Transcript
Speaker: Hello lovely people.
Speaker: Welcome to another episode of the Filming Life Unfiltered podcast.
Speaker: I am Kylie.
Speaker: I'm here today without Courtney but with a really really special guest.
Speaker: a extremely talented filmmaker and photographer from Boston in the US.
Speaker: She's also a Filming Life Pro and one of our deeply valued mentors in the Filming Life Academy.
Speaker: And her name is Amy Mercatroyd.
Speaker: Thank you for coming and talking to us, Amy.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: I appreciate being here.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: I'm excited to extend this conversation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So for those who don't know, in addition to all of that, that I just said, Amy was also one of our speakers at the very first unfiltered retreat that took place in August, 2023 here in Australia, in the blue mountains, Amy traveled all the way from the U S and I know that it's a very long trip from the East coast.
Speaker: It's a good 24 hours plus of travel.
Speaker: So, yeah, we were so thankful that you agreed to make the trip and that you came.
Speaker: And I think, you know, the talk that you gave just really, you know, it was just amazing.
Speaker: It was our closing talk, so it was just it was a perfect way to end the retreat.
Speaker: But, yeah, what did you think of Australia, Amy?
Speaker: How was your trip?
Speaker: I'm on the way.
Speaker: Oh, I know you had some holidays afterwards, didn't you?
Speaker: Yeah, I sure did.
Speaker: Yeah, we did a little traveling around with another couple that joined us.
Speaker: Yeah, unfiltered just blew me away.
Speaker: I really didn't come with expectations.
Speaker: I kind of came, my only expectation was to come and kind of be poured out on behalf of the attendees as a speaker, to just be really present with them in the portfolio reviews and the editing demo, as well as my talk and not...
Speaker: to really arrive with any needs or expectations about what I could learn.
Speaker: And yet I left like a wet sponge.
Speaker: Like I had just absorbed so much from that time.
Speaker: And the learning, Kylie, was so unique to the retreat and that it really wasn't geared for new photographers.
Speaker: I've attended so many photography conferences and have felt that like they were a little played out for me that, you know, I maybe had maximized most of the learning in all honesty.
Speaker: And that now I'm in that practice phase of
Speaker: of life and business where you just like, you know, just ground, you just like keep out at your art, proving it.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: What I appreciate is just the diversity of speakers that you brought to that table and, and how much the speakers learned from the attendees.
Speaker: The meals were like, the learning never stopped because we had these community meals and we were constantly sitting with new people.
Speaker: You're getting exposure to business practices.
Speaker: yeah, and just approaches to client experience and other things.
Speaker: And it was never these superficial conversations.
Speaker: Like they were just those like deeply enrich conversations, the kinds that, that leave you wanting more and leave you feeling stretched.
Speaker: And so I just, I, I left blown away.
Speaker: Never did I expect as a speaker to come away with such like a full, full,
Speaker: full heart and full head um yeah and I think even for Courtney and I it um it ended up being more than more than we expected like it was you know and I think you know as you said about how it wasn't really for beginners and that was really intentional on our part we we
Speaker: You know, there are so many workshops and things out there for beginners that are, you know, teaching people how to shoot or, you know, for people who are in maybe like only their first few years running a business.
Speaker: There's so much out there.
Speaker: But there's really not much at all for those of us who have been in business for, you know, five, six, seven, 10 years, you know, like, and it's really hard sometimes to find support because, you know, a lot of the groups that,
Speaker: on Facebook and, you know, around the place are geared for those more beginner people.
Speaker: And so it's hard to find the community and the support that you need when you do get further along in your business.
Speaker: And it comes these questions that, you know, aren't really relevant to people in year one or year two, but people in year six, seven, eight, nine can, you know, help you with or relate to.
Speaker: So I
Speaker: We were really intentional with that.
Speaker: We really wanted to make it for people who have kind of been there for a while.
Speaker: They've been doing it and want to stretch themselves.
Speaker: And maybe potentially, you know, when you do reach that point, like once you get to year six, year seven, year eight, you know, you do start to, you know,
Speaker: sometimes question what you're doing.
Speaker: You know, you've been doing the same thing and yes, it's working and maybe it's successful or maybe it's not, maybe it's stopping being so successful or whatever, but you do start to, you know, as we grow as humans and our businesses evolves and we evolve, you might start to think, oh, you know, is this really what I want to do?
Speaker: Do I want to keep doing things like this?
Speaker: Do I want to change them?
Speaker: You know, often when you're so in the thick of running your business and you're busy, you don't get a chance to step back and think about that.
Speaker: So we really wanted that retreat to give people that space and that time and expose them to different thoughts and ideas and just have the opportunity to sit together.
Speaker: with other photographers who are at your same level or, you know, very close, a little bit ahead of you or a little bit behind you and have those conversations.
Speaker: And we were very intentional too with the meals.
Speaker: We wanted every single meal to be included in the price of the ticket so that everybody would come together and sit because we know from our own experiences that that's where some of the best conversations happen.
Speaker: That's where some of the best learning happens.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's where you're processing what you heard.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And even if you're not talking about business and you just talk like, you know, everybody that was there was, you know, or just about everybody had children at one age or another, like the age range of the children of people who were there were quite large.
Speaker: So it was really great to also get that perspective of what it's like to be a photographer and a mum in business and
Speaker: and how that affects your children or your parenting or, you know, just how it goes in terms of documenting your own life when your children are at varying ages.
Speaker: It was just such, so great.
Speaker: Like the conversations were incredible.
Speaker: It felt like a sisterhood and I really do, I think, you know, like attracts like.
Speaker: And so I credit a lot of that to you and Courtney and the type of artists you attract, like the empathetic thinking,
Speaker: you know, deeply feeling artist.
Speaker: And yeah, each of those dear women, I feel like my souvenirs now, you know, that I just like, I take them home.
Speaker: I literally brought them home in my heart to the United States.
Speaker: And it's honestly the last and possibly the only retreat I'll ever, you know, not the last I hope to return, but it would be the only retreat I could see myself attending at this point because it just set that bar so high for me in terms of
Speaker: meeting felt needs I didn't know I had.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that was, that was a big theme of it.
Speaker: I think a lot of people said the same thing.
Speaker: They're like, I didn't realize the things that I needed until I came and then I was getting it.
Speaker: So yeah, there's a, there's a lot of pressure now with 2024.
Speaker: Obviously we're just about to launch tickets next week.
Speaker: So for those who are listening and they're not sure it's the end of October.
Speaker: While we're chatting, putting that in there so that if you're listening to this later on, you're just like, hang on a minute, what's going on?
Speaker: Yeah, so we are gearing up to launch tickets for next week and where Courtney's been in the US for the last few weeks.
Speaker: So this week is going to be this week in the next few, early next week will be a mad scramble of.
Speaker: you know finalizing plans and you know getting everything ready but we're just we're so excited to just provide that experience for people again and not just for people who are new who didn't come to the first one but for those who are going to come back as well we know that a lot of people really really um you know they've added that as now their annual thing to the calendar so we're really excited to you know um
Speaker: have that experience again and like I can't wait I know Courtney can't we're both so excited I know and I'll just put out there if you live in this states like budget for this if it means you only attend you know one retreat or conference in the next two years make it this one I really I think the travel is so worth it you'll see a corner of the world that is just brilliant and beautiful and and be so glad you did
Speaker: Yeah, I traveled to the US for a conference and it was definitely like one of the best investments I ever made.
Speaker: Like, yeah, hands down.
Speaker: So one of the things that I think really set the tone for the retreat was the speakers that we had and the things that they spoke about.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, you know, having the speakers involved, like the speakers weren't just speakers and they did their talk and then they disappeared.
Speaker: Like you guys were active participants.
Speaker: You weren't just speakers, you were attendees as well, you were active participants.
Speaker: But I think, you know, the talks that we gave were so important.
Speaker: interesting and they were also different but there was definitely like themes and threads that kind of connected them all um but i especially loved your talk and i loved how your talk really um affected everybody who listened and really opened some minds so for a lot of people there the concept that you spoke about was not something that they'd ever thought about or heard before and
Speaker: And in many ways it goes, it's, it's the complete opposite of what we've been.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's the complete opposite of what we've been told as business people and marketers and social media and all the rest of it.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: For me, it wasn't a new concept because you and I have spoken about this before.
Speaker: We did a podcast together in 2021 where that was the first time you kind of introduced me to this concept.
Speaker: And if that conversation that we have had and that way that you used
Speaker: thought about clients has stuck with me and so maybe just for those who haven't listened to that first one or weren't at the retreat just explain like what was your talk about it was called moving beyond the ideal client so just yeah listen as an idea of you know
Speaker: what that means.
Speaker: Yeah, I'll lead off by saying I'm not contrarian by nature.
Speaker: Like it is not like me at all to like go against the grain or be countercultural.
Speaker: I'd much rather sit in a corner and be silent and, you know, silently disagree.
Speaker: And, but there is just this melody in my heart, honestly, for our industry.
Speaker: And it's born on the back of some hard experiences that I forged for myself in business.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I think we're all familiar with the ideal client, like as a photographer or filmmaker, you'd have to live under a rock not to have heard of it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And it's, it's certainly open to interpretation, but it's just tossed around so lightly as, as you know, a path to success and fulfillment in business.
Speaker: And I think I've just had, my story has been written such that it's caused me to call that into question.
Speaker: And I think this song for the industry is, um,
Speaker: is just to call us to consider, are we the ideal photographers and filmmakers for the client?
Speaker: To almost flip the narrative.
Speaker: It's so easy to think about, who's that ideal client for me?
Speaker: But how often are we looking internally to question, are we the ideal photographer for them?
Speaker: in the same way that marriage and parenting has been such a mirror to me in terms of my own flaws and, and blind spots, right?
Speaker: I feel like my business has been that.
Speaker: It's really shined a light into some sort of dark places.
Speaker: And we got to talk about that in my talk.
Speaker: It was collaborative, you know, there's some interaction.
Speaker: And I really tried to come at it from this approach that like,
Speaker: I'm just not ideal myself.
Speaker: I shared for my own failings.
Speaker: You know, I listed like experiences I've had on the job and in sessions or I have fallen short of my client's expectations.
Speaker: And yet it's my default as a human who wants what I want to hold expectations over my clients.
Speaker: And how unfair is that?
Speaker: I've disappointed theirs and yet they're supposed to live up to mine.
Speaker: And I have to leave space here.
Speaker: You know, I think the ideal client is actually a really useful tool for paid marketing.
Speaker: Like that is a case where I absolutely ascribe to that ideal client notion.
Speaker: When I transitioned my business, my photography business to films, you bet that those paid advertisements on Instagram and Facebook were checking boxes, right?
Speaker: Certain demographics.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Because you've got to target the right people.
Speaker: So it's shown to the right people.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Even places they lived, because I know that the investment of a film is something they could afford.
Speaker: Our starting assumption is that if they're a client, that you have really two expectations for them.
Speaker: By definition, a client sees value in your work and is willing to pay what you ask.
Speaker: In addition, I think they have to be courteous.
Speaker: Honestly, like that's just a baseline assumption here that that client who's hired you is courteous, right?
Speaker: And respectful of you, of your work, of your time, those things.
Speaker: So we all need those healthy boundaries.
Speaker: I think the breaking points in business are always going to be like,
Speaker: how valued we feel as the, you know, the artist and how valued the client feels.
Speaker: So, so that sets it up a little bit.
Speaker: I think when I, yeah, just trying to flip the narrative a little bit and, and, and encourage us to look, look at the things that sort of undergird our notions of ideal client.
Speaker: And I am so grateful that I move in circles, honestly, where ideal client isn't defined in the old fashioned way.
Speaker: It's like,
Speaker: When I first learned about Ideal Client, the photographer who taught the course defined her ideal client as the J.Crew-clad yuppies of the world who are privately educated and live in this best suburb in town.
Speaker: And that was her actual distillation of her ideal client, verbatim, right, from her slide.
Speaker: And we've come so far.
Speaker: Aren't we just more progressive and open-minded and open-hearted?
Speaker: So to have that lowest common denominator, but the fact is that we do bring so many expectations into that relationship.
Speaker: Um, you know, I'm sure we can name them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think, I think, um, I think one of the things that's missing sometimes when we talk about our ideal client and probably particularly, um,
Speaker: you know, maybe for those who are in the earlier stages of their business, it, it, it, it's probably how to go about it.
Speaker: It probably, you probably don't start to think about it till you've been in it for a little while, but I think, I think sometimes what's missing from that conversation is about the ideal client is yes, of course, obviously we're running businesses, so we want to make money and it's about making money.
Speaker: And what's the point of doing it if you're not making money?
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: Yes, 100%.
Speaker: Let's get that out of the way.
Speaker: Yes, we're here to make money.
Speaker: But there's also that flip side of it that is like with the ideal client, it comes back to like your why of why you do your job.
Speaker: And I think sometimes, you know, that's an equation that we don't really think about it.
Speaker: And so we go, well, what is the purpose of my business?
Speaker: Who am I trying to serve?
Speaker: Because at the end of the day, it is a service business.
Speaker: We're serving customers.
Speaker: They're coming to us for a need and we're serving that.
Speaker: And the people that will come to us will come to us for very different reasons.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: based on you know what they see that we're putting out there or whatever and so I think that you know your idea of thinking about you know am I the ideal client for am I the ideal photographer for them is such a great way to kind of flip that in your mind and think about you know what kind of service do I want to provide who are the kinds of people that I want to serve and
Speaker: How can I move beyond just that kind of surface level or whatever to really get to the heart of, you know, why it is that I run my business and what I'm really giving the people who come to me and spend their money with me.
Speaker: And I think that's really at the heart of what you talk about.
Speaker: It's how can I best serve the people that come for me?
Speaker: And so it's great to have this idea of, you know, who those people might be or whatever.
Speaker: But it's also I think, you know, it's about having that open mind that maybe I'm
Speaker: you know, maybe they don't look the way that I thought they would, or they don't look in, they don't live in the suburb that I thought they would.
Speaker: And, you know, not letting those things limit you from saying yes to being able to provide a really great service that that person can get from you.
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: And I'll mention what we can get from them too, that when we have that sort of open hearted, receptive posture, um,
Speaker: you know, not only are we imprinting on the client, so often, you know, we're thinking about how they make us look, but we're not thinking about how we imprint on them in ways that we can encourage their hearts, right?
Speaker: But in turn, like, we stand to learn something about ourselves in this process.
Speaker: Like, my non, by, I don't use this term, but the non-ideal client by other, you know, some standards, and by that, I mean, not just like
Speaker: Maybe they have small dark houses or live in the wrong part of time.
Speaker: So I can like clients, my clients who, um,
Speaker: don't express emotion easily, maybe aren't super connected for the camera, not at all chill, but tightly wound.
Speaker: I'm talking about these intangibles, the ones that feel really important to us as family filmmakers, I'm even taking to task and here's why.
Speaker: I truly believe that it's my non-ideal clients, the ones I have to work a little harder for that shape me in the most beautiful ways.
Speaker: I gave the example in the talk of that client who I gave two examples of two clients, both ideal, both so very different and how the one has been so formative for me in two ways.
Speaker: She's was the first to to embrace films and she books me twice a year for a full length film, which is mind blowing.
Speaker: Who needs two years?
Speaker: um and then secondly you know it was her experience with a photographer dad that has informed how I approach my girls my growing girls with a camera um and my willingness to set it down to be present with them because of what she taught me um on the book like on the surface this this would not be an ideal client in terms of like it would feel like a mismatch and yeah um
Speaker: oh, my heart embraces her.
Speaker: And then what she's given me is far and above more for me, more shaping than anything I gave her, which amounts to digital files and that, you know, six minute video this year.
Speaker: So yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's, I think my, my hope is in this whole conversation is not that anyone feels a hand slap or like a, a judgment, you know, I think what I want is then
Speaker: You know, when they send that last gallery and they push back from their desk, I want them to have like the deepest fulfillment, knowing that their business fulfilled its purpose and brought, you know, beauty and goodness to this world.
Speaker: And that's what I think we're all trying to do.
Speaker: No, never, never would I question motives.
Speaker: I think the photographers are working so hard this time of year here in the States.
Speaker: It's fall and we are just grinding right now.
Speaker: Everybody is so well intentioned.
Speaker: Like they are, these photographers have beautiful hearts.
Speaker: They mean so well by their clients.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I think in the execution of how we do our jobs, my business and somebody else's business would look pretty much identical, right?
Speaker: And that's sort of like the respect offered even those non-ideal clients during a session when everything's unraveling and we know what that's like.
Speaker: Things hit the fan fast in family, you know, photography.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm questioning down the road.
Speaker: I'm like, let's think about 10 years from now, how you're doing if you're approaching a session expecting so that your clients bring so much.
Speaker: And we even talked in my talk about how are we really deserving of like three paragraphs of thanks from our clients?
Speaker: It sure feels nice, but even that's an expectation I've learned to take to task.
Speaker: um and just before we started it's funny you say that because that was something that you know I know I've struggled with and I know a lot of photographers you know you send a gallery you send a film you don't hear anything back sometimes for a long time yeah that used to really get to me and then after we had our um chat in 2021 I really I flipped the way that I thought about that and so now when I send out
Speaker: a gallery or I send out a film I'm not like thinking oh I hope I hope they think it's great or I hope you know I'm not wanting feedback from them that's going to validate like how good I am and how good I made the film or whatever now when I'm sending it I'm sending it with this hope that um
Speaker: I hope it's everything they wanted for their family.
Speaker: Like I hope it's what they need for their family.
Speaker: I hope my hope when I send these things off is that, you know, this will be something that I hope I've managed to meet their expectation that it will be something they treasure for years to come and are proud to show to their children.
Speaker: Not because of how I've made it, but because of what it shows me
Speaker: their children of them as a parent in that in that film it's it's yeah it's kind of taken it off me so much and I think it's definitely improved me as a filmmaker as well because I'm not I'm not walking in there like you said you you know you you spoke about how you go in as like a blank slate you know it's easy to have these ideas and a shot list and all the things that you want to capture and how you want to do it and then you walk in and like
Speaker: nothing goes to plan and it's different than you expect whereas if you walk in with no expectations then you kind of you're open to what happens and to allow them to be where they're at and then just capture that for them and yeah it's really kind of flipped my thinking and I think that that's something that is um
Speaker: you know, I think it's a great way.
Speaker: I think it makes us better in how we serve our clients.
Speaker: When we, when we take our ego out of the equation, bring it back to the why of why we do it and why we want to serve this client.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We talked about how fear and self-importance could be.
Speaker: It's not prescriptive.
Speaker: It's just possibly descriptive in my own experience, shall I say.
Speaker: Fear and self-importance is what was driving my notion of an ideal client at the heart.
Speaker: And so we kind of followed track to those roots, but I love what you shared there, Kylie.
Speaker: And the ways that you're, it's so courageous to be humble.
Speaker: It's so courageous and so hard to stay small in our picture, right?
Speaker: Like, yeah.
Speaker: especially when we're creating art from a very deep place and it feels so deeply personal to us.
Speaker: Like, it's like giving birth, you know, in a sense we're incarnating this work and it feels like our child by the time we've, you know, delivered.
Speaker: And if they say that, you know, it's like, if they don't say that child's beautiful, it's like, you're calling my baby ugly.
Speaker: You don't like my baby.
Speaker: So it's like, you really, you have to release that, you know?
Speaker: And I think,
Speaker: I think in doing that there is freedom.
Speaker: And I just, I think I crave that freedom.
Speaker: I'm part of so many conversations with photographers that are, I think struggling to love, they love the work, they love the creative process, but it's like the clients just keep getting in the way in a sense, you know, and they say it that way.
Speaker: And I don't think that's how, I don't mean to be unfair, but
Speaker: It's just how it comes across maybe or how I'm interpreting.
Speaker: And I think we go into business with this beautiful purpose and these ideals, shall we say, of
Speaker: of preserving moments and memories for these clients, because we see humanity as art.
Speaker: Like we see souls as something beautiful, but over time, and this is why I loved Unfiltered, because I got to speak to experienced super talented photographers.
Speaker: Over time, we can build up a bit of a callus around our heart where it becomes more of that like clients become a means of our self-expression.
Speaker: And no longer are we seeing them as art in and of themselves.
Speaker: And I don't think that I can entirely blame the ideal client construct on that.
Speaker: You know, I don't think...
Speaker: you know, I think that there are some valuable aspects to the ideal client.
Speaker: Um, I just think it's a contributor and I think that for too long, our, um, our industry has just kind of nodded and agreed with the ideal client, but not really questioned it.
Speaker: Um, and ways that it erodes sort of that clarity of vision that we need maybe as photographers.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think, I think too, you know, a lot of it comes down to like, um,
Speaker: you know, being conscious of making a decision about like, what kind of business do you, do you want to run?
Speaker: How do you want to serve your clients in a certain way?
Speaker: And the, and understanding and accepting that if you want to run it in this way, that's absolutely the way you should run it.
Speaker: And if you want to run it in this way, that's the way you should run it.
Speaker: Like there's no, there's no one right way to run a business.
Speaker: If you just want to get in and
Speaker: If you want to get in and photograph your clients and provide a certain type of service and just focus on, you know, this or that, absolutely 100%.
Speaker: But I think it's about just making sure that people make conscious decisions around that.
Speaker: I know some photographers who they love to be able to, they love their work.
Speaker: They love what they do.
Speaker: But when they go home at five o'clock in the afternoon or whatever, they don't want to think about photography or they don't want to think about anything else.
Speaker: And they, you know, like, and then there are other people who want to run a job where, you know, it's not just, you know,
Speaker: You know, working the nine to five, they're doing it at different times and both ways are so valid.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And I think what it comes down to is that taking the time to sit and think and decide, you know.
Speaker: what is it that I want and am I running my business in that way and the best way that serves me and the best way that serves my family and the best way that serves my clients.
Speaker: And that's not going to look the same for anyone, you know, and I think it is, it's just that understanding of knowing, you know, where you want to be at and then 100% claiming that.
Speaker: But I think you touched on something there that,
Speaker: about particularly for photographers who have been in the business for a while um and that feeling of you know the clients almost getting getting in the way or building up that callus around you know like they just become another bit of product in our business or whatever i liken it i think a little bit to um
Speaker: I think anyone that's had a baby knows what it's like to go into a hospital and deal with the midwives in a hospital.
Speaker: And there's a very big,
Speaker: broad range of midwives and you've got midwives who are, who haven't been doing it for very long.
Speaker: And then you've got midwives who have been doing it for very long.
Speaker: And in the, in the cohort of midwives who have been doing it for a long time, there are two very distinctive types.
Speaker: There is the type who have never lost their wonder for it and their, their service.
Speaker: And then there are the types who it's just, it's just become, um,
Speaker: It's no longer a calling.
Speaker: It's just a job.
Speaker: It's just a way to make money.
Speaker: And there's that kind of forgetting that for them, this might be the 1000th baby they've delivered.
Speaker: But for the woman in front of them, this is their first baby.
Speaker: You know, like, and you do, you notice that if you've had one baby or a couple of babies and you've dealt with midwives and you see, see those types.
Speaker: And I think that it's kind of like that without a business.
Speaker: It's the same for photographers as well.
Speaker: Like when we've been in our business for a while, it can be very easy to kind of be like, well, you know, like.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: There's no finger pointing here.
Speaker: This is like a natural progression for I think any business owner.
Speaker: But you know, it's almost like my talk I thought is like, you know, a state of a union address for our businesses in a sense of like, you know, I'm united with this business, but let's, let's take a hard look at the roots of it and like wait, you know,
Speaker: biases, prejudices that are influencing some of my, if not actual decisions, some of the ways that I, what I bring into a session, right?
Speaker: Even if, even if you're still going to book that troublesome client next year, you know, what, what biases and prejudices are.
Speaker: are you bringing in because really like our clients deserve for us to check that at the door that sat like that that nurse who's overworked and has you know brought three other babies into the world that day has to check some of her fatigue at the door in order to celebrate this massive milestone with the family and i um and and that's what this our sessions feel like for our clients are these massive milestones like yeah they're beginning to be seen
Speaker: You know, as the soul flames, they are, you know, these we're all for such a short time.
Speaker: We're all just these flickering soul flames and they're like, just celebrate me, you know?
Speaker: And so when we think to ourselves, oh, you have older kids, I have no idea what to do with older kids or, you know.
Speaker: I can't believe you put your kid in that character t-shirt or, you know, like we're just setting ourselves up, you know, to, to not deliver.
Speaker: I think the best work we can, and even if like really our work is unaffected.
Speaker: And I think sometimes with the experience, it won't be.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: it's sometimes deeper, right?
Speaker: The way that what gets eroded over time.
Speaker: And I do, I just feel gone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I was just gonna say, I think, you know, that's really great.
Speaker: Cause I think, you know, you can look at it and you can go, and that's where coming back to like your why and like, what kind of a service do I want to give my clients and, and looking at like what's making you enjoy it.
Speaker: And
Speaker: If having your clients, you know, say having your clients look a certain way and dress in a certain way and have a certain location is what you love, then figure out how you can shape your business to provide that exact service.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: for the clients who want it.
Speaker: And so that you're providing it in a way that brings you, that gives you joy in that service to the clients.
Speaker: And it's the same thing where if that's not what you want to do, it's thinking about, well, you know, what do I want to provide those clients?
Speaker: And no matter how you run it and how you do it,
Speaker: looking deep inside, deciding how are you going to best serve your clients?
Speaker: How are you going to do it so that you can serve them with an open heart and a happy heart and not feel burnt out and not feel like your clients are a burden?
Speaker: Because once they do start to feel like a burden, you know, then people can feel that, you know, and, and that's when you can get that resistance and that hard bit and things stop being fun.
Speaker: And what's the point of doing it if it's not fun, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: And even if they never feel it, Kylie, like we become disenchanted with their business because our business is the client.
Speaker: It, they're just so, it just goes hand in hand.
Speaker: So even if they never feel that from us and I, you know, you pray they don't because you know, you're professional after all.
Speaker: So buck up and shoot the session the best you can.
Speaker: But, but like over time, I think what stands to road is just your enchantment with the business because you've stopped to like, and I really appreciate the uniqueness and the individuality of the client.
Speaker: But I'm really glad, so, so glad you brought up that point because I was sure to raise that in the talk of like,
Speaker: If you have a studio business and if you have a client closet and you really drill down on like your client guide, by all means, do that.
Speaker: Like your clients are coming to you for exactly that visual voice.
Speaker: You need, like, we need you.
Speaker: We need you at the table, bringing that art into the world.
Speaker: It's exactly what your clients want.
Speaker: Don't change a thing.
Speaker: That's not the message.
Speaker: The message isn't everyone should be a documentary photographer and, you know,
Speaker: eager to photograph families and whatever they rolled out.
Speaker: That's not like the message you do you, but in the context of that, within the context of the business you've built and the visual voice you've established, like just love them well, because we have so much more like we can,
Speaker: we don't just create magic with ideal clients if you say that if you think that and believe it then you're selling yourself short because i know as a photographer you have almost that second eye right like that way of seeing so beautifully past the noise um i know as a photographer that you're a deep empath and so you thus have a big heart and i know um
Speaker: I know as a photographer, especially experienced when your art is more resilient than that, don't sell yourself short.
Speaker: You can make magic with non-ideal clients.
Speaker: And that's where, that's the song in my heart.
Speaker: That's what I'm reluctantly saying out there as I like put it out and then like step back and wait for the-
Speaker: And that's where I think knowing and being really clear on like how you want to serve your clients and how you want to serve them in a particular way is so important.
Speaker: So, you know, like take myself, for example.
Speaker: I am not, so a photographer who does incredible sunset shoots with beautiful client wardrobes and these amazing dresses, I am not a photographer
Speaker: that kind of person, but...
Speaker: I have wanted those photos.
Speaker: And so I have seeked out a photographer that does that.
Speaker: And when you find the right one and when they're, when they can look beyond me, who's, you know, wearing my bright pink and, you know, got my bright pink hair and it's crazy and all the rest of it.
Speaker: And they can, they can see me for who I am and understand the need that I have to have those photos because it's because I want to see myself and
Speaker: in the way that they see their clients and the very best ones are able to provide an experience that makes me feel comfortable doing it and that makes me into that yeah that in the end I am their ideal client I guess but not you know in that way do you know what I mean it's like not closing yourself off to someone like me who might look at and go well
Speaker: I don't know about that.
Speaker: They'd be crazy, but now I know what you're saying.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And I feel that way with older kids.
Speaker: I feel like I'm not everyone's ideal client anymore with older kids.
Speaker: And that's, that's hard to come to terms with.
Speaker: So, and the best photographers who are able to do that are the ones who have, they have taken that step back and taken that time to really examine, you know, what it is that, um,
Speaker: you know, how can I be the ideal photographer for the people that seek me out?
Speaker: And that idea that instead of thinking about our ideal clients, we think about how can we be people's ideal photographer for what they're seeking in that moment.
Speaker: And it's different all the time.
Speaker: And even for the same person, they might want a particular type of thing one year and then they might want something different the next year.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it's, it's such a, we could talk about it for days and days and days.
Speaker: It's such a broad, a broad topic, but I think it's one of the things that why your talk was so loved and unfiltered because you know, it is thinking about it in a way that it's different to how we've always been told to think about it by, you know, experts and marketing people and, you know, all the rest of it.
Speaker: And it's sometimes uncomfortable to think that, oh, maybe I'll,
Speaker: maybe I could do things differently.
Speaker: And I know sometimes when I read something and if I feel a particular kind of resistance to it, that's when I know I need to actually like dig a little deeper and go, well, hang on a minute.
Speaker: Why is that kind of irking me?
Speaker: Why is that idea irking me?
Speaker: And, and you know, what kind of little truth nugget
Speaker: is in there maybe that I can take away and I know like from when we first spoke at our podcast and you spoke about this idea of you know being a blank slate and not caring about whether we get instant feedback from our clients about how much they love things and whatnot that really convicted me you know and I thought about it for a long time and I thought well why is this and I realized because you know for me
Speaker: My ego was, and that, yeah, that was, you know, getting in the way.
Speaker: And it's something that, you know, it was uncomfortable to sit with when I, like, you know, when I first started thinking about it.
Speaker: And for other people, it might be something different.
Speaker: It might be a different thing that, you know, because we all, you know,
Speaker: We hear words and we hear ideas and we put our own perspective and life experience on it.
Speaker: And so we may be convicted in different ways.
Speaker: But that's what I love about, you know, particularly when you spoke at Unfiltered is because it gave people just something to think about and something to really mull over.
Speaker: and unfiltered was the perfect space for that because then they also had that time to like talk about it and talk about how they were feeling with other photographers who are at a similar point in their careers and and in their experiences and things so yeah I was I was worried about you know I hoped for soft hearts I was so worried about how I'd be received because again you don't want to come off accusatory that's not at all the message um
Speaker: I'm longing for their fulfillment.
Speaker: And I've learned, I described it as a detour sign.
Speaker: I'm like, listen, I have made some massive mistakes and I gave stories to support that.
Speaker: And here's this me holding a detour set, like to avoid these mistakes.
Speaker: I've found such joy and freedom and deep fulfillment in embracing this.
Speaker: And I feel free to create.
Speaker: I'm freed from like the fear of
Speaker: you know, whether they like my work, I just trust that if they've come to me and they see me worthy of their investment, their heart and dollars that and knowing myself well enough that I'm going to, you know, do the best work I can that that it's going to work out.
Speaker: It usually does.
Speaker: But I will say that, like, you just said that it was you used words like convicting or hard to hear.
Speaker: And let me tell you that my own words are hard to hear.
Speaker: I shared just before we hit record on this podcast that it's been a rough two months since
Speaker: unfiltered, it kind of felt like all everything I shared and everything I'm saying here was put to the test.
Speaker: It has been a really rough go.
Speaker: I've had a tough fall.
Speaker: It's been pretty breathless.
Speaker: So I'm shooting a lot and I'm just weary.
Speaker: But also, you know, I've had some challenging sessions, quite honestly, a lot of them have felt like family therapy.
Speaker: And I
Speaker: where you're just facing that headwind and you're just trying to make the pieces come together and I'm dual shooting photos and films and so I'm already multitasking like crazy and now I'm dealing with a dear boy who's terrified of airplanes and we're only five miles from an airfield you know.
Speaker: who is melting down every five minutes.
Speaker: And you know what?
Speaker: What does that do for me though?
Speaker: Like as I'm going through this fall and I'm having one difficult challenge after another.
Speaker: I even disappointed a client two weeks ago because I didn't reschedule an indoor home shoot on a rainy day.
Speaker: And she was just really grieved about that.
Speaker: And so I'm trying to make up for that.
Speaker: And that hurts my heart.
Speaker: I want to meet her expectations.
Speaker: And yet again, I'm reminded humbly how I failed her and
Speaker: I failed her and I have failed other clients and that breaks my heart.
Speaker: But what those experiences do are so shaping for me.
Speaker: And it would be really easy to write off the family with this anxiety ridden boy to be like, I can't work with this, right?
Speaker: Like my art is more deserving of...
Speaker: you know, compliant kids or, you know, like things should flow better.
Speaker: Maybe I won't book them next year.
Speaker: If I have lots of inquiries, I guess I'm challenging us to see it differently.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And showing up that night, I created a context for that, that anxiety to get hugged out of him.
Speaker: And at one point in the session, I just put my camera down and I said to him,
Speaker: I know you're having big feelings right now and I'm okay with that.
Speaker: I want you to feel comfortable with me to express those big feelings.
Speaker: And I am so sorry that these scary planes keep going overhead.
Speaker: If we could jump in the car and get away from them, I would, but the sun is going down.
Speaker: You can show me how big you're brave is if you feel like it, but if you don't feel it, you don't have to smile and you don't have to play along.
Speaker: you know, and just to be able to, to not, to make that kid feel seen and accepted with my words and my presence.
Speaker: And also to have the mom hear those words.
Speaker: Like, I don't say this to pat myself on the back.
Speaker: I was so weary.
Speaker: I'm like, I just made one good, easy session and I didn't get it.
Speaker: And that was hard.
Speaker: But it's shaping and our clients are just gifts.
Speaker: They're dear gifts.
Speaker: And when we see that,
Speaker: it stands to change us as humans.
Speaker: We have this incredible capacity to love.
Speaker: And my challenge for photographers is like, just hang tight to that purpose that drove you into business.
Speaker: I really think that's, what's gonna, it's not what your success will hinge on, right?
Speaker: You can have this crazy successful business and not listen to a word I say, but that's,
Speaker: But is that going to lead you to that deeper fulfillment we all long for in the work we produce?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's such a, it can be so hard sometimes to think about like the long-term goals
Speaker: thing like what are we achieving you know like in your in your talk you spoke about like when you when you finish that last film when you finish that last gallery knowing this is the last one you're ever going to do like how do you want to feel when that happens what kind of a legacy and it's such a um I think it's something that it's very easy to not think about but I think it it's it's
Speaker: you know i'd never thought about that until you mentioned it at the retreat and then and again it's something that it's percolated in my brain for the last couple of months like yeah what what is that like when when all is said and done when i make that last film for a family what what legacy do i want those films that i've made to have you know um
Speaker: And it's not about, and at the end of the, for me, and I've really thought about, you know, it's not about me.
Speaker: I don't want the legacy to be about the films that I made and how good they were and how good a filmmaker I was or whatever.
Speaker: The legacy that I want those films to be is that, you know,
Speaker: They showed people they are time capsules and they are visual records of people who existed, of people who were loved.
Speaker: It's basically powerful.
Speaker: And of people who will be missed when they're gone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, you're like, you're contributing to like the record of humanity.
Speaker: It's just amazing.
Speaker: I want them to be remembered.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's, you know, and that's not the, that's not the same purpose for everyone, but for me, that's my purpose.
Speaker: And it was really, it's really, you know, helping me to think about like, what I want to do going forward.
Speaker: How do I want to run this business?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I really, I encourage people who are listening, you know, if you haven't thought about this before, you know, maybe have a think about it and see where those thoughts lead you.
Speaker: If something that you've heard us talk about is, you know, sparked something in your, you felt a bit of resistance to it, like, don't be scared of that.
Speaker: Like sit down and examine it and think, you know, like why am I resisting this and where could it lead me and how could it make sense?
Speaker: the work that I produce better how could it make how I run my business better how could it make how I serve my clients better um and and take what you need I always say that you know running a business is like parenting you know there are a million different ways to do it and everybody has advice
Speaker: on the way to do it and what you need to do is you need to listen to everything that you can and then just take the bits that speak to you exactly yeah and and and pass all of this if it doesn't I think the challenge is just to like stay open maybe to to um bearing new points um yeah I want to leave like with a story it's this such a strong imagery I didn't get to share this story in the talk so now it feels like there's a space
Speaker: Um, so, you know, Jenny in the network and our film and life network, she's a fellow filmmaker out of Nashville.
Speaker: Um, she had a session that just really spoke to my heart.
Speaker: And I asked actually, if I would have permission to share it during the talk.
Speaker: And then when I ran out of time, I never thought I could fill an hour and a half.
Speaker: And I did.
Speaker: The time goes so much quicker than you think.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: It was like something hit play in me and I woke up at the end.
Speaker: But any case, she had this session that has just stayed with me.
Speaker: She photographed this lovely woman, Bryson, young, beautiful, who was dying of an immune disorder.
Speaker: Basically, her body was like in constant anaphylaxis, right?
Speaker: So everything caused her body to just like overreact, go into like big inflammation.
Speaker: And in the call with the mother of this woman, so I guess the mother was the client and she booked her because her daughter was dying.
Speaker: The mother said, this is gonna feel like a really unusual session.
Speaker: You're gonna arrive, but you're gonna need to take off your clothes.
Speaker: You're gonna need to shower in Bryson's apartment.
Speaker: You're gonna need to put on clothes that we've laundered in special detergents.
Speaker: You'll have to remove all hair products, makeup,
Speaker: and go into that session in that manner.
Speaker: That's the only way, like she's already hanging onto life, but completely clean slate.
Speaker: Completely.
Speaker: Like it's the only way that you're gonna spare her a reaction.
Speaker: Jenny of course was like, yes, like sign me up, I'll do this.
Speaker: But that image for me of Jenny going into that session, and I have had these deathbed sessions and they are shaping informative and they are amazing.
Speaker: I definitely recommend like nothing will like till the soil of your heart like that because that veil is so thin between the here and hereafter.
Speaker: But in any case, so that image for me of Jenny going in and not her own clothes, like ill fitting clothes, no makeup, her hair is wet, right?
Speaker: She is stripped down as a photographer, all the things that make us feel powerful, right?
Speaker: Um, and on top of our game, like she didn't have, all she had was an open heart and a camera.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I want to be Jenny.
Speaker: I want to be that.
Speaker: I want to go into a session.
Speaker: So stripped of, of my ego in a sense, right.
Speaker: That I am just, my heart's flailed open for, for story because the human story is all leading in one direction.
Speaker: Like we're all walking each other home.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So, yep.
Speaker: If we see every client like Jenny saw Bryson, what will that do to our business?
Speaker: What will it do to our creativity?
Speaker: What will it do to us humans?
Speaker: Because right now we are in a culture where everyone to the right is like far right.
Speaker: And everyone one step to the left is far left polarized all over the place, right?
Speaker: What would it do to see that person who sees their world a little different as the woman dying in bed?
Speaker: from a disease she couldn't conquer, right?
Speaker: Like, there's so much big picture here for us.
Speaker: And I'm sorry, but as creatives, like we have that heart that can wrestle with these questions.
Speaker: Like we're made for these questions.
Speaker: And I think that's the crux of it right there.
Speaker: I think when you can run any kind of business in any kind of way, but when you strip...
Speaker: everything else away and and take all of that away and all of the expectations and you just bring it down to you and a camera and witnessing what's in front of you and recording that for the people who who love those people that's
Speaker: you know that's what it's about and i think if you kind of then build your business around that and no matter in what way it is whether you're shooting in a studio with um you know backdrops or posed or you've got a beautiful client wardrobe or you're going in completely documentary style i think at the end of the day when we're stripping ourselves of right down to just being that camera that's where you know we're able to really serve our clients and that's where i think the very best photographers the ones that create such beautiful work
Speaker: in whatever genre and in whatever way they're really doing that and I think that that's something that we can all you know think about and think about how we can do that for our clients and going forward yeah and I'd argue further that beautiful work can be done if you never ascribe to any of this your art can be
Speaker: will knock my socks off regardless right um i just i just hope for you the satisfaction i have i feel you know and and the deep deep underlying purpose i i would hope that for you if you don't hope it for yourself there's other ways to find it it doesn't have to be you know just ascribing to all this but i do i have to think of like you know christmas is coming soon and i always think of that scene in the christmas carol where like marley comes to scrooge right and he's
Speaker: all shackled by like, I don't know, his agony, you know, what he'd forged himself for life.
Speaker: And he says, mankind was my business.
Speaker: The common welfare was my business.
Speaker: Charity, mercy, forbearance, benevolence were all my business.
Speaker: You know that scene?
Speaker: And the dealings of my trade were by the drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business.
Speaker: And I just like,
Speaker: I don't want to find out too late that truth.
Speaker: You know, I want to live that every single day.
Speaker: Marley's truth.
Speaker: I want to live out in business from here to the day I do push back from my computer and send them the last gallery.
Speaker: I really, you know, our clients are art and, and there's such a,
Speaker: freedom and seeing them that way and just kind of staying small in our picture I just want to be seen as art when I hire a photographer right yeah yeah yeah exactly I love it I love chatting with you about this
Speaker: And for those of you who are listening, you know, even if you can't come to Unfiltered in 2024 or, you know, 2025 even, like if you can find a way to get to something that will allow you to have this time to sit and think about these questions and ask.
Speaker: And talk about it with other people that are running businesses and whatever.
Speaker: I really encourage you to do it.
Speaker: If you are thinking about coming to Unfiltered, you know, we have the wait list on the website, unfiltered.au.
Speaker: Because, you know, it's not just about like having a three-day, four-day junket.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's about really having a chance to sit and think about these big questions and, you know, reflect on your life and on your business and what you want.
Speaker: And, you know, it's always good, I think, and beneficial to take that time to do that and ask those questions of yourself.
Speaker: And it'll make you a better person.
Speaker: It'll make you a better mother.
Speaker: It'll make you a better parent.
Speaker: It will make you a better business owner.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: it'd probably just make you a better person.
Speaker: Basically, if you come to Unfiltered, you'll become a better person.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: Can that be your tagline?
Speaker: Sign me up.
Speaker: Pick my money.
Speaker: That's a big claim.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: It's a big claim.
Speaker: Oh, we're just all impressed.
Speaker: Thank you so much for chatting with us, Amy.
Speaker: Thank you, Kylie.
Speaker: Before you go, I'd love to say...
Speaker: I'd love to ask you just if anyone out there is thinking about and grappling with these questions, what would be your, you know, starting point?
Speaker: I know that's a big question.
Speaker: I'm putting you on the spot.
Speaker: You were breaking up right there.
Speaker: So let me make sure I heard it.
Speaker: What, if you're grappling with this question, what would be your starting point is what I heard.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, what would you say to people to just, you know, what would be their first step?
Speaker: Oh, I love that.
Speaker: Um, I would write down your expectations, the expectations you bring into sessions.
Speaker: You know, this could be that, you know, dad leaves his phone in the pocket, that the family's beautifully connected, that they actually read your client guide, um,
Speaker: that they send you those three paragraphs of things that they write that review, you know, like just write it out.
Speaker: You'll be surprised.
Speaker: I did this.
Speaker: Like, you'll be surprised how many expectations you're carrying in your heart and bringing into sessions.
Speaker: And potentially those, those expectations I would argue are clouding your vision.
Speaker: So I think awareness is the first step.
Speaker: I would encourage you to sit before a session and just really take pause, like just kind of,
Speaker: create like the sacred space to like, just really reflect on the family and what you learned to them in your questionnaire.
Speaker: Um, think about this family and a way you think about your family hopes and dreams and, um, tied up and, you know, they're rascally kids.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Think about a marriage you know nothing about, but you hope the best for is the foundation of that family.
Speaker: Just dwell, actually dwell on them.
Speaker: Don't think about them when they show up.
Speaker: Think about them.
Speaker: Prevision a family, not the perfect family, just prevision what you've learned about them in your questionnaire so that you've almost downloaded them into your heart before they even show up.
Speaker: In doing that, I find whatever, however...
Speaker: they appear, you know, whatever mood their kids are in, whatever, honestly, mood the husband and wife are in, as you know, like how many couples fight on the way to a session and it's so clear.
Speaker: So like, um,
Speaker: Like, I'm just, I'm already in.
Speaker: I'm like, I'm all in on these people before, you know, when I've taken that time and I've forced out all of my stuff, you know, I've kind of checked my baggage at the door.
Speaker: And then during the session, like, just take yourself aside in a way that you have to as a parent all the time, right?
Speaker: Like we're always like reacting in non-productive ways to our kids.
Speaker: What are those internal reactions?
Speaker: Obviously we're hiding it because we're being professional.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But what are those little internal like negative emotions that are
Speaker: bubbling just beneath the surface, because if you don't take those to task quick, like your work may suffer.
Speaker: Maybe it doesn't.
Speaker: That's what I'm really trying to drive this point home.
Speaker: Your work may not suffer, but your heart will harden guaranteed, you know, and that hardened more hardened, even if it's a tiny bit more hardened heart, you're going to take into the next session and the next.
Speaker: And if, if you think of that, like every session you're building just a little more of a callus, where does that land you in 10 years?
Speaker: So, um,
Speaker: And then, you know, and then after the session, you're at it again, because now you're having to replay.
Speaker: Like all of these images are scrolling by you.
Speaker: You're editing a film for 20 hours and like you're replaying in your mind all the things, all the disappointments that, you know, the things that went south and didn't go as planned.
Speaker: And again, just set it aside, write it on a piece of paper, rip it up, whatever it takes.
Speaker: Like just be so, so very...
Speaker: I think we're so mindful of the art, but we forget that that art comes from a deep place and when we nurture that deep place in these ways like I think good art will still be produced regardless but like yeah.
Speaker: maybe truer art that's, I don't know, authentic to the family.
Speaker: It's hard to say that.
Speaker: I don't want to draw those lines.
Speaker: I don't think it's a direct line.
Speaker: You know, I just think you're going to be a generally a happier business owner.
Speaker: How about that?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's what we don't want.
Speaker: That's really what we want because this is, yeah, we spend too many hours at it not to love.
Speaker: It's not being enchanted with our businesses.
Speaker: That's not a happy place.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker: Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Amy.
Speaker: I know that, you know, for a lot of people, it's something that they maybe haven't thought about.
Speaker: It's not a concept that has kind of crossed their mind.
Speaker: And I think it's so great to be able to share that and just give people an opportunity to, you know, think about their business and how they run it and how they deal with their clients in maybe a way they haven't thought about before, because that's always a good thing.
Speaker: Yeah, it's good for me to challenge but all of this but thank you for the conversation.
Speaker: No worries.
Speaker: And for those of you again, who are unsure about how this is going feel free to reach out to Amy or I, you know, if you're an Academy member, we'd love to chat about this more in the Academy.
Speaker: You know, we're always happy to chat so you can
Speaker: reach out to us in the academy or via our websites or social medias all that it'll be in the show notes but yeah thank you amy and um hopefully we will chat again soon look forward to that thank you
