fun, Sarah, because as you said, we're not just talking about the book itself, but also um the way that it has shaped mysteries since then and its influence in so many of the stories we read and watch today.
00:01:58
Speaker
So just doing a little bit of research about this, Wikipedia says that it is the best-selling mystery title of all time, having sold over 100 million copies, which is just incredible.
00:02:11
Speaker
mind-blowing. hu Right. I think it still sells like 150,000 copies a year or something, which is so far surpasses what most like contemporary authors are selling per year per title. It's like you say, mind-boggling.
00:02:28
Speaker
And it's very different than a lot of her other books, isn't it? Yeah. It's dark, right? It's a Ultimately, it explores this idea of justified murder. That's not the only time that Agatha Christie does that, right?
00:02:45
Speaker
We can list off some of her other titles that she explores that theme. um But she plays with the idea of the bad guy, or in this case, bad guys, getting justice. But the ultimate bad guy doesn't actually get justice in this book. And and we've talked about before, we've talked about how um that happens.
00:03:05
Speaker
resolution that seeing the the bad guy getting caught or getting that justice is one of the things that people love about mystery. But still, people love this book.
00:03:18
Speaker
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Unique Aspects and Key Tropes
00:03:20
Speaker
I see another difference is that there's not a detective in this book. And I think that that um makes it seem more like a thriller, what we would call a thriller these days, ah because it's, as you described in the intro, it's just this group of people and we even get multiple points of view, which is also quite different from some of Agatha Christie's other books. And really those...
00:03:50
Speaker
beginnings of what we think of as thrillers. I would agree. It's a very suspenseful story. i read it every couple of years. And the last time I read it, it had been long enough that ah you know my memory had failed and I couldn't really remember what was what was going to happen. And I can remember feeling like that kind of tension as I was as i was reading it. So i yeah, I think you can definitely draw a line from and Then There Were None to the domestic thrillers that we see now.
00:04:22
Speaker
um But your point about the detective ah is a great one because, you know, you think of her other really well-known titles, Death on the Nile or Murder on the Orient Express. Those are both Poirot stories, right? He's the detective in those. And in in this book, the police only make an appearance at the end in the epilogue.
00:04:47
Speaker
And very confused. Yes. Completely confused about what possibly could have happened. Yeah, so there's no actual investigation. But as you say, that can be typical of ah domestic thriller, that there are there's limited police involvement. It's not a police procedural or or or the detective as as the sleuth.
00:05:11
Speaker
And that's ah also because of something you mentioned before, which is this um isolation. The police couldn't get to them even even if they wanted to, or the ah or the characters have no way to contact the police. And that really ramps up that suspense and that feeling of fear. I think that what you said, like even reading it now, even though you know how it's going to turn out, it's really easy to put yourself in the position of these people and think, what in what would I do? That is so creepy.
00:05:47
Speaker
And that sort of isolation, that inability to contact the police, those are some of the key tropes that we associate with this book and any book that draws on And Then There Were None as its as it's inspiration. There's also that mysterious host.
00:06:07
Speaker
Right. People have received invitations. They're not entirely clear on why they've been invited to this. They um don't know the host or they know very little about the host. They're often strangers. Right. They don't know each other. um Although it does work really well when we've seen other authors play with this. I think it does work really well when it is a group of friends or family that has gathered, right? um There's a different element to the tension then.
00:06:41
Speaker
And I think another trope that draws from and Then There Were None is that idea of clues being in the invitation or this accompanying rhyme or story that kind of weaves itself through the book.
00:06:57
Speaker
Absolutely. You mentioned the mysterious host, and ah I found it really interesting that this idea had been used before and influenced Christy, but her version of it was so well done that since then it's been known as the and then there were none trope.
00:07:16
Speaker
Yeah. and And I think that's a great point because a lot of the other tropes that we think of ah associated with this book, she wasn't necessarily the first to use any of them, but she just pulled them all together in such a brilliant way.
00:07:31
Speaker
Right. I wanted to share a little bit of the author's note from her book. She says, I had written this book because it was so difficult to do and that the idea had fascinated me. Ten people had to die without it becoming ridiculous or the murderer being obvious.
00:07:48
Speaker
I wrote the book after a tremendous amount of planning and I was pleased with what I had made of it. Yeah, she should be pleased. And I was a little bit happy to to know that she did find it difficult, that it was a challenge for her.
00:08:04
Speaker
I think she does pull that off, right? Like it each of the deaths ah is unique, but they're also not, they're also believable, hu right? As believable as they are after you've suspended your disbelief.
00:08:20
Speaker
Yes, good point. Yes, yes. We are reading a mystery after all. So I was reading along trying to pay attention to any passage with Wargrave talking, who is the perpetrator. And um I was really impressed because she poses him as kind of the leader because that's a fine line, isn't it? You don't want to make him so sympathetic that the reader automatically goes, oh, well, that's who it is because she's trying to make him seem you know, so brave and knowledgeable. And she also can't make him seem villainous because that would be obvious. But I think she does such a great job balancing that. And and it is one of those books that I wish I could go back and read for the first time and not know.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I remember um not this time, but the last time that I read it, as I said, you know, enough time had passed. um So I was quite pleased that i I had that, you know, oh, my goodness, I totally forgot.
00:09:24
Speaker
But as you were just talking, I was reminded of um there's a BBC adaptation. that is available
Adaptations and Modern Inspirations
00:09:33
Speaker
to stream. I found the way that the characters, they were all just too unlikable.
00:09:42
Speaker
I have read books where every single character is unlikable and it's kind of difficult to read a book like that. I don't find that with this book. They are not all terrible people.
00:09:56
Speaker
even though each one of them are guilty for potentially terrible crime, they're not terrible people. And I haven't seen the BBC version, but I have watched, it's a Netflix adaptation.
00:10:10
Speaker
And i would say something similar was done there. I did enjoy it, but I agree with you that they make the characters a little more villainous.
00:10:23
Speaker
each one of them. The other thing I've noticed, and I think I've found this in two adaptations I've watched actually, there's this romance that's interjected. And so then when I reread the k Christie book this week, I thought, oh yeah, there's really no romance at all in this. I'm not sure where that came from, but ah that is not part of this story.
00:10:47
Speaker
So as you mentioned, Brooke, there are a lot of adaptations of this story. ah i guess we're probably unlikely to see Kenneth Branagh adapt it because Poirot is not in in the book.
00:11:02
Speaker
And I don't think it would work for him to be added. But there are also a lot of other books that have been inspired by this work.
00:11:16
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Like so many. Once you see it, you can't not see it. Two came to my mind right away, One by One by Ruth Ware, which is one of my favorite authors, as regular listeners will know. ah This is a group of tech professionals who go on a retreat to a ski chalet, and they get snowed in and The, and then there were none trope ensues. um And another one is a little different, but I think it's still, i think it's still encapsulates the idea of, and then there were none. And this is sanatorium by Sarah purse. In this one, there aren't as many deaths, but we definitely see that influence of an isolated, large, large,
00:12:10
Speaker
building where crazy things are going on and there's a murderer. Yeah. So I haven't read the Ruth Ware book. i I think I'm holding off because ah you talk about it and and you enjoy it so much. Maybe I'll add it to my summer reading list this year work.
00:12:27
Speaker
But I have read The Sanatorium. And yeah, I would say that it it definitely draws on, but departs from ah and Then There Were None. um But with the Ruth Ware book, you know her setting it in snow in winter is one way that authors can...
00:12:51
Speaker
kind of make this story their own, right? And I read a great example by an author named Lorith Ann White ah called In the Dark. And i read it a few years ago. It was published in 2019.
00:13:06
Speaker
And if I recall correctly, it's set in northern British Columbia, which is very remote, the ideal setting for this kind of a thing. And it's I believe it's set in winter or there is a winter storm.
00:13:23
Speaker
I think in the dark is one of the better interpretations of this story that I've read. um So a couple of other examples would be, i think, Daisy Darker by Alice Feeney, The Guest List by Lucy Foley, and a couple of her other books as well, I would um i would say draw on that on that theme.
00:13:44
Speaker
The Decagon House Murders by Yukito Ayatsuchi interesting. again, another one, another excellent example of an interpretation of And Then There Were None. And this one um plays with a literary theme because a lot of the characters go by the names of famous authors. And yeah, it's it it's a great, it's a great read. It's translated from Japanese and I highly, highly recommend it.
00:14:17
Speaker
And another example, Brooke, I think you and i both read this last year You Are Fatally Invited by Andy Pliego.
Influence on Other Genres and Media
00:14:25
Speaker
And I thought that was a pretty good interpretation as well.
00:14:29
Speaker
Yes. And also unique because I like it when an author puts their own spin on the trope and puts in some different elements and maybe sets it in a unique season. So yes, You Are Fatally Invited is a great example.
00:14:46
Speaker
Sarah, don't you think that this trope is something we also see in the horror genre? Absolutely. i think a lot of horror films draw on the same setup, right?
00:14:59
Speaker
The characters are are picked off one by one. And I don't watch a lot of horror, um but the little that I have seen, you know, definitely has that. You know, I think about... um is it Is it in the Scream movies where one of the characters is a like a movie buff and he kind of is giving this meta-analysis of what's happening as as it's happening?
00:15:26
Speaker
ah So then there's also this um hint that we get in, and then ah there were none, of the final girl trope that I think is very common in horror because the character Vera Claythorne
00:15:44
Speaker
the final character to die, or at least we think she's the final character to die. Yes, yes. And I think that we also see the vigilante justice idea in these horror movies too, which is heavily influenced from And Then There Were None.
00:16:03
Speaker
Because sometimes the killer is, you know, out to get the group of kids who did this bad thing and they're picked off one by one and they're they're meeting their justice. um Yeah, yeah i've it's fun to think about the way those two things intersect.
00:16:21
Speaker
We've talked about some of the books that have been um influenced by this trope. But I'm interested to see that it's still in very much in pop culture. And with some of our younger people, i think we see, and then there were none, a lot in their games that they're playing, whether it's digital games or even board games.
00:16:43
Speaker
Well, and I think ah Clue or Cluedo in the UK was inspired by and Then There Were None. Certainly it's this you know manor house and there's all of these all of these characters. i guess you know I guess in Clue there's just the one victim, but you certainly have this manor house and what appears to be a group of people who are unknown to each other.
00:17:10
Speaker
And that closed circle. I remember when my daughter was a younger teenager, there was a Roblox game called Murder Mystery. And so independently, the kids could play together and there was a murderer and then innocence. And you had to try to determine which of your friends who was playing the game was the murderer and at the same time stay alive. And I mean, that is, and then there were none right there.
00:17:39
Speaker
um Yeah, that's that's very similar just to the parlor game Wink Murder, right? um Which I think we've talked about before and I'm fairly certain was something that was played before Agatha Christie wrote her book.
00:17:57
Speaker
But you can just see how all of those things influence each other and have continued to continued to be in pop culture. yes
Engagement with Listeners and Upcoming Content
00:18:09
Speaker
So Brooke, I think we should do a read along of, and then there were none. And we can maybe, um even though we've both read it before, we can you know talk about our reactions to the book, reading it again.
00:18:24
Speaker
i think that would be so much fun. and And then those bonus episodes will be released to anyone who subscribes to our newsletter. So you know go out and make sure you're subscribed so you can get that and read along with us.
00:18:39
Speaker
Thank you, Brooke, for this conversation. It has been so much fun. It's been great, Sarah. And we're not done with this topic yet because we mentioned Andy Pliego earlier and we actually get to interview her because her next book plays with the and then there were none trope as well. So stay tuned for that really great episode coming up.
00:19:02
Speaker
But until next time, thank you for joining us on Clued in Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah. And we both love mystery.
00:19:13
Speaker
Clued in Mystery is written and produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen. Music is by Shane Ivers. If you liked what you heard, please consider telling a friend, leaving a review, or subscribing with your favorite podcast listening app.
00:19:27
Speaker
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