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Meet the Team
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Welcome to Our Rule of Law: The Podcast, the definitive podcast on democracy and the rule of law, brought to you by the Our Rule of Law Foundation
In the second episode our show we sit down to share with you the history of our team, what are up to now, and what are our future plans. On this special occasion, we were joined by our founding mentor - Professor John Morijn
Are you interested in joing our team? We are currently seeking motivated students (or recent graduates) to join our team as Project Assistants.
As a Project Assistant, you will play a vital role in supporting the planning, execution, and evaluation of our upcoming project. The Our Rule of Law Foundation is a collaborative environment where students can learn, grow, and connect with leading experts. We encourage you to apply and share what YOU would like to work on!
You can apply via this link: https://forms.gle/mUQ1XCqR4TazYX32A
Application deadline: 22.10.2024 at 23:59 CET.
See you in the next epiosode of Our Rule of Law: The Podcast!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Rule of Law Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the next episode of our rule of law, the podcast. Today, we just wanted to tell you a bit more about us, the foundation, what we've been up to and what are some of the credits that we will be picking up next.
00:00:16
Speaker
maybe Yeah, so where do we start? Maybe let's start at the beginning. So, who we are and how we ended up here.
Meet the Hosts and Their Journey
00:00:24
Speaker
Yeah, so hi, I'm Elen. Anna, Zusa and I, we met while studying ah international European law in Groningen. I'm currently still in Groningen and I'm doing Dutch law.
00:00:36
Speaker
And I am also doing law at Leiden, a European law, and ala which will finish very soon. ah So I'm Susanna. I am, you know, we've met, you know, doing the same bachelors. I'm now switched to a bit of the law and finance, doing a bit of that economics and whatever comes my way.
Introducing John Moraine
00:01:02
Speaker
And we also have with us today, we're a very best advisor, founding mentor, icon, Professor John Moraine. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be back and think about being in Groningen. Well, I'm now in Berlin at Herti School, but I have kept my affiliation also with Groningen where I teach ah European law and international law.
00:01:31
Speaker
This is also how we've met, because we have met kind of because of your lecture.
The Team's Origin Story
00:01:38
Speaker
i We sent you a project proposal being all, you know, why I think this this rule of reference is a bit of a problem, how your reason is heading in the right direction.
00:01:49
Speaker
And to give you a bit more of a background on how we on a land and background also Tecla met. We've met on a social social distranger that Tecla Jackson organized in the middle of the bleak middle winter in in the park just chatting about the rule of law.
00:02:12
Speaker
decided to do something about this and send John an email inviting him to be a part of and our first project. So then, you know, that's how it started and we sort of keep going and for for the years ah after that. Well, now we're here.
00:02:33
Speaker
But I just want to say a funny anecdote. I think that's the part on how we met, because I think what's the funniest part about it is like I was working with Techline like talking about, like of course, rule of law. We should do something about it. We, as students, have responsibility to act. And then I said, oh, my god, I made the um i met this Zuzager in the park the other day. She is Polish. She will be totally up for this. And Kit you know, five seconds later, OK, maybe five minutes.
00:03:03
Speaker
We ran into Zuzah who was working with Elan. So basically all of this was written in the stars. And yeah, and i was I think it's always really cute when John says about the email he received from
Organizing the First Rule of Law Festival
00:03:17
Speaker
us. So maybe how did you react it when like four bachelor students were like, oh my God, let's do rule of law festival that could last a week and we're going to do all this great stuff. I reacted In the following way, first of all, this lecture was one of these ah bloody COVID lectures where you saw only ah sort of switched off cameras, talking to it into your own screen. And I was talking mainly about a colleague of mine, Wojciech Sadowski, and how we had been on trial in
00:03:50
Speaker
Warsaw. I think he actually participated in that meeting, so one of the few people that I actually saw their camera switch on was Wojciech Sadowski. I mainly remember at the moment I was absolutely delighted that something that was so basically impersonal as a as as a technical means had led to these chance encounters. so I remember very well that I want to facilitate this in in any way I can because I think it's very important to try and not only write about it, but also really teach about it and facilitate learning about it. And I think that that is what you guys have done terrifically by yeah translating your own interests into interesting projects for others. Yeah, so that email led us to creating the Arul of Law festival, which was the first event that we organized. It was in September of 2022? 2021? A very long time ago already. But it was an amazing experience and we had such a good time working together that we decided to continue.
00:05:03
Speaker
I have a funny anecdote about our rule of law festival because when there were few judges and attorneys and journalists coming from Poland, I decided to to use the occasion and they also met the minister, they met various journalists, they met very high level people in in the Hague.
00:05:26
Speaker
And when they had and done all of the events in the Netherlands, I asked the very famous Polish church, Igor Tulaya, what was his favorite moment of this whole couple of days. And he mentioned this concept that you had told of, meet your rule of law hero or dine with your rule of law hero. ah So that students were able to have dinner with somebody they admired on the condition that they had actually yeah prepared. And George Zulea said something along the lines that they were much better prepared and also much better, more enthusiastic than most journalists that I've met.
Impactful Initiatives: Dining with Legal Heroes
00:06:06
Speaker
And this is a man who gave interviews to everything from all major newspapers in Europe to the New York Times. So I thought that was a compliment and and a good illustration about the energy that I also remember from the our rule of law festival.
00:06:20
Speaker
Now, actually, I think this is one of my personal favorite elements of the programs that we did. And I think it gives you really the opportunity to to get to know someone on a personal level, other than just, say you know, this New York Times, even if it's a New York Times article, not even that, but it really gives you an opportunity to sit at the table and talk to someone about, you know, whether that would be the rule of law,
00:06:48
Speaker
ah Cats, dogs, whatever that might be anything that speaks your interest about them not only as a rule of law hero but also as a person that is behind all of that and and them personally. I think it really is a unique experience.
00:07:08
Speaker
That's really well put, Sousa, I think. Because I think one phrase that John says a lot is that you make a lot of friends along the way. And I think that was also one of the most fun parts of this journey, like still working on our rule of law.
00:07:27
Speaker
And I think we continue to put the rule of law heroes at the front of all of our projects. Because the second project we did expanded its scope, right, a bit outside of Poland and Hungary, of course, because that's not the only two countries.
00:07:45
Speaker
at stake, but we focus that in liberal democracy as a pre-show, let's say that, to John's ah inaugural lecture. How was that ah for you, John, actually, to see like this bunch of students? How is that as's an experience? How is that as having one of the most amazing inaugural lectures that I think the University of Groningen has ever seen?
00:08:11
Speaker
Now, I was recently thinking about that when I, two years after my inaugural lecture, I did a Twitter chat about and ah the rule of law in the Netherlands and I linked to to the inaugural lecture and ah I got an email from the from the library in Groningen that it had never happened before.
00:08:35
Speaker
that ah an inaugural lecture had was downloaded a lot more two years after an inaugural lecture than around the time itself. But what I remember most was that I thought it was amazing that you guys managed to ah zo to or to
Maintaining Positivity in Legal Challenges
00:08:51
Speaker
get so many young people interested in in and this pre-event and I thought that in fact the pre-event was the biggest success of the whole ah of of the whole day for me because It's extremely important and I think that that is the reason why i I'm so enthusiastic about your project. ah To not talk ourselves into a depression about that everything is just going down the drain. Every time I'm asked in media interviews
00:09:21
Speaker
But is there also some sort of positive element? Is there some silver lining? All I do is always mention you, because I think it's extremely important that not only you're interested, but so you're also really informing yourself, because I'm absolutely convinced that the only way you can make a difference is first allow yourself to have deep knowledge. And the best way to get deep knowledge is to talk to people on the front lines, ah proverbially, and and you'll see that Almost always when you are genuinely enthusiastic this will be reciprocated and that's why everybody who's listening to this should really consider working with you because ah the interest and enthusiasm is genuine and and therefore it will be an amazing learning opportunity.
00:10:08
Speaker
That will be a bit of a topic. But I feel like, you know, was whether that's the rule of law crisis and it's sort of backsliding media capture or, you know, whatever crisis we're really dealing with, it's very easy to have this tendency to fall into despair and sort of try to justify that as you're sort of going down.
00:10:31
Speaker
So as you're going down, I feel like a lot of people, and that's completely natural, completely understandable, have this tendency to, and really fondness to really, you know, dwell and go deeper into this this sadness and despair. So I think if there's one one thing that you can take away from this podcast is please don't.
00:10:53
Speaker
ah rather than take us as an excuse to not dwell into this despair any further and go and take action and actually fight for those things that you care for, whether there's the rule of law, climate change, any rights, whatever that be, find your cause and go and fight for them and be the the hero that your cause deserves.
00:11:18
Speaker
Very poetically put, Zuzia. Maybe going off of that Anna, what has or what does our rule of law mean to you?
00:11:31
Speaker
Oh, my God, stop. Oh, oh, OK. Well, I was not expecting this question. Well, I think it's for sure means friendships that taught me a lot in life and helped me to understand a bit more what is going on in my own country and how to put it in a context of a broader problem.
00:12:02
Speaker
that we have we face in Europe. ah But I i think, OK, this is very personal, but I think it's helped me also to find like some kind of purpose. It makes me really happy like every day. you know like It's been quite a long time since we were working together, like three years, right?
Personal Stories from Anna and Zuzia
00:12:22
Speaker
I'm like, yeah.
00:12:23
Speaker
one, two, three and to it was always a part of my life that made me really happy because of working with you because of the cause and fun things that we do along the way because like I was thinking I actually wanted to ask what was your favorite memory for from the second event because I remember it was a rainy day, like it was raining so bad. And we had to like organize all of the rooms and pick up the speakers from the train station. And I remember like biking with the volunteers and getting like groceries from Albert High, like snacks. And of course we had great conversation with like really inspiring people, but it was like those small moments that you have in between.
00:13:09
Speaker
yeah i I actually have one and certainly it pops in my mind every now and then. I just feel like generally when you're a young person, you can ah have, you know, a lot of things can slide, so to speak, right? And it's very funny to say it was a very rainy day. I do remember that very well.
00:13:31
Speaker
And one of our tests on the day itself was picking up some people from there from the train station. If you know how current it looks, it's quite a direct way from the the train station to the and the faculty and generally the university building. But you know anyways, you need to take this 15 minute walk.
00:13:51
Speaker
And I remember that with the highest degree of persistence, we were dragging the prison professor, Kim Lynn Sheppola, on a rainy day in like some form of a very thin.
00:14:07
Speaker
plastic yellow cape, right? the chris crae Even after she has and directly objected to being dragged across the city in such a rain. So I think, you know, I think it's both a great memory. And so that I also look at that with so much fondness of me as a very persistent, I think, I will I will say like 2021. Me and my will against the Princeton professor So I think that that's one of my my favorite memories from the day. Of course, that the event was so so so great that I think that's suck that sort of really vibrant people in my mind every now and then. Especially as we listened to ah Professor Chappelle on her lectures.
00:14:55
Speaker
yeah Yeah, for me, I think it was working with the volunteers and seeing people be so willing to help and to get involved with what we were doing and them seeing the importance in topics such as John's inaugural lecture. Also the amount of people that ended up coming to the event, I think it was right in the middle or before exam season. And yet I think there were 150, 200 people that showed up to five panel discussions. I don't think we were expecting those numbers.
00:15:25
Speaker
but it was amazing and hearing what all the speakers had to say and the audience getting so involved in the topics of discussion that was also really cool to see. I mean for me it's really important to ah to and that because of of of your event it became also sort of an intergenerational ah mobilization around the same concern and that's very important right. I mean ah typically ah Professors only talk to each other and everybody agrees. And of course, you know given my background of not only being a scholar but also being a former civil servant, a diplomat, somebody who works with NGOs, for me it has always been more exciting to be a little bit more dynamic in that regard.
00:16:13
Speaker
But what I was most proud of was that and but I had managed somehow you know where in in the in that first lecture and by just ah helping you to organize this, to create and this this real wave that is still ongoing with our rule of law, which Ana just said, ah it's ah it's the best thing that happened to her over the last three years. But it I can say it's the best thing that happened in my career. I find it really cool to help you guys with ah with this because i I believe deeply in the relevance of the topic of course but you know I can write an op-ed today that's published tomorrow and and then there's a Dutch proverb that the day afterwards is in the litter box or I can be on TV or in a newspaper or whatever.
00:17:01
Speaker
What is 100% more important for me is to help to equip people to to be critical themselves. I'm not necessarily keen for them for anybody to adopt the same opinion at all. I mean that's not i just want to to make sure that everybody understands the stakes.
00:17:19
Speaker
That's what's much more important and that's why your project is so cool. It's it's one thing to understand the stakes and you still can get really depressed. It's much more important to understand your own agency and doing something about it.
00:17:32
Speaker
And there's many things that anybody can do. And I'm saying that on every occasion. But of course, it's very important to make that connection between knowledge and and and and and something concrete that you can can do. And I think that all of the things that you've organized so far, you know, make that bridge and and therefore they are so successful because a lot of people see from all over Europe all the people that have participated in your events. It's also for that reason that everybody stays in touch because you touch the court with them. That is something that is is is not present in many other projects.
00:18:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think on on that note here, what also really moves me exactly what you said about people staying in touch, whether it's the volunteers from the first two events that we organized in Groningen or the participants of our two last projects that are really from all over Europe. it's I think you create such a important bonds and you just support each other.
00:18:40
Speaker
follow what everyone is up to and unite in a common cause but exactly like realizing your own agency and what you as a person have to do in this ah particular topic. What i I haven't personally expected is that but I think when you're starting with whatever project that is, you just sort of go in there, try to put your things, get yourself exposed to, you know, whatever happens. And what I haven't personally expected is that people will actually like it, that we're gonna do something that... that you know, genuinely enjoy, you know, especially when you're trying out a new approach, a conference, a mentorship program, you know, a nice workshop, we allegedly a nice workshop, which you know, you're trying out for the first time and you don't really know what you're getting out of that. I sometimes haven't expected
00:19:40
Speaker
this level of positive reactions from people and the fact that they've been able to create such a change, not maybe even on the rule of law area. There's a lot of things to you know work on that here, but in the individual lives of our participants. I think that was a very surprising, me but it's a very rewarding point for me to see that, oh wow, there are people who care,
00:20:07
Speaker
And they do our program. Oh, and now they care even more. That's great. So I think that was a very rewarding part of the experience as well. That also motivates me and I think both when all Anna, Alan and John to actually keep moving forward with with what we have to do.
00:20:27
Speaker
And because at this point it's what we have to do, in our words, we're three years in, the sun costs are there, so I guess we just have to be going. There's no stopping now. that But that's that's a thing, you build like really nice community, right, of friends that it's spread all over Europe, but you care about the same thing and you bond
Building a Supportive Community
00:20:50
Speaker
very quickly. like And I need to say the two boot camps that we did in Brussels for our rule of law Academy and in Berlin for votes for our rule of law.
00:20:58
Speaker
We're pretty sick, so it's so much fun. And I think we all did, and not only with the program, but also with this yeah moment to just get to know each other. Play flankey ball in Berlin. Exactly. No, I think it's very geared towards students, the way that half of the program is very academic and really giving them an opportunity to delve into something that they care about, which is rule of law and democracy. And then on the other hand, being able to build a community by playing slunky ball or by getting to know each other and by working together in groups. So I hope all our participants also feel that still to this day that there's a group of people out there that care about the same things that they do and that are willing to take action.
00:21:50
Speaker
Not all fun and games, you know, we also do make you do some work if you decide to join us so that you don't think it's, you know, it's all playing thank you balls and fun vibes. And we do actually try to to teach our participants something by also having fun.
00:22:05
Speaker
But I think some of those projects with that are actually and would actually be even even to us and even to some serious practitioners quite a challenge. Looking back to the academy, all the writing of the policy proposals that you actually have to go and pitch to people who you know who work in Brussels, who deal with those things on a daily basis and who are They're ready to criticize this proposal that you just wrote from top to bottom. I think it's a very big challenge that I think is quite a unique challenge as well.
00:22:40
Speaker
I think that your project is unique in that it's truly pan-European. It's very rare to have a community of dedicated students from so many different member states that gather around what, ah you know for all practical purposes, is quite quite a niche kind of thing, right and however important it is. And I think that that has stayed with me the most. that's um I remember that during our last project in Berlin, which was about first-time voters convincing each other to vote for the European Parliament elections, that at the end the of of the project somebody gave UN node the best team ever, which I thought was very sweet. But i mean that really captured the mood, that was really in the room with so many different nationalities.
Attracting Notable Figures to the Project
00:23:32
Speaker
it's ah and i think that that is It attracts both young and old. My own favorite moment, to be honest with you guys, was that you had so ah organized one of the lectures, I think it was for the Academy, and you had received a direct message from Eleanor Sharpton, without immediately knowing who was Eleanor Sharpton.
00:23:54
Speaker
the basically the the best ever advocate general in the European Court of Justice who had just been attracted ah specifically by your enthusiasm and I remember very well as a very fond memory that you ended up in almost alone with her and Professor Sheppola in a team school simply with two absolute superstars in the field that had simply been attracted by the nature of your project. So this should some somehow also you know be the executive summary about when you organize anything new and that it should be very interested and interesting for anybody who is wants to learn in a boutique way and you only learn in a boutique way if you're also willing and able to put in the hours and and because of course by now
00:24:40
Speaker
Also because you want prices for what you've done, there's a lot more interest than places, so the the selection will be strict and the the motivation is is a place where it plays a large role. Quickly going back to that Eleanor Sharpe's incident, that was the I think the wildest thing that has happened to us within our rule of law.
00:25:04
Speaker
And she actually also gave the closing speech at the Academy, which you can find on our website, as well as the kickoff lecture by Kim Layton-Chapela that Eleanor Sharpton attended. So in case you're interested in that, you should definitely look into that. Yeah. And it's a speech that's going to bring you to tears. I know it's brought us to tears. John documented it very well. Yes.
00:25:26
Speaker
But I feel like we have a lot of those moments that we say, oh my god, that was the craziest moment ever. And then it's again, it's again, it's again, something else. So it keeps you on your toes for sure. That was a pretty good introduction into our rule of law and who we
Upcoming Projects and Opportunities
00:25:43
Speaker
are. ah What are your future plans, by the way? I'm interested. How can I apply?
00:25:50
Speaker
So what John is currently referring to is that we have an open application for project assistants who will help us develop and bring to life our next project, which we can't share just yet. But it's guaranteed to be extremely educational, extremely fun, and a very good experience.
00:26:08
Speaker
So we have the applications closed on the 22nd of October, 2024 for the project assistance. And then we'll be announcing our newest project in December, most likely. um And other than that, we'll continue working and striving to create the best possible project for you students to get involved in.
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's, I think, very good wrap up. And if you have any questions about us or what is our coffee order or how you can apply, ah you can actually find the link, probably also linked in this podcast description button, all of our social media. And if you have any questions, let us know. You can email us. The email is available on our website. As well, our DMs are also open on LinkedIn, on Instagram.
00:27:01
Speaker
ah So yeah, Tim, any last words or is it a wrap?