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Podcast 43 - The Trinity
1 Playsin 6 hours
Join us as we discuss the 3 part nature of God and the difficulty it presents to our finite human understanding.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:09
Speaker
Welcome back to our podcast here at Grove Hill Church. We're excited you're joining us today as we continue our conversations about different things in theology, a personal journey in the Word, learning more about what it is we believe, why we believe it, those kinds of things. Got my friend Kyle Hess with me today.
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome back, Kyle. John is on the road doing ministry-type things. That's right. We miss him today, have him back with us probably next week.
Exploring the Mystery of the Trinity
00:00:36
Speaker
But today we're going to take on a really, really difficult subject. It's an easy one. Easy. ah You and I both might wish we had been on the road today. I know. This is a hard one. We get asked it a lot of times because it is one of those mysteries about God. It's just a little bit different. And that is the subject of the Trinity. Yeah.
00:00:55
Speaker
I feel like you should go dun, dun. Dun, du dun, dun. Yeah. So where do you begin to unpack that, especially for teenagers? oh I would say ah oftentimes we try to let our human mind understand it and I don't know that that's even possible for a man to grasp ah the whole of the Trinity. We can come up with all the little structures that people do. ah They're all pieces of the same pie but you're diminishing the idea of it because you're cutting them into three instead of one. But we we try to we try to explain it with human needs or human words. And um i don't I don't necessarily think we can. right um There's an area of trust where we look at Scripture and what it says, and we we believe. There's nothing that contradicts it.
00:01:40
Speaker
We just believe what He asks us to do. As far as the students, I get this question often, and it's the same thing. We can't can't necessarily human explaining through it, yeah but we just trust what God has for it. Yeah, yeah and that's the truth. I mean, that's ah that's a simplified way to to just kind of cover the whole subject. We can wrap up the podcast. Done, there we go. But the Trinity is really not there to be something we should solve.
00:02:05
Speaker
It's just a truth we accept. God has said it um very clearly in His Word. I think people have to kind of do... spiritual gymnastics to get around what's the way the that's described in the Bible. sure Understanding it fully and what it means, that that's the part that kind of leaves a little bit of gray for us. One of those mysteries that we will just never know. yeah um Let's start with some statements about what we do know, okay?
Understanding the Trinity vs. Polytheism
00:02:30
Speaker
First of all, the Bible teaches there is only one God. That's right.
00:02:34
Speaker
So we're not talking about multiple gods here. We're not talking about polytheism, or in this case specifically tritheism. We're talking about the fact that there is really one God and this God is represented in three forms. That's right. But our human brain, again, we look at that and we say, okay, if he's Father, Son, Holy Spirit, which, is spoiler alert, there's the three there's a Trinity right there. There's your Trinity, yes.
00:02:54
Speaker
Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So you have Jesus, you have God the Father, and you have the Holy Spirit. Yes. Our human brain... automatically, naturally separates the three of those and says, okay, these are different gods, right? Whereas scripture tells us there's one in the whole, and then these are three aspects of God. Right, right.
00:03:15
Speaker
And you know you just said three aspects. That makes me think about this. Even somebody like me who feels like he has a pretty good grasp on what the Trinity is, I have to be careful in the language I use. Sure. Because it's easy to just kind of cross a line very gently into, and i mean, mis-teachings, I guess, heresies about this. incomplete descriptions of what God is, who God is, those kinds of things. So let's let's talk a little bit about the three parts. You've got God the Father. That's right. um Easily recognized. Most religions in the world have a place for a central creator God in their theology. Right.
00:03:53
Speaker
Right. um So for the Hebrew judi Judaism, excuse me, ah Judaism was the thing, monotheistic completely. We moved into Christianity after the New Covenant and after the arrival of Jesus, still monotheistic, just just God. He is. The second part of the Trinity is where we start to get into some little bit of hairiness there, okay? So the second aspect, I like the word you used, is Jesus.
00:04:22
Speaker
Is Jesus fully God? Yes. Yes. Okay. How do I know? Why do you know that? I know because of Scripture. And so I'm going to read something, and it should clear this up right now. ah In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
00:04:38
Speaker
Okay, so um you're like, okay, then who is the Word? Well, if you skip down to verse 14, or John 1, that was John 1, 1, is in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Verse 14 said, the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we have seen the glory of the one and only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. And so,
00:05:00
Speaker
the Word was God, the Word became flesh, the Word was Jesus. Jesus was there from the beginning. And so, um Scripture directly telling us that the Word was Jesus, the Word was God, and the Word came here in flesh. yeah And so, there's no real way to reason your way around those two statements right there in those verses, other than Jesus is God,
00:05:26
Speaker
and He is God in the flesh. Okay, so let's go to one of the arguments against um Jesus is God because it's it's what I keep hearing a lot lately especially if you get on ah some of these YouTube channels where there's debates and stuff like that and it seems particularly to come from the Islamic faith, but there are others who are involved who say Jesus never claimed to be God, right? um Yes, he did. Okay. I and the Father am one. Thank you. Right? we can't make any sense. It's another scripture. We're looking at scripture to prove these arguments. Right. right I can't, like I said, I can't reason as as a man and convince you of anything. and My brain can't wrap around that trifecta as one. but Scripture can tell us that it is. And so in this verse we see that um Jesus was the Word and He became flesh and He was God. And then we have Him proclaiming, am the Father in one. Why do you think there was so much disruption around Jesus or people calling Him blasphemous? It's because He was claiming to be God and the Jews were like, no. Yes. No.
00:06:31
Speaker
Yes. And then you get into the book of John itself, seven different times He uses I Am statements. That's right. They're the seven I Am statements. where he said, I'm the bread of life, I'm the living water, those kinds of things.
00:06:42
Speaker
For us, those are really important statements, but for the Jewish people, man, that was him saying, and i am God. Yes, because the reason being is when you look back at like the burning bush with Moses, um God proclaimed, I am. yep right And so that was their idea of who God was, is I am. And so when Jesus came to earth and said,
00:07:01
Speaker
I am. Those words came out of his mouth. They hated it yeah because he was proclaiming that he was God. yeah I am the door. I am the bread of life. I'm the light of the world. He was claiming lordship, which was crazy yeah to them. you know And not only did he claim it verbally, he also accepted worship from people who came and worshipped him, which he would have not allowed unless he...
00:07:22
Speaker
Indeed, dc so d right did see himself as God. yeah So yeah, Jesus is fully God. Now let's talk about the Holy Spirit.
Role and Connection of the Holy Spirit
00:07:30
Speaker
We're going to have a different session out completely on the Holy Spirit coming up following this later. But let's talk about this. Many people think of him as merely a force. Growing up as a kid,
00:07:42
Speaker
My parents people in our church have always referred to him more as the Holy Ghost which is kind of seemed like a very weird concept So when we started talking about him as the Holy Spirit it kind of made him a little more personal for me ah Is the Holy Spirit God?
00:07:56
Speaker
Yes. How do we know that scripture? Okay, I don't know any Acts chapter five verse three and four you got actually after five verse three and four I'm gonna look at something myself sure 3 and 4? Yep. It says, then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart and that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept yourself from the money and received from the land?
00:08:19
Speaker
Didn't it belong to you before it was sold, and after it was sold wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think that doing such thing you have not lied to men, but to God? So it identifies the Holy Spirit, and then it refers to Him as God. Yes, same person. And 2 Corinthians 3.17, Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. So the Lord is the Spirit. it equates the two of them being the same. We're going to talk about this greater detail. The Holy Spirit plays a key role, especially for New Testament believers where we are today. does a whole lot of things for us, but He is also indeed God. So you've got God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
00:09:00
Speaker
Now, three people are distinct person. So I think God is so... Gracious and loving. Yeah. um Because our human our human mind, you said you said that people naturally want to accept that there's a God or a creator, right? to have To have an authority figure, to have a structure to this world, people are inclined to lean towards that.
00:09:25
Speaker
People also need something to see or put their hands on to understand that. And then also people want to be comforted knowing that someone is with them. And God saw all fit to put himself in the position to be all three. He's God the Father, the Creator, the all-knowing, the big guy in the sky, whatever people want to refer to him as. And then there's this personal side of having Jesus that walked this earth, that experienced the humanity of the side of things.
00:09:53
Speaker
um And then he saw so fit to give us someone that could dwell inside us. yeah All him, all right all god but different aspects of God that we can tangibly put our hands on Jesus, right? and We see the stories of him in history, the authority of God the Father who has created and and
Significance of the Trinity in Salvation History
00:10:13
Speaker
done all things, and then this Holy Spirit that dwells within us yep and give us the capability to have that relationship with him.
00:10:21
Speaker
I'm going to give you some good questions in a minute because your handling is too easy. I'm to to go to something. Oh, mercy. um So Matthew 28, 19 says this, and it's a filmment familiar passage. We've actually read it here before on the podcast.
00:10:33
Speaker
He says, go therefore, this is Jesus talking, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Not the names of the Father, but in the name of, indicating that they are one person. Oh, that's nice. I like that. Not three different people. I like that. um So let's talk about some misconceptions. And this is where you kind of get into this...
00:10:58
Speaker
This hairy conversation that theologians love to to create debate over. And again, i think you and I stand in the same place of just accept the truth that God has given us. We're not trying to figure it all out. okay There is the misconception of what's called modalism.
00:11:13
Speaker
mo ever heard that to describe that word i've heard yeah yeah but yeah modalism is this idea that he is in three different modes well meaning people and I have used this illustration before that an illustration of the the trinity is water comes in three forms solid, liquid, gas yeah but those are that's water in three different forms that's right um it it It kind of sets it up so that God is one person wearing three different masks. sure And that's that's not the case. um Of course, we've already ruled out tritheism because we established that God is one God. There is no other God. There is not ah a backup God, a junior God, anything like that. um Partialism.
00:11:54
Speaker
Partialism is another one of the misconceptions. This idea that The Holy Spirit is one-third of God. Jesus is one-third of God. They are all totally God. Again, mind-blowing, mind-numbing to try to think about. um So talk about this.
00:12:09
Speaker
um Look at that. I have a spider crawling across my screen. I saw it, but I wasn't going to say anything. Why does all this matter? Why does the Trinity matter? You kind of touched on it with your previous answer, but little deeper. it matter that we have Trinity? Why does it matter that we have the Trinity?
00:12:27
Speaker
That is a tough one. um I would say, referring to my last answer, um that the the way that God displays himself in order to be there for us in each situation, if if that makes sense. um If he was just just the Father, we wouldn't have that humanity aspect, the loving aspect, the hands-on aspect of Jesus. If he was just the Father, we wouldn't have that indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And so, um
00:13:01
Speaker
him as all three of them, ah provides the comfort, provides the, honestly, the facts, like to have the historical account of Jesus walking on the earth. yeah um So many of those different ah truths give me comfort, give me no excuse really because I could say oh he's just an off distant God but Jesus walked with us and the Holy Spirit's with us. Yeah. And so it really gives me no excuse other than just to believe what he he states about himself in Scripture. Right. So it's it's a very important concept in the way that salvation is played out for us as humans because
00:13:42
Speaker
From the very beginning of time, God's had a plan on how to redeem us. And it's been a plan he put into action almost from the very beginning in Genesis 3.15 when he addressed Adam and said, hey, you're going to have a seed that's going to descend from you. And he's going to put it in yeah to what Satan has done. yep So that was literally the first covenant promise there is in the Bible. That's when God began to reveal this plan he set into motion. The arrival of Jesus, he's the one that accomplished the plan. that's right It's his death and resurrection that opens the door to heaven for us. And so we have God who ah you know came up with the plan. We have Jesus that accomplished the plan. And then the Holy Spirit, as you said a minute ago, in every single one of us applies the plan of redemption to our heart. He makes salvation possible in us as it's lived out, carried out, gifting of the spirits, those kinds of things. So um I think probably we have done enough to muddy the waters a little bit for everybody. Hopefully brought up some great conversation pieces here. um It's a good thing to pray about. It's a good thing to read about. There are some good works out there by a lot of people that I would caution you and to be real careful who you read about it because you can be steered into some stuff. But I'll just come back to this this reality that we have been given truth in God's Word, and just like many other parts of the Bible, we want to always be able to understand it That's right.
00:15:06
Speaker
But knowing we can love and trust the God who has put all this into place, yeah it it should be enough. that i would say i would say take your questions and your doubts and then compare it with Scripture. yeah And so my brain goes, okay, well, if Jesus...
00:15:21
Speaker
responded to the Father's authority while he was here on earth, then God the Father has way more authority than Jesus and he had to listen to what he said. Right? Your brain says that. But if I go back to scripture and it says, i am the Father and one, and the Word was God and the Word was with God, that tells me they're the says, you've seen me, you've seen the Father. That's right. But Jesus as ah as a human, as God and man being here on earth, gave us the example of how we humans are supposed to respond to the Father. yeah And so he would consult him.
00:15:51
Speaker
He would pray. He would ask his will. um And yet he is himself, right? And so, um so gracious that he would see fit to do it in this way, um to meet needs that we have as human beings. Yeah.
00:16:05
Speaker
And very clearly demonstrated throughout Jesus' life by his words and his actions, Jesus willingly submitted himself to his Father's authority. That's right. So, I'm guessing you probably have questions, not you specifically. I do. But anybody who's listening has questions about this. I encourage you...
00:16:24
Speaker
Grab your pastor, um whether it's here at our church, we'd love to talk with you
Encouragement for Further Exploration
00:16:28
Speaker
more about it. Grab your pastor at your church. it's If it's not something he wants to talk about, it it may be something he needs to spend some time doing some studying on. ah Theologians for centuries have have debated how this unfolds and all that, but I think it's enough to know that God has a plan, and that plan is being actively carried out through, at this point, the Holy Spirit and His presence in the believer, as we walk through these days what I believe are the last days sort of of time so ah good subject not always able to answer all the questions about it not able to define it or put it in a box but if God has always existed in perfect relationship with himself being a trinitarian nature
00:17:13
Speaker
That says a lot about why He created us for relationships and stuff. That's right. Why we should desire those and seek those out and even benefit from those. That's right. Awesome. All right. Well, come back join us next week. We're going to jump into this subject of the Holy Spirit. We're going to talk more about... who he is, what he does, what he accomplished for us, that he is not a ghost. He's not an it. So we're we're going to talk about all those things. But in the meantime, we hope you'll join us. If you're here in town locally, we'd love to have you join us at 8, 9, 30, and 11. And next week, come back and join us week by week as we do our our podcast here.
00:17:49
Speaker
Bye.