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An Interview with András Léderer
211 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to Our Rule of Law: The Podcast, the definitive podcast on democracy and the rule of law, brought to you by the Our Rule of Law Foundation.
In our very first episode, we're excited to welcome András Léderer, a Head of Advocacy at the Hungarian Helsinki Committee.
Throughout this interview, we'll uncover his aspirations for what lies ahead and examine the reasons behind his persistence and commitment, even in the face of significant opposition from the Hungarian government.
We’ve asked Márta Pardavi, his colleague and a friend, the co-chair of the Hungarian Helsinki Committee to introduce András and tell us how their paths first crossed.
So tune in, engage, and let's explore the foundations of our democracy together.
Our website: https://www.ourruleoflaw.eu
Support Hungarian Helsinki Committee: https://helsinki.hu/en/
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Transcript
Introduction to Democracy and Rule of Law Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to our Rule of Law, the Definite Podcast on Democracy and the Rule of Law, brought to you by the Our Rule of Law Foundation. I'm Susanna, and together with my co-host Anna Nalem, we bring you into the heart of the most pressing issues facing our democratic institutions today.
Podcast Goals and Professional Discussions
00:00:16
Speaker
In each episode, we are joined by leading professionals, from legal experts to policymakers, academics to activists, to dissect, debate and discuss the principles that underpin our society. Our goal is to enlighten, challenge and inspire deep dives into the laws that govern us, the rights we cherish and the duties we uphold as rule of law defenders.
Featuring András Ledera from Hungarian Helsinki Committee
00:00:36
Speaker
Stay with us as we navigate through this complex with vital topics, bringing clarity and insights straight from the experts. Today, we are excited to welcome András Ledera, the head of advocacy at the Hungarian Helsinki Committee. Throughout this interview, we will uncover his aspirations for what lies ahead and examine the reasons behind his persistence and commitment, even in the face of significant opposition from the Hungarian government.
00:00:59
Speaker
Before we dive into our interview, you've asked Marta Perdavi, his colleague and a dear friend, the co-chair of the Hungarian Helsinki Committee to introduce Andrzej and tell us how their paths first crossed.
Ledera's Background and Experience in Human Rights
00:01:11
Speaker
So tune in, engage, and let's explore the foundations of our democracy together. So thank you for the opportunity to introduce Andrzej, who is my colleague at the Hungarian Helsinki Committee, and when
00:01:27
Speaker
You look him up on our website or other websites where you would find his bio. He says that he joined the Hungarian Helsinki Committee in 2015 and he is our senior advocacy officer. He also describes that he earned degrees in terrorism, conflict and security, and then in violent conflict and development.
00:01:56
Speaker
And this is basically the gist of his CV. But I have to say, when I met him in 2015, I had no idea about his CV because it was the summer of 2015, which was in many European countries, dominated by the plight and the stories and the political crisis around refugees coming in huge numbers to Europe.
00:02:25
Speaker
refugees fleeing wars in Syria and Afghanistan and armed conflict elsewhere. And Hungary was very much at the frontline of this. Over 400,000 people had passed through Hungary during that summer. And the Hungarian Helsinki Committee was very involved in
00:02:45
Speaker
both trying to find out what is happening to people who want to seek international protection and also providing information and legal assistance to them. And it was in this context that we met Anvesh, who was volunteering, leading a big group of volunteers in one of the main train stations in Budapest. And the volunteer group was doing all it could to help people
00:03:14
Speaker
find some temporary shelter and safety and information.
Evolving Role in Refugee Assistance and Advocacy
00:03:19
Speaker
And it was thus that we became in a way working on the same topic together. But
00:03:28
Speaker
It was a very, very, really a very tense period of crisis. And so at the time, the Hungarian Helsinki Committee realized that we need more lawyers around the country to help refugees and asylum seekers and migrants to get informed. And we need somebody to coordinate this. And we asked Andes if he would join the committee and coordinate the work of these lawyers
00:03:55
Speaker
because he was doing such a great work coordinating volunteers at the train station. And he too, our big happiness said yes. And so he was hired for something which he eventually ended up not doing because times moved on. And soon enough, he started working on further monitoring what is happening to people trying to cross into Hungary. What are the legal obstacles
00:04:25
Speaker
and the practical obstacles and what is the treatment by police and authorities that people seeking international protection are facing. And so he started focusing very much on pushbacks at the border and also on monitoring international and European standards for refugee protection. And this work evolved into advocacy. And as things unfolded in Hungary,
00:04:53
Speaker
things eroded in Hungary on the rule of law front, this advocacy also started encompassing rule of law themes. Today, his work very much consists of leading our advocacy efforts on both the rule of law and also on refugee protection.
Connection Between Refugee Rights and Rule of Law Issues
00:05:10
Speaker
But he does this together with many colleagues, also increasingly
00:05:15
Speaker
other colleagues taking part in the advocacy, because it was, I think, due to his arrival and also the turbulent times in 2015 that the Hungarian Helsinki Committee really started focusing on international and European advocacy, first for refugee protection, and then second for rule of law. But today in 2023, as Anders leads these efforts, we have tied the two themes together because, in fact,
00:05:45
Speaker
access or the denial of access to international protection and the way this is done in Europe is very much a rule of law issue as well. And this realization has set in in our work already early on in 2015, but this is common understanding today. And Andesh has been, I think, instrumental in tying the two things together and showing
00:06:10
Speaker
how people who are the most vulnerable are often the first victims of rule of law decline. And I'm very proud to be working with him, but I have to say I found out about his very important professional background much later, years after we hired him, because we never asked him for his CV when we hired him. It was such a turbulent time, but also such a
00:06:38
Speaker
fortunate coincidence and alignment that we ended up hiring a person who has a really deep understanding of conflict, violent conflict, armed conflict, the impact it has on people, the international architecture, policies and rules that should protect people, but they in fact don't. And I think the fact that he's working today in Hungary to
00:07:06
Speaker
bring these notions and standards back to life and to convey that to policy and decision makers is the best way he can contribute to maintaining a high level of protection of human rights standards. And it's a real pleasure to work with him. He's a super popular member of our team. He has an excellent network both in Hungary and beyond.
00:07:28
Speaker
and has built up a wide range of alliances for rule of law in Europe. And I'm just curious to see what the next stage will bring for both him and his professional career, but also for our team in Budapest.
Advocacy Work and Article 7 Hearing
00:07:49
Speaker
Hello, everyone. As you've heard in our introduction, we have a very special guest with us today, András Lezirer. Welcome to our podcast. Thank you so much for being with us here today. As you would say in Hungarian, Sia, Georgian, Gama Jova. Thank you for being here. Gama Jova, Sia, Sia Stork. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very happy that I get to be the first guest. That's an honor, I guess.
00:08:18
Speaker
It really, really is. And we were just maybe wanting to start off with asking how you've been? Where are you now? What are you up to?
00:08:32
Speaker
Busy Friday morning, I have to say. We are recording this at the beginning of November. And I just sent out this morning a report that we prepared ahead of the Article 7 hearing at the General Affairs Council in the middle of November.
00:08:54
Speaker
touching up on five specific areas of concern, issues where the Hungarian Helsinki Committee has been quite involved in, where we think that member states should put some questions to the Hungarian government and even possibly put forward some recommendations. This is something we have been calling for
00:09:23
Speaker
about a year, a year and a half now that the article seven proceeding should actually move ahead to the second phase where member states formulate recommendations to the country that's under the procedure. So I sent it out and as things go, questions already came back. People wanted more information on this or that topic. So I was dealing with that, but I'm also very happy
00:09:53
Speaker
because my heart belongs still to the refugee program at the Hungarian Helsinki Committee Order. As head of advocacy, I'm working on all the topics that we cover. And here in the Article 7 hearing,
00:10:12
Speaker
Unlike on many of the other rule of law topics, the issue of the rights of refugees is obviously heavily featured. So finally I get to talk about refugee issues as well.
00:10:25
Speaker
Great. Thank you. Thank you so much. I was actually wondering, because we were all students at this point, and we were also always wondering how people like you get to the place where they are. So I actually was wondering, where did you study? Like, most importantly, what did you study and how come did you choose your study topic?
00:10:51
Speaker
So I have the answer to your question and then I have a general answer, which I also give to my students at the university because I also teach course at the university here in Budapest.
00:11:07
Speaker
But to answer your question, I originally studied ethnic conflict resolution and security studies at the University of Paris-Swiss in the UK and then at the School of Oriental and African Studies in the UK.
Career Path and Accidental Impactful Choices
00:11:26
Speaker
And my original focus was language and trauma, the connection between the language we speak and collective trauma experienced by societies who had to suffer
00:11:49
Speaker
long series of systemic migrations. My focus area was Chechnya. But the reason I chose that field of study was that I ended up kind of accidentally in Georgia in 2008 in August during the Russian invasion.
00:12:15
Speaker
And by then I was already in mad deep love with the country. So I stayed and I volunteered as a humanitarian volunteer there during the war. And I stayed for a month. And then I got to know quite a lot of civil society people there. And I went back to work in 2010 to Georgia.
00:12:44
Speaker
And I actually imagined myself moving to Tbilisi and working on the Apaz Georgian conflict. And although I was very involved and interested, I also felt that while some kind of university degree would be useful in the field, before that I studied history in Hungary. So that's how I ended up doing that.
00:13:14
Speaker
And in 2014, when I finished my studies in London at SAWS, I had to move back to Hungary. I already had a couple of job offers in Georgia, but because of having a healthcare situation, I had to move back to Budapest.
00:13:42
Speaker
By the time I got well, I could no longer take any of the jobs I had on offering Georgia. But then the refugee crisis of 2015 started.
00:14:01
Speaker
And I got involved there as a volunteer, again. And then I was invited to work here at the Hungary and Helsinki Committee in September 2015. So I didn't study law. I always have to clarify that, especially because almost all of my colleagues here studied law. And many of them are infected or needs themselves. I never did.
00:14:29
Speaker
I was interested in it, but I always felt that I just couldn't cope with the difference between what is lawful and what is justifiable. So I never went close to the field to study, which I have to say I'm a bit sorry about by now, but who knows, maybe in the future.
00:14:58
Speaker
But sorry, I really want to emphasize that the short thing is that especially when people go to study for their BA in their early or mid 20s, I think we all have an idea or at least a dream of what we want to do and why we are studying, whatever we are studying.
00:15:23
Speaker
But in many cases life doesn't work that way, that we plan it like a computer game. And what I can tell you really honestly is that all the best things in my life, also from a professional perspective,
00:15:42
Speaker
happened by absolute chance. Nothing planned, nothing really what I thought. So looking back now, I can see how they follow logically from each other. But I just want to say, as long as you do something where you find your personal drive that really interests you, you will be fine.
Motivations and Collective Advocacy Efforts
00:16:08
Speaker
So don't worry about that part.
00:16:12
Speaker
And if I may, as we were already talking about the sort of drive towards doing what you do, and also, you know, I have a question about your personal motivation for, as far as your advocacy work goes, and what was the sort of main driver for you throughout those years? Would that be some sort of a sense of personal duty or this sort of intrinsic motivation, or what would be like the factor for you that motivated you throughout those years?
00:16:43
Speaker
So as I said, I'm not a lawyer, and I never studied law. So helping individual people with their cases, as much as I would love to do it, I can't. I'm happy to talk about how I can still somewhat do that in the refugee program when it comes to collective expulsions and violence at the border. But in general, I can't do it.
00:17:13
Speaker
but I'm quite okay, professionally speaking, when it comes to advocacy. And so I'm the type of guy who likes to work together with other people and likes to...
00:17:34
Speaker
to put in whatever effort they can to bring about the common goal. So when I realized I can't help individually that effectively, I thought, well, then why don't I do the advocacy part? So that's, you know, when I joined the Hungarian Housing Committee in 2015,
00:17:58
Speaker
I was the first advocacy person in the organization. So although there was some kind of advocacy activity, obviously even before I arrived,
00:18:11
Speaker
but I actually built up most of this work. And that's an important driving factor because that's how I can help actually at the end of the day, a lot of other individual people. The other driving force is that, especially when I think when it comes to illiberal regimes, one of the,
00:18:36
Speaker
the most effective weapon they have in their toolbox is to silence dissent and to discourage people from talking to each other but also to speak up and share their grievances but also protest against the grievances of others.
00:19:02
Speaker
And maybe for family reasons or because of my personality, it's pretty difficult to scare me or to silence me with these tactics. And I also felt that, look, if I can do that, and this is a growing problem in Hungary, then maybe I should.
Commitment to Advocacy in Hungary Despite Challenges
00:19:30
Speaker
On that note, I was wondering, because in your bio on a Hungarian Helsinki Committee, it says that working in Hungary is simply the only thing that makes sense for you. And I was just wondering, first of all, why? And second of all, following up on what you just said, can you also tell us more about your experiencing with silencing your job on the ground?
00:20:01
Speaker
especially as a citizen of the European Union, it would be so simple to just leave Budapest physically, even physically possibly, and do something else somewhere else.
00:20:25
Speaker
But I chose not to. And I made that decision a long time ago, but I had to make that decision several times since then. And I keep choosing the same thing not to go anywhere. But if I decided to stay in Budapest and work on issues related to Hungary, then
00:20:49
Speaker
I really can't imagine doing it anywhere else than the Hungarian Helsinki community for quite many reasons. One of them is the extremely high professional standards that my colleagues represent.
00:21:06
Speaker
the never ending opportunities to learn from them. As I said, I've been here for almost a decade and not today passes by that there is something I learned from them. And also because this is an extremely supportive, very tight knit community.
00:21:32
Speaker
professionally speaking, but also on a very personal level.
Facing Personal Attacks and Maintaining Integrity
00:21:37
Speaker
It is a second home in many ways. And that is something you really need when you are up against an illiberal regime that doesn't shy away from using extremely nasty tactics against its perceived opponents and perceived enemies.
00:22:03
Speaker
give you a couple of examples what I mean. It wasn't just me, but I was also personally a target of
00:22:14
Speaker
a private intelligence agency's operation a couple of years ago, where people pretended to be someone they were not, recorded discussions like the discussions we are having today, and then edited those discussions in a manner that put the individuals in a very difficult position.
00:22:43
Speaker
And then these recordings were somehow published in state-owned media and pro-government media. A couple of months ago, or when was that? In the spring, one morning I woke up and I was featured on the cover page of the largest online state pro-government media
00:23:12
Speaker
where they tried to make a connection between a perceived pedophile and myself and the Hungarian Helsinki Committee. None of that was true, but the way the smear campaigns work is that they don't have to be true. They just run through the propaganda machine and are repeated for days on practically every channel that they own.
00:23:42
Speaker
Of course, these things, and I could go on with a lot of examples, these things are aimed at discouraging people, actually the people they are attacking to continue their job, but also discouraging others to start doing similar things or to join the organizations that are being targeted. I'm not saying they are completely ineffective,
00:24:12
Speaker
But if you take my example, for example, they have been absolutely useless because I'm still here. What I'm getting from your talk here and from our conversation as a whole is that working within an illiberal regime
00:24:31
Speaker
and also against an illiberal regime as in the case of you requires well first of all a lot of resilience but also a lot of professionalism and integrity especially when you're dealing with smear campaigns which are as you know as most of them are aimed at especially when it comes to you know this sort of crime allegations and crime connections
00:24:53
Speaker
as you're mentioning and are directly targeted at sort of distracting that integrity that you yourself possess. But my question is a bit different in that regard. I just want to ask you about some of the lessons that we as advocates both around Europe and not for instance within the Hungarian, within the liberal regimes can learn from the Hungarian activists.
00:25:19
Speaker
And what we as Europeans and as European activists, some within liberal regimes and some beyond, are within regimes autocratizing as we speak. What can you learn from different movements, from all different continents, whether that be US or some of the resistance movements that we can see emerging across Asia? I think one of the most important lessons I've learned over these years
00:25:49
Speaker
apart from what you refer to as personal integrity or individual integrity, is the importance to be up to date and very precise when it comes to the facts that you are talking about. There cannot be an easier and larger mistake to make than to say,
00:26:20
Speaker
inaccurate things. For example, when it comes to the independence of the judiciary or the situation of asylum seekers and refugees. Because what happens, especially in the case of Hungary, where the illiberal regime is actually managed by people who studied law themselves and are, I have to admit, quite good at that.
00:26:45
Speaker
is when you don't know your facts and you are caught making a mistake. So one important lesson is to do your homework and be very well prepared. When it comes to all the other examples, I would be cautious to try to adapt
00:27:15
Speaker
or adopt those into any other context.
Strategies Against Autocratic Regimes
00:27:22
Speaker
There has been attempts to do that and they failed and I think one of the reasons is that today's autocratic regimes share a lot in common
00:27:36
Speaker
But they are really very different. Hungary is very far or very different from being Turkey or Russia. And today's Russia is very different from today's Turkey, partly because of the war it wages, but for other reasons as well. And from miles away, not to mention continents away, these might seem almost identical examples of illiberal regimes.
00:28:05
Speaker
In fact, they are very different. Just if you look at the Polish and Hungarian example, so many people thought that, well, this is the two sides of the same coin. But I very much disagree with that on many levels. So first, yes, look for inspiration in all these other places.
00:28:34
Speaker
but never expect that what worked in Malaysia, for example, is going to work in Hungary or even what necessarily worked in Poland is going to work in Hungary or vice versa. That's a very good lesson to keep in mind, especially with
00:28:58
Speaker
how many situations are actually going on in the world. But I wanted to ask a question quickly tying back to what you said about smear campaigns and what was said about you and the Hungarian Helsinki Committee in the newspapers. In a way smear campaigns are a way to show that what you're doing is good because you've gotten the attention from these people and that you're creating a disruption. So stemming from that I wanted to ask what do you and Hungarian Helsinki Committee do that has
00:29:27
Speaker
caused you to be a thorn in the Hungarian government side? You know this is crazy in a way because none of us signed up to be a thorn. It happened and it happened gradually but I think the real breaking point was 2015-2016 with the refugee crisis and
00:29:54
Speaker
What happened if I want to look at it from a game theory point of view or how to model the relationship is that you had an NGO that dates back to the end of the 80s that traditionally focused on three areas, asylum seekers, criminal justice, and rule of law. These are the three topics the Hungary Enhancing Committee have been working on
00:30:24
Speaker
in the early 1990s, during the 2000s and over the past 10 years, there is nothing new under the sun like that. But then gradually, each of these topics became a toxic domestic political issue in Hungary, not because of our doing or our choosing, but because of the way the government decided to run and manage things. But
00:30:53
Speaker
As people, and then going back to what Zuzano said, people with integrity choose their position, the activities they work on as people working as an NGO, not based on what the government expects you to do or wants to forbid you to do, but based on your own personal convictions.
Role of the Committee in Government Opposition
00:31:22
Speaker
So there was no question for us that just because the government wants to paint all refugees in an extremely negative manner, and then even introduce legislation that threatened with imprisonment, anyone who provides legal assistance to asylum seekers, so par excellence, all of us in the office,
00:31:49
Speaker
We said, well, we've been doing this 20 years ago, 10 years ago last week, and we will continue to do so regardless of what's happening. But that is this kind of resistance, this kind of refusal to play by their rules, to say what they wanted to hear actually, that okay,
00:32:14
Speaker
we will no longer provide assistance to refugees or in the case of the rule of law, okay, we will no longer criticize the significant deficiencies and the willful destruction of the rule of law in Hungary, that we are not going to play by these games, that's how we became a thorn. But I have to say that from where I sit, from where I experienced these things,
00:32:43
Speaker
We were never looking for such a role. We just kept doing the same things we have been doing before, but suddenly one morning you wake up and that is defined as undermining state sovereignty or you name it.
00:33:06
Speaker
From what are you saying, I really get the feeling that your job is really your passion and purpose.
00:33:14
Speaker
And I can imagine that your resistance will be a page in the history books and you live a lot of moments that will be included in those history books. And I was wondering, like, what was the most fulfilling experience you had so far in your job, but also what was the hardest moment that you had to face? Wow.
00:33:44
Speaker
That's very difficult. The most fulfilling, one of them is definitely connected to a specific case, a case of a refugee who was pushed back from Hungary to Serbia in 2016. He was our first pushback client.
00:34:14
Speaker
And he was then chain-refouled to other countries around the Western Balkan route and then eventually all the way to his country of origin. But he kept in touch all of these years with me. I was the one documenting his case and then collecting evidence to be able to litigate at the European Court of Human Rights.
00:34:41
Speaker
And all the things that he went through, I would not expected anyone to remain interested in pursuing a case at the ECHR. But we won his case two years ago.
00:35:01
Speaker
related to pushback. But he was also very badly beaten by Hungarian police officers during the pushback. And that was obviously a separate case because that's an Article 3 violation. We could only start the litigation after the domestic investigation procedure was over. And we won that case as well, just a couple of weeks ago. And
00:35:31
Speaker
I wrote to him the day before the judgment was delivered, saying, well, of course he knows, but you know, just a reminder, tomorrow morning we'll get the judgment.
00:35:45
Speaker
This man wrote to me the day before the judgment that, well, I just want to say, I don't care if we win or lose at this point, because I'm just so happy that you, referring to us, trusted me all these years, and that I already kind of feel vindicated and that justice was served.
00:36:08
Speaker
But we won the case. So we should be double happy. But that was a very important moment for me. And also to understand that for so many people still today, the fact that you receive a piece of paper from a court with a stamp on it that says what happened to you was unjustifiable and your rights were violated.
Legal Battles and Government Responses
00:36:35
Speaker
even like it happened seven years ago in 2016, even today, it is very important for them. And that is a very good reminder of why we should continue the work at low point. Well, I give you an example, but unfortunately, it can happen often.
00:37:01
Speaker
that we are fighting against one type of injustice or one kind of violation and we succeed but the way the government reacts to that is a new form of violation and you feel like yes you succeeded
00:37:29
Speaker
But have you contributed with your success to a completely new type of rights violation?
00:37:40
Speaker
And that, although I didn't cause it, but you might feel that you probably have a responsibility there. And that is the story of the closing of the transit zones. So we had a system from 2015 until 2020.
00:38:01
Speaker
where all asylum seekers at some point, including children, unaccompanied children as well, were kept indefinitely in metal containers in the middle of nowhere behind barbed wires. Some of
00:38:18
Speaker
the people were there for over two years. There were children who haven't seen a single tree in their life because they were small babies when they entered and then they sort of grew up there until they were two and three years old. With the massive work of litigation, mainly strategic litigation, but also advocacy, we got to the point where
00:38:47
Speaker
the government decided to actually shut down these facilities. And we thought, great, and more than 300 people were released from unlawful detention. And then the next day, the government announced a completely new asylum system, which practically makes it impossible for people to seek protection in Hungary. And now we are fighting against that system.
Lessons from Polish Elections and Future of Democracy
00:39:15
Speaker
But when you have an illiberal regime that uses its powers, among others, to overrule judicial decisions, to come up with the craziest legal construct you can think of, just to avoid providing any kind of remedies, for example, to individuals who think their rights have been violated.
00:39:47
Speaker
But that can make things pretty difficult sometimes. And if I may, actually, also on that note, I feel like, you know, at the moment we're recording this podcast, we are under three weeks apart from the Polish parliamentary elections.
00:40:05
Speaker
for a lot of Polish people and I think a lot of Europeans and even beyond this outcome of this election is sort of a, I would say, a catharsis moment or at least a hopeful moment for the future of Poland and Europe as a whole. But what's your take on the matter? Do you think that the outcome of this elections
00:40:30
Speaker
is something that we... Well, of course we should celebrate, I don't say. But do you think we should remain vigilant about the way that the protection of human rights is being picked up on or taken care of in the country? And do you think that the outcome of this election is actually the shift that many of the Polish people and Europeans were waiting for?
00:40:59
Speaker
Well, I think for the second question, only time will tell if this is a real shift or real change. And that kind of answers your first question as well. Yes, I think if you are a human rights defender, if you are working on the protection or rebuilding in other cases of the rule of law,
00:41:25
Speaker
then it might be, you know, possible that it's easier to cooperate with one government than the other or that there is a significant change in attitude between one government and the other. But our role is to be vigilant regardless of who is in power. So yes, and I think, you know,
00:41:53
Speaker
In the case of Poland, for some certain reasons, partly because the previous government did not have the necessary votes in the same to actually amend the Polish prosecution. But the damage that's being done is probably, hopefully, not as deep rooted as is the case in Hungary.
00:42:25
Speaker
The other reason why I'm hopeful that the problems Poland has are not that deep-rooted is because simply the regime didn't have enough time. Try to imagine that there is already a generation in Hungary that is reaching now their political consciousness
00:42:55
Speaker
who only saw this kind of a liberal system in their life. They haven't seen a political debate before an election taking place because this is not part of it. When they turn on the state media for them, what is normal is that you only hear one perspective and one position. For them, what is normal
00:43:22
Speaker
is that there is no engagement between government officials and independent civil society organizations because the government is not willing to engage with critical voices. It is so difficult because for them, this is the normal. They have never seen, they have never experienced anything else. And that also means that whatever change will come, we also have to include
00:43:52
Speaker
teaching these generations on how to participate in public life that it's okay and actually it is your duty as a citizen to be informed
00:44:07
Speaker
to have your own opinion, to feel safe, to stand by your opinion, to express your views, to participate in peaceful assemblies. This hasn't taken place in Poland.
Speculation on Hungary's Democratic Future
00:44:25
Speaker
Nonetheless, being vigilant is, I think, of utmost importance there as well. Then if I can follow up on that as well.
00:44:36
Speaker
And I fully agree with you that I would say give it a couple of weeks and see how the situation develops. Though I also want to ask you, because the general opinion seems to be quite optimistic as regards the outcome of the Polish elections. People call it the win for democracy, the dramatic shift in the Polish politics are alike. But do you think that similar future can be on Hungary's horizon? Now or in five years and 10 years,
00:45:11
Speaker
Eventually, I'm sure. I think very honestly, I'm concerned that we are moving in that sense in opposite directions still. So yes, it will eventually happen.
00:45:36
Speaker
But I wouldn't be so optimistic to say it's in three years or four years. And again, this is no longer, I think, about an election, which is a moment in time. People go to vote on a day, and then you get the results, and then you feel relief. The problems.
00:46:05
Speaker
we have in Hungary I think are now much deeply rooted that are not going to change through an reaction. It's a much longer and painful process. But it will eventually have to happen because there is no other way.
Reflections on Advocacy Work and Resilience
00:46:26
Speaker
The lucky thing is that the vast majority of my compatriots
00:46:33
Speaker
we want to remain any member state. And if that is the case, which is, then that comes with clear consequences. So that's why I'm saying it is going to happen eventually, but it's a long process.
00:46:54
Speaker
Thank you so much for that answer. And we with our rule of law kind of share the same sentiment that it's a long future, but that future can happen if young people start to care and young people are educated about different topics. You've already shared a lot of very insightful things that I think will kind of resonate with a lot of young people and motivate them to
00:47:18
Speaker
take action and not just sit back and be submissive when a liberal government takes charge. And with that note, I would like to ask you a somewhat difficult question. And if you had to summarize
00:47:34
Speaker
all your life experience, everything that you've experienced in Hungary, in Georgia, all these combined. What is the singular piece of advice you would give to someone who wants to be a rule of law defender, a democracy defender, a human rights defender, to keep them motivated and to, yeah, kind of inspire them or and just a piece of advice? Really,
00:48:03
Speaker
I think the most important thing is to spend some time with yourself regularly and
00:48:15
Speaker
really appreciate the assistance that you provide to the people. Whatever field you're working on, whatever kind of work you do, wherever you do that, there is value in the assistance that you do. And very few of us work on this field, actually. So what you give to that other person would
00:48:44
Speaker
probably not be given by anyone else. And I think too often we fail to appreciate the actual work that we do in that sense. So what really, one of the things that really motivated me over the past couple of months and
00:49:09
Speaker
This might be a bit too personal, but I was very sick over the past six months. I almost didn't make it. And apart from my amazing colleagues and friends and family, of course, who stood beside me,
00:49:29
Speaker
One of the most shocking and eye-opening experience for me was that all of these clients of ours who knew me personally
00:49:40
Speaker
but are no longer living here in Hungary or have never lived here in Hungary because, for example, they were pushed back and beat them by the police. When they got rid of my sickness and illness, they all felt a personal
00:49:59
Speaker
duty to reach out and offer their help and love in a way they could. Some people prayed, some people wanted to send me money, some people simply regularly wrote very comforting and supportive messages.
00:50:22
Speaker
But that was when I realized that throughout all these years what I felt as a daily obligation of mine
00:50:33
Speaker
that I'm talking to these people, that I'm recording their testimonies, that I'm advocating for their rights. It meant so much for them that even after half a decade, when they learned of my illness, they felt the need to reach out and let me know how important I was or I am in their life.
00:50:57
Speaker
So since then, I'm practicing this advice that I just told you to spend a couple of minutes every now and then and think about what you have done and how that actually helps someone else and then appreciate it. Because it is actually quite important and we don't see our work like that. We just do and carry on and fight and then find a new area and then fight there.
00:51:26
Speaker
But sometimes you have to take time and appreciate what you do.
Closing Remarks and Gratitude
00:51:31
Speaker
Thank you so much for that. Well, I think with that question, we actually wanted to summarize our talk and that was very, very
00:51:45
Speaker
powerful words to hear from you. And yeah, I need to say I'm a little tear in my eye because that was really, really powerful. And I promise I'll sit down and write down your lessons because I think we learned so much from this recording with you. And it's really valuable. And it's something
00:52:09
Speaker
that I personally, I think, would listen back to remind me to keep going. And stories like yours are really, really inspiring. So on that note, we would really, really like to thank you for being our very first guest on our podcast. And we hope that you also enjoyed it. And we just want to express our support and gratitude towards you.
00:52:39
Speaker
Thank you so much. It was a great pleasure. And I'm just, apart from being honored, I also am so happy to see that there are these kind of initiatives across Europe and growing out of university life. So I think you are actually a great example of student life and a very good example for the future. So thank you so much.
00:53:10
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into our rule of law, the podcast. We hope today's discussion with András Leder provided valuable insights into his work at the Hungarian Helsinki Committee and showed how sometimes the best thing in life are unexpected and the importance of staying and fighting even when you have the option to leave. A special thanks to our guests for sharing their expertise. To learn more about András Leder and their work, visit the Hungarian Helsinki Committee website, which can be found in the podcast description below.
00:53:39
Speaker
Remember, your participation makes our democratic dialogue richer. We invite you to share your thoughts and continue the conversation on our social media channels under Our Rule of Law. For more resources and information about upcoming podcast episodes, visit our website at ourruleoflaw.eu. I'm Elan, and on behalf of the Our Rule of Law Foundation and the entire team, thank you for listening. Stay informed, stay engaged, and we'll see you in the next episode of Our Rule of Law, the podcast.