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041 | Theology of Worship with Alana Nelson
447 Plays4 years ago
Much requested!! In this interview with Wheaton College guest lecturer Alana Nelson we discuss the history of theology and music in the church, how to discern through worship, and what our heart posture should be as we approach the Lord.
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Transcript
Introduction to Verity Podcast and Guests
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Verity. I'm your host, Felicia Masonheimer, an author, speaker, and Bible teacher. This podcast will help you embrace the history and depth of the Christian faith, ask questions, seek answers, and devote yourself to becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. You don't have to settle for watered-down Christian teaching. And if you're ready to go deeper, God is just as ready to take you there. This is Verity, where every woman is a theologian.
00:00:30
Speaker
Well, hi everybody and welcome. I'm Felicia Masonheimer and
00:00:35
Speaker
I am with every woman of theologian and tonight we have the privilege of interviewing my childhood friend and we in guest lecturer Alana Nelson on the theology of worship. I am so excited to introduce you guys to Alana and give you a chance to hear from her expertise and what she has to share on this topic. This is probably one of the most requested topics I've ever had.
00:01:02
Speaker
All right. Hi, Alana. Welcome. Hello. I can hear you. Perfect. Perfect. I'm so excited to do this. I'm so excited. Yeah, I'm sorry. I know. I'm so excited. You haven't like actually talked in person in a lot of years. It's true. We basically like keep up an Instagram DMs and then I was like, can you please give me some information on this? And it turned into an interview. It did. It did.
00:01:29
Speaker
Okay, so I'm going to do your official introduction, but I want you to flush it out for us a little bit. So, Alana is a guest lecturer at Wheaton College, where she specializes in teaching introduction to music history to non-music majors.
Kingdom Worship and Theology of the Arts
00:01:44
Speaker
A vital component of the course is helping the students to recognize their role as
00:01:49
Speaker
kingdom worshippers that they were created to create and to help them articulate a theology of the arts. She has spent nearly a decade on the worship team of High Point Collective and currently resides on a suburban farm with her husband, two boys, horses, goats, chickens, cats, and a dog. Yes, so many animals.
00:02:10
Speaker
So many animals. Well, I am so excited to have you here and we have a lot to cover. I love, love, love some of the topics Alana gave me for content for this discussion. So why don't we just start with you sharing a little bit more of your background and then we'll jump in. Absolutely. So I started studying music when I was just a kid. I was four or five years old. I started studying the piano.
00:02:34
Speaker
And I loved it. I remember that my dad tells this story where I was trying to figure out this song, and I wasn't taking lessons yet, so it was four. And it came to me kind of in the middle of the night. So I went downstairs and I played the piano. And my parents were like, what are you doing in the middle of the night? You're waking the house. I was like, I've got it. I've got it. So I've just loved music from the get-go.
00:03:00
Speaker
My dad led worship at the church that we went to growing up, and I loved being part of that, however that was. So I would wake up really early. You know, that was back in the day before, you know, we had planning center, and the songs were in the week or two weeks before. And so I'd get up with him, you know, 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock in the morning, and I'd go and help him pick music and sort music, and I'd put it on people's stand. So this was something that's been in my heart my whole life.
00:03:28
Speaker
He really wanted me to participate in the worship team as well and play piano, but I was a snob, like a total snob. And I literally told my piano teacher, my dad wants me to learn how to play chords, but I don't. And, you know, I'm 10, 11 years old, right? And so I eventually, you know, that was ridiculous because hello, chord, foundation of everything. So I, needless to say, learn how to play chords. And by the age of 12, I was playing in a worship team.
00:03:58
Speaker
And then throughout high school was co-leading with my dad, a youth team at our church. I saw a lot of people go to music school and get burnt out. And I was really afraid of like, God, I don't want to lose my passion for music because music was a way for me to commune with God when words failed.
Passion for Music and God's Calling
00:04:17
Speaker
right, when the anxiety was so much that, you know, I just wanted to go throw up and I would, you know, like, I couldn't handle it, but I could sit down and play music and feel that God was with me and pour out my heart to him in that way. And I was like, I can't lose that. And then, so I was pre-law in math, which is not an uncommon combination. If you start looking at music history and, you know, composers, you start to see that that's, you know, a common thread.
00:04:46
Speaker
And I felt like God said to me, you don't have to be afraid of losing your passion. I have created you for music, to create music and you have what it takes basically to sit through those hours and hours of rehearsal and not lose your passion and not lose that connection.
00:05:03
Speaker
So I did. So I went ahead and I studied music. I changed my major, went to Wheaton College for my undergrad, you know, got married out of that and out of college and then went to grad school. And then I started teaching at university at 22. And so I was, I was the same age as my students back then. And then, you know, took a break when I had kids and got the college teacher at Wheaton two years ago. So that's where I've been for the last, you know, decades.
00:05:31
Speaker
Oh, wow. I love that. It's just crazy. I remember that you, I think I remember when you started your master's program, you were really young when you started your master's program. Yeah. Well, I graduated young. So I, that's why I was homeschooled from fourth grade on. And so I was pulled out halfway through and you know, what's your stereotypical like, how fast can I do this?
00:05:57
Speaker
and so i graduated young so i you know i was married at 20 but i was already done with college you know and so i started i took a break i took a year off from between undergrad and grad school so i was i was young but i wasn't you know like 20 i was 22 i was in 21
00:06:17
Speaker
Well, it is amazing to have you here to talk about this because I think your journey, but also the fact that you're literally teaching the theology of worship to students really uniquely equips you for the questions that keep coming up surrounding
Music Styles in Worship
00:06:34
Speaker
this. Because every Monday when I ask for questions, I have questions like, well, is it okay to listen to this band? Is it okay to listen to this song? Like what about this word in this song? What about contemporary songs versus hymns?
00:06:47
Speaker
How do we discern through that? And that's actually, for those of you coming in, that's how this interview ended up happening because I was just like, I don't know where they'll look for this anymore. So I messaged Alana and was like, do you have any books on this? And she gave me this stack of books and all this information. And I was like, okay, let's just have you talk. So one of the things that you mentioned, and this is what got me super excited because of my love of church history.
00:07:14
Speaker
was that there's been a debate about the theology of worship music pretty much forever? Forever. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, stop me if I'm getting too in-depth. Like literally just go, uh-uh, okay, too much music because I, you know, obviously love this topic. So before we even think about like hymns versus contemporary, like you said, we got to go back and see what has happened historically. So when I start teaching intro to music history, we start in the Middle Ages.
00:07:44
Speaker
And, you know, that's 476. Our dates are 476 to 1450. And when the Catholic Church is predominant during that time period, and when we look at the type of music that's being sung in the church services and the goal of those services, it's monophonic, which is a single melody. That would be all of us singing in unison, but it's not congregational.
00:08:09
Speaker
And so it is a choir, you know, it's men or boys, women aren't allowed to sing in church yet. And it's monophonic chant. And what's interesting is the goal of so much of the Catholic service was to point you have in words, you know, the cathedrals, the stained glass, everything was to point you towards God. And so they wanted it to be clear.
00:08:34
Speaker
And so monophonic chant is the clearest way because you can hear the words. The problem is that the people didn't understand because it was being sung in Latin. And so that nobody understood what was being sung. And it took hundreds of years for the music to become polyphonic and that means multiple melodies sung at the same time.
00:08:58
Speaker
And it can be so complex that you literally cannot understand a single word. And it, and it gets that way towards the end of the middle ages. And so the council of Trent's, when they get together, one of the things that they debate besides, you know, condemning the sale of indulgences and all of that is should polyphonic music even be allowed in the church service? They're saying this is too complex. It speaks to the mind, not to the.
00:09:26
Speaker
heart, like we need something that clearly projects the text. Again, it's a little bit lost because it's in Latin. They don't understand Latin, but their, their heart is kind of, we need to clearly project this. And so that debate was, was big. They allowed polyphonic music, but they decided that it had to be restrained. And so they're really working on pulling it back. Okay. So that's your little,
00:09:52
Speaker
middle ages. And then when we move forward and we look at, you know, the Protestant Reformation, there are kind of three giants of that, you know, Luther, Calvin, and his family that I would point to. I'm not like an expert at that. Someone just said a tricord was said to be of the devil. Yeah. So this is the time, a tritone, the distance. Someone knows what that is. It's a, it's a,
00:10:17
Speaker
If something wasn't pleasing, it was said to be from the devil. Oh, interesting. Yeah, because music was a gift from God, so everything had to be pleasing. And so they were very into pleasing intervals, pleasing distances or pleasing sounds. Anyway, so Luther and Calvin are really big fans of singing in the language of the people. So the vernacular. And they're also really into congregational singing. They differ a little bit on
00:10:47
Speaker
polyphony. And Luther is a really big fan of polyphonic music. He's just a fan of music period. If you get that from his work, he literally says in some of his works, if you are not moved by music, you must be a stump or a stone. Right? So sassy. He is so sassy. And I love this bagby says, you know, moving from talking about Luther's love of music and Calvin's cautious
00:11:15
Speaker
discussions about music and theology. It's kind of like moving from a messy room with lots of bright colors and all sorts of ideas and things to a room that is tastefully, discreetly, you know, maybe one of those all gray and white rooms.
00:11:29
Speaker
It's beautiful but it's muted. It's beautiful but it's muted, right. And so that's where they differ. So Luther would say, we want you to sing a hymn together. We want you to lift your voices and raise your voices because God created us to be emotional beings and music moves our emotions. And we want you to participate in the act of worshiping God. And then he would say, we want to then see the elaboration
00:11:57
Speaker
upon that more simple melody that we can all sing together. Inviting us to go deeper would be kind of like having the choir or the orchestra or the organist then play some sort of elaboration upon that choral, that hymn that we're singing together. And that was akin to him to the congregational reading of the scripture and then the pastor unpacking and adding to the scriptural reading.
00:12:26
Speaker
here is a way in which we can view this and helping to just understand it better and then to go deeper to unpack the beauty of the text, to unpack the beauty of the music. If that makes sense. Yeah. So that's like the reformation. So things are changing a little bit there. How about as we get into like 1700s, 1800s, the Puritans, was there any, as we're getting towards like America,
00:12:53
Speaker
and women's christianities moving into america was there i mean i'm sure there were more shifts in the understandings at that point yeah i'm less familiar with like early american church music history they would have been heavily influenced probably by calvin and by singley i'm assuming you would probably know more about that than i
00:13:17
Speaker
But for example, Spingley, if they were influenced by him, he said that there should not be music in the church at all. Yeah, so his interpretation of the Bible was that worship should be a private and internal affair, something that you actually don't
00:13:36
Speaker
do communally, that it had no place in the church service. So it really depends on what tradition you're following. And then people, they follow whoever it is that they're with, right? Luther, Calvin, Bingley, et cetera. And I'm trying to think, they would insert popular songs as well. And that's something that's not talked about a lot or people refute that. They're like, oh, absolutely not. Old hymns are pure.
00:14:04
Speaker
That's not true. When, when in reality, you'll see that some of Luther's most famous hymns are actually taken from popular melodies. And so they're trying to incorporate something that people can sing together. So that's probably what you would find in the early American church as well. Again, that's not kind of my wheelhouse, but yeah, that has continued. You know, that, that discussion, should we have it in church? How much should we have it? Should we have it more elaborate? Who should be singing it more elaborately?
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So going back to like the heart of all this, you've like consistently touched on what the point of it is and how, how Luther saw it.
Music as Evangelism and Unity
00:14:40
Speaker
He loved music, but he clearly also saw that it had a really important purpose.
00:14:44
Speaker
in the church. And you mentioned in your notes that music has a lot of unique abilities that words alone do not, including evangelism, unity, and understanding the scriptures. Can you talk about that? Yeah, so one of the things that actually all the students who go through Wheaton College, they have to take this introduction to music. And I don't teach every single section, but every single section has to write this theology of the art paper.
00:15:14
Speaker
And one of the things that we talk about is, and really they have to dial down into is how do music and theology interact? And I've highlighted a couple that you mentioned, like music is an amazing vehicle for evangelism that has the ability to cross cultural, political, and religious barriers. You know, you can make music with people that you disagree with, that you might not sit down at a table and converse with.
00:15:40
Speaker
But if you make music with them, suddenly have common ground. You know, it's just a unifying experience. When we take a look at David O. Taylor and and Begbie, Jeremy Begbie, they are both leaders in theology of music. And they would agree that one of the main beautiful elements of music and the body of Christ is the unification.
00:16:03
Speaker
That we have singing together, so we're making music together. And so there are a couple of organizations, couple of groups, like the West Eastern to ban orchestra, which is made up of Middle Eastern musicians.
00:16:18
Speaker
Oh, Muslim, Jewish. And, you know, it's just trying to make music together with people that you don't politically or religiously agree with and understanding that you will continue to disagree, but you can have those conversations without pulling up the knives, as Daniel Barenbois says.
00:16:36
Speaker
So there's that element, music as a powerful vehicle for evangelism. And then I know this is going to get some people because Tasha Cobbs, I love Tasha Cobbs, first of all. So Tasha Cobbs came out with a song and she had a featured rapper on there. I don't know if anyone knows what this is. They could probably shout it out in the comments that they do, but it was none other than Nicki Minaj.
00:17:03
Speaker
Okay. Interesting choice. You can imagine the backlash from that. Yeah. Right. And so my question is for people, and I can't answer all these questions and I just want people to dig deeper, really, right? I don't want it to be a him versus contemporary. I want it to be a him and contemporary, a conversation, right? Yeah.
00:17:26
Speaker
My question is, when this came out, Nicki Minaj posted it on her Instagram, says, you all might not know this, but gospel music is my favorite type of music to listen to. It makes me feel closer to God, whatnot. And millions, literally millions of people who follow her on Instagram.
00:17:44
Speaker
suddenly have the link to Tasha Cobb's music. They have the link to gospel music. And so was that a powerful vehicle for evangelism? Maybe not the way that we would have all planned. And many people might still think that she doesn't belong.
00:18:01
Speaker
But it's just an interesting conversation and something that we should, we should kind of look into. And then finally, music. One of the unique things I love about music is that it can actually help us to understand some really deep theological quandaries that are really hard to explain with just words. And there are a few that stand out to me. Dr. Jeremy Begbe has a beautiful example of the Trinity.
00:18:32
Speaker
And the Trinity is complex. As you know, unpacking it with just words is difficult. And he says, but music can step into that space. And here's how, if you imagine, or you have a piano, you sit down and you play the note, you play the note C. That note has a unique sound, unique quality all its own. It fills the space on its own.
00:18:59
Speaker
Then we add another note to it. We add the note E. That note has its own unique quality. Playing it at the same time as C does not do away with C's unique quality. But together, they still, they fill the same space. They occupy the same space.
00:19:18
Speaker
They work sonorously. That means they're compatible. They make new sounds together without losing their own unique identities. And then you add one more note, you add G and you have a harmony, you have a chord. And that's a beautiful way to think about the Trinity.
00:19:34
Speaker
I love that we just did Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Raves in January, so I know all those who read that book will just resonate so much with that description. I've literally never heard that description. That is phenomenal. It's amazing. I love it. Okay, I have a lot more I'd like to talk about there, but I'm having to like
00:19:58
Speaker
restrained all my questions. Okay, so I'm thinking in terms of what people are asking. And you brought up a couple things that I know our people are running into in their churches and with their families. Number one is
00:20:17
Speaker
Hymns versus rock bands. We're introducing the rock elements. My first thought goes to like the secret church that started in the 80s and that restructuring. And I think I saw a lot of like the backlash right around that time to what they perceived as the theology behind it changing to adapt to the culture. But is there a different way to think about that?
00:20:45
Speaker
Absolutely. And there's a couple of things I want to point out. Try and get me back to the Getty article, if I forget, by the way. Okay. But before we even get into that, I had a note and I wanted to say this before we kind of move into this hymns versus rock bands.
00:21:01
Speaker
My question is, are you, and this isn't judgmental. This is just, this is something I'm asking myself too, because I have kind of run the whole gamut between being super judgmental from what I see and what I hear. They move too much. They move not enough. They, you know, there's too much fog. There's not enough fog. You know, you get the idea. But my question is, are you as concerned with preparing your heart and prioritizing worship in your life?
00:21:29
Speaker
as you are with parsing the text and judging the worship leaders movement and judging the instruments that are on the stage and judging the background. And what if we spent more time, as it says in Come Now Found, that beautiful hymn, tuning our hearts to sing His praise? What if we spent more time tuning our hearts to sing His praise and less time worrying about if the style was something that we liked? That's a word right there. Right?
00:21:59
Speaker
I know. And if we were so focused on worshiping God, could we not step into any type of service and then sing a song of praise? That would be my heart. My heart would be that I would be so tuned to worshiping God that I could walk into a traditional service and I could sing a hymn where nobody is moving and there's an organ playing and I could commune with God. I could worship God and I could praise God.
00:22:28
Speaker
Could I then also walk into a Pentecostal service and do the same?
00:22:33
Speaker
Could I walk into, you know, a concert and do the same because, you know, in the 17 and 1800s in Europe or 16 to 16 to 1700s in Europe, public concerts weren't a thing. And so what you did, it wasn't a moneymaker. So the people, the composers were either performing for aristocrat and the nobility, or they were performing in the church. And so you were literally going to church to hear your concert and what
00:23:02
Speaker
What a more beautiful place. Is there a more beautiful place than the church to go hear that beautiful creativity? Because of course, the first thing that we know about God is that God created and we were created in God's image. And if we look back, that should be significant. How are we being creative? How are we using the creativity that he's given us?
00:23:25
Speaker
to glorify him because really that's why he did that. So that would be my precursor to all of that. Not so much hymns or, and an argument, but rather hymns and because there is beautiful diversity in the church. And there has never been agreement in the church history over what the Bible says about how we should worship in a church service. And there's really not even a New Testament precedent for what that should look like.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point. Okay, so all of that to say, then what is it? Concerts aren't anything new. So when we think about health on concerts, when we think about all of that, you know, some people have a big issue, you know, like it is a concert. And again, that's not new. So look at the church history there. Look into that a little bit more.
00:24:11
Speaker
and recognize too that the music is being made to glorify God. What is our opposition as well? Like that would be some questions. I can't, again, I can't answer these questions for you. What is the reason for your opposition to the rock band? What is your reason for the opposition to the hymn? Be mindful of the fact that hymns were written to unite the congregation to sing. Like that was the purpose of the hymn. It emerged out of the Catholic tradition
00:24:38
Speaker
as something that the congregation could do and participate in together in this style. Remember I said that Luther was using some of those pop tunes? Yeah. That's key. He's writing it in the style of the people. And so we have to recognize that the style of the people changed at a slower rate. In the Middle Ages, it was grueling. There's a thousand years of music, and I wrap it up in a day. No, not really, but you know.
00:25:06
Speaker
But this idea that it is supposed to be something, if we believe that the hymn is where it's at, recognizing that the birth of the hymn was really from the need for the congregation to sing in the style of the people. And if the rock band has been participating in that.
00:25:23
Speaker
So do you know, was there pushback at the launch, like at the advent of these hymns, kind of like there's pushback today, or was that kind of just like a slow process? I don't know about that in particular. I mean, I guess, yes, there was pushback. If you look at Bingley and Calvin and Luther, you know, in the three figures in that Reformation process. Yeah, obviously there absolutely was pushback. You know, it doesn't belong.
00:25:53
Speaker
At all. Yeah, we shouldn't bother singing in the binocular at all. Which is in a way, I think it's encouraging for us today because, you know, Nathan, who I know you follow, he calls it chronological snobbery where you believe that.
00:26:11
Speaker
you know, you know better because you're in this day and age versus being in another day and age. And I think it can also apply to where we have this like chronological martyrdom in a way where it's like, we have it so much worse. Like everything's terrible. The church has never faced these things before. But when you look at church history, you see like, actually, no, we have gone through this before. It just looked a little bit different.
00:26:36
Speaker
at that time. So I did want to touch on one thing with the hymns and the rock band that you brought up that I thought was fascinating, did not know the connection to blues.
Blues Influence on Worship Music
00:26:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Can you talk about that? Yeah. So actually, this week is a heavy week for me in teaching because I teach on music in the midst of oppression.
00:26:59
Speaker
and music in the midst of suffering. So we cover music in the Holocaust and we cover African-American musical styles from the spiritual to blues and jazz and rock and roll. And something that we touched on today actually was blues and jazz and how the pushback was huge because this was a threat to the spiritual, mental and moral fiber. And a lot of that was rooted in racism.
00:27:29
Speaker
And so there's a huge appetite to consume this music after a while, but then not to hear it in the church service. And there was something I read recently that said that blues, the infusion of kind of blues style into worship music, especially when we saw it like in the sixties and seventies with rock and roll music, because blues influenced rock and roll was, I don't know, we, there was a, there's a big pushback, but it entered
00:27:57
Speaker
it brought us some minor keys and it brought us some songs of lament and some sadness. Can we think about blues? We think about that. And it's really important to note that we shouldn't just be singing songs that are happy and we shouldn't just be singing songs that are sad. That if we look at the Psalms as kind of a, an example of what we should be singing, that it kind of, it goes all over the place.
00:28:22
Speaker
We have songs of lament, we have songs of triumph, we have songs of joy and sadness and being upset and whatnot. So I don't know, does that answer your question? Yeah, I think that gives people a little bit more idea of how it is and has influenced both the worship experience and
00:28:41
Speaker
Music in general, I think that we just we've talked a little bit about racism and Martin Luther King Day. We talked a little bit about that experience and tuning into the experience of African Americans. And I just think, oh, I would love.
00:28:58
Speaker
I'm so curious about that now, like what that looked like to have their stories in music influencing society. That's fascinating. Well, I think I also mentioned, you know, I had a student at one point who wrote, we have one of the professors at Wheaton, Dr. Johan Bass. He's a wealth of knowledge and he comes into every single class and he teaches for a whole week on music of other cultures. It's a really great opportunity for them to hear non-Western music because I teach a Western music history class.
00:29:29
Speaker
And from that, from that series of lecture in the theology of the arts paper, one of my students wrote that he realized that African drum beat pagan, he said, pagan African drum beat were used in modern worship music. And now he was going to be careful and listen to his modern worship music and make sure that they are not using these African drum beats.
00:29:55
Speaker
And I just was like, oh, oh no. I was on vacation as I'm reading and grading this. And I'm thinking, I feel like I need to call this student. I cannot have him leave this class and think that. And so I had a few issues with this train of thought. And first issue is something unredeemable.
00:30:20
Speaker
is something unredeemable. Do we listen to the teachings of perfect pastors? And this goes into the text as well. I think you've mentioned that you get questions like, what if I'm unsure about the teachings of this church, but their music is theologically sound and I love their music. Like if we were looking for music written by perfect people, we would always be looking. We would not read the Psalms. We would not read the Psalms.
00:30:43
Speaker
That's a great point, actually. You would not even be able to sing the scriptures if we were looking for something that's made by a perfect person. We're singing to a perfect God. We're not perfect people.
00:30:57
Speaker
And we're not singing music of perfect people. So that was my first issue. Let's say that you have a pastor who's in his 30s, and he's a phenomenal pastor and has an amazing testability. But in his 20s, he used his words for bad. He used his life for evil. God is redeemable by God. And so is the music. And if we think about African tribal drumming,
00:31:24
Speaker
And we think about that, you know, how powerful is it that those drumbeats that were once used to worship a false God, they go, these drumbeats are no longer meant for you. They are meant for God. That really, like, gives me chills. Right? I know. Me too. It's this idea that this is beyond redeemable. This is a powerful statement of who they are now worshipping, you know?
00:31:54
Speaker
You know, that was kind of my takeaway. I was like, tragically typing to this student and hoping, please, I literally said, do not walk away from this class feeling this way. I pray that you will dig deeper into this. So anyway, so that's a little bit about the redeemability of rock and roll music, blues and jazz, and something that was maybe at one point even used for evil. Can it be turned around and used for good?
00:32:26
Speaker
March 18th through 21st. Mark your calendars, you guys. The Theology pop-up shop is back. We only open the shop four times a year and you get to pre-order all of our amazing theology and discipleship related products.
00:32:44
Speaker
This year's shop, the first shop, is March 18th through 21st. You'll jump on the website FeliciaMasonHeimer.com when we release all these products and place your order. About four weeks later, once we get them all in, we will ship them out to you.
00:33:02
Speaker
So it's a little bit different than your standard shop. It's not like Amazon, but it allows us to not hold stock in a warehouse. We're so stoked for what we have coming this time. T-shirts, zip ups, hoodies, maybe even a little onesie in our Raising Tiny Disciples line, plus a new ebook on Easter, the history of the holiday and how to celebrate it and so much more. I hope you'll join us March 18th through 21st.
00:33:29
Speaker
Watch your email if you are in my newsletter community. You'll be the first to get notified when we open the shop. Otherwise, you can watch Instagram and Facebook and hop on the website during those dates to place your order. We're so excited to get these products in your hands.
00:33:47
Speaker
It kind of makes me think of the food sacrifice to idols kind of scenario. Yes, I always think of that. Yeah. Because I know when I've had this conversation, some people, there are people who, and maybe you can speak to this, but hold to what's called the regulatory principle of worship, common in more reformed circles.
00:34:05
Speaker
where God has decided how he should be worshipped and that is exactly how and therefore if it falls outside of those parameters then it is inappropriate worship like strange fire if you will offering a wrong sacrifice of praise and it is unacceptable to the Lord.
00:34:24
Speaker
However, I think that the Psalms, as your example, gives us a pretty distinct picture of worship. And we see that these are Psalms of Asaph, right? And these are publicly performed musical pieces. Some of them, it doesn't sound super appropriate, what's being said or wished. And of course, we're talking David's Psalms, his life and how he lived and had to repent and to be restored.
00:34:54
Speaker
So I think there is, of course, those who follow the regulatory principle of worship, I respect, and that is totally respectable way to go about your Christian life. But I think there has to also be a respect for the theological and biblical basis for a freedom of worship as well that we see in more charismatic churches. So Alana and I grew up in the same church, at least for a period of time, which was a charismatic church.
00:35:22
Speaker
Um, so, yeah, little, little tiny 10 year old holy rollers. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Those are some fun days. Um, but, you know, I think there is a.
00:35:38
Speaker
There's like you said you worked in a liturgical church, right, and then ended up attending a church that is more free in how they worship and, and having an honor and a respect for both of those things that God.
00:35:53
Speaker
I think of when Jesus said to the woman at the well that the true worshipers will worship in spirit and in truth. So like you were saying earlier, what is going on in your heart? What's the posture of worship in your heart towards the Lord? Because I think it's a really, really hefty thing to say, to say that, oh, there's millions of people in these more charismatic churches or liturgical churches and their worship doesn't count because it doesn't look the way I think it should. It's very myopic.
00:36:23
Speaker
I hope that's not a bad thing to say, but it can be, it can be very, it can be very culturally closed off. This is the way I do things. This is how I interpret scripture. And again, we really have to be willing to step outside of ourselves.
00:36:40
Speaker
to step outside of how we were raised, the culture that we were in, the denomination we were in and say, you know what? When I look around and I had this conversation with my son, he was talking about the different types of trees. And we were celebrating the differences between the oak tree and the pine tree and how the wind sounds different between each one and how they look different. One loses their leaves, one doesn't. And we talked about how that's really the beauty of God's creation in people.
00:37:09
Speaker
And how we are created differently. Your heart song is going to sound different in mind when we cry out to God. And there is beauty in that. And I agree, I agree that there is absolute beauty in those types of services. And that could be the best way for you to worship God without distraction.
00:37:29
Speaker
And that could absolutely be the best way. We just have to be really careful to recognize our own cultural glasses. Like what are we looking through? And a perfect example of this, I remember there's a book, I'm going to put it up here, Glimpses of a New Creation. And it really celebrates the differences that are found in all of these services. Like there is a place for all of this. Hymns and, right? This and that.
00:37:57
Speaker
We don't see God wanting to create all of us the same. And I love there's this idea that God is looking for material that can be developed and that's you, you know, like, and then we think about it musically, he's looking for generative material and he's not giving us a, he's got a form that he pours us into and then allows us to flourish and enables us to flourish out of that or within that, right? It's just this idea that Hindi music, when you hear brass, you,
00:38:26
Speaker
you know there's a villain. In Hollywood, brass, Indiana Jones, right? We've got a hero coming. Okay, so those cultural differences are ingrained. Our tuning systems are different. How we express ourselves culturally is different. And, you know, there's a big study on ethnomusicology and going in as missionaries and trying to write music, listen first, what's the music of the people?
00:38:54
Speaker
If we agree with Luther and Calvin that we should be singing in the language of the people, kind of in the style of the people, then we shouldn't necessarily be bringing our hymns and our spiritual songs, but to come and say, what is your song? What is your music? And now let us write music in your style so that you can worship God where you are at.
00:39:19
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Reminds me of something I had learned about just art in general, that oftentimes culture, when they would talk about Christian stories or to talk about the biblical accounts, they would present it as the image. They recognize it looked like themselves because that helped them to connect with the story. I just love that. That's phenomenal and just a great way to see
00:39:45
Speaker
that it's not so much to be threatened by a specific beat or mode of music, not just is it redeemable, but it's also evangelistic and a reflection of a culture. A beautiful picture of the diversity of God's creation. That's how I hope that people can walk away from this with. And again, I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying myopic, but just this idea that again, we have to look at the diversity in God's creation,
00:40:12
Speaker
and to be willing to think about that musically as well. And remember that beauty is cultural. Okay, really quick, I want to ask you about, it's kind of like a total
00:40:24
Speaker
like segue, not gracefully, is the talking about self-focused worship, which is often a
Focus of Worship Songs: Personal vs God's Attributes
00:40:35
Speaker
big question. It seems like this worship song is talking a lot about me or it's using a lot of me pronouns versus talking about God. How can we think through that?
00:40:47
Speaker
Yeah. And I think I wrote in my notes, when I, when I hear that question, I automatically think of that country song. Want to talk about me. You want to talk about, ah, I want to talk about no one on my knee back. Yes. I got that reference. I was like, I knew you would appreciate this again. Okay. So, and I, I actually thought about your book, Stop Calling Me Beautiful, because something that I was kind of, I'm so glad you wrote that because I feel like it fills this, this really, this big gap.
00:41:16
Speaker
Right? In this language that's turned towards us a little too much. And it's okay to hear who we are in God, but we also need to know who he is. And so that's true for worship as well. There is biblical precedent for bringing songs about your trials, about your emotions, about your heartaches, about your triumph to God.
00:41:40
Speaker
However, we have to understand that that's not all we can focus on. If we want a true biblical example, you know, looking at, for example, the Psalms, because that's historically what we've gone to for singing for centuries. If we want a true image of what the Psalms are, they are not just about
00:42:01
Speaker
David, they are not just about the singer. They have to come back to God and they do. And I love this. We had a pastor from a new church in Chicago, Pastor Greg Armstrong. He came and spoke at our church a couple of weeks back. And I loved what he had to say. He was talking about honest worship. And he said, David's masterclass in honest worship is one, and no one messed up. So there is a little I in there, right? Two, I know that God won't leave me. Now we're getting into the character of God.
00:42:31
Speaker
God won't leave me. He won't leave me. Three, God's going to respond.
00:42:38
Speaker
I am confident God is going to respond. And so I love that as kind of this overall picture, this idea that again, it's okay for us to sing songs that have kind of a little bit more of those I pronouns, but that can't be the full picture. That's not the full picture of what we see in scripture. So, so be careful of a church service or like a worship service that is too focused on just one aspect of that worship service with, you know, all about I all about
00:43:06
Speaker
happiness and happy song or even all about lament there's a place for all of that scripturally and i also really love if you're looking for something or someone to listen to that would be more devotional because i actually
00:43:23
Speaker
I, I don't love the eye focused songs myself. Um, I don't want to be drawn to, to those songs, you know, like I want to be told and reminded who God is. That's why, you know, I journal and I look back at journals because I forget. I forget that God is the God who got me through this and the God who got me through that. And it's, I'm so quick to forget. So I need reminders.
00:43:48
Speaker
And so I prefer those kinds of songs myself. You are this God, you are this. You have said that you will walk me through. You will be there with me. So I love that. And instead of the eye focused songs, I've seen this new kind of somewhat new, but it's gaining popularity type of writing. And it's called John Guerra. I don't know if anyone's a fan of John Guerra. I am. He spoke in one of my classes and he's just phenomenal. And, and he calls it devotional writing.
00:44:18
Speaker
And I love that because God doesn't want you nor expect you to come to him with a cleaned up version of you. He knows that. He wants you where you're at. He wants your honest worship in the valley, in the mountain top. We have to be free enough to approach God wherever we are. And what I love about this devotional writing is it allows us to question anything. I wrote down the lyrics because sometimes I forget lyrics. I don't know why I'm a singer. I should remember the lyrics.
00:44:47
Speaker
And the opening line of his song, Citizen, says, I have a heart full of questions. I'm coming to you because, and then the chorus, I'm coming to you because I'm confused. I'm coming to you weeping and wailing, but you won't let me go. And so devotional writing, I think if you're looking for something, you know, different, if you're looking for something, I would lean into this devotional writing and maybe even participate in that act of creation yourself.
00:45:13
Speaker
of writing some lines, some verse, some verses that would be devotional. And it's extremely cathartic, allowing you to work through some things to ask God those questions because he's not afraid of those questions. And I think that's what you encourage your followers to do is to ask those questions, to lean in to those moments and to say, why am I feeling this way? What does God say? What has God done? What's the precedent? So that would be my
00:45:40
Speaker
I don't know, my long answer on eyes on.
Questions in Worship and Intellectual Exploration
00:45:44
Speaker
I love that though. I think that actually kind of brings us full circle and really makes a great connection because I think a lot of us are comfortable or getting comfortable with intellectually asking questions or like digging into our faith and finding out why we believe what we believe. But when it comes to worship, we maybe feel like it's too holy or separate.
00:46:06
Speaker
From the question asking like we're allowed to ask questions intellectually But we're not allowed to ask them in worship or to worship through our questions and I think you just made a really good case for the freedom to do that and that David did it and it is an act of devotion to God because you are bringing your whole self in everything that's in you to God and
00:46:33
Speaker
And that's just absolutely beautiful. It is a beautiful thing. Yeah, thank you. Okay, Alana, I could probably ask you like a bajillion more questions, but I know that your time is valuable and this runs up at an hour. So
00:46:50
Speaker
Where can people find you your music? Is that available to be followed? I know you also have a new account for your, this woman does like everything, you guys, like she's got a farm and kids, teaches music, makes soap, has a bajillion animals. It's yeah, she just does it all. So where can people find and follow you?
00:47:13
Speaker
Yeah, I'm a jack of all trades and a master of none. That's how I always have viewed myself. I'm like, I'm waiting for the ball to drop. I'm waiting for Wheaton to say, who, who is she? Why is she teaching here? What's going on? I'm just like waiting for someone to realize that I'm a fraud. That's how I feel. I'm like, you don't know how to do anything. Because I just do too much. And I've learned to embrace it. I am just eclectic. I just like to do a lot of different things. So
00:47:38
Speaker
I'm not really active online in terms of YouTube. You can find a few things. If you look at High Point Collective, I'm on a couple of the recordings there. I do sing most weekends. I'm leading, but I'm leading at one of our campuses that we don't record right now. And so you can sometimes find me singing online at highpoint.church, I think. And then find us on YouTube there, and you can listen to me sing if you want. And then I also have, like she said, a hickory grub.
00:48:08
Speaker
hickory.grove on Instagram, and we just started making soap. We're very new, we're very young at this. My mom made soaps back in the day, and Rita was kind of celebrating the life here on the farm and trying to get a favorite. It's your goat's milk. Well, not yet. So we're outsourcing now, because our girls were too little to breed this season, because they're baby. Well, they're pygmy goats, and so we have to wait until there are certain
00:48:35
Speaker
and wait and they just didn't hit that. So you can follow us there for like kind of our farm life. And then, you know, I'm not that interesting of a person. I just like post pictures of my animals and my- This is a lie, but fine. Whatever you want. You can find me on Instagram, Alana Joy Nelson there. And yeah, and if you ever, if you're a student or thinking about coming to Wheaton, you can always come to Wheaton and take one of my classes. Can people audit your classes or do they have to be enrolled?
00:49:05
Speaker
Do you know? Oh, I don't know. I know that you can audit a lot of things, but so maybe you might be able to audit. Yeah. You might be able to audit. I'm not sure. And especially with the fact that everything is, um, you know, I have to live stream all my classes now. Um, you could, I wonder if you could take a class. I don't know. Cause it's in undergrad. I'm not sure how that would work. Um, I know with grad school, it's a little bit more.
00:49:32
Speaker
you can audit classes a little bit easier, I think, without being part of the college, if that makes sense. Okay, good to know. Well, thank you for doing this. I so appreciate it. And it's so good talking to you. Thank you so much for having me.
00:49:46
Speaker
Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Verity. You can connect with fellow listeners by following me on Instagram at Felicia Masonheimer or on our Facebook page by the same name. Also visit FeliciaMasonheimer.com for links to each episode and the show notes.