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"If I can get sober, anyone can" | Don McLeese
15 Plays2 months ago
Don McLeese – a former University of Iowa professor - opened up about his struggles with alcoholism in his latest book, Slippery Steps: Rolling & Tumbling Toward Sobriety (Ice Cube Press, 2022). His honest approach will resonate with our listeners. Sometimes, sobriety and talks about it in the media can feel very out of reach.
Before Don entered the classroom, he worked as a professional journalist and popular music critic for the Chicago Sun-Times, Austin American-Statesman, and was a columnist and critic for Rolling Stone. He’s interviewed artists from Bob Dylan to Celine Dion.
A native Chicagoan who lives in West Des Moines, Iowa, he continues to follow the Chicago Cubs more avidly than anyone who isn’t paid to do so.
Get ready for a candid conversation about the realities of life after getting sober — and what advice Don has for someone who’s questioning their relationship with alcohol.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Hope Mindset Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Drinking for a long time just hasn't been on my mind at all. It's a different way of life. It's a different way of approaching life. ah And drinking is a very small part of that.
00:00:12
Speaker
Well, and I'm sure you never thought that you would get to that point. So it's really beautiful to hear that you have. It's a point I never wanted to get to. Everything that AA was selling was, I'm not buying, man. I don't want any of this.
00:00:29
Speaker
Bye.
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome to the Hope Mindset Podcast. I'm Mikayla Hugh Shaw, and 10 years ago, i started a movement called How About Hope, and the HOPE stands for Helping Others and Providing Encouragement.
00:00:50
Speaker
Our goal is to challenge negative beliefs and experiences, and to break stigmas about what goes on in our minds, and to live in the sunshine, especially after overcoming dark times.
00:01:04
Speaker
The Hope Mindset Podcast is all about telling stories of struggle turned strength.
00:01:11
Speaker
Hey guys, I am so hyped to bring you this story today. First and foremost, thank you so much for listening to the very first episode of the Hope Mindset Podcast.
00:01:24
Speaker
Woo! It's just me and Rico in here, but hey, we are celebrating. This is a project that has been in my heart and on my mind for years. And so I'm so excited to finally put this out into the world. And as long as I get a chance to help one person, this will all be worth it. So Thank you all so much for just being here. It means the world to me.
00:01:50
Speaker
And like I said, I'm so hyped to bring you this story today because today are talking with Don McLeese.
Meet Don McLeese: From Professor to Author
00:01:56
Speaker
And Don McLeese is a former professor of mine who actually opened up about his struggles with alcoholism in his latest book, called Slippery Steps Rolling and Tumbling Toward Sobriety. I just love the name of this book because I feel like that really explains kind of what it can be like when you are first reaching out for help after maybe hitting rock bottom. And you're going to hear more about that here in just a little bit.
00:02:24
Speaker
But His honest approach, it really drew me in, and i think it is something that will really resonate with our listeners, because it's it's truly a no-nonsense approach.
00:02:35
Speaker
I feel like sometimes... When we hear folks talk about their struggles and specifically sobriety, it can feel kind of out of touch, maybe in the media and the way that it can be portrayed.
00:02:47
Speaker
But this is just real, raw and honest. So I'm very excited for you all to hear what Don has to say.
Journalism Journey: From Newsrooms to Celebrities
00:02:56
Speaker
But before Don entered the classroom, he actually worked as a professional journalist and he was a popular music critic for Get this, the Chicago Sun-Times, the Austin American Statesman, and he was also a columnist and a critic for the Rolling Stone. How cool is that?
00:03:15
Speaker
He has interviewed artists from Bob Dylan to Celine Dion. And unfortunately, he is a huge Chicago Cubs fan. This is one thing that we always kind of had some friendly beef about because i am a diehard Cards fan.
00:03:31
Speaker
So you'll hear some of that banter in here as well. But Don now is enjoying retirement and he lives in West Des Moines with his wife, Marie, and he loves having grandbabies and spending time with them.
00:03:45
Speaker
And like I said, he really does love the Cubs. He says that he follows them more avidly than anyone who probably is paid to do so. So we love that so much.
00:03:55
Speaker
Now let's get ready for a very candid conversation about the realities of life after getting sober and what advice Don has for someone who is questioning their relationship with alcohol.
Writing 'Slippery Steps': A Pandemic Project
00:04:10
Speaker
So
00:04:19
Speaker
So we're talking today about slippery steps rolling and tumbling towards sobriety. This is a book that you, Don, put out about a year and a half ago. And what I think I love the most about it was just how honest it was. Like, this is probably the most candid version of somebody's sobriety journey that I've read before.
00:04:48
Speaker
And i just want you to kind of talk me through the process of writing this book and what that was like. How long does it take you to write a book actually? Uh, you know, I, I'd say one could write a book in a year or a year and a half, but I probably rewrote this book for five years. Uh, and i ah You know, also, we had COVID in the middle of all this. The book was begun well before COVID. It wasn't published until after COVID. A lot of things shut down during then.
00:05:24
Speaker
And I had a lot more time on my hands. um And in some ways, the story shifted in the way, in a similar fashion to everybody else's story shifted. You know, when we all went inside or online or in isolation or whatever we did.
00:05:41
Speaker
So if it took longer than than I had anticipated, but I'm glad for all the extra time. i mean, i you know I wasn't getting paid by the hour on this or anything, you know so it was just...
00:05:57
Speaker
And I think every pass-through made it a better book. you know if i' i I could probably take another run through and make it an even better book. but' ah and i like They always say that you know think things ambitious pieces of writing are never finished. They're just due. You just have to turn them over. At some point, you have to say that's it.
00:06:20
Speaker
I was five or six years earlier in my sobriety when I started it than when I finished it. And so i I probably felt at a different place in my recovery. ah i think I'm still learning all the time. You know, I mean, it's it's it's
Exploring Alcoholism: Collapse, Roots, and Recovery
00:06:38
Speaker
it's a work in progress. But ah yeah, the the having that having the extra time is good.
00:06:44
Speaker
but Well, good. Good. I like what you said. It's just due. Like, an ambitious piece of writing is just due. And I'm sure it's hard to narrow it down when it's your life as well. I mean, I know you're used to writing long-form pieces about music and different things too, but when it's your life, having to narrow down what goes in, I'm sure that was difficult.
00:07:09
Speaker
It was very difficult. I mean, there were there were some things that I had to make sure that that the structure worked. um I knew that I wanted to start out right in the middle of it the collapse, you know, the most dramatic part, that. And so, have that as being kind of the opening.
00:07:34
Speaker
and hope to hook the reader through what happened in and the aftermath of that, because that to me is, you know, it's it's the most enriching, ah compelling part of the story.
00:07:48
Speaker
ah But then, you know, for any for anybody who goes through this sort of recovery, ah there's a process by which you go all the way back and try to figure out well, how did I get here? You know, what was it was was Was alcoholism a matter of taking the first drink when I was 13, or was it something that started long earlier? And, you know, how could I have been in denial or defensive about this for so long? It starts out pretty fixed on you know a pretty dramatic part of my life. And that was really helpful because I'm i'm trying to connect a lot of dots in there where I haven't thought about any of those dots or maybe known that many of them were there.
00:08:35
Speaker
ah also And you'll understand when you get older. but there are there when As an older person, there are there are times of your younger life that almost seemed like they happened to a different person, you know, because you are not the same person you you are wouldn when you were living that.
00:08:53
Speaker
ah So I have to recreate all that, you know, and kind of like, what was I thinking? Or how did this lead to that? And all that. And chronology is a big help because if you can make this work chronologically, your structure is there.
00:09:08
Speaker
ah once you start with the chronological, you know, this and then this and then this, as long as you can hold a reader's attention, the story tells itself. And it's just a question of how you break it up into chapters.
00:09:19
Speaker
ah And I didn't have any sort of outline or whatever. I don't work like that. I work progressively and intuitively. I just, you know, when it felt like a chapter was done, the chapter was done, and then it's out of the next. And what does that chapter entail?
Balancing Personal Stories with Privacy
00:09:33
Speaker
You know, it's a... And so I make it through pretty much all of that ah and the most difficult part of that, trying to decide. i mean, this was, it's totally my story.
00:09:47
Speaker
It's how I remember it. It's things that happened to me, but nobody lives in a vacuum. So things that I'm writing about include and impact other people,
00:09:59
Speaker
who may or may not remember things the same and who may or may not want their stories told. you know So you you kind of have to strike a a delicate balance there.
00:10:13
Speaker
And then the last part of the book, which is kind of, you know, the closest i come to self-help, right, is just letting people know exactly what goes on in 12-step program. Because, you know, like I say in the book, I had no idea. i knew people who were in it, but they didn't talk about it.
00:10:31
Speaker
you know, it was kind of those who know don't tell, those who tell don't know. And and i I knew it had something to do with God ah in whom I did not believe. And I knew that it meant that you had to quit drinking entirely, which I was by no means intending to do.
00:10:49
Speaker
So I wasn't the best candidate for us for for this kind of life change. But I think, you know, and there are different people. i have a pretty broad readership.
00:11:02
Speaker
And a lot of it's, you know, from Chicago, where my profile was higher than it's ever been in Iowa. And where people, you know, might have been interested in just, you know, something that I wrote and something that would include newspapers where they had read me and things like that. So some people were interested in the journalism part of the story.
00:11:24
Speaker
Other people who you know might have had similar issues with drinking or knew somebody who had similar issues with drinking, um you know they were interested in that part. What is this 12-step thing really like? Would it work for me? Why did it work for you?
00:11:40
Speaker
And I got a lot of people, you know from people who know me well, who said you know who were very surprised by the book because they said, you know I just had had no idea you had any sort of drinking problem.
00:11:52
Speaker
I was not the ah the flamboyant, boisterous, out of control sort of drunk. I was i think I described myself in the book as an antisocial drinker, and I kind of used it to ah you know just just shut myself off. so So a lot of it was a was kind of a closeted existence.
00:12:20
Speaker
Right. And the way that we met too, you were my professor and i had no idea Kayla, I will always be your professor. Well, always.
00:12:31
Speaker
Absolutely. Right. But I mean, i had absolutely no idea. And so I was like, wow. Oh my gosh. you You had a great time. And i love that for you.
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah, and and you know some people some people go into this and they say, ah if I'd only known earlier if I could have given up drinking when I was 15 or 20 or whatever, I would go to meetings in around Iowa City and I'd be amazed how some of those kids could determine already that they were problem drinkers. I mean, to me, what they were describing is the way college kids drink. I mean, that's just, how do you know that's an issue?
00:13:12
Speaker
Mm-hmm. i you know I didn't think i was living a bad life. And I enjoyed the life I was living. And I didn't have my last drink until I was 59 years old.
00:13:23
Speaker
So that makes me a late bloomer as far as and know recovery candidates go. to But yeah, once I was done, I was done.
00:13:34
Speaker
it was only after the fact. It was only after getting... Sober and seeing how different this felt and how the things I'd thought i was using to manage my life, I would drink in order to go to sleep so I could get up, you know, and just just get the whole thing going again I was pretty high achieving, you know, professionally or whatever else. I did a lot of stuff. ah And once I realized that I no longer needed to do that, that I could sleep better without the stuff that I thought I needed get to sleep, you know, it was it was a revelation.
00:14:12
Speaker
i ah I discovered a whole lot ah in the sobriety that I, you know, I thought i would just drink to the end of my life. Yeah.
00:14:23
Speaker
yeah Well, and you were 59 when you took your last drink. How old are you now? I am 74. Oh, wow. Okay. I'm really bad at math. I think that's 15 years, though. That is 15 years. Okay, awesome. That's why you were a journalism major. Journalism majors can't do the math. i Listen, i know my strengths.
00:14:45
Speaker
You're Math has just never been one of them. i will pull out a calculator and a heartbeat. And so I'm glad. Okay, 15 years. But like you said, you were five yeah or you are five years further into your sobriety journey now too.
00:15:03
Speaker
What is life like now? What does that look like now, would you say? Because like you said, you're still learning different things as you go about this journey. And i feel like at least what I've heard from others who have been on a recovery journey, it's kind of a lifelong journey.
00:15:22
Speaker
journey do you feel like journey oh that's also you know it's almost like you have a little tunnel vision it really is a one day at a time journey and to me the one day at a time particularly early on it was almost like a get out of jail free card you know it wasn't like i'm planning on doing this for the rest of my life but today i don't feel like drinking you know and if three weeks from now i feel like drinking i haven't committed myself to anything uh What I learned, what I continue to learn about myself ah over the course of this is what kind of drinker I was and why I could never
00:16:07
Speaker
be the type who would fool myself, oh, you know, I'll just go back and I'll i'll drink moderately or I'll drink occasionally. i'm I'm not that kind of drinker. I am an all or nothing sort of person, which doesn't mean that I would always drink to get drunk because I would. I would drink to go to sleep.
00:16:25
Speaker
ah But I would drink daily. I mean, it would be the focus of my day if I wasn't assured of having that ready access to alcohol at the end of the night.
00:16:40
Speaker
you know have to And so, you know, some people can fool themselves. or i pet fool so some people Some people can just say, I'm going to have a drink tonight.
00:16:51
Speaker
oh And then that's it, you know, it's just for tonight. What I know about myself is that if I choose to have a drink tonight, I am choosing to drink every day for the rest of my life. and Nothing stopped me, you know? So I can either live the way i am living right now, which is a really good way of living, or I can go back into that groundhog day sort of thing where I'm just kind of waiting until I can take the edge off with the evening drinking.
00:17:28
Speaker
ah And i knew from, you know, just from the way my drinking went that whether one thinks of of it as a disease or not, it is a progressive something.
00:17:40
Speaker
You end up drinking more and more to achieve the same effect. Different people have their own habits, their own limits, stuff like that. and And by the way, most of the people I know, they can drink fine. You know, they're not they're not obsessive the way i am. Anything that I do, I do habitually as a routine and likely to excess.
00:18:04
Speaker
but You're just an all-in. Other people, they can just take it or leave it. You know, my wife... When she drinks, she'll drink half a glass of wine and then just leave it. You know, I couldn't imagine doing that.
00:18:16
Speaker
I was the guy who at the end of the party, I'd be, you know, cleaning up by drinking whatever was in everybody else's glass after they'd left, you know, because I do i hate to see it go to waste. I'm a cheapskate. You know, I didn't want to see it go to waste.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yes. Understood. You wanted to save. I get it. Well, and, you know, ah what does life look like for you now versus what it looked like for you at the very beginning of the book?
Life Perspectives: Control and Possibilities
00:18:43
Speaker
I know you talked about this in the beginning where you kind of just throw ah readers into the peak, like the the climax. Well, not the climax of the story, but, I mean, like kind of like the biggest part of it, the the moment that really changed a lot of things for you.
00:19:01
Speaker
How does life look different now versus right at the beginning of everything? I have a whole different perspective and understanding of life.
00:19:14
Speaker
I mean, one day at a time extends to it sounds well beyond drinking. This too shall pass, sort of an acceptance, which doesn't mean that that I agree with everything or that I'm passive toward everything, but I have a real...
00:19:32
Speaker
understanding of what's within my control, what is not within my control. i was a tight grip on the steering wheel kind of guy. It wasn't that I had a five-year or a ten-year plan, but I knew pretty much every day how I wanted things to go, and i would get Nervous if they got knocked off course. You know, a bad class could rattle me, that sort of thing.
00:19:58
Speaker
You know, if I thought that I was deserving of some sort of assignment or promotion that went to somebody else, ah I would resent that.
00:20:09
Speaker
So I would have things mapped out the way they should be. I'm more open to possibility at this point than I ever was before. This is the hand we've been dealt. How are we going to play these cards?
00:20:23
Speaker
This is where i am right now, and one breath at a time, this is a pretty good life. And I think that I spent a lot of time worrying about it. You know, I tried to manage my sleep. I was afraid that if I didn't drink myself to sleep, that I couldn't, that I wouldn't fall asleep naturally, that I couldn't just let go and let this happen.
00:20:45
Speaker
Like, unless I set myself up for being in the perfect frame to be ready to write something that the writing wouldn't get done, that I had to over plan and over calculate and, and over worry a lot of stuff. I don't worry about nearly as much as, as I once did, you know, because, because it doesn't do any good.
00:21:11
Speaker
You know, I mean, 90% of the stuff you worry about never happens anyway. of And the other stuff, some of the stuff that, you know, it's like where the book opens. and and I think I say in the book someplace, thought this was the worst day of my life, ended up being one of the best days of my life.
00:21:28
Speaker
What I wanted for myself, it wasn't necessarily the best thing for myself. Some of the best, you know, some of the best career terms I had were jobs I didn't get because they left me open for other jobs for which I was better suited or me of my life. I mean, i I learned I'm not that smart to guide the whole thing. You know, I i can't, I don't have the master blue clearance.
00:21:57
Speaker
Drinking for a long time just hasn't been on my mind at all. It's a different way of life. It's a different way of approaching life. ah And drinking is a very small part of that.
00:22:08
Speaker
Well, and I'm sure you never thought that you would get to that point. So it's really beautiful to hear that you have. It's a point I never wanted to get to. Everything that AA was selling was, I'm not buying, man. I don't want any of this. you know yeah I used to run into this guy at a Sunday meeting who and who was similar in his resistance to the way I was.
00:22:34
Speaker
And he said, I caught alcoholism in AA, and that's how I feel, kind of like I caught, you know, I didn't have it when I went in, but once I got there, AA ruined drinking for me. yeah Once I could understand the reality of what I'd been going through. and Sober curious, that's a new term that I've seen popping up everywhere, whether it's at like local bars who are doing NA cocktails, NA beers.
00:23:03
Speaker
ah Some are doing more of a Cali sober kind of thing, too. How do you feel about kind of this new wave of sober curiosity?
00:23:14
Speaker
I think it's great that people do not feel like they have to get obliterated and spend all that money and stuff in order to have a good time. When I was young, people felt like they almost had to get paired up and whoever they were with in college was going to be, who they were going to marry, you know, right after college and their lives, you know, they would become adults. I mean, I think that I think that exploring different avenues and letting things unfold, i think that's wonderful.
00:23:46
Speaker
One of the things that that I think I've learned in inward recovery is not to be too judgmental about how other people live their lives. yeah I used to think I was a lot smarter. and cooler and better and hipper and edgier and all that than you know than a lot of other people. And now I just, you know I realize how much of a facade that was. If people want to explore ah you know for a month and if it works for a month, you know why not you know why not continue if if they feel like that?
00:24:26
Speaker
But again, other people don't have yeah the sort of repetitive issues that I have. They weren't deciding that, well, if I'm a drinker, I'm gonna drink every night, and it's gonna be more and more, and at the end of 10 years, it's gonna be more than is now.
00:24:42
Speaker
I'll tell you one thing I think's kinda funny, though. These is bars, the the bars that offer or specialize in non-alcoholic drinks and charge as much for them as they do for the ones with the expensive alcohol in them. You know, i mean, that to me is nuts because, again, I'm a cheapskate. Yes.
00:25:01
Speaker
No, absolutely. the The price difference is really not that... No kidding. At all. What I've noticed is i do actually feel significantly better. And I think it's really interesting to, even socially, it almost feels weird to not have that be centered around drinking.
00:25:23
Speaker
It really is just such a big part of...
Sobriety and Personality: Maintaining Identity
00:25:28
Speaker
I hate to say American culture, but you know what I mean? Like any sort of you get together. It definitely is. And you're being sold. You're being sold that by advertisers, by image makers, by, you know, that this is the good life. that And I'm not, like kid you know, I don't tell anybody else how how to live their life.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yeah. It's just, no, for me, it was it it was really illuminating to get past them, to recognize that there is a different life that I could be leading and the that I wouldn't lose a lot of the stuff that was really important to me about me, that I could but i could still have my dark sense of humor, that I could still be kind of edgy, that i you know I wasn't going to turn into...
00:26:20
Speaker
some sort of, you know, hippy-dippy singer-songwriter or something like that. You know, I've been filled with lollipops and rainbows and all that. You know, I mean, I so i still have kind of a, you know, I still have my way of looking at the world, but that hasn't changed. But that in terms of waking up with a clarity, getting a good night's sleep, having, you know, not being so concerned over everything that's that's going on
00:26:52
Speaker
We do what we can where we can. And a lot of the other stuff, we just recognize that this is out of our control. You just kind of get a ah sense of who you are internally rather than externally.
00:27:07
Speaker
evening And that's, I mean, goodness, that's a huge lesson to learn. One, I think I've had to learn in kind of a roundabout way just because of, like, my job for a year was to people please.
00:27:22
Speaker
And unlearning that and realizing that it, I feel like I always made it my business to know what people thought of me. And so unlearning that has been a really freeing, very freeing thing.
00:27:37
Speaker
I fortunately have never been accused of trying to be a people pleaser. You're like, I wish I just wasn't that way too. It would save me some money.
00:27:48
Speaker
In therapy, but you know, it's fine. it's It's totally fine. Well, another thing that I feel like and you talk about a lot in the book, ah really just the lifestyle that you were living as a music writer, going to shows, and you're kind of always indulging.
00:28:07
Speaker
me during those times, but it was for work. ah What has it been like showing up to shows and doing that job without those other stimulants?
00:28:21
Speaker
This is one thing that I hadn't anticipated, but everything that I enjoyed doing with alcohol, I enjoy more without alcohol.
00:28:34
Speaker
And that that, again, isn't something that i you know had ever anticipated. it was just It was part of the whole thing. You go to bar, you have a few drinks or a few shots or whatever, and it intensifies.
00:28:47
Speaker
ah I will stay, you know, now that it's ah somewhat legal in neighboring states and stuff, even though I don't indulge, but I do remember that there was a time when marijuana could make music sound different, you know, and you would have a different experience. The drugs can enhance that experience, but they never, you know, i that isn't something that I would do professionally because I wouldn't be able to write like that.
00:29:16
Speaker
No, that's so true. Yeah, but You know, well that now that I don't drink, I don't have to stand on those long bathroom lines anymore like I used to, you know, and I don't have to to spend those prices. and I don't have to spend all my time at the bar and ah I can kind of fight I. And, you know, there's one thing i mean.
00:29:40
Speaker
when you first quit drinking with a lot of people, they're very self-conscious about They feel like, oh, everybody's gonna look at me and say, what's wrong with that person or whatever? And what you discover is no one cares.
00:29:55
Speaker
no no one you know they're They're living their own lives, they're having their own good time, and they're barely paying attention to what you're doing.
00:30:05
Speaker
And I also used to think that that all of them were drinking like i was, or many of them were drinking like I was. Sometimes I go out and I'll see that you know people are people are drinking so little, it's almost like what to me is the why bother you part part of drinking, if that's all they're gonna do. But ah yeah, i just you know it just doesn't seem as big a deal um You know, once once you give it up, whether other people are doing it and certainly not their reactions to whether you're doing it or not.
00:30:41
Speaker
You know, I'm a big sports fan. I'm a big Cubs fan, as you know. And I go to Cubs games all the time and I do not miss paying double figures for a lukewarm beer. You know, I don't, I have a great time there. I have a great time going to hear music. ah Yeah, I'm fine without it. The the the habit that really, you know, i and I do go into this somewhat in the book, ah i'm I'm more of a one morning person, and I write better in the morning, and I think better in the
00:31:19
Speaker
When I became a deadline concert reviewer that had to be meeting a deadline of, say, 11.30 and had half hour crank out a review, sometimes leaving the show in order to do that, I had to be and peak creativity and peak energy at that time. And that was the sole focus, you know? Mm-hmm.
00:31:45
Speaker
So sometimes I would drink coffee after dinner, you know what mean? Just to get myself, and that's that's no good for me. It's no good for the way my my rhythms work. But it would be, I would have to build up to feel like that, ah get through my writing, and then I'd be just so wired up, so charged up.
00:32:06
Speaker
And that was when would have to take a few drinks, more smoke and dry, and just or some combination of all of it, and drive home. ah Perhaps not driving home in the best or most legal of condition.
00:32:20
Speaker
you know mean i was Some people say they drink, you know because you know i I never got what I deserved. I sometimes think that if I had gotten what I deserved,
00:32:34
Speaker
You know, i I mean, I could have been in horrendous trouble for drinking while under the influence. Somehow things worked out okay. And that's the short answer. Despite my best efforts to screw Despite your best efforts.
00:32:48
Speaker
You know, and you bringing up the Cubs in that answer is just so funny. Because that was one thing that we never saw eye to eye on. Look, one second. it I have.
00:33:01
Speaker
ah This is my lanyard that I carry around at work every day. yeah I was wondering if you had sold out to being a Reds fan. Listen, i am a Reds fan because I'm here.
00:33:13
Speaker
um And i love baseball and I will go to the games because I love baseball. But when the Cardinals come in town, i have to wear Cardinals gear. It's just a must. It's... Well, good for you. No offense to the Reds. I love them. They're great. But... Those Cardinal games are fun. They are. Those Cardinal games are a lot like college rivalries. I mean, I used to go to down to St. Louis for some of those games. And, you know, ah Cardinals always come up. You know, they're they're both good traveling fan bases. so it's And it's close.
The Role of Journalism in Artist Personas
00:33:50
Speaker
I want to circle back...
00:33:53
Speaker
Because we haven't talked a ton about your career just yet. And you said, I did a lot of stuff. You said, i was pretty successful and I did a lot of stuff. You got to talk to Celine Dion, didn't you?
00:34:04
Speaker
yes what What was that like? ah That was like $3 a word. You know, that that's how that felt to me. ah She was a sweetheart. You know, and I didn't know anything about Celine Dion, didn't care anything about Celine Dion. And one of these out of the blue sort of calls from... ah A guy who knew somebody who knew me ah just asked me if I wanted to do it, told me how much he'd pay for it. It was a Grammy preview thing. And i quickly became the most, you know, the instant Celine Dion expert. And, you know, um got her we just talked on the phone.
00:34:46
Speaker
And she was great. her Her Spengali husband was fine. you know, they were, she seemed very, there were a lot of people who I did interview and spend time with who it was a much bigger deal for me. and I almost had to separate myself. and When you do that kind of work, I mean, you know, part of what made me good at it is that I was passionate about it. was kind of a fanboy, you know, but at the same time, i am a a professional and I have to recognize that for me to do the job right, I am representing...
00:35:24
Speaker
such and such one hundred thousand readers of the Chicago Sun-Times, or such and such readership of Rolling Stone or whatever. So it it isn't like These people are talking to me. They're talking to this readership, and I'm the conduit. So I have to be the one who asks the questions, gets the right quotes. ah I'm not there to make friends. I'm not there to show them you know how much I love their music. I'm there to get the story that is going to work best for the publication that I'm representing. So...
00:36:00
Speaker
So yeah but yeah, I mean, I was the first time I ever interviewed Keith Richards, I was scared to death. You know, it was just ah the only time I and ever interviewed Bob Dylan. It was, you know, just a life-altering sort of experience.
00:36:15
Speaker
And the funny thing is that when I was doing that and when Maria and I started having our daughters, ah my coworkers would say, oh, your kids are going to think you are so cool, you know, that you know all the celebrities and this, that, and the other thing.
00:36:32
Speaker
And yeah, in you know ah long term, they probably did. But short term, it's like the people who were big deals to me in my generation, they couldn't care less about it. They thought it was cool when I could when i could get them in to see NSYNC or the Spice Girls you know or or whoever. So it's... the Bob Dylan, i mean you had a class about Bob Dylan, didn't you? Yeah, I love teaching that. The Bob Dylan class, and that's one, you know, if I ever go back to just...
00:37:07
Speaker
Teaching occasionally, that's one that I would love to to continue doing because that that was a real deep dive and it was closer to a graduate seminar.
00:37:18
Speaker
And it was more, you know, it was very definitely a journalism course. how How the media mediates between the artist who, you know, was...
00:37:31
Speaker
very elusive, very secretive. um yeah know I think it's it's the one the one of the things that Timmy gets very right about Bob Dylan the ah in the movie. He's kind of a sneaky con man.
00:37:46
Speaker
ah So on the one hand, you know the ah he's He has a real resentment towards the media, people who are trying to interpret him and stuff and kind of cast him, you know establish his persona.
00:38:04
Speaker
But he also needs them for that same thing. he you know It's these people who are communicating with his people. ah with his audience when he isn't willing to do so or you know to try to you know build that bridge.
00:38:20
Speaker
ah It was a whole different thing back then because it wasn't like you know the way we are now with the where kind of the walls have come down. with art i mean i'd I'd love to teach the same class as a Taylor Swift class because the relationship there, but to the identification with her fans and kind of The end around the media, because, you know, she doesn't need the media at all. If she does, she just uses them.
00:38:47
Speaker
There's no real Taylor Swift that exists outside of that relationship that the media understands. You know, they just they don't they don't really have any sort of idea about what's going on there.
00:39:01
Speaker
You have... seen so many different eras of journalism and music journalism, I'm sure, and even just the way that we interact with musical artists has changed so much. I think about Chapel Rhone and how she's kind of had this very unfortunate relationship with the media in a way, I feel like. And also with her fans. Yes, with her feet with all all of it. It's difficult. It's really difficult to navigate all this stuff.
00:39:36
Speaker
ah And people do it in different ways. Dylan had his way of doing it, was was to keep everybody on edge and off guard at all different times. Other people just kind of You know, lash out at it all the way Chapel Rome has. And maybe, you know, it I mean, some people will see that as a sign of her honesty, you know, the refusal to just be packaged. ah yeah To other people, they recognize that being packaged is part of the game. You know, when you enter this industry and you are product, you know, and you are a product to be mold and promoted and sold and all of that. And can you do that with a sense of humor? Can you do that like David Bowie did and and make it a subversive element in what you're doing, the whole crass commerce of it, you know, it's in this year's model. So yeah, it's it's it's all part of popular music, the the business of being popular or avoiding it. and
00:40:35
Speaker
And I wouldn't want, you know, I would hate to be under that sort of scrutiny all the time. And and particularly with social media, it's 24-7 now. You know, i mean, who knows? You know, anybody can hold up a ah phone to your face. You know, I mean, it's just you're always on stage. It's say it's different. It's continuous, too. Would you want to be, well, do you still write? It really depends. I mean, I'm doing less now, but it's probably, you know just for a time. i mean, I decided that rather than jumping into retirement and trying to fill up all that time, i would take some time and spend it with my granddaughters and not make any real commitments. I i do some book reviews from time to time. you know I'm probably going to work on another book project or ah you know try to do some more magazine pieces or stuff like that. i've just I've just been laying back for now, but I still enjoy it. I mean, it's still a real integral part of being alive for me is just you know the so whole brain processes that go up trying...
00:41:43
Speaker
ah I've often said, I think even in class, that the way I discover what I think about something is to write about it. oh Until I actually put that, you know, start engaging in that way, i my thoughts are just kind of floating around. so it's So it's important to me to do that kind of work. But it's also important for me to ah to right now take some time off because I've for so long, you know, yeah you inhabit one role as a professor. You inhabit one role as a rock critic or whatever. You un inhabit a different roles as a parent or a grandparent or a spouse.
00:42:28
Speaker
You know, and just kind of step away and see how this feels to be without some of those things that you've used to bolster your identity or whatever. Kind of unlearning, going back to, okay who's done What does Don like to do? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's something, and they have to, see, that's also part of that,
00:42:47
Speaker
That book project, because part of what one does in recovery is really try to dig down into the truth of yourself and admit some things that you might have been unwilling to face, probably incapable of facing. Discovering things about yourself that you hadn't known before and the and trying to you know have some clarity and coherence about it, which is the process that I go through when I'm exploring a writing project. You know, those of us in in academics, it's a publish or perish. I mean, we're under contract. We have to write. We have to do these sorts of things. And so I knew that I was ready for another big book project.
00:43:36
Speaker
And what could be a more fascinating thing to write about than me? You know, if I'm going to devote all these years to to something, why not me? You know, so that that was that. Now I'm sick of me.
00:43:49
Speaker
And now you're like, okay, I want to do other things. Do you have a dream interview currently? Anybody that's kind of on your radar, and no matter how big or small? yeah You know, because dream interviews, part of that would be the dream market in which to get that interview. I mean, yes, if I could write, if I could say, well, the New Yorker wants to publish me on this, then yeah, I would go after that interview. But no, it isn't it isn't like there's anybody.
00:44:24
Speaker
i don't i don't really find most people, most celebrities, all that compelling, to tell you the truth.
00:44:36
Speaker
color And i also um I also don't necessarily feel like... like Getting to know these people enhances my appreciation by appreciation of their work. Sometimes it it diminishes some of the magic.
00:44:57
Speaker
I was never one of those guys that wanted to hang around backstage. I didn't want to see what went on backstage, even when I was drinking and drugging or whatever. you know i wanted that that's their time i would be back there if i was doing my job but otherwise i didn't want to be any part of that because i think there's a lot of that stuff that i i think is kind of see me and so if there were people who i would want to talk to about their work
The Allure of Non-Celebrity Stories
00:45:27
Speaker
and about their life uh
00:45:31
Speaker
It would probably be writers, ah for particularly novelists. I spend as much time reading ah contemporary American fiction as I do listening to music.
00:45:44
Speaker
yeah After we get out, somebody's going to pop on my head. I'm going say, yeah, that's the person I really want to interview. And I'll email you with that. You'll have to let me know. You'll have to let me know for sure. Yeah, I just...
00:45:57
Speaker
I never got into this to meet famous people. i That's something that I did as part of the job but and often enjoyed as part of the job, but ah but it wasn't one of the perks.
00:46:16
Speaker
for me.
00:46:20
Speaker
because i have met some famous people through my job and just the nature of being in media really but sometimes the more meaningful stories come from folks who really aren't a celebrity right oh working in broadcast news you never know what the next day will bring but ah feel like some of the most memorable stories that i've told kind of just happened it wasn't this big thing before too so I think that's really interesting some of the most memorable stories I've ever heard have come at AA meetings you know just from people who I don't even know their last names but just listening to them recount what they've been through life-changing for them life-changing for me
00:47:11
Speaker
Definitely. ah
Advice on Drinking Habits: Reflective Questions
00:47:13
Speaker
i know you probably get this question often, especially when talking about the book, but do you have any sort of advice for someone who maybe is struggling with their own sobriety journey or maybe even coming to terms with the fact that maybe they do need to be sober, right?
00:47:35
Speaker
What advice would you give to someone? And I know that's such a loaded question. It is a loaded question, and and it kind of generalizes. I mean, different people may have, you know, one thing I can tell you, if if I can get sober, anybody can get sober, because I didn't even want it, you know? I mean, it's... ah i I know that one can do it. I know that your life can become better.
00:48:03
Speaker
I'm not saying it will become. I don't know what your life is like, you generically. But I know that it can make your life better. I know you can do it. I know that that ultimately it will get easier.
00:48:18
Speaker
oh Perhaps never easy, but it'll get easier. I know that you will benefit from it all. oh And I know that there are so many people who have been in the position that you have been and felt things were hopeless.
00:48:36
Speaker
ah you know and And found a way out. Found a way by connecting through other people who are having similar issues and ah you know and and doing what they do and listening to them and hanging out with them and just finding different ways of living your life.
00:48:55
Speaker
ah I will say that that if you're worried about whether you're drinking too much or whether this is becoming a problem,
00:49:06
Speaker
ah You've probably answered your own question because people who drink healthily and normally, they don't count their drinks. They're not worried about, you know, how how many days am I drinking or how many days am I not. they They look at drinking the way I might look at chocolate.
00:49:27
Speaker
I could have a slice of chocolate cake two or three days in a row and then not have it for six months. You know, it's just not going to be an issue with me, it' something that I could take or leave. If alcohol is becoming something more for you, if it's something that you feel like you need in your hand in order to converse with other people that you don't know it in social situations, if it's something you feel that you need in order to take the edge off or to get to sleep or to do any of these, you know, dozens of other things that addictive substances ah seem to help us with. I mean, we look at them as the cure and they're really the cause, you know? i mean, it's like,
00:50:14
Speaker
It's like when I used to smoke cigarettes, and I used to smoke three packs of cigarettes a day. I mean, like you know if I do anything, i overdo it. But you'd think that, well, if I smoke a cigarette, it's going to make me less nervous. you know it It takes that edge off. i can I can feel better by smoking the cigarette.
00:50:32
Speaker
What's really happening is that the cigarettes are causing the nervousness because it isn't, you know, people who don't have that issue, they don't have to they don't have to rush out of a movie theater to get a cigarette, you know, or or when you used to be able to smoke in restaurants, smoke between courses in restaurants.
00:50:50
Speaker
Whose meal is that benefiting, you know? and so it's like... It's like people confuse the cause and the cure. And if you just step away from all that and and allow yourself to get past those sort of physical addictions, ah you can end up with a clarity that you aren't sure was possible.
00:51:10
Speaker
yeah I think that's solid advice. I really do. ah Don, where can people find your book? They can find it so through through the publisher, ice Ice Cube Press. I think it it says so on there.
00:51:26
Speaker
It's available on Amazon. it's ah you know It can be ordered through bookstores. You can give them my email, and they can order one from me if they want one. you know But it's ah it's out there. You may have to look for it, but a lot of the best things in life you do have to look a little for. it You know, it's it's different than the what we think of in this Spotify YouTube generation of everything's at the click of a finger. But you can find it.
00:51:49
Speaker
You know, I really appreciate you giving me this time. It's great to reconnect with you. and so okay go coms and Yeah, you know, if I can, you know, serve as an example. You know, anytime you do something like this, if you reach one person who...
00:52:08
Speaker
listen to her and says, you know, that kind of makes some sense. Or, you know, maybe I will, you know, ease off for dry January or sober October or whatever it is. Or, you know, why am I just automatically reaching for this drink or this drug or this whatever? You know, what what happens if I stand back, lay off? What happens if I exercise some intentionality as to what I do? You know, that's a...
00:52:35
Speaker
But yeah, anybody I can help. I mean, I certainly didn't write a book like this to make money. you know it's So yeah, i'm I'm hoping it helps others. And the most gratifying part of all this is learning from others that they have been helped through reading this.
00:52:53
Speaker
And that other people have just, you know, respected whatever went into it Because I think it's the best piece of sustained writing I've ever done in my life. Or will do. So I'm i'm really proud of it That's cool. And you've written a lot, so I feel like that says a lot. Uh-huh.
00:53:11
Speaker
I hope so. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. ah I guess I have to say go Cardinals. Go Cards. yeah Yeah, but your heart isn't even in it. Even that front office is giving up. They're trying to shut payroll. I mean, we we suck. The Cardinals, like the Cubs, are very hesitant to use the term rebuild And you've got a lousy manager. you know So you've got a lot of stuff to work through.
00:53:39
Speaker
I'm not a at this point. You know yeah used to talk about the cardinal way, you know how the cardinals did things the right way. and And I can tell you, young lady, the cardinals are not doing things the right way. Cardinals are They're awful. I will still stick beside them, but they're awful.
00:53:59
Speaker
and Well, you keep that you keep that recorded and you save that for me. Yes, I will.
00:54:16
Speaker
Thank you again for tuning in to the Hope Mindset Podcast and be sure to get connected with us on social media. You can find us anywhere with the at name at HowAboutHope. And stay tuned for more episodes. This is the first of many. And once again, I'm so grateful for you being here.
00:54:35
Speaker
Thank you so much. You are not alone. Your story matters. And remember, you can use your experiences to help others. Go out there, spread some love, spread some light, and you'll hear from us soon.