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Extra Free Bonus Episode - Napoli Historic Serie A Champions Deep Dive: From Maradona To Spalletti's Osimhen & Kvaradona
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A deep dive into Napoli's historic third ever Serie A title where Nima Tavallaey and Carlo Garganese praise the heroes, analyze how this win came about, compare with the Diego Maradona era as well as discuss what the future holds for the Partenopei and much, much more.
This is an extra free special episode of The Italian Football Podcast. Every Monday review episode of The Italian Football Podcast is always free for all.
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Transcript
Napoli Wins the Scudetto: A Historic Moment
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast. Hello everybody and welcome to a special celebration episode of the Italian football podcast. I'm Carlo Garganese joined as always by Nima Tavale and what we're going to do today is we're just going to celebrate Napoli winning the Scudetto. Napoli are Serie A champions for the third time in their history, the first time since 1990. It's a historic day
00:00:32
Speaker
for all fans of Napoli and all Neapolitans. The party has started and it will go on not for days, not for weeks, but for months, maybe years. It's never going to stop because it's a really, really special day and it's been a really, really special season.
Building Success: De Laurentiis and Juntoli's Roles
00:00:51
Speaker
So we're just going to do a short episode, just celebrating this success, remembering this success.
00:00:59
Speaker
And Nima, so first of all, in celebration of his success and this achievement, I want us just to go through the key reasons why they've won the Scudetto in terms of personnel and in terms of what they've done Napoli. And first of all, we have to start with De Laurentiis, Aurelio De Laurentiis, the president, and Juntoli, because Juntoli, the sporting director, I mean, because what they've managed to put together this season, it started with them, hasn't it?
00:01:30
Speaker
It absolutely has. For me, it's really funny because last summer, in July, when things were not looking too good because in Sinha and all these players were leaving, Napoli fans were absolutely livid and we had Vincenzo Credendino on this show.
00:01:52
Speaker
And it was on the 14th of July where we had a pull on Napoli deep dive. It's episode 238. So, or everyone listening to this who is a patron, please, you know, you can go back and listen to that. I mean, the backstory, we went through the backstory of Coolie Bali to Chelsea, how the Laurenti's had turned down a hundred million for Coolie Bali and Coolie Bali turning down Juventus, the Kim Min Jay story, the, you know, everything that was going on. And it was complete chaos back then.
00:02:18
Speaker
um and and he was not happy and napoli fans weren't happy and but then something after that the mercato really started for napoli and they started signing these players um uh one after one and they ended up with aspadore simioni towards the end there as well and that and relayed the groundwork there because let's again remember de la rentes was so attacked by the media by the media by the fans for dismantling the project for
00:02:47
Speaker
for not investing, for not caring enough. And instead, he has been proven right decisively. You know, he said something the other day that annoyed Juventus Milan and Inter, which I found really, really funny. He said, this is a school, this is a school, this is a title of honesty and integrity. And he went on his soapbox and started talking about all of that, which I mean, if we discard, of course, he's being deliberately
00:03:14
Speaker
Inflammatory there. I understand what he means because Napoli don't work on debt. Don't operate on debt They have always since he took over been run on profit they have been profitable systematically pretty much by barring the
Napoli's Financial Strategy: A Debt-Free Victory
00:03:30
Speaker
Covid years, and ever since returning to the Serie A, they've systematically always finished in a position to go to Europe. They've played European football every single year. They've played European football since returning to the Serie A the following year after that, of course. So that is something he's been building up to over these years. And of course, when one of the positive, quote unquote, aspects of Covid was that
00:03:55
Speaker
the football, the moneyball, the artificial breathing of Juve and Inter and all these other clubs, and Milan, of course, started that earlier with Elliott coming in and creating sustainability. That has allowed for Napoli to win this because you couldn't no longer run too much and borrowed money.
Synergy of Strategy and Management at Napoli
00:04:17
Speaker
And so I understand what he means when he says that, but of course he is, he is de la rentes, he's going to exaggerate, he's going to pretend that he's some sort of messiah and that he's like the picture of honesty and all that stuff. And it's funny, but he does have a point. He hasn't run up ridiculous debt. He has always been profitable, he's always been sustainable, and he's always delivered sporting projects.
00:04:43
Speaker
With Juntoli, of course, this being the Chile Gina Solatorta, winning Napoli's third scurretto, it's been absolutely fantastic. Yes, and you look at the work they did last summer, they got rid of five first-team players, four of them, pillars, the top scorer in the history of Napoli.
00:05:03
Speaker
Mertens, Insinia, the captain and the Cully Bali, the best defender, and Fabio Ruiz, the centre midfield, and then Ospina, the first-choice goalkeeper. I mean, you're looking at five first-choice players there. And, you know, they brought in, I mean, it's just incredible what they've done, you know, buying Colette Scaley for 10 million, buying Kim Min-J for 18 million.
00:05:32
Speaker
I think there's a serious case to be made that he's probably been the best defender in all of Europe. The best player in the league along with Ossiman is absolutely amazing, the work that they've done. It just shows that when you put together
00:05:50
Speaker
when you have a clear project, which is something which, you know, you've enters that don't have into haven't really had for two years. You know, it shows what is possible, you know, you don't read that, you know, especially in these times where there isn't the economic power that the big three had over the rest of the league, previous years, that, you know, this is what is possible now. But we have to say Spelletti as well,
00:06:15
Speaker
Well, that's part of it, isn't it? It's having the synergy between all parts of the club. Like having the coach identifying the right coach for the squad and understanding what that coach needs to kind of football he wants to play, bringing in players that are in line with that philosophy, but also maintaining the financial sustainability of it, not overspending, cutting your wage bill, ending the transfer window on a profit whilst doing all of this.
00:06:43
Speaker
I called it last summer saying that I called it as the best transfer window any Italian club has had since Inter's magical summer of 2009 when they sold Ibrahimovic and financed getting Lucio Snyder and all these other players, which ended up in a treble. I stand by that. I think this has been a fantastic mercato and it just showed
00:07:04
Speaker
what, why Italian sporting directors are so important, so good. It's also up to the manager in being able to develop these players and get them playing the system. And that's what Spoletti has done. The way that he develops and improves players, we've seen it over his career, but what he's done, you know, the way that he's got these players and he's made them play at their full capacity or even better than their level.
Comparing Napoli's Past and Present Scudetto Wins
00:07:24
Speaker
You know, Lebokka turning them into one of the best sentiment fielders around the current skater, how he's developed. And Guisard. And Guisard, you know, somebody that was at Fulham in this championship.
00:07:34
Speaker
you know, Kim Minjae, Rachmani, I mean, Mario Rui from just an ordinary left back into someone that was becoming a system machine, you know, you could go on and on, you could go on and on about what he's done. But the great football that they play, the modern football that they play, the number of goals that they've scored, and also it's great for Spoletti because I think it's beautiful to see someone that's been a bridesmaid so many times to finally
00:07:59
Speaker
win that much deserved Scudetto at the age of 64, I think he is now. That's fantastic. His career definitely deserves it. So I'm really, really happy for Spelletti. But then you've got the players. You've got the players as well. And I was thinking about this. If you were to pick your best 11 Serie A this season, how many of them would be Napoli players? Probably about seven, wouldn't they? I mean, that's how
00:08:25
Speaker
how incredible and how dominant they've all been, how good they've all been individually. I mean, you can't look past the front two, as Ossoven and Klaude Atzkalia have just literally been unplayable for most of the season, and you can see that in their numbers. The top scorer in the league, the top assist man in the league, just amazing. Incredible, Kim Minjae, the best defender in the league, Lebokka, the best midfielder in the league. But you know, so many incredible performers, Di Lorenzo, Rui, Ramani, Anguisa, Zielinski, Elmas,
00:08:55
Speaker
Pottetano, you know, Meretz actually done pretty good in goal when he was a bit of a concern. Simeone is a super is like, has there been a better sub than Simeone? I mean, it's incredible. I mean, his goal per minute ratio in the city is mad. Yeah. So it's and also Raspadori, I mean, getting that goal against Juve, I mean, that is that is that will be the symbol of this Guerta, the goal at the death at the Juventus Stadium that he scores. He will that will that is forever now iconic imagery in Naples and Napoli.
00:09:25
Speaker
There's been a lot of iconic moments in this season. I mean, the thrashing of Liverpool, the thrashing of Juve at home. I mean, doing the double over Juventus with that respiratory goal, I mean, it's magical. Absolutely magical season. How does it compare though? Because everybody will always compare to the 1987 Scudetto. Look.
00:09:53
Speaker
Again, the seria in terms of how much better it was than any other league is the distance between the other leagues and the seria.
00:10:06
Speaker
was a level and distance that I don't think we'll ever see again because football is too globalised. We'll still see big dominance by the Premier League. I think we will, actually. I think we will, because it'll be the Super League. I think it will. But in a fair era, we've never seen it, and we never will. In an era where there's actual competitiveness and there's not a monopoly,
00:10:27
Speaker
from the Super League, the Premier League, I think we will see. I think it will be worse than that, unfortunately. But that's not... You reckon? I don't think so. I think you will. Without doubt, we will. You know why I don't think so? I think football is too globalised. I think football is way too globalised. There's so many quality players out there that I don't think you will ever reach those levels. I think you'll see dominance, but not those levels.
00:10:48
Speaker
I disagree, unfortunately. But anyway, getting away from the point, you know, I think that 1987 will always be more significant as it was the first, you know, you always remember your first with anything, with anything, pick anything in life, you remember your first.
00:11:02
Speaker
But before Maradona's arrival in 1984, Napoli had never won the league. A team from the southern mainland had never won the Scudetto. And Napoli had avoided relegation two years in a row before Maradona. And then for them suddenly to then go from that to winning the Scudetto a few years later, it was incredible. And the significance of it culturally, I mean, we know about the hatred,
00:11:31
Speaker
the differences between the North and the South, the hatred that Napoli and the Neapolitans have for the North and vice versa, the abuse that they get from fans, the economic divide, the prejudice, all this kind of stuff. This was a victory for the South. It had never been done before. It probably never thought it would be done before because it was like fighting against the establishment of Juventus, Milan and Inter and they did it.
00:12:01
Speaker
And, you know, so I think that that will always have more significance. But I also think at the same time that, you know, what Napoli have done here, I mean, no team outside of Milan into all Juventus have won
00:12:16
Speaker
the Scudetto for 22 years because that is how modern football has gone now. Modern football in every league has basically just become monopolised by a few rich teams. We've seen that with Bayern winning 10 in a row in Germany, PSG winning it every year in Ligue 1.
00:12:36
Speaker
Barcelona and Madrid, and the odd one from, let's go, but Barcelona and Madrid basically monopolising La Liga. So we're seeing it that it's always the same rich teams, and that's how it's been in Italy as well. So to see that someone from outside the big three winning it again, I think is an amazing achievement. And because it's been so long, the significance is huge as well, 33 years, I mean.
00:13:02
Speaker
I mean, that's a third of a century ago. Exactly. And the fact that it happens this year, it happens when Diego, Diego passes away in the year 2AD, both Argentina and Napoli are able to turn the page.
00:13:22
Speaker
to and look towards the future without the past no longer dragging them and holding them back, which has been the sentiment both for Argentina and Napoli. The weight of Maradona, to be able to turn the page in this way, is poetic and it's
00:13:43
Speaker
quaint and poetic and part of this notion of, you know, life continues, life goes on. There's always a future. There's always a tomorrow to look forward to, even though you remember that. That's the beauty of football, isn't it? Yeah, that is the beauty of football. There's always a tomorrow. You can have a disastrous season, but you can always look forward to next season. But, I mean, yeah, I mean, I do lean to 87, to be honest, and 90. No, that's the greed. That's the greed. Because the league was so strong then. I mean, every team right down to the bottom, the league boasted world-class, Spaniard, foreigners.
00:14:12
Speaker
You know, you look at Plattini, Bonniak, Laotrap, the three Dutchmen at Milan, the three Germans at Inter, you know, Falcao, Sarezzo, Roma, Socrates, Pastarella, Fiorentina, Elky, Arbregal, Verona, Zico. I mean, it could go on and on and on. Every single team had superstars in their team, you know. And, you know, now it's not unfortunate, you know, we were the Italian football hosts. They're certainly telling me it isn't what it was.
00:14:39
Speaker
No, it's not. We've got to be honest. We're not going to bullshit people. This is why I say that they will never be anything like that again because even though the Premier League will dominate and it will get the best players.
00:14:51
Speaker
Again, football is too globalized. Milan, Inter, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, these are global brands, and they will always be attractive for players from South America, from Africa, from Asia, from every part of the world. It's still a seal of prestige to have played for one of these clubs. And that was kind of cemented in the 80s.
00:15:16
Speaker
in the 90s, when the Serie A literally had every single world-class player. I don't think the Premier League will have every single world-class player. That's what I meant when I said earlier that you'll never see the discrepancy of level between the others and one ever again. You'll have world-class players everywhere, because first of all, there are better overall footballers globalized,
00:15:39
Speaker
There are far more football players, football has become much more of an industry, and so better football players are available than they were back then when Preven Elke was smoking when Verona won the Ceris Corretto. Do you know what I mean? The level is just at a different level. You don't have the Brian Robson go down, get smashed, and then go and win the English first league top division. It's a different kind of level now.
00:16:03
Speaker
The difference between the best of the Serie A and everyone else was so huge back then. I don't think we'll ever have seen that. And also, the way, like you said, the first, the way that they did it, they were almost relegated. This has been something De Laurentiis has been building to for 10-15 years. That was try not to get relegated two years in a row.
00:16:24
Speaker
and then build slowly towards upwards and then miracle winning the winnings to square the winning a UEFA Cup with in my opinion the greatest footballer of all time with Diego Maradona. Yeah and that's it I mean if you compare the 87 and 90 teams to today and who I would get put in that team I mean it's really difficult to do but I mean I think from the 87 team obviously Maradona
00:16:50
Speaker
Probably Giro Ferrara, Fernando Denapoli, maybe Bani, maybe, in midfield, but I think Ferrara, Denapoli, Maradona, Giordano, from the 90s team are definitely without Alimao and Carreca. Absolutely.
Can Napoli Build a Dynasty?
00:17:07
Speaker
And then remember you had Gianfranco Zola and Canavaro as kind of kids as well.
00:17:12
Speaker
Well, Zola was still too young, but Zola was a sub-player in 90. But I mean, from the current team, I think Di Lorenzo, Kim, La Boca, Kavada, Osseman, I think they would all be there or thereabouts in both of those teams. So I think it's quite, in terms of teams comparing the two teams, I think it's actually quite close, but I think that obviously Maradona
00:17:36
Speaker
elevates the the 87 team so much that he's you know that that makes the peak of his powers I mean yeah that takes on that takes it on to another on to another level so it's ultimately you know who will be more loved I think that maragon is maragon I think that team will always be the most loved but I think this team also will will well it's historic and it will be remembered forever
00:18:01
Speaker
No one smashed the league like Napoli have this season. I know that's partly down to the other teams.
00:18:07
Speaker
being bad or dropping so many points, but also they've destroyed the league by a distance, winning it as early or having the chance to win it as early as anyone ever before. Well, they should have won it at the end of April when I predicted that they'd win it. If they hadn't. Final question. Can Napoli build a dynasty now? Where can this team go from it? Can they retain the Scudetto? Can they win it two or three years in a row? Can they go even further and win the Champions League?
00:18:36
Speaker
I think they are in the best position to do so compared to the Scoredetto winners of the last three years. Milan, we know, are not in a financial position to do so. The Suning project died after it pretty much won it, let's be honest. It's been frozen and it's been a slow decline since then. It's been kind of damage control. And Juventus has been a dumpster fire since Sarri left.
00:19:03
Speaker
So out of the three last or the four last Scudetto winners, they are in the best position to do so. However, there are question marks. The question mark, of course, is Victor Osseman. His contract expires in a year, if I'm not mistaken. What do they do there? Because if they don't cash in on him, they might lose him for free.
00:19:21
Speaker
What happens with Kim Min-jae and that clause? Do they extend it? Do they remove it? Do they elevate it? Because I think if they lose both of them, then that's going to be difficult. Because even if they were to replace them, and I do think that they are in a very good position to replace both of these players.
00:19:39
Speaker
It's difficult. You don't find someone like Victor Oseman who is ready to play, to give Napoli, that gives Napoli what they want. I just don't know who that would be. They will find a good replacement. They might have to adapt how they play.
00:19:55
Speaker
But to find someone of his level who's ready to do what Ossiman does is just impossible, I think. Same with Kim and Jae. I think they can find a good defender who becomes as good as Kim and Jae, but to immediately have the impact that Kim has had.
00:20:11
Speaker
He's the complete central defender. I think that's going to be very, very difficult. Yeah, I think it depends. Yeah, it absolutely depends on who they lose and depends on how they strengthen. I mean, last summer they did incredible work. But, you know, I've said it before on this show, losing your best players and replacing them year after year is unsustainable in the long term. You know, you can do it one year, you can do it two years, but eventually you will get it wrong one summer. Like,
00:20:37
Speaker
Like Milan, I got it wrong last summer, like the last year. But look at Dortmund, look at Atalanta, look at Monaco. Eventually it catches up with you. You can create all those three teams. They created amazing teams, Dortmund, Atalanta and Monaco.
Future Challenges: Retaining Key Players
00:20:51
Speaker
But their model was built around selling on, selling, buying young, developing, selling, and then re-putting the team back together again. Eventually it caught up with all of them.
00:21:02
Speaker
And you know, so that is, that is a tricky thing. Junzli's future as well. What happens to him? He's wanted by Juventus. If he leaves, then what happens? Because he... Who do they bring in? Who do they bring in? Because that's what it's about. It's about player, you know, identifying, scouting, bringing the right players in, but developing them. You know, that's all part of it. You bring in somebody else that's not able to do that, then of course you're going to fail. De Laurentiis isn't young. He's 74.
00:21:27
Speaker
Does he stay on? How long does he want to stay on? Is he thinking of selling soon? There's that. And also, as we said after the Selenium Turner game, teams do start to work you out tactically, your movements, and it's up to Spelletti to make the tweaks tactically to make the changes. If you've got good players, I think you can do that. So I wouldn't worry too much about that if they've got the players. But what I would say is that I personally don't see a dynasty.
00:21:56
Speaker
And the reason for that is, you know, this is the fourth Scudetto winner in four years. Now, I think we've asked this question the last three show, the last three title, the last three titles, we've asked the same question. I remember asking it after Inter won it under Conte and I remember asking it after Milan won it.
00:22:11
Speaker
last year, we asked, can these teams create this? And definitely after Inter, I think we both thought potentially they could. We looked at the team, how strong it was and how dominant it was. Milan, maybe not so much, but we saw the youth, we saw how young the team was and we thought, yeah, this team has got so much, it's got age on its side. They could easily win, you know, quite a few skedetti in the years to come, given how young they are.
00:22:35
Speaker
But both teams have failed, fallen short afterwards to retain and win again. So just because Napoli have been so dominant doesn't mean they're going to win again. We've seen that the Serie A is so competitive and there is no financial dominance by anyone that I think it's a very level playing field.
00:22:51
Speaker
I think it is in 100% and I think we're going to have, I mean, it's the fourth Scudetto winner in four years. I think we could even have a fifth next year. But I don't like to talk about next season unless, until we have a Mercato result on our hands, because that's when we really know, because so much will happen and can happen over the summer.
Cultural Significance of Napoli's Victory
00:23:10
Speaker
But for me, when I look at it, I think Oceman is key.
00:23:15
Speaker
I think if they can get Victor to just extend by a year. And I think there is a good chance that he does that because we know how happy he is in Naples. We know how loved he is by the city. And if you win a Scudetto with Napoli being the MVP, as Victor will be, you're forever going to be you're forever a hero in that city. It's as simple as that. And and I think also the fact that he missed that Champions League quarterfinal against Milan
00:23:45
Speaker
What I think, and we both said at the time that had Ossemane been playing, I think we both think Napoli would have gone through. I think that is something that he will want to, I think that might play a part in his decision to just maybe extend by a year and maybe, or if he wants to extend further more than that, put in a minimum release fee clause at a set amount that they negotiate. That will be key. I think Kim Min Jae,
00:24:11
Speaker
If they can keep both, that'd be fantastic. Then they are in perfect position to go on and win the Serie A next season, no doubt about it.
00:24:21
Speaker
I think losing, if I could choose to keep one out of the two, I'd choose Victor over Kim, because I think you can replace Kim and Jay. I think Spaletti is smart enough and good enough to adapt and find another central defender that he can get to grow and cover for that. I don't think they can replace Victor Osman. I really think he's the only one. No, no. You don't replace 30 goals a season easily.
00:24:46
Speaker
You don't. Simple and simple. You scored 30 goals a season. It's not easy to replace. Just to reiterate the importance and to put this into historic context of how big of an achievement this is.
00:25:05
Speaker
Aside from Napoli, Lazio, Roma, Sampdoria, these are the only teams that have won the Serie A. You know, Hellas Verona and Sampdoria and Roma and Lazio, Napoli winning the third title is just incredible. And the symbolism of this is
00:25:24
Speaker
is incredible as well. It's so, so beautiful. And I think I was talking about one of the reasons, one of the main reasons, which I think makes the seria so unique in terms of
00:25:41
Speaker
what football means in Italy and what I was first drawn to it is, yes, football is means a lot everywhere to every country, but it expresses that importance in different ways. The way that it expresses itself in Italy really speaks to my heart. When I saw what Roberto Saviano, the author and journalist, tweeted out the other day, he said something that was incredibly pertinent and beautiful to what
00:26:10
Speaker
what football means to the people of Naples, when he tweeted out that supporting Napoli for me is the gateway to a dimension of perennial infancy. It's the place where I am forever 11 years old. I have an irrational relationship with Napoli. It's often the last artery that pumps blood from the city, that pumps blood
00:26:33
Speaker
from the city of my heart into my body. In these hours, it's like returning and wearing that jersey that I made at home, because at the time, official jerseys did not exist. There was no merchandising, and therefore, you had to make the shirts yourself. You had to buy the logos, you had to find the blue shirt, and you had to, with lots of effort, iron the sponsor and the club's badge onto the shirt.
00:27:03
Speaker
And then this feeling, this surreal metaphysical romantic feeling of fighting on the pitch together to lose and win together. This is what supportership is, because for one moment you don't feel alone. The magic soon disappears. The magic soon fades, but for that moment that it lasts, it resembles happiness. Yeah.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's beautiful. Beautiful way to sum up for what has been a beautiful season and a beautiful historic Scudetto victory for Napoli. So congratulations to Napoli. I hope you enjoyed our little celebration of the Scudetto victory. We will be back on
00:27:48
Speaker
Monday. Monday, yeah. We'll be back on Monday for a full weekend review of the weekend, and we'll see. We'll know, because it's going to be a super Saturday. It's going to be a super weekend in the city. Yeah, for sure. Okay then, until next time, cha-cha.