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BONUS: Mike Winger Interview: NAR and the Passion
370 Plays4 years ago
I was thrilled to have Mike Winger of BibleThinker on to discuss charismatic theology, new apostolic reformation and the Passion Translation.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Verity Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Verity. I'm your host, Felicia Masonheimer, an author, speaker, and Bible teacher. This podcast will help you embrace the history and depth of the Christian faith, ask questions, seek answers, and devote yourself to becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. You don't have to settle for watered-down Christian teaching. And if you're ready to go deeper, God is just as ready to take you there. This is Verity, where every woman is a theologian.
Interview with Pastor Mike Winger
00:00:30
Speaker
Hi friends Felicia Mason-Heimer here and I am so excited because we are doing an interview tonight with someone who I admire so much and who has had a great influence on my life as both
00:00:46
Speaker
a Christian personally and as a Christian leader. And so as we wait for him to come in, I wanted to introduce him a little bit to you, tell you a little bit about what we're going to be discussing. Now I will say this, this is not Pastor Mike's
00:01:01
Speaker
my favorite platform. He is a Facebook and YouTube guy and so we are really lucky to snag him on Instagram because he really doesn't do Instagram. So I'm hoping that this all goes seamlessly but if not you know where to go. I'll direct you.
00:01:18
Speaker
So Pastor Mike, Mike Winger is an associate pastor at Hosanna Christian Fellowship in Bellflower, California. He graduated from the School of Ministry at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa in 2006. He is strongly committed to the careful and thoughtful study of the Bible with a view toward answering skeptics challenges with reason and scripture. He believes that God has called him to make disciples through teaching ministry and is driven by
00:01:48
Speaker
a great confidence in the sufficiency and truth of the Bible and the Christian worldview to not only inform us of the reality and truth of Jesus and the Bible, but to equip us to live all of life rightly and to worship God in truth. And so I'm so excited for him to join us today.
Pastor Mike's YouTube Influence and Biblical Teaching
00:02:07
Speaker
So I've been following Pastor Mike for
00:02:10
Speaker
Gosh, a couple years now and watched a lot of his YouTube videos. If you guys have not followed him on YouTube, I highly suggest that you head over there and subscribe. He has a video on almost every single topic. So picture Ask Anything Monday, but YouTube version and you can just play it like a podcast and listen to him talk through these topics with just fantastic depth.
00:02:37
Speaker
I'm really excited for you guys to be able to hear him talk about today's topic. So one of the projects that he has is on the Passion Translation. And he has been working on this for a long time and interviewing a variety of scholars on the topic. And so he also, yes, has been interviewed with Alyssa Childers, which is so, so awesome. And hopefully, if we can get this working, we will be able to get him on here too.
00:03:05
Speaker
So I gave a little introduction of who you are and talked a little, touched on kind of what's to come and what you've been working on, but I would love to just hear from you a little more about who you are and what you do at Bible Thinker.
00:03:22
Speaker
Well, basically, look, I'm just a pastor in Southern California who's really passionate about thinking biblically about everything. And like a lot of Christians who love the word of God, I have this like inexpressible appreciation for the scripture and how it can transform everything about our lives. And yet it remains like an untapped resource for a lot of believers. You know, it's just a book that
00:03:44
Speaker
that they know the values there, but they aren't sure how to get it or know what it teaches about different issues and all that. So I just spend all my time studying and researching and reading so that I can try to present thorough biblical teaching, like taking people deeper, you know, a layer deeper. I do topical stuff as well as verse by verse teaching and somewhere I'm caught somewhere in the middle between
00:04:05
Speaker
Ooh, I've got to teach this awesome, beautiful, amazing thing that Scripture says. And then on the other side, what did I just see online? And then I'm going to refute that or deal with that and try to hopefully real biblical clarity that's not from like an angry place. Because a lot of times people don't respond until they're mad. And I want to try to do it because of a loyalty and a faithfulness to Scripture and not because I'm irritated. Although sometimes that's a challenge.
00:04:29
Speaker
Yes, it is. And honestly, that is one of the big reasons that I really wanted to interview you because I think that your loyalty to scripture, but also your grace really sets you apart from a lot of apologists. And I really
Balancing Grace and Truth in Apologetics
00:04:43
Speaker
appreciate that. And I know that here in that every woman at theologian community, that is something we talk about a lot that grace and truth or speaking the truth and love actually requires the love part. You do that really well. Well, thank you so much. And I'll tell you what, that is not natural for me at all.
00:04:58
Speaker
I mean, it's entirely a work of the Lord because it's just enough slowly moving more and more towards having a gracious perspective on things in my life. I started out like a lot of people, you know, like, this is the facts and you're being dumb.
00:05:14
Speaker
but which originally I suppose, but thankfully I wasn't on YouTube at the time. The Lord's grace in that area. Yes, that is so relatable to me and I know to so many people who are listening to this. So I want to jump right in because we've got a lot of questions for you.
Understanding the New Apostolic Reformation
00:05:31
Speaker
all of your study on these topics but we want to talk about your passion project but first kind of leading up to that we want to talk a little bit about the new apostolic reformation or n-a-r this has kind of become a catchphrase that i've seen pass around almost like an umbrella term that maybe people don't always know exactly what it means and there seems to be some confusion about it so would you be able to kind of
00:05:59
Speaker
describe it to us or explain what NAR is. Yeah, and I'm going to share this. I just want to say I'm not like the expert on this. There's people who probably know more about it than I do, but I have spent a large amount of time, you know, trying to review and understand and then respond to some of the stuff that's coming from the people that are leading what is often called the NAR. So what I'll say is this, probably the name itself, NAR, as like that sort of a catch term, really caught on because of a book written by Holly Pivock and Doug Guivett.
00:06:28
Speaker
And they talked about this new apostolic reformation. It is a real movement that's going on, you know, in the body of Christ. And I do consider these people, my brothers and sisters, I think that there are some real problems and some questions that are going on here. I do think, though, that NAR may be a bit of a misnomer. The name itself, NAR, came from within this larger group of sort of, I would call, more hyper-charismatic, you know, like I believe in the gifts of spirit, but this is more
00:06:55
Speaker
a step further than that. And the name came from them, from, well, one of the groups within, C. Peter Wagner and this one guy. Long story short, like this guy was like trying to identify this like apostolic movement and gave it a name.
00:07:09
Speaker
that name, really only a certain number of people in that movement actually use that name. But now the people who are critical of the movement, they're all using that name. Because they'll go, you're part of the NAR. And they go, what's the NAR? So let's just set aside the title NAR for just a second. And I want to say that here's what's legit.
00:07:28
Speaker
There, there is a group, a movement, they expect massive miracles. There's like, they think we're, we're moving into a new wave, a new work of the Holy Spirit, greater miracles than ever before. And at the core of it is the leading and teaching of specific leaders that are apostles and prophets. And that these are like very official, very, very high status leaders in this group. So like Bill Johnson is one of them, you know, they're apostles and he's an apostle in this group. At least that's the name they give.
00:07:58
Speaker
And they believe in what's called a five-fold ministry. But again, a lot of people believe in that, but wouldn't take it to the place this group takes it.
00:08:05
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And long story short, I guess if I could summarize it like this, they're orchestrating a new way of doing church around their beliefs in extremely large numbers of miracles, everybody prophesying, everybody doing healings, miraculous healings all the time, that sort of thing. This is causing that group to just grow very rapidly because it's exciting, right? And they have like keys, spiritual keys that will unlock your churches, spiritual,
00:08:32
Speaker
new wave of the spirit kind of thing. And in the midst of it, there's a lot of issues and a lot of questions, a lot of problems. So I agree with a lot of the criticisms that are brought against the NAR. I just don't get the title very much because they don't. And I don't cause a divide as they go, who are you talking about? I've never heard the term NAR. But if you say, yeah, signs and wonders, apostolic visions, trances and teleportation and things like that, they go, oh yeah, well that's us.
00:08:58
Speaker
Oh my goodness. So I talk about spiritual gifts frequently here on my account. And I am, like you, consider myself charismatic or continuationist regarding spiritual gifts. And I think what I've seen with the criticism of NIR is this lumping in of anyone who is continuationist or anyone who is charismatic into this more extreme camp.
00:09:26
Speaker
So what would you say maybe are some of the differences between your standard run-of-the-mill continuationist or charismatic and the NAR? I'm seeing you kind of said some of them, but for people who maybe don't come from those traditions, what would be the biggest differences?
00:09:44
Speaker
I think I'd want people to recognize who are maybe not charismatic is that within charismatic views, there's this massive variety. And so you have people like me who you might think I'm a soft charismatic. If you're part of the hyper group, you're like, we're not hyper soft. But one of the things I would say is that if someone's like, Mike, I have a word from the Lord for you, I'm all ears.
00:10:06
Speaker
I'm listening. I want to know what they have to share. I'm considering, is this from the Lord or not? I'm going to weigh it. I'm not just going to swallow it. I'm going to evaluate it. But I think one of the big differences between, say, myself, perhaps you, I don't know all your views on this stuff, and say the groups like Bill Johnson, is that they're trying to systematize the work of the Spirit in a way that I think
00:10:27
Speaker
endorses, I hate to use this term, but I want to be clear. So it endorses fakery, it endorses faking prophecy and faking even healings. This doesn't mean that they're trying to, it's complicated. I don't think they're actually trying to deceive, I think the intentions are positive, but I think that in their view,
00:10:45
Speaker
They don't just want to be open to the work of the Spirit, wherever, you know, as He wills. So, hey, if I go 30 years with no prophecies, fine, as the Lord wills. If it happens every day, fine, as the Lord wills. But they want it to happen every day, all the time, everywhere. And because of this, they're trying to make it sort of a systematic thing. For instance, in the trainings that they'll give, that Bethel and this group gives to people, they've said with their own lips, that they'll line two sets of people,
00:11:14
Speaker
And we'll have the people in one side of the line identify a person on the other side. Okay. So you have a partner and each of you gives a prophecy to the other person. If one, like this is a recipe for fake prophecy, right? Like the prophecy never comes full of man. I don't just do it because you have, I mean, I don't initiate anything. If the Lord gives me something, it's his initiation.
00:11:37
Speaker
So then they encourage people to give that, and then they go on to say, now if you got it wrong, hey, applaud, good for you, at least you're moving in the right direction. But that's moving in the wrong direction. Even a charismatic, a lot of charismatics would say, that's the wrong direction, that's not the right direction. You're encouraging people to be okay with proclaiming things in God's name that may not be from God. And then when you do this like church-wide, you create a whole other culture that is very problematic.
00:12:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's a perfect example because I think it's so easy, especially if you aren't familiar with charismatic churches or their theology, I think just the idea of prophecy in general is probably really hard to understand or understand where we arrive at that biblically, that understanding, or how it can be walked out biblically.
00:12:32
Speaker
But then to see this very extreme version be the most public version, I think it can tend to create so much confusion about spiritual gifts in general and how soft Charismatics will go with that. Believe and live.
00:12:56
Speaker
When I look into these groups and these things, and I think this is so different than what I've experienced in my past, where perhaps someone comes to me and they're like, you know, I think the Lord's really leading me to share this with you and they share it with me. And it's not at all like the thing that I'm seeing turned into like a mechanized, formalized,
00:13:16
Speaker
thing in that movement. As I watch, look at some of the profits that have been speaking in 2020, trying to predict all the stuff that's going to happen. It's great. The track record says great. We don't have to listen to pretty much any of you guys right now. But it makes me want to become a cessationist, just seeing how outrageous some of this stuff is.
00:13:37
Speaker
But I don't want to respond to the idea of prophecy the way I respond to the abuse of it. And that's all, right? I just, I want to be open to what God would do. I don't think there's any biblical reason to say that God won't speak and give you a word of wisdom or knowledge or something like that. I don't see any scriptural justification for that. And, you know, that brings up a good point that, and we say this a lot,
00:14:00
Speaker
here. Reactionary theology is not sound theology. If you're building your views based on a reaction to somebody else without checking it against scripture, you're going to just go to another extreme.
Issues with The Passion Translation
00:14:12
Speaker
And now I didn't want to add one thing. You were just on an interview with multiple people talking about the prophecies in 2020. And I have shared that to my Facebook page for those of you who want to watch that interview, Pastor Mike and also Dr. Brown, who I also have recommended both were interviewed on that.
00:14:30
Speaker
And so you can hear some of your thoughts on those 2020 prophecies. But since we're getting to about halfway through the interview, I want to shift into a discussion of the passion because I know that this is something you're very passionate about. Had to throw that in there. My husband loves puns, so I get points. But let's talk about the project that you're working on regarding the passion translation. What is that all about?
00:14:57
Speaker
So the Passion Translation here, I actually have multiple copies of it at this point, but here's one of them. The Passion Translation, this is the new one that just came out. It's like the special Bethel edition with a foreword by Bill Johnson on it, and he's endorsing this book quite a lot. So this is a translation that, in short, it gives
00:15:19
Speaker
It gives a translation that's specifically designed to support the movement that we're discussing, right? This apostolic, hyper charismatic movement. This translation is meant to prop that up. It does alter the Bible in countless places, not always heresy, but alterations.
00:15:39
Speaker
had my eyebrows go up when i first started studying it and i made a few videos responding to it but i realized that what i was doing was insufficient because this thing's selling millions and millions of copies so i decided to make it be a larger project where i hired a number of very reputable very renowned scholars to review the passion translation and then i'm doing interviews with them and i had them write papers and all that's available totally free
00:16:01
Speaker
so that we can just really publicize what's going on with this thing. Some of the issues are kind of complicated when it comes to Bible translation and average people just kind of go, I'm not really sure what this is about. I don't have like the background info to understand. So those interviews are really taking people deep into understanding the very major problems with the Passion Translation and its author.
00:16:21
Speaker
Well, we really appreciate what you're doing there. What about the author? Can you give us a little bit of insight into Brian Simmons, correct? Yep, that's right. Into like, I know, maybe you don't want to spend too much time on that, but where he comes from or what inspired his writing of The Passion?
00:16:40
Speaker
You know, in one circle, it'll look like he's just, he's just a Bible translator who's really investing all his time and energy in this stuff. When he's in some circles, he talks like that, but when he's in more charismatic circles, he's a little more open. And so I've been putting together the footage of all his claims, but basically he says, I was called by God. Jesus breathed on me and gave me the spirit of revelation.
00:17:00
Speaker
and that I am empowered to create this translation, the God has given me special revelations that nobody has known before that other translations don't have. Sometimes he puts those in the translation. A lot of times he puts them in the footnotes. But in the end, we find out that there's a few problems. One is he doesn't actually have the credentials to do a translation. He doesn't have any sort of degree from a credible institution related to biblical languages. And there's a variety of languages, right? It's not just Greek. It's also Hebrew, Old and New Testament, historical context that span millennia.
00:17:30
Speaker
It takes a lot of work to do a translation. No one person is really up to the job. And he's making some very outrageous claims about the Greek, about supposed Aramaic. He says he's translating from the Aramaic and that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic and that these are just demonstrably false claims.
00:17:49
Speaker
And you find words in the translation that don't come from Greek. And he goes, oh, that's from the Aramaic. And the scholars who are reviewing it go, there's no Aramaic. What's he talking about? You know, because it's, it's, it's just pulling the wool over people's eyes. Yeah. So there's a, there's a short version for you.
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah, well I watched an interview with him where he was talking about how he had received from the Spirit of Revelation, from an angel actually, an extra the 23rd chapter of John or an extra chapter of John as well that that was from the Library of Heaven and it's just
00:18:24
Speaker
I think so many people don't know who he is or any of this background. They just, someone in the comments said that TPT is listed as one of the translations in the Bible app. So someone could just find it and read it and think that it's just like any other. But the language, and I think it was one of your videos where you pointed this out, the language, it's very distinctly reflective of that NAR type theology, isn't it?
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah, so like when I talk about them systematizing things, an example of this is to suggest that you need to like go from different levels of spirituality and then they try to like define these levels, levels of glory, that kind of thing. One of the things they'll say is you have to be like activated in your gifts. Your gifts have to be activated and they can activate you with their special teachings or by reading their books or by reading this Passion Translation. Well, this idea of being activated spiritually is not in the Bible.
00:19:17
Speaker
but it's in the Passion Translation. So in Romans chapter 12 where it talks about prophesying according to your faith, he adds the word activate. You know, he prophesies you have to be activated. And so then he sells courses and he gives this translation out like this is going to activate you. And so do you see this is taking the extra-biblical false systemization of
00:19:41
Speaker
questionable prophetic methods and putting it into scripture. So this is, to me, a huge, huge deal. It's a real problem. And that's why we're doing this whole project. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So can you tell us like some of the scholars that you're interviewing or what they're talking about?
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah. I'm so excited because I actually got, I mean, to use the weird phrase, big name scholars to do this. So like Dr. Craig Blomberg, Dr. Douglas Moo. I mean, like, for instance, if you go to any, you know, book of Romans, you know, commentary, you're going to see Douglas Moo is in their foot, right? Cause he's just, he's like the man when it comes to a lot of this stuff. So he reviews Brian Simmons and it just went live this morning on my YouTube channel.
00:20:23
Speaker
he reviews the book of Romans there and and he just says like this is bad this is bad like you shouldn't use this translation it's in in in his terms that scholars the way they talk right he goes it's an insufficient guide to the word god a nice way of saying don't do it
00:20:41
Speaker
Trimper Longman, who worked on the Song of Solomon for the New Living Translation, which is a great translation. He worked on the Song of Solomon for that. He says that Brian Simmons has so messed up the translation of the Song of Solomon that he's actually changed the genre of the book. The whole genre is different now, and he's turned it into allegory, what was originally not allegory. It's poetic, but it's not allegory.
00:21:05
Speaker
Keys added tons to the text. Like if you just go to the Song of Solomon, read it in any translation, then read it in the Passion, you will find it's a lot longer in the Passion, but it also adds and takes away lots of words because it's just not faithful to what the Scripture actually says. So every scholar has agreed that this is not only is it not a good translation, they've all agreed, I've asked them this question, it's not even a translation. Like it's just improper to call it a translation that's misleading.
00:21:34
Speaker
And so even the aim of the thing, the passion translation, is not accurate. It's not true. These are pretty extreme things. Yeah. Those are a couple of examples. I have to put a user up and I've got quotes from all these scholars. Dr. Craig Blomberg said that the passion translation needs a surgeon general's warning because of its potential hazards. A scholar who likes paraphrases and would normally be happy to see them, but not this one because it's
00:22:04
Speaker
It's got issues. Well, that brings up another question. Then what would you say are some of the differences between the passion and the message or why would the message be more safe to read? No surgeon general's warning.
00:22:19
Speaker
So this is, and this is where I'm, I'm actually hearing the scholars. They go, well, the message isn't so bad. And I'm like, really? I don't really like to message very much personally, but I realized they have these two categories for translations. They have like, here's your translation. It's accurate. It's like, this is pretty much what the text is saying in the original. Then we're going to call this other group of paraphrase and paraphrases. We consider almost like a translation with commentary, right? And, and if
00:22:42
Speaker
If you acknowledge that, then you can look at the message as the translation with commentary, then it doesn't feel as bad because you don't think it's you're really reading the plain text. And so in that category, the message is acceptable in that category.
00:22:59
Speaker
The thing scholars will say is that the passion translation is not even acceptable in that category because it adds so many ideas that are foreign to the text. And Eugene Peterson, the guy who did the message, actually did put it through some rigorous theological vetting.
00:23:15
Speaker
Before they published it and you know, he doesn't he's said, you know, I don't want people using the message as their as their Bible Like this is just your Bible. This is like an extra thing I don't want you to teach you from the pulpit with it. He said that as well Whereas Brian Simmons, he says it to translation not a paraphrase. That's not true. That's basically a lie Then he says that you can use it as your primary study Bible. That's not true
00:23:37
Speaker
And the scholars say, not only is that not true, it's not even sufficient, really, as a paraphrase, because it adds too many, it was Dr. Darrow Bach, he says, there's more eh than good. Oh.
00:23:50
Speaker
Oh, I love how the scholars are so gentle in how they're saying it, but they're just so honest. Like this, this is concerning. Like if the Bible is the authority on which we base our lives, our theology, it is so important that it be accurate to those original languages as best we can.
New Book Announcement and Navigating Doctrinal Divides
00:24:11
Speaker
We're so grateful that you're doing this project and I can't wait for everyone to head over and listen in.
00:24:17
Speaker
I think all of us have been at a women's conference where we were told, you are a beautiful daughter of the Most High King. And it's true. But it's not the whole truth. The beauty of being God's daughter has some backstory and it's left out in a lot of messages preached to women.
00:24:36
Speaker
So if you're tired of hearing the watered down Christian teaching and you're hungry for a deeper spiritual life, I have something for you. It's my brand new book, Stop Calling Me Beautiful, Finding Soul Deep Strength in a Skin Deep World. Stop Calling Me Beautiful is a book about going deeper with God.
00:24:53
Speaker
I'm going to talk about pursuing the truths of who God is and who we are in relationship to Him, how to study Scripture, how legalism, shallow theology, and false teaching keep us from living boldly as a woman of the Word. I'm so excited to put this book in your hands. You can grab your copy on Amazon or for more information, head to my website FeliciaMasonheimer.com and click the book tab.
00:25:18
Speaker
One last question, and this can maybe spark a few more, but in light of what we know about the passion, in light of what we know about some of the unhealthy aspects of NAR,
00:25:32
Speaker
What would you, how would you encourage Christians today who are trying to discern through this stuff? Because if you go, especially on Instagram, but probably on Facebook, anywhere else, there's a lot of stuff coming from certain corners of Christianity that is just like the NAR is new age and it's evil and everybody involved with it is and
00:25:55
Speaker
If you have a friend who's attending one of these churches, they're literally unsafe, maybe demon possessed. And so if you have a friend then who is reading the passion without knowing this stuff or maybe going to Bethel, it can be really hard to understand how to navigate this. So do you have any wisdom to share on that topic? Yeah.
00:26:17
Speaker
Let me put it this way. And I'm afraid I might be controversially political for just a second to make a point. We are in the midst of experiencing the results of a strong divide in our country between two different political sides. And they're both so entrenched that they only see the problems on the other side and they don't see their own issues. That would be my perspective. And this is causing them to sin against one another and to not care.
00:26:44
Speaker
And I think that this can happen in the church as well. I think that when we go, okay, we're going to respond to the worst elements of this hyper charismatic stuff, then we're not going to be reflective about how we're treating each other with Christian charity or understanding things carefully and thoughtfully. So my basic thought is let's not devise so harshly.
00:27:01
Speaker
Uh, both camps will look at the other at some point and be like, you're blaspheming the spirit because you're attributing, you know, you're, you're attributing these wonderful prophecies to, to Satan. And so you're calling the works of the spirit satanic. So then, so the, um, the charismatic will say the cessationists are blasting the spirit or the vice versa, the cessationists will say, well, you're blasting the spirit because you're proclaiming things from the spirit that aren't. And I just say, um, a, I don't think that's a blast from the spirit means anyways, but, but B.
00:27:29
Speaker
this is going too far. And it's painting with too broad a brush. I personally see believers in both sides. And when I look at Bethel, I see a church full of a lot of sincere people. And I see a group, NAR, people who are involved in, whether you call it NAR or not. I see a lot of very sincere Christians who are just being misled in some cases on the nature of prophecy and how accurate it's supposed to be and how it's
00:27:53
Speaker
like the system-tizing of it is wrong. I just think we need to be treating each other like we're Christians and then we can charitably call each other towards better things. And it's one thing to recognize that
00:28:04
Speaker
a particular book or a particular teacher in a group is heretical or is incorporating new age stuff. Like the physics of heaven is a book that comes from the Bethel circle that's just wickedly messed up. I mean, it just is. That doesn't mean everybody in that circle is, right? It's not like you find the worst thing in that circle and then you paint the whole circle with it. That's what I want to say. Let's not do that because if you think of your own journey as a Christian,
00:28:30
Speaker
you can realize that you didn't always fit perfectly into the circle you were even part of. So, you know, you're your own person. And I just want to treat each other like that. I think that we just have to have grace and honesty. And I try to inhabit that middle ground as best I can. I get criticized on both sides for being too harsh and not harsh enough. And maybe that means I'm doing the right thing.
00:28:57
Speaker
You know, it's interesting because I often hear from people saying that, oh yeah, well maybe they're sincere, but they're off base. And so, you know, they're off base and that's just facts. But I think recognizing that there are sincere people who are misled
00:29:15
Speaker
and need to be redirected back to the truth, back to a more grounded understanding on some of these things, that it's the grace and compassion for their sincerity that helps bring them to that understanding. And if you disagree with any of this, feel free to speak up. And also, how many times do we see very insincere Baptists
00:29:38
Speaker
or Presbyterians or Reformed and Calvinist brothers and sisters who are practicing things that are also unbiblical. And I think the visibility of the Charismatic Church and just the sheer sensationalism of it at times puts a target on it. And it's really easy to
00:29:58
Speaker
find fault with every single piece of that, especially if you're not familiar with a healthy version of it. And so I appreciate that, you know, you're pointing out there are brothers and sisters in these churches. I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Charismatic slash Pentecostal church is one of the biggest traditions worldwide at this point. And so...
00:30:21
Speaker
Yeah, so to completely reject that any of those people are believers is definitely, like you said, painting with a really broad brush. Yeah, and doing so without biblical warrants. I mean, if somebody's preaching a false gospel,
00:30:36
Speaker
I'm going to call that out. If they're misusing the gifts, then I look at, say, 1 Corinthians, and I go, here's a group misusing the gifts. It didn't mean they weren't saved. It's like, oh, you're all not saved now. And so when I look into these different things, I want to be honest first about the gospel. Where's the gospel in here? What is their beliefs about who Jesus is and what he's done for us and how we receive that? And if that theology seems to be intact, then I'm going to be treating them as brothers.
00:31:04
Speaker
And maybe brothers are, maybe brothers and sisters who have issues, but brothers and sisters nonetheless. Like I'm crossing a big line when I say that whole group of people are unsaved because I see this, this, and that symptom in them, and especially when those symptoms aren't actually the gospel.
00:31:22
Speaker
Because I just think Christians can be in a lot of error and still be Christians. Yeah. And so fortunately, those of you who are listening on the podcast and here, Pastor Mike has a ton of resources breaking down Bethel theology. You've done a whole thing on Bill Johnson. You've done The Passion, and now it's even more resources with The Passion.
00:31:44
Speaker
and so much more.
Closing Remarks and Social Media
00:31:46
Speaker
He has so many videos on YouTube and then on his website. So do you want to tell us a little bit of where we can find you, how everyone can follow you and keep up with your work?
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'll just mention two ways. One would be, I mean, primarily my primary platform is YouTube. And so you can just look up my name, Mike Winger, W-I-N-G-E-R on YouTube and you'll find me there. I put up usually two videos a week, sometimes more. I'm actually doing a series, a whole bunch of videos coming late January, early February. I'm going to put one up a day, little short clips dealing with progressive Christianity.
00:32:16
Speaker
something I did with builders who you mentioned earlier. And that's coming out soon, but also you can go to Biblethinker.org. Now, granted, my website is not that great, primarily because I like built it myself and I have no idea what I'm doing, but we're trying to improve it. So in the future, maybe one day this year, hopefully, it'll be a much better, more accessible website. But one of the things about this ministry is it's extremely low budget. I mean, I'm just
00:32:42
Speaker
I'm just producing content, putting it out as far and wide as I can for free. And it being low budget means that I can do this. It's been great. That's awesome. Well, we are so grateful that you made time to join us here. And so thankful for the work that you're doing.
00:32:57
Speaker
This is Pastor Mike Winger of Biblethinker.org. He is on YouTube also, and I hope that you guys will give him a follow and subscribe to learn from him and his most recent project. Thank you so much, Pastor Mike, and we will be putting this interview on my podcast as well, and I'll send it to you after the fact. So thanks for taking the time out for us this evening.
00:33:21
Speaker
Thank you for having me. I hope you have a wonderful night and thank you everyone who joined us. We are so grateful that you listened in. This will be saved on my profile and also to the podcast. Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Verity. You can connect with fellow listeners by following me on Instagram at Felicia Masonheimer or on our Facebook page by the same name. Also visit FeliciaMasonheimer.com for links to each episode and the show notes.