Transcript
Speaker: Michelle McKay, how are you?
Speaker: I'm well.
Speaker: Thank you for having me.
Speaker: Thank you for having me, guys.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you for coming on.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I'm so excited to talk to you.
Speaker: So if you're over there listening to this, we've got Michelle.
Speaker: okay who is a melbourne-based photographer and i'm going to get her to tell you more about who she is and what she does but on our end she's amazing we are so happy to be chatting with her she is going to be a speaker at the unfiltered retreat in august 2023 oh my gosh that's this year um i don't have just i don't have to keep setting the year anymore
Speaker: So she's, we've invited her to come and speak.
Speaker: And, you know, like I've just been a follower of Michelle for such a long time now.
Speaker: And I absolutely love her approach to family photography, newborn photography.
Speaker: She's just the way that she sees is incredible.
Speaker: So Michelle, I would love for you to tell people that are listening a bit about yourself and your business, sort of what you do and kind of how you came to be here.
Speaker: Thank you, Courtney, for that rather lovely and complimentary introduction.
Speaker: Yeah, so I'm in Melbourne.
Speaker: I live here with my husband and my kids, Sylvie and August.
Speaker: And I have a photography business that specialises in in-home photography, specifically for newborns and young families.
Speaker: And I also host an online community called We Are Memory Catchers, which is a space for folks who sort of make photographs,
Speaker: that catch memories, whether that's for their own families as a sort of family historian or as a business and they're doing it for client families.
Speaker: That's, I guess, the CV version, which is very informative but also rather boring.
Speaker: So I guess the real answer would be that I would describe myself as someone who is profoundly obsessed with documenting life,
Speaker: And creating a record of what it looks like and what it feels like so that I don't have to let it go, I guess.
Speaker: I'm not perfect at it.
Speaker: I miss more than I manage, I would say, but the practice of trying has become what is my life's work.
Speaker: It's something that grounds me and anchors me to real life, you know.
Speaker: If I...
Speaker: I'm honest, I would say that I'm probably deeply troubled by the impermanence of time.
Speaker: And I'm working really hard to be okay with the way that our little slice of it is momentary and that living it fully all the time is an impossibility.
Speaker: So that imperfect has to be okay.
Speaker: And I guess that the photographs I take are sort of my evidence of that and the sign that things are okay and
Speaker: just as they are, because look how wonderful they are and, and they're enough and, and it's enough already.
Speaker: So the fact that this is it is okay.
Speaker: What do you think has sort of led you to that point to like feeling, feeling those feelings, feeling that way?
Speaker: I've always like about time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, and I mean that, that I guess this is enough.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's,
Speaker: That's a good question.
Speaker: I think that I do a lot of reading on the topic because it's something that gives me a lot of stress and anxiety.
Speaker: I'm currently reading a book called 4,000 Weeks, which is sort of like an anti-time management book.
Speaker: You know, there's so many books out there that sort of teach you how to schedule and be, you know, really productive and how to do that and how to make the most use of your time.
Speaker: So I was sort of like in this deep dive down those books because I figured if I could schedule
Speaker: figure out how to optimize all of my time, then I would find that I would be okay.
Speaker: And that the issue that I'm having right now that I've had, you know, consistently throughout my life and the anxiety that's coming from time is because I haven't yet figured out how to optimize it or make the most of it.
Speaker: So I started reading all these books, you know, Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour Workweek and all this
Speaker: sort of tell you how to optimize time and schedule your life and, you know, be as productive as possible.
Speaker: And that didn't work, didn't seem to work.
Speaker: To suit those anxieties, at the moment I'm reading this book called 4,000 Weeks, which is more of sort of like it sort of looks at those as sort of like an anti-time management book in the sense that it
Speaker: It looks at all of that and it says, okay, but you're still stressed about this because like there, you know, what you really need to do is recognize that this time that we have right now is all there is and you just have to be in it and that that feels uncomfortable because being in time, being present in time and sort of recognizing that it's not infinite and that it's short-lasting is really hard and really scary.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But as soon as you realize that you can't do everything, in fact, you can't do much at all, sort of be okay with that, then that's when you can start to relax into.
Speaker: Oh, my God, I need to read this book.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Really good, actually.
Speaker: Really good.
Speaker: Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker: So your business is really focused heavily on this, like these storytelling images, but it's not even just the work.
Speaker: It's not just the imagery.
Speaker: It's also the way that you show the imagery.
Speaker: as well.
Speaker: It's the way that you sort of then present that out to, I mean, social media, to the world, I guess.
Speaker: So tell me about like, what is it about storytelling?
Speaker: And I mean, I know like you touched on this a little bit when you talked about just like the brevity of time and all of that and like catching moments, but what is it about telling the stories?
Speaker: Because it's one thing to like catch
Speaker: them.
Speaker: But what is it about that?
Speaker: That is like, so why is that so prominent in your work and who you are and what you do?
Speaker: Yeah, I think that for me, it was sort of always going to come back to the story.
Speaker: I've got a background in teaching and in English and in writing and in poetry.
Speaker: So it's sort of, it was always going to be about the story for me.
Speaker: So this is sort of just another, photography has just become this other sort of
Speaker: tool that I can use to catch that story and sort of express it for myself and for other people.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, that totally, that makes so much sense.
Speaker: Tell me just cause we're on that.
Speaker: What, what did you do before you were a photographer?
Speaker: I was a high school English teacher.
Speaker: Things are absolutely clicking in.
Speaker: Um, so yeah.
Speaker: Why, why we say that?
Speaker: just to give a bit of context for people that may not know Michelle, if you go to her socials and you look at her posts and it's not just the images, but the words that you write and the way that you write them is so beautiful.
Speaker: And you have just a really great way of, you know, enhancing the story that your images are already telling with your words.
Speaker: And it's really like, it's inspiring to read.
Speaker: And every single one of your posts gets me like in the feels.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So kind.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: It is all clicking into place because then the next question that I wanted to ask you was when you then began on this journey as a photographer, was it always the storytelling or was like, was storytelling sort of always front in mind or did you experiment?
Speaker: Did you, did you try other, I mean, like, so portraiture, I know that we can still tell a story with portraiture.
Speaker: And I know that generally photography is storytelling, like just the nature of taking a photograph, but.
Speaker: There is portraiture and there is the storytelling imagery that you do, which I feel like is just that bit more pulled back.
Speaker: It's really showing so much environment.
Speaker: So how did you kind of come to that in your business?
Speaker: Like what would you say in your work as a photographer, not necessarily in your business, but in your work as a photographer through your personal work and your client work?
Speaker: Do you, was that an easy path?
Speaker: Was that like a winding road?
Speaker: Yeah, so I sort of first started taking photographs when my daughter was born and I was photographing just with my iPhone or whatever camera, rather poor camera that I had at the time.
Speaker: And I didn't sort of get upgrade from that until she was a toddler.
Speaker: But the compulsion started when she was a baby and those initial images were sort of just me wanting to document her.
Speaker: So I was sort of getting those photographs of her face and what she looked like.
Speaker: you know, portraits sort of close up, propped up, that type of stuff where I'm sort of still trying to come at what I was trying to do.
Speaker: And what I found pretty quickly, though, was that that wasn't hitting the spot for me.
Speaker: I wanted to catch more than what she looked like.
Speaker: I wanted sort of to be able to sort of catch a slice of who she was and how it felt to know her and how it felt to be with her.
Speaker: And that was something that sort of took a whole lot longer to figure out how to catch.
Speaker: And it's something that I'm still working on today, if I'm honest.
Speaker: You know, you go through that stage when your skills are, you know, you know what you want to do in terms of your intentions, but your skills are still busy with working hard to catch up with that.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, but it was sort of, it's always been about the story for me and the goal and the challenge has been figuring out how to come at that and do it in a way that is successful in the sense that it communicates what I'm trying to have it communicate when somebody looks at the work.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, that totally makes sense.
Speaker: Do you find with your clients and I guess when you're looking at, we'll go with that because personal work and client work, it's always quite different, right?
Speaker: Just sort of as how things unfold.
Speaker: You have so much more time with your personal work.
Speaker: A lot of times you're there, you can wait.
Speaker: With your clients, do you...
Speaker: Do you find that you do a lot of like, you spend a lot of time in the like beforehand working out what kind of a story you might tell, or is it more like in the moment, everybody's so different with this.
Speaker: So I'm always fascinated by like how everyone does it for me.
Speaker: I do so much prep in the book beforehand.
Speaker: because I don't want to talk to them very much during the session because of the video and the audio and all the things.
Speaker: But I'm, I'm, I'd love to hear kind of how you approach that from a storytelling point of view.
Speaker: Do you have a story in your mind when you go in or do you just, does that just happen when you get there?
Speaker: That is such a great question.
Speaker: So the answer is that I do do preparation beforehand.
Speaker: I speak to all of my clients on the phone before I go and, and I just find that, um,
Speaker: you know, walking into someone's home often as the first member outside of the immediate family to even meet their baby and to be welcomed into this bubble is quite a vulnerable time.
Speaker: And I just find sort of having a conversation on the phone with the mum in the days leading up to me visiting is just sort of, it creates that, the foundations of a relationship of trust where I can walk in and everyone can feel relaxed and as if they've just invited somebody familiar into the space.
Speaker: We've already sort of spoken for 20 minutes, 30 minutes on the phone.
Speaker: We've spoken about their baby.
Speaker: We've spoken about like how tricky it is figuring out breastfeeding and, and how, you know, the conversations have gone in the way that they've gone.
Speaker: Like I was just speaking to, to a friend or another mom that I might, that I might speak with.
Speaker: And then when I walk into the home, we've sort of got that foundation where, where we're comfortable and, um,
Speaker: being intimate in that way, um, they're sort of less barriers to entry.
Speaker: Yeah, totally.
Speaker: I do find that I absolutely speak to my clients too much during the session.
Speaker: We sort of just like, the struggle is real when you're culling and you've got these perfect shots
Speaker: And then mum's mouth's doing something weird because you've asked her a bloody question and she's answering you and there's like, that's happening.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I've actually got a client, a gallery that I'm looking at right now.
Speaker: It's exactly the same thing.
Speaker: Oh, I just like kick myself every time because I really should know better by now, but I really am like, I just love that level of engagement and intimacy and connection during the session.
Speaker: I find that sort of really helps to really be present with the family.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: in that way um but in saying that there are so i mean i'm obviously there to tell this family's story and to tap into um the story that is uniquely theirs but then there's sort of um inevitably going to be these sort of reoccurring themes um within the overarching story of the first few weeks at home with baby you know universal stories like nurturing motherhood
Speaker: Tenderness, fragility, overwhelm, bewilderment, simplicity, like these stories that are reoccurring and that are very familiar and sort of run like a through line throughout all the stories I make for my families as a result of our inevitable shared humanity, you know, and shared experiences.
Speaker: journey through motherhood and things like that.
Speaker: And so there are strategies that I can fall back on and visual devices that I can use to shape those stories within my work that are reoccurring.
Speaker: The use of gaze and reading paths and framing and perspective and social distance and juxtaposing and all these things that I can bring in and incorporate in that moment to tell those stories.
Speaker: And then what I'm trying to do in the ultimate goal
Speaker: is that while I'm doing that to sort of, while I'm telling these stories that are universally true, that I'm also sort of catching their personal story unfolding in front of me and catching something of each of the families that I visit sort of true essence in a way that's sort of distinctly and originally and recognizably them.
Speaker: Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: So what's something that you wish that you knew when you first started as a photographer?
Speaker: Ooh,
Speaker: that if there was anything at all, if you were like thinking back, what would be something that you could have really used that advice?
Speaker: I think that, and I have to laugh because I just feel like this is like a through one through my entire life that I'm just sort of realizing in this sort of last few months that I realized, that I wish I'd realized and that I'd known that it was okay to take my time.
Speaker: I sort of have this temptation, and I think a lot of us do, to want to speed things up.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Wanting it to be faster.
Speaker: I mean, I'll take a course online and get frustrated that I have to watch the video in real time.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I want to know already that stuff and how to make it faster.
Speaker: And so I really struggle with that and sort of listening to things at one and a half times speed and everything just like to be super efficient.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: That's like I get annoyed if there is no option to watch something at one and a half speed.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I've been known to even watch like when we had a DVD player, DVDs at one and a half speed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's not even that I don't want to take the time to learn the thing.
Speaker: It's just, I want to know it already.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I can get onto the next thing.
Speaker: I just want to download it instantly to my brain.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: So I guess I would, that's what I would want to know that this idea that, that the most important thing here is to find your own artistic voice.
Speaker: And that that's something that takes time.
Speaker: It does take time.
Speaker: The best thing that you can do for yourself.
Speaker: And it's the best thing you can do for your artistic community at large and it's the best thing that you can do for the world.
Speaker: And that, you know, it's super tempting to want to just take a course and sort of emulate that other person who's apparently making lots of gravy.
Speaker: But that if you want for this game to be fulfilling and life-making, you have to take your time to find your unique voice.
Speaker: And I know that it just sounds like buzzwords.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: authenticity, find your voice and all that.
Speaker: So just to be like super clear, finding your voice takes years of consistent work and searching and you don't have to find it today.
Speaker: And when you do find it, it's okay if it changes over time as well because that's who we are as people.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: It's all right for it to evolve.
Speaker: And it's that process, isn't it?
Speaker: But knowing that finding your voice is the goal might help you let go of wanting to be someone else and knowing that the intention is to find out what you bring to the space and deciding what you can contribute.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think we were chatting with Sophia Partica from Sophie Lee Photography for another episode and she likened it to that parenting journey, how, you know, like at each stage you're exactly where you need to be and then that helps you to build and prepare for the next stage and you can't rush through that.
Speaker: You have to go through each one.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: And you don't know where the mother of a toddler version of you is going to be because you haven't done the infancy yet.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: A hundred percent.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: So next question, what would be your biggest piece of advice for someone who wanted to strengthen the storytelling component in their images?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think that coming back to like, so we talk about artistic voice and that's something that takes years to develop and figure out and that's fine and that's what it should do and you've got to enjoy that process.
Speaker: It's not about getting to the end point.
Speaker: But sort of for right now, what can really help is sort of beginning with figuring out what your intention is and sort of why you're making photographs.
Speaker: I sort of base my storytelling around sort of and help to keep my storytelling, help to give myself clarity with my storytelling with sort of four questions.
Speaker: What's the story?
Speaker: Whose story is it?
Speaker: For whom am I telling this story and why?
Speaker: And if you can figure out those things, it's going to sort of really sort of strengthen the results that you're, cause you know, it's going to give you a lot of clarity with what you're doing in the first place.
Speaker: What story are you trying to tell for whom, why, and whose story is it?
Speaker: Yeah, I like that a lot.
Speaker: I that's honestly, I think that's some advice I probably wish I would have had before I started making films wasn't until I started making films when I was like, oh, no, I really have to do that.
Speaker: I need to know all of the answers to those questions that you just asked.
Speaker: To make like a film that is compelling and means something or, you know, make sense really.
Speaker: Because, you know, it's really easy to kind of go to a session and click away and like just capture images as you go.
Speaker: But I think what makes your work so strong and where I see that strength in your galleries and the work that you put out really consistently is that like clarity.
Speaker: clear, intentional storytelling in every single image.
Speaker: And I think those answers to those questions that you just said, that whole, even just that whole thought process of kind of going into it and asking yourself those questions, I can see how now, why, why,
Speaker: your work looks the way that it does because you are asking those questions and that does become what you use to help you make those decisions about what images, because you can walk into a session and just, there's a bazillion choices that you have.
Speaker: So it's like, how do you narrow it down?
Speaker: Well, you, you start with those questions and that's going to help guide you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think it's especially helpful, like in this world of social media, where there's all of these images coming at us all the time and all of these talented artists out there doing things differently.
Speaker: and you can get sort of like, you know, the shiny object syndrome where you just want to sort of like you see something and then someone's doing it and it's getting lots of likes and it's really pretty and you're just like, well, maybe I should do like a little bit of that and give that a try and that seems to be working for them and sort of I think having this sort of clear intention and clarity about what story you're there to make
Speaker: and whose story it is and why you're doing it.
Speaker: It's sort of like having something real and concrete and tangible, like carrying a little stone in your pocket and be able to reach in and feel it when there's like all the noise of the world around you and not like sort of having this grounding force that you can keep coming back to to know that you're sort of on your right path.
Speaker: Yeah, it's like an anchor.
Speaker: An anchor, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: I think I think that is probably one of the best pieces of advice for newer photographers that I've heard in a long time, because truthfully, it is so easy to scroll through Instagram, see work, think people like that.
Speaker: And that's doing well.
Speaker: I'm going to go and emulate that.
Speaker: And if I can do that, then people will like mine.
Speaker: And then I'll get more clients because everybody's goal at the end of the day is to get as many clients as they can.
Speaker: And so, you know, I think sometimes as tempting as that can be, it's not the answer.
Speaker: And creating some sort of an anchor, as you said, like that will really help make your work stand out.
Speaker: And in the long run,
Speaker: going to make you more successful.
Speaker: So, and it helps you figure out who you are and what you lack and what you're drawn to.
Speaker: And then more people will see that and they'll be drawn to it.
Speaker: And then you'll get the people who are drawn to what you do.
Speaker: And one way you can use social media though.
Speaker: So one of my favorite books is The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron.
Speaker: And one of the things she talks about is sort of when you, when you
Speaker: get that sort of those pangs of jealousy and how to sort of use that as a sign and a message as opposed to just like to get those feelings, you know, you're scrolling and you're looking at other people's work and you see some beautiful work and you get those pangs of jealousy that feel really ugly and having these ugly thoughts.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you're just feeling like those, having those feelings can bring up sort of all of this shame and make you feel like you just want to bury them and don't want to think about it.
Speaker: And you keep scrolling and make the thought go away.
Speaker: But actually what Cameron says is that you should use those, that feeling like a message.
Speaker: And what it is, is that you're in an artist, you're in a child artist, like pointing loudly and
Speaker: at things and saying, I want that.
Speaker: I want to do that.
Speaker: Um, and if you can collect like over time, a list of the people whose work you see that makes you feel that way, and then consider what do all of these artists work have in common?
Speaker: It might help you get closer to figuring out because you're not jealous of the person you're jealous that they've managed to achieve something that you want to achieve.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And once you can figure out what that thing is, that sort of, um,
Speaker: that sort of consistent thing that all of these people are doing that makes you feel like, ah, gosh, and then you can sort of use that and start working towards it, use it as sort of like a tool towards action.
Speaker: Yeah, that's so good.
Speaker: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: All right, so last question.
Speaker: What are you most excited about for when we're at the Unfiltered Retreat?
Speaker: Oh, I'm just so excited to be learning from all the other,
Speaker: That's the answer we were looking for.
Speaker: I think that's true for everyone though.
Speaker: I know I am.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We all are.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Thank you, Michelle.
Speaker: Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker: It's just been such a pleasure.
Speaker: It's always lovely hanging out with you ladies.
Speaker: I'm excited to hang out with you ladies.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: In person.
Speaker: And that's, I think what's going to be so great about it is that, you know, it's,
Speaker: the fact that we can all come together after like what was essentially a long time apart.
Speaker: We haven't been able to do lots of in-person things for so long and now we're finally able to do it, but also to do it when we've got no other distractions.
Speaker: Like when we're there at the retreat, we're just at the retreat.
Speaker: There's no kids to worry about.
Speaker: There's no dinners to make.
Speaker: There's no bags to pack.
Speaker: we're just there and we can, you know, really immerse our creative sides and spend time.
Speaker: Like, you know, all of the talks are going to be amazing and everything, but the best thing is just going to be the time that we get to spend together.
Speaker: Just like-minded souls just in one space.
Speaker: Oh, it's just going to be juicy.
Speaker: I can't wait.
Speaker: It is going to be juicy.
Speaker: I can't wait.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Thanks, Michelle.
Speaker: We will look forward to seeing you at the retreat.
Speaker: Thanks for the chat, guys.
Speaker: See you.
