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Stoic Empathy – Compassion Without Burnout
3 Plays1 month ago
In this episode, I chat with Shermin Kruse. Shermin is a globally recognized negotiation consultant, law professor at Northwestern University’s Pritzker School of Law, and TEDx producer. She is the author of the recently published book Stoic Empathy: The Road Map to a Life of Influence, Self-Leadership, and Integrity. We discuss empathy and how it can be combined with Stoic resilience to help us maintain our compassion while avoiding burnout
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Transcript
Introduction to Stoicism and Guest Shermine Cruz
00:00:01
Donald Robertson
Hello and welcome to Stoicism, Philosophy is a Way of Life. My name is Donald Robertson and today's guest is Shermine Cruz. Shermine is a globally recognized negotiation consultant, law professor at Northwestern University's Pritzer School of Law and the TEDx
Empathy and Stoic Resilience
00:00:16
Donald Robertson
producer.
00:00:16
Donald Robertson
She's the author of the recently published book, Stoic Empathy, the Roadmap to a Life of Influence, Self-Leadership and Integrity. And today we'll be discussing empathy and how it can be combined with stoic resilience to help us maintain our compassion while avoiding burnout.
Shermine's Background and Philosophy Interest
00:00:34
Donald Robertson
So, Charmaine, how did you become interested in all this stuff? How did you get interested in stoicism, first of all?
00:00:41
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Oh, how did I get it interested in stoicism? Well, I would say with stoicism, it has it has been a lifelong interest. It was modeled for me when I was growing up in Iran. I was born in 77 and the revolution happened in 1979, the Islamic revolution. And then we launched into a war with Iraq in 1988. By the time I left in 88, that war had become so intense and severe that there were up to six missile attacks a day to Tehran, which is where I lived.
00:01:08
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so I grew up in the aftermath of this incredibly oppressive, patriarchal, governmental institution that had just come into power and was desperate tighten and root its hold of power while dealing with a very civilian heavy casualty conflict.
00:01:30
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And was... what was so What was really, really modeled for me almost on a daily basis was stoicism.
00:01:37
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:01:38
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And a lot of that was from my parents. And so I sort of grew up, I didn't what called back then, but I sort of grew up with this understanding that when you walk into a room, you need to have a certain level of awareness of the room and of yourself.
00:01:51
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And you need to be in control, not emotionless, but in control of yourself and as much of the room as possible in order to survive it. Because this is quite labyrinth that we have to navigate.
00:02:05
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And it requires certain level of adaptability from situation to situation. So that was really when I first became interested, although I didn't know what it was called until university.
00:02:17
Donald Robertson
So it was at university that you discovered ancient Stoicism. Is that right?
00:02:23
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yes, I studied philosophy and um neuropsychology. So i got a dual degree. Technically, it's a science degree because of the neuroscience aspect. but But really, my passion was in the philosophical aspect and and in asking the questions of why we do the things we do.
00:02:39
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
How can we do them better? How can we improve as human beings over the things that we have control over? How can we release the things we have no control over? But I was able to round that knowledge of philosophy out with the neuroscience training, which, ah you know, this was a hot minute ago.
00:02:51
Donald Robertson
Thank you.
00:02:56
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I'm pushing 50 now. So I was in university quite some time ago. And so it's been a fascinating journey updating my knowledge in that respect and consulting and interviewing with various neurologists and neuroscientists.
00:03:09
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
as I also dug further and further into stoicism after the the career, the 20-year career I had in between college and now when I write when i wrote this book.
Cognitive vs Emotional Empathy
00:03:20
Donald Robertson
So how did you end up becoming interested in empathy?
00:03:24
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
What a fascinating question. So the word empathy is a very interesting word to me, and I really became interested in the word and the concept when I began to understand how complex the concept is.
00:03:36
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Because empathy, as I've come to understand it, is really it can be subdivided. Right. There is cognitive empathy and then there is emotional empathy. And as an advocate, as an attorney, I worked as an attorney for almost 20 years. i was working for Fortune 500, Fortune 100 companies, sometimes in really, really deeply intense situations.
00:03:55
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so as an attorney, I needed to have a really, really good understanding cognitively of the judge, the client, the courtroom, the witness, the jury, right?
00:04:01
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:04:06
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I almost needed to be in a place where I was reading them, right? Empathically aware of their thoughts, their feelings, their emotions, their judgments, so that I could do my best to guide those things and influence those things.
00:04:20
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
while remaining in control of myself. So then I started thinking about, well, what type of empathy would this be? Because sometimes when we think of empathy, often when we think of empathy, we think, oh, I'm like i'm like really emotionally connected and it's your pain in my heart, right?
00:04:35
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And that's emotional empathy. But the kind of empathy we're talking about here is you're the ER doctor when they roll in the child with the seven bullet points. And you have to heal the child.
00:04:44
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:04:47
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
It is not enough to just sit and feel their pain, but you have to know where the pain is. You also have to know if it was a parent who shot them because you can't release them back into the custody of those same people after you patch up their bullet wounds.
00:05:00
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so that's the type of empathy that's cognitive empathy. Now, what's really fascinating is it's not ah it's a false dichotomy, right? It's actually a spectrum between emotional and cognitive. And then I started to think, well, how can I utilize stoicism to choose where I fall in that spectrum, to choose how emotionally connected I want to be to a particular person based on the relationship I'm in? The relationship I want to be in, right? The power position I have, what my goals are, et cetera, et cetera.
00:05:28
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So how do I do that so that I can engage in that control over my emotive state?
Healthy Forms of Empathy
00:05:33
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So that was that was where the empathy component came in for me.
00:05:37
Donald Robertson
Well, maybe we can just, maybe that provides us with a a good starting point for a little bit of analysis. And like one of the simplest questions I like to ask people when I'm discussing almost any concept under the sun. a So you might get people that say they're in favor of something and then other people that say that they're against it. And I like to say,
00:05:56
Donald Robertson
Is there maybe be a good version and a bad version of this concept? Could there be healthy and unhealthy versions of anger? Could there be good and bad approaches to democracy? Might there be helpful and unhelpful forms of empathy? And if so, what would the difference be between them?
00:06:12
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Well, this is a really fascinating question. And as ah as a lover of Stoicism, I'd love your input on this as well. The idea behind a Stoic approach is that if you're doing it correctly, your goal is wisdom, justice, right?
00:06:27
Donald Robertson
Okay. Okay.
00:06:29
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And an eventual end that is appropriate for not just you, your selfish you in that scenario, but for you as a person who holds value in a just result, right?
00:06:42
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So if you are behaving in a stoic manner, hopefully you are actually doing it right. But when it comes to the actual experience of the emotion, of course, emotions can have a negative impact and a positive impact.
00:06:57
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Look, emotions are information. They come at you, they tell you things.
00:06:59
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:07:01
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I am scared because this is a saber tooth tiger and that fear helps me run. So I don't die. It is actually extremely healthy to have that fear. But if that fear is causing me to freeze, if the information about the tiger is causing me to freeze and I get eaten, then I need to know how to act through the fear in a different manner.
00:07:19
Donald Robertson
mean
00:07:23
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Right? So that's all we're talking about here. We're talking about as these emotional inputs come into your body, as these
00:07:29
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm.
00:07:29
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
stimuli come toward you?
00:07:30
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:07:31
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
How do you exercise that judgment, that wisdom, right? So that you can act. And but we when I say just what I mean by that, in a manner that is consistent with your value system, not my job to tell you what your value system ought to be.
00:07:47
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
But I want you to respond in a manner that is consistent with your value system. and probably blowing up at the person cashing you out at the grocery store because they
Empathy vs Sympathy in Therapy
00:07:56
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
took too long might not be the person you want to be, even though it's been a really hard, long and frustrating day.
00:08:02
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So you might decide that that is not the type of person who you want to be. It's not even the person who you are, but it is how you behaved in that scenario because you allowed the stimuli to control you instead of you controlling it.
00:08:15
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
The stimuli itself is just information. So it is what it is. It's ah morally neutral. It is functionally neutral as well.
00:08:27
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so it's really all about how you utilize it and what the situation depends
00:08:32
Donald Robertson
the so ah The whole concept behind your book, I think it reminded me of something that's quite close to my heart, because in any type of counseling or psychotherapy, one of the most fundamental problems that the counselor or therapist himself has to deal with on a regular basis is the problem of empathy.
00:08:53
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
and
00:08:53
Donald Robertson
And and how to empathize with clients in a constructive way without over empathizing or and joining them in their depression or anxiety.
00:09:09
Donald Robertson
So the way that we usually make that distinction terminologically in the therapy field is to talk about the difference between empathy and sympathy. So the idea is that empathy, where we can enter into client's shoes and understand what it feels like for them to be depressed about certain things or anxious about other things, is different from sympathy, which is more like, ah in a sense, almost agreeing with them.
00:09:23
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Mm-hmm.
00:09:30
Donald Robertson
So an anxious person will say, hey, you know what if I lose my job? That would be a total catastrophe. I'd be completely overwhelmed and I wouldn't be able to deal with it. And empathy would be kind of saying, i hear you and I can imagine what that must feel like.
00:09:45
Donald Robertson
And sympathy would be like saying, oh my God, yeah, you're right. That would be a catastrophe, wouldn't it? That'd be awful. You're screwed. la hey So we don't want to agree with the client, right? And so sometimes and and tell if they're exhibiting an irrational anxiety or depression, but at the same time, and we want to be able to show that we understand.
Empathy in Understanding Adversaries
00:10:05
Donald Robertson
what they're experiencing. So I and then I realized that some form of empathy and it may be that there may be different forms of empathy suited to different situations. Some form of empathy is essential in almost any job that involves interacting with other human beings.
00:10:21
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
yes I would agree with that. And for a second, i would love for you to paradigm shift from being a person, a healer, who is responsible in a positive way for the well-being of someone, to being across the table from someone who holds ill in intent.
00:10:37
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
that That is also a thing that exists, right? Some people are bad guys and they're going to they're going to rob your house and they're going to steal your stuff and they're going to harm your kids. Those people exist in this world.
00:10:46
Donald Robertson
Yes.
00:10:48
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I'm not saying you should assume everyone is one of those people, but you should also know how to utilize empathy in your dealings with these individuals.
00:10:54
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:10:57
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
How do you, without getting emotionally connected or having any form of sympathy with this person, still understand what their motivations and where they're coming from so that you can influence them in this interaction as much as possible?
00:11:06
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:11:16
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And that's, yes, a while maintaining, while keep keeping control of your anger, keeping control of your frustration, right? Which, yeah, whereas in the therapeutic context, you're trying to keep control of your emotions in a different way.
00:11:33
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so, yeah, yeah.
00:11:33
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:11:36
Donald Robertson
Well, this is how I think about it. Sherlock Holmes didn't look at Moriarty and think, the guy's just a jerk. He's just ah iss just a bad guy.
00:11:46
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Mm-hmm.
00:11:46
Donald Robertson
He had to have some kind of cognitive empathy or understanding for his arch enemy in order to be able to figure out what his next move was going to be. And likewise, great generals
00:11:59
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
one luppus
00:12:00
Donald Robertson
have to have cognitive empathy um for their adversaries in order to be able to anticipate how the the decisions that they're going to make? Is that the kind of thing that you that you have in mind?
00:12:12
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And you can even think of it in a smaller, more physical format to help you understand to help you visualize it. And the way I like to think of it is boxing. You're in a boxing ring, The understand the better you understand your opponent.
00:12:23
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:12:24
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
the more of his throws you can thwart, or at least you can turn your head in a way that reduces the impact from 90% 10%, right? The more you can engage in right the more you can engage in it dedicated and adaptable strategy to how you're gonna deal with what's coming your way.
00:12:37
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:12:39
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
How much energy are you gonna preserve? How much effort are you gonna put in? Which way are you gonna move? What's his weak point? Also, what's his strong point? Also, what's your weak point and what's your strong point? so So just take that, but put it in an emotional context, right?
00:12:53
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And the boxing is like two friendly people, they shake hands, but really you wanna win. You don't really wanna have sympathy for the other side. You wanna play by the rules, But you want to win.
00:13:04
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
But you've got to understand this this box. You've got to understand this opponent. But you can take that exact same thing and then implement it in a parenting situation where obviously your interests are aligned with the interests of your child.
00:13:10
Donald Robertson
and
00:13:17
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Very, very different scenario.
00:13:19
Donald Robertson
Now, I guess I'm going to make a of slightly more follow philosophical, kind of an epistemological point here, right?
00:13:24
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I'm ready.
00:13:24
Donald Robertson
Which is people tend to talk about empathy as if it's something you could kind of take or leave. You know, they they might say, why would I want to empathize with these guys? But if we think of cognitive empathy,
00:13:37
Donald Robertson
as a type of understanding of the other person that's in front of us, the opposite of that would be a sort of ignorance.
00:13:45
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
yeah
00:13:46
Donald Robertson
And so then it's not just a matter of whether it be helpful or unhelpful to empathize. It's really a matter of whether you actually understand the situation that you're confronted with. a Lacking cognitive empathy for other people that you're interacting with would be like being deaf or blind or something like that.
00:14:03
Donald Robertson
You know, it would mean that you lack key knowledge or information about the the situation that you're dealing with.
00:14:09
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
It's a brilliant point. and Where my mind immediately went when you said that was back to your comment about the general and how to distinguish the general from the foot soldier.
00:14:17
Donald Robertson
and
00:14:18
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
The foot soldier is just told what he's told so that he can run into battle and get killed for the cause. The general is the one who needs to see.
00:14:31
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And it's this is the decision we get to make every day in every aspect of our lives, even just battling traffic on the way to work. We get to decide whether we are the foot soldier or the general.
00:14:43
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
How much awareness do we walk into this situation with? How much control and how much do we allow others to control that for us, right? And I'm not saying there's no place in this world for the foot soldier.
00:14:56
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
i'm I'm actually not saying that. What I am saying is that's not the way I want to live. i don't I don't want to live like that. And...
00:15:04
Donald Robertson
Well, they say knowledge is power. like Cognitive empathy would be a form of knowledge.
00:15:09
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
100 percent.
Fear of Empathy and Vulnerability
00:15:11
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
100 percent. Absolutely true. And so actually the way I structured the book is it's called Stoic Empathy.
00:15:14
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:15
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
But the first half of the book is really all about empathy. And it's so much of what you said, Donald. Let's let's define it. Let's distinguish it from sympathy and compassion. And then let's really look at the difference between emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. Right.
00:15:29
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And let's modulate how we can get better at both of these things through these practical tools.
00:15:33
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:15:34
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And then the second half of the book is about stoicism, which is
00:15:37
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:15:38
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Also, when you get punched in the face, this is how you can embrace that discomfort, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And then we use stoic tools to teach people how to, how to engage in a lot of the first part of the book.
00:15:51
Donald Robertson
that That sounds good to me. I think a lot of people need more help coping with being punched in the face. yeah
00:15:57
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I get punched. I mean, listen, yeah, life punches me.
00:15:59
Donald Robertson
ah It happens. Yeah. best address The best of us.
00:16:03
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah. It's sometimes you wish it was physical, right? I mean, some of the things that happened to you in life, sometimes you wish you had just been punched in the face.
00:16:08
Donald Robertson
Oh.
00:16:11
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Life's got a few surprises for most of us.
00:16:14
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
know Yeah.
00:16:16
Donald Robertson
So what do you think of the main misconceptions then? the you what What misconceptions do you tend to encounter ah by ah about empathy?
00:16:26
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
About empathy. Well, the main misconception I encounter about empathy is the assumption that it is an and an emotional and an emotive state.
00:16:33
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:16:33
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so, and it is, that is a type of empathy, right? So it's important for us to acknowledge, listen, you're sitting there, you're watching TV, you're watching your favorite serial that you've watched, your favorite TV show that you've watched for years. There's your favorite character.
00:16:47
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
You've adored him. You've seen him grown up from a child and he's getting in a car and he's driving it and it's sunny and and the wind is coming in and the trees are bright and there's music. And then his cell phone dings and he looks down and you immediately feel the dread in your body because, you know, something terrible is going to happen to this guy you love.
00:17:05
Donald Robertson
Okay. Okay.
00:17:05
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
and he he gets T-boned, right, by a truck. You physically recoil. You are ah a person watching a fictional character on a screen in your in your living room, and you physically respond. It's not that you feel what it's like to be T-boned by a truck, but you have a physical response to this experience that you're observing. That is emotional empathy, right?
00:17:30
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Whereas cognitive empathy I am... i am match, I am not walking in your shoes, but I am matching your steps. I'm hearing what you hear.
00:17:41
Donald Robertson
right.
00:17:41
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I'm seeing what you see. I smell what you smell, right? And all of that can help me predict which way you're going to turn. And so, and the whole range of in-betweens, right, which is this incredible place to be.
00:17:55
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And this is not a soft skill at all. It is a people skill. It is an emotional intelligence skill because it requires you to read the room and read people and also to be adaptable and to see your own blind spots so you can get past them.
00:18:10
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
But, um, but it's not a soft skill. It is a very, very hard strategic skill and it is very aligned with stoicism.
00:18:13
Donald Robertson
right
00:18:19
Donald Robertson
I wonder, I just want to throw this out there, because I want to see what your views are about it. Do you think some people do you think some people are scared of empathy?
00:18:27
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yes.
00:18:27
Donald Robertson
Like, have they ah they are they frightened of exhibiting empathy or exercising empathy?
00:18:32
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yes. I will tell you, I will tell you, it depends on the type of empathy and it depends on the emotional state because they might be afraid of vulnerability, for example.
00:18:35
Donald Robertson
that all of about?
00:18:47
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so they find themselves in a situation with someone who really loves them and is being vulnerable with them. And they have the opportunity to be vulnerable back if they wish. There's a lot they could gain.
00:18:58
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Maybe there's something they could lose. Very, very different circumstance than you're at a baseball game, right? Or you're at a soccer match. And there's a whole stadium of fans and the energy is taking control of you and you're shouting and your face is painted.
00:19:14
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Very, very different. So the same person could be absolutely terrified of vulnerability in one instance and have a great time at that.
00:19:20
Donald Robertson
Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:19:22
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
The same person could be absolutely terrified of telling their wife she's beautiful, but jump out of a plane the next day, right? It is, the reality is, is, is what stoicism is about is identifying the type of emotion that is uncomfortable for you, and then deciding rationally if that is something that would benefit you in that specific situation, and then embracing the discomfort and with courage facing that emotion if that is necessary.
00:19:51
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
If it is not, don't do it.
00:19:55
Donald Robertson
That makes me think of another question that I had in mind, which is about the relationship between empathy and a specific emotion.
Role of Anger in Empathy
00:20:03
Donald Robertson
i've got eyes on I've got my eyes on a specific emotion right now.
00:20:06
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Okay.
00:20:07
Donald Robertson
What's going on in terms of the dynamic between empathy and anger? Anger is one of my favorite subjects. i
00:20:15
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah.
00:20:16
Donald Robertson
So angry people don't always seem that empathic.
00:20:16
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah.
00:20:18
Donald Robertson
like What do you think the relationship between empathy and anger might be?
00:20:23
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I believe that, well, I know that anger can be informative, right? Your anger can alert you to an injustice, to a risk, to a danger, and it can be really informative and really useful.
00:20:36
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
What you want is you want to take the information that's being presented to you, and then you want to use that information along with all the other information that is being presented to you about the situation, the context, the person, the amount of power that you have, what you could reasonably get away with, not get away with, what would be in your best long-term interest, et cetera, et cetera.
00:20:55
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
You take all of that, but the anger also is part of it, right? And then you make an informed response, right? in between that stimuli and your response is sort of where you live, where your willpower lives.
00:21:08
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
The anger itself is just another piece of information. If you allow the anger to dominate you yeah and you become a slave to it, I can't imagine a scenario in which that would be beneficial to you, right?
00:21:13
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm.
00:21:20
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
It might be beneficial to the person who made you angry. But at the end of the day, if you want to exhibit anger, because it's the right thing, move to show that you are outraged in this situation, that might be the right thing to do, right? I mean, the world is filled with bystanders that stand by and watch as injustices occur without saying anything and feeling anything.
00:21:46
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And I cannot justify that. And I don't think stoicism would either. Right. So the idea here is this emotion is just information. The way I respond takes this information into account, but it is not dominated by it.
00:22:02
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And really, at the end of the day, if I make a mistake and I allow myself to be dominated by that anger and I walk away thinking, oh, I should have done this or I should have said that or, oh, my God, I didn't think I would lose my job if I did that.
00:22:02
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm.
00:22:17
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Right now, I can't get braces for my 14-year-old kid or whatever my life circumstances are. And if if I had really thought about it, I would have done it differently. Right. I just don't want the anger to get in the way of your decision making in a way that interferes with who it is you really want to be and how it is you really want to show up
00:22:36
Donald Robertson
What wondering is whether people who have high levels of cognitive empathy might be less susceptible to high levels of anger. It seems to me there's some element of antagonism between these two states of mind.
00:22:50
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
i I think it's a very, very interesting question. And your perspective on it is enlightening. I don't see how it could really be any other way than how you've described it.
00:23:03
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Because anger is just such a disruptive emotion, right? And so i could see how if you have a lot of cognitive empathy, that understanding far, far better allows you to control your anger.
00:23:17
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
the The follow-up question is can we ever fully be in control? Fully, right?
00:23:24
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:23:25
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so, you know, when I think of, say, a Buddhist monk getting tortured in a Chinese prison, right? They're never angry, ever. I mean, seems hard to believe, even though your entire life as a human being is dedicated to compassion, understanding, and control, and the embrace of discomfort, right?
00:23:45
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so I think, to a certain extent, we have to accept our humanity But focus on what is in our control and even our instincts, how to how to control them over time or change them over time.
00:24:02
Donald Robertson
Well, I'll tell you a little personal anecdote. You mentioned earlier that there are some bad people out there that do bad things and so on. um When I lived in London many, many years ago, decades ago, one of my first gigs as a counsellor or therapist was to work with the probation service and with a drugs project and with kids that have been socially excluded from schools.
00:24:25
Donald Robertson
And so I had some clients um who had been in prison or Boston and who sometimes done quite terrible things. And years later, people would say to me, how is it possible not to be angry?
00:24:41
Donald Robertson
with people who have committed terrible crimes and stuff. And I thought, I don't remember feeling all that angry with any of these clients that sat with that they told me about all the terrible things that they did.
00:24:53
Donald Robertson
And I um realized that there's a kind of antagonism between the role of being a counselor and therapist, the counselors and therapists in general, just don't tend to get that angry with their clients, you know, because they have to interview them in depth and put themselves in their shoes and try to understand why they did the terrible things that they did.
00:25:13
Donald Robertson
So setting aside the moral question of whether it's a good idea, it might be helpful to get angry with these people. There's something about the role of being a therapist and counsellor that seems to be antagonistic to that.
00:25:25
Donald Robertson
You know, people people who work like that in depth with these sort of clients don't usually feel angry with them.
00:25:25
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
ah
00:25:32
Donald Robertson
They might feel kind of sorry for them a bit.
Empathy Modulated by Roles
00:25:34
Donald Robertson
they You know, they might feel well high levels of of empathy.
00:25:35
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah.
00:25:37
Donald Robertson
They might still really condemn their actions, but they tend not to get very angry with their clients.
00:25:42
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah.
00:25:45
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So it's a very interesting point because really what we're talking about now is where you target your outrage, not not the lack of awareness of the outrage itself, right?
00:25:56
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
It is horrible when a child is raped, right?
00:26:00
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm.
00:26:00
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And the idea, if I were to like really think about the person sitting in front of me engaging in the rape of a child,
00:26:00
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm.
00:26:07
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
That would ah arouse anger in me, but maybe I don't direct that anger toward them. Maybe that anger is and is an emotion that is informing me about the injustice of that particular act.
00:26:18
Donald Robertson
the
00:26:19
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Here are all of the other things that make up this individual, and my job for today isn't to judge that act. It would be if I was on the jury. But my job today as the healer is not to judge that act.
00:26:32
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
but it's okay if I find it abhorrible, right?
00:26:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:26:36
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
It's okay if the thought of kids getting raped arouses emotion in me. That's okay.
00:26:41
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:26:42
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I just don't want to direct it towards this client because this would not be helpful in the situation that I am in. It is not the job that I have. And some people might decide they don't want that job because they don't want to control themselves in that way.
00:26:59
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And they want maybe... They had a child who was assaulted and they have no interest in helping. Other people might decide they do. This is their salvation or whatever it might be. Right.
00:27:10
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
These are the paths that you can choose for yourself. I have a really, really hard time telling people how to morally behave in a particular situation. i just I just want people to be more intentional in how they behave in that situation.
00:27:23
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
If you're going in as a leader, as an interpreter, as an intermediate, as a mediator, right?
00:27:23
Donald Robertson
Thank you.
00:27:29
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Your role is very different than if you're going in as an advocate. And your role is also very different than if you're going in as a judge or jury. And these are all roles that we play in our society that we need to, play we need to, they need to exist.
00:27:42
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Just be intentional, be aware and do right by yourself, your values and the role that you want to play in that scenario.
00:27:51
Donald Robertson
The other question I wanted to ask you about your book is to what extent do you draw on existing models of empathy? and And to what extent do you differ from them? like Do you think they're you know they're limited?
00:28:05
Donald Robertson
how So what's ah what's your perspective in relation, I guess, to the they they established science in this area?
00:28:12
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah. So think it's important to understand the science. I think it's and important to understand the mirror neuron system. I think it's important to understand the way in which other people's emotions affect our emotions and affect our dopamine levels and affect our serotonin levels and affects our oxytocin levels and affect our, you know, it's, it's, I think it's really, really important to have an understanding of that so that you can, your, that awareness in and of itself can give you more, more control.
00:28:38
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Um, I don't have a problem with any of the models. that The main model I focus on is strategic empathy, right? So the idea is let's just recognize the spectrum of empathy and work on being strategic in how we exercise our empathy in a particular situation.
00:28:45
Donald Robertson
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:56
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:28:56
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Because if I'm not the ER doctor healing the child that has been rolled in with bullet points, but I am that child's mother, right? I should be having a very different experience than the ah ER doctor, right? There's something about that that makes intuitive sense.
00:29:14
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So the reality is I don't have a problem with either form. I just want you to be appropriate for whatever situation you're in. Because, dude, if you're the yeah ER doctor and you're behaving like the mother, that kid's going to die on your table.
00:29:26
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And would like that not to happen, right? Especially for the mother who's grieving in the room. So that's what I would say. I would say just ah just proceed in that manner.
00:29:38
Donald Robertson
Yeah. You're describing in a way as a form of self-awareness or so in order to be strategic, ah about our use of a mental state like empathy, we need something that psychologists call metacognition or metacognitive awareness, a type of self-awareness.
00:29:52
Donald Robertson
So you'd need to, we'd need to notice, are we being empathic? What sort of empathy are we exhibiting? And how appropriate is it, given our role and the circumstances that we we find ourselves in?
00:30:05
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Well, I loved your earlier example of Sherlock Holmes, because if we act the role of the detective, not just vis-a-vis the other, but also vis-a-vis ourselves, and really think of it as, listen, my job in this situation is to pull the curtain and see what's on the other side, even if the things I'm hiding are on the other side.
00:30:05
Donald Robertson
Well,
00:30:15
Donald Robertson
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
00:30:25
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And that's scary. I mean, it really, for me, sometimes it's dark and it it can be really terrifying. to engage in that analysis. And I might not be able to do it as fully as hope maybe I can in 10 years.
00:30:38
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I'm doing it better than I was doing it 10 years ago. And yeah that is my goal.
00:30:43
Donald Robertson
So some people are going to look at your book and they're going to think they're going to do a double take. They're going to think stoic empathy. That's like oil and water or something. So stoicism and ah i an empathy don't mix.
00:30:56
Donald Robertson
I think that's the popular, ah maybe that's a popular misconception, right? So I think a lot of people are going to so think that seems kind of paradoxical at first. What is the relationship in your mind between stoicism and empathy? And and how how can they be combined?
00:31:12
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Okay. Yes, I do think people will see it as paradoxical. I think that's primarily because of people's misunderstanding of stoicism as ah emotional suppression, right?
00:31:23
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Whereas stoicism is probably much more what you do, which is cognitive ah psychology, right? It's like behavioral cognitive psychology. It is emotional regulation.
00:31:34
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
right? That is what it is. So if we, if we have a a basic understanding of that and de-bro-acize the ideas of stoicism, it's not about being tough and strong and not feeling anything.
00:31:46
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
It is about a different kind of strength, the strength that allows you to actually feel things if they would benefit you and get over the feeling, right? And deal with the feeling.
00:31:56
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so what word?
00:31:57
Donald Robertson
Is that a word that you just made up?
00:32:00
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Bro-ism? Bro-ism?
00:32:02
Donald Robertson
Debroisize.
00:32:03
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Deep bro-a-cise?
00:32:05
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:32:06
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah. Yeah, I guess it is.
00:32:07
Donald Robertson
i second
00:32:08
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I take credit.
00:32:08
Donald Robertson
That's a good one.
00:32:10
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah.
00:32:10
Donald Robertson
Okay, I'll credit you when I use it.
00:32:12
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
If you put that a dictionary, give me ah give me a little mention in the footnote.
00:32:12
Donald Robertson
i
00:32:16
Donald Robertson
So people's misunderstanding of stoicism, you know, they think of it as... emotional suppression or something like that. And actually it's more like a forerunner of of cognitive psychology and cognitive therapy.
00:32:29
Donald Robertson
So that limits them in terms of their understanding. i mean, Marcus Aurelius, for example, who says very clearly, and we should try and enter into the minds of other people in order to understand them. He straight up describes putting himself in in the shoes of other people.
00:32:43
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah.
00:32:43
Donald Robertson
um And kindness actually is one of the main virtues in Stoicism.
00:32:45
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And.
00:32:47
Donald Robertson
the some you know There's a bit of a translation problem with emotional language from ancient Greek to modern English, but they consistently refer to some sort of kindness or compassion as being one of the virtues in Stoicism.
00:32:53
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I agree.
00:33:00
Donald Robertson
Marcus Aurelius in particular is really concerned about ah cultivating this kind of pro-social attitude towards people and an ability to understand them accurately.
00:33:12
Donald Robertson
in order to live in harmony with them, and so on. So that's an integral part of what he means by stoicism. um how do you Do you think stoicism in some ways could actually facilitate empathy?
00:33:24
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
100%, depending on the type of empathy.
00:33:26
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm.
00:33:27
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I actually think stoicism could also heighten your emotional experiences.
00:33:31
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm.
00:33:31
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I can choose, right? In fact, sometimes in deep meditation, I do choose to heighten my connection, to hear things I couldn't otherwise hear, the birds in the background, the sound of the wind rustling through the leaves, right?
00:33:36
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm.
00:33:44
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
The footsteps of my child upstairs running around. pitter-patter, pitter-patter, pitter-patter. And I can attune to that. And my control over myself can actually allow me to fully experience the joy, the love, and the gratitude just maybe a second longer.
00:34:03
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Maybe five seconds longer. I mean, I can gain an incredible benefit from that.
00:34:08
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:34:09
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Right. And so just as it could help me control my anger it can and direct my anger, it can also help me direct and control my joy, my gratitude and all of the positive things that are that are good for me.
00:34:23
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
in a particular situation. So I think that it is incredibly important. I absolutely agree with your point about the the misunderstanding of emotion words from ancient Greek to to modern English.
Stoicism in Emotion Control Practices
00:34:34
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I especially, the word passion, I think is deeply understood as it's used in in the way the Greeks talked about passion because they primarily meant anger and loss of control.
00:34:44
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Whereas when we talk about passion, that is not necessarily what we mean at all. We could mean a passionate embrace. The Greeks had zero problems with passionate embrace. ah they tell
00:34:53
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:34:56
Donald Robertson
That's fair to say. Yeah.
00:34:57
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah, yeah. Very, very good at passionate embrace those Greeks. Yeah. So I think it's, we need to be very, very mindful and cognizant of that language when we are, when we're looking at this. And that's why teachers like you, Donald, are so important because you help provide that roadmap for folks as they go towards stoicism so that what they're learning is to be true stoics and not just emotionally stunted, you know, ignorant adults walking around.
00:35:23
Donald Robertson
Now, we've talked a bit about the concepts that underlie your book. I wonder if we could segue a bit into the practices that you recommend or tools, your toolbox.
00:35:35
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yes.
00:35:35
Donald Robertson
Would you like to share some of the the tools in your toolbox with our our listeners? What do you recommend people actually do if they want to maintain healthy empathy and compassion for other people?
00:35:48
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
yeah Yeah. So actually the bulk of the book is that really it is, it is tools. It is a variety of meditations, exercises, examples, things that you could do practices, et cetera,
00:35:56
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:36:01
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
and in order to improve each individual skill as I go through them in the book. it is It is probably less philosophical than even the discussion we had today and much more practical. All of the philosophy underlies it, but but really it's about how do I get there?
00:36:15
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:36:16
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
How do I do that, right? So for instance, in the section that, in the second half of the book, we work a lot with stoic tools such as discomfort, embracing,
00:36:27
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
habituation, right? One of my favorite stoic tools is memento mori.
00:36:28
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:36:32
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And I, one of the practices I teach is writing your own obituary, for example. That is a practice I teach a lot of the clients that I work with, because the idea is if you sit down and write the obituary that you want to have, what do you want it to say when you die, right?
00:36:47
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And then you compare it to the obituary you would get if people were being honest, if you were to die right now, that informs you a great deal. And it really allows you in a particular situation to see the entire vision and image of your life and not just that momentary idiot who cut in front of you in traffic.
00:36:55
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:37:01
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:37:05
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Right. And it gives you an incredible perspective. ah The other tool that I mentioned is discomfort embracing. it it i I love giving people exercises for this because think it's really, really important if you are accustomed to getting punched in the face already, right?
00:37:22
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Move on to the thing you're not accustomed to
00:37:26
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:37:26
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
It's not enough to just keep getting punched in the face. That is one thing that you have conquered that you have dealt with. Now I want you to work on compassion or joy or gratitude or presence or whatever it might be that is making you uncomfortable, but that you believe will benefit you in your life, in your relationships. Not because I said so or Donald said so.
00:37:49
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
but because you believe it, right? So those are the sorts. And then so I teach a variety of meditations, a variety of journaling exercises, in order to assist you, yes, with those things. And in fact, the audio book actually has a few meditations that we can do together. and Yeah.
00:38:05
Donald Robertson
Well, tell us a little bit more if you don't mind about, say, let's start with the journaling then. What what kind of journaling exercises do you have?
00:38:12
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah. so depending, ah first, I want you to try to identify the purpose of your of your journaling exercise. I want you to try to try to move that curtain and look at what it is that you need to gain, right?
00:38:27
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
What is the particular skill or the particular emotion or the particular type of confrontation, right?
00:38:31
Donald Robertson
Right. And
00:38:35
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And then I give you four or five different ideas as to what those might be, and then the prompts will change depending on that. So if you're trying to deal with anger, for example, your journaling prompts are going to be very different than if you are someone who is uncomfortable with compassion.
00:38:52
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So like one of the people I love most in this world, my husband, he's a really good person, really, really good person, highly moral person, a great virtue and value. And it makes them uncomfortable to be around people who are a lot less fortunate than him and provide them with a service.
00:39:09
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I think honestly, it comes from a place of guilt for him, but it just makes him, he just doesn't want to, he'll cut the check and he loves that I do it, but he doesn't want to go serve the homeless, right?
00:39:09
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:39:19
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And then sit down and talk to them. That makes me uncomfortable. Why does that make you uncomfortable? Is that something you're okay with? So first identify that, right? And the journaling can certainly help you do that.
00:39:30
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So can the exposure, right? The more you go, if you decide that it's something you do want to get more comfortable with, right? And then certain kinds of meditations can also help you, certain forms of understanding.
00:39:41
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so there's a lot of sort of breaking down of what is it that I am missing me as an individual person, And how can I supplement that through this tool? And then how do I modify it to fit my particular path?
00:39:55
Donald Robertson
what are your favorite types of meditation?
00:39:58
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
My favorite meditation type is, i have two. One of them is what I call a sound meditation. And I don't know that it's the same as how people, other people talk about sound meditation.
00:40:09
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I like to do sound meditation with my kids. And the way I think of sound meditation is literally just tuning into the sounds around you. So often we'll do this, I mean, if we're walking to a school, for example, we'll take one minute or two minutes as we walk to just listen.
00:40:15
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:40:25
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And when you do, you pick up on so much stimuli around you that was there minute ago and you were unaware of it. That form of meditation really works for kids, especially if you make a game out of it.
00:40:41
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
How many birds can you hear? How many cars will go by. How many kids are in the distance, right? That form of meditation works really well for kids who are very easily cognitively distracted.
00:40:54
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So that's my favorite one to do with kids or for myself if I'm in a really, really tight spot and having a difficult time focusing my mind. The other that I actually really love is the mindfulness meditation.
00:41:07
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And for me, this is, i am pouring the cereal into the bowl I pay attention to every aspect of pouring cereal into the bowl, the position of my hand, the juxtaposition of the counter, the sound of the flakes as they fall in, right?
00:41:24
Donald Robertson
Okay. Okay. Okay.
00:41:26
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And the way that it makes me feel to provide that cereal to a hungry child, for example. right? I try to focus on every aspect of that. I'm not a transcendental meditator. My dad's a transcendental meditator. Some monk gave him his mantra when he was 18, like about 55 years ago in Iran.
00:41:46
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So it's super, he's he, and he does it all the time. it It's not, it's not the type I usually use. So almost all of mine are guided and mindfulness. um But I do also highly recommend tuning into sound um And then from there, graduating to touch, tuning into touch.
00:42:05
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And then from there, graduating to smell. If you can really start to focus on things other than your eyesight, in other words.
00:42:14
Donald Robertson
Now, the next question I've got for you, I guess, is is a big one. <unk>s so It's a serious one, I guess. Now, I don't know if you've noticed this, but the world is chock full of suffering and injustice.
00:42:32
Donald Robertson
I mean, there's a lot of it on TV, as we all know, but that's the tip of the iceberg. And we all kind of know this. We're not confronted with it on a daily basis. like Sometimes we're just thinking about what we're for dinner or so. it you know We're watching TV or something like that.
00:42:48
Donald Robertson
um But at some level, we're all aware that the world is chock full of injustice and s suffering. hi and stoic How can stoicism in and empathy, or how can stoic empathy,
00:43:01
Donald Robertson
help us to face all the injustice and suffering in the world without either, on the one hand, that guess there's two extreme responses. Either we just shut down completely and kind of ignore it and bury, like the the ostrich or the emu that buries its head in the sand response to avoidance. Avoidance is the world's number one favourite coping strategy, I reckon. and Or number two, we freak out i completely.
00:43:27
Donald Robertson
The Stoics clearly don't want us to either bury our head in the sand or freak out. There's got to be a ah via media. There has be some kind of other option. How could stoic empathy help us to find a third way, an alternative way to respond to the overwhelming injustice and suffering that we see in the world around us?
00:43:44
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I mean, i could have literally talked about this for the entire hour that we were chatting. Donald, this is an it is a big question. It it is a very complex question. I agree that we can start with what we know.
00:43:58
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
What we know is ignorance is not bliss. We know that, right?
00:44:01
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:44:02
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Lack of awareness, burying our head in the sand. What we also know is catastrophizing every situation to the point of empathy collapse, where we no longer even have the capacity to feel because we are so overspent and over-exhausted and over-tired, is not the path.
00:44:20
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
We also know that we have immediate primary responsibilities. I am responsible not just toward the world or my country or my city, but also toward my animals, my children, right? So I have to be able to function in a manner that also serves them while having this awareness and responsibility towards the rest of the world.
00:44:40
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And if I'm not functioning in that manner, I am not meeting that obligation, right? So it's important for me to prioritize that. So I think for me, I always go back to what I know, what is true, right?
00:44:52
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And then as I come into what is true, I start thinking about what is beyond my control, And that dichotomy of control that the Stoics talk about, right? What aspects of this are things that I can control today, right?
00:45:06
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And one of them might be my emotional response to it. And I just think that's actually really, really important to avoid that that that collapse and to respond in a manner that keeps you informed.
00:45:20
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Stalin said that and million deaths is a statistic. One death is a tragedy. The guy knew what he was talking about. The reality is, if we are focused on young Syrian child washed up on the shores of Turkey with a blue shirt and red socks, that allows us to feel compassion in a very different way than the statistic of X million Syrians or X hundred thousand Syrians, et cetera, et cetera, right?
00:45:51
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And so our awareness towards how we understand information how we interpret information and also how others understand that interpretive way information should inform us on how we communicate, how we listen, what we say, when we say it.
00:46:11
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And in in a manner that that I think is very in line with cognitive ah cognitive behavioral practices, I also think you should allow yourself moments of sorrow and outrage
Navigating Global Suffering Awareness
00:46:25
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I think it's okay.
00:46:25
Donald Robertson
Thank you.
00:46:26
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I recently lost someone very, very dear to me. Very, very dear. I have never lost anybody this close to me before. This is the biggest loss experience I've ever had. I carried the coffin type of loss, right?
00:46:38
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And I need to grieve for this, right? That is not a catastrophization. That is an appropriate response. But I also still need to be emotionally present for my kids.
00:46:51
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Not just feed them. but be emotionally present for them, right? And so maybe I allow myself a certain period of time every day to just sit with my grief and journal my thoughts, right?
00:47:03
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
But the rest of the day, if I find it interfering with my value system and what my obligations are that day that I hold to be true of me, I move on.
00:47:13
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:47:15
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I release it, right? So I think at the end of the day, it is, we know, what is right. we we we we know We might not know the entire landscape of everything that is right and wrong, but there's things we know.
00:47:29
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Come back to what you know. Come back to what you can control. Okay? Come back to what you know to be right in a particular situation and start there and then try as best you can to see the whole vision, not just the injustice and the sorrow, but also all the helpers and the heroes
00:47:46
Donald Robertson
right.
00:47:51
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
and the mothers, and the fathers, right? And it is extraordinary amount of love, joy, happiness, and courage in this world. There really is. It's all around us. We observe it every day.
00:48:04
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So if we attune ourselves to seeing both sides of that coin, both the dark and the light, we will better be able to maneuver our emotional responses to it, and better able to lead, to guide, not just our children, our teams, but also ourselves toward the right path.
00:48:26
Donald Robertson
Well, I have one final question for you, which is just if you have any other practical tips that you could give to our listeners based on your experience and your work in this book and your research in this area, what else would you advise them to do in order to cultivate appropriate empathy and stoic resilience in their daily lives?
Advice on Cultivating Empathy and Resilience
00:48:53
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Yeah. So we talked about a few of the stoic tools that I recommend. If we go back to the empathy aspect, how do we how do we become more aware of the people around us?
00:48:57
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:49:02
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Right. How do we gather more information? One tip that I like to give, especially when I'm short on time, is listen to tone. Not just other people's tone, but your tone.
00:49:13
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Sound is really, really important. And I feel like sometimes we slave over the words. You know, you said this or I said that, but it was really how you said it and how I said it that matters, right? So one of the people one of the things I really want people to do is to focus on controlling their tone.
00:49:27
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
If I say, my name is Shermin and I like chocolate and I teach at Northwestern, I'm communicating something very different than if I say, my name is Shermin. I like chocolate.
00:49:38
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I teach at Northwestern. It's a different level of power just based on a downward versus upward inflection. But it's also little bit less welcoming. And so it depending on the scenario, might choose to go up, and I might choose to go down, and I won't know how to control it unless I've practiced controlling it.
00:49:58
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
So I would say pay attention to your tone. It'll also allow you to read the tones of others. I also would say take the opportunity every single time you can in a negotiation or in a confrontation or in or in any kind of a situation where there is a counterpart to engage in establishing a baseline.
00:50:20
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
And what I mean by that is think about a lie detector test. When you have a lie detector test, they ask you baseline questions, spell your, say and spell your name, where do you live? How old are you? Whatever, like the things they know you're going to say correctly.
00:50:32
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Why? Because they need to establish your neurological baseline. how your heart rate, your blood pressure responds to questions that are the baseline. Establish your baseline for people.
00:50:43
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Everyone's baseline is different, right? And if you're able to engage in sufficient conversation to establish the baseline, it is far easier to see the divergences and therefore far easier to tell when someone is lying or afraid or anxious or hiding something, right?
00:51:02
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Because you have already established that baseline. Take the time to do it. And remember, their baseline is going to be different than your baseline, right? And go in with that detective mentality.
00:51:16
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
I am here to solve this right now. I take my knowledge with me, but not my judgments.
00:51:25
Donald Robertson
Fantastic. Well, I think that's been another great discussion. and thank you very much for joining me, Shermaine.
00:51:30
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Thank you. was fun.
00:51:33
Donald Robertson
It was fun. It was fun. We hope that you, our listeners, enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. ah Please share the link with your friends and subscribe to the Stoicism Philosophy is a Way of Life newsletter on Substack for more podcasts and articles on philosophy and psychology.
00:51:48
Donald Robertson
Thanks for listening. It's goodbye from me, Donald Robertson, and from my guest, Shermaine Cruz.
00:51:54
Shermin (Sher) Kruse
Bye guys. Nice to meet you.
00:51:55
Donald Robertson
Bye, everyone.