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112 | Navigating Theological Differences in Dating
488 Plays2 years ago
It's not easy out here in these dating streets! How do you ask good theological questions of a potential date? When do you give grace for differences and when you do draw the line? We talk about all this and more in this episode plus answer some listener questions on Christian Dating. Resources:
How Relationships Have Changed with Dating Apps
44 Questions to Ask Before Getting Engaged
URLS:
How Relationships Have Changed with Dating Apps: https://scrippsnews.com/stories/how-relationships-have-changed-since-surge-of-dating-apps/#:~:text=Dating%20apps%20have%20expanded%20the,attitudes%20toward%20dating%20have%20shifted.
44 Questions to Ask Before Getting Engaged: https://phyliciamasonheimer.com/44-questions-we-asked-before-getting-engaged/
Short History of Dating: https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/ztrptrd#:~:text=Dating%20%2D%20the%20term%20can%20fill,or%20a%20mixture%20of%20both.&text=The%20first%20use%20of%20the,getting%20turned%20by%20other%20men.
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Transcript
Introduction and Purpose
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Verity Podcast. I'm your host, Felicia Mason-Heimer, and I am here to teach you how to know what you believe, to live it boldly, and to communicate it graciously to the world around you. I believe that women are ready to go deeper in their faith than ever before, and they don't have to go to seminary to do it. I am so glad you're here, and I hope you'll join me on this journey because every woman is a theologian.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello friends and welcome back to Verity Podcast. Thank you for your grace as we had to take a break last week because my voice was definitely not in the position to record an episode and it's still a little bit rough so I want to apologize for that at the beginning of this episode.
Navigating Theological Differences in Dating
00:00:45
Speaker
And I want to introduce our topic for this week, which is discussing theological differences in dating. It's been a little while since we had an episode specifically for our single listeners, and hopefully this one will be helpful to you even though I am an old married woman, to quote the movie Emma,
00:01:04
Speaker
And I am going to be looking back as well as pulling from some recent research that I pulled up regarding the current state of dating, the history of dating, and how it has changed in the last decade since I have not been dating for 10 years or 11 years whenever I met Josh.
00:01:24
Speaker
So in this episode, I just want to introduce a few questions that you can ask to navigate some of the theological differences that may come up when you are dating. The reason this is on my mind is this is a question that I get sent via email
00:01:40
Speaker
pretty regularly. And also as a friend to single women, I have seen some of the issues that are arising in these, you know, dating relationships and the interactions on dating apps when it comes to theology and trying to figure out where someone is at in their faith, whether before you go on a date or during a date or during the development of the relationship.
00:02:09
Speaker
It sounds like it should be pretty straightforward, but so often it actually isn't because sometimes the terms that we use are laden with the meaning that someone else doesn't understand. Or maybe they use a term in a different way or they come from a different tradition. And so you're just trying to navigate a lot when it comes to dating theologically. And so hopefully some of what we talk about in this episode is helpful and thought provoking for you.
00:02:35
Speaker
I don't promise to offer any solutions for the state of dating in 2023, nor any sage advice, because once again, I've been married for 10 years. But I do hope that this will give you a few things to maybe bring to the table in terms of asking questions and thinking through theology in dating.
History and Evolution of Dating
00:02:54
Speaker
So before we get there, I wanted to first go over a really short history of dating and how it's changed over the years because I thought, you know, whenever we talk about the Bible and dating, people will often say, well, the Bible doesn't talk about dating, right? Because dating didn't exist. So I thought, when did dating actually start? And according to BBC,
00:03:15
Speaker
The first use of the word dating is attributed to an American columnist named George Aide in the Chicago Record in 1896, in which one of the men inside this little column is referring to his girlfriend and says that she's seeing another boy and he's filling up all my dates. So he's taking up all my dates on the calendar. And so that's where people think the term dating came from. But obviously,
00:03:44
Speaker
Before 1896, people didn't really have the freedom to date in the way that we know it today. And even in 1896, they didn't have that freedom. Because up until about 1870, this BBC article says, women couldn't keep property or money or goods they inherited upon marriage.
00:04:04
Speaker
So it was very, very important that a woman consider who she was marrying, not necessarily for love, but that he needed to be a responsible person, someone who could handle the inheritance with wisdom and steward it so that it wasn't completely taken away from his bride or spent. And we read about this all the time in like Jane Austen books or Louise at May Alcott books where you have this
00:04:29
Speaker
spend thrift boy that somebody falls in love with and he ends up being a total loser a dandy if you will and these women are basically put in a terrible position by marrying this irresponsible man so you had to think through who you were marrying
00:04:47
Speaker
And because, at least in the UK, historically, divorces could only be granted by the king. So you honestly couldn't do anything. You couldn't get out of an abusive marriage or a terrible marriage with a neglectful husband if you were in this position. So people were marrying.
00:05:06
Speaker
for practical reasons women particularly were marrying for practical reasons until queen victoria married prince albert and this was a love match there was so much about queen victoria and the victorian era that impacted how we view love and relationships it's fascinating including the fact that she wore a white wedding dress and that's why everyone wore white wedding dresses ever since then
00:05:31
Speaker
That was something that Victoria started, you know, so there's a lot there that we can't get into here. But basically what happened when Victoria married Albert is that it introduced this idea of marrying for love that became very popular. This is also around the time that Valentine's Day became commercialized. If you listen to my St. Valentine episode, I talk about that.
00:05:53
Speaker
So the romantic became central. And of course, over the course of 100 years, a lot continues to change. You've got the two world wars. And one thing, this BBC article, I'll put this in the show notes once we get it up on the blog, is that the chaperone system, which was really innate to the culture up until World War One,
00:06:15
Speaker
What happened to it after World War I is that women were starting to work to aid the war effort, and this gave them more freedom. They also were able to bicycle and get around by themselves, so they could do it on their own. They didn't have a shop around cycling with them. They could travel by train on their own. They could basically meet people anywhere. And so this just expanded with World War II and, of course, with the sexual revolution after World War II.
00:06:44
Speaker
we are where we are today.
Impact of Dating Apps on Culture
00:06:47
Speaker
And so I wanted to look at that big span of history of dating, but then he also wanted to ask the question, what changed in dating when dating apps were introduced? Because when I was thinking about the differences today versus when I was dating, so I would have been dating from around 2008 to 2013, 14. I got married in 2014. So 2008 to 2013 ish.
00:07:13
Speaker
And the first dating app, I looked this up on Scripps News. Let's see here. The first dating app was introduced for heterosexual couples in 2014. Bumble came out in 2014 and Tinder came out in 2012.
00:07:33
Speaker
So this is right when I was about at the end of my dating career and I really believe this is when things started to change when the culture of dating just wildly changed if you look at the 10 years between when I was dating when people still like asked you out.
00:07:53
Speaker
on the street or ask you out at a restaurant and I know this happens still but I've heard from my single friends and from my anecdotal research online that this is not as common as it used to be.
00:08:07
Speaker
And I think the big part of this has to do with the advent of dating apps. So Tinder launches in 2012, which is seen in the Scripps news article says it's a pivotal moment for online dating, because at this point, eHarmony already existed, Match.com, the Christian Mingle, which I did, by the way, I used Christian Mingle for a while before I met Josh.
00:08:29
Speaker
And then eventually we get Bumble. So what happens here is there's this change from a website, a dating website, where you had to fill out this really involved profile like eHarmony. It's a very involved profile. Christian Mingle was a pretty involved profile back then.
00:08:49
Speaker
to now a dating app where the profile is a lot less involved and the way you're even engaging with the app, the way it interacts with your brain is totally different than sitting down to a desktop and interactions are shaping the dating culture. So I think that for those who are listening who maybe are frustrated with the state of dating today,
00:09:13
Speaker
I kind of want to say I don't think it's your fault. Now, I'm no expert on dating. I'm no expert on dating apps, but based on my overall observations, my overall research as I was reading some different articles, and I'll put these again. I'll put these in the show notes, which are always on my blog, FeliciaMasonHamer.com, and you can take a look at them yourself.
00:09:37
Speaker
But basically, there seems to be a major shift in dating culture. And if you feel that, I don't think you're crazy. I don't think you're the one that is, you know, has the super high standards necessarily. I think it's definitely a difficult culture. It's different than it was 10 years ago, which is wild to me that it could change that much. But when everybody is going to an app,
00:10:03
Speaker
and using it almost with this consumer cynical mindset, it's really easy to fall into that trap, especially if you are not a believer, which so many people who are using these apps are not, which brings me to
00:10:18
Speaker
what we're here for, to talk about dating when you are a believer. How do you navigate that? How do you go through a couple dates or interactions online? And how do you decide if you want to go on a date with somebody if you're still trying to figure out where they're at theologically?
00:10:37
Speaker
Do you need to go on a date with them, etc. I'm not going to be prescriptive with this. I'm just going to give some thoughts on this, especially given today's culture. Now, if you want a resource that would be excellent on this.
00:10:52
Speaker
I recommend the book Outdated. I have really loved reading through the reviews of this book by JP Picluda. He's a pastor and he wrote Outdated and he's worked with singles and 20-somethings for many years and this book has amazing reviews and I think it may be helpful to you to get his perspective on how to date in today's culture.
Discussing Faith in Relationships
00:11:17
Speaker
But let's focus on the theology aspect here.
00:11:20
Speaker
Let's say that you are chatting with a guy, I'm assuming you're a woman listening to this, but you're chatting with a guy online and as you are beginning your conversation,
00:11:33
Speaker
You assume that he's a believer because maybe he has it in his profile or he has a Bible verse in his profile or he says he's a Christian. And of course, you begin the conversation and you start to wonder, is this person actually a Christian or is he just a Christian in name only?
00:11:54
Speaker
This is a very valid question. How do you get to finding out what somebody believes? Well, I, of course, am a fan of just being direct, just being direct and just asking, what do you believe about this? What do you believe about this? And if the guy is like, you're coming on too strong or whoa, you're being way too deep, too fast. I'm like, you know what? We probably just aren't a good fit anyway.
00:12:16
Speaker
So how do you transition a conversation or how do you deepen a conversation? How do you talk about these theological things when you maybe can't be as direct as you want to or you're trying to develop the relationship or maybe you really have hit it off and you just want to know more about where someone is at? And how do you navigate the theological differences? Because sometimes you might agree on a lot of things, but maybe you have some significant differences. And when is a difference too big and when is it too small?
00:12:45
Speaker
So what's really helpful is that we actually are going to go back to an older episode to answer that question. We're going to go back to the episode Determining Core Doctrine. How do you know what issues are essential and what issues are non-essential?
00:13:01
Speaker
The reason we need to do this is because when it comes to dating and it comes to being unified in marriage, which the goal of dating, you know, on the first date isn't marriage, but we shouldn't be dating people who aren't marriage material. We shouldn't.
00:13:21
Speaker
We are all developing, we're all growing, and no one is perfect. No one's, you know, the person they'll be at 50 when they're 22 and on a date. But at the same time, we shouldn't waste our time with people, dating people who don't take relationships seriously.
00:13:40
Speaker
What I'm saying is different than what purity culture taught in the sense that I'm not promising that you should marry the first person you date or, you know, don't go on a date with them if you couldn't see yourself marrying them. No, you have to go out with them to find out if they're marriage material, right? You have to actually spend time with someone to know that for the most part.
00:14:01
Speaker
But if after dating someone a little bit, you realize they don't have the commitment, the values, the responsibility, the faith that is necessary to make someone a good spouse, someone worth covenanting to, don't waste your time. Don't try to fix them, save them, make them different.
00:14:19
Speaker
They will change and God will change them on God's time. But you are not the Messiah. You are not the Savior, the shaper, the fixer-upper. So it's a tension of going into dating knowing that someone is imperfect while also being able to see whether they actually value the things that God values.
00:14:44
Speaker
And that's where theology comes into play because someone can truly have those values and not have a ton of theological knowledge yet. Like my husband, he didn't go to school for Bible. He didn't get a Bible degree. He wasn't a huge reader, but he had those values in place. And that's what kept us together through our hardest marriage years was that we did share the same mission and values even when there was not much else that was holding us together.
00:15:15
Speaker
So having those values, that mission in place, that's important. But what else is important? Well, a desire to grow on their own so that you're not the one motivating that growth. You're not the one pushing them forward. They have their own engine, the Holy Spirit.
00:15:34
Speaker
And then of course, even if you have that, even if you have the shared mission and values, there might be some theological differences denominationally or maybe in practice, spiritual life, spiritual disciplines, all of that just might look different person to person.
Product Promotion
00:15:53
Speaker
Hey friends, I am so excited to let you know about the new Summer Every Woman A Theologian Collection. We have some amazing products to share with you. We have the new spiral-bound Revelation Bible study, which is a totally new format that has been much requested.
00:16:11
Speaker
We also have my first children's book, My Family Loves to Eat Together, and lots of new hospitality items in Verity Home for doing more of life together, an all new candle, a restock of our favorite lavender brownie mix, measuring spoons, olive wood rolling pins, and so much more. If you are new to the Every Woman A Theologian Shop, this is the primary way that our ministry and this podcast is supported. So thank you so much for shopping with us.
00:16:39
Speaker
You can join the email list at FeliciaMasonHeimer.com slash newsletter to stay up to date on all of our launches. That's FeliciaMasonHeimer.com slash newsletter.
Key Relationship Questions
00:16:50
Speaker
So to start us off, I'm just going to articulate a few questions that I think are really important to ask regarding theology as a whole when you are talking to someone or dating someone. I definitely think these conversations should be had way before engagement, so very early on in a relationship.
00:17:11
Speaker
First of all, they're just healthy conversation topics in general. They just take stuff deeper and they lead you to deeper conversations, which offers opportunity for more connection in the first place. But secondly, allows you to get a peek at where they're at in their faith journey and whether they value the things that A, the Bible values and B, that you value.
00:17:33
Speaker
And so these are taken from an article on my website called 44 questions we asked before getting engaged. These are questions that Josh and I asked not in a formal way, but we definitely addressed every single one of them before we got engaged. And I am so glad that we did because even though we had a lot of difficulty in our marriage, especially in the middle years, years like three to six,
00:17:59
Speaker
These questions and making sure we were on the same page and our mission is what kept us on mission in those heart-rending years. So in this section on church and theology, here are a few questions I recommend asking.
00:18:16
Speaker
In what denomination or faith did you grow up? So what church tradition did they grow up in? I actually ask this at my retreats. Anytime I have a lot of Christians together, I actually like to ask this question because knowing what their church tradition was growing up or
00:18:35
Speaker
The lack of church tradition, if they did not grow up in the church, really affects how they interact with Christianity as a whole in the Bible, their understanding of certain terms, and it will help you in having better conversations. So what denomination or faith did they grow up in? If they grew up in the church, what did they agree or disagree with in their denomination? Like what did they still hold to or what did they change their mind about? What church do you attend now?
00:19:03
Speaker
And why? What do you like most about it? Are you happy there? What drew you to it? This is a great question to ask when you're in the talking stage on a dating app or an online dating website because a lot of times people will say that they're Christians and then when you ask them what church are you in now, they might say, oh, well, I actually haven't been to a church in a long time.
00:19:25
Speaker
And while there is definitely room for not attending church every single Sunday rigidly or, you know, if you have a chronic illness or if you're taking a break for a set period of time, the church, if you go back to my episode on the purpose of the church, the church is the gathering of like minded believers who are exposing themselves to the apostles teaching through scripture to fellowship and accountability. And if somebody doesn't want to invest in that, that's a red flag.
00:19:55
Speaker
Have you explored other denominations? And what do you think of the ones you visited? So another thing that I'm always looking at when I'm talking to someone who's been in the faith for a while or claims to be, is have they only been in one church tradition? And if so, do they read the materials of other church traditions? Are they at all exposing themselves
00:20:20
Speaker
to what other Christians believe. So if they grew up reformed and they're in a reformed church, do they only read John Piper books or have they ever read something by John Wesley or by a Catholic or by someone in the Orthodox tradition or a Mennonite? Have they ever read outside their tradition?
00:20:36
Speaker
If not, I would ask them why and I would ask them, you know, have you ever considered visiting another church just to understand how people do things in different church traditions and just see what that conversation looks like. Now, here is one of my absolute favorite activities. Josh and I did this when we were dating and we've in sense done it a lot while married because we've moved a lot. And here's my question. This is if you are actually dating somebody.
00:21:05
Speaker
Are you open to attending several different churches and discussing them? Josh and I did this when we were dating and it was such a good activity. Going to different denominations, going to these different services together, and then talking about them over lunch.
00:21:22
Speaker
What stood out to you? What did you disagree with? What did you agree with? What do you wish there was more of? Not in a consumer kind of way, but like looking at scripture and looking at what the church is meant to be and discussing whether these churches align with what scripture says. And then, of course, your own vision for how you as an individual or you as a couple could invest in that church and buy into their mission.
00:21:51
Speaker
Different churches have more explicit missions. You know, they all have one overarching mission, which is to spread the gospel and disciple believers. But some might have more of a focus on prayer, might have a focus on missions. There are different things that churches might be equipped to do. So I really encourage if you can, if you're in an actual dating relationship, it can be really helpful to visit different churches and discuss them as a sort of date.
00:22:16
Speaker
This next question may not be something a person can answer. It depends on if they are very aware of theology and not everybody is and that's okay. A lot of people don't know what the label would be for their theology.
00:22:32
Speaker
And this question is, what is your theological perspective? So if somebody can't answer this question, that is not a red flag. It just means that maybe they don't know what the label is or what the term is. And that's a lot of people today. It's a big reason why we do what we do at Every Woman a Theologian.
00:22:48
Speaker
This is not a red flag. It's just a question that might be helpful if somebody has shown you that they actually have a lot of interest in scripture and theology and could answer this for you. And they might say, I'm a Calvinist or I'm a Wesleyan or I'm a Pentecostal or I'm Catholic or whatever they might say.
00:23:05
Speaker
And then the last question is, can you see merit to other theological views within biblical Christianity? Or, and this is a little harsh, but do you think yours is the only way to interpret these passages?
Addressing Dogmatism in Relationships
00:23:18
Speaker
So say this nicer than I'm saying it right now, but this question is basically asking, are you able to give grace for different viewpoints?
00:23:29
Speaker
and stand on the essential doctrines? Or are you extremely dogmatic about everything? And this question might not even be one you have to ask. It might just become apparent as you talk to somebody online or you go out on your first date. Sometimes that dogmatism can come out very clearly. But on the flip side, and this might actually be a bigger issue that many of you are facing,
00:23:54
Speaker
is not dogmatism but passivity and borderline universalism and this is when people take the name of christian but they actually don't have a grounding in the sound teaching of scripture and what the bible has taught for 2000 years of church history and then before if we are looking at the old testament
00:24:18
Speaker
So if you're talking to someone who seems passive, a question you might want to ask could be, so how do you arrive at your conclusions about faith? What's your measure for that? And leave it open. Don't try to lead the question. Just try to kind of
00:24:38
Speaker
have them open up about how they are discerning their life decisions, how they are walking through their view of God, their view of others, their theology. And if they're saying things like, well, you know, I just I go by what I
00:24:55
Speaker
feel or, you know, God's voice just guides me and there's no authoritative basis for how they are navigating faith and navigating decisions. There's no reference to
00:25:11
Speaker
godly community or church, scripture, anything like that, you can ask some more clarifying questions to find out where do they actually stand in terms of the authority of the Bible and its ability to guide our decisions and then the Holy Spirit's ability to guide those decisions based on what the Bible says. These are some things that you can discuss over the course of whether it's an online chat or in person.
00:25:40
Speaker
I prefer to get off the online chat as soon as you can and in person, but I realize that the way that dating apps have shaped society, that's not always the easiest thing to do. But if you can move it to in person and have these conversations in person, I think that's always going to be a better conversation. Now, I'm not saying that you should just
00:26:03
Speaker
You know, bring out these questions like a machine gun one after another. There's a way to do this where you're listening, right? You're actively listening and you're housing this in somebody's experience. Even though this is dating.
00:26:17
Speaker
You really should treat these kinds of theological questions just like you would with somebody that you were discipling or just talking to about their faith, right? I think in dating, we can get really interested in this end goal and we can get really almost materialistic about the relationship. And this was true 10 years ago, too, where it's like, well, I get in, get out. I need to get what I need to get. See if this is worth my time. If it's not, I'm just leaving. This is a human being in front of you.
00:26:46
Speaker
This is a human being with a story. And yes, their story might affect you if you were to choose to be in a relationship with them. But you can still have an incredible influence and witness towards this person, even if you don't end up in a relationship. So I think we need to be careful for men and women to not come into a date
00:27:10
Speaker
materialistically, like, what can I get out of this? And you're impacting me right now, so I have no interest in this conversation other than finding out if I can get what I need out of this. No, this is still a person that God loves, a person with a story to be stewarded, a person who needs to be witness to. And so even if they're theologically wildly off base, you can be thinking about how you can be a witness to them in that moment.
00:27:37
Speaker
Okay, so now in the second half of this episode, I am going to address some questions that I got via Instagram. So I wanted to ask those who followed me,
Unequally Yoked Relationships
00:27:47
Speaker
what are some scenarios where this might be an issue, navigating theological differences in dating, and I will try to work through these on the latter half of this episode.
00:28:01
Speaker
Here's the first question, how to biblically discern if you are unequally yoked? So this passage about unequally yoking is in 1 Corinthians where it's talking about how there is no fellowship between light and darkness and that when we are covenanting, closely fellowshiping with someone else, they should share
00:28:25
Speaker
are Holy Spirit values. We should share that same spirit. Now, this doesn't mean you can't be friends with unbelievers, but it does mean that when you are looking at dating somebody,
00:28:40
Speaker
You should not be dating someone who is not a believer, and not just a believer in name only, but an actual active follower of Jesus Christ. And I know that's a hard word, I understand, but the reality is that I had to turn down gentlemen that I wanted to date when I was a single person,
00:29:01
Speaker
Because of this, it was the hardest thing I ever did and it was the best thing I ever did because I can promise you right now that Josh and I would not be married today if we did not have the Holy Spirit both residing in us and both believe that we answer to God for how we steward our marriage covenant.
00:29:18
Speaker
It is so serious who you commit your life to and asking those hard questions before you marry. So how do you know then if you are dating and you're unequally yoked? This is where it gets tough.
00:29:33
Speaker
because we've added so many layers onto what a man specifically must do to be a quote-unquote spiritual leader, we misconstrue spiritual leadership for true authentic faith. Like we mix it up and we think if he performs these things, so if he maybe aggressively, you know, says, this is the church we're going to go to, or these are my theological views, really dogmatic about it, you can mistake that for spiritual leadership
00:30:02
Speaker
when it might actually be just dogmatism and pride and theological pride. And on the other end of things, you know, you could end up with a guy who says, yeah, I am like, I'm just I'm seeking the Lord. He says all the right things, but he's actually really passive and he's waiting for you to do the leading. So I believe that everyone, you know, scripture makes the case that every person is responsible for their own faith before God.
00:30:29
Speaker
And the passages that talk about submission are only in reference to husbands and wives. It says wives submit to your own husbands in Ephesians 5, which means that you, as a woman who is dating, you are not responsible to submit to anyone that you are dating, ever. Like, no, he's not your husband. You don't submit to him. He's not responsible to lead you.
00:30:54
Speaker
You do get to look for signs that he will take initiative in his faith, but you are responsible for your own faith. You don't look to him to be the one leading you in your dating relationship. That is not something he's responsible to do. It's not something that you are to put on him.
00:31:12
Speaker
At the same time, though, as I said, you can look for signs that he is actively responsible for his own faith. He is actively seeking God on his own. And so in an unequally yoked relationship, what that would look like would be someone who, A, doesn't have the Holy Spirit at all, isn't a believer, just does not follow God at all. And maybe he tries to be a moral person, he'll come to church with you, doesn't count.
00:31:37
Speaker
He needs to be actively seeking God on his own. And that means getting accountability, getting men around him, being in the Word, however that looks, listening on audio, whatever, just being in the Word and seeking and growing.
00:31:51
Speaker
You can also be unequally yoked if a person is a believer but is extremely passive. Now, passive is not the same as lacking in knowledge. When I met my husband, he was lacking in knowledge, but he was eager to grow. There's a difference between that and someone who's just passively like, whatever you want, babe.
00:32:10
Speaker
So when you're looking at someone, think about the spirit of their heart, because that's what Jesus looks at all throughout the gospels. He gets back to the spirit of the heart. Who's the one who he says he'll sell everything he has to buy the field that has the treasure in it. That's the kind of passion that you want to look for. And it doesn't have to be loud. It can be quiet. He might be a servant hearted, administrative, gifted type of man or woman of your man listening.
00:32:37
Speaker
but you are allowing that person to pursue God of their own initiative and pursue Him with a passion the Holy Spirit has given. You're not acting as that Holy Spirit for them.
Challenges Across Christian Traditions
00:32:51
Speaker
Next question is, Orthodox versus Evangelical dating one another. Another person asked, Catholics and Protestants dating. Is it a good idea? I'm going to tell you something honestly, in all the years that I've been doing this. Never have I seen a Catholic and a Protestant or an Orthodox and a Protestant date where the Protestant did not have to convert.
00:33:14
Speaker
And it's also true for reformed most of the time. Catholics, Orthodox, reformed. If you are dating them, you must convert for them. And so you need to weigh that very carefully. You need to know that theology. You need to dig into it. You need to wrestle with it, compare it to scripture. And you need to decide if that is the kind of life that you are willing to commit to.
00:33:40
Speaker
And you need to decide if you are able to come under that teaching and teach it to your children. And yes, I do think you need to be thinking about children when you are dating. And here's why. Marriage as a covenant, the design of sex in marriage by God, is procreative. Procreation is one of the functions of sex.
00:34:03
Speaker
If it weren't, we wouldn't have to have birth control, right? So you need to be thinking about the family that you're entering or forming with this person and the children that would come of it, Lord Whaling, are you comfortable stewarding them in the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Reformed Church?
00:34:25
Speaker
Are you able to raise them in that tradition? And is your spouse, if they are of that denomination, are they fine with you teaching other denominational viewpoints or not?
00:34:39
Speaker
Could they be Catholic and go to mass every week, but go to Protestant vacation Bible schools? These are things that they don't, they sound so far off right now in the dating stage, but I promise you they cause so much conflict once you are at that stage and nobody thinks about it when they're dating. But then I get the emails once they've been married five years and their marriage is struggling because theologically they cannot get on the same page because they thought it's a non-issue when you're dating.
00:35:08
Speaker
So personally, as a Protestant, I had the opportunity to date Catholics and I always turned that down because the theological differences were too wide and I would not convert for them. Nor would they convert for me. So it was something where I could not come under that teaching and align with that teaching. Same with the Orthodox Church.
00:35:33
Speaker
Reform Church that is within the Protestant tradition. So I think there is more room there where you could maybe make it work. But again, it depends on how dogmatic the person is about that theology. And this would go also for Charismatic or Pentecostal any denomination if they're dogmatic about it.
00:35:50
Speaker
Most likely, the person who is less dogmatic and less invested is going to be the one who has to convert, so you need to navigate that accordingly. I would wrestle with it theologically, wrestle with it in prayer, but then also, if you decide, I can't come under this teaching for the rest of my life or bring my potential family under this teaching,
00:36:12
Speaker
Just know this, that God still has you. Yes, there are more people in the world. There really are. If this is what you are choosing to do by God's leading, then God is going to sustain you through it, even if that means you're breaking up. Practical advice for my younger sister on true deal breakers for marriage versus a workable difference. So this again, to me, really goes back to
00:36:38
Speaker
the heart of seeking God and the heart of true faith. What is true faith? Well, it's an allegiance to God that is grace through faith, right? He gives us grace. We respond to Him. In faith, our allegiance shifts from self to Christ, and then we become more and more like Christ over time.
00:36:59
Speaker
If someone is just not showing any fruit, they're not naturally propelled towards following God, then there is a significant problem. And that would be a true deal breaker. Whereas somebody who doesn't have a theological knowledge, that would be a workable difference, right? They could work on that. They could grow. And just as my husband has an engineering degree, I have a religion degree. And when we married, obviously, the gap between our theological knowledge was pretty significant.
00:37:28
Speaker
But over almost 10 years now, married, he has closed that gap by learning about these things. Even as I've continued to grow, he has closed that gap in his spiritual growth. And so we are much closer in terms of our knowledge. But you know what else?
00:37:47
Speaker
In terms of our actual spiritual maturity, he was ahead of me in many ways. He was ahead of me in sanctification when it came to his grace and mercy. Whereas I was behind because I was struggling so much with criticism and judgment. So that's something to think about too, is what's the state of their sanctification?
00:38:07
Speaker
Okay, the next question is when one party believes only their denomination or practices are pleasing
Risks of Rigid Denominational Dogmatism
00:38:12
Speaker
to God. So this goes back to way at the beginning when I was talking about that idea of understanding the tears of doctrine and determining core doctrine and knowing what's essential and what issues to give grace on. If somebody is this dogmatic, it doesn't matter what denomination they are, you are the one who's going to have to come under that or convert for that. And I'll be honest with you, that concerns me a lot.
00:38:36
Speaker
for the long-term health of this marriage because if the husband believes this and if it's paired with an extremely patriarchal understanding of the marriage passages of scripture, you are looking at a potential for a man, potential, not always, potential for a man to abuse those passages of scripture on submission and to force his wife
00:39:06
Speaker
to follow these kinds of spiritual practices that he believes are the only way in a way that is not in alignment with how husbands are to graciously love and lead their wives.
00:39:20
Speaker
And again, this is sneaky because guys like this, they come off as spiritually authoritative. And it can be really refreshing at first. Like, wow, this guy's got it all figured out. He's so confident in his faith. He's so almost aggressively leading. And when you're used to passivity, which a lot of women are in today's dating culture, that can be really refreshing. So I would just say, caution flag.
00:39:45
Speaker
Let's see what are his views on the submission passages because submission is freely chosen. It's deferring. It's coming under the mission. It's freely chosen of the wife. The husband is never to force it. He's never to make it happen. It's a command to wife. It's not a command to husbands. Husbands are commanded to love. So if you are dating a man who's highly interested in submission, that's a red flag. But then if they're super dogmatic about the denominational practices,
00:40:13
Speaker
That would be a caution flag to me, something to ask some more questions about. OK, another question was reformed versus not reformed. Can it work? So again, going back to kind of the Catholic Orthodox thing, I kind of talked about this, but I want to go more into depth. If you're like, what's reformed? OK, reformed is a term for a branch of theology that came out of the Protestant Reformation.
00:40:38
Speaker
think Martin Luther. Martin Luther tried to reform the Catholic Church. They didn't want him to do it so they kicked him out and he began a branch of churches that then splintered into many other types of reformed churches and what characterizes reformed theology is that it's covenantal so it looks at scripture in terms of the covenants and movements of God. It's confessional so it has creeds that it confesses and
00:41:03
Speaker
Another thing to note about Reformed Theology that is not necessarily Calvinistic every single time, but one of the distinctives of Reformed Theology is their view of God's sovereignty. The way that Reformed people understand God's sovereignty is the very specific definition, and it usually means all causing or determining. God is causing or determining most
00:41:32
Speaker
Things in the world are all things in the world, including electing specific individuals to salvation. So this is a pretty specific view. Again, it's only found in the Reformed theological world. It is not found in Catholic Orthodox, Anabaptist, Wesleyan, or traditional Baptist viewpoints.
00:41:55
Speaker
So it's a distinctive to them and it's a pretty divisive doctrine. So if you do not believe this, if you are in one of these other traditions that don't believe that God's electing specifically who will be saved, then this can be a pretty difficult doctrine to navigate. But is it impossible? No. I'm a Wesleyan, so I don't adhere to reformed views of predestination. I have episodes about that. I have a book about that. You can read it all up if you want.
00:42:25
Speaker
But I was in a Presbyterian Church of America for a year and I was in a Reformed Baptist Church for four years.
00:42:35
Speaker
And I still regularly read and consume reform materials, even though I myself am not reformed. So it's possible for sure to be in a reformed church, especially a healthy and gracious reformed church, and not be reformed. And in the same way, I think it's definitely possible to be dating someone who's reformed and not be reformed. Because in this case, you're both Protestants.
00:43:01
Speaker
Okay a few last questions because I know I'm not going to get to all of them but I wanted to try and hit most of them. This one says it's not theological but I feel like my boyfriend ends up using commentaries instead of studying for himself. I would honestly say that the fact he's using commentaries is a good sign.
00:43:19
Speaker
Yes, maybe he isn't directly studying every single passage himself, but using a commentary is way better than using a devotional book or not even studying at all. Maybe he feels like he needs to study helps. I think that's a good thing. I would respect that. Now, if he's only reading a certain angle or he's not even reading the Bible itself and only the commentaries, then sure, maybe you gently have a conversation about that.
00:43:45
Speaker
I personally think that if he's reading commentaries, that is a pretty positive sign. So as we wrap up this episode,
00:43:52
Speaker
I don't know if any of this was helpful for you. You're the ones out here in these tough dating streets having to navigate this, having to have these conversations, talking with guys who say they're Christians and then you get a couple messages in on the dating app or website and they're like, oh, I believe all paths
Trusting God's Sovereignty
00:44:07
Speaker
leave to heaven. And you're like, well, that was a waste of time. Or you go out on a date and you find out the only guys who are reading their Bible are like super hardcore into submission or whatever. And it's just really hard.
00:44:19
Speaker
I get it. Or, you know, if you're a guy listening to this, I've heard this too, that there's girls who say they're Christians or have a little, you know, Psalm 121 in their Instagram bio and there's no substance there. And that is, it's really disappointing. But here's the thing.
00:44:35
Speaker
God is sovereign over your dating journey. And the higher your view of his sovereignty, the more you believe that he is at work in your heart, your life, your dating life, the more open handed you are in terms of him working and always having your best in mind.
00:44:57
Speaker
The less control you need to exert and this is true for marriage and parenting too so for married people there's a temptation to try to control your spouse into the kind of person you want them to be and Only when you open your hands to God's sovereignty to work in them Can you be at peace in your marriage? Same with parenting if you're parenting and you're parenting from control and fear God isn't sovereign to you. God isn't the one working and so
00:45:25
Speaker
Over and over and over again, the walk of faith for the Christian, whether they're single in dating or they're married or they're parenting children, they are empty nesters with adult children, whatever it may be, you have to let God be God. Don't try to play God in your dating relationships, including trying
00:45:43
Speaker
to force somebody into a theological perspective that feels safer to you or to take the guy who's right in all these certain checkboxes, but he's just wrong on the theology. The theology is the biggest checkbox. That's the biggest thing in terms of his actual relationship with God, his view of God, his view of the world, his view of women and marriage,
00:46:03
Speaker
That does affect you. It greatly affects you. It affects your entire rest of your life. And so it can feel so easy to just be like, it all looks great on paper, but is his heart, is her heart in the right place? Is their heart, has it given over allegiance to God? Because everything else can fall into place if God is truly sovereign in their life.
00:46:28
Speaker
and everything can fall into place when God is sovereign in yours. So no matter how hard dating is, even if there's no one on the horizon or if you've got lots of plates spinning and lots of people that you're talking to,
00:46:42
Speaker
Just keep in mind that God is the one who knows both the future and the present, and that he grants wisdom, and he is found by those who seek him. And so seek him. Ask for his wisdom. He does not withhold wisdom from those who ask, and he will lead you in your dating relationships, including when you're asking those tough theological questions.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:47:08
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Verity Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, would you take the time to leave us a review? It helps so many other women around the world find out about Verity and about every woman a theologian as a ministry and a shop. We appreciate you and I hope you'll be back next week as we continue to go deeper into God's word and the heart of Jesus Christ.