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Recovery, Reframed
16 Plays22 days ago
Recovery, Reframed with Brandon George & Phil Stucky Recovery advocates Brandon George and Phil Stucky join Jay for a candid, compassionate conversation about the beliefs that shape recovery culture. From “rock bottom” to abstinence-only, they explore what still holds true, what needs rethinking, and how their own journeys have evolved.
Rather than "myth-busting" or a "gotcha," Brandon and Phil help us reflect with nuance and compassion on the ideas that have shaped the world of recovery: honoring the truth in them, but also making space for complexity, growth, and new perspectives.
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Transcript
Introduction to Guests
00:00:01
Jay Chaudhary
gentlemen Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:04
Brandon
Hey, hey
00:00:05
Jay Chaudhary
got brandon george and phil stuckey here with me and you know we'll we'll jump right in maybe brandon you want to introduce yourself and
00:00:12
Phil
Thank you.
00:00:13
Jay Chaudhary
give a little bit of your background
00:00:15
Brandon
absolutely. Thanks, Jay. Brandon George here, active member, I would say of somebody living in the and long-term recovery or in the recovery process the last 16 years, you know,
00:00:27
Brandon
Been a winding turn of getting healthy. to see a lot of facets of our healthcare system and and treatment system along the way before I was able to to get things stabilized.
00:00:39
Brandon
And, you know, since then I've spent the majority of my professional life in this space, in the recovery space, in the treatment space, in the policy space. lots of different seats at the table, some work, uh, with folks inside of the justice system, uh, direct care done lobbying work for, for, for a half dozen years, uh, and currently help expand access to care, folks that, that needed the most rural area, specific demographics that are hard to reach homeless SMI, et cetera.
00:01:10
Brandon
Uh, some of those spaces where, uh, Fortunately, unfortunately, I've got some some experience trying to navigate the recovery process. So glad to be here. Glad to chat.
00:01:21
Brandon
a good old conversation.
00:01:23
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah. Awesome. Phil, my friend, it's good to see you.
00:01:28
Phil
Jay, Brandon, is always a pleasure to be able to get to sit down with you all and reconnect.
00:01:33
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah. You want to give us a little background on who you are and in your story?
00:01:38
Phil
Yeah, absolutely. You know, my name is Phil Stuckey. It has been a long, almost 11 years now in the recovery myself, all the way from kind of touching on some of the things Brandon's experienced as well, some some homelessness myself, 16 convicted felonies. Woo-hoo!
00:01:55
Brandon
I
00:01:55
Phil
Mom's proud on that one.
00:01:56
Phil
about About a year and a half being transient and unhoused, living in Louisville on the streets of Louisville, Kentucky. But today, in the past 11 years, it looks a lot different. Today, I'm actually ah able in my professional life to be able to to build some of so systems inside of systems to make some changes.
00:02:14
Phil
know, i was always taught that, you know, you can't you can't make changes inside of systems unless you're a part of one. so today with with you all and being able to create the things we're doing today, I've been able to do some some work inside of some of the prisons ah systems that we have in the state of Indiana, work all over the state, really excited for what we got coming up this year and can't wait to unpack a little of these conversations with you guys today.
Nuances of Recovery Beliefs
00:02:38
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I got, I'm getting a little ah go no nostalgic because I feel like, you know, I've had, I've had journeys with both of you in this space, you know, in different, different forms and, you know, some of the best work in my life and, and, you know, grateful to, for both of you to, to to be here. And I can think of no two better people to sort of unpack and and have this conversation. And so,
00:03:02
Jay Chaudhary
you you know, you know me, I got to have an angle, right? And so when I when i texted both of you, you know, this sort of vague notion, you know, I wanted more than just like your typical, like, tell us your recovery journey and, you know, give us the three-point plan about MAT and housing and and, you know, every one of these conversations seems to kind of go the same direction. And so I thought instead we'd explore something a little bit a little bit more, you you know, to me, more interesting. I mean, all the other stuff is really important and and, you know, you should listen to the, you know, 10,000 podcasts or read the, you know, million articles about all of them if you want to learn more.
00:03:36
Brandon
Uh-huh.
00:03:38
Jay Chaudhary
But, you know, the the thing I wanted to explore was, was that, you know there's a lot of, there's a lot of like strongly held beliefs in the recovery world.
00:03:46
Jay Chaudhary
Right.
00:03:46
Phil
Mm-hmm.
00:03:46
Jay Chaudhary
Like, and, and you know, and part of this is look like this world grew in a very sort of insular space, right.
00:03:47
Brandon
la
00:03:53
Jay Chaudhary
Like, you know, because of stigma and, and because of the history you know, these these, these communities grew up kind of on their own, right? Like, you know, in, in church basements and in other places and people found each other and found recovery and, and, you know, turn their lives around. And, and, and as part of that, there's a lot of things that, you know, kind of developed and ideas that developed. And, and so now that recovery is sort of a bit more in the mainstream, I think we have a lot of work to do still on the stigma side of it, but I think, you know,
00:04:25
Jay Chaudhary
Thanks in large part to, you know, to folks like you all, recovery is, you know, loud and proud in a way that I don't think it's ever been, is a wonderful development.
00:04:36
Jay Chaudhary
part of that, think a lot of folks like you are taking a more nuanced approach to these sort of deeply held beliefs. And so, you know, before we dive in,
00:04:47
Jay Chaudhary
you know, want to make it clear, like, this is not about like myth
Treatment vs. Recovery
00:04:49
Jay Chaudhary
busting, right? This is not about like, gotcha, like, you know, you idiots, I can't believe you thought that like, there's a, lot there's a really good reason why a lot of these ideas took hold. And, you know, and there's a lot of good intentions and elements of truth behind everything, everything we're going to talk about today.
00:05:07
Brandon
ye
00:05:07
Jay Chaudhary
But you know, what we're doing is more, more taking a look about a sort of a more deep, deeper, nuanced look. And so, Before we jump into some of these concepts, do you all have anything to add about like you know your experience in recovery and and these concepts?
00:05:20
Phil
what Well, Jeff Brandon, if you don't mind, always, I love to cut you off
00:05:22
Brandon
yeah
00:05:23
Phil
So I'll just jump in real quick cause hearing you, you know, even bring up these conversations, Jay, all these places we're talking about, how it kind of formed and in these belief systems and kind of sayings that we're going to talk about have kind of all had impressions on each other.
00:05:39
Phil
And they've all kind of came in at different levels to kind of, when this started to kind of birth new and how it grows, whether that be what's happening in society and how society is growing and what that looks like.
00:05:52
Phil
And a lot of impressions that have been made on, especially when we're talking about some of these recovery conversations with 12 steps and depending on what your pathway is there. But when we talk about this, you've seen a lot of impressions made from treatment facilities and language that's been brought in from treatment that has been brought into recovery.
00:06:11
Phil
And especially, you know, I'm a big proponent that treatment is treatment and recovery's recovery is recovery. Can they work together? Absolutely. Can one introduce you to the other? It sure can. But sometimes there's this mixed and blurred, muddied waters of where treatment then becomes recovery lingo.
00:06:28
Phil
And while you said it perfectly is we're we're not out here to try to say that doesn't have a place here. It's what's the meaning behind that. And it's not always word for word, the plausible description of the context of what's being said.
00:06:43
Phil
There's, it's a little bit more to it and it can be changed depending on what environment you're in.
00:06:43
Jay Chaudhary
right
00:06:48
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah, great point. And maybe maybe, Phil, if you want to give us a two-sentence differentiation between you know your treatment and recovery, would be great.
00:06:56
Phil
Yeah, thank you. And so treatment is the rehabilitation piece of when people go into a detox or a 30-day facility or a longer-term IOT and what that looks like. That helps introduce you to the recovery process.
00:07:10
Phil
I'm going to say you know recovery itself is the action and things that the individual is working on on a self-directed path, not what a system has involved inside of this box that, well, this works for the American Medical Association to help with the treatment of this disease.
00:07:26
Phil
the The work and the recovery process is the individual with the application of the knowledge on what they're doing on a personal level.
00:07:34
Brandon
Yeah, I'll tap into that just to it's like the. you know, our our treatment models, our treatment could, could work alongside the recovery process a a lot better if our ah payment models changed. Right. And so treatment essentially ends up being like the acute care intervention for addiction, right. Like, like broken arm, right. Four weeks, six weeks, whatever that is, couple months.
00:07:56
Brandon
Whereas like to Phil's point, recovery process is going to be, you know, a journey for the rest somebody's life that's behavioral and and it has a a lot of change, no longer, no no different than the way somebody a diabetic may change their, their lifestyle, their workout routine, their diet, you and the recovery process.
00:08:06
Phil
Thank you.
00:08:16
Brandon
from substances is going to be the same, right? It's not just taking the insulin shot. It's not just taking the MAT. Like it's a, it's ah it's a, you know lifelong or extended chronic type of issue not to transpose treatment and medical stuff on, on recovery as Phil just mentioned, but it's good descriptor there on, on kind of the differences in between short-term and long-term. And I love this conversation. I think that You know, we we are guilty of the recovery community.
00:08:44
Brandon
We've all got things we believe about deeply. Jay, you mentioned it. Like ah when people have found a way or a method of of recovery that saved their lives, it's their truth.
00:08:52
Phil
Thank you.
00:08:53
Brandon
It's their passion, right? You know, hey, getting arrested saved my life. Whereas you might have somebody else say, getting arrested almost killed me, right? Or it kept me in my addiction or or whatever the the different difference is. But that is that person's truth.
00:09:07
Brandon
And what we've done is you know, in order to promote one way or one line of thinking, we discredit others, right? Like, I don't believe in medication because it didn't work for Tommy, right?
00:09:17
Brandon
Or, you know, i don't believe in this or, or, Hey, my daughter got sober because she got arrested and got stopped and got into treatment. And that way it means everybody should get arrested, right? Like we're going to talk about some of this, but,
00:09:27
Phil
Mm-hmm.
00:09:29
Brandon
How do we get into the nuanced conversation? Oh, you can never, ever take drugs again. Well, like what happens if you have a compound fracture in your leg, right? You tell me you're going to tell the doctor that, you know, no medication while I'm in the ED. Like there's just, we get into some extremes with and we don't have to tear each other down
Rethinking "Rock Bottom" Myth
00:09:47
Brandon
in order to promote, you know, something we believe in.
00:09:50
Jay Chaudhary
Yes, yes, yes, and, right, and not no but. that's That's what we're going for here.
00:09:53
Brandon
Yes.
00:09:54
Jay Chaudhary
So, all right, well, that great, great framing, and, you know, let's let's jump right in. We're going to go through five concepts, roughly, and, you know, we'll see if we stay on track. I think given all of our track record, I think the the chances are are pretty low, but we'll we'll see what we do here.
00:10:04
Brandon
but look
00:10:08
Jay Chaudhary
So this first one is something that, you know, you hear a lot in recovery spaces, and you hear from people in long-term recovery, you hear it from you know people outside the system. And that is this notion that a person with addiction, i'm'm I'm actually going to go and use a stigmatizing language here, bru and I'm going to say I'm doing that, i which is that an addict must hit rock bottom. right It's this idea. Brandon, maybe explain what that what that that means, and then you know like let's let's talk about that
00:10:43
Brandon
Yeah. And so it's something you you hear a lot. And i think it's underneath the general premise that, you know, consequences are what ultimately facilitate change and behavior, right? that That some type of consequence has to happen in order for people to do so. And again, things are born sometimes out of something that's generally true, right? Like if everything's perfect, you're never going to look at it, right? So of course, something has to happen to make you evaluate.
00:11:09
Brandon
But this idea that, I have to kick my kid out and he has to be underneath the bridge with nobody else shooting up by himself. And so he gets to a spot of such a desperation that then, and only then will he be able to recover.
00:11:26
Brandon
know, we talk a lot about this, this to me very much lines up with tough love. And, and, and well, we just have to let them a rock bottom. The problem is like,
00:11:38
Brandon
especially over the last decade, like the real rock bottom is the morgue at this point. And so like, how far are we going to push this line? And, you know, for me and, and, and Phil, obviously i want you to add some color here. It's like, you know, there's always another bottom. Like somebody's like, when I say like, you keep digging, right? The shovel's over is always there. It's like,
00:11:58
Brandon
when When you can get the intersection between you know some pain or consequence and opportunity and willingness to to to get healthy, it's when I see change start to take hold, right? And so it's unique because you got two people on the call right now that did suffer severe consequences, right? We both were transient. We both were homeless and we both did lose family.
00:12:19
Brandon
There was a lot of consequence for me. And so I think people would look at me and say like, yeah, he did have to hit you know a rock bottom. Now, that being said, I was in treatment 12 times. I wasn't introduced to medication until the 10th time.
00:12:32
Brandon
Right. And so like maybe if I was introduced to other interventions earlier, right, i had severe opiate addiction.
00:12:36
Phil
Thank
00:12:37
Brandon
Like there was like, who knows? Hindsight's 20, 20. But, you know, this is too bad because even like 12 step literature and like AA programs talk about.
00:12:48
Brandon
you know, if we can get recovery in front of people sooner, they don't have to go down that far, right? Like we like, why can't we get it on a first, you know, DUI or the first time the wife gets mad or the first time there's a write up at the the job versus pulling my whole life down around me and able to do so. And so it certainly has been my experience working with a bunch of folks. See a lot of folks get healthy from a lot of different spaces.
00:13:12
Jay Chaudhary
Yep.
00:13:13
Phil
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this is one of those things where, you know, Brandon, appreciate your your point of view because but probably going to touch a lot of the same things.
00:13:20
Brandon
Yeah.
00:13:20
Phil
It's kind of cool that we have different pathways and how things happen. But like you said, our bottoms kind of look similar to what they were. You know, but Brandon hit it right on the head is the first thing when people ask you these kind of questions is first identify what we're talking about.
00:13:34
Phil
And so what is rock bottom? You asked me what rock bottom is. It's death. and uh that's the bottom line and there's no more going down than that piece and so the with that being said we try to look like in another part of recovery conversations and context we say is the similarities not the differences so that's why you won't hear a lot of people talk about what exactly their bottom was because you know i know people that you know go to different 12-step meetings that their bottom was alcohol only and work said you either got to stop drinking or you're going to lose your job. And so they decided to start going into recovery.
00:14:11
Phil
You know, it didn't have to be three VCS cases, three different overdoses, living under bridges or 16 felonies later. Brandon, I went to treatment 12 times as well. So maybe 12 is our lucky number.
00:14:23
Phil
But, you know, still got you beat on the 16 But at the The coolest part is when I say that is I've been treatment 12 different times. I can tell you where the seed was planted in my first treatment visit, where ah one of the BHT techs told me that you don't have to live this way and you it's possible for you to change your life.
00:14:44
Phil
That didn't stop me from picking up more consequences and to go back out and use again. But I kept remembering where I could come back to to feel safe. and And so that's why I love when we have this conversation, because when we talk about, and I'm going to put go a little bit farther on it, because when you say you got to hit rock bottom, we also hear people say they're not ready yet.
00:15:08
Phil
Right. And so when you say they're not ready yet, sometimes the cranial rectal inversion is still happening. And so I say that in a clinical way that you can kind of hear me say it's kind of when your head is still up your ass, Jay.
00:15:21
Phil
And but you can use that in a clinical model. So you won't get in trouble like I will everywhere else. And so. It gives them enough time for that to pop out and the fogginess to go away, whether that's incarceration, whether that's inside of a detox facility or where that's at.
00:15:37
Phil
to it It's always not about if the will or the wants there because they only know survival mode. And survival mode is exactly what they're doing.
00:15:48
Phil
And so telling someone, if it was just as easy to say, stop what you're doing, but right? Stop using the alcohol, stop using the heroin, stop using the drugs. And we can go through this pathway.
00:15:59
Phil
We wouldn't be talking about the disease of addiction, right? And so that's why kind of pulled those two in together for you, Jay, especially when we talked about rock bottom versus not ready yet, because not ready yet is not about this society belief system where someone has to be for them to get help versus where can we put STEM interjection models and interventions with working with individuals?
00:16:27
Phil
And then will that take? It may not. That's our approach that needs to change, not the person that's still in active addiction.
00:16:33
Jay Chaudhary
yeah Yeah, so good. And you know I think like i I always talk about the stages of change, right? like that this This notion of like as as a person and all people, regardless of what what your issues are, you when you're trying to make a change, you go through these stages. And a person's progression through those stages is hard to predict or or influence. Yeah.
00:16:56
Jay Chaudhary
But what we can do and we what what we have been doing, I think, in Indiana and and and other places is as we've been hopefully making it so when they do make that decision, when they do go through that stage from sort of contemplation to to action, you know, we're here to catch
Criminal Justice and Recovery
00:17:13
Jay Chaudhary
them.
00:17:13
Jay Chaudhary
and and and And that's, I think, the really, really important piece of of all this, right?
00:17:18
Phil
And that's a perfect, perfect piece of that, Jay, is because the majority of the time we're interacting with these individuals, they're still some of them are still in pre-contemplation because their consequences aren't about just the use.
00:17:32
Phil
It's the behaviors around the use that their consequences are. And they want to change those behaviors forever. And they still are in pre-contemplation about, hey, guys, it may be the drugs, right?
00:17:44
Phil
And so it's about the motivational interviewing and working with the stages of change and change talk to get them from pre-contemplation to contemplation, from contemplation to preparation. And kind of that's our job as the professionals is to be able to identify where they're at. You know, I remember one time I met Dr. Gupta, right? And he was talking about in a speech, he was talking about We need to meet people where they're at and then bring them with us.
00:18:10
Phil
And it was a room about 15 people. And I raised my hand and said, I would like to offer a ah ah disagreeing point. And I said, my job and my understanding is we meet them where they're at and we sit down beside them.
00:18:24
Phil
And when they decide to get up, we'll get up with them. It's not about moving them to where we believe they should be. It's where they believe they should be. And that I see Brandon just itching.
00:18:34
Jay Chaudhary
and That's White House drug star, Dr.
00:18:34
Phil
So I can't wait to hear this. Yeah.
00:18:35
Jay Chaudhary
Gupta, just for the record, for people that are listening.
00:18:37
Phil
yeah Hey, did you like that name drop?
00:18:38
Jay Chaudhary
Brandon? Yeah? Brandon, you're on mute.
00:18:47
Brandon
I got the call afterwards from Phil. i I may have messed up. I don't know. I just ah ah disagreed with the drugs cz are of the White House. Like, am I going to be OK? I'm like, no, like we have to have interventions for the stages to change, like getting somebody that's contemplative and then like putting next to them this big action plan. And then when they don't follow through with the action plan, we say, oh, you're not ready.
00:19:07
Brandon
Like we didn't set that person up.
00:19:07
Phil
Yep.
00:19:10
Brandon
in a spot to be successful and maybe Phil, to your point, maybe they want to work on those other behaviors. Well, how about we have interventions so they can work on those other behaviors. Right. And so that we can do interventions to keep them moving forward versus this, this blaming of patients or clients or people, right? Like we, it's like, if, if they are not successful, we blame them versus looking at the interventions where we're applying and like, shame on us. We don't do that in other healthcare issues.
00:19:34
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm going to flip a little bit from the outline I sent y'all. it We're already deviating just because I think we're going through a journey here. Right now we're talking about the the person's mind.
00:19:45
Jay Chaudhary
and i want to touch on something you touched on already, Brandon, which is this idea of incarceration and coercion, right?
00:19:45
Phil
like
00:19:51
Jay Chaudhary
Because i think...
00:19:52
Phil
Thank you.
00:19:55
Jay Chaudhary
in this world, and we're seeing this a lot now with some of the debates around homelessness in California and like, you know, do do we have to, eat know, forcing people into treatment. And, and I think it's just this like really, really interesting and and complicated conversation that gets turned into two really simple stories as opposed to like a nuanced conversation. It's like on one hand, it's, you know, you, you hear from so many people who say if it was not for being incarcerated,
00:20:23
Jay Chaudhary
I would not have gotten clean. That's ah that's a regular recurring story. And on the other hand, you have folks, all three of us are on the on on this this side, which is like, you know, we cannot incarcerate or arrest our way out of this.
00:20:33
Phil
Thank you.
00:20:36
Jay Chaudhary
And, you know, we're we're criminalizing the disease. And so like, you know, I don't have an answer here. I just would love for both of you to comment on like the nuance there.
00:20:44
Brandon
You're going to get us all and we're to get us all crucified by every advocacy group across the the country from every angle here, Jay.
00:20:47
Jay Chaudhary
Let's do it.
00:20:50
Jay Chaudhary
That's the goal.
00:20:52
Brandon
The answer is like both.
00:20:53
Jay Chaudhary
canceled everywhere.
00:20:54
Brandon
The answer is both. Like you can't dismiss somebody's experience. They say like like this saved my life. So I almost got convinced of this the other way. And so like my experience was – I certainly didn't get sober because I went to jail or or in recovery because I went to jail. But what I did is like I had 16, but I had a bunch of felonies piling up and I was going to go to prison.
00:21:15
Brandon
And my attorney looked at me and he said, look, the only chance you have to not even get rid of this to make it go down. stay in treatment, the actual clinical part, as long as you can, as long as you can.
00:21:25
Brandon
He pushed it out a year. I went into treatment. I stayed in a residential place for a year. Like it turned into a halfway house about six months in. And so that external motivation helped me initially, right? and Now we all know long-term wise, like,
00:21:39
Brandon
that has to become internal at some point, right? Like like that that that piece has to get get intrinsic. But that external motivation is what kept me there for the first 30, 60, 90 days.
00:21:48
Phil
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:21:50
Brandon
Now then also like, wow, like my life's getting better. I don't want to be a slave to drugs anymore. I want to see my kid again. Like that started to take hold. And so so, but that was the propeller for me. Like it just it just was, I had somebody almost convinced me like,
00:22:06
Brandon
that I got you know sober despite the criminal justice system. Like, no, that almost killed, like, it just like it ah like hijacked my own like journey, like my ah my my my my my own story of how I got here. And look, this is hard. I don't want people to go to jail.
00:22:22
Brandon
I don't. Like, i don't want people locked up in cages. It's inhumane what what happens in a lot of facilities. I also know for myself, it's I had to get the brakes on. Like, they the brakes had to get on.
00:22:32
Brandon
And so Phil mentioned earlier, like,
00:22:33
Phil
Thank you.
00:22:34
Brandon
you know, detox, a jail for a period time. Like I had to have a physical intervention that stopped it. Now, lot of work to do, judges, courts, sheriffs, Jay, you've done it ah ah just so much work on this. So grateful, like to educate those folks.
00:22:50
Brandon
So we're not just sitting them and languishing. Like they actually are getting help while while they're they're wrapped up in this system. But There's consequences with it on the other side, right? Like inability to get housing, school, loans, ah like just so jobs.
00:23:04
Brandon
like Like it is a lifetime sentence oftentimes on the consequences of the criminal justice system. So I don't say this lightly. Like I think it's important to to hit the other side of it. But yeah we're going to have bat this ball around for a few minutes.
00:23:15
Jay Chaudhary
yeah
00:23:15
Brandon
Phil Jenkins.
00:23:16
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah. Well, Phil, before you go ahead and again cancel yourself, let me add ah ah that, you know, i right there with you, Brandon, on like the collateral consequences. And i just sort of think like if we're going to win over hearts and minds, which is the work that we did, right, it was win over hearts and minds, like we have to acknowledge like the just like the kernel of of reasonableness at the heart of like the other side of it.
00:23:31
Brandon
yep
00:23:41
Jay Chaudhary
So, yeah, Phil, go ahead.
00:23:42
Brandon
Yes.
00:23:44
Phil
Yeah. So I love this conversation and here's why I love this conversation because look, uh, there's this thing called the Enneagram. Okay. And if you haven't heard of the Enneagram, it's a really cool kind of personality, kind of like, uh,
00:23:57
Phil
piece of like how to motivate individuals and what motivates them. And I've got a staff of 40 individuals that work for me. And there's groups of ones, twos, threes, all the way up to nines. Right.
00:24:09
Phil
And the cool part is they get motivated, motivated by different and interventions that I do with them. And what I mean by that is, look, we all three of us may be sitting outside and we see trash on the floor.
00:24:21
Phil
And I pick it up because I'm motivated because I want you two guys to think that I like to keep things clean and I'm a good guy, so I'll pick up litter. Brandon may pick it up because Brandon says, wow, that is out of place and I got OCD and I don't want to see that there.
00:24:34
Phil
Jay, you may pick it up because you actually care about the environment and it's whatever wants you to put that piece. It's the motivational piece that is so situational for the individual. And what I mean by that is that's exactly what happens with taking away their experience. I love how Brandon said it is. Everybody has to have their own experience on what motivates them and puts them in a position to make that decision.
00:24:56
Phil
Because the problem that we have sometimes, and the majority of the times, is when we're in that piece of addiction and and and it's actively happening, I am not able the majority of my life when I was in active addiction to make decisions that were best for me.
00:25:12
Brandon
Yep.
00:25:13
Phil
And until I had a break away from active addiction and active use, I was then able to say, wow, this is what I would like to do.
00:25:13
Brandon
yeah
00:25:22
Phil
Once again, let me tell you, I went to treatment 12 different times. So 11 of those times, I was away from the drug use and I still chose to go back out and use again.
00:25:34
Phil
Right. So that was the decisional base that I chose to do. And the consequences weren't enough for me. I don't think any of us on this call is saying that we are trying to get rid of consequences for actions.
00:25:45
Phil
Right. I think when we're having this conversation, we're talking about how do we interject with people to put them in a better place, in a better mindset to handle the consequences for their actions, whether if that is they got to go back and and and and do a bit or if they got to go sit in rehab for a little bit longer or wherever that looks like.
00:25:46
Brandon
Mm-hmm.
00:26:07
Phil
I think the judicial system does what it is supposed to do, what it was built for. And I think when we have these conversations, Brandon, and we talk about things like it puts them in another place for housing.
00:26:20
Phil
And, it you know, if you have this kind of charge or this kind of charge, But that's why the work that you all have started, and I don't want to say you did, because the stuff that you started is still happening today on the back end of the hard work that you all did.
00:26:31
Brandon
Yeah.
00:26:34
Phil
And what that is happening is diversion programs. So if I do... get arrested or if I do have a case, I can get into a drug court and I can do what I need to do in that drug court. And then my my charge can be deferred down either to go away or it becomes a misdemeanor and it comes off a lot easier and they're not looked at the same.
00:26:55
Phil
And so I think that we have things that are in place for this kind of conversation.
00:26:55
Jay Chaudhary
us
00:26:59
Phil
Not every county has them the way we want them. But it's got to start somewhere and you got to get the evidence and the historical data to prove what this looks like. And we have that and we're getting that. And we have some amazing counties doing a lot of great work doing just that.
00:27:15
Phil
We have some counties doing pre-arrest diversion.
00:27:19
Brandon
yeah
00:27:19
Phil
Right. And so they're getting called out there. but You know, when the officer deems that it's going to be a safe place and a safe environment and he doesn't want to lock that person up. And there's officers that feel that way.
00:27:30
Phil
And do I believe in incarceration that can help introduce you recovery? I do. And the reason I do is because I've seen it work and I've seen people that come in to get court cards signed.
00:27:41
Phil
And then guess what? I see them for months come in every week in a meeting and get a court card signed. And then and and then we stop signing the card. And they're still coming because something was planted for that individual.
00:27:53
Phil
Sometimes we don't know the best decisions, right? Especially in that in that piece when it's active. And sometimes we people get in place and they help us get put places to where then we can make the proper decision the longer we're away from the active use.
00:28:08
Phil
So yes.
00:28:08
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah.
00:28:08
Brandon
Hey, shout out the stigma of the criminal justice system too, right?
00:28:10
Jay Chaudhary
That's so good.
00:28:14
Brandon
Like that might be only a place that's more stigmatized than the addiction space.
00:28:17
Phil
Yep.
00:28:17
Brandon
And so like, even within hours, like, like Phil said, somebody like, Oh my God, I can't believe they're here just to get your court cards. I'm like, well, guess what mom? Like you're only here cause your wife is yelling at you and has you sleeping on the couch.
00:28:29
Brandon
Right. Or you're only here cause your job is is suspended. You like this idea that like one person's like external motivator is like,
00:28:33
Jay Chaudhary
Yes.
00:28:37
Brandon
you know, not good while the other person's doesn't matter. Like,
00:28:41
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah. And that's, that's really the theme, right?
00:28:41
Phil
yeah
00:28:42
Jay Chaudhary
We're talking about it. It's like, like literally like, like these, these pathways that we try to force people into, as opposed to letting them forge their own path is, is, is, ah ah but you know, a real problem.
00:28:54
Jay Chaudhary
And, you know, before we move on from this also, I do think in some ways we're lucky with the state we're at. And I know we all have our issues with the political landscape of our state. Like i'm not going to, you know, figure coat some of that but i think on one hand we were able to maybe avoid some of like the the hyper purity that advocates in some other states brand you know you know i've talked about this like so like where it's like yeah we can actually partner with the law enforcement and the criminal justice system and and build programs yeah and like and we can do it because we're you know we're we're
00:29:11
Brandon
Yep.
00:29:21
Brandon
Prosecutors Association judges. Yeah.
00:29:25
Jay Chaudhary
we're not shamed as advocates for doing that. And so, you know, really, really interesting. So let's you move on to the next one
Addiction Identity Debate
00:29:32
Jay Chaudhary
here. And this this is, you know, maybe just a couple, a few words on this one, but it's this notion of like, you know, once an addict, always an addict. And like, and like the the the word, the the phrase I always heard is like, you know, my addiction is in the other room doing pushups, getting stronger, right? Like, like this idea that like, there's, you know, that that you are inescapably,
00:29:54
Jay Chaudhary
bound to your addiction for the rest of your natural life. Right. So any commentary on that?
00:30:00
Brandon
Bill, get it.
00:30:02
Phil
Yeah. So two great points and let me hit the first one first. Right. So once an addict and always an addict look, once again, that is situational to what your recovery pathway is and what you're, what you need and how you need it.
00:30:14
Phil
Right. And so for myself, I'm someone that is a part of a 12 step program. I have a belief system that what I need to do today to be able to get a daily reprieve from my active addiction and my brain being actively,
00:30:28
Phil
actively spinning with addiction with or without drugs that I have to put in work on a daily basis. Do I know if that's a forever thing? don't. I know that I had to do it today. And I know that tomorrow I'm probably going to do it tomorrow because guess what? It's almost given me 11 years in in an abstinence-based recovery.
00:30:46
Phil
So for me, yes, I can see how we can have this conversation of once an addict addict, always an addict addict, but that is so situational. And I think sometimes what we do is we put everybody in the same piece of everybody needs to have that belief system because you constantly need to be able to do something to work on yourself.
00:31:06
Phil
Even without 12 steps, I believe that to be true because we we always constantly want to do that what we call the edge of our seat in practice, right?
00:31:13
Jay Chaudhary
Well, that's all.
00:31:14
Phil
empty
00:31:14
Jay Chaudhary
but That's every person. I'm not in recovery. And like I am always I mean, every single person is is always needing to do that. I think that that's that's somewhat of a different thing than than this notion of like this, this thing always being with you. Right.
00:31:29
Phil
But that's where I think it comes from. Right. And I think sometimes that having that piece in there where we can just say, because, look, you know, Jay, you know, here's where your edit button is going to come in handy but because I do shitty things or because I act like an asshole.
00:31:43
Phil
Am I always going to blame that and on my disease of addiction? No, sometimes I'm just an asshole. You know what mean?
00:31:48
Brandon
Yeah.
00:31:49
Phil
And so, but in the in the world of where we take phrases and we take it too far, and I think that it it it means more than just the words on the screen, is this one, it's once an addict, always an addict.
00:32:01
Phil
And you always have to do something. Look, when you talk about my disease in the other room doing pushups, I laugh at that concept because my disease is present currently with me every day.
00:32:12
Phil
And what I mean by that is, like When I'm in a meeting or I'm reading something, my disease is reading it too. And it's going to find a way to manipulate how those words are said or how those people see me if I don't stay on top of those sort of things. And what I mean by that is I walk into a room of 100 people, Jay, you know me, I want to make everybody like me and everybody laugh.
00:32:32
Phil
But let let me find the one person that's not nodding with what I'm talking about. And that's where I'm going to concentrate. Because then i'm going to say there's that one person that don't like me.
00:32:38
Brandon
Yeah.
00:32:41
Phil
Right. And so that's where my head goes when we have this conversation. I think too many times in society, we think that individuals have to be a part of this fellowship of recovery.
00:32:55
Phil
And so when we put them in that fellowship, that's an addict, always an addict, right? Because that's the belief system that's inside of some of these fellowships. And that's completely fine. And that's allowed to happen.
00:33:06
Phil
And look, I say stuff about myself and in my fellowship that you'll never hear me say in the public's eyes. You'll never he might hear me tell you all that I'm a junkie. You'll never hear me say all the things that I say because that gives me power when I'm saying it in there, but I will not allow that to be said here.
00:33:23
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah.
00:33:24
Phil
You know what mean? And so having that that that concept for me is just, I think, I see it and I understand it. I just think that we push that on the society so much that that's not everybody's framework for recovery and we shouldn't be pushing that message.
00:33:40
Jay Chaudhary
Absolutely. And Brandon, yeah if you could talk about the sort of other side of this point, and it's interesting because you know both of you are people who are in long term abstinent recovery right like like like you you abstain from all mind-altering substances as part of your recovery but i think both of you also have have come to to view that with a little bit more nuance and so you know what's what what can you describe kind of your evolution on the notion of fully abstinent recovery brandon and you want weigh in
00:34:07
Brandon
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I just, this again, this all or nothing piece, right? Like once an addict, always is an addict. Like I remember I had a young kid that like, I just, battered him with this as a 12 step guy. Like, you're like, no, you have to say this, right? You're not accepting your, your, your situation. If you don't, you know, say you're an addict,
00:34:29
Brandon
the reality was like, he was full of shame. And like, every time he said that it just reinforced the shame every single time. And I was too young in recovery to be able to, to pick up on that.
00:34:35
Phil
Thank you.
00:34:40
Brandon
And so, this is, this has happened in a ton of spaces, like again, arrows from everywhere, recovery, community, harm reduction, like alike, like, I have to choose the path that's best for me. The last couple of times that I drank an alcoholic beverage, I ended up with a needle in my arm.
00:34:56
Brandon
I can't drink. I just can't do it. My judgment goes out the window. ah ah drink. It doesn't happen. Guess what? Like I also know people who at 16 years old started doing painkillers. They got physically dependent on opiates for three or four years.
00:35:13
Brandon
five years, even went to heroin use. It was a dependency issue. They got into recovery. They're in recovery for five years. They said, Hey, I've never had a drink like even close to, I didn't drink when I was 16. Like it was a pill thing.
00:35:24
Brandon
They drink. They're not part of their, they, they, they go to church. They're active members in their community. They, they, they, they, they moderately drink. like people just don't like, like, it's like the world gets on fire. If you mentioned that, like I, people say, well, I've heard about that, but they're not around to see it. Like,
00:35:40
Brandon
No, because they're not in your circle of whatever, 12 step or smart or whatever it is like they're in church. They're participating in the world. Got another friend of mine, sober 10 years. so He could not get out of this job he was in entry level. He wanted to go back to school. He had a bachelor's degree, need to get a master's.
00:35:57
Brandon
had been told he can't take medicine for his ADHD. Part recovery. You cannot take medicine for your ADHD. I am convinced of this more than I ever have been. right after, like we had a nuanced conversation with his doctor. He tried other methods. They said, Hey, I really think that you need to be on medication. We understand the risks with your recovery, et cetera, but we think this is the path for you productive.
00:36:18
Brandon
He gets on medication. This a stimulant, right? the That everybody said he can't take. I just went to his exhibit for his thesis statement at the thing. Like he just graduated with his master's degree. His life hasn't changed. He's not out fucking pulling up syringe water out of puddles. Like it's just tough.
00:36:36
Brandon
Like, like it's nuanced and you know, the idea from one side of it, the, Oh, well just cause you're addicted to one thing, like you can still smoke weed. You should deal it be able to do everything.
00:36:45
Phil
Yeah.
00:36:46
Brandon
Like it was just opiates for you, Brandon, or the opposite side that like you can't do ever like the, it just, you know, you smoke pot one time. So you're, you're addicted to everything. Like yes,
00:36:58
Brandon
Yes, most things are polysubstance. You guys don't scream at me. I get it. But that's not the case for everybody. like like It's just not. And if you're around for a while, like you're you're you're fooling yourself if you don't see some of it.
00:37:11
Brandon
I could go on on this one for a whole hour.
00:37:11
Phil
yeah
00:37:12
Jay Chaudhary
Sure.
00:37:13
Phil
do
00:37:13
Jay Chaudhary
bill
00:37:13
Phil
g Do you think, Brandon, that there's a piece of it, especially in the recovery community, that hears that stuff, and there's actually a piece that's a little pissed off that they can't do it, right?
00:37:25
Brandon
1,000%. That's the reason why.
00:37:26
Phil
Right.
00:37:27
Brandon
It's like, I want to be able to do stimulants too. I have anxiety. I should be able to take Xanax now. It's like, no, you're eating 15 Xanax.
00:37:33
Phil
yeah
00:37:35
Brandon
You can't do that.
00:37:35
Phil
which yeah Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:36
Brandon
right like
00:37:37
Jay Chaudhary
so
00:37:37
Brandon
Yes is the answer.
00:37:40
Jay Chaudhary
That's such ah such a good insight there. So, you know, kind of trying to land this so surprisingly smooth flight so far here. And, you know, I want to – a little disappointingly smooth. I'm just kidding. Actually, this has been this has been fantastic. So the last thing I want to end on, this is something we have all talked about, I think, a lot with each other, you know, individually as a group and in other settings.
00:38:03
Jay Chaudhary
But I think it's something that cannot be overemphasized enough, which – and this is where –
00:38:04
Phil
Right.
00:38:07
Jay Chaudhary
the importance of recovery as a concept comes in, you know, like I coined a bit of a phrase. I didn't really take off the way I thought I thought it would at first at the state, right. When was like, you know, recovery is easier when life is, you know, well, some folks stole it.
00:38:20
Brandon
I thought it was great, Jay. I thought it was gonna be the next day.
00:38:23
Jay Chaudhary
And then like, you know i didn't want to have territoriality over it. In hindsight, probably should like patent and written a book or something. And then, you know, I'd have my own TikTok channel and then life would gone a lot differently at this point. yeah, you know, here I am now. But I think that the point is, and and you've touched on aspects of this, right? That like, when it comes down to it, like, you know, we focus entirely too much on substances and being clean and, and, and, and separation from things. And we don't focus nearly enough on like the things that give us joy and the things that give us purpose and things that give us meaning. And so,
00:39:03
Jay Chaudhary
you know, would love for you all to kind of comment on, on just on that notion.
00:39:09
Brandon
Yeah, I'll tap in like, and this is also the notion, like,
00:39:09
Jay Chaudhary
Brandon.
00:39:14
Phil
Thank you.
00:39:15
Brandon
kind of, I guess, but like the idea that somebody successful if they can pass a drug test in recovery, right?
Defining Recovery Success
00:39:21
Brandon
That that's it. That is the gold standard. If you can show that you can have quote unquote clean urine, right? That, you know, no substances, then you're successful.
00:39:30
Brandon
Like I'll reference back what was talking about with, with my friend, right. In the degree piece, right? Like, like, are, do you see your kids, right? Do you have a job? Are you participating in society? Like, like,
00:39:44
Brandon
quality of life measurements, right? Like we talk about recovery capital scales and things like that. Your, your, your internal, external resources.
00:39:51
Phil
Thank
00:39:53
Brandon
I wish the conversation, I wish we could get there with the conversation because yes, for vast majority of folks that are going to be in this space, separation from substances is a part. It's a, it's a critical part of the foundation to, to get the other places that we're going. But,
00:40:10
Brandon
You know, you know, I work in the treatment space right now. Right. And so like people ask, like, what's successful, like healthy interpersonal relationships with with family and friends, finding purpose in life, whether that's job or volunteering or school or whatever that is connection with community. Like those are the things that indicate me if somebody is, you know.
00:40:31
Brandon
happy, healthy recovery wise, doing well, so to speak, right. Successful. I don't like that word necessarily when we're talking about this, but, I wish the focus would be more on that versus, you know, the thing that we're trying to, you know, get rid of, or, or like the the symptom, like, right.
00:40:43
Phil
It's
00:40:48
Brandon
Like we're focused so much on this one symptom and not the broader picture of, of, of what we're really dealing with.
00:40:55
Jay Chaudhary
Yes, Phil.
00:40:57
Phil
So I have a few beliefs here and hopefully they, they, they come across in a way that doesn't sound very aggressive. You know, I can't, when, when, when Brandon says, that's the biggest question I get asked is what's your success rate, right?
00:41:10
Brandon
yes
00:41:10
Phil
So my organization and what we do, they say, what's your success rate? Like I go in front of commissioners and i ask for money and they go, well, tell us what your success rate is. And the first thing I say
00:41:18
Jay Chaudhary
I used to ask you that. sorry, I had to.
00:41:20
Phil
yeah here Well, you're you're part of the problem, Jay.
00:41:20
Brandon
i percent
00:41:22
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah.
00:41:23
Phil
So what I would say is, how do you define success?
00:41:23
Brandon
and like
00:41:27
Phil
So are we talking about society's definition of success or are we talking about the individual's definition of success? And so for so long, we're pushing society's definition of success. And what I mean by that is, look, look, this is why.
00:41:40
Phil
and And we're having a boom of it again across the state of Indiana. We're putting in so many treatment facilities and I love it and it's great and all that stuff. But they're pushing one thing and one thing only. And that's the abstinence of drugs, right? They are working on some behavioral health stuff.
00:41:53
Phil
And don't get me started on behavioral health because we're gonna put a pin in that for a second. So, but they are working on those pieces and what that looks like. But are we having these individuals work with individuals on What it looks like for that individual self-directed pathway. You to know why we're not? And I'll tell you why, because you can't bill insurance to talk about harm reduction.
00:42:11
Phil
You can't bill it.
00:42:11
Brandon
Payment models. Payment models.
00:42:13
Phil
yeah
00:42:13
Brandon
out Let's change their payment models. Sorry.
00:42:16
Phil
Right. You can't bill. You can't bill Medicaid to say this person is going to continue to use drugs, but their life looks better this way. Right. And we're keeping them safe and we're keeping them healthy. Right. You know, when, when Brandon talked about he said the symptoms, right.
00:42:30
Phil
I'm going to call it a little bit something different. I'm going to call it the behavior. Right. And instead of talking about the behavior, I mean, why are we not talking about what's really happening? And that's the exact nature, right?
00:42:41
Phil
Because the behavior is nothing but a manifestation of the exact nature that's going on with the individual. And how do we help that individual work on that? Right. right Because my behaviors are what people have problems with. right But my behaviors can change depending on what is acceptable and what's not, but it can still be the same exact nature for the individual.
00:43:01
Jay Chaudhary
Thank you.
00:43:03
Phil
And what I mean by that, when we're talking about success and we're talking about seeing what that looks like for the individual, is it's so situational. and And it's really about, are you happy?
00:43:15
Phil
like right Because when we talk about drug use and we talk about people that are active use and we say, when you take something away, you've got to fill it with something else. right That doesn't matter if it's a negative or positive in anyone's life. When you start doing something and you stop it, you've got to fill it with something different, whether if that's community, whether if that's church, whether if that's you the gym, whether if that's food, whatever it is, like you have to be able to do something with that that that that spot.
00:43:39
Phil
And so are you happy? Is this success for you? Or do you feel you're in a spot to where this is maintained and good for your life? And so I think if we really talk about holistic, Jay, like really stop talking about like treatment models, boxes, and we stop talking about holistic with individuals, we would have a different context and framework to con conversation about.
00:43:49
Jay Chaudhary
but
00:43:52
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah.
00:44:01
Jay Chaudhary
it And I think, I think it kind of falls up.
00:44:02
Brandon
j
00:44:04
Jay Chaudhary
I think one area it falls apart is the notion of like the directionality of it. Right. It's like, I think there's this, there's this idea that, you know, you stop the drugs and then you get all the other things or, or, or you and and like, I don't know, in my own mental health journey, I've realized like, if I'm in a really sort of bad place,
00:44:21
Jay Chaudhary
and I start doing the things, even if I don't want to, that will get me in a better place, I'd magically end up in a better place, right? I start journaling, I double down exercise, I make sure I'm in a routine.
00:44:32
Jay Chaudhary
Like I don't, and it I think that we don't recognize that the direction, the directionality is sort of bi-directional for sort of the people, places and things and recovery, right?
00:44:44
Phil
Because we get tied up in that. We get tied up in, I'll speak a little recovery lingo, the obsession, compulsion, and total self-centeredness of the disease concept, right? Because that's all I think about. And what you say is for your mental health, it's the same concept we talk about for substance use, mental health, is if you can change the obsession of thought that is happening, even if that means you go outside and go for a walk,
00:45:05
Brandon
Yes.
00:45:06
Phil
If we can change the secondary thought process, we can change the outcome in the belief system that's happening. Because what happens is, Jay, you're feeling blue. You're feeling down. You don't get out of bed. So you do the opposite. You get up, you have coffee, you take the dog for a walk, you go for a hike.
00:45:20
Phil
And you're not obsessively thinking the pattern concept of what's going on in your brain. Absolutely.
00:45:25
Jay Chaudhary
be be Behavior affects mindset as much as mindset affects behavior. And that's one thing I think that we don't nearly talk about as much.
00:45:30
Brandon
yeah
00:45:31
Phil
Absolutely.
00:45:34
Jay Chaudhary
So, Brandon, kind of last word with you, and then we'll we'll add end this thing.
00:45:38
Brandon
Yeah. Look, I just, it's that individual piece. see Like we've talked, I think this has kind of the been a golden thread throughout this conversation. And I I was going to flip it, you know, Jay, like, you know, you healthcare care law, et cetera.
00:45:46
Phil
um
00:45:51
Brandon
Like, look, we're America the end of the People want to use a substance. Like is if they're not like at what point is somebody allowed to make their own decision? Right. Like, Hey, I do want to be Cali sober. Right. Like maybe that I do have my kids back and I can hold a job and just do blank. Like,
00:46:07
Brandon
like at what point it does does everybody else in the world need to be okay with that? Like, and I know that like community safety has to do with that, right? And personal freedoms and all that kind of balances together. But, you know, I hope that we get to focusing on what people want and and what their definition of success is, right? We talk a bunch about it in different spaces, but yeah, let let let's focus on that a little bit more.
00:46:34
Jay Chaudhary
ah ah Phil, last last word.
00:46:35
Brandon
Yeah.
00:46:36
Phil
Oh, my last word. Listen, look, there's some amazing stuff out there. Brandon, I can't agree more with what you said. Jay, you did a horrible job. And what I mean by that is you picked two people that kind of have the same belief system and that are very passionate about it. And it would have cooler if you had somebody that completely disagreed with us. We would tore them apart, but it would have been cool to have ah ah somebody who disagreed with us.
00:46:57
Phil
You know, Dr. Carl Hart in Columbia University, you guys have heard of him. You've seen his books that he's written.
00:47:01
Brandon
Yeah.
00:47:02
Phil
You've seen the kind of work that he's done. I believe that there's something to it. I believe that we have created this mindset and this thing about what drug use is, the use of drugs, and kind of completely demonized it and what it looks like. and what individuals I have friends today, friends today in recovery that have an amazing, beautiful life that are doing micro dosing for some PTSD.
00:47:22
Phil
You know what I'm saying? Am I saying that's right or what's wrong? I'm saying what's ever good for them, right? and And I know that what we're talking about, what's legal and what's law versus what we're talking about, what what what is okay for that person. I know a lot of people that come back, veterans that come back from war, that have PTSD, that do some microdosing to kind of help with those pieces.
00:47:40
Phil
And so I think so much of us gets wrapped up in in in the falsehoods and the demonizing of what these things are. and and And especially because of a lot of this stuff, was done by the own admission of our own government that we're trusted in the first place.
00:47:56
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah.
00:47:56
Phil
And so I'm going to shut up with that.
00:47:56
Brandon
Yeah.
00:47:58
Phil
And hopefully people still tune in.
00:47:59
Jay Chaudhary
Yeah, no, I mean, this this was this was amazing. And I would add, you know, I think that the reason it's that both of you are such effective messengers here is because both of you do have pretty traditional recovery journeys and pathways.
00:48:12
Brandon
yeah
00:48:12
Jay Chaudhary
You know, you have the the ah the the criminal justice system, you have the the rock bottom, you have ah the multiple chances and in in treatment, you have the abstinence-based recovery, you know, all of this, right?
00:48:23
Jay Chaudhary
And and yet, in your journeys, you have, you have begun, i think, to, to question and, and just, you know, add a little bit more complexity and nuance to, to the things that you learned on your path.
00:48:33
Phil
Thank you.
00:48:35
Jay Chaudhary
And so that, that's why, you know, I'm so grateful. This was awesome. know, I, I, this could probably have been like a four hour Joe Rogan style podcast, but, You know, I'm not at that level. I don't think anybody's going to click on that if if they see it. So we're going to cut it off here in about 50 minutes. But thank you both so much. This was awesome. And, know, we will, I think, probably do this again at some point.
00:48:56
Brandon
Appreciate you guys.
00:48:58
Phil
Guys, it is let me just say this, and you can stop recording or not, Jay, that way you won't have this for for evidence. But I can't tell you enough of what the work that you all did to bring me a part of at the table has been the ah ah the the platform to let me grow with this belief system.
00:49:14
Phil
Because until some of the stuff that me and Brandon got to do together, that some of my belief systems didn't even get to
Reflections on Recovery Journey
00:49:19
Phil
change. Some of the work that we got to do to together, Jay, with being the macro level of pieces, ah gave me opportunities to go educate myself more.
00:49:28
Phil
And so you all, with the work that you've done, have been able to help me to get to the belief system that I have today. And that's what i'm I'm so appreciative to be here with you guys. And I'm actually pissed. You didn't do this in person, Jay.
00:49:39
Phil
you The one chance you had to pull us all together.
00:49:40
Jay Chaudhary
next time next time yeah absolutely
00:49:43
Phil
You know, it'd be, it'd be great to see you all again.
00:49:46
Brandon
Yeah. I love you.