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Jess Kyle: How Communication, Empathy, and Trust Transform Data Work
41 Plays19 days ago
Jess Kyle, a Data Engineering Leader with 13 years of experience across startups and enterprises, joined Yuliia to share her mission of making data work more enjoyable for everyone involved. As a leader of a data engineering team at a sports betting company, Jess shared how transparent communication can transform team dynamics and stakeholder relationships. In her work she challenges the common notion of "soft skills" in data, emphasizing that communication is a hard skill that should be screened for in interviews. Jess provides practical insights on managing overwhelm, delivering difficult feedback, and emphasizes why empathy and humility are the two most crucial qualities for data leaders - even though they're often undervalued in the tech industry.
Jess's linkedin page - linkedin.com/in/jesskyle
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Transcript
Introduction to Jess Kyle's Experience
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, everyone. ah It's Yollet Quechor from Streated Talk, and today I'm happy to host Jess Kyle. Jess, why won't you jump in, introduce yourself, and then I'll brief everyone. Why are we going to be talking today? Great. Thanks for having me. So I'm Jess. um I have about 13 years of experience as a data professional.
00:00:27
Speaker
My background's mostly in BI analytics and data architecture. um Most recently, I'm leading the data engineering team at a fantasy sports and sports betting company.
00:00:42
Speaker
and through my years working in data, working with you know different types of stakeholders at all levels of leadership in the companies that I've worked at. And you know this is companies big and small, startups, big corporations, kind of everything in between.
Mission: Enjoyable Workplaces for Data Professionals
00:01:00
Speaker
I started noticing themes,
00:01:05
Speaker
things that would get in the way of being as productive as we could be, things that actually Drained the joy out of the work, you know things that are Not hard to get right but that You know just I guess maybe a lack of leadership on the part or sorry a lack of awareness on the part of some of the leadership um and so as times gone on I have really tried to I guess collect these stories and these
00:01:38
Speaker
like lessons, I guess, that I've learned. And I'm kind of on a mission now where I love working with data, always going to be passionate about data, but really what is giving me energy right now is figuring out how to make work more enjoyable and better for the human beings that are involved in, you know, producing these data products, as well as their stakeholders. um I want I really, really want to make work better for everyone. And I and i think that that involves you know working on ourselves. So working through any personal difficulties we have that are keeping us from being able to show up to interpersonal interactions in a way that helps us thrive and helps drive progress at our companies.
Overcoming Communication Barriers in Teams
00:02:27
Speaker
But it's also helping people push for positive change at the companies that they're working for.
00:02:33
Speaker
So, you know, that's kind of like the stuff that I do on the side. um But by day, yeah, leading the data engineering team at this ah sports betting company. Okay, beautiful. Thank you so much for introducing us. I'm just going to brief our audience that we had a couple of brief chats with Jess and we were talking about what kept data teams back in our experience. and We were talking about different situations ah that that were challenging at work, where we couldn't ship something. and First of all, what we realized is difficulties in communication comes from both sides, from leadership and from teammates.
00:03:29
Speaker
And, you know, there are different teams set up and we all, I believe every data professional had something weird in their job. And, you know, there could be like a toxical environment toxic toxic environment, or there it could be one person who just draws the team back and so on and so forth. And just to show that everything could be resolved through the communication. Two ways. So you emphasize how important is transparent communication.
00:04:15
Speaker
what What do you, like, how do you, can you elaborate? Like we all, you know, communicate. What do you see as a transparent communication and what is not a transparent communication as big as basic as this?
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah, um so to me, transparent communication, it's more than just talking about the project that you're doing. you know Obviously, we have to talk about the projects. We have to gather the requirements and understand the use case and all all that stuff that we do as data professionals.
Addressing Stakeholder Dynamics and Needs
00:04:50
Speaker
But what I don't think that we always do a good job of is communicating when, you know, maybe our team is already overloaded and we really can't take this on right now, but we don't feel comfortable saying that. So we do.
00:05:07
Speaker
you know, we do the ah the fake yes, right? Like, oh yeah, totally. And then we kind of like put it in the backlog and just hope they forget to ask about it. And time goes on. And then like maybe four weeks later, they're like, hey, remember that thing you were going to do for us? And it's like, oh yeah, let me, you know, we have to do all these like dances.
00:05:26
Speaker
instead of just directly saying the things. So that's one example. um Another example is, you know if I think this happens a lot with with data professionals is a stakeholder will ask you for something.
00:05:44
Speaker
they have a specific idea in their mind about what they want. Let's just, for example, let's just take a report, right? There's some operational report a stakeholder wants. They have in their mind, they know, you know, okay, I want it to look like this. I want these columns. I want these values.
00:06:00
Speaker
And a lot of times we operate as a data restaurant, right? Like we're taking orders, you know, like we're right we're writing it down on our ticket. We're going to the kitchen or the database, right? And then we're serving it up. There you go. Here's your order. And how many of us know that feeling when the response from the stakeholder is like, well, this isn't what I ordered.
00:06:25
Speaker
The steak is undercooked. but you know like This isn't how I thought it was going to look. And it'll be it might be exactly what they asked for. but they don't they're not data professionals. We are the experts, right? And so just plain communication is taking that order, going and doing the thing and bringing it back. Transparent communication is when you actually partner with your stakeholder and and say, OK, I'm hearing you ask for these things, but what's the problem you're trying to solve? When you get this data, what are you going to do with it? What's the action you're hoping to be able to take?
00:07:03
Speaker
Because a lot of times if you can get your stakeholder, and excuse me, if you can get your stakeholder talking about the underlying need, You learn a whole lot about about what's really going on, like what their pain points are, what the problem is that they're trying to solve. And you, based on your experience and your expertise with analysis and reporting, can then say, well, actually, based on what you're trying to do, what if we tried this other thing?
00:07:33
Speaker
you know i'm you're asking for this, but I think you're gonna find that it's gonna be limited in X, Y, and Z ways,
Strategies for Effective Stakeholder Communication
00:07:40
Speaker
right? So being transparent means not being afraid to push back and say, you know, or I mean, in some cases, this really works best if you have rapport and trust with your stakeholders, which is another element of transparent communication that I'll get into in a minute. But if you have that rapport and trust,
00:07:59
Speaker
you know There might be times where you have to say, this is not this is not um a compelling business reason to do this. like What you're asking for is a ton of data. It is going to cost this much money every time you hit refresh on that dashboard. you know Can you tell me what the business case is for doing this? like It's up to us to push our stakeholders to be really intentional and specific, ah because like everything has a cost, right? yeah like And depending on you know if you use BigQuery, AWS, Snowflake, whatever, um everything has a cost. And yeah every time you crunch data, every time you hit refresh on the dashboard, that's a cost. And a lot of times when you lay that cost out for stakeholders, they're like, oh, oh, well, I didn't know it was gonna be like that. I don't really need it that bad. I was just curious.
00:08:53
Speaker
I was just curious is so often the reason cited for so many requests. And my personal opinion is like, we should be providing some type of self-serve like sandbox, for example, and give stakeholders the freedom to go in and like, you know, do kind of do things on their own. To answer those, I'm just curious questions, right?
00:09:21
Speaker
it's a waste It's not the highest and best use of our time to just churn out reports because someone's curious, unless there's an action they know they can take or an answer they're trying to get to.
Balancing Assertiveness and Communication Skills
00:09:35
Speaker
And we can partner with them and help them do that. But transparent communication means saying, I don't think that what you're asking for is actually the best way to get to the solution you're after.
00:09:44
Speaker
um right oh ah wages ah This is what I have to say, because this is triggers so many emotions, you know, and questions in me, like, is let's I wrote down and and I'm going to start. So first one, but how do you not, do not come across as assertive?
00:10:07
Speaker
um when when saying this, because it very much depends on the leadership and how they position themselves, and dynamics and organization. That that could sound very assertive. Sure. Yeah, this is first. And second, the person, you know, working with data engineers, and you truly work with them enough too, in your career, this is not the yeah the most, how do I say,
00:10:39
Speaker
they are more likely to be very much to themselves. as in introverts, I mean, and sometimes for them it could be easier just to make happen this silly request than just leave me alone because like it's sometimes it's extra for them to come out and you know, challenge these stakeholders, asking them questions, what business ah business issue we're trying to solve here and so on and so forth. So yeah, I think it's,
00:11:15
Speaker
Yeah, how do you how do you manage around those two aspects? Well, that's that's one of the struggles, right? Of being, especially in, so, you know, there's like the data pipeline kind of at the at the right side of it you have BI, you know, kind of those stakeholder facing the people who are interacting with the end users, right? And as you move shift left through that pipeline, you get upset data engineering who in a lot of cases are really kind of insulated from the rest of the business.
00:11:47
Speaker
um And a lot of times we find ourselves in the middle. We're getting crunched from both sides. We're getting crunched from stakeholders because they have these demands and these needs and we feel pressure to meet those needs. We're getting crunched from data engineering because they have demands and needs related to managing resources because it's their job to make sure that we're using our resources effectively and appropriately.
00:12:12
Speaker
So we're kind of in the middle. And this is why communication is so, so, so important um in this role. I hear it referred to as soft skills a lot. I i fully disagree. i I think communication is a hard skill. It is a necessary, like you should be screening for that in your interview process.
00:12:35
Speaker
if someone cannot communicate and build rapport with people and build trust rapidly, they're not the right person for the job.
Managing Complex Data Requests
00:12:43
Speaker
And so, okay, yeah, I know you're gonna wanna dig in there.
00:12:47
Speaker
No, no, no. The question is that this is the necessary skill for any employee. Sure. It's not like just for data people. like If the person cannot convey their message, that's it, period. It doesn't matter how much how how good they are at their job. you know Yeah.
00:13:07
Speaker
there but a data engineer, they're not really interfacing with stakeholders that often. If they don't know how to communicate or build trust with stakeholders, like big deal. As long as they can develop an efficient pipeline, you know they can sit in their corner and do their thing, and ah many data engineers are happy to do that.
00:13:28
Speaker
you know There's lots of rules like that. Data is very intersectional in the sense that everyone in the company needs data to do their job. All roads lead to data. right And so as a data professional, in many cases, you're working with stakeholders from across the company. You really have the opportunity to understand the business the problems, the culture, the challenges, like ah everything. You have an opportunity to understand that and ah at a depth that a lot of people in the company are not going to be afforded because you're in this role. And so it's a privilege and a responsibility.
00:14:08
Speaker
And so it is imperative that we work on these communication skills. So the first question you asked was about coming across as assertive. So I personally don't think that it's bad to come across as assertive. I think coming across as aggressive or combative is not what we want. Okay, yeah but you should not be afraid to assert yourself because you are the expert. And as long as you're being kind and respectful and how you're delivering that message,
00:14:38
Speaker
You know, for example, I once had a stakeholder ask me for, he wanted a a lot of data modeled in a way that, I'm trying not to be too specific here. Okay, okay. Basically what he was asking for was going to be a gigantic table with over a thousand columns,
00:15:03
Speaker
that he wanted run several times a day. And we're talking like every time it would run, it would process like four terabytes of data. Lovely. Which is very expensive, right? um And it it i i had there was so there was a lot of back and forth on it. I wanted to understand the problem he was trying to solve. I asked a lot of questions like, what are you trying to get to with this? How are you going to use this data?
00:15:30
Speaker
Do we already have something that might get us halfway there? You know that you can use in the meantime while we figure out a better approach um Ultimately You know it it turned out that there was a legitimate business case for it but I calculated the price tag on it and it was basically gonna be like over a thousand dollars every time we were in the load and that's That's just loading the table. That's not even talking about querying it, right? And so loading. That's just loading the table. That's just transforming and getting it in the table. That's not even touching querying it. And so you can imagine that this is like a very resource-intensive ask. And I mean, yeah, i did I was quite assertive about it. And I said, now, this was someone that I had already built a relationship with.
00:16:28
Speaker
So I'll get into relationship management and stuff in a second, but this was someone I had already built a relationship with. This person knew that I know what I'm doing and I know what I'm talking about and I'm not going to just come, I'm not just going to come to the table and say no, just to say no and feel powerful, right? Like if I'm.
00:16:45
Speaker
If I'm pushing back, it's because I've done the research to know why we shouldn't do this. Or at least you know maybe it's not my job to say we shouldn't do this, but at least I can say, if we do this, here's going to be the impact. right And so I asked a lot of questions, understood the use case, and finally um came back. you know I researched what it would cost, all the stuff. Came back to the table and said, OK.
00:17:11
Speaker
We can do this if this is a priority for the business, but if we do this, it's going to cost at least a thousand dollars every time we run it. And it's, that's in addition to whatever costs we incur from people querying it. And it's a huge table and you're wanting a lot of people to use it. So you can imagine this is going to cost a lot of money. Um, also it is incredibly complicated to develop and it's going to take four to six weeks to get done. Because at the time, we only had one person who could work on it.
00:17:45
Speaker
And the stakeholder said, well, i you know I need it like next week. And I said, well, I hear you. and I wish that I could make that happen. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. So I can do it for you. It's going to be this timeline, and it's going to be this cost. And if if you feel good about that, then we can move forward in that direction. But if not, then we should.
00:18:11
Speaker
find a different solution or figure out if there's another way that we can solve this problem. So ultimately, we ended up doing it and and it. And it did. It took six weeks. And it was OK because I had set that expectation up front. Transparent communication. Always under-promise and over-deliver. Hot tip.
00:18:36
Speaker
But I had set that expectation up front, and as I went through the development process, I was giving him constant update.
Navigating the Demands of Data Roles
00:18:44
Speaker
Here's where I'm at on this. I think we're still on track. If I ran into a stumbling block or something that could potentially throw us off track, my experience is that stakeholders can be really, really reasonable if they don't feel like they're in the dark about what's going on. When they feel like what you're doing is a black box and they have no idea how things are progressing or like, are we on track? When can I expect this?
00:19:07
Speaker
That's when they start freaking out. it like It feels uneasy as a stakeholder if you're waiting on something and you have no idea how it's progressing. And so then it's like, do I bug them? do i you know How often should I check in? so So we have to take it upon ourselves.
00:19:23
Speaker
to be proactively communicating early and often. Here's how it's going. Here's the progress I've made. um If you have a prototype or something they can look at, here's something that I sketched out as I'm thinking about how to develop this. are Am I on the right track here? Here's how I think this can help solve your problem. Always want to stay aligned. That can save so much time and wasted work.
00:19:47
Speaker
Well, just as much as a love, which we're saying, but like also practical calculating, practically asking questions, what are you using right now, practically understanding the business use case and, and you know, interviewing your stakeholder or the person who requested this, um you know,
00:20:13
Speaker
And plus to that, taking leadership and communicating is basically taking the leadership of this project in the end of the day. um It combines product management, project management, ah data data scale you know data ah data management skills, and lots of, let's say you know,
00:20:39
Speaker
other skills as well. And the question is, aren't we demanding too much?
00:20:47
Speaker
I don't think so. Well, this is the ideal picture. Right. Would you describe him, but it also could be overwhelming. Oh, it is overwhelming. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, ah like show me a data professional who's not overwhelmed, honestly. I've never met one.
00:21:09
Speaker
That's the world we live in. I mean, people in all kinds of roles, especially in our current climate, are being asked to do more with less. So as a data professional, yes, you are wearing multiple hats. You are the project manager. You are the product manager. You are the technical expert. You're the stakeholder manager, right? That's why it is so important to practice and grow your communication skills. It should become second nature to you. it should it should begin to You should be working on your communication skills on your own to the extent that it starts to just feel natural.
Building Trust Through Communication
00:21:53
Speaker
like It's not work. like It's just how you interact with people. right You show up to every interaction. You you know your stuff. right You can show up to every interaction with armed with your facts.
00:22:06
Speaker
When you get asked a question, when you get asked to do something, you know you you're able to respond. It's clunky at first. It's not natural to a lot of people, especially if you have to push back, if you have to assert yourself. um A lot of people are not comfortable pushing back and asserting themselves. I would say especially women and people of color, people from marginalized groups who typically are penalized for coming across as assertive.
00:22:33
Speaker
Oh yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot to manage, but that is why it's so important to invest the time and energy into relationships with stakeholders. So the way I do that is when I'm new to a company, I, I schedule one-on-ones with people. I'll introduce myself in Slack or wherever the messaging platform, you know, that they're using.
00:23:00
Speaker
Hey, I'm Jess. I'm new here. Here's what I'm going to be doing. I'm really interested to learn more about you and your role and kind of start learning all the ways that I can support you better. Would you be open to a quick chat, like a 30-minute call so we can talk through that? And then on that call, you ask them a lot of questions about themselves. How did you end up here? Did you always think you were going to be a product manager?
00:23:26
Speaker
really Be interested in the person and be genuinely interested. Don't just perform interest because that reads as phony and it's obvious. And honestly, if you're not interested, like you're not going to be as good of a partner helping them solve their problems, right? so that's That's just like the early stages of building trust. It's like marbles in the jar. It's a Bernie Brown metaphor she uses for trust being like a marble jar. And every little thing you do puts marbles into the jar. And the goal is to fill that jar up with marbles. And every time trust is damaged, marbles come out of the jar, right? And so it's these little moments over time that stack up and build the trust.
00:24:12
Speaker
And as you do that, the relationships you have with your stakeholders can bear the weight of you having to say no or you having to assert yourself and it becomes more comfortable. Why? Because they already know that you care. They already know that you're not just trying to obstruct, right? Like, okay, you know how, um I mean, maybe you don't, I don't know. I feel like many data professionals have had the experience of you know, either you're new to a company or you've been at a company and someone new comes in or whatever the thing is, you need to work with someone on something and they just flat out are like, no, for no reason, right? Just just to just because it makes them feel powerful. Maybe they're having a crappy day and they just want to like stick it to someone, you know, like whatever the reason is, right?
00:25:07
Speaker
When you have relationships with people and they know that you care and they know that you're trying to do what's best for your team, your company, the business you know the business objective, whatever it is, they they trust that if you're pushing back, it's for a reason and it's not just because you're trying to like, you know you're on a power trip or something.
00:25:29
Speaker
so Yeah, so relationships really underpin all of this. And transparent communication is both a building block of those relationships and a benefit of having those relationships, right? It becomes more comfortable over time.
00:25:44
Speaker
ah
00:25:48
Speaker
It's very basic yet very underrated. This is what I see from, you know, all ah all around. But other thing that you shared with me previously is sometimes we still end up in situations when we need a buy-in from senior stakeholders.
00:26:13
Speaker
and you're kind of trying to pitch to them whatever brilliant idea you have but it's too technical. And you just cannot lower the bar. That's it. It's supposed to be technical to explain all the cavities, benefits, et cetera. But sometimes you feel yourself like you're a bitch and 8 to 5-year-old, and they're just incapable. And you are incapable to lower that. That is also true. That happens. Like, I, you know, kudos to everyone who believes that you need to meet
00:26:46
Speaker
as a stakeholder at their level, but sometimes it's just impossible. I found myself in similar situations. Recently, my team ah was requested to do something for the client.
00:27:02
Speaker
And there are two roads. One is simple, but not really what they wanted, though we would achieve what they need. And the other one is a good solid solution, what they requested. But that would take a couple of weeks up to a couple of months for our investment. as What I want as a product manager is something simple,
00:27:28
Speaker
yet what the user wants, like the first iteration. So my team was trying to explain to me why we just cannot have that in two weeks. You know, whatever MDPI envision, like if we're going to go in that road, helping the clients where they want, it's going to cost us lots of more time and capabilities. And I found myself as a senior leadership in my organization,
00:27:58
Speaker
I find myself yelling in my head saying, I don't want our labors. I just want a baby. Stop just delivering this you know details to me. Just stop. I don't want to know the details. And the reason for that is because I have lots on my plate, not because I even couldn't understand what my team was saying. I just was resisting to understand it.
00:28:27
Speaker
And yet, I can understand any senior leadership in big organization when they have and ongoing lawsuits, when they have a publicity crisis, when they have a big customer churning, whatever.
Explaining Technical Issues to Leadership
00:28:45
Speaker
And when somebody from the editing cabin and trying to get the budget for data measure or other big initial idea, they're just like, no, I like do whatever you want. This is the budget. Just stop, stop nudging me. Like how do we navigate this situations? Yeah. this Oh man. So much to unpack here. Okay. So.
00:29:08
Speaker
The struggle of trying to explain extremely technical concepts to people who aren't like in that field right and familiar with the concepts you're talking about is so real.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So i I have experienced this a lot, especially with like executive leadership who are often extremely busy. They don't have time to sit and listen to a super technical explanation. They want you to summarize the problem in two or three bullets. um That's really hard because I think a lot of times we can get better at summarizing things. We can get better at, um you know, drilling down to like, here's the problem and the impact, right? Or the risk or, you know, whatever it is. But some problems are extremely complicated and they they require an understanding of all the technical implications.
00:30:15
Speaker
Sometimes, and and like, again, with building trust. If you've built trust with leadership and you have that relationship with them, it's a lot easier to have these conversations where you can say, listen, I know you want this summarized.
00:30:33
Speaker
To be honest, there's not really a good way to summarize this without cutting out critical parts of the context that you need to have. I want to make sure that you're equipped to make the best decision here. Would it be okay if I spend 10 minutes walking you through this? Right? Like 10 minutes. No big deal. Or would it be okay if I... hy up you know I'll summarize it to the extent I can, but i need I need to communicate these details to you. Would you be willing to read through that? I know you're busy. I hate that I have to do this. This is going to get us the best solution, right?
00:31:12
Speaker
in an ideal world they'll be like okay yes no problem or you know maybe they might grumble but they'll agree to it right ideally sometimes they're just gonna say no i don't have time and in that case you just have to do the best you can and chad gbt is great for this i can't tell you the number of times where i've had to type like a super long Explanation in chat GPT and then I'll say summarize this right and it it'll be a few iterations I find that like success with chat GPT and other AI tools it's based on the questions you ask and like the prompts you give it um and So it takes practice, but definitely that can help ultimately We have to realize that
00:31:57
Speaker
We're not the ones in charge. If we're having to ask someone else for permission on a decision or authorization or whatever, we're having to get approval. That means it's not our decision and all we can do is communicate the facts and the risks fully to the best of our knowledge and leave it in their hands, right?
Prioritizing and Managing Workloads
00:32:19
Speaker
Okay. So the other thing you mentioned was,
00:32:23
Speaker
when you're overwhelmed and someone in leadership is saying, I need this, this, this, you know, or I need this really complex problem, here's all the details. and And you're just like, no, like I can't, right? If you're having that feeling of drowning when someone starts talking to you, that's overwhelm. Like that's literally cortisol pumping through your veins. Your stress hormones are just going crazy. And you're your brain is just like,
00:32:53
Speaker
it you're not even able to like like hear what's being said, right? I've been in situations like that and this takes an incredible amount. I mean, it's very vulnerable to do this and it feels uncomfortable and scary. It has worked for me and it makes me feel better about the situation, but here's what I do. I will say, I'll take a deep breath and I'll say, whew, okay, I'm hearing what you're needing and to be totally honest with you right now, I'm actually having trouble concentrating on what you're saying because I feel so overwhelmed with these really high priority things that I've been told are not optional. And I'm struggling, like I'm already just like struggling to figure out how I'm gonna make this all work. So I just, can we just take a breath for a sec? Like, let me tell you what I've got going on.
00:33:52
Speaker
And I want to understand how you feel the priority of what you're explaining stacks up against these other things, right? So I've got project A, project B. We had a big thing blow up on project C. I'm putting out fires. you know like I want to make this happen for you. Can you work with me? like Help me understand what needs to be pushed off the plate. Or is this something that we could return to in, say, a week or two? So beautiful.
00:34:22
Speaker
It's hard. to just and oil and It's risky. And and like not every leader is a great leader. You know like you do run the risk of them saying, like no, it's all a priority. Bug up and deal with it, right? Ultimately,
00:34:39
Speaker
we have to make the decisions for ourselves. is that and invite like If you're telling a leader, I'm overwhelmed and i want to I want to support you as best I can, and I want to make this work for you, help me figure out how to do that in a way that keeps prioriti priorities aligned for the business, right? If you are communicating that kindly and respectfully, and you are met with a response that's completely lacking in empathy and like unreasonable, you have to make a decision for yourself if that's something you're willing to live with. I'm not, I'm not willing to live with that.
00:35:19
Speaker
i would probably um I would probably allow that to happen maybe two times before, like the third time that happens, I'm i'm out of there. I'm looking for another job, right? like you have to You have to make decisions for yourself and you have to understand that the decisions at work are not yours to make sometimes. And all you can do is say, here's the reality of the situation.
00:35:47
Speaker
um I've even had to say, okay, yes, can we physically do this thing? Yes, we physically can. But if we do, it's gonna require people on my team to work 60 hours a week for the next month. And to be totally honest with you, I'm not comfortable doing that. like I don't want to ask my team to work those kinds of hours. I think they will be burned out. They're already overwhelmed. I think it'll be demoralizing.
00:36:15
Speaker
I think that it will lead to a decrease in the quality of our outputs, which is a risk all on its own. So can we extend the timeline, you know, whatever it is. And if they're like, you know, and ideally they'll be like, okay, yes, we don't want to burn anyone out. Let's extend the timeline. If they're not, again, you have to decide like, is that something you're willing to work with? Like I've had to tell leaders before, I'm not philosophically aligned with what you're asking me to do. I would not be comfortable doing that.
00:36:45
Speaker
And thankfully in the situations where I've had to do that, the leader I was talking to was someone who I have a really good relationship with was very supportive and it was a dialogue. And this person understood that I'm trying to protect my team because if I, you know, if we lose the team, like what are we going to do? but It's not like you can just go replace a whole team in like a week. It takes time to find good talent. So, um,
00:37:16
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it takes being brave and it takes being willing to be uncomfortable. Like those conversations can get uncomfortable, especially when you're talking to someone who maybe they're, maybe they're like in the C-suite. Maybe they own the company, right? Like depending on what kind of company it is. So, but if you start out that way, if you make it, you know, um, part of your, your values, right? That you're going to be transparent and communicate these things.
00:37:45
Speaker
You build your reputation doing that. People come to expect that from you. And frankly, I think people come to value that level of candor and transparency because they know that you're not going to just tell them what they want to
Transitioning to Data Leadership Roles
00:37:58
Speaker
hear. You're going to tell them the truth. And that's trust building. They might not like it, but they can trust it.
00:38:08
Speaker
So I think we touched on a very interesting topic is what you mentioned to me in a previous call. One of the problems that we have with data space is that ah data people who perform the best in technical skills being promoted to be in managers. Which, yes. Yeah, it's totally you like I'm crediting it to you. Like ah this is such a fundamental thought.
00:38:35
Speaker
This is how we view people to succeed in in a career, but it also requires completely different set skills of the manager, even data manager and ah ah data professional. So how do you become a better data leader if it's even possible. Yeah. Um, I would say the most important thing you can do if you're an individual contributor who is, you know, maybe you're a rock star and so you're getting promoted to manage the team and maybe it's your first time managing. The most important thing you can do right away is, you know,
00:39:24
Speaker
Have one-on-ones with your team regularly. that's That's critical. You must have one-on-ones with your team regularly. And in every single one-on-one, you should be asking some variation of what's one thing I could do to make your job easier? What's one thing I could do to support you better? What's one thing that I'm doing that's getting in your way?
00:39:46
Speaker
You know, just ask for one thing. if you If you leave it wide open, if you just say, how do you think I'm doing as a manager? Like, you're not gonna get anything from that. They're gonna say, oh yeah, no, it's great. If you ask for one thing, everyone can think of one thing, and a lot of times you'll find that people will say the one thing, and then they'll be like, and you know, actually another thing I thought of, and and you'll get really great feedback that way. Now,
00:40:15
Speaker
When you do that, you're opening yourself up to hear things about yourself. They're very hard to hear and might not ring true. And it is so important that you communicate that it's safe for them to have said what they said, right? like i once I once had a direct report give me some really hard feedback about an interaction I was having with another team, right? I was, you know, kind of what we were talking about earlier, I was asserting, here's the needs, here's how this is going to impact us if this doesn't happen. My direct report was part of this conversation and on the side, yeah, ask for a call. We hop on a call.
00:40:58
Speaker
And they said, uh, I really feel like you're coming in hot with, with these guys. And I think it's eroding trust. And, uh, you know, I'm worried that it's gonna like, I don't remember the exact verbiage. I do remember you're coming in hot. the ice sendine boy i I literally was like, whoo. Okay. Um, I'm just going to take a minute and let that sink in. Let me, let me absorb that. Think about what you're saying here.
00:41:29
Speaker
And then I waited a beat and I said, I really appreciate you saying that to me. like i I appreciate you letting me know that's how it's coming across. like Here's where I'm coming from and how I'm viewing it, but I i so appreciate that you're coming to me with this and and not being afraid to tell me. like I need this kind of feedback, right?
00:41:50
Speaker
And, you know, I was able to kind of calibrate my approach a little bit, you know? Like, I'm human. We're all human. we're Like, even people who work on communication all the time are not going to get it right every time. And I'm definitely, like, I definitely make mistakes all the time. The important thing is learning from it and constantly trying to improve and improve and improve, right? Okay, so first thing, ask for feedback.
00:42:14
Speaker
Second thing, ask your leadership what kind of resources and support they have for new managers. A lot of companies will promote people who are into management for the first time and then not follow that up with any type of management training, coaching, you know resources, anything to help empower that person.
00:42:41
Speaker
to thrive, because honestly, like it's a whole new world. Moving from an individual contributor to a manager is wild. and And what's so what's so um paradoxical about it is that Oftentimes, the people who make the best data engineers, the best analysts, the best individual contributors, make the worst
Empathy and Humility in Leadership
00:43:08
Speaker
managers. Because basically, what you're think about think about what you're doing. You're saying, you know what? You are so good at your job that we are going to have you actually stop doing this job that you're really good at and be in charge of a bunch of other people who do this job not as well as you. right like That's essentially what's happening. yeah
00:43:26
Speaker
yeah's do You should not move into management if you're only doing it for the money because you will not be good at it. If you, if you're not, I mean, money is fine as a motivator, as long as it's accompanied by a genuine desire to take care of your team.
00:43:50
Speaker
make things better, help people feel more productive, like create that psychologically safe environment for people to be able to give and receive feedback freely, contribute ideas, you know debate ideas. like I think it's totally okay for teams to disagree and and argue and all of that. As long as we're being kind and respectful, you should be able to say anything you need to say.
00:44:16
Speaker
Like if I, if someone presents an idea to me and I think it's the worst idea I've ever heard, I'm not going to say that's the worst idea I've ever heard. I'm going to say, okay, I have concerns about this idea. Here's my concerns. How would you address this?
00:44:32
Speaker
right Like that's kind and respectful. I'm being honest, but i'm I'm not tearing down the person. I'm not valuing them any less because they submitted an idea. Maybe I don't understand everything about the idea. So I need to ask for more information, right? Feedback, curiosity, leaning into curiosity. Oh, okay. Tell me why you think this is the best solution.
00:44:54
Speaker
Uh, tell me more about, I heard you say you're feeling overwhelmed. Tell me more about that. I noticed you were sending messages at eight o'clock PM last night. Can you tell me more about that or what's going on? Are you finding yourself working nights and weekends a lot because You know, like be proactive. Don't make people come to you. Notice when they're burned out. Notice what's going on. And ask and dig in, like try to help and support.
00:45:26
Speaker
Oh, Jess, but that takes so much mental capacity to be proactive about other people. it's not in age It's not in nature. True. I would say in, you know, majority of people, being proactive and being that much attentive, catching up, what time people are messaging. Sure.
00:45:52
Speaker
I mean, you're exactly right. And that's also why I think like not everyone's cut out to be a manager. That's also true. you know i mean it like ok You're touching on empathy here. right like empathy is but i mean Empathy and humility, I think, are the two most important qualities in a leader. right Empathy doesn't come naturally to everyone.
00:46:14
Speaker
Empathy, you know, like there are plenty of people who are neurodivergent, who, you know, whatever the chemical makeup in their brain is, empathy is not not naturally occurring for a lot of people. And there's a stigma around that. like Think about how we talk about people who find it harder to show empathy. Like, oh, they're a sociopath or whatever, right? um I personally would like to de-stigmatize it. I think empathy is a skill that can be taught and practiced
00:46:48
Speaker
And um if if empathy doesn't come naturally to you, but you're willing to do the work to practice it, that's totally fine. But you have to either be naturally empathetic or be willing to work on it, be willing to...
00:47:05
Speaker
practice it. ah Because yeah, like to your point, a lot of managers don't proactively notice those things. They don't reach out and check on their people. They don't talk about feelings. And I would argue that those should not be people managers.
00:47:20
Speaker
Listen, this is also very hard because we socially, publicly, no one is encouraged to be ah and to show more empathy in a sense that it's not prized. First of all, secondly, like if you look at the most successful entrepreneurs out there,
00:47:43
Speaker
uh, island, um, uh, mark, uh, are not, you know, they, people say that they are more on a social bus spectrum than the empathetic spectrum, to be honest. So this is like, I'm, I'm talking about as a, you know, startup founder as well, as an interpreter, as a leader, this is not the embassy. First of all, is not the skill or quality that is priced out there. Sure. I mean, i yeah anyone why would anyone want to practice it then? Well, okay, because honestly, this kind of encapsulates my entire management of philosophy. Happy people get shit done and they do it well. And when people feel seen and heard,
00:48:39
Speaker
they They're happier. It just is true. and and then like i think Yes, I know. I've been part of startups where empathy was not prioritized. It wasn't seen as important. It's like, no, like the the bottom line, making income, whatever it is, like the business objectives. I get it.
00:48:58
Speaker
Okay, fine. you don't pray You don't prioritize empathy. You don't feel like you should have to put in the time to do it. You're the business owner or whatever. Okay, hire someone to be chief of staff or whatever who does get it, who does care about empathy. Because I guarantee you, you're going to have a much happier workforce with less turnover and fewer issues if you are leading with empathy, if someone is leading with empathy.
00:49:27
Speaker
and humility. But I mean, the the the whole idea that you know where we should be like machines when we come to work and like leave your feelings at the door, don't take it personally, like I'm sorry, but that's all BS.
00:49:45
Speaker
like You don't stop being a person just because you log on and start
Candid Business Communication and Feedback
00:49:50
Speaker
working. You still have feelings. you still like And and like you might think you're the most logical person in the world, but your emotions absolutely impact you without you even knowing it.
00:50:01
Speaker
That's 100% correct and I saw this so so many times even with external teams I need to connect the best way is a personal Like no one is actually able to build the connection based on the knowledge show like yes Yes, you can build connections communities based on technologies, right? but it's a true connection interpersonal ones is based on some personal things like kids, family, personal, hobbies, whatever. Yeah, this is much more powerful. That's so much true. And you cannot leave that at the door. Right. Yeah.
00:50:46
Speaker
I mean, okay, you can run a business like that and it and it might work. It might work for five years, it might work for 10 years. It's not gonna work forever. If all you're trying to do is like ah you know build something up, do a cash grab, shut the business down, move on to the next thing or sell it off, whatever, like maybe maybe you're um just a serial like startup founder and you're just trying to like build businesses and sell them off. And you actually don't care whether people wanna work there long-term.
00:51:15
Speaker
Okay, like if that's how you're gonna run things, that's fine. I would argue you should be transparent about that so that you attract people who align with that philosophy. Like it's not important to everyone. I think it's important to many people. It's not important to everyone. So okay, say it out loud, transparent communication. We're not gonna, like I'm not gonna care much about how I say things. I'm gonna say things how I want and this is how I'm gonna run the business and you're either with me or you're not. A lot of people are still gonna be with you.
00:51:45
Speaker
Okay, just I got a question. um I think we will take one more question. And so I'm clearly a very empathetic person. So you mentioned that how how important is feedback, and this is the basic skill for leaders to be, not only for leaders, but for everyone to be able to accept the feedback. But what I have ah hard times is Given the feedback because when I give the feedback, I am so much worried that I'm going to hurt person.
00:52:23
Speaker
And it's easier for me not to give the feedback and suck it in basically, just leave it to myself and and and bear any bad emotions I had within the interaction with that person, but not to touch base on that. Yeah. How do we deal with that? Yeah.
00:52:45
Speaker
ah i I think that's probably the number one struggle for managers is is giving feedback. and good you know like Just based on my own experience with managers who were just were the same way, like could not bring themselves to give feedback, right?
00:53:03
Speaker
um Okay, so two things. First, Brene Brown says, clear is kind, unclear is unkind. You are doing people a kindness by telling them the hard things. Even though it sucks and even though it's going to suck for them and the moment is really uncomfortable, it is actually unkind to withhold information that could help someone grow and improve.
00:53:32
Speaker
The other thing is there's there's a book I always recommend. I mean, I think everyone should read it. It's called Thanks for the Feedback by Doug Stone and Sheila Heen. Amazing book. When you're giving feedback, it's really important to Okay, I think a lot of times what happens in feedback conversations is we jump to the interpretation, right? We'll say something like, it's just like you're not a team player. We say that as though it's a fact. We say that as though it's an objective, like, like you know what that means, you're not a team player, right? That is an interpretation. Avoid those. Stick to the data points.
00:54:17
Speaker
I noticed that when you were asked to do a code review, you ignored the message even though I know you were online and you weren't in a meeting. I also noticed that you had you know you asked someone to cover your last three on call shifts. And I'm also noticing that you're not participating in team discussions. So all these things combined are making me tell myself that you're not a team player, right?
00:54:46
Speaker
I'm telling you behaviors that I've seen. And even better is if you can follow that up with what I would really love to see is you know maybe you cover someone else's on call shift sometime. if you need to If you need to have someone cover yours, like trade with them. if you know If you're in a team discussion and we're talking about ideas, like I want to hear your ideas.
00:55:11
Speaker
when When you don't participate in those discussions, it makes me worry that maybe we're not getting all the best ideas out there. We might miss out on a really great decision because you're not contributing. And I value your input. um you know Stuff like that. So it's like you want to say the situation, what you observed, and what you would like to see change, like the expectation.
00:55:39
Speaker
And that those are the elements of like successful feedback. If you can do that, it's hard. And sometimes you have to give really hard feedback to people. And sometimes they cry and they get really upset. They might yell, they might get defensive. Don't ever say, don't take it personally.
00:56:00
Speaker
It is personal. It's about them. It's about their behavior or a thing they did. It is personal. So in situations where I've given feedback and the person has become emotional, I just hold space. I just give it a minute. And I might say something like, I can imagine that this is really hard to hear.
00:56:22
Speaker
And I want you to know that what I'm telling you is coming from a place of wanting to give you a chance to improve this. I believe that it's something you can improve. I like you as a person. I'm not trying to say anything like you're not bad. You're not less valuable.
00:56:39
Speaker
I do need these things to change though. I do need to see X, Y, and Z, right? like you can still You can still show empathy even in those really hard exchanges. But withholding the feedback is absolutely unacceptable. like Anyone who withholds feedback, like you you have to get yourself to a point where where you can deliver information that people need to thrive in their jobs.
Conclusion and Further Contact Information
00:57:08
Speaker
Just I get so much wisdom when ah break you know in in every hour encounter. I feel like I improved my communication and communication with my team and understanding myself ah over the short course of our interactions. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing this.
00:57:31
Speaker
this is I mean, some can say it's basic and boring. And yes, we all know that, but it takes so much time and thoughtfulness to actually exercise this.
00:57:49
Speaker
And this is the hard part. It's not like we don't know it. The hard part is paying attention and making sure or we do that. It is. It's so hard. Thanks for all the kind words. I could talk about this all day, so happy to talk anytime. Yes, I'm going to include your LinkedIn um into the description of this episode. Thank you so much for joining. And yes. Yeah, thanks for having us. It was fun.