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00:00:01
Politically In Circus Part 2 with Martin Frenette- Circuspreneur Podcast
29 Plays3 months ago
#Circuspreneur #CircusPodcast #CircusArts #CreativeEconomy #ArtsPolicy #CulturalPolicy #ArtistAdvocacy #CreativeWorkers #CircusIndustry #LiveEntertainment
In Part Two of our deep-dive with Martin Frenette, we continue exploring how politics, policy, and public systems directly shape the circus world—onstage and behind the scenes. From immigration pathways and artist visas to funding gaps, safety standards, and the future of creative-economy legislation, this episode breaks down the real issues affecting circus artists, producers, companies, and communities today.
Martin brings his thoughtful perspective as both an artist and industry professional and together we unpack what it truly means for circus to operate within political, economic, and cultural structures—whether we talk about touring realities, local arts ecosystems, international collaboration, or how performers can become stronger advocates for themselves.
If you’re a circus professional, creative worker, policymaker, or simply curious about how the industry moves, this conversation offers clarity, strategy, and vision for the future of circus in America and beyond.
👉 Watch now and join the movement to elevate circus as a recognized, protected, and thriving creative sector.
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Transcript
Introduction to Circuspreneur Podcast
00:00:02
Circuspreneur Podcast
Welcome to the Circuspreneur podcast sponsored by SageLink.com where creativity meets advocacy and the business of circus is reimagined. I'm your host, Shanae Saletto, world champion acrobat artist and unapologetic believer that circus belongs not just on the stage, but at the decision-making table and joining me back.
00:00:23
Circuspreneur Podcast
for round two of politically in circus. I think we're staying with that for now. Is someone again who knows circus from the inside out, artist, creator, and fellow circus savant, Martin Frenet. Welcome back, Martin.
00:00:37
Martin Frenette
Thank you for having me back. It is honor to be once again invited in this world of yours. It is a great discussion that people haven't even heard when we started before today.
00:00:50
Martin Frenette
So let's have a chat, shall we? Let's discuss the world. Yeah.
00:00:55
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes, the world.
Role of Circus in Civic Spaces
00:00:56
Circuspreneur Podcast
And, you know, together we are asking the real questions. What happens when circus artists step into civic spaces? How does movement become a message and can balancing on our hands help us better balance policy? And so, again, this is just not about performing anymore. It's about representation and it's about bringing the story of circus into the rooms where laws are written and futures are shaped. So,
00:01:24
Circuspreneur Podcast
You know, there is it's been a it's been a couple of weeks since our last conversation and interaction, Martin. And so is there anything high on your list to bring into our civic or political conversation or public forum conversation today?
00:01:42
Martin Frenette
I would just like to start with I was listening to an interview that the chairman of the Democratic National Committee committee was given to ABC News and he was saying how the Democrats are not like dreaming or aiming for a way for the midtimes.
00:01:59
Martin Frenette
he said, like, we need to work for it. We need to make changes and we need to understand the message we got in 2024. And he said one of the big problems the whole country had, not only Democrats, but like Republicans and the whole country, the politicians, was saying, what is wrong? What is the problem?
00:02:17
Martin Frenette
And for example, he mentioned Yes, the border is an issue. Immigration is issue. However, instead of just closing the borders, we need to come up with a clear immigration and policy that allows people to create paths to immigration and citizenship.
00:02:38
Martin Frenette
That was my quote of the week was, yeah, we need to create, to have a immigration policy that allows people to create paths to citizenship instead of spending so much time saying, oh, immigrants are X or Y or instead of putting out a problem of the border, having a solution. That would be what a change, what an focusing on a solution, not just on a problem. Yes, people.
00:03:06
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes, a solution. i mean, wild, wild proposition there. I cannot believe you would dare to suggest a solution to a problem. I would just rather continuing to speak about it all over the place as that problem that's
Immigration Challenges in Circus Industry
00:03:21
Circuspreneur Podcast
unsolvable. And I mean, you know, immigration is actually a huge conversation in our industry because we are an industry of immigrants.
00:03:30
Circuspreneur Podcast
We are.
00:03:30
Martin Frenette
huh
00:03:31
Circuspreneur Podcast
We are all immigrating at any one point in time into any country. We come, we infiltrate, we settle in, if we perform, and then sometimes we bid you adieu.
00:03:45
Martin Frenette
Yeah.
00:03:45
Circuspreneur Podcast
Never to return again. It was like we were never there, but we speak about it as if we've been there forever. That's how we speak in the circus, folks. Even if I've been there for a month, it's like I've lived there all my life.
00:04:03
Martin Frenette
There might be a head of chalk left in the wings because of your cane or something.
00:04:09
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah, just a little residue.
00:04:11
Martin Frenette
Yeah. Or some glitter on a table wall, yeah.
00:04:14
Circuspreneur Podcast
little...
00:04:18
Circuspreneur Podcast
Some slight patterning, little bit of, you know, thread. Something to remember us by. But I mean, you know, so many folks in so many artists in our business, in our circus industry, you know, they come on working visas. That's a really, you know, big topic for us. Again, how to have an easier pathway to citizenship when you are an artist and as a performer. I mean, so many of us hear that conversation and we're in it on a consistent basis, right? Because it's not easy to do.
00:04:50
Circuspreneur Podcast
It's expensive. It's costly and it's challenging. On the road to maybe gaining citizenship, you could lose your visa because the show closes. And suddenly you've lost access to that visa. The company does not have to keep it open for you. And so unless you can get another job,
00:05:09
Circuspreneur Podcast
get another company to get you a visa if you're in America, because again, we are coming back to this folks. We are being American specific, but we will also branch out into the e EU and other neighboring spaces. Obviously, what I'm saying is that, you know, artists, we immigrate into all different parts of the world. So that's a very, you know, important thing.
00:05:28
Circuspreneur Podcast
task. We know about what's happening in spaces like that, again, before I think a lot of the rest of the world does, because we know when requirements change and shift, because we're going to apply for things to get that next job or to get that next gig, even if you're going for a day or two, or even if somebody doesn't want you to be there in the way that is registered. i wouldn't say lawful, that's a very strong word. But, you know, for example, if you're going on a wonderful vacation, someone just asks you to break out in hand balancing, that happens a lot. That
Risk-taking: Politics vs. Circus
00:06:02
Circuspreneur Podcast
happens a lot. Would you like to come to this five-star resort? chipp Just come and you may or may not do some hand balancing.
00:06:10
Martin Frenette
It may just happen between two meals. i'll just make a one-arm, please. Just, you know, while you're here. Yeah.
00:06:18
Circuspreneur Podcast
Right, there may or may not be an audience.
00:06:18
Martin Frenette
But I think... I think, like, you said it really well, when you're like, oh, it's costly and complicated. Well, brings us back as well to just people that are, in some cases, what are I know really well of Americans and Canadians that are temporary workers that come...
00:06:37
Martin Frenette
there for short-term employment, but it's costly and complicated to get hired. And then they start building a life and then like time goes on and it's just they stay in the country, but then the employer doesn't take care of the visa, the whole legal thing, and then they have a life and are being shown the exit door. you like So we I really hope immigration policy can be a real thing on the agenda for 2026, seven, eight,
00:07:07
Martin Frenette
forty four
00:07:09
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes, exactly. And I mean, even just the other day, too, I was reading about citizen confirmation ceremonies that are, you know, that are being canceled, like while they're happening. And that is such a special thing.
00:07:24
Circuspreneur Podcast
special ceremony to have here in America.
00:07:25
Martin Frenette
Uh-huh.
00:07:26
Circuspreneur Podcast
I have so many friends as circus artists and that have had their ceremonies to become American citizens and they've worked here and they've made their lives here like what you said.
00:07:37
Circuspreneur Podcast
And I can't imagine If that, you know, would have happened to someone that I know, and maybe it will actually happen to someone that we both know at this point in time, because again, it's it's happening to everyone. Like at this point, everyone is kind of fair game. And I think that would just be absolutely soul crushing to know the folks that, you know, we know that have worked very hard.
00:08:00
Circuspreneur Podcast
to get where they're going, that have gone through these processes, that have done everything that they're that they're that they're supposed to do. And also two things that are just can happen against you that are and not under your control. You're doing every single thing by the book. And then suddenly you have a situation where you're not able to keep the requirements that you fought really hard to have. because something no longer supports you in terms of what happens to a company or, or whatever you're connected to an organization. It could be so many variety of things. So, you know, just keeping, you know, that in our awareness that that is a very big topic for our industry, and how it's shaped where we can all go to work. Uh, if you're blocked from going certain countries to work, if you're blocked from coming into America, how that shifts our workforce here.
00:08:50
Circuspreneur Podcast
in the circus and then with the difficulties that different companies will be facing in terms of who they can hire, what kind of budgets they need to support different levels of artists and the complications that just kind of surround that. Can they get the people that they need from productions, whether it's in country or, you know, having that kind of like diverse network of artists that a company traditionally has in the circus because that's what we are built on. That's what we're made of. So I think that is a really good note to to to mention. And I think we will pivot to a couple of our questions. We've got some new questions this time around, folks. And if you have some questions that you'd like for me and Martin to tackle in an upcoming episode, please let us know. You can DM the Circuspreneur podcast And we are we are very responsive there. And we'd would love to get your comments and see what we can answer in real time. So let me see here. Do you think that circus people have a different sense of risk than politicians? And how does that change how we view political instability? I think that speaks directly to what you were talking about in terms of immigration policy.
00:10:03
Martin Frenette
It really does. And i do believe, I'm going to say when it comes to artists, obviously what we do is not to make a funny world play here, but like it is a risky business.
00:10:17
Martin Frenette
Like sometimes our lives hang by a thread, by a wire, by a rope, by our own hands.
00:10:18
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah.
00:10:25
Martin Frenette
So from the get go, it is a risk. And as you said, oh, like you get a call to go in this show in Bulgaria for a month. Never been to Bulgaria.
00:10:37
Martin Frenette
All I have this email saying I have a contract. Who knows going to happen? But at the same time, we need to pay bills, put it on the table, and to just make a living.
00:10:49
Martin Frenette
Therefore, I think we are more likely to take those risks and to just say, yes, some jobs that are maybe not perfect.
00:10:49
Circuspreneur Podcast
Bye.
00:10:57
Martin Frenette
But we also, I think, want to experiment. And the beauty of this industry is that we get to perform in very different like different countries and shows and concepts. So definitely I would say there is a risk. And when it comes to our politicians, I believe there is a lack of...
00:11:19
Martin Frenette
I mean, with the great parallel here. I think artists, we take risks for the audience. We want to impress them, obviously, when it comes to being on stage.
00:11:30
Martin Frenette
add think politicians need to take risks while listening to the audience. I do believe...
00:11:38
Circuspreneur Podcast
While in office. Sorry. just
00:11:40
Martin Frenette
Yes! Because I do...
00:11:41
Circuspreneur Podcast
While in the position.
00:11:43
Martin Frenette
But actually, there's a wait there's there's a straight line here. You know yourself, when you're on stage and you hear, when you go into a move and you hear the audience sometimes even gasp or you feel them freezing. and Okay, I need to hold this a bit longer or I need to look at them.
00:12:01
Martin Frenette
I think when it comes to taking risks, even from the politicians' side, they should be more aware of what their audience, in this case the voters, are telling them and how they're reacting.
00:12:13
Martin Frenette
I do feel in the last few years politicians have been allowed into, oh, let's make action, let's sign these documents and let pass legislations
00:12:26
Martin Frenette
without really taking the pulse from populations and is this just what's best for me or what's best for my country or i think the risk for them is only oh am I going to lose my seat in congress or wherever it is where should be no I won't take a risk for the good of my country and of my voters and of They're the population, basically. That's where we are now.
00:12:55
Martin Frenette
Let's start taking risks the same way that we do for an audience, to get them to react and to be amazed and have, hopefully, beautiful moment. Politicians need to take to take risks now for the good of their audience as well, to get a good response from them.
00:13:11
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes.
00:13:12
Martin Frenette
Yes.
00:13:13
Circuspreneur Podcast
So yeah, to get a good response to them. And then I think it's interesting, and you hear this a lot right now and in kind of like media, where we just had the quote unquote, like
Media's Influence on Circus and Politics
00:13:22
Circuspreneur Podcast
blue wave. And so that is a big conversation right now of will the Democrats harness that blue wave? Like what you're saying, are you recognizing the audience and their response to that and leaning into that for that standing ovation?
00:13:37
Martin Frenette
Mm-hmm.
00:13:38
Circuspreneur Podcast
Or are you, quote unquote, what recent political moment felt like the biggest drop ball moment of the year? And i think we can speak to the, maybe the government shutdown in that way.
00:13:51
Circuspreneur Podcast
For some have said that after that blue wave, the government shut down seemed like it was the biggest drop ball of the year. Do you agree, Martin? Yeah.
00:14:05
Martin Frenette
i do but not the way you think i believe
00:14:08
Martin Frenette
i believe the big drop though came from the news cycle from media because
00:14:08
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah.
00:14:08
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:14:14
Circuspreneur Podcast
e
00:14:15
Martin Frenette
my issue right now with the newspapers and like the reporters of the world i feel they're focusing on getting like clickbaits and like the o m g and o
00:14:29
Martin Frenette
like let's be enraged about what president said or what governor did or what as opposed to for instance when there was a shutdown why weren't there more pieces on farmers or on employers and producers saying or even just families that now don't have insurance or can't feed their people properly or have lost half their employees the whole focus was on Democrats blaming Republicans
00:15:01
Martin Frenette
Republicans, Democrats, and Trump's ballroom. And I was like, could we please stop talking about what Trump is making to the White House or to what text message went to whoever?
00:15:18
Martin Frenette
And because like the shutdown was really affecting the people.
00:15:18
Circuspreneur Podcast
I mean, yeah, like, I mean,
00:15:25
Martin Frenette
Why weren't the news people the reporters and the news anchors going on the field and talking, because I do feel he's not a god, he's not perfect, but someone like Zalan Mamdani, who won the mayor position in New York, really went out there on the field, met people, discussed with them.
00:15:45
Martin Frenette
he Now he has to do the job, obviously, in the next few years and to show that he's, like, put your money, your might you matter where your money is. But... I think he showed a great example of reaching out, asking, talking, reaching.
00:16:00
Martin Frenette
And during shutdown, i felt it was all about, yeah, the ballroom and the gold wing and the, like
00:16:07
Circuspreneur Podcast
I mean, we love a ballroom, right? We're a circus artists. So when people bring up the ballroom, I'm like, that's not fair, right? Like that's like, that's our space. That's where we, that's where we thrive. So a ballroom, what great, awesome, wonderful.
00:16:21
Circuspreneur Podcast
In addition to the White House, right. And just like, you know, constantly consistently talking about that. i mean, like, you know, we we we have to speak to that because that is like one of our, you know, our our spaces. That's what we do.
00:16:32
Circuspreneur Podcast
But yeah, I think in the course of the sensationalism, which is what I think that you're speaking to, you know, we know what that feels like because circus gets sensationalized. And we usually only get sensationalized when things go wrong in our industry, right?
00:16:44
Martin Frenette
Yes! Someone dropped in France from the top of the...
00:16:48
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes.
00:16:50
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes. Yes. Someone, oh my gosh, we have to do this thing. And now we're all outraged against the circus. And there was, a you know, an animal that was potentially connected there.
00:17:02
Circuspreneur Podcast
And we have to. And so we only hear, people only get that kind of feedback about the circus. So I think when we see sensationalism in politics, we totally get that as an industry of like, you're not looking at the fine print of an industry or of an environment when you're doing that.
00:17:12
Martin Frenette
Mm hmm. Hmm.
00:17:19
Circuspreneur Podcast
right? You're not really speaking to anyone that is truly working within that. And you're just looking at very, like, you know, i think painting it with a very broad brush of what the solution is.
00:17:31
Circuspreneur Podcast
Oh, now we're going to do this one thing in this one environment. And that is the action that we're going to take. And we're not going to speak to anybody else that's relevant to that industry or to that fight or things that are also really important, like the families or like the farmers.
00:17:44
Martin Frenette
There.
00:17:44
Circuspreneur Podcast
Speaking to the farmers, it's cowboy Christmas right now here in in Vegas. So There are a ton of farmers and cowboys here. and I just want to say this as well, someone that works and, you know, I go to DC a lot. Those farmers are in legislative offices and lobbying for themselves Day in and day out.
00:18:04
Circuspreneur Podcast
Every time I go there, there's a lot of, you know, lovely cowboys there with their big hats and they are just lined up doing their due diligence. And I will remind the industry, if that were us, not necessarily have to come in your circus best, however.
00:18:18
Martin Frenette
So
00:18:19
Circuspreneur Podcast
yeah if they could see us lined up out of these offices of people that are, again, making these decisions, how much we could influence and change. They are there every single day. And Cowboy Christmas is quite fun. And they go to all the shows and they're in the audiences and they're lovely. And they're very, they're very sweet people.
00:18:42
Circuspreneur Podcast
And they do a lot of photos. I have to just, you know, do a little bit of a plug there. But, you know, i think, In terms of, you know, looking at the overall spectrum of an environment and how you communicate about it really matters. And you can miss the important nuance and the people that really need the support and help kind of get lost in that shuffle, which is, you know, why i think it's important to advocate specifically for our industry and the way that we are doing or having these conversations because we are highlighting the nuance that gets lost when you are like not the headline. I saw this article the other day that was published by the New York Times. I have not dipped into it and read it yet, but it said like, looking at the circus, looking at the art scene right now, it seems like the circus is back.
00:19:29
Circuspreneur Podcast
And I thought, that's interesting headline.
00:19:30
Martin Frenette
When were we gone?
00:19:33
Circuspreneur Podcast
When have we ever left? Yeah. And what are the themes within that article? And are they anything that's really relevant to how we're experiencing our industry
Innovation and AI in Circus Industry
00:19:48
Circuspreneur Podcast
right now? And do they connect to the larger picture that's established around the country?
00:19:54
Circuspreneur Podcast
Like, Do they do that? Because I don't usually ever read that when I read these big ticket articles and they include our name. I mean, it's always nice to see our name not being you used as a ridicule, right?
00:20:07
Martin Frenette
Uh-huh.
00:20:07
Circuspreneur Podcast
However, I usually find that they lose me within the first few lines of like, okay, this is kind of like a fluff piece. It's not, maybe it is advertising and it's using them circus specific language, but it's not dialing in two things that are much more relevant that intersect or affect our industry.
00:20:29
Circuspreneur Podcast
So I don't know if you saw that article and what do you think? do you have feelings about that?
00:20:35
Martin Frenette
No, but I'm going to look it up, obviously. Now that you, but I will look it up for sure. But I think in terms of when you say like the circus is back, I would say that maybe now the audience, it's been a while since like Caterpillar Circus came around, but now believe the audience is a bit more educated and are seeing more circus and are more
00:20:59
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:21:00
Martin Frenette
drawn to it. Therefore, I think there's maybe even pressure to produce better content. And we're talking before the episode about now AI happening and the whole like artificial intelligence.
00:21:12
Martin Frenette
But... there is still something about quality performance and a polished act. And as said before, like just the way someone look at you, s smile at you from the stage, or how precise they trim their costume and how delicately they will grab their trapeze or take their balls or...
00:21:33
Martin Frenette
I think when you say the circus is back, maybe in terms of quality and diversity, there are now obviously in Germany, you should know now since the end of Vemba, it's Christmas circus almost at every corner, like every street, it's like every single village has a Christmas circus.
00:21:51
Circuspreneur Podcast
yes
00:21:56
Martin Frenette
So for us in Germany, it is true. We have, the circus is back until March.
00:21:59
Circuspreneur Podcast
Thank you.
00:22:02
Martin Frenette
Well, I think it's in January for some cases, but like some shows run until March. They make Christmas last a long time. Most of them are done by January 4th or 5th, but a lot of them still go like the dinner shows until March.
00:22:14
Martin Frenette
So for us, it is back. And even like i was talking with some people that have attended some of these already winter shows. And because some of them I've seen some the last five, six, seven years, now I've become a bit of of judges I'm saying, oh, well, last year the actor better or... or This year it was little extra something.
00:22:34
Circuspreneur Podcast
Thank you.
00:22:35
Martin Frenette
I think the audience is getting more educated the same way that now people have more expectations when they are going to a movie theater as opposed to just sitting at home and streaming on Netflix. In a good way, people are getting more knowledgeable about circus. so it's Maybe it is back in a good way. yeah
00:22:55
Circuspreneur Podcast
I love the expectations that you were speaking of about how it gets like bigger and bigger. And it's also, I think, a nice, you know, thing for, you know, I think traditional companies to keep in mind, right? That the same formula is not going to be what gets audiences to show up, right? People are...
00:23:13
Circuspreneur Podcast
much more intelligent office audiences, I think, that companies sometimes give them credit for. I've heard people that have seen, you know, that they've been circus enthusiasts or they just really enjoy the circus over the years.
00:23:25
Circuspreneur Podcast
And the things that they say back to me, I'm like, you literally sound like someone who has worked in this industry and they have no connection. They're they're purely just love circus and, you know, but not even overtly so.
00:23:37
Circuspreneur Podcast
You know there's some people that are like super fans.
00:23:38
Martin Frenette
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:23:39
Circuspreneur Podcast
I wouldn't even call them super fans. And they're like, oh yeah. I remember when I saw this company, you know, 10 or 15 years ago. And they're like, yeah, the cycle of like what I'm seeing right now just seems kind of inauthentic and it seems very formulaic.
00:23:52
Circuspreneur Podcast
And and I'm like, whoa. How did you pick up on that? They're like, oh, and they're using this one discipline so much. And I'm like, wow, that's really amazing. So, you know, yeah, we get a lot of feedback. And I think that it's worthy that we listen to that.
00:24:04
Circuspreneur Podcast
I i also like that you slipped in the AI aspect of, you know, the circuits conversation, because we've seen, we were speaking to this, you know, off the podcast right before we started about how there's like AI actors now.
00:24:16
Circuspreneur Podcast
And how we and imagine that there's going to now start to be AI circus performers. And, you know, I won't say names, but there's been more than, I think, more than maybe one company, but maybe just one that has discussed how they're moving away from live entertainment.
00:24:29
Circuspreneur Podcast
So, you know, and these are some big characters in our industry that have said that. And so what does that mean? Right? f Unfortunately, you know, I hope that that doesn't go into ai performers, but you know, that, that might be, people will say net right now, no, never.
00:24:47
Circuspreneur Podcast
But now again, you know, the unions, the, the film and TV unions are having to deal with these AI actors getting jobs, AI models that are getting jobs over models. And you know, what's not to say that they eventually find a way to break through. and so then now,
00:25:04
Circuspreneur Podcast
They're creating media because they are're they are saying that they're moving away from live entertainment. This is their words, not ours, right? And these are these are circus companies. So what is to stop them from, again, just using the AI space to create these these performers and these acts and these full-blown circus shows that people will consume via media?
00:25:24
Circuspreneur Podcast
I mean, Netflix is now trying to buy Warner Brothers. And what has Netflix accomplished in terms of how people view film and TV.
00:25:34
Circuspreneur Podcast
They've gotten people to stop going to the movies. They've gotten people to stop showing up places in person. So, you know, speaking to also to Netflix is incredibly innovative, but we're also to speaking from live entertainment and performers.
00:25:46
Circuspreneur Podcast
One of the big things that we need is for people to show up and be willing to leave their house to absorb our content, unless you're going to pay us, which, you know, i don't know, you know, in terms of how you're going to get, you know, full on shows.
00:25:46
Martin Frenette
Mm-hmm.
00:25:59
Circuspreneur Podcast
We saw a little bit of that in the pandemic. It's wonderful shows started going in person and also virtual at the same time, but we still want people to show up. That is what we are. And that's the breadth of our industry. So there's a lot of different implications right now, especially if spaces that have been kind of like defining these environments where folks do not are not compelled, they can just spend a little bit of money and they can stay in the comfort of their own home to consume what we do. So I don't think that it's far-fetched to imagine that that could happen. It's just what are the solutions and the policies and preventions that folks are going to start setting up instead of just talking about innovation, innovation, innovation. It's like, where is the protection, protection, protection? Because we as the artists will lose out the most, just like the actors in Hollywood are going to be the ones that lose out the most. And the models are also too, the ones that are losing out the most because The companies, the agencies, all of those folks can recoup and figure out ways to pivot and make money. How do we continue to keep our jobs and our careers intact if we're dealing with that?
00:27:04
Martin Frenette
Totally, but I love how you were saying that the innovation, innovation, innovation. Because before I was listening to an interview with a great TV producer from Canada, who was saying as a producer, once she gets a pitch, and for three pages, all she reads we're going to innovate, we're going to reinvent the genre, we're going to innovate, we're going It's like, that's great.
00:27:14
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:27:27
Martin Frenette
But I need to know how. And going back to our now lovely leaders, I feel in the last year or so, it's been a lot about, even going back to the campaign, like for the last elections, whether it was general or midterms or mayorship, like a lot of these elections, lot these speeches have been out.
00:27:47
Martin Frenette
We're going to make change. We're going to make, well, go the famous, and I won't say it, but like, we're going to, yeah, make change. We're going to change. We're going change. And how?
00:28:00
Martin Frenette
Because I do believe that is what it's like now. I think a lot of attention has been put on the problems and our leaders have been very vocal about what they don't like from other party or even other countries.
00:28:16
Martin Frenette
Now we'd like to hear solutions and clear yeah policies and what will you bring to table? I do not care about a blue or red or purple or green wave.
00:28:28
Martin Frenette
I want to know what is going to come with this wave.
00:28:28
Circuspreneur Podcast
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:28:32
Martin Frenette
What will allow us to maybe have a boat to ride that wave actually and a sink?
00:28:40
Circuspreneur Podcast
Well, you know, you actually answered the question that I was going to ask you next. I actually think you answered that because I was going to ask, why does this why does the circus community have something to say, have something important to say about democracy right now? Not just, yeah, that's an interesting question that we have. Why does the circus community have something important to say about democracy right now? And I feel like that was a really good way of saying why the circus community has something important to say right now, like in terms of just innovation for innovation's sake.
00:29:09
Circuspreneur Podcast
hungry what actual how is that going to affect me on my daily life? We see a lot of that because sometimes the policies and the projections, and we're coming down to the last few minutes of our podcast here, Martin, but that also makes me want to pivot into the recent decision in Ireland to give a certain few artists the universal basic basic income statement
00:29:29
Martin Frenette
Yes.
Artist Support Systems in Europe
00:29:33
Circuspreneur Podcast
For artists, it's a select group that has to win a lottery, but it's still a win. And then the eu just is now creating an artist charter.
00:29:38
Martin Frenette
Mm-hmm.
00:29:42
Circuspreneur Podcast
And they were recently taking comments, which we submitted to them. The comments that we felt could reflect the industry and the support because there is, you know, the circus is like this.
00:29:47
Martin Frenette
Mm-hmm.
00:29:53
Circuspreneur Podcast
So you can't speak about EU circus politics without speaking about the American circus politics that feed into that and intersect, right? They all kind of go hand in hand. But again, yeah.
00:30:15
Circuspreneur Podcast
I'm not sure what status it's in at this particular time, but you had at a point in time in France where you could work a certain number of days in the year. And then that would give you your artist's
00:30:26
Martin Frenette
Oh, it still exists. It still goes on.
00:30:27
Circuspreneur Podcast
basic income.
00:30:27
Martin Frenette
It's been 20 something years.
00:30:28
Circuspreneur Podcast
And it's, so it's it's, it's still there.
00:30:29
Martin Frenette
It's yeah.
00:30:30
Circuspreneur Podcast
I heard that they have tweaked it. not so long ago,
00:30:32
Martin Frenette
that They always do, but it's alive. Yeah.
00:30:35
Circuspreneur Podcast
Okay. but it's But it's alive and well, because i I always talk about it. And so I think it's a you know a really great example. I've also spoken about how you can kind of like abuse that system and why people you know have argued in some ways how it can be abusive and harnessed by spaces to not pay performers adequately for their work because they're like, hey, you're getting this universal basic income.
00:30:50
Martin Frenette
Yeah.
00:30:55
Circuspreneur Podcast
You've already met your quota of days for the year. Now we will hire you for like 10% of what we would have paid you before and we'll give you free food and you have a place to stay while you work at the circus.
00:31:00
Martin Frenette
Mm-hmm.
00:31:04
Circuspreneur Podcast
And people are like, that shows you how it can be taken advantage of on both ends, right? It's not just like that the companies would exploit. It's also the artists leaning into and and being like, okay, like we'll take it or we'll do that.
00:31:15
Circuspreneur Podcast
We'll just make sure we get to what we need and then we don't have to try to do more. So I always like to bring up all the arguments that I hear from multiple sides because always think that's very relevant because there's going to be a lot of narratives surrounding something that is also seen as and deemed as being very, very good.
00:31:31
Circuspreneur Podcast
But most folks that are speaking about the whole Ireland thing, which I think is an amazing win, is that it doesn't go far enough because it doesn't include enough artists. It doesn't include every single artist and that it is a lottery. So you are chosen and that they would like to see it on mass, which is something that I think will, will happen, but they felt like they did the exploratory phase and then they went towards the lottery. And they said, after you've done the exploratory phase, we feel like that's when you could open it up to the entire country. and it should no longer be a lottery. So What are your thoughts about that? And that's how we're going to close out the show. i definitely think that's something that we need here in America. I think that it's something that we could also too just use en masse. There are so many different arguments around the fact that so many of the systems that are set up in place now were never set up without the thought of using a you universal basic income. So I always think that's really fascinating when you go through the dynamics of how things came to be, you'll find that the people that originated them were like, oh, we only created that concept
00:32:26
Circuspreneur Podcast
With the addition of universal basic income, we never created that concept, imagining that people would be able to live that concept without having a supplemental income and still being able to have their professions and work very hard and live their lives. It would be impossible theory to imagine it working or operating without that. So I think it's interesting when folks sometimes take that context out of certain things. And when I've learned that afterwards, I'm like, oh, wow, well, that's fascinating. And that's, that's unfair because that has led to a lot of suffering because you're missing a very important component with that policy.
00:33:01
Circuspreneur Podcast
So to lead us out, Martin, thoughts on the artist, universal basic income.
00:33:07
Martin Frenette
Well, I think Ireland was actually really smart. They didn't go, okay, for for all, all artists can apply, go for it. Like, no, let's make a lottery like a pilot for a new TV show. Let's see how it goes. what are the ratings like? And...
00:33:22
Martin Frenette
Also, well, if there are problems with only, let's say, 500 people, then we can correct it and adjust and pivot.
00:33:23
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:33:32
Martin Frenette
And then we'll have 500 more. and like so i think it's smart And also the thing I loved when I was reading an article about the whole thing, they were saying how we need to acknowledge that artists...
00:33:43
Martin Frenette
do not only work two hours a night on stage. like We need to acknowledge, like as you and I and somebody do, we have our artistic administration hours. We spend hours a day on the computer or making phone calls. And they were saying artists are working all day long, whether it is training, creating, reaching out,
00:34:03
Martin Frenette
Promoting, we're seeing how digital media is a big thing. So I think the great thing about this universal like salary and like this income is that it will actually show us and show the world being an artist is a full-time job.
00:34:18
Martin Frenette
And we don't get paid to go on casting on our auditions or to just like, oh, even like some shows, you'd like a tryout period, like oh they will hire you for a short time.
00:34:30
Martin Frenette
it's not a full salary. So I think it is a great first step.
00:34:31
Circuspreneur Podcast
Thanks.
00:34:33
Martin Frenette
And I do appreciate being here in Europe for these acknowledgements. For instance, here in Germany, getting health insurance if you're unemployed, I mean, not fully employed, but you don't have an actual employer,
00:34:48
Martin Frenette
is a challenge. However, they created also years ago, it's been around forever, there is this organization that basically acts, they act as your employer.
00:34:59
Martin Frenette
It's like the artists' social health insurance fund, I don't know, in English it would be hard to find, it's a very German word, but basically they cover what an employer would cover for an employee.
00:35:13
Circuspreneur Podcast
Thank you.
00:35:16
Martin Frenette
and you pay the rest. Same way, an employee has to pay part of his health insurance and therefore makes the best of the rest. So here to see this and to see how like, I know you're doing the same in the US, or and at like the advocacy for, you are fighting to see circus as an art form.
00:35:33
Martin Frenette
It is seen as art form here in Germany and in France, in the mid-year country. So I think Ireland going forward with this universal income, acknowledging the work we do all day long, not only on stage, is a very important set of hope more countries will follow, really, yeah.
00:35:51
Circuspreneur Podcast
Well, and I imagine, you know, Ireland, get ready because we're all moving there. Everyone get ready. Now we're all moving to Ireland. That's how the circus rolls. That's how we roll.
00:36:02
Circuspreneur Podcast
We find a place that's doing well by us. We we move there en masse. I mean, you see what happened in Finland. I mean, Finland was like the place to be for a minute. And I mean, it still is because the amount of benefits that they offer.
00:36:13
Circuspreneur Podcast
I think, you know, people will be really... surprised when they hear a certain country, and they're like, wow, that's a really big circus demographic there. I'm like, yeah, have you seen the benefits?
00:36:20
Martin Frenette
Yes.
00:36:21
Circuspreneur Podcast
And have you seen the support that we get as a real industry? And I think that's what we are trying to continue to communicate. It's not that we're asking for all of these extra special treatments.
00:36:31
Circuspreneur Podcast
We're just asking for the fundamentals that they are the basics that
00:36:32
Martin Frenette
Basics.
00:36:34
Circuspreneur Podcast
every other industry has that people don't realize we get shut out of those things, right? We get the lax health insurance. We have the same career and we're making, you know, same amount of income, but we're just locked out of even applying or getting approved just by saying we are circus performers. And there's no way around that because don't worry, they will figure out what you do. I have, we have all tried. yeah Like, oh, I do something similar, but not that. And they're like, we know we know what you're doing and know you've been denied. I mean, as someone who has been a career professional, both of us, for entire lives, the challenges that we face of getting denied, of not getting approved for things that regular people in normal industries get approved for and do not have to worry about day in, day out. And then it flows. forces us into doing things that are supplemental as well, that are also environments that are not really made for us and not really made for you know our demographics.
Advocacy for Circus Performers
00:37:29
Circuspreneur Podcast
So it is a challenge, one that we are all pursuing direct solutions for. Like you were saying, Martin, I just want to close out this episode by discussing. We can discuss and speak and wax philosophical all day long, folks. But if we do not get solution oriented, which we have been working to do, and then you push for those solutions en masse, doesn't need to necessarily happen like legislatively. You can push and move a lot of people in your direction by not getting a policy pass. They can just make those changes, but you have to be collectively unified in a goal and across those same themes. Choose one, pick one.
00:38:06
Martin Frenette
Yeah.
00:38:06
Circuspreneur Podcast
It's important and it works. And it happens. And like I said, we're all going to be taking a vacation to Ireland soon. I'll see you there, Martin. And I hope to see the rest of the industry there too. And so we are going to close out this episode with this Circus Preneur podcast is also available on stagelink.com. S-T-A-G-E-L-Y-N-C a g e l y n c dot c o m The groundbreaking new platform for live performing arts that provides unmatched access and connection to this vibrant world of shows and entertainment. If you're a professional in the performing arts, visit stagelink.com slash pro.
00:38:36
Circuspreneur Podcast
StageLink Pro, S-T-A-G-E-L-Y-N-C-P-R-O, offers industry professionals higher visibility, networking opportunities, and tools to support and enhance their careers. Until next time, everyone, I'm your host, Shanae Stiletto. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Circuspreneur podcast and my fabulous guest, Martin Frenad in Politically in Circus.