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A Road Map to Genuine Thought Leadership
7 Plays8 months ago
The idea of stepping up to share your ideas – whether on a conference stage or social media or podcast – can be an intimidating prospect. Many people share their experiences with imposter syndrome or fear of simply “being wrong.” This episode with Orbit Media’s Co-Founder and Chief Marketing Officer Andy Crestodina will help lay out a simple road map to getting your thoughts out of your head and into the ecosystem.
You’ll learn a lot throughout this insight-packed 16 minutes:
Difference between content marketing and thought leadership
Things you have to be willing to face
The role of data
A simple AI prompt to help find your voice
In the end, the real purpose of thought leadership is to start conversations, welcome disagreement, and build “a moat” around your brand.
If you’ve been sitting on the cusp of stepping out of your comfort zone and into beginning conversations – real conversations, not just getting simple agreement or affirmation – then Andy’s insights will not only set you up for success and set you at ease but give you actionable tips on how to get there.
As always, if you like what you've heard, please follow the podcast on your favorite platform and share it with your network on social media!
If you're looking for SEO or PPC services, or you'd like an audit of your website or content, please reach out to Dane Saville at dane.saville@searchlabdigital.com.
Thanks to the leadership at SearchLab Digital for making this podcast possible.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome back to more than you can chew. I'm excited. I have Andy Crestadina, co-founder and CMO of Orbit Media Studios, author of content chemistry, top rated speaker at national conferences, teaching other practitioners how to do the work.
00:00:27
Speaker
ah but also a certified urban arborist, chair of the Economic Club of Chicago, marketing advisory council member for the Ann and Robert H. Laurie Children's Hospital of Chicago.
Volunteering and Professional Synergy
00:00:38
Speaker
So you're a busy guy. And to me, that volunteerism and desire to give back is equally impressive impressive to all of your work accomplishments. So ah Andy, you're a busy guy and you carved out time for me. Thanks for joining me on More Than You Can Chew.
00:00:51
Speaker
Glad to be here. no I've been looking forward to this. This will be
Potential Discussion Topics
00:00:54
Speaker
fun. Great, so, you know, I could have had you on to talk about any number of topics, AI, content creation, website conversions, branding, so much more of all the different things I've seen in interviews you've done with on other podcasts, in speaking sessions, in LinkedIn posts and other things that you've done to promote thought leadership, which is a great reason to have you on for this very sort of question that I have. And to lead off, I saw Will Reynolds make a LinkedIn post and credit you
00:01:24
Speaker
with a quote that he used, and that was, if it can't be disagreed with, it's not thought leadership. Now, as someone who, well, have a podcast now, I'm trying to get out to to speak and spread some thought leadership myself.
00:01:37
Speaker
I have some trepidation because imposter syndrome always sets in for me and the fear that someone's going to disagree with me. i i know Do I really want to say this thing? So when we talk about if it can't be disagreed with, it's not thought leadership.
00:01:51
Speaker
Is that the conception of the idea, the methodology to arrive at the the outcome? Is it the outcome product or or or statement itself?
Defining Thought Leadership
00:02:00
Speaker
Is it all the above? We're in this process of promoting some sort of thought leadership.
00:02:06
Speaker
where does Where does that disagreement happen? Is it every stage? No, I think basic that the idea is just that that's the standard. So let's let's just state it up front. Not all content marketing is thought leadership.
00:02:18
Speaker
um I was earlier today working on an article that I wrote about how to use GA4 to measure SEO. There are no points of view in that article. It explains how to do it in detail.
00:02:28
Speaker
I mean, there might be some minor points of view, but mostly it's just step by step how to do this. GA4 explorations and creating filters and secondary dimensions. Tons of content marketing has no point of view at all, really. I mean, it's just how-to stuff. That's fine. that's that's a lot of That's the foundation of my own content strategy.
00:02:45
Speaker
But there is a special and rarefied format that is highly differentiated, and it's called Strong point of view, op-ed, opinion-based thought leadership. That is thought leadership. So the definition, I believe, and I did some research on this once and it's there's not agreement, but in my in my book, and and part of this comes from Seth Godin, ah thought leadership is partly about creating tension.
00:03:08
Speaker
He says, you have to be willing to be wrong. You can be certain that some people will disagree. So I just summarized that and said, well, if you can't disagree with it, it's you're not doing thought leadership, which is fine.
The Role of Strong Opinions in the AI Era
00:03:18
Speaker
And you don't have to, ah but...
00:03:21
Speaker
It's an incredible way to differentiate your content today within the era of AI. it's ah A lot of people don't want to do it or are worried about it. Like you said, that trepidation, I feel it too.
00:03:32
Speaker
But I think that we have to realize here that you don't have to take a stand on really you know controversial topics. You can say some pretty mundane things and still have it be come across as thought leadership.
00:03:44
Speaker
It can still be partly provocative. I'll give you an example. I think that AI is really not a good writer. It's not good for that. it It doesn't write anything that you know really has a point of view. It doesn't care about anything. It can't make strong statements about... you know So I think that a lot of people are using AI in the wrong way.
00:04:04
Speaker
What I just said is different. It's a point of view. it's not necessary you you know you You might disagree. You might say, no, no, it's the best tool for writing it ever invented. Great. Let's have a conversation.
00:04:14
Speaker
I'm not really investing my my you know my career in this topic. It's it's interesting. There's a million things like that. And most of what we say every day while talking to friends is points of view.
00:04:26
Speaker
You agree or disagree. you know saw a movie with my six-year-old. Hey, did you what how many stars do you give the the costumes, the acting, the story? She gave the costumes five stars and the story four stars.
00:04:39
Speaker
That's her point of view. You can disagree with her, right? But she's stating a point of view So yeah, it's um ah it the idea is just, and Will is the pro at this, right? Almost everything he says is planting a flag.
00:04:52
Speaker
Take a minute and think about things that you actually have a perspective on and then just say it in kind of a direct unqualified way. That's the first step toward becoming a thought leader.
00:05:03
Speaker
Great. And so I guess to follow up on that, You put this this opinion piece out and you're getting feedback.
Engaging with Feedback and Staying Memorable
00:05:14
Speaker
What is the best way to go about in reaction to that feedback? Is it sharing the methodology on how you arrived at that? And you said, you know, that's probably a bigger point. You said you can even sort of mundane things.
00:05:25
Speaker
how do how do you How do you then engage constructively then with the people that express that disagreement? Oh, well, it's, it's, uh, the goal is not to be correct.
00:05:37
Speaker
The goal is to start a conversation. In marketing, you want to end up being top of mind. You're trying to create a moat around your brand, and it's not really safe and secure to try to base your whole, the future of your business on search rankings and social interactions.
00:05:54
Speaker
How do you stay top of mind? How do you do something memorable? How do you do something that people will talk about or create word of mouth or start a conversation? I'm not likely to start a big conversation about GA4 for SEO.
00:06:06
Speaker
There's just not that much to talk about.
Content Quality vs. Frequency
00:06:08
Speaker
It's not that interesting. But if I say that, you know, ah you know but let's say content quality is 10 times more important than frequency, print and burn your content calendar because it's ruining your marketing.
00:06:24
Speaker
Instead, publish half as often and twice the quality. You'll get way better results in the end because the the highest quality stuff gets 10x results And 10x is a lot better than 2x the frequency, right? So, you know, the world is not waiting for another medium quality blog post.
00:06:40
Speaker
Okay, so I just gave that mini rant. What am I saying? Content quality is more important than content frequency. Yeah, you can disagree if you if you think that, you know, it's all about cadence and, you know, you committed to a frequency and you got to do it.
00:06:52
Speaker
But really all I'm doing is kind of making a more forthright statement than others might make. Imposter syndrome? You know, is there going to be a big fight about that? Am I starting a food fight online? Probably not. I have said other things and Will says many things that will literally like start arguments.
00:07:09
Speaker
But these are pretty low stakes fights. I mean, we're doing digital marketing here. i mean, I've seen people get really worked up about the Oxford comma. Okay.
Opinions and Data
00:07:17
Speaker
You know, people have strong opinions about very mundane things. That's why Seinfeld was popular.
00:07:22
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, as ah as a writer by trade, and that was my ah my degree, I am an Oxford comic guy, but we won't get into that debate right now. That's not what we're here for. But going back ah going back on your point, you're sort of sort of hypothetical of or or the statement of, you know, cut your content calendar in half, publish half as frequently, but better posts.
00:07:41
Speaker
I, you know, for a lot of folks, and I know myself included, you know, you feel like you have to have a statistic statistically relevant, like volume of data to go, this is true. So, you know, let's say we we go that route. Let's say someone wants to do that.
00:07:54
Speaker
Do you do that for a number of months? do you have to wait? Like, is there a benchmark, a threshold of collecting data before you can say such a thing? Like, what's your opinion in terms of like the ability to make a statement on up on on an an issue, have an opinion, or is it just, is it intuition as well?
00:08:12
Speaker
I don't think most of the opinions in the world are backed by data. I don't know of any any requirement to have just stats and you know data to support you like the Oxford comma.
00:08:24
Speaker
Go ahead, Dane, back it up. Let's see. what what what what Let's read your sources. I want to hear the yeah the the data you've got behind No, who cares? I think coffee should never have cream. It ruins the coffee. Coffee is supposed to be dark and smoky. My wife, it's like a like making a candy bar. So much cream and sugar and coffee. like that No, I don't have data for that. That's my preference. That's what I like. I prefer coffee. i prefer black coffee.
00:08:46
Speaker
So no, no, I don't think there's any requirement. And you're not really, again, you don't have to be correct if you do have data. So here's a ah ah point of view. The strong opinion content and thought leadership works great in social media because it's triggering and it's emotional. It's a conversation, right?
00:09:03
Speaker
Data and statistics work great in search. Because that attracts links. People need that. It supports their assertions. Original research and thought leadership are the two highly differentiated formats for content that will consistently outperform in the AI era.
00:09:19
Speaker
One works great in search, one works great in social. So, no, I mean, it's a most of the conversations you see online, no, people aren't bringing data. most Most of the meetings you're in when someone expresses a preference, they're not bringing data.
00:09:33
Speaker
Data is all too rare. I mean, if you have data, yeah, great, bring it. ah you know, examples, a few examples at least. um But no, I don't think there's any threshold for for ah backing, you know, so for supporting your own perspectives with research. Most people don't.
00:09:49
Speaker
Well, that puts me at ease because I feel like there, I always felt like i I hold back because I say, you know, I don't have the the proof in the pudding to make such a, you know, a statement or have such a position. So, ah you know, mate I feel a little emboldened to get out there a little bit more already.
Using AI for Unique Content
00:10:04
Speaker
So last thing, you know,
00:10:06
Speaker
Where do you find like, you know, the market is so saturated, right? Social, every platform is saturated with people with opinions. Where do you find the ability to to to spark the conversation? Where do you find like your voice amidst all the other noise that's happening in in the ecosystem?
00:10:24
Speaker
Ironically, Dane AI is a fantastic tool for helping you find provocative but mundane topics. AI read the whole internet and it can tell you what topics are provocative yet, you know, not not necessarily controversial.
00:10:39
Speaker
So i'm goingnna I'm going to recite for you now my mundane but provocative topic prompt. Like everything that I do in ai I start with a persona. So I upload my ideal client profile.
00:10:50
Speaker
or I use a simple persona prompt. If you search for persona prompt or orbit media persona prompt, you can find my article that just that has that that, which you sort of need first. AI stinks until you teach it who you're talking to.
00:11:02
Speaker
ah joke, AI might as well stand for average information until you give it your persona and then it's awesome, right? So I think there again, ah my point of view is that AI is really not very good until, ah I mean, for marketing, until you've taught it who your target audience is, then it's amazing.
00:11:19
Speaker
Okay. So it has my persona where I've uploaded my ICPs and then I use this prompt. What are some relatively mundane but provocative topics that this persona has strong opinions about?
00:11:33
Speaker
And it will give you just a long list. of the topics of that you're, because it knows the industry of your persona, it knows the category they're in, it knows their emotional triggers. Your persona should have all those kinds of little details in it, but then it'll come back and it'll give a bunch of them.
00:11:47
Speaker
you know So I did this once for um a company that targets office managers. Are open office layouts really better or are they actually super distracting? I don't have data for that. i could get two or three contributor quotes and there could be a conversation.
00:12:02
Speaker
Who's in charge of the thermostat? Okay. Your brain just started thinking, right? Like you immediately had a point of view on that, right? Like temperature, hundred percent of people are surrounded by ambient air, right? There's temperature. So these are just things that, you know if I took a point of view on social media, targeting office managers, talking about the the silly thermostat, it'd be a conversation.
00:12:26
Speaker
i don't I'm not calling that like know thought leadership on social justice or geopolitics, but it's still a conversation. That's the idea. And you're tiptoeing toward this area of marketing that is just highly underrated and ah blue ocean for many of us.
00:12:40
Speaker
Great. Well, I am personally going to make sure I check out that article on personas. So I will be looking that up right after we jump off a year. Last thing with every guest that I have the privilege to speak with, I like to ask them about, well, you know, this is more than you can chew. And I am a bit of a foodie guy So, yeah Andy, whether it's in your hometown or somewhere you've traveled to, somewhere you've been, is there a place you'd say, look, if you if you're here, you got to check this place out.
00:13:09
Speaker
Love the question. ah Orbit Media, my business, and Search Lab, your business, are both right here in Chicago, which is a world-famous city for food. i'll um I'll make a strong ah opinion statement.
00:13:21
Speaker
Chicago's the
Chicago's Food Scene
00:13:22
Speaker
best city in the world for eating. I tell you, it's crazy. You can get anything, anytime, anywhere. it's ah just The city is vast. in its it's it's I am awestruck by the number of options within walking distance of my house.
00:13:36
Speaker
The best in Chicago, I think, Bavette's. It's kind of a speakeasy, steakhouse-y kind of place. Really just fantastic service. Everything is delicious.
00:13:47
Speaker
Ridiculously decadent. Incredible cocktails. Highly recommended. Not that famous, but Bavette's. Bivette's. Awesome. Well, the next time I come up to it Search Lab headquarters, I'm going to have to suggest we go to Bivette's. I got to say, Chicago has my favorite burger at Au Cheval.
00:14:04
Speaker
So there's an official opening. Well, they call it the small Cheval, the satellite little versions, a block from my house. oh Yeah. I tell you, this thing gets better every year. It's incredible. Yeah. Absolutely. Those are good, though.
00:14:18
Speaker
Really good. Bivettes. Back to Bivettes. I'm going to take a look at that menu the next time I come up to Chicago. ah Andy Crestedina, thank you so much for carving out time amid your schedule to bite off more than you we can chew.
00:14:30
Speaker
This was great. Say to Mark. Thank you. Thank you very much.