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Sylvain Berneron - The Man Behind The Most Anticipated Watch Of The Year
988 Plays5 months ago
Sylvain Berneron is my guest today and I am not sure there is a watch or a brand that has received this much attention in a long time, and it’s well deserved. A designer at heart, Sylvian worked for brands like BMW & Porsche before starting his own firm, and eventually becoming the Chief Product Officer at Breitling. But as a creative, Sylvain was taught by his mother, an artist herself, to turn a constraint or restriction into an opportunity, and that’s exactly what he did with the Mirage watch. He has designed every single component of the watch and spared no expense, all the way down to the solid gold spring bars. Every supplier tried to talk him out of this endeavor, but he persevered into what is one of the most sought after and recognized independent watch brands existing today. His creativity and thoughtfulness has landed the brand with allocated orders all the way through 2028. We chat about the perfect timing of his avant garde design with the current market demands, what it’s like to be on the other side of the collecting market, and the future plans of Berneron to which we got some sneak peaks. To be honest, there's not a person in this hobby and trade that deserves it more. So without further adieu, this is Sylvain Berneron, for Collectors Gene Radio.
Berneron's Website - https://www.berneron.ch/
Berneron's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/berneron/?hl=en
On The Dash Interview - http://www.onthedash.com/berneron-mirage-interview/
Recommended
Transcript
Massive Investment in New Watch Movement
00:00:00
Speaker
Indeed, developing a movement like this is around 600,000-700,000 strength of investment, which I had to commit to two years prior, so early 2022, when I had effectively zero clients. And this is where it gets very scary.
Discovering the Collector's Gene
00:00:20
Speaker
What's going on everybody and welcome to collector's gene radio. This is all about diving into the nuances of collecting and ultimately finding out whether or not our guests have what we like to call the collector's gene. If you have the time, please subscribe and leave a review. It truly helps. Thanks a bunch for listening and please enjoy today's guest on collector's gene radio.
Sylvan Berneron Joins Brightland
00:00:44
Speaker
Sylvan Berneron is my guest today and I'm not sure there's a watch or brand that has received this much attention in a long time and it's well deserved. A designer at heart, Sylvan worked for brands like BMW and Porsche before starting his own firm and eventually becoming the chief product officer at Brightland.
00:01:00
Speaker
But as a creative sylvan was taught by his mother and artist herself to turn a constraint or restriction into an opportunity and that's exactly what he did with the mirage watch.
Designing the Mirage Watch
00:01:10
Speaker
He is designed every single component of the watch and spared no expense all the way down to the solid gold spring bars. Every supplier tried to talk him out of this endeavor but he persevered into what is one of the most sought after and recognize independent watch brands existing today.
00:01:25
Speaker
His creativity and thoughtfulness has landed the brand with allocated orders all the way through 2028. We chatted about the perfect timing of his avant-garde design with the current market demands, what it's like to be on the other side of the collecting market, and the future plans of Burneron, to which we got some sneak peeks. To be honest, there's not a single person in this hobby and trade that deserves it more. So without further ado, this is Sylvain Burneron for Collector's Gene Radio.
00:01:52
Speaker
Sylvain Berneron, thank you so much for coming on Collector's Dream Radio today. I'm really thrilled to have you on here. Hi, come on. Thank you very much for having me. I was just saying previous to this recording that I listened to 80% of your content, more recently the episode with Nadine, with Eric. So it's a real, real pleasure for me to be on with you today. Ah, too kind. Well, now everyone gets to hear you chat with me, so I'm excited for that.
00:02:20
Speaker
What an amazing gear it's been for you, yeah? Yes, very, very intense. So as you know, I've been working for Brightling for five years as a chief product officer. I've progressively decreased my participation at Brightling, coming down from 100%, then to 80%, and then to 50% over the course of the past three years.
00:02:44
Speaker
And twenty twenty four is my transition year where I'm currently dedicating a hundred percent of my time on my new project, which is the brand that carries my name feels weird to say that, but that's really.
00:03:00
Speaker
Amazing. I'm not sure there's a watch and a brand that has folks more at the edge of their seat right now than you do I mean This is always the dream for anyone launching a new company whether it's a watch or a brand Whatever it may be to to just get the respect and the notoriety that you've received and I know that's not always easy Were you nervous to leave Breitling and do this?
00:03:22
Speaker
Yes, yes, of course, extremely nervous. It's probably also why I didn't have the courage to pull the plug on my previous job three years ago, because frankly, I was not only well paid, but very well treated. I had the team of almost 60 people to work with and the endless resources to work with. So of course, you second guess or triple guess before
00:03:51
Speaker
Putting that behind you to venturing into what into doing a gold dent watch because this is frankly what it is and Geneva which is in wonder is a few people ask me the question they were like oh you're the guy who was chief product officer at Breitlingen and left to do your own thing right and I get all excited going yeah yeah it's me and they go why
00:04:16
Speaker
Because, and some friends told me, some friends I grew up with, tell me, look, you were safe. Why did you even bother to do this? Do you realize the level of risk involved and the job you had before was not something that you can find easily?
00:04:32
Speaker
But nonetheless, my mother was a painter. She told me the love of art and the education of fine arts. It has been a blessing for my studies because it helped me to find a job that I love. And sometimes it's also a curse because I just have to do these things. And if I didn't do this project, I would have kept dreaming or complaining about it for the rest of my life.
00:05:01
Speaker
Absolutely. And you started out your career as a designer for BMW, and then you eventually launched your own company working with some of the biggest brands in the world. At what point do you leave your company to work in the watch industry?
00:05:15
Speaker
So I worked for six years in the German car industry for BMW, for Porsche. I decided to go back to Paris to open my own design studio simply because I never got along very well with the German culture. I mean, I loved my job at BMW, no question, but it never felt like home, the country, the food, the weather, the language, all of that. So after six years, when,
00:05:42
Speaker
when you still go, ah, now I'm arrived at home. When you go a weekend in Paris, I realized something was wrong. So I decided to take a leap of faith and open my own little design studio in Paris, where I kept working for big automotive brands, motorcycle brands as well, like Ducati and Enver Gusta. And this is when I had the first freelance missions for the Richemont Group. So namely IWC, Bonne Mercier,
00:06:09
Speaker
And I did, so at the beginning I was freelancing. For them, I did one, two, three projects. And eventually I transitioned into a full-time position for Richemont in Merin at the Compus de la Rotorologé, where I worked five years, always worked for George, and when he left George Kern, and when he left Richemont to take on the leadership at Breitling,
00:06:34
Speaker
I followed him to basically build the product department from the ground up because Breitling didn't have these resources internally yet. Were you always into watches or was it more of a design and engineering feat that excited you?
00:06:50
Speaker
He caught me back because as a kid, my father and his brothers are watch guys, but not to the level that I'm doing now. They like watches, so my father had Rolex Submariner Preceramic, my uncle had Omega Speedmaster.
00:07:11
Speaker
So I grew up being surrounded with the usual suspects, let's say, and I was playing with them as a kid, but I was also riding motorcycles. So when you're 12 years old, you're more attracted to the thrill of speed rather than watches, because obviously they would not give me one. I was too young, so I could get to play with it sometimes, but I would not get to wear one.
00:07:36
Speaker
And a watch is a very technical object, just like a car or a motorcycle. So once you have wrapped your brain around how to make technical objects, except the scale, actually a car and a watch require the same sort of working protocol in order to be made.
00:07:59
Speaker
And the car industry felt very restricted, creatively speaking. I mean, I jumped in the car industry, dreaming to make testarosas and, you know, amazing sculptural moving objects.
00:08:13
Speaker
I got in this industry by 2008-09. This is when I started in BMW and already back then you had all the regulations for aerodynamics, safety, pollution, etc. Right, you're a little bit restricted in that industry. Heavily restricted. I drew interiors of cars where I had 10 millimeters to place a surface.
00:08:39
Speaker
I mean I understand these are objects that have to keep people alive so of course safety has to go before design. When the watch industry on the other hand did the opposite route so the chaos became more and more safer with time which means this restricted creativity
00:09:01
Speaker
And on the other side, the watches became less and less useful because they are no longer tools that we need to use on our daily life, which means they get much closer to jewelry as time progresses. And this is where we as designers get all the freedom to play, and which is where the mirage all of a sudden is a project that can happen because we no longer need precise timekeeping in order to own a watch.
00:09:30
Speaker
So what was the inspiration to launch your own brand and the Mirage watch? Obviously you have this itch to create something on your own and something that is so different from what you're working on at Brightly. Yeah, well, to create something on my own is the main problem. I don't struggle for my lack of ideas. If you would give me endless resources, I could come up with a different thing every week. That's not the problem.
00:10:00
Speaker
I didn't mean to start my own brand to start with, so it was never a wish that I had. The collectors heavily insisted on me putting my name on the dial during the development of the mirage when I was feeling much more comfortable to hide behind another
00:10:20
Speaker
label or name because as a designer it's much more comfortable. Once you put your family name on the dial, I mean, I come from a military family, this is not something that has to be taken lightly, let's say.
00:10:37
Speaker
But the starting point of the Mirage is me as a collector, I collect two types of pieces. On one hand, very traditional round pieces like Lange 1815, Patek 96, Breguet Classic. I really like this kind of pieces because you have the watchmaking substance, the heritage. These are the pieces that defined the 20th century of watchmaking.
00:11:05
Speaker
And I love them for that, classic proportion, good finishing, strong chronometry. But from a styling perspective, I find them harder and harder to wear on a daily basis. For example, you take a yellow gold Breguet classic. Unless you're fully suited with style and even hats or something, it gets harder to wear every day.
00:11:29
Speaker
And on the other side, I also love the shape watches, especially the work of Rupert Emerson Cartier or the work of Gilbert Albert Patek and under his own name later on.
00:11:41
Speaker
Because these guys really brought a lot of emotions, a lot of character in their work. And these pieces, I mean, when you rock a shape, Gilbert Albert case, with the Batec movement inside, you really send a message to the world of somebody who owns these feelings and knows who he is, which I like very much.
00:12:04
Speaker
without being too offensive you know displaying massive wells it's not really my thing so i find shape pieces a great alternative in order to display character without being too aggressive with others but as you as you know these shape pieces are often mocked in collector circles being called fashion watches and that comes the fact that
00:12:28
Speaker
in its faces. They have very little watchmaking substance. Most of the time they use GLC eboche, basic movements. So you have little power reserves, no finishing, close case back, because the technical aspect has been heavily compromised by the styling exercise.
00:12:47
Speaker
Right but i don't think your timing could have been any better because we are seeing this acceptance of these odd k shaped watches being so accepted in the market you know we have all these brands that are are surfacing with all their vintage pieces that have all these avant-garde k shapes that are are so sought after now from so many collectors.
00:13:07
Speaker
Yes, I mean, sometimes you get to have a bit of luck. I took all the risk I could on my end and I started this project in 2021, so three years.
00:13:20
Speaker
before. Back then developing a 38 millimeter was considered a small watch where the bulk of the market was still doing 40, 42 ish. But yes, I think I just followed my guess really and tried to build something that would please me first and foremost.
00:13:42
Speaker
And the mirage is basically trying to make a bridge between the round traditional pieces that I described before and the shade pieces. Absolutely. It is a great mix. Yes, and I really try to gab that bridge. And the interesting thing about the mirage is, let's imagine you haven't seen the watch.
00:14:01
Speaker
And I described it to you in an elevator pitch. I could tell you, oh, Cameron, I've made a manual wind movement. Dress watch, time only, with a small second counter at six o'clock. It's a gold case on the laser strap. All these things are true about the Mirage.
00:14:20
Speaker
So you could very well see Patek 96 in your head. And so that goes to show that the mirage is heavily rotated into traditional watchmaking by its architecture. And once you see the product, it's all of a sudden a completely new twist on the exercise.
00:14:39
Speaker
The comparison would be trying to open a burger restaurant in new york and you try to do your own variation of the cheeseburger source. How hard was it for you to find the right suppliers and partners for you you know you obviously come from from.
00:14:59
Speaker
being a head creative at a big brand. So you have a lot of connections already in the industry, but you've taken some pretty daring leaps that most brands don't do. So I'd have to imagine it probably be pretty difficult to find the right suppliers.
00:15:11
Speaker
Well, this was the biggest challenge I had to face. Because as you said, I was thinking that my track record in the industry would open me a lot of doors easily, to be honest. I thought, OK, I got the legal permission from George to do this. I have the savings that it took me 15 years to acquire. And I have the time because I negotiated a part-time contract at Breitling. I saw these three pillars were the crucial ones
00:15:40
Speaker
to get the project off the ground. So once I had the authorization, the time, and the money in my pocket, I started to knock on door that suppliers and realized that once you escape the aura of a big brands, all of a sudden you nobody again. And frankly, most suppliers, and I understand them frankly, they have a limited amount of time and resources.
00:16:06
Speaker
And what they do is basically give you some sort of a job interview because they want to place their bets on you. They don't want to take the risk of not getting paid or investing time into a project that will die after a few months, which is why they are very skeptical about taking new clients.
00:16:26
Speaker
And even more so, when you do the kind of projects that I do. I mean, if you go and visit a decalter with somebody who makes wheels and pinions and stuff like this, these guys are rooted into the industrial landscape.
00:16:41
Speaker
their craft is into precision and heavy engineering and maintenance of machines that cost millions. So in the creative spectrum, they sit at the far end opposite of where I sit. So when they see me arriving, a guy alone
00:16:59
Speaker
asking for gold bent parts that will cost a fortune. Of course, they laugh at me. I have some anecdotes, for example. The spring bars, it's the ones that keeps coming back in my mind.
00:17:12
Speaker
I really wanted to work with one decalter in the Giroir who makes all the screws for AP on the bezel. These guys are the best. They work with precious metals. I mean, they can do these things. So I wanted to work with Christian. I sent him five emails, got no reply.
00:17:31
Speaker
I made three phone calls, could not reach him through his assistant. And finally, when I got him on the phone, I was like, look, yeah, I've been sending five emails. What's wrong? Why don't I even get an answer?
00:17:44
Speaker
And he told me, I thought he was a joke, because I'm like, what do you mean? I said, well, you email me with your private Gmail address. I don't know who you are. And you ask for white gold spring bars. So in my book, this is an absolute joke, which is why I didn't reply. But if you mean it, please drive. Let's meet and let's see. And I had to convince him, because from his very pragmatic approach, he didn't see the point of making white gold spring bars.
00:18:13
Speaker
because he said nobody would see the difference, nobody would even see the part, and it's just me wasting my money and wasting his time. Every component of the watch is in gold, right? Yes. No, I will tell you what is not in gold. It's a full gold construction, so that means in the movement, the base plate, the bridges, the dial, the hands, the case, the crown, the buckle, the spring bars, and what is not in gold are the screws in the movement.
00:18:40
Speaker
The jewels, of course, all the winding train from the crown up to the barrel is in steel because I need to pass the torque through these gears and gold would not do it. And also the main train of wheels from the center wheel up to the balance wheel is in brass because I need to have them as light as possible to not drain the power of the movement.
00:19:04
Speaker
And you designed every single aspect of the movement and the whole watch, is that correct? Yes, yes, true. I made the point as myself that the whole point of the mirage, and this is why I called it the mirage, from an industrial perspective, it's a project that should not be done, frankly. I mean, if somebody listens at home and wants to venture into this kind of project,
00:19:27
Speaker
Place your bets carefully because I also discovered some stuff on the way that, thank God, I had committed otherwise it could really make you rethink about making this kind of projects. And from a creative perspective, I didn't want to sacrifice on the watchmaking substance. So I drew a movement from a blank piece of paper placing a large three days barrel
00:19:54
Speaker
Placing a large balance wheel to provide stable chronometry. And I wanted a direct small second like a pocket watch. And a thin movement. So these were my four fundamentals. And I didn't bother about the size or anything. I just placed the components. That's the size of the barrel I need. That's the size of the balance wheel I need.
00:20:17
Speaker
And when I realized that these components were taking a lot of space, the watch would have been 44, 45 millimeter in diameter if I had to place it in a round caliber, a Bosch, which was a big no-no for me. So this is when the idea of
00:20:35
Speaker
basically doing the contour around the wheels would be something very interesting creatively so the mirage is very different from another shape watch because if you take a reversal for example this has been drawn by the case has been drawn by the designer and then the poor watchmaker has to compose with the real estate left into the case to place his wheels.
00:20:58
Speaker
When the mirage is the strict opposite, you let the mechanics take the space it needs to be optimized, and then the designer has to compose with this, which to me is the main ethos of designs that I learned at school, which is form follows function.
00:21:16
Speaker
I think a subtle but really important detail is that the movement is the same shape as the case. And if I understand correctly, just to be able to get the tooling to produce that movement, it was more than half a million dollars.
00:21:31
Speaker
Yes, the complete development. Especially in the industry these days, for the past 10 years, we have this big trend of the in-house movement, which many collectors frankly don't know all the extent to make it very clear.
00:21:51
Speaker
I don't think any watch brand can claim they make a fully in-house movement, not even Rolex, for example, because you need to make the jewels, the screws, you need to melt the gold, you need to make the springs, you need to make the balance wheels, you need to make the anchors.
00:22:07
Speaker
And each component that I just described to be done properly would require a full life of work. So to my knowledge, I don't think Rolex makes their own jewels. For example, I might be wrong because they are quite secret, but to claim a fully in-house movement would require to internalize
00:22:28
Speaker
hundreds of people, gazillion millions of dollars of machinery and basically a knowledge of multiple centuries combined into a company in order to do this. So of course, I do not have this kind of resources, but nonetheless, I went down the rabbit hole and developed a fully bespoke movement. So in the Mirage caliber,
00:22:55
Speaker
The anchor wheel, so sorry, the escapement wheel, the anchor and the spring of the balance wheel are standard components. Same for the jewels and the screws, but all the other components, so I would say minimum 100 out of 135 components are entirely bespoke to this caliber, which for the size of my company is a tremendous endeavor to pursue because the level of risk involved
00:23:23
Speaker
the times that it takes to develop. So indeed, developing a movement like this is around 600, 700,000 strings of investment, which I had to commit to two years prior. So early 2022, when I had effectively zero clients, and this is where it gets very scary.
00:23:47
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, the movement is absolutely gorgeous. It's like mesmerizing to look at it. There's engine turned components. I mean, you look at it, it's really a work of art. So cheers to you on that because it's something, to be honest, like I've never seen before. It's one of those things where there's very few watches out there where the dial and the case are just as amazing to look at as the movement is. And I think you've achieved that.
00:24:12
Speaker
Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Going from you, it means a lot because I know you have a great time for this thing. So thank you very much. And so you mentioned, you know, this massive investment that you had to put in to get all of this started without any clients. And I mean, I'm curious to know now just to make everybody chuckle a little bit because this, you know, big investment you put in has really paid off. What year of allocation are you already into?
00:24:39
Speaker
When we arrived at Witches and Wonders a month ago, we had three years of order in the book. And now, so a month after, we are fully allocated for 2028. So that's six years of productions ahead. I have decided to not open the order book for 2029.
00:25:02
Speaker
Mainly for one reason is that I want to make sure that the price of gold remains stable in the future to avoid any bad blood of having to contact clients that pay their deposit again and say, look, the price of gold went through the roof. It's no longer 55, it's 65. Because this piece being a full gold construction, I am heavily relying on the price of gold in order to sustain the price that I'm doing.
00:25:30
Speaker
So the Mirage is offered at 55,000 Swiss francs, excluding VAT, which sounds very expensive. Frankly, it is twice as small than a pack at Calatrava. But for the ones who are indeed, I had two types of feedback, like the younger collectors that tell me, oh, I wish I could offer the one. It's so expensive. Why is it so expensive? And the guys that have been in the industry for decades, they asked me, how did you achieve that? And I said, well, there is not
00:25:59
Speaker
many options to do so. You cut on the margin, you go straight to collectors, and you don't overspend on communication and all the fancy things that usually surround a watch. So the mirage will be delivered in a minimalist packaging, a laser pouch. I do not have the resources to do massive events and rent big booths in all the different shows.
00:26:25
Speaker
But you don't need it. The press has come to you, which is very impressive. And it's for me the time to thank our industry because unlike in the car industry, we are very lucky because the watch industry is still a very small industry where 80% of the people involved are driven from passion, first and foremost.
00:26:50
Speaker
And so I received the help of many, many people just like you're doing now. I mean, I'm very grateful that you take some of your time to listen to me because nobody would have noticed. I mean, I don't have the resources to crack the Instagram algorithm or to, you know, pay for advertising me in Reno newspapers that would take millions to get the world aware of what I'm doing.
00:27:19
Speaker
Being that your production is capped at 24 watches a year, which is extremely impressive, what are your plans for growth with the Mirage and potentially new designs? So when I started this project, I asked myself to the question, why do you want to create a new watch brand in 2024?
00:27:39
Speaker
I felt that I needed to have a good god damn answer to this because the market is very saturated. We could also argue that the market is contracting these days.
00:27:52
Speaker
think that the post-COVID years are behind us, so it's no longer free growth for everybody. Thanks to my experience at BMW and at Breitling, I've learned a great deal about brand building and portfolio strategy, long-term vision.
00:28:09
Speaker
I think for a watch brand especially because this object last for decades if not a lifetime. It is very important to have a very long term vision so I do have a twelve year product plan in place for the brand with one launch per year.
00:28:30
Speaker
So the Mirage 38mm, which is the only piece visible at the moment, was the piece from year one. We're going to release a second piece in October this year and then one launch per year. So I actually took a second leap of faith because I've started the development of a second fully bespoke caliber in September last year.
00:28:53
Speaker
Amazing. And will that be in a, I don't know if you could share, but will it be in a similar case shape to the Mirage? Is it added complication?
Future Plans for Mirage Collection
00:29:02
Speaker
I think your audience should have the right to know because we are between collectors here. So from a strategy perspective, I think the Mirage
00:29:15
Speaker
I want to establish the Mirage as a model or one exotic project, but as a collection. So I feel the need to hammer on that nail once more. And I will do a Mirage 34 millimeter. So we're going to go one step further into sharp designs, because to me 34 millimeter is really the size where you can finally hit the sweet spot of unisex product. That has my name written all over it.
00:29:46
Speaker
And because 38 and I made that sacrifice if I had to choose I would have started with the 34
00:29:53
Speaker
But I wanted to mitigate the risk, so to speak, and started with the 38. Back in 2021, it felt like the more rational move. But I want to go even a step further and venture into 34, in a better case. So fully bespoke movement again, and I want to venture into stone dice as well. So that's pretty much the recipe of the launch for October 2024.
00:30:21
Speaker
We haven't opened the order book yet. Please do not send me more emails about this. To the people listening, we'll start communicating probably in July, August, and we'll reveal the piece in October this year. I think it's going to be a great watch.
00:30:41
Speaker
in line with the visions that I like about luxury, which are scene watches in precious metal, not offensive for the people around you and a form of luxuries that you can enjoy without disturbing others. Yeah, let's put it this way. If anyone emails you, they're going to get a response as fast as you got a response from the AP screw guy.
00:31:06
Speaker
This was a half time, the suppliers, I struggled with many of them to be honest. I'm sure, but I'm sure a lot of them are knocking on your door now. So it all comes from full circle.
Inspiring Independent Watchmakers
00:31:20
Speaker
In terms of the watch industry as a whole, I feel like you've set the stage for new independent watchmakers to come in and take risks like you have. Do you see the independent watchmaker portion of the watch industry evolving and is your brand going to help support some of these other small guys that want to get into this?
00:31:41
Speaker
Well, I might be a bit biased, of course, but if I had to place my money into bets right now, I would bet that the future of the watchmaking industry will be heavily contrasted. I think we'll have on one end the 10 top biggest brands that will swallow 90% of the volume and of the market.
00:32:01
Speaker
Because that's the power of the brand so you talk to clients who buy first and foremost are rolling exobriding in omega. And the product comes second. And the second part of the gross in the watch industry i think will come from the independence because regardless of the name.
00:32:20
Speaker
We are talking to clients who buy substance, who buy creativity, who buy craftsmanship and transparency and authenticity. And the worst place to be, in my opinion, is right in the middle, where you are either too expensive or too cheap or too cheap to have the substance in the product and too expensive to expand into a bigger market.
00:32:42
Speaker
So my advice, and I'm nobody to give advice, but my feeling at least is I would suggest to go very extreme. So either a large batch, for example, go like the two-door way, you make a large number of watches and you inject a lot of, it's basically a spec sheet that you buy where you tick all the boxes, I have the micro-adjustment, I have the super-aluminova, I have this, that, and you come up with a very competitive product.
00:33:12
Speaker
that will please a lot of customers. I think this is a very efficient approach. And if you want to go independent, I think the worst mistake to do is to be too calculated. Now, when I look back, sometimes I'm even scared of what I did myself because let's face it. It was pretty bold.
00:33:35
Speaker
Yeah, and this is why suppliers were trying to convince me not to do it, because they knew probably better than I realized how bad it could have become. Because if I didn't sell these watches,
00:33:50
Speaker
The shape movement is married to the shape case so I can't decouple them which means I can't sell movements on the side or I can't change the case either so there was no going back from this. It was either go big or go home.
00:34:06
Speaker
I would have never even imagined that I would have pre-allocated, so sell six years of production before we ship the first piece. We're going to ship the first piece to Rony Matvani, Laurent Pichotto, Aromont Tannary, the monster collectors in a month.
Collector Support and Passion
00:34:25
Speaker
which is also something I would have never believed. I was very touched to see esteemed collectors like these guys being receptive to this kind of work. We have amazing collectors. For example, even Jeff Stein took a piece. I'm not to say it, but I was like, Jeff, are you sure? You realize there's no pushers on this because Jeff is one of the world experts when it comes to chronographs. Right. You realize, Jeff, there's no racing lineage here.
00:34:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. And he saw the watch in reality in Geneva. He was very pleased with it. And this is where, to me, I'm very pleased because, frankly, having happy collectors is my main goal. This is why I do this. I don't do it to turn a buck, frankly, because if I was trying to make money, I would have done something very different.
00:35:16
Speaker
Well, the thing about all those collectors, Ronnie and Jeff and Arrow is that not only are they impressed with your work enough to say, here's my credit card, I want to order one of these, but they support it. They understand you and the vision and the brand and they want to be a part of it. And I think that that's also what makes a great collector is when you
00:35:38
Speaker
You can see everything and the whole umbrella that makes up a brand and why it's important and you can. You know not only shell out your dollars to support it but give yourself to post about it on social media to talk about it with others and to really be interested in the project as a whole.
00:35:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I can fully agree and I can give you examples of the sort of kindness that's sent towards me. I have many anecdotes, for example, Laurent Pichotot has the first piece in white gold, Mirage Prosyn Blue.
00:36:12
Speaker
And he always gave me advice to protect me from myself so i showed him that i had the dummy with the dial was made of paper two years ago. We met i showed him the pieces of what do you think i'd like to enter into this sort of project and it was like yep i mean let me know.
00:36:32
Speaker
Can you send me an invoice and I wire you the money? And I didn't even have a legal structure to do it yet. So I had to open a company.
00:36:42
Speaker
in order to take Laurent's deposit. And I felt so bad because I knew I had so much to achieve still, you know, to develop and to finalize. And he insisted on, he was like, look, I want to support you. Take my money, we'll help you. I trust you. It's fine. Rony keeps, you know, telling me I've been through extremely dark times.
00:37:07
Speaker
from an legal perspective and different aspects. Hone was there to support me, Bradley, Jeff as well. It's far more than just a commercial transaction. I would even say that the commercial transaction is marginal in the equation. Absolutely. You can't put a price on having guys like that support your business and what you're doing and support you as a designer through and through.
00:37:35
Speaker
And I think it's just the passion that speaks from both sides, to be honest. I'm, through my passion, willing to put myself in great danger, extreme danger, actually, because I'm, frankly, playing with personal bankruptcy. And these guys, out of passion, sort of keep me on track, you know, and warn me from potential dangers and stuff, and they are
00:38:02
Speaker
a lot more experience than I am, so they are able to really teach me how to avoid making some mistakes that I could not see or anticipate. And it's an immense pleasure to do this. Even the discussion we have now, I mean, I would pay for this. Because I'll go to sleep tonight and I'll be a richer person than I was when I woke up this morning.
00:38:30
Speaker
I love it. I would pay you too, and although I'm happy you didn't ask me to pay you to come on, I'm thrilled to say that I absolutely would as well. As a collector yourself, is it humbling to know that all these people are giving you deposits so that they can add your watch to their collection?
00:38:46
Speaker
Yes. As a watch enthusiast and as a designer, I am extremely touched. One of my teachers at school used to repeat me all the time, you know, the line between creativity and stupidity is very thin.
Balancing Creativity and Failure
00:39:04
Speaker
And he kept repeating me this all the time. Amazing. The line is very thin.
00:39:10
Speaker
And frankly, if you look at the mirage, we are walking right on that edge. Because if for some reason I would have taken any kind of shortcuts, it could have become a joke, this thing. And I think what counterbalances the very unserious look of the watch
00:39:31
Speaker
is the fact that it is backed with top-notch watchmaking substance in it. This is what counterbalances the almost creative insolence that you find into this because bending the hands and bending a sector dial is not the usual thing you're supposed to do if you want to build a serious watch brand.
00:39:52
Speaker
When you were designing the mirage, did you have a collector's mentality in mind or were you simply designing something you felt was interesting regardless of what a collector might perceive?
00:40:04
Speaker
From a design perspective, I try to bring all the little details that to me make the difference, to make a good piece, and these are the details that the collectors will get to discover during ownership. For example, the hands are bent, the numbers are bent, so it's not a watch that you will time
00:40:27
Speaker
the cooking of an egg to the second, for example. But, for example, the number 30 on the second counter is actually placed exactly to match the marking for the 30 minutes of the minute hand. So this sort of details is something that can't be seen from the pictures right now, but which I believe bring the ease of use while the period of ownership.
00:40:55
Speaker
Also the ergonomie was very important. One thing that I imposed on myself was to keep traditional dimensions for the strap. Because initially I wanted to go completely crazy with the strap and I remember that as a collector I sold some of my shaped pieces for that precise reason.
00:41:13
Speaker
because once the strap is gone after six months and you have to wait eight months to replace it because you have one of these shape pieces that I won't name but that don't have standard straps it's really a pain to get them done and the Mirage has an extremely traditional 20 millimeter lug width at the case and 16 at the buckle which is the most traditional strap architecture you can find and for me it's important
00:41:40
Speaker
to not force the collector to get back to me to get a strap. So I want to make sure these guys can have fun. As a collector myself, every collector has his own preferences when it comes to strap, either the length or the texture of the feel. And I wanted to make sure that this part of the watch was extremely free. As a collector, when you can change the straps easily on the watch, it also helps you to adopt the product much deeper under your skin, sort of.
00:42:10
Speaker
How about the packaging for the mirage watch i don't think we've seen too many photos if any yet of what the packaging look like for when the watches get delivered.
00:42:18
Speaker
Yes, so the last thing I wanted was to do a huge, precious wood box. And no one wants to store them anymore. Yes, precisely. So I tried to go very minimalist. So I will have a laser pouch, which basically folds in two, where you can put the watch and then throw that travel pouch into your suitcase, or it would even slide into a pocket of your jacket, for example.
00:42:48
Speaker
So I try to be very minimalist. I used good laser quality traditional cuts, you know with the lacquered We call it the tranche in français. It's the side where you cut the laser you put the lacquer so it's a Minimalist, but yet straight to the point Good quality laser sort of packaging and I also have a document holder
00:43:13
Speaker
built in the same quality to put the certificate, the notice, the guarantee, the final invoice, all these things. And where the trick is, is that the color of this packaging is actually linked to the color of the piece you took. So if you took it with Blue, you'll have the travel pouch and the document holder in the same laser color as your strap and vice versa for the Sienna.
00:43:40
Speaker
thoughtful, elegant, simple. It's what every brand needs to take note on. And no logo. That also was big for me. If you look at the mirage, you'll find three logos on the entire product, one on the dial, one on the strap, and a small B on the movement.
00:43:58
Speaker
Because as a collector myself, I hate being some sort of a sandwich guy, you know, like where you have 15 logos on a watch. So even in the packaging, if you look from the outside, you won't see any logo, neither on the box, neither document holder. It's only when you open it that it's written on the inside. Fantastic.
00:44:19
Speaker
You spent a lot of time at Brightling designing, obviously a lot of watches, and your brand is so opposite of what Brightling has done and what you've produced there. Was there anything that you took away from your time there that translates into the Mirage watch and your brand that is maybe not necessarily something visible to the naked eye, but something that's a little bit of a nod to your previous experience?
00:44:45
Speaker
Yes, yes, of course. So from a creative perspective, it is true that the bare normal pieces and the bridling pieces are on the strict opposite of the spectrum. I, as a designer,
00:44:57
Speaker
made sure that I never poured my own taste into Breitling pieces because this was not my role. I think it's a big mistake. I tried to teach this to the design teams that I had in charge because it's very often a mistake that young designers do. You get to teach how to draw, you get to see a lot of different websites and blogs.
00:45:22
Speaker
any young designers of things that they own good taste and most of them have sharp taste but it doesn't mean you should apply that on a brand new work for so i'm brightening my mind. Yes go was to respect the brand first and foremost it's not about pleasing silver on the wall because when i will leave brightening.
00:45:42
Speaker
And effectively, I did. It is important that the work that I did is in line with where the brand was coming from and where it will go further. I should not disrupt that legacy. But through the course of my career, I started with four people at Breitling in 2019, mid-2018. And when I left three months ago, I had almost 60 people, so I've learned
00:46:10
Speaker
a lot about scaling a team, management, finances, how to manage a project, make sure we hit the deadlines, all the human aspect behind it. And you can have all the discipline you want in life if you don't. If you're not able to surround yourself and to give a common vision to a small group of people, you'll never get anything done, frankly. Amazing.
00:46:36
Speaker
And that's something that George told me more than anything else, because I try to be critic with myself. When you spend so much time drawing, you tend to impose your ideas on others.
00:46:53
Speaker
And this is actually not the most productive way of doing it. It's much easier to spend more time explaining what you did, why you think it's good, in order to take people on the journey with you. And that I've learned in between. I'm able to do it now. I've hired two people for Bernard Roux, respectively Fabien, who is our head of technical office and operations. And Rafael will join us in September as head of brand communication.
00:47:22
Speaker
I shared my vision where i want to go very enthusiastic we have great projects to work on for the future i'll try my best to make sure the noise. Only created but also very cool place to work at.
00:47:38
Speaker
I wanted to ask you one last question before we wrap it up with the collector's dream rundown. You mentioned earlier and in your article with Jess Stein from On the Dash that you lost your mother at a young age, and I resonate with that. And she was always your source of inspiration and really your biggest advocate for being artistic and confident.
00:47:59
Speaker
reflecting on your journey as an artist and a watchmaker, how do you think your mother would perceive your accomplishments and the boundaries that you've pushed to launch the Mirage? So it's an interesting question. First, I should say that I'm probably silly enough to make this kind of projects, especially because I lost my mother from one day to another when I was 17. And that taught me one thing, is that we have only one shot in life. And it can stop for everybody.
00:48:29
Speaker
you know, from one day to another. So I'm not saying we should be kamikaze and drink and smoke and, you know, not care like if there was no tomorrow. But I still feel that we live in a world where we should not only do the things we should do, we should also make sure we keep a little bit of time to do the things that we want to do in life. And it is extremely hard, extremely hard. I was a bold member at Brightling, I mean,
00:48:57
Speaker
You receive 150 emails a day. You have meetings 12 hours a day. How are you supposed to find the energy to do your little side project? So she, I mean, through the dramatic event, I learned that lesson from an artistic perspective. She would tell me Bravo. And from a mother perspective, she would, it's funny because she maybe would have been the ones that would have tried to stop me from doing this from, from a, from a mother to son perspective.
00:49:27
Speaker
because she would not want me to be hurt sort of it from an artistic perspective i think she i hope she would be happy i would say absolutely and at least i'm happy that's also something i should say because i
00:49:42
Speaker
I cannot control the outcome. The only thing I can do is really an act of devotion. I tried my hardest, tried my best, worked three years in a vacuum. I present the work. I say, this is what I did. This is why I think it's good. And I leave it to the world to decide if they like it or not, because I can't control that.
00:50:04
Speaker
And I really grow some sick skin in the process because I was very scared to show this to the world because let's not forget that what community is sometimes extremely rude, very rude. I'm sometimes, you know, we are the first ones to complain like, oh, yet another died variation. I've seen this discussion.
00:50:26
Speaker
thousand times on forums people complain are what lazy brands they just give us a new dial color and they call it a day why do we pay so much and when somebody tries something different you get millions of vomiting emojis and what is what is this and blah and blah so I think from a community perspective if we as customers and collectors want brands to be more courageous and brave
00:50:56
Speaker
We should walk the talk and welcome any creative endeavor of any kind we should upload somebody you took the risk to make something new if you like it or not is another decision but we should not you know burn these guys into the grave for trying something new.
00:51:12
Speaker
I love it. So then let's wrap it up here with the collector's dream rundown. You can, as you know, answer these questions based on any of the things that you collect, whether it's watches, whether it's designing the Mirage watch and your future designs. I know some of these questions may ask you to, uh, to look back a little bit. And I know you're, you're a very progressive and innovative person. So I know that some of these may be a bit tricky, but let's give it a shot. Yeah, sure. What's the one that got away?
00:51:41
Speaker
The ones that go away, it's two actually. My cousin had the great idea to sell the Speedmaster that I told you about that my uncle had. And when I realized, well, do you still have the watch from Jean-Pierre? No, I sold it in my house. Okay. And then the second.
00:51:56
Speaker
is the Rolex Submariner from my dad, getting older, I'm getting more sentimental, so I've been starting to require that watch, so to speak, a couple of years ago, and my dad says that he hasn't sold it, but he doesn't know where it is at the moment. So it's gotten away somewhere in the house. Yeah, yeah, I have it, it lives 600 kilometers away from me, still in Paris, so I have to dig for that piece at some point, but at the minute, it still got away from me.
00:52:26
Speaker
How about the on deck circle so what's next for you in collecting or maybe next in the brand. Before i started the brand i had a decent collection of twenty five pieces i had to send twenty of them twenty one actually of them in order to get the cash to found the project some of the cash that i needed.
00:52:49
Speaker
So as a collector, if the Bernoulli project goes well, I still have three years of very dangerous years in terms of cash management for the company. But by 2028, if I do my job well and the team helps me to do that, I'll be able to start acquiring more pieces. And I'm dreaming about
00:53:16
Speaker
Ah, the usual suspects. So that's shade pieces, smaller sizes, stone dials. I'd like to go into this heavily engraved metal bracelets. I think metal bracelets properly made like with the jewellery approach will have their moment. I'd love to venture into these but I don't have the cash to do so. I mean these are extremely cash intensive.
00:53:41
Speaker
But I'll get there. So yes, I will have a reboot of my collection in 2028, finger crossed if I get this company off the ground in a safe way.
00:53:54
Speaker
On a side note, do you wear the yellow gold or the white gold mirage more often? Well, you'd be surprised to hear this. I didn't take a piece for myself. The two pieces that you see online are triple zeros. They are property of the company. So these pieces are used for collectors meetings. They are actually consigned for various photo shoots and YouTube reviews that will come in the near future.
00:54:21
Speaker
So I don't get to wear these pieces, otherwise the video asked and the photographer said, kill me. If you wear the watch, you scratch it and if you scratch it, then you can't film it anymore. So these are our company assets. I kept initially the number 12 for myself. So that would be the last piece of the first year. And this week I decided to give my slots to a collector dear to my heart.
00:54:49
Speaker
which is effectively Nadine that you know and she had a 2026 piece and I asked her if she wanted to swap with me because having a young lady firing with talent
00:55:05
Speaker
rocking a mirage is to me the most correct and joyful expression of the project I'm doing. This is modern watchmaking due to the state of the art. So I asked her if she wanted to swap with me. So my mirage will be a Sienna. It will be number 47 and it will arrive in 2026, unfortunately.
00:55:27
Speaker
Well, that's amazing and a very kind gesture. And what I love about the relationship between you and her is that she did the same thing with her jewelry. She had a great job at Hermes, wanted to do something on her own, and every single supplier and jeweler tried to talk her out of it. And she went ahead and she did it and has gotten the same type of notoriety that you've gotten. So I love the duo there.
00:55:56
Speaker
Yeah, and we share the same vibe. I mean, when we speak over the phone, we bounce ideas very quickly and we have fingers on the same pulse, so to speak, which is creatively speaking, extremely rich and a pleasure for me. And for example, her and I would have never met if we didn't pursue the kind of projects that we did. And this is also what is very beautiful.
00:56:22
Speaker
Absolutely. I love it. How about the unobtainable? So this is one that's just too expensive in a museum or a private collection.
00:56:31
Speaker
I'm a quite pragmatic guy, so I try not to shoot for stuff that I could never get. If you would give me endless resources, I would probably do a morning of private shopping in the Patek Museum. Yeah, you and I both. Yeah, I think as I would be. Do you imagine like you and I close Patek Museum for hours, we get to take as many watches as we can carry with us. Oh my gosh, I wouldn't know where to start.
00:56:58
Speaker
That would be amazing. But one day, I mean, I'll have to buy your house first so that my dad can sleep in peace at some point. But if one day I have enough money, for example, 15, 18, 5,000 for
00:57:21
Speaker
A complicated bad tech would be something that would rock my boat. I think these pieces will cost half a million, if not more, by the time I can gather the money. But one day, if I can.
00:57:42
Speaker
I come from a military family, so I got my first Swiss Army knife from my father when I was 12 years old. He gave me maybe one knife every two years or something, so I have a small collection of knives.
00:57:57
Speaker
which have their own little geeky marks and stuff, you know, like almost you have in watches. So the older ones had this Arbalet, so it's this bow, which was the Swiss level quality, but I mean, I could last an hour on this. And also the cars, I mean, vintage cars is also, I'm a petrolhead as well. I've been riding bikes or collecting motorcycles and cars, but I would need a football field to please myself.
00:58:27
Speaker
How about the goat who do you look up to in the collective world or who do you think is a great collector.
00:58:33
Speaker
I'll give a few names because one would not do it. To me, my shortlist is Laurent Pichotto, Ronnie Madvani, Auro Montanari, Fred Mandelbaum. I spent five years working with him and barking. He's fantastic. It's knowledge level 99 and an empathy level 999, which to me is the most bankable combination of skills that you can dream of as a human being.
00:59:03
Speaker
watch is meaningless. But meeting people like these guys, I would also mention Jeff Stein. Jeff sits with me hours on the phone to try to understand why I did it and asking the sharpest questions ever. It's a real joy to me. All these gentlemen are true examples of
00:59:26
Speaker
A gentleman attitude, strong knowledge they are willing to share. They won't try to squeeze you in a corner. If you screw up, they will forgive you. I worked five years with Fred. I can't tell you how many times I screwed up. Many times. And we still love each other. When I see the guy we hug in Geneva, I consider him a great friend. And that's what life is about. So I look at them as really true figures of
00:59:53
Speaker
Yeah, knowledge and gentleman or ship, if that's the word. I don't know. I love it. The hunt or the ownership? Which one do you enjoy more?
01:00:04
Speaker
50-50. I like to hunt, but being a designer, because I can draw things, it means it's in my hands to make sure it happens. So I like to hunt, but when I hunt for too long, I sometimes get frustrated after six months. I know I have a sort of turning moment where when I've begged for long enough, I become all of a sudden very impatient and I let it go if I can't crack the code.
01:00:31
Speaker
And then the ownership of course is really like when you hunted something for six months or a year and it arrives and you're pleased because you know you waited long enough to get the right one and you didn't rush into it and you get to enjoy the right piece that you waited for. That's true joy.
01:00:49
Speaker
I don't even need to wear them. Sometimes I just kick them out of the box. I'm like, yep, that's the one I wanted. Took me 18 months, but it's there. Good job. Still looks good. Most importantly, do you feel that you're born with the collector's gene?
01:01:05
Speaker
Unfortunately, yes sir. Yeah, you and I both. So man, thank you so much for coming on today. I am absolutely honored to talk with you. I'm super impressed with you and everything that you've done and you deserve it all.
01:01:20
Speaker
Thank you very much. I'll keep listening every podcast. Thank you very much again for the lights that you put on the industry and to give us the chance to speak to your audience. You're part of the wheels of this whole magic. It would not happen without people that have true passion like yourself to do this. So thank you very much.
01:01:45
Speaker
Far too kind and looking forward to chatting again soon. Take care. Yes, thank you. Bye. Bye. All right, that does it for this episode. Thank you all for listening to Collector's Gene Radio.