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Rethinking Time: How a 4-Day Workweek Can Transform Mental Healthcare
24 Plays1 month ago
My guests this week are Carrie Cadwell and Jason Cadwell from 4C Health. We talked about 4C's remarkable and remarkably successful transition to a four-day workweek. a transition that has improved workforce recruitment and retention while also challenging traditional assumptions about productivity and time in the mental health field.
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Transcript
Innovations in Behavioral Health Timing
00:00:14
Speaker
I'm a sucker for time travel science fiction. Show me a book or a movie that combines a thriller plot with trippy questions about the nature of time and existence, I'm sold.
00:00:26
Speaker
It's probably no coincidence then that my first two podcast episodes feature behavioral health innovators who are questioning the field's entire relationship with the notion of time.
Transition to a Four-Day Workweek
00:00:36
Speaker
My first episode was about single session interventions, which fundamentally call into question longstanding assumptions about the ideal duration and frequency of behavioral health interventions.
00:00:48
Speaker
This episode features Carrie Cadwell and Jason Cadwell, the CEO and CFO of 4C Health, a community mental health center and certified community behavioral health clinic operating primarily in rural north central Indiana.
00:01:04
Speaker
We talked about 4C's remarkable and remarkably successful transition to a four-day workweek. a transition that has improved workforce recruitment and retention and dramatically increased
00:01:32
Speaker
Hi, Carrie. Hi, Jason. How are you? Doing well. Yourself? Great. Thank
Overview of 4C Health Services
00:01:38
Speaker
you. doing good. Thank you so much for joining. So, you know, before we we jump into our conversation, I was wondering if you both could introduce yourselves. We'll start with Jason and then move over to Kerry.
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, Jason Cadwell. I'm the chief financial as well as the chief administrative officer at 4C Health. I've been with the agency since early in 2013, so guess little over 12 years
00:02:03
Speaker
great Hi, I'm Dr. Carrie Cadwell. um I like to say I'm a clinical psychologist by trade, although I don't wear that hat a ton anymore. um I'm the CEO of 4C Health. I've been with the organization since about 2014, I think it was.
00:02:19
Speaker
it And Carrie, can you give us a really quick overview of what 4C Health is? I can. These days I like to say, what aren't we? um So we are a community mental health center located in ah north so North and North Central Indiana.
00:02:35
Speaker
As a community mental health center, we also recently became a designated certified community behavioral health center for the pilot here in the state of Indiana.
00:02:47
Speaker
ah We also um embarked upon primary care services in this last year, and then we have long provided inpatient psychiatric unit for our rural area.
00:03:02
Speaker
And for about the last four to five years have been a mobile crisis, twenty four seven mobile crisis provider in our region, along with what we call psychiatric urgent care. And that the state often refers to as crisis receiving and stabilization services.
00:03:18
Speaker
So we like to say in our system, Jay, it's like a jack of all trades for sure. Great.
4C Health's Innovative Approach
00:03:24
Speaker
So, you know, I invited Carrie and Jason, you know, who for the record are not related or married, just happened to be, you know, both last name Cadwell. um You know, I invited them on because, you know, now that I'm no longer, you know, the state mental health director, you know, I can, I can share that, you know, I do have favorites among, among my providers and ah you know, 4C was consistently just one of my favorites largely because of you know, how, how you all embraced,
00:03:51
Speaker
change and innovation and, you know, really, really focused on, you know, what we could do as opposed to, you know, what, what our limitations were. And so, you know, i really feel like you exemplified, you know, the idea of sort of like abundance and innovation, you know, instead of, you know, kind of scarcity and stagnation. And so that's why, you know, i' I've invited them on to to talk primarily about their incredible implementation of the four day work week, you know, which we'll dive into here in a second, but Carrie, i thought maybe first you could,
00:04:20
Speaker
touch on your perspective of Indiana's behavioral health transformation as a provider.
Indiana's Behavioral Health Transformation
00:04:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's, I think it's a really good thing. um Just from a couple of vantage points. ah Number one, i think the biggest dilemma or just historical challenges for the community mental health center system in the state and actually nationally is that there just aren't any consistent ways to measure the ah the care, measure the quality. And so, you know, it's kind of like a little bit of like every man for himself. What I measure is what I measure. What somebody else measures is what they measure.
00:04:59
Speaker
And so I think one of the really neat things about it is, is that it's going to create more of the ability to have that consistent kind of quality metric assessment. So, you know, in my mind, consumers then can be a little bit more informed if we can make it that simple for folks.
00:05:16
Speaker
to understand, you know, the system that they're going into or the provider that they're choosing. ah Number two, in the our system, it's the idea of putting care coordination at the center of everything um is a pretty massive change.
00:05:33
Speaker
Not to say that care coordination doesn't have, and it's not happening. ah You know, healthcare in general struggles with care coordination, period, right? I mean, all of us as you know, adults know how many times we served as our own families care coordinators, um, you know, whether it's our children or our own parents.
00:05:52
Speaker
But I think what this model does is really kind of says, Hey, listen, we, we really need to work really strongly at becoming ah the best we can possibly become ah care coordination so that ultimately, you know, uh,
00:06:10
Speaker
people don't find themselves feeling like they have, one, nobody advocating, nobody following the entire care journey. And they end up by default then in four or five or six different systems and none of them are talking to each other and nobody's holding all that information. So I mean, from that perspective, I think it's really awesome. I think the final thing I'd say on that is it really helps support And Jay, you use this terminology, like moving from this scarcity perspective um to one of maybe thriving.
00:06:43
Speaker
And I think it, you know, i like to say it for C and Jason, you, you know. could echo something on this front. I like to say that we are the best at doing the most with the least. And so that's not a bad thing, but there are limits to, you know, just how much you can do under that situation.
Effective Transition Strategies
00:07:01
Speaker
um And so I feel like also just the changes structurally that occur in how reimbursement works, how things get funded, really makes it so that a lot of these additional things like achieving better quality and care and consistency like care coordination, frankly, it just makes it more possible to do all those things. So, I mean, that's that's my take. um Jason, I don't know if you would add anything to that.
00:07:28
Speaker
No, I would agree with that. And I think, you know the the you know, the cherry on top of this Sunday really is, ah you know, how reimbursement modeling will be different under CCBHC. But that shouldn't, you know, take away from the fact that you have to have a lot of hard work that goes into really making sure that your house is in order.
00:07:46
Speaker
Um, really to Carrie's point, doing a lot with a little, but also making sure that you're constantly evaluating waste within your agency. And so, um, a lot of that is what, you know, was the by-product of what allowed for us to easily transition, I feel like into the four day work week.
00:08:03
Speaker
Yeah. Fantastic segue. And, you know, let's, let's jump into the four day work week and, you know, i I don't think it was just a matter of sort of branding synergy with 4C and 4Day. I think, uh,
00:08:14
Speaker
you know, there was a lot of thought that went behind this this transition. So, you know, Jason, maybe i I could ask you to just think about or or or talk about the the origins of the idea, you know, kind of like what what your initial reaction was. the You know, and you said something in our prep meeting about, you know, rethinking the the notion of time. So I'd love for you to elaborate on that.
00:08:35
Speaker
Sure. and don't know, Carrie, do you want to take the time issue and then I can lead into, I know you're you're the you're the time expert or I can i can take it and you can fill in any gaps. Well, I think that's it's a combo deal because I think it's like one from a provider side.
00:08:49
Speaker
know what I mean? I can talk about that, but Jason, what what if you mentioned about, you know, that whole like work is a thing that you do, not a place that you go and the value of, know what I mean? How do you drive value and outcomes? And is that really based upon the time you spend in a seat?
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, for us, you know, we're rural as you know, the being rural with comes with challenges and challenges is access to resources. And specifically, that would be human capital. Right.
00:09:16
Speaker
State of Indiana has challenges across the state, but even rurally, it's even iy more so. So when we embarked on that journey, when it came on board back in 2012, we were really trying to focus in on work really being something that you do, not a place that you essentially go, as Kerry said, um because we had to be willing and leverage technology to access a workforce that wasn't just predominantly within our little four counties at that time.
00:09:42
Speaker
So we we we had we had agreements with, you know, staff that would be as far away as Alaska doing some virtual care. And so when we really started to fine tune that and looking in and say, hey, you know, that actually, this is working. We're not seeing any reduction in quality.
00:09:58
Speaker
um You know, we're we're still able to work together as a team. There was no impacts there. really started to focus then on from from you know those vantage points that really starts, how can we expand this? How can we make this much larger?
Rural Challenges and Flexible Work Models
00:10:10
Speaker
And that was even prior to the pandemic. Then when the pandemic hit, we really didn't have a say in how work was going to get done. right We had to think creatively. We had to think outside the box.
00:10:21
Speaker
So we had to pivot very quickly and we started to expand upon you know virtual care options or you know from our admin departments, work can be done. ah you know, in a hybrid environment as opposed to having to come into the office.
00:10:34
Speaker
And so really learning from, I think, all the way back from 2012 and then working and then through the pandemic really set the stage, I feel like, for for care and or work to be able to be done from anywhere, whether that's in an office, in home or on the face of the moon, it really didn't matter at that point.
00:10:52
Speaker
ah So I think really, if from a foundational of how we got to where we are, I feel like the models of how we work, where we work was really started to be developed based upon the need to have access to providers all the way back to 2012, 13.
00:11:07
Speaker
but then also having to stay alive during that pandemic and and continuing to provide care. Yeah. And I, I'm just going to add that I think that one of the things that I have literally heard for decades now from Jason is, you know, work is a thing that you do, not a place that you go.
00:11:25
Speaker
And so, you know, even, that whole concept of, you know, so even if you work 40 hours, do you actually get the outcomes and the values? So some people say, hey, well, you have to work the 40 and we get most out of you at 40. Well, no, not necessarily. Research hasn't supported that. you know what mean? The amount of time that's spent in you know wasteful conversations or wasteful long meetings that have no purpose, 2000 emails.
00:11:51
Speaker
So time has always been something that we've questioned from that front. And then as a provider, like I can, I have to take that back to when I was in private practice and I decided to go into a physician's office Jay and I started doing more like integrated behavioral health. And it was like, well, so I can see the same patient, the same problem.
00:12:12
Speaker
And it's acceptable for me to see that person for 15 minutes when I'm in a primary care office, ah do the same intervention, get the same outcomes. But when I walk back over to my traditional behavioral health office, somehow it's heresy.
00:12:28
Speaker
If I do that same thing, you know, it's each you have to see him for 45 minutes. So I think in general, like whether it's on the behavioral health or just business in general, like we just would believe that there is really that people tie things to time and not everything is really based on time. Right. And I mean, it's really based on what what are you seeking? What are the outcomes you want? And how you get there could be done a million different ways,
Cultural Impact of a Four-Day Workweek
00:12:54
Speaker
really, I guess, is our thought.
00:12:56
Speaker
And I'll add a little bit. I'm sorry, can I ask a follow up on the on the the physician versus versus psychotherapist office? Just how much and this may be impossible question answer, but how much of that is driven by the sort of incentives for reimbursement versus, you know, notions of of of care? Like, you know, what but what what are the origins of that being heresy in the psychotherapy office?
00:13:18
Speaker
Well, as ah I don't think actually it has really anything to do with reimbursement rates, because when you're in private practice, it's not like there's some extra incentive to see somebody for 45 to 50 minutes. Right.
00:13:29
Speaker
um You know, technically speaking, when you're in that world. you know you're probably better off if you were seeing somebody for 15 minutes. You know mean? Frankly, it it comes down to this idea that in my mind, there are things that are not challengeable. There are these sacred cows.
00:13:44
Speaker
You do psychotherapy for 50 minutes, right? You do this for this. we work You work in an office for 40 hours. You know what It's just wherever it is, it's just these sacred cows, these beliefs we have that you just hold on to with no real continuous rationale and and an unwillingness to then challenge those.
00:14:04
Speaker
And when you do, people are like in disbelief. I mean, that's totally, I think what we find with four day work week is it's total disbelief. Oh, there's no way it can work. I mean, honestly, Jason, how many times have you heard from somebody you're consulting with?
00:14:19
Speaker
Like, how is this even possible? Or you get looks of like, oh, we're it's not even we can't do this. Yeah, at least once or twice a week. And it is quite shocking that you can hear that level from a C-suite executive that says, well, how do I know that they're they're working?
00:14:35
Speaker
Or I've even heard as of recent that, you know, what what are we just breeding a lazy workforce? And my jaw usually hits the floor because that can't be further from the truth that. you know Under a four-day workweek model, I would say that you're working more intently, but you're doing it more effectively and efficiently ah with the same amount of outcome. And so, yes, I would say that those two barriers constantly are the first couple of questions out of somebody's mouth when when they're when they're posed with the can this work or um you know the four-day workweek concept.
00:15:08
Speaker
Great. And so I want to jump around a little bit because i think this is a really great point to to bring up the the outcomes, right? So, you know, spoiler alert, you all have successfully implemented four-day work. We can, we'll kind of get to some of the implementation challenges, but what is, what has this resulted in? Do
00:15:29
Speaker
you want to jump in, Jason? Oh, I'm sorry. i wasn't sure. So for us, you know, I think for us, it's been throughput um and throughput in healthcare is is is important. And it's even more important, especially in a rural environment,
00:15:43
Speaker
when you you know you're you you have demand, but you may not have the number of providers to provide that supply. And so by focusing on practice management models that are really focused on eliminating all the unnecessary waste that comes with a traditional 40-hour work week, our providers can be in and they can be seeing patients more effectively and more efficiently, leveraging technology, AI, concurrent documentation, those things. and so Where in the old old models where, you know, the one hour therapy sessions and whatnot, we're we're potentially able to get, you know, sometimes two or three individuals through the same sessions ah without overburdening, I feel like, the provider provider administrative duties.
00:16:24
Speaker
And so um I think for us, that that intent on continuing to move to the four day really focused on that deep focused work, which requires having very, I think, achievable um um practice management models. And I'm going to use the word probably for the fifth time in a row, but it really, really focuses on creating that ah that throughput ah through the leveraging of AI technology, um but also making sure that you're not jeopardizing any quality in care as well.
00:16:54
Speaker
Yeah. And I would just add to that, that, you know, um I picked up two things, you know, from this journey, and that is ah the amount of initial an ongoing effort that you have to put into ah understanding ah that the value of every minute you have.
00:17:14
Speaker
Okay. So like I say, we have returned. That's ah one stat I keep in my head, which I think is above all the most important one. We have returned over 400,000 hours to our employees' lives over two and a half years.
00:17:30
Speaker
Time for family, time to pursue education. I don't know, time to do the laundry, right? Time for an appointment, time to do whatever it is that gives them life. Simultaneously, not dropping the ball on anything we do.
00:17:45
Speaker
Our access is better than ever. Our employee base and numbers are better than ever. Our, you know, throughput is better than ever. We have to chronically remind, even I get reminded about it 20 times a day, you know, don't send another email.
00:17:59
Speaker
Why are you on a meeting for one hour? Like we need to be on that meeting for 30 minutes. Wait a second. Why is 30 minutes so long? what Why not do this in 15 minutes? I mean, Jay, at every turn,
00:18:10
Speaker
the organization has to remind itself about ah that every minute counts. And when you do that and you are most effective with your minutes, not your hours and your weeks and your months,
00:18:24
Speaker
then you give back something that has no price tag to it, right? Which is all of these hours back to people. And there is no, Jason, I think you've talked about this, like there's no amount of HR package that, you know what mean, or benefits package that could even remotely meet that value.
00:18:43
Speaker
That's correct. And, you know, what's nice about this too is it embedded in this model or this philosophy is almost like an audit tool. Because, you know, it has to start at the top with its leadership. The leadership has to believe in it. The leadership has to carry it out every day.
00:18:57
Speaker
But because our workforce, and I think that the last survey we've had, 96% of um our so our staff said they never want to return to a five-day work week. And that's an overwhelming, I mean, I was shocked when I saw that percentage.
00:19:11
Speaker
And as
Self-Audit and Accountability
00:19:12
Speaker
a result of that, we all work together as a team to keep each other honest, to keep each other accountable, to you know challenge one another to work more effectively and efficiently, because we don't want to lose the ability to continue to have that four-day work week. And so what's nice by by challenging ourselves, we get better outcomes.
00:19:31
Speaker
We have better client satisfaction. We have better internal satisfaction with our staff. Our business operations run lean, ah very effective and very efficient. And again, all of that is happening in real time 24-7 because none of our staff want to ever have to have that conversation of having to return to the office or return to that fifth day.
00:19:52
Speaker
So um so it's it's kind of nice to have that embedded tool in there that's constantly auditing itself and making sure that we don't deviate from that four-day workweek philosophy. Yeah. Wow.
00:20:03
Speaker
And Carrie, thank you for reminding us of the the human piece of this. so I'll sort of share Like I kind of knew you were onto something when, you know, one of your staff would post on social media, like pictures of her and her family, you know, going camping on, on a Friday and just, you know, just saying how, how, how incredible it was to have that ability to, you know, to, to go to do that with her family. And so the the human part of this is so important. And and Jason, now I want to,
00:20:30
Speaker
I want to say something and and and you know I want you to react to it however you know however however you you want to hear. But you know it seems like what you're describing is something that's almost all upside, right? With with the caveat being that it takes a ton of work and and consistent and and diligent focus and and and persistence to to get that done. But you know from like from an operational or financial perspective, you know are there downsides or is this almost all upside?
00:20:58
Speaker
i don't I really don't. um i have not seen any true ah downside. i would say the only real downside that someone could perceive is, you're right, it does take some foundational work.
00:21:10
Speaker
And luckily, when we embarked on on a restructuring of this entire company back in 2012 and 13, our focus was on getting the house in order, unbeknownst that we were working towards a potential four day work week.
00:21:24
Speaker
We had to do a lot with a little. Right. We knew that our reimbursement rates in the state really weren't changing much. We knew that we weren't having this flood of providers coming in the door. And so we really had to work very intently and hard to eliminate waste. And that takes a lot of work, right? There's a lot of meetings that have to take place to break old habits.
00:21:43
Speaker
And with old habits not willing to be ah broken, ah sometimes you can feel isolated and alone. People might perceive that as a disadvantage. You also might experience some turnover.
00:21:55
Speaker
ah replacing some long tenured positions, right? ah That's not easy for an organization, but you know you have to make the sacrifice in order to have a better outcome and and into tomorrow. So From a disadvantage standpoint, if you want to call it that, I would say most of that comes with getting ready to embark on the four day work week.
00:22:13
Speaker
I wish I had a bag of magic beans to give you, but I don't. It's not a magic bean scenario. You have to work hard. You have to be willing to make, you know suffer some loss in order to have some gains. But once you have that foundation stabilized,
00:22:27
Speaker
you've got the culture that's bought into it. I really feel like that from that moment forward, there really is nothing but an upside potential. Yeah. i And magic beans, of course, you know come from a fairy tale. So you know they dont don't really exist, right?
00:22:42
Speaker
That's correct.
Consulting and Skepticism of Four-Day Workweek
00:22:43
Speaker
you know just kind of final Final broad question here to to either or both of you. you know you've You've mentioned, Jason, that you consult a lot with other providers. And I know, Kerry, you've talked about conversations with with other providers. So I guess a two part question, you know, number one, what is, what is the general advice that you give ah providers? And then number two, you know, what are some of the reactions that you got when you talk to them about this?
00:23:08
Speaker
Carrie, me or you? Here, I'll, I'll jump in. Jason, you, you, you have probably more experience on just the consulting, you know, with all sorts of different groups. I think the shocking thing that I am always interested in uh,
00:23:22
Speaker
ah I think we kind of alluded to this earlier. It's the automatic, it's not possible. Like it's the the number of people I've had a conversation and they do think there must be some magic beans that happened at 4C Health that would have even created the opportunity. And the truth is, is that it was created because we said, okay, let's find a way, right? Right.
00:23:48
Speaker
I mean, like, and maybe at some point, I'll tell the story about how this all unfolded, right? But it is, i think it's what what differentiates us from when we're trying to explain it to some other groups is is whether it's our board, it's our leadership, it's whatever. It is just an openness to doing something different um that frankly, define and from leadership on, that really, I think, defines the success. And so when I hear somebody and they say, oh, that was possible for you, but it's not possible for me. I'm like, listen, we should be the the the the mecca of how possible it is. We are a behavioral health provider in a rural area that has had little to no ability to grab staff, right? And I mean, because we're in a rural area and yet we are literally the only major behavioral health employer of our size in the nation, right?
00:24:45
Speaker
Who has done this right? You know And so the fact that it's in rural Indiana, first, I think we should have a lot of pride about that. But number two, I'm saying if we can do it, there's no way that other people can't do it.
00:24:59
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I would agree with Kerry. That is probably the one thing that I hear with it very early in the meeting is, you know, this has to be a fad. what What rules are you breaking? we're not.
00:25:12
Speaker
I mean, Jay, you've known 4C for quite some time. And I would say whether it's our audits or data is our outcome, we've been very transparent. We show that information. We gladly provide We're not doing anything shady. There's nothing happening under the radar.
00:25:26
Speaker
And from like a fiscal stability standpoint, again, our data is transparent. You can find our audits on our website. You can go on any website and get 990s. I mean, it's all there. So the concept that it says it can't work or you must be doing something devious is just false when you have all of that information, you know, presented and transparent to you.
00:25:46
Speaker
But I would say that is that has to be the number one thing that comes out of that. It's like our system is too large. It won't work. um Our providers dictate how they practice. We don't run an a hospital or an agency as if operations is operations, as clinic is clinic.
00:26:01
Speaker
And that's not how we do things here. The business has to run as the business should. Providers need to make their own practice judgments and how they want to practice. We do not get into those lanes. um But if you have to, again, if you want to work for a company like 4C or four-day workweek employer, you have to understand which lane you're in and you have to know when to get out of that lane and when to stay in that lane.
00:26:22
Speaker
So that might have been of an expansive answer to your question. I may not have even answered your question, but I can answer any of those follow-ups. Yeah, that was great. i mean, that's sort of like an inverse, you know, New York, New York, right? If you can make it in rural Indiana behavioral health, you can make it anywhere, right? That's probably the message.
00:26:38
Speaker
I like that.
Leadership and Innovation Importance
00:26:40
Speaker
And so, okay, wonderful. Well, you know, do either of you have any kind of closing words?
00:26:46
Speaker
Well, I think mine would simply be that, It is probably the single best thing. Like if I look at my career longer term and I was not like a person. The first time Jason brought this up in a group with HR and all our executives, you know, I think my mouth about hit the floor. i knew we were doing it then, and but I was like, oh, my gosh, like, is this even possible? Right. and I mean,
00:27:14
Speaker
And I had to go back and even challenge my own. And I'm not usually a hesitant person. Like, why am I hesitant? Right. and I mean, what is that about? And yet now we're going to look at this like this is just a way of life for 4C.
00:27:26
Speaker
Like, I just I don't know. I don't even remember. ah Half of most all of our staff wouldn't even remember. What does it mean to work 40 hours? And it's funny that people would say, oh we can't do that. But yet, if you look at, you know, hospitals and nurses, you know what mean? Like most of them are working 36 hours per week. And at some point, that was probably heresy. You know what mean? Working 40 hours per week, eight hour shifts.
00:27:51
Speaker
So to me, the the message is, Don't just assume just because something has been this way forever that it should remain that way forever and infinity. That's probably the single biggest message for me. Be open to doing something different.
00:28:05
Speaker
And if you're a leader that is not open to doing something different, then you really stop you have to stop and think about whether or not you are really the one who is stopping your company's success and your company's stability and its future for the long run.
00:28:20
Speaker
Jason, what anything you want to add?
Seeking Operational Efficiencies
00:28:22
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that's all that's that I would agree. And, you know, and I've said since the beginning, you know, this concept may not be for everyone, right? There are just some some industries that, you know, this potentially cannot work.
00:28:35
Speaker
But I do feel like embedded within every industry, there is a way to find effectiveness and efficiencies more than you think you have today that could allow for more flexibility, more time to be able to be given back.
00:28:50
Speaker
And so, um you know, I have said that, you know, over and over again. um And I do feel like that really truly is kind of like, you know, the hallmark there as to what is possible um under a four day work week or, you know, in some cases, some people working a three day work week.
00:29:07
Speaker
it's It's not a new concept that we've had. We've had these systems for for years. ladies Jay, he just said three day work week. I'm not lying to you. I got expectations now.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah. Let's, let's make it happen. It's on. Challenge expected. All right. Well, we'll circle back in about a year. i expect to see, you know, progress towards that goal. so But one thing I wanted to add, Jay, I started on that. I i just wanted to say, too, and I think I said this in an article that you know I was quoted a couple of years back, you know, is really just about that effectiveness and those efficiencies. And, um you know, a true testament, I feel like, to any organization who who believes in lean, right, and in running their organization to the best operational practices.
00:29:50
Speaker
I feel like that report card or that scorecard. is one's ability to do concepts such as a four-day work week. I really truly believe that. And it's not to toot our own horn, but if you're looking for a barometer, of thermometer of how do you gauge if someone's doing something well with the limited resources that they are given, in our case, but mostly coming from state and federal monies, I really truly feel like the report card is one's ability to do this and also being able to keep the same quality and the same outcomes.
00:30:19
Speaker
yeah what ah what what what a great point, I think, to end on, which is that four-day workweek is, is ah in some ways, sort of an indicator you know of overall organizational health. And you know I think by by that but that metric, I'm so proud and and happy to have been able to be a partner with you all and and look forward to kind of working with you to see see where you go from there. So, Kerry Cadwell, Jason Cadwell, thank you so much. i Have a great day.
00:30:45
Speaker
like Thanks, Jake.