Transcript
Speaker: this is The problem with punishment podcast boiler alert the problem with punishment is it doesn't work. But the bigger problem is that we turn to punishment in every aspect of our lives.
Speaker: From our families to our neighborhoods, our boroughs, our city, we keep expecting punishment to make things better, when for the most part, it makes whatever problem we're addressing worse. Every time punishment fails, it hurts.
Speaker: Some people have taken the pain of that failure and turned it into purpose. I'm your host, Kathleen Pequeño, and I'll be talking with a range of New Yorkers who've experienced firsthand the failure of punishment and who found or created something better to do instead.
Speaker: From gun violence to child abuse to drug addiction, New York can lead the way in actually solving some of our most pressing problems. But first, we have to talk about the problem with punishment.
Speaker: Welcome to our episode, The Problem with Punishment and Housing. There were a lot of ways this episode could go. It's one of the topics where we discussed like, wow, we could do a whole season on the ways in which people are punished through their housing or because of their housing.
Speaker: And that included evictions as a form of punishment. in New York State is working on a number of changes to the law that would make evictions a little more rational and a little more fair.
Speaker: The treatment of NYCHA tenants, which is often in some stage of punishment, either through screening or loss of housing or the inability to have certain family members live with you.
Speaker: There are lots of ways in which people get punished through their housing. And there's a form of punishment and housing that's really common, which is punishing people forever for their previous felony convictions by denying them housing, by making it difficult for them to stay in housing, for making it difficult for them to join family members who might already live somewhere.
Speaker: So in this episode, that's what we decided to focus on. And we're going to open with a story from one of the members of the Justice Beyond Punishment Collaborative, one of the members of the podcast team, Reverend Dr. Sharon White-Harrigan, who's going to talk about her experience when she was looking for housing after her release from incarceration.
Speaker: We had this conversation at the Castle, which is the flagship housing project of the Fortune Society. And the Fortune Society is supporting many of the tens of thousands of New Yorkers who come back to New York City every year after leaving prison or jail.
Speaker: and who needs support with housing. So most of the conversations in this episode are from our visit to the castle, and we also take you on a little tiny tour. But first, let's start out by listening to Sharon share her story of what it was like to try and find housing after her release from prison.
Speaker: My husband and I both were formerly incarcerated and when we were looking for an apartment, we had the credit, we had the income, we had the security deposit, we had everything.
Speaker: And then it was looking great. You know, here's this wonderful, dynamic, lovely couple who happens to be faith leaders. And then I got a phone call where the broker asked for my husband's birthday.
Speaker: And then ah the next phone call was, sorry, I can't work with you anymore. And the apartment is already taken. just like that after we paid $100 each for the application. I mean, we would that we there was no reason to deny us. None.
Speaker: None. We checked off all the boxes. And so that began ah series of of denials because of the criminal. And no one, after about four five denials, no one gave us a legitimate answer as to why is that elephant in the room.
Speaker: The elephant in the room that Sharon's talking about is a background check, a background check that reveals any sort of previous contact with the criminal legal system. Now we have to remember, these databases are not infallible, and they're also only one piece of information that the landlord could be considering when they're trying to figure out if a prospective tenant would make a good tenant or neighbor.
Speaker: Now, part of the problem with these background checks is they, in effect, wind up having the ability to erase any other information that is part of this process as people are making these judgment calls.
Speaker: I'm going to pause the story there. We're going to come back to Sharon's story in a little bit. Sharon's experience looking for housing was years after her release. She had been living in supportive housing.
Speaker: But how does someone wind up in supportive housing? The problems with locating housing with a previous felony conviction start immediately upon your release. As we were talking to different folks who have experience with the system, we asked if we could talk to someone to get more of a sense of what this experience is like.
Speaker: And that's how I got to meet Ashanti, who agreed to talk with me for the podcast about what her experience was after her release for serving time for a single felony conviction.
Speaker: Upon my departure from from prison, you know, you don't have your own place to live, so you're probably going to go, you know, stay with some relative And you have to, you know, think about abiding by their rules, whatever they may say. You know, you have to get along with this person. You have to be okay with whether you have a parole officer or probation.
Speaker: For me personally, some things that I kind of encountered, some challenges were just living with my sister and just not being around for a very long time. kind of grow from people.
Speaker: And you don't know them that way. ah You kind of don't know them as you as you did because so many, so much things happened in between that time period of when you were gone. So it was that. And then it was just not getting along with her. So I just wasn't able to live there. So then it's at that point, it's like, where am I going to go? i just came home from prison a month ago.
Speaker: i don't have too many resources. What do I do? People's choices in this situation are so limited because she doesn't necessarily have a job yet. She doesn't have a recent employment history.
Speaker: So luckily, she had someone in the system who was willing to be supportive. And they connected her with one of the other organizations supporting the thousands of New Yorkers who find themselves in the situation each year.
Speaker: I called my parole officer and she told me about Exodus. And Exodus was um transitional community, yeah um helps people um and they help like keep pacific low.
Speaker: And they help people upon their life release from incarceration, whether that be with housing them, know helping them with jobs, you know helping them with people skills, resumes, like anything just to further the growth of the people who have been recently released from incarceration.
Speaker: So I got with them and they put me in one of their hostels. And i was with them for about, I want to say about a year and a half. And through them, obtained the Section 8 housing voucher.
Speaker: So they definitely helped me do that. Definitely thank them for that because without them, like, you know, Again, i would have had nowhere to stay when it was because I was in the um the prison system that I was able to... I was in a hotel, essentially. like you know I had my own room, own bathroom.
Speaker: So it wasn't like a totally uncomfortable experience. And I can't say that most people have experienced something you know where they can you know have some peace of mind while going through something like that. like while having being unhoused, you know?
Speaker: So it's always that, like, you know, you're coming home from prison and you don't really have your own thing, you know, initially. And, you know, you may deal with that period of being unhoused and like, what do I do? So that's kind of scary.
Speaker: It's hard enough finding housing in New York without all of the additional burdens that comp with having a previous felony conviction. We're talking about tens of thousands of people reentering New York City from prison every year and tens of thousands of additional folks who have any sort of previous contact with the criminal legal system.
Speaker: So, you know, what are we looking at? And for that, we turn to the Neighborhood Defender Service and Zani Rakoff, who is one of the attorneys there. So what we're seeing sort of in our practice when folks, you know, come into the office or are referred to us for help obtaining housing or because they've lost housing, is that it's very difficult to maintain housing if you have criminal legal system contact.
Speaker: And in New York City, we already have, you know, sort of a lack of affordable housing. But the barriers are even higher if, you know, a private landlord can run a background check before offering you an apartment and see, oh, you know, you have an open case or a conviction.
Speaker: The language that we use to talk about these issues is so important. Zani does talk about the criminal legal system, which I tend to use instead of the criminal justice system.
Speaker: Lots of our guests and the people who've had direct contact with these systems also call it that because it's important at times that we distinguish between when we're just talking about the law and when we're talking about justice.
Speaker: And when we're talking about housing issues, you know, I have noticed for many years people making a distinction between talking about people being homeless or people being unhoused. And that came up in my conversation with Zani. I asked her about her choice of words to use that. And this is what she said.
Speaker: I think the distinction between homeless and unhoused, you know, places the emphasis on like, that's your character if you are referring to someone as homeless, as opposed to these are the circumstances that might have led to you leaving losing housing and then, you know, being reliant on other forms of housing.
Speaker: So yeah, some people find themselves unhoused. New York housing is tough, very tough. And then for some people, it's even harder. So when someone finds themselves at the neighborhood defender's practice, I asked Ani what sort of things they were seeing people facing.
Speaker: The difficulties that folks face when they're trying to find housing with either a felony conviction, a misdemeanor conviction, even just an open criminal matter, it's sort of insurmountable.
Speaker: Because regardless of what form of housing you're applying to, whether that's, you know, a private apartment, whether you're trying to get public housing, whether All of those are at some point probably performing a criminal background check.
Speaker: So for public housing, they have their rules on eligibility and certain, you know, offenses are just statutorily ineligible for public housing.
Speaker: Not to mention the fact that, you know, if you're applying for public housing, you're probably on a wait list for, you know, many, many years before a unit becomes available. A private landlord can run a background check before offering you an apartment and see, oh, you know, you have an open case or a conviction.
Speaker: Similarly, if you're applying to public housing, you know, they're also running a background check and they do things a little less discretionarily. You know, they sort of have their own standards of, okay, this is an automatic bar to public housing.
Speaker: And again, public housing has the same barriers to everyone, um which is that there aren't enough units and you're on a wait list for many, many years. So there's sort of the the general housing shortage, but then there's added barriers on top of that.
Speaker: Maybe if we do a season two of this podcast, we'll do a separate episode about public housing. For this episode, we were largely focused on private housing. And when Zani mentioned you could have problems with your housing from an open criminal matter, I asked her to explain more about what she meant by that.
Speaker: Because even having an arrest, which remember the point of the criminal legal system is that you were innocent until proven guilty, having an arrest is not any sort of proof that you have actually done something wrong.
Speaker: But even having an arrest could lead to issues with a person's housing. Something like an open case should not impact your eligibility for housing because that's, you know, not a conviction yet.
Speaker: I think the places where we see open cases affect people's eligibility for housing are if you're already living in housing and you're arrested and somehow a landlord finds out about it. because there are laws that allow landlords to commence eviction cases for breaching your lease, which, you know, certain arrests are considered to breach your lease if they occur in housing, or being a nuisance is another one. So, you know, if you had a dispute with another tenant in your building, a landlord can bring an eviction case over that.
Speaker: Then Zani brought up something that she said is an archaic law. And I'm just going to say right now, anytime someone says that, it's not going to be good. And it's going to involve some word that no one knows how to spell anymore. In this case, this is bawdy house, B-A-W-D-Y.
Speaker: And I will let Zani explain you this law that is still on the books. There's also this very sort of archaic set of laws called the body house laws, which used to be, you know, if you were using your apartment for prostitution or whatever, now those laws are still on the books and are used for, you know, if someone has a drug bust in their apartment.
Speaker: There might be a dismissal in the criminal case. That case might go away. Great. But a landlord can still use the underlying facts to then commence an eviction case and basically say, you know, you're a problem tenant and we don't want you in our building.
Speaker: There's no beyond a reasonable doubt in a housing proceeding. There's, you know... Do we think this happened? ah And how bad is it? And does it pose a risk to the health and safety of other tenants or staff?
Speaker: There's certainly a difference in who we see these laws being enforced against. You know, if you're throwing a big party as opposed to, you know, you're living in lower income housing and communities of color.
Speaker: I think landlords tend to call the cops a little bit more. Wow. Okay. So Zani knows a lot about the different barriers that people face to finding and keeping housing with a previous felony conviction in New York City.
Speaker: She has kind of a downer role in this episode, but she did it well. She's fighting the good fight. I'm going to bring her back later in the episode with some good news about something that's actually getting a little bit better.
Speaker: We're still in Harlem. Let's go back to the Fortune Society and the castle. And the other person who was sitting with me when I was talking with Sharon that day, this is Angela Scott.
Speaker: And let's let her introduce herself. My name is Angela Scott. I am the Associate Vice President for Congregate Housing. I have been with Fortune since 2012. And my portfolio includes our Emergency Transitional Residence, the Fortune Academy,
Speaker: our permanent ah supportive building, Castle Gardens, as well as our food and nutrition program. And while we were there, I asked Angela if I could walk around recording a little bit of a mini tour for our listeners. So here you go.
Speaker: So we're entering Fortune Academy, also publish the campus. And we have a total of 90 beds for emergency and transitional housing for congested and impacted persons. 35 beds are for emergency housing and 55 beds are transitional.
Speaker: Side has a front desk kind of situation. Right, right. So when residents come in, they sign in. Hey, how are you? Same to see you. Good to see you too. oh Good morning, good morning, good morning. are you doing? Good morning, good morning. All righty. Our guys didn't sign in. Right, right. So every normal folks that are in the office doesn't.
Speaker: There's a phone that they can use if they don't have to function. They need to take phone calls, so it's free of charge. This is the dining room space, bro. So this is where residents are able to pump needles.
Speaker: We provide three meals a day, Monday through Friday. And then this is people in emergency situations, right? Yes, emergency situations. So these are my case managers who work with our tenants who actively live in our permanent security housing house or gardens. So when I say participants versus tenants, these are individuals who have active leases who are living in their own apartment.
Speaker: and our um mixed use supportive building, the castle gardens. Yeah, so this case manager. So everyone was assigned a case manager pretty much. Wow. And they helped to maintain their housing and you know life so that they can to stay house. This is also another communal space for the residents to hang out right and and you know create community have some sense of community yes absolutely all right then you have a good one see you later look like you're getting on your test thank you i'm i'm predicting at eight plus all right so we have homes instead of downstairs so we have basic level first second third and fourth floors elevator we have two dorms set up with us for here
Speaker: and then the rest areboards and it could be anywhere from two individuals to make four individuals so well Whenever you're talking about how we're going to get better at reentry services in New York City, how we're going to get better at housing people with previous felony convictions,
Speaker: or any sort of criminal legal system contact, Fortune Society is going to come up. They are really a bedrock community resource in this work. They have really shown that change is possible for individuals, for neighborhoods, for systems.
Speaker: And I think it all comes back to their tagline, which is building people, not prisons. Music We're not judging anyone who comes to our doors, right, regardless to whatever their past circumstances may have been. We're not judging anyone. We are meeting that person. We're welking them welcoming them home. and We are embracing them and bringing them into our community.
Speaker: um We ensure that they are connected to necessary services, either within Fortune. We have... Our main office in Long Island City, we have a benefit access program. We have employment and education services. We have outpatient mental health and substance use treatment services to treat any um behavioral health addiction needs.
Speaker: We have our alternatives incarceration program. We you know we have our ah policy center. you know We're we're under doing a day-to-day direct service where And then we're also doing work on the policy end.
Speaker: First off, the cost of rent. Not many of our folks who are returning to the community have the income to be able to afford the rent currently in New York City.
Speaker: Then there are folks who, because of their parole conditions, they can't go outside the borough, right? You have to stay within whatever the county in which you were committed and crime committed. So you can't go out of your borough. You have to get approval to do that. Where most outside of New York City, the rents are cheaper. Like even if you go upstate, like Kingston or Middletown. is So rents, you could probably buy a home for the amount youre going to pay for rent, right?
Speaker: You're not able to go outside your borough. You can't afford the cost of rent. It's horrendous how much a studio apartment is going for it. And a lot of our folks have, you know, some of them have not had any employment history for a significant amount of time.
Speaker: You have to have the income. You have to have money. And, you know, unfortunately, some of our folks were underemployed prior to incarceration. Right. So now imagine post-incarceration and coming and trying to find some place to stay.
Speaker: It's difficult. Very difficult. Sometimes I can't really describe the secret sauce that is fortune. ah I think it's ah it's a ah number of things. But I think what's important is that, you know, anyone who comes through our doors, um we treat them with respect.
Speaker: and We treat them with dignity. And we, you know, do everything within our power to ensure that they're connected to services and also receive the supports. And the key to how they've been able to do all this work is the fact that they center their leadership and create space for people who have been directly affected by this issue.
Speaker: People like Angela. Angela.
Speaker: I found my way to this work because of my own experience. I am just as impacted myself. When I was quite young, I was in a relationship with an abusive partner, and it ultimately culminated into one of us getting hurt, and I unfortunately had to do time.
Speaker: So prior to me actually doing time, I got connected pretty early with reentry services. I started with an organization, and then now since um they're no longer in operation, but it was called Justice Works Community.
Speaker: And they were providing services to justice-impacted women. And it started with learning how to use Microsoft Word. Wow, that was not product placement, unless the Gates Foundation wants to fund season two of this podcast.
Speaker: I will let Angela tell more of her transformation. I actually gained employment with them. And they had a campaign called Mothers in Prison, Children in Crisis.
Speaker: So I was a production, quite a production assistant. And I would help with getting and the, um you know, media, the information out to the different facilities. Many nights, folding leaflets and and newsletters to the women in Bedford and Taconic and Albion. ah And ah actually, they did a few rallies, a few actions down by the New York Supreme Court. We actually had Ozzie Davis, may he rest in peace, participate. ah So i i that's how i I got into the work um through my own experience.
Speaker: And ultimately, I was recruited to come here with fortune by my friend who worked here at the time who was in HR. And she was also justice impacted.
Speaker: And she said, you know, there's opportunity. I know you can do this. You have, you know, skill set. You have your MSW. You can... You've worked with the homeless population, and now it's just really focusing on people who are justice impacted. And I actually interviewed in this very room for the position, and here I am now doing a podcast with you guys. Awesome. Yeah. Awesome.
Speaker: oh like What was the timeline on this between you wrapping up your time inside and... So my case was a little interesting. um and And it was interesting because at the time of my case, there was a similar case in Bronx County.
Speaker: So this all happened back in 1992. ninety two And the case that was happening at the same time as mine, it was an older white woman who shot her husband in the back.
Speaker: She got probation. I got one in the third to three. Okay. And so the case, I i was arrested in 92. I went to trial.
Speaker: um My case was, I was found guilty in 95. There was an appeal process. um I lost the appeal. And ultimately, I was committed um to Bedford Hills in 97, 1997.
Speaker: My case was a little different. At the time of my arrest, I was in college. I was working. um So I had college credits already. And just by happenstance, by me being in Bedford, that's when they restarted the college program.
Speaker: And I was able to take some courses while I was at Bedford. And once I was released, I was able to enroll at Marymount Manhattan College, who was a part of the um college consortium at that time, but um providing the classes to Bedford. So I was able to come home, enroll in at Marymount, finish my um bachelor's, and ultimately apply to graduate school and and and graduate from Hunter School of Social Work.
Speaker: Angela's journey is amazing. And one of the steps in that journey was access to education. I really, in season one of this podcast, wanted to do an episode of all the stupid problems we create since we've limited access to college and educational programs for people while they're incarcerated.
Speaker: We didn't have room for that episode in season one. Plus, I'm not sure I could fit all that on the title card, but it comes back to there are resources that really specifically change the trajectory of people's lives.
Speaker: And one of them is access to education. One of them is support system, community, and connection. So often, wherever we go and talk to people who are solving tough problems, part of the solution is support networks, strong support networks for individuals.
Speaker: None of us become what we are on our own. And let's listen to Angela talk more about this and then see how support networks are a key part of the story of finding housing for all of the people we're talking to today.
Speaker: I'm so grateful for, you know, the support of my family and the people who I connected with prior to and while in while I was incarcerated to help. me with my re-entry process. Had I not had that support, I don't know where my i might have been.
Speaker: But thankfully, you know, I had the support of my family where my daughter didn't have to go into child welfare. Literally, I got up that morning, took her to school, told her, I will see you when I get back.
Speaker: And I went to court and like I got committed. But thankfully, when I was released, I came right back to where I left her. and Right. Right. And that's just for me, thankfully, right? But there's so many, many, many others who do not have that same level of support.
Speaker: And you may be wondering from earlier in the episode, how did Sharon find housing? And the answer is a support network. Thankfully, it took someone, one of our our mentors, who happened to have been a professor in Bedford Hills Correctional, and she was, she's retired now, but a real estate mogul, and wind up getting an apartment in her building for some of us that were coming out of incarceration.
Speaker: And if it wasn't for her, we would have been another one of the statistics. we would have been in the shelter system. And the importance of having other people on your side came up in my conversation with Ashanti and her housing journey as well.
Speaker: There were so many ups and downs, so many times that I wanted to give up, so many times that I just didn't think things were going to work out. But again, um i got around so many good people that, you know, seen, you know, how bad i really, know, wanted housing and they were willing to, you know, help me to get to the place that needed to be. Because I couldn't have done it by myself.
Speaker: When we talk about support systems, a strong support system is good for any individual and can make differences for individuals. But support systems also can look at changing the circumstances in which we all operate, right? It is important to provide individual assistance to people and help people on their journeys and also to look at systems changes that can reduce the barriers along the way for lots of people, including people you never met.
Speaker: So for that, I'm going to turn back to Zani Rockoff from Neighborhood Defenders to talk about the Fair Chance Act, which, by the way, Fortune Society was instrumental in helping to pass.
Speaker: Now in New York City, there was recently a law passed called the Fair Chance Act for Housing, which is very similar to legislation that already exists for employment discrimination, which basically says that if a private landlord is running a background check, the things that they consider are...
Speaker: Convictions for felonies within the past five years and convictions for misdemeanors within the past three years. um And, of course, in all this legislation, there's always a pass-through for sex offense convictions because, you know, it's very hard to get a legislature to not overlook those.
Speaker: um So something like an open case should not impact your eligibility for housing because that's, you know, not a conviction yet.
Speaker: You know, this is where I'm going to talk to landlords listening to this podcast and say, I am also a landlord. I am not a New York City landlord. I can appreciate that that might be a whole different ball of wax. But I am a landlord and have been for many years.
Speaker: And I think it comes back to at times not letting prejudgment cloud our judgment about who's going to be a good tenant, who's going to make a good tenant and a good neighbor in our housing. You know, landlords need tenants as much as tenants need landlords.
Speaker: So how do we build the sorts of relationships that let everyone benefit, where people get to have the peaceful enjoyment of their housing and landlords get to have the peaceful enjoyment of their retirement?
Speaker: And it's strange because this unfolds on the individual level, but it unfolded on the kind of organizational and institutional level when Fortune Society first wanted to transform a building and become a landlord themselves in Harlem.
Speaker: And Angela shared a little bit about that story as well. This story about what happens when people just assume that formerly incarcerated people will make bad neighbors or tenants.
Speaker: It is the the stereotype that, oh, they're going to bring more crime to my block. They're going to harm My family, they want to kick my dog. Like, you know, those those crazy thoughts. So just a little background.
Speaker: Initially, when Fortune opened the Fortune Academy in 2002, there was huge opposition. Biggest opposition was one of the buildings that is on this block. And they've, are you going to bring murderers and rapists and, you know, child molesters? These are the people. This is the safest block here.
Speaker: Literally. um We have periodic um um community meetings for our tenants. And last year we had a meeting with the um community affairs um from the local precinct showed up to the um meeting to meet with the tenants and everything and to just update them around their work, you know, improving community relations and Safety in the neighborhood.
Speaker: And the captain who attended the meeting said, you know, you guys are living on one of the safest blocks here and and in our district. And have people with felony convictions who are residing in our building. and You got like nothing but people with felony convictions. Nothing but. all one hundred All more my bets, right? up And he said, you guys are living in one of the safest blocks in our district.
Speaker: And from, we don't want you here, don't come here, you're going to bring all these problems. They now use our space for community board meetings. We're a polling location.
Speaker: yeah. As a matter of fact, I got to get it ready um for the primaries that are coming up in June. um We're a polling location. We do a weekly produce distribution. It was a lot of work to show this community that...
Speaker: We're good neighbors. We're part of this community. We're here to support and enrich and enhance the community. i mean We're not here to to harm it or detract from it. right And it was a lot of work that went into um you know gaining the community's trust.
Speaker: um And we had to show that the stereotypes of you know murderers, the rapists, and all this. No, no. of our participants, let and it's some of some of some of our participants I mean, we have a gentleman who um came home after serving 40-something years, and i trust him with my life. You know, um he is one of the most humblest, kindest gentlemen I've ever encountered.
Speaker: And whatever happened 40-plus years ago when he was ah adolescent, I think people get caught up in what happened in the past and are not able to really move forward and see the individual who is in front of them and all the work that they have done. Because, i mean, honestly, as a formerly justice impacted person, I had to do a lot of reconciliation with myself for my crime and what happened, right? Because I had to be able to function for my family, for my daughter, and also ultimately have a productive life.
Speaker: So I had to do my own kind of reconciliation and work. And while we were on site at Fortune, we did have a shout out to David Rothenberg, their founder.
Speaker: Our founder, David Rothenberg, God bless him. He's 90 plus. If I give his age, he'll probably, he'll say, no, add six months to it. oh ah He still serves in a volunteer capacity.
Speaker: He comes every Thursday. all We have a community meeting that we hold every Thursday at 6 p.m. here. And to um it's a forum for volunteers. current and past participants or any community members that can come in and share their re-entry experiences, their process.
Speaker: um There are folks who, um you know, who who have been home for 30 years and they still have to go through the re-entry. Like i still they're still in a transition, you know, they're still transitioning.
Speaker: um So the fact that the founder of this organization who started this space over 50 years ago still is here in a volunteer capacity, he comes here as well as our Logalously location, as And our other locations that we have, um and we have two locations in the Bronx, he still is involved and he knows participants' names.
Speaker: So um I think it starts from that level and it trickles all the way down to quarters. I think knowing that someone involved There to listen and understand what they're experiencing. Because a lot of times so folks go and receive services from different service providers and you're talking to someone who has no lived experience, sometimes, most times.
Speaker: And ah think that having individuals with the lived experience is helpful. It's very helpful. Yeah. Maybe you were out and about while you listened to this episode. Maybe you were at home.
Speaker: But if you're a housed person listening to this, do remind you that being housed or unhoused is just a state of being. It's temporary. But we do better... when we all have access to safe, cared for housing.
Speaker: The phrase housing is a human right came up in the conversations I had for this episode with people because I think the more you've had contact or work with people who have not, at the end of a day, had a secure place to be, the more you really see that we cannot live our lives as human beings without access to housing.
Speaker: The phrase housing is human rights sounds like a wonky thing, but it's really about imagine what your life would be like if at the end of the day, there was nowhere to rest. There was nowhere to lay down. There was nowhere to relax and be safe in that moment.
Speaker: Access to housing makes a difference for individuals, for families, for communities. And we have to continue fighting for the changes that make it available to everyone and make sure that housing doesn't become just another way to punish people.
Speaker: For the ultimate last word in this episode, though, I'm going to go back to Angela Scott at Fortune. Everyone should have a place to go home, even if they if it's a 10 by 10 box with ah with a kitchen, little kitchenette area, is someplace for me to bathe.
Speaker: That's still home. That could be my home. That's my space. That's a space for me. This podcast was produced in Brooklyn, New York, the unceded ancestral lands of the Lenape and Canarsie people.
Speaker: We thank all the ancestors for caring for this land over the generations, and we're committed to the work of creating a shared future that includes the Native communities that are still here and all the people who call this land home. I want to thank Angela Scott of the Fortune Society for welcoming us to the castle on a busy day and for sharing so much about the programs at Fortune and also her own personal journey.
Speaker: You can learn more about the work of Fortune Society at fortunesociety.org. Thanks also to Ashanti for sharing her story with us and to Zani Rockoff at Neighborhood Defender Service Housing Defense Team for explaining what they do to help people get housed and stay housed.
Speaker: And I want to extend a personal thanks to Paul Solomon and the folks at Sponsors Inc. in Eugene, Oregon. Many years ago, they reset my understanding of what is possible when it comes to building supportive housing for people after incarceration.
Speaker: Our podcast team for this episode was Dr. Candice King, Reverend Dr. Sharon White-Harrigan, and Tess Weiner. Sharon White-Harrigan made so many of the connections for this episode, but also shared her own story.
Speaker: So I want to extend a special thank you for that. Thanks to our production partner, Jewel Cave Studios, and our ever-so-patient creative partner, Julius Shepard Morgan. I'm your host, Kathleen Pequeño.
Speaker: This podcast is a project of the Justice Beyond Punishment Collaborative at the Center for Justice at Columbia University, with support from Trinity Wall Street. You can learn more about the collaborative and our other creative projects at beyondpunishment.org.
Speaker: Thanks so much for listening.
