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Raise a Glass to Captain America, Winter Soldier (Season 3 Finale feat. Ben Franklin, Langston Hughes, and more)
20 Plays2 days ago
Eric and Hunter grapple with the many heads of hydra in the Finale of Season 3. Happy 4th and Happy 250th America! I hope you enjoy. And before you say it, yes, we realized after the fact that helicarriers are not Triskelions...
Raise and Pour ends at 16:40
Careless People by Sarah Wynn-Williams
Ben Franklin on freedom and Security
Jimi Hendrix's Star Spangled Banner
The parable of the good samaritan
James Madison in Federalist 51: "But the great security against a gradual concentration of the several powers in the same department, consists in giving to those who administer each department the necessary constitutional means and personal motives to resist encroachments of the others. The provision for defense must in this, as in all other cases, be made commensurate to the danger of attack. Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government."
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:46
Speaker
Oh.
Podcast Introduction and Patreon Launch
00:01:17
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Raise a Glass, the podcast where we talk about the stories storytellers that shape us. My name is Eric Lentila. And I am Hunter Danson.
00:01:28
Speaker
And Hunter, before we get into our story for today... we have our first Patreon members. We have three members of our Patreon and we have an official bookend friend. And so shout out to our friend, Kyle, who's been long time listener and particular particular partaker and listening to these episodes. Kyle, thank you so much. And ah really, really grateful for you. And yes, um have some of the conversations we've had offline.
00:02:04
Speaker
And I hope you really enjoyed some of those contents. Andrew, you released some different bloopers on there recently, as well as some grab bag episodes, not just from our most recent episode, the last episode, but also from previous seasons where we'd done some content that is now released in there. i think there's even, is there going to be a video released in there too?
00:02:28
Speaker
Yes, the yeah that our Dominion playthrough. Yeah. And we played a couple games of Dominion. I recorded my screen. and So you could see the games that we played. That's great. And we comment on them. um and then other really cool content. started releasing some different stories behind each episode.
00:02:48
Speaker
And so hoping to work through all the episodes slowly. And then, yeah I had an idea for for Hunter and I. Maybe...
00:03:00
Speaker
we'll see We'll see if it works out for for future content. But so so so grateful for that. So excited to have launched that Patreon um and excited for people to be able to get the chance to check it out.
00:03:14
Speaker
I think there's some really cool resources and some really cool extra content um that we've created and that will be put on there over time. Yeah. And you can join for free. You don't have to we We still send updates through it. so who I'll say, though, if you are don't join as a coffee confidant at $5 a month or a bookend friend at $15 a month, you'll get those. But we also might do some newsletters going out, maybe to for some expectations for episodes.
00:03:50
Speaker
um There'll be space to have some conversations with us. i I'm really excited about it. i Yeah. I think it's pretty cool. It's cool. um and and so And you can be part of the creation of of that space and even give some ideas for episodes and um kind of where we, yeah how the show has been impacting you and if there's stories or storytellers that have shaped your life, we want to hear about them too.
00:04:19
Speaker
So check it out. It's our Patreon. It's That's it. Raise a glass 2012 is the link. And it's in the show notes, of course.
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:35
Speaker
ah Hunter, today we're going to be talking about Captain America Winter Soldier. Yes. This is a a movie. it's been It's been a bit of time since we've done a movie, right? was the last movie? I guess so. um It's been a whole... east to i My brain just is still thinking East of Eden. I know we've done a lot of episodes since East of Eden.
00:04:56
Speaker
And then we did the Space Trilogy. But this is a... A movie that has shaped both of us, um but but we we actually saw it together for the first time.
00:05:08
Speaker
right yeah Right around this time of year, right? I guess maybe maybe it would have been May. But we'll get into that in a few minutes. So before we get there, Hunter, what is in your glass? We gotta know.
Local IPA and Captain America: Winter Soldier
00:05:21
Speaker
I have ah one of my favorite local breweries that I've found. near me is from back east brewing it's a double scoop ipa uh ice cream man ipa i think um i am normally not one for like citrusy ipa but this one is just so good it's like i don't know it's like a great marriage of ipa and creamsicle somehow it works so
00:06:04
Speaker
What's in your glass, Eric? So, if anybody here has watched the original Captain America movie and then Captain America Winter Soldier, you've noticed a couple things.
00:06:17
Speaker
Well, many things, but one of the main things you've likely noticed is that Bucky Barnes... Man, that guy got swole. He was just like an average Joe...
00:06:29
Speaker
I got this serum, too. By the second the second second movie, he is, i mean, he's only got one arm, but even his his fake arm is jacked. And so I think there's two reasons for that.
00:06:42
Speaker
One, plenty of exercise. He hit the gym. He hit the bad guys, or the good guys in our case. right He was a hit man. a Second is protein.
00:06:54
Speaker
Protein. Mm-hmm. Okay. And Hunter, when you think protein and you think drinks, what do you think?
00:07:03
Speaker
Muscle milk. I got me some ultra-filtered milkshake chocolate. Nice. Just like you called. That was very impressive. Way to go.
00:07:15
Speaker
This is the Aldi version of... I think Fairlife does a ah version yeah probably the the name brand version this. But this is the the Elevation, which is the Aldi brand.
00:07:26
Speaker
um 30 grams of protein per serving, 9 vitamins and minerals, 2 grams of total sugars, and no artificial artificial growth hormones.
00:07:38
Speaker
Which feels really weird to have to say that. really shouldn't have ended with that one um but I got me some milk
00:07:52
Speaker
it's definitely just thick chocolate milk yeah um it's fine it's like grey more than brown um
00:08:03
Speaker
but I wanted to bring something that I haven't brought before to the show. so It's a finale. It's a finale. It's a finale episode. Nothing more finale-esque than ultra-filtered milkshake.
00:08:14
Speaker
Chocolate elevation. Naturally flavored with other natural flavors. Hunter, what are you raising and pouring out for this week?
Careless People and Data Privacy
00:08:25
Speaker
Well, I'm going to kind of combine mine...
00:08:31
Speaker
Because i read this book called Careless People by Sarah Wynn Williams. And it's a memoir of her time basically working at Facebook.
00:08:45
Speaker
um From like its early days pretty And like it's the... um and like it it's all that it's but She started working there before I first joined Facebook. I got my first Facebook profile, which was in like, I want to say 2008, 2009 or something like that.
00:09:14
Speaker
um And she was there after I deleted my Facebook in like 2016 or something like that. Pre-2016 maybe. I don't know.
00:09:25
Speaker
But no, it was after. it was because of 2016 that I deleted it. But um it's also poor because it is...
00:09:40
Speaker
so she she she was close to a lot of the people in the highest positions at Facebook, including Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg and ah in the higher-ups. And she was kind of responsible for...
00:09:59
Speaker
trying to do international relations for Facebook and come up with kind of a global strategy. She was kind of an idealist and because she saw the potential that Facebook had quite early on for elections and, you know, democracy. And she came at it as from an optimistic point of view, and she was trying to get them to think about the impact that Facebook could have for the better.
00:10:31
Speaker
And, um, basically she just tries to make them do good things. She comes from the UN. That's her her background. She tries to make them, have them make good decisions about Facebook and they just don't care. Uh, and it's the amount of just negligence and selfishness. It's really, ah I'm not going to say surprising because I'm not really surprised by that these days.
00:11:01
Speaker
But, you know, it's one thing to know about it. um You know, for example, what happened in Myanmar with with Facebook and how it was used to foment hate speech and ultimately was a huge part of, like, basically a genocide is being committed.
00:11:20
Speaker
um but when you go through it step by step and she talks about how she she was trying to get them to do things, to stop this and to, ah you know, make good things, uh, try to put safeguards in place and and stuff like that.
00:11:37
Speaker
Um, and they just, they just didn't, wouldn't listen and do anything. Um, so I do recommend it. Uh, it's a pretty quick read and, um,
00:11:49
Speaker
I think it might convince you to delete your Facebook profile. Um, and, uh, it's also, I think if you're a millennial, it's also a good read cause it's kind of goes right through the beginning and the early days of Facebook, which I think only millennials remember now, um, to, to now and what Facebook has become.
00:12:13
Speaker
And, um, Yeah, so kind of a raise and a pour at the same time.
00:12:22
Speaker
So raising a glass to this book and to the author, who is, I think, in some legal battles right now with the Facebook team, because she's basically whistleblowing. um But also just pouring one out for the negligence and ah depravity and just awful atrocities on display.
00:12:46
Speaker
And I'll put some links in the show notes if you want to go deeper into, you know, I mentioned Myanmar. It's really um
00:12:56
Speaker
really heavy, um but I think, you know, it's good to be informed. there's a lot of and i don't And I don't think it's it's kind of topical to Winter Soldier, to be honest. um So we'll see.
00:13:14
Speaker
But I didn't know about the impact of Facebook in the Rohingya genocide. miama Yeah. burma That's just doing a little bit of research as you're talking about that. Please, please share more about that. That's directly impacting a lot of refugees.
00:13:29
Speaker
Um, a lot of Karen, Karen, and Rohingya refugees, um, or Christian. And then, um, I can't remember for any, uh, but then Rohingya's are Muslim.
00:13:41
Speaker
More persecuted yeah minorities in that grouping.
00:13:48
Speaker
I come at that from a different side of the conversation. Not like opposing side, just like a different entrance into the conversation. So that was... Thanks for sharing that.
00:13:59
Speaker
that Yeah. Wow. Wow.
00:14:07
Speaker
um Well, for me, I am going to pour one out for bunnies.
Rabbits, Holy Post Podcast, and Winter Soldier's Significance
00:14:14
Speaker
um I'll say I don't really understand why somebody would choose to have a rabbit as a pet, but I've got nothing opposed to that. That's fine. um But rabbits are a real jerks when it comes to gardens.
00:14:29
Speaker
They just like bite the stems off my plants and then just hop away. oh yeah They've done this on numerous occasions already this year. There's no reason for it. Nobody needs that. They're hungry.
00:14:42
Speaker
No, they don't even eat them. They just bite the stem off. They're like, what's the word for being purposely evil? Um...
00:14:54
Speaker
I don't know. Vindictive? I haven't done anything to them yet. um Yet, of course. um But I am going to raise one to something that i actually hopefully will talk about in a future episode.
00:15:09
Speaker
um I don't know we've really ever done that in a raise, but I am starting to really, really get into the Holy Post podcast Oh, so I've been listening to that too. If you haven't, if you haven't got a chance to listen to the Holy Post podcast, highly, highly, highly encourage you to do so.
00:15:29
Speaker
I just listened to the two episodes from this past year that, uh, had Brie Stensrud, S-R-U-D is the last letters. Um, she runs Women of Welcome, um, which is a group of women that,
00:15:46
Speaker
um actively support and are building kind of a coalition around supporting and caring for and loving on, um, our refugee and immigrant neighbors.
00:15:58
Speaker
Highly, highly encouraged. There's, uh, Bob Goff was on an episode recently. Yes. Yes. Um, Matt Cray, the Cray. Yeah. haven't listened that episode yet. Um, it sounds like we'll have to do a Holy post podcast episode.
00:16:12
Speaker
Alan Noble. I like Alan Noble. uh some really great people on that so and the the i kiss dating goodbye guy oh they had that person on it yeah oh that'd be fascinating yeah so holy post i was checking out their patreon recently to get some ideas for us um but i'm not a member yet so i might have to start subscribing to them to get some ideas for our episode But this this part of our conversation has already gone on much longer than, well, it's probably not longer than normal.
00:16:46
Speaker
Let's be honest. um But it's no shorter than normal. So, Adger, can you lead us into Captain America Winter Soldier? Yeah. So, it came out 2014. It was after finals when we went to see it.
00:17:07
Speaker
Um, Eric and I, I think it's safe to say that first second phase era of Marvel. We both really connected on over Captain America. He was our favorite Avenger.
00:17:20
Speaker
Um, this is like pre Spider-Man for you, right? Yes, pre-Spider-Man. um And i do I really feel that the Chris Evans, Steve Rogers is something special. Chris Evans as Steve Rogers is as good of a cast as Robert Downey Iron Man, or as um yeah or as Chadwick Boseman as this Black Panther. um Yeah.
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah, so it was directed by the Russo brothers and um basically what happens is after the Battle of New York Steve Rogers is in Washington and he's working for so for a S.H.I.E.L.D.
00:18:07
Speaker
um and he ends up um he's where he's working pretty closely with Black Widow ah Natasha Romanoff and they kind of uncover something suspicious and then um There is a big conspiracy, and I don't feel bad sharing spoilers. for and It's over a decade old now. And it's 12 years old. no Yeah. It's hard to spoil this one.
00:18:36
Speaker
But um there is a conspiracy inside S.H.I.E.L.D. turns out HYDRA, which is the organization that Steve... ah fought really hard against in World War is still alive and has grown inside of S.H.I.E.L.D. and is now enacting a coup. And their plot involves revolves around these triskelion carriers that are going to go up with guns mounted on them. And Arnim Zola, who has survived by putting his mind onto a bunch of databanks,
00:19:10
Speaker
has written an algorithm to help them choose targets uh... to eliminate who people who supposedly would be opposed to hydra's planned uh... so people who i guess would stand up for freedom or just stand up for not killing millions of people preemptively uh... and ah this Eric and I were, so that's the basic plot of Winter Soldier. And I think we could talk about more why I think the movie itself is important later. but So setting the scene, finals had finished.
00:19:51
Speaker
It was a nice day outside. We finally were able to loosen our shoulders, check, you know, and this is a movie we both had wanted to see since it came out, but neither of us had seen it. It had been over like a month, I think, at this point.
00:20:04
Speaker
and But it was still playing in theaters. And so we got a chance to go to the theater. Now, normally, when you go to a theater that late, there's nobody at the theater. But this was still a pretty full theater.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah. Right? The theater was yeah wasn't jam-packed, but I would say it was probably 75% full. Mm-hmm. And so we get in there. Loving this movie. It's going great. People are having a good time interacting with it.
00:20:31
Speaker
And we get right to the final battle scene. Yeah. When they're all flying around, Sam like flies Captain America up onto the triscallions. They're trying to reprogram them.
00:20:41
Speaker
They have to get into like the control nexus or something and switch some cards around. But ah all of a sudden, in the middle of a huge action scene with all these explosions and guns and fighting, the sound just cuts out.
00:20:57
Speaker
Completely silent. completely silent the movie just keeps playing and like for a little bit and we all were like at first like is this what it's supposed to do because we haven't seen it right it was like yeah okay like this is a cool decision by the director and then it just kept going yeah and then somebody in the theater someone was shooting a gun and he goes
00:21:24
Speaker
boom, that everyone starts doing sound effects for the movie. It felt like two or three minutes of just like straight up sound effects during this battle scene. yeah It was like, boom, no sugar but boom, boom, boom. It's one crazy part of the movie. There's just bullets flying everywhere and everything's exploding. and yeah It was incredible. Yeah, it was a lot of fun.
00:21:51
Speaker
and I think they they fixed it and then rewinded rewound it for And then we were all, so they rewound past the scene, you know, and so we started watching this again and everybody's like, Oh, I know what's going to happen next.
00:22:03
Speaker
I've never felt so bonded to a theater. Yeah. Yeah. That was great. and We did in that particular showing.
00:22:13
Speaker
And so I just, it's, it is, you're kind of saying why it's, why we're sharing it. It's it's a story that we share all the time. like It's one of my favorite stories to share with people about movies and movie theaters because it's absolutely ridiculous.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah. And it's also a really cool bonding experience for the two of us. Yeah. So as far as story, and let alone this the story itself, and we'll talk most of the rest of time about the story, but I would say that, yeah, that experience was a shaping experience ah for us. Yeah.
00:22:48
Speaker
So where do we want to start with this? Because winter soldier is, I think it marks a turning point for Marvel. Let's start there.
00:23:01
Speaker
Okay. Go for it. Um, because i think if you looked at the movies that came before winter soldier, uh, you had, you know, the, all the first phase door, Captain America, Iron Man,
00:23:15
Speaker
um going Leading up to Avengers. um And I'm trying to think... I'll
00:23:28
Speaker
to go to the wiki. Was Winter Soldier the first one after? i can't remember if it came out before... Where came out in relation to the Iron Man movies.
00:23:39
Speaker
it No, it came out after it. So it was... It was the third movie in Phase 2, after Iron Man 3 and Thor Dark World, which were both bad movies.
00:23:51
Speaker
They were both the weakest of their series. Yeah, they were not great. Avengers came out, and then Iron Man 3, and then Dark World in 2013. And those ones ah were left-outs. They just... They weren't...
00:24:07
Speaker
horrendous but they just weren't of the same quality or interest as... Yeah, they were they felt kind of like rehashes of the previous films. It's like your awkward tween phase. Marvel was trying to figure out who they were. They're like, oh these things like can work together. Maybe people really liked the last one. What if we just kind of kind of riff on these characters but like don't tell good stories?
00:24:31
Speaker
And like I would say and in a lot of people's... rankings those are probably two of the lowest yeah and then all of a sudden but and then all of a sudden winter shoulder comes out and it's like mission impossible it's like it's a spy movie this is it's not a quote-unquote superhero movie yeah it is if you look at the plot and the script and um you know it It could be just like a spy movie or an espionage movie or or kind of a thriller or something like that.
Marvel's Storytelling Evolution
00:25:08
Speaker
um
00:25:09
Speaker
so I think it represents when when Marvel realized that they didn't have to stick to the superhero formula, that they could take these characters and use tropes from other areas of cinema and and tell stories in that way and use these characters and take them to new places besides your typical heroes. Yeah. Well, they could build the world out and say, Hey, these things have impacted the world now. And so if, if Avengers happened, then there's some real fallout from this and yeah there's going to be new world orders. Like it's, it also like in many ways marked a, marked, marked a major difference between both the difference in a parallel between what was happening the Marvel universe and in,
00:25:58
Speaker
Like our universe. Yeah. Right. Because you have the Stark Tower and everything crazy that happens in Marvel and in Avengers. And then <unk> Dark World is almost entirely off world, isn't it?
00:26:11
Speaker
um I don't really remember. There's some weird stuff that happens. And then Iron Man 3 is just... and it's it's all It's fine. yes It's whatever. um the The best part about it, honestly, in my mind, are the Marvel shorts that have come out afterwards. um that's That star...
00:26:32
Speaker
The incredibly famous actor who plays the... Isn't it the Mandalorian? It's not the Mandalorian. I think his name is Mandalore or something. No, it's a Mandalorian. Is it Mandalorian? It's a Mandalorian.
00:26:47
Speaker
See, this is, this going to, don't know how this is going to track in the, in the episode itself. if This will be interesting to listen to. ah
00:26:56
Speaker
But then I guess this was not what I was planning on talking about. This is, but um yeah, Iron Man three. Guy Pearce.
00:27:08
Speaker
No, not Guy Pearce. Mandarin. Ben Kingsley is who I'm talking about. The Mandarin. The Mandarin. See, Mandalorian and Grover just came out, which is why I said that.
00:27:19
Speaker
Ben Kingsley, an incredibly famous actor. Yes. and And isn't he planning on doing... There's a TV show with him coming out playing the Mandarin. Nah. It looks hilarious.
00:27:31
Speaker
Um...
00:27:35
Speaker
But that's not the point of this conversation. I'm definitely looking this up. right. Sorry. Hunter. yeah Captain America, Winter Soldier, adds complexity to this world.
00:27:50
Speaker
Yes. ah
00:27:54
Speaker
And I honestly think it has aged pretty well. considering this came out in 2014, which is two years before the 2016 election, this ages quite well.
00:28:11
Speaker
Um,
00:28:14
Speaker
and I also think this is a finale because this has a potential to quite spicy, uh, because of the themes that the Winter Soldier explores. Um,
00:28:31
Speaker
So if I could add to that before we get to that what you're going to talk about. i i think that's related. My language for it is Captain America Winter Soldier adds shades of gray to the universe.
00:28:44
Speaker
um Whereas it was pretty cut and dry for a lot of the things who the good guy and the bad guy was. and like Or at least what the good motivations and the bad motivations were. In some of these other movies, right? And there's a lot of explosions. And you talk about the superhero theme and approach.
00:29:01
Speaker
um You know, good guy, bad guy explosions. And there's a lot of that in this. um Yeah. But so much of the movie is is Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanoff trying to figure out, with Sam Wilson, who they are.
00:29:17
Speaker
Like, what actually matters to them. Like, who they are in this new world. And what...
00:29:26
Speaker
what is good and what is bad and how to make the decisions about
00:29:34
Speaker
about what they're going to stand for and stand against when things are not as explicitly clear as World War II or as KJB, not KJB.
00:29:48
Speaker
um there's There's a couple quotes early on ah between um Captain America and Nick Fury that kind of start to take on this conversation, which I think is just makes this movie so interesting. it You kind of said a pivot, a turning point in the in the series, and allows for different genres of films like after this, but also for like things like Captain America Civil War.
00:30:25
Speaker
which like allow for like the villains to be the heroes and the heroes to be the villains. And like they're not necessarily fighting against
00:30:39
Speaker
a bad guy or trying to you know find a MacGuffin, whatever. like they're They're really trying to figure out what does it look like to be in this world and and how do you handle this amount of power when you know it's going to cause damage or it can cause major damage.
00:30:54
Speaker
And so here's the inner inner interchange between Captain America and Nick Fury.
Ethical Dilemmas in Winter Soldier
00:31:00
Speaker
um Nick Fury is saying, we're when he's talking about these triskelions, which are pretty much just, imagine a um the helicarriers from Avengers, or if you haven't seen that, then imagine a an aircraft carrier that that it can fly.
00:31:20
Speaker
Nick Fury says, we're going to neutralize a lot of threats before they happen. And Captain America responds, I thought the punishment usually comes after the crime.
00:31:32
Speaker
And then shortly after, Captain America says, this isn't freedom, this is fear. Yeah. and wrote that one down too. and and those those are a really big foreshadowing for the entire episode.
00:31:49
Speaker
storyline and it's really cool to see how Nick Fury's thoughts change yeah from the beginning to the end of this movie because by the end of the movie he's in I would say he's in agreement with with Captain America so Hunter how are we going to make this how are how is this spicy to you Where's the spiciness come Well, i think I think a good place to start would just be to talk about some scenes that have shaped us.
00:32:24
Speaker
it' In no particular order, but since you asked about spiciness, my first scene is that the car action scene with Nick Fury. Oh, that's such great scene. It's so cool. It's one that I never forgot ah you know when I first seen it. I've always remembered when I think about Winter Soldier...
00:32:41
Speaker
I think about Nick Fury and his AI car action thing. Give me the wheel. That seems so much longer than I thought. Remember it being. I remember being just like the last 30 seconds of it, but it's like a five minute scene. Oh yeah. It's so cool. So like basically it starts out.
00:32:59
Speaker
Nick Fury is rolling in a Chevy suburban. Yes. And he pulls up alongside a cop and the cop kind of looks at him. And Nick Fury kind of is like, you want to see my lease? um And the cop puts on his sirens.
00:33:20
Speaker
So Nick Fury starts to kind of ah like rolls his eyes, pulls over. And then he just gets blindsided by this truck and all these other cop cars come and they all have like automatic weapons. And this is clearly like a hit on Nick Fury. And there's, it's like so interesting, like just really kind of like ai future futuristic cool stuff like because he talks to his car to enable propulsion obviously it's not a normal car this is a shield this car is Nick Fury Chevy Suburban all
00:34:01
Speaker
also lots of Chevy placement in this movie but um
00:34:08
Speaker
ah But what I was thinking about when I was watching this, probably for the third or fourth time, is that all of the people who are attacking Nick Fury, Samuel L. Jackson, a black man, are cops.
00:34:27
Speaker
Cops wielding automatic weapons with total disregard for the safety of civilians. Yeah. Trying to kill a black man. Yeah. And this movie is spicy to me, not because of the the text necessarily, but because of the subtext.
00:34:42
Speaker
And I don't know if it's intentional or if they just kind of stumbled onto to it, probably a little bit of both. But that this scene to me is is, it's kind of like this fever dream of that gets into talking about police brutality and the recklessness recklessness that happens. And, um,
00:35:07
Speaker
real racism and violence that happens against black men and women um from the police. And this is in New York city. Like, you know, this is, it's. And it is named in the, in the the, the AI says no police are in this area. So like, let's make the note that like it is a subtext. Like it's very clear. Obviously these are Hydra agents that are not actually police, but yeah, they're dressed like police. They're in police vehicles that. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really, I hadn't thought about that. mean, maybe I had, but I hadn't,
00:35:44
Speaker
So this and this is. um And Nick Fury ends up wiping them all out. He gets away. don't He like, uh, he has his car has a machine gun that pops up. Yes. And he like shoots like all of them.
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah. And then he gets out and, but they still chase him. There's still more of them chasing him. And then he gets hit by the winter soldier. That's how they introduced the winter soldier. And then he gets out his lightsaber and cuts a hole from the ground.
00:36:16
Speaker
Yeah. He's still got that for what he was. Mace Windu. I mean, it is kind it is that's pretty much what it is. yeah Yeah, it's like some kind of plasma cutter thing and he goes into the sewers, I guess. Just a side note, at that part of the scene, in this watch, I was like, really? like Bucky, the Winter Soldier, could definitely have caught up to him.
00:36:42
Speaker
He cut the hole in the sewers like 10 seconds before he got there. And this is a clearly injured man. And you are a super soldier. Yeah.
00:36:54
Speaker
That's not not the point of the scene, but like this feels like maybe not quite. Yeah.
00:37:04
Speaker
So um I don't know how much more I have to say about that scene, but I just wanted to name that. And I think it's a good segue into the subtext of this film.
00:37:22
Speaker
Yeah. what what When you say subtext, are there other pieces or like conversations that are coming to your brain? like like I made a note. It's a scene that I didn't really think was that interesting, but the whole scene with Zoloft, where they're back at the base where...
00:37:39
Speaker
Captain America started Steve Rogers did his base camp. Yes. And they're talking to this AI. um i was like, this is this feels like a very interesting conversation for AI because this is before um Age of Ultron came out and is obviously before the big push of AI conversations now.
00:38:00
Speaker
And...
00:38:03
Speaker
and
00:38:08
Speaker
yeah i don't know i ai is you have many more thoughts on ai as a whole than i do um yeah so i mean there's a lot of different directions we could go we we could talk about sentience in the turing test or uh the use of ai in um defense and the military potential uses and risks and catastrophes.
00:38:40
Speaker
Um, so I'm to pause here. Um, there's, there's, there are different ways to watch movies. One of we, and we watch movies in different ways. and And one of the reasons I enjoy this conversation is because of kind of where it goes from there. But, um,
00:38:58
Speaker
I think a lot of people watch movies just as a release. And they watch a movie and they're not trying to think deeply about it. They watch it to enjoy it or to be scared by it. There's there's a goal of enjoyment, whether it's to scare you or surprise you or make you laugh or make you cry or make you happy or shock you, whatever it might be.
00:39:17
Speaker
like there's ah There's some type of desire there.
00:39:22
Speaker
And when you're done, you're like, that was that fulfilled that desire or it did not. And you judge based off that. We're not a ranking podcast. um That's not our interest.
00:39:34
Speaker
There's another way of watching a movie and where um
00:39:42
Speaker
you watch it. And this is kind of the way I go. And I sit and I watch it. And my goal is to just experience the universe as it is. And then to discuss with somebody about... The universe and what was happening within that and communicating around it afterwards.
00:39:57
Speaker
um It's, you know, one of the reasons why I can get surprised at turns in movies and TV shows that don't surprise other people because their their goal of watching them is to like part of that enjoyment factor is to guess what's happening.
00:40:12
Speaker
And then there's another version of watching a movie, and and these are all interrelated. They're probably overlapping circles. um that's The goal is to
00:40:28
Speaker
figure out what the movie is saying, what it's trying to what commentary it's trying to make, and how to add on to that commentary and understand that commentary.
Sam Wilson and the American Ideal
00:40:36
Speaker
um and And I was trained...
00:40:41
Speaker
in college, how to watch with the second perspective, like immersed, and then to step out and interact with it in the third perspective for writing papers and like interacting with the world, which you can catch if you watch our Godfather, listen to our Godfather episode right in one of in our first season.
00:41:03
Speaker
And so you are coming at this conversation, I think from that third area. um I'm still enjoying the second part of it.
00:41:15
Speaker
And and we'll I'm slowly moving to the third part. Some of the the notes I took down kind
00:41:23
Speaker
kind of like hint towards that third one. But it I find that it can be really interesting for people who are watching it with only that first perspective to hear a conversation.
00:41:37
Speaker
Like, oh, maybe there is more going on here. Yeah. Yeah, well, I guess my view is that there's always more going on, whether or not we're conscious of it, you know?
00:41:51
Speaker
Like, I certainly, there are media that I approach where I just want to turn my brain off and enjoy it, you know? um And I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that in moderation. um But matter what,
00:42:09
Speaker
no matter what you're watching or reading or playing or listening to, like it does shape you. And that's kind of what our podcast is about, how we interact with it and and how it shapes us. and um Okay.
00:42:28
Speaker
Well, you asked you you shared a scene. Let me share a scene. Okay. it's it's I say it's a scene. Now I'm really going to make the name. It's it's an interaction.
00:42:40
Speaker
it grows Sam Wilson. We are first introduced to Sam Wilson in this character in this movie. um Otherwise known as Falcon. I love Falcon.
00:42:51
Speaker
I love Sam Wilson. I think he is
00:42:55
Speaker
one of the most heartfelt and like whole people in the entire show. In the entire universe. like his he's not He at no point in the universe is wondering who he is.
00:43:09
Speaker
Until you start getting into the
00:43:15
Speaker
TV show. Until Cap gives up the shield. Yeah. um But even that, like he dives into it. And I think i I mean, we can talk about as maybe a different point about the holistic approach and and the way that viewers have treated Sam Wilson. Because I think he's gotten really shafted in that. Yeah.
00:43:36
Speaker
he is our first interaction. in that And then really the first thing that happens, to this movie is Sam Wilson is this guy running around the mall at DC in DC. And he keeps getting passed by, Sam, uh, Steve Rogers on your left, on your left. He goes on your left, which is is something that I say still, or on your right, I'll say one of those two. That's the thing that's taken from it.
00:43:58
Speaker
And, and you learn that Sam Wilson, after he got back from, from his tours, uh, is working at the VA now connecting with veterans and helping them experience and like talk through their trauma.
00:44:15
Speaker
yeah And that's a very real part of this movie. And it becomes a really real part of the Marvel universe, especially post blip. Right.
00:44:26
Speaker
Right. Experiencing the trauma in the way that that impacts your body is pretty real. mean, they also dive deeply into the black Panther conversation and and And Black Panther is just such a phenomenal movie.
00:44:37
Speaker
um But we then... So the one of the next interactions that Steve Rogers has with Sam is at the VA where he's overhearing some of the conversations Sam Wilson's having with some veterans around kind of what they carry back with them.
00:44:59
Speaker
And then later on... ah When they win Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanoff are like, everybody's trying to kill us. All our friends are trying to kill us. um They go to his house.
00:45:12
Speaker
and yes And he's like, yeah, of course i i'll I'll take... all ah Sorry, I've got a bug flying around.
00:45:23
Speaker
And he says, of course I'll take you in. and Then like just jumps on joining their team. And he says, says this, uh, and this is how I feel. This is how I feel. And this may be of the reasons I think about like Sam Wilson so much as I feel like in this universe, like he's the person I'd most likely He says, he says, Captain America needs my help.
00:45:48
Speaker
There's no better reason to get back in. like Of course I'm getting back in. Captain America needs my help. Um, a hundred percent would say that, uh, and And then a little bit later, when somebody's trying to...
00:46:07
Speaker
Right towards the end of the movie, when McFury's trying to get them to follow him to help track down the extra Hydra agents, Steve's like, I need to go do something before... you I can't help you. And so McFury looks at Sam Wilson, and Sam Wilson says...
00:46:27
Speaker
He says this. I do what he does. Just slower. And I just...
00:46:41
Speaker
That's just beautiful. right That's... that's
00:46:49
Speaker
That's what I feel like it it looks like. that That is ultimately the reason why he was chosen by Captain America, by Steve Rogers to be next Captain in America. um Because what matters is your heart and approach.
00:47:06
Speaker
yeah Because the the dream of America
00:47:13
Speaker
held in an ideal of how you live and approach others. Not in how, and and within that, how you wield your own strength and power, right? And who you choose to wield it for or why.
00:47:32
Speaker
And the motives and the heart of Sam Wilson better than anybody else.
00:47:49
Speaker
At least anybody else in the Marvel universe who's from America, you know, are a fully, there's a wisdom there, there's a maturity there, and there's a dedication towards others, um not with a self-righteous or prideful gain, but with a humility and sincerity a sincerity
00:48:23
Speaker
that it's just, it's just wonderful.
00:48:27
Speaker
Yeah. That's my side on Sam Wilson that, where do you stand on that? What do you think about that? under I think that's great. I, thank you, Eric. Um, to be honest, I haven't thought about Sam Wilson that much, you know, I did watch, I think like the first season of, um,
00:48:50
Speaker
I only gave them one season. The Captain... Which was it? Captain American Falcon or something. Winter Soldier. Captain American and the Winter Soldier or something like that.
00:49:01
Speaker
um
00:49:04
Speaker
And... ah i don't know. i I didn't feel like the writers were like up to the task. um There were interesting parts of it, but then... It got better. Every episode got better, but it was...
00:49:19
Speaker
It almost felt like the first season of that show should have been a movie. um And then from what I've tell been able to tell about the movie that came after it, it should have been a TV show. They flipped it.
00:49:30
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't seen it. but
00:49:36
Speaker
But I loved what you what you shared. i I think I've shared this before. I really appreciate your... ability to to immerse yourself like i almost envy it because am so jaded and um especially when it comes to marvel like after endgame i just i kind of fell off and um endgame was so good yeah and i mean that was yeah it was a natural ending and
00:50:12
Speaker
therere there are fun things that happen and and i like Spider-Man, you know, but it's like, it just doesn't feel like it's really for me and anymore. You know, it's, um, and it's hard not to be cynical and, um, especially when our politics have gotten more real, you know?
00:50:34
Speaker
Um, and I think that's honestly part of it is like, it's is' not as much fun for me to,
00:50:40
Speaker
to escape into something like Marvel. Um,
00:50:46
Speaker
and, but I really appreciate what you say about Sam Wilson. Cause I think that's true. That's true to captain America because Steve was chosen not for his prowess or his skill or his strength.
00:51:01
Speaker
He was chosen because he was a good person. Yeah. Because they believed if they gave him power, he would do the right thing. Mm-hmm. And especially in these times, I feel like that's more relevant than ever.
00:51:16
Speaker
And especially after reading this book about people in power at Facebook, like, you know, if you don't have integrity and character and a sense of responsibility to the world and to other people, a sense of charity and grace, um,
00:51:39
Speaker
you're not going to get it after you're given power. That's true. That's not something that comes. It's not going to come naturally unless there's, you know, if there's someone before all the sycophants come, if there's someone who confronts you and gives you an opportunity to grow, then maybe you can start to develop that sense of responsibility.
Humor in Cultural Touchstones
00:52:00
Speaker
But at a certain point, when you start to amass so much money and influence that,
00:52:06
Speaker
that you can just fire everyone who disagrees with you, and you know, you're not going to learn it. It's too late. ah You know, I like to hope all things, you know, at a certain point, everyone is redeemable, but.
00:52:24
Speaker
I deeply believe that everybody is. Oh, I do. I do believe that too. I just, I just mean that, you know, if you don't have that sense of character and integrity before it's, it's not,
00:52:35
Speaker
very likely that you're going to develop it after you get the character. And I think that's kind of what Captain America is about, at least in the MCU. Um, when you think about Steve's origins and Sam Wilson really typifies that, you know, I feel like he's, he is the natural successor.
00:52:53
Speaker
um and I haven't seen the new movie. I really hope the writers can bring that out, honestly, because I think it would be really beautiful, um, to see.
00:53:08
Speaker
So we named Zolov. We named Sam Wilson. move that But we haven't talk too much about haven't talked at all about Bucky Barnes. We've talked a little bit about Natasha, a little bit about Nick Fury.
00:53:22
Speaker
um Not that the goal is to talk about every single character, but is there a scene that sticks out to you that you want highlight it for the next part of our conversation? Yeah, i I got a couple of fun things.
00:53:34
Speaker
You know, before we get into other things, um one is the list that Steve Rogers has. Write it down. So ah when Sam and Steve meet the first time, ah Sam Wilson tells him to listen to the Trouble Man soundtrack by Marvin Gaye because he missed it when he was asleep. And Steve pulls out a notebook and he's like, all right, adding it to the list. He's got a list of things written down. I Love Lucy, Moon Landing, Berlin Wall, parentheses, up and down, Steve Jobs, parentheses, Apple, Disco, Thai Food, Star Wars, which is X'd off, slash Trek, Nirvana, parentheses, Band, Rocky, parentheses, Rocky II, question mark.
00:54:26
Speaker
So what's funny about that is in the special features interview with was a director or somebody, but what they did for that is in different regions, they, they changed the list. Oh, really?
00:54:40
Speaker
Yeah. Like in different countries or? Yeah. In different countries, they would have different things on the list and they actually put out surveys in the countries to ask them what was important, like culturally important during those years. So like in Germany, I think they had a Oktoberfest in Latin America. They had like Shakira, um,
00:55:03
Speaker
In Russia, they had disco. ah I guess disco is like important to Russian culture. Love that. and And the famous astronaut. Got to get me a good cosmonaut.
00:55:16
Speaker
In Australia, they had Tim Tams.
00:55:21
Speaker
ah Yeah, so it's kind of funny. um I've loved the question... When you look at that list, that ah his head might have really blown up when he watched Star trek star Wars and saw Samuel l Jackson as Mace Windu.
00:55:38
Speaker
He's wait, I thought that was Nick Fury. yeah
00:55:48
Speaker
Yeah. um
00:55:53
Speaker
Yeah, so I guess another... fun thing. Actually, there's a line in there that, uh, I think gets into, Oh, I guess I also had like the Steve and Natasha ship, um, which I don't really ship, but I do think that the relationship is pleasant in this movie.
00:56:20
Speaker
Like it's very, they're friends. yeah It's cool. It's cool that they're friends. Um, um they they they were like trying i think They were trying to be like, hey, could this turn into a ra romance in this series? and
00:56:35
Speaker
There was no natural connection between the two of them. it didn't really make Outside of like friendship. That friendship made sense. yeah but like Which I think was actually is important to nasha Natasha's growth.
00:56:47
Speaker
To both their growth. Actually, you honestly to be honest, neither them heather have friends. um yeah and so like This gives them a friend. Or a second friend. I will say, I thought the the choreography of them, when somebody throws a grenade into that room when they're on the ship, and like Steve grabs her, and then she shoots out the window, and they dive through the window. That was super cool. like That was awesome choreography. There were some pretty cool saves in this movie, like with Captain America. like Also, like when the...
00:57:19
Speaker
the The car gets shot up and he like jumps out holding on to Natasha Romanoff and Sam Wilson. And like he's sliding with Natasha and like Sam Wilson like lands and like then like barrel rolls to stay safe.
00:57:36
Speaker
Yeah. Also the scene with the Quinjet when Captain America takes it out on his motorbike. Oh yeah. I was just like... Don't you know who I am? I'm Captain America.
00:57:49
Speaker
All you need is a motorcycle and a shield and you can take down the entire jet plane. Oh, the elevator scene. Okay, we've got to talk about the elevator scene. so um One thing that you might not know about me...
Defining Captain America's Identity
00:58:03
Speaker
if you don't know me personally, is that I have a long time been a fan of Captain America. Do you still have the life-size cutout? trying to find So my bachelor party, just almost coming on eight years ago, Hunter and a few other guys got me a life-size cutout of Captain America.
00:58:27
Speaker
to act as the robber for a game of Settlers Catan that they made that was life-size. Which maybe we can do a ah live episode in the future where we try to video ourselves playing life-size Settlers of Catan.
00:58:42
Speaker
um And, oh my goodness, I love it so much. He's still around. i was trying to find him. I kept thinking he was real when I walked past. Oh yeah, he scared many We were staying in that place.
00:58:56
Speaker
I've got many a good scares from people off off of him. um it's I had a Captain America poster throughout some of college in this movie. and so Always a fan of Captain America. I think it's part of the reason why like Sam Wilson so much.
00:59:15
Speaker
um is because i think Again, I've already shared that. I think he embodies but Captain America really well. um and One of the most iconic captain america scenes in the marvel universe is the elevator scene it's in fact so iconic that they parallel it in endgame um and so he gets into this elevator before we get started and all these guys walk in like kind of you know
00:59:48
Speaker
Coincidentally, and he's like paying enough attention that he's like, no, these guys are about to like, we're about to have a throw down here. And if you watch the first Captain America movie, and even Avengers, it's like, is Captain America really a superhero?
01:00:07
Speaker
Or is he just like a really strong guy who gets lucky and has a a cool shield? And then you hit Captain America Winter Soldier, where it starts with him jumping out of an airplane without a chute, and then into the water, and then like it just crazy.
01:00:25
Speaker
And then you end up with this elevator scene, where he is taken on, what dozen guys in the elevator who are trying to take him down, who are all HYDRA, and it's...
01:00:36
Speaker
A ridiculously cool fight scene because it's all happening within like 16 square feet. Yeah. And maybe maybe a little bit more. um And then he destroys all of them.
01:00:53
Speaker
And he gets he's going to get out and then people start shooting at him realizes, okay, he's got to figure out a different way out of this elevator. And so he eventually just... jumps out of the elevator. He uses his shield and like plummets out of it like 15 stories through another glass ceiling onto the ground.
01:01:13
Speaker
And the guy who's from Hydra working in the main space is just like, He's just, his face is like, he just, he's alive. He just jumped out of, and like, he ends up on a motorcycle and like, takes down this entire Quinjet, like you named.
01:01:33
Speaker
And it's just like, absolutely insane. And then he goes back to his house, right? Doesn't he go back to his house after that? Yeah, I think i think he finds Fury at his house, yeah.
01:01:53
Speaker
which is I thought the fight scene on the ship between him and Batroc, who's like the main guy. i don't know if you know this, but Batroc is kind of a two-bit villain that they brought in and kind of changed a little bit to make him fit.
01:02:08
Speaker
ah He's called Batroc the Leaper. Yeah. He's been in Spider-Man and his thing is that he can jump really high. um Which is, I just thought the fight scene was so dumb because Cap like punches him in the head.
01:02:22
Speaker
And I was like, um I feel like if Cap punched you in the head, your skull would be fractured. Like, there's just no... And it's it's also funny if you play any superhero video games like Batman or Spider-Man. And you'll see, you'll do like a counter and Spider-Man will just like completely body this guy. And he's like, yeah, he's he's not dead. Yeah.
01:02:46
Speaker
he's definitely not dead he just got hit by a freight train in the stomach like but he's not i didn't kill him i'm a superhero captain america knows his own strengths okay he very clearly knows his own strengths uh so when he punches he's able to punch it with the right amount of velocity to to the right amount of time um
01:03:15
Speaker
We were introduced in this movie to a a something that is very true across all Marvel movies, and that's not note that no one's ever actually dead. Right. And so both Bucky and Fury are supposedly dead at different points.
01:03:31
Speaker
Bucky Barnes, you know, in Captain America, he comes back as this winter soldier spy from Russia, killing everybody. And then... Nick Fury um dies, but doesn't actually die in this movie. yeah um I think Bucky Barnes' character brings a lot of really interest to a lot of interest, honestly, through this movie to the to Captain America Civil War.
Bucky Barnes and Future Conflicts
01:03:59
Speaker
who Because this movie, Captain America Civil War, the tension in that movie doesn't make sense without this movie. Because it it really leans into this fight between...
01:04:12
Speaker
Captain America and Iron Man based off the fact that Bucky Barnes is the one that killed Iron Man's parents. Spoilers. ah And nobody knows that until this movie. In fact, Nick Fury doesn't even know that Bucky Barnes is still alive.
01:04:30
Speaker
And so from there, we end up with this... this question of of who Hydra is and what does it look like and and for Hydra to exist and what are its goals?
01:04:41
Speaker
um And the the conversation with Marlon Zolov, who is now an AI, is sharing that the goal of Hydra is always about you know being able to bring control into chaos.
01:05:03
Speaker
um And what they they learned through World War II is that people don't want to have their um freedom taken away from them.
01:05:16
Speaker
They'll fight against you. Forcibly. But the goal over the last 50, 60 years has been to move humanity to a point where they would willingly sacrifice their freedom to gain security. Right.
01:05:31
Speaker
is the language. And I'm going to guess it's from that line that you're going to bring some more spice into this episode. Yeah. So, uh, my, I watched this with my wife, uh, a couple days ago and she immediately thought of Ben Franklin's famous quote.
01:05:51
Speaker
Um, those who would give up a central Liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
01:06:05
Speaker
And i think I've heard variations of it where ah those who would give up some liberty for a little security deserve neither and would lose both.
01:06:17
Speaker
um
01:06:20
Speaker
And
01:06:23
Speaker
what is interesting about this to me is I'm going to so cite this NPR article article um is that the the original context of Ben Franklin's quote is um actually about a tax dispute ah between Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Pens. And NPR brought in a ah I think he's a professor, he's an expert on this story and that's who I'm quoting from.
01:07:03
Speaker
Benjamin Witts, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and the editor of Lawfare. And the interesting thing is that the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands in Pennsylvania to pay frontier defense during the French and Indian War.
01:07:24
Speaker
And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. um Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislator to govern.
01:07:35
Speaker
And so he actually meant purchase temporary safety, like literally. um The Penn family was trying to give up a... right They were trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the legislature acknowledging that they didn't have the authority to tax it.
01:07:57
Speaker
So the Penn family was basically trying to just give money because they didn't want to be taxed in the future is the way that I'm understanding this. um And so if you think about the quote, those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, neither deserve neither liberty nor
Liberty, Privacy, and American Ideals
01:08:20
Speaker
safety. So in trying to purchase the Penn family and trying to take this deal from the Penn family,
01:08:27
Speaker
um They're trying to purchase temporary safety because they could use the money to fund defense in the French and Indian War.
01:08:38
Speaker
But ah if they do that, then it's only temporary safety because then they're establishing the precedent that the Penn family cannot be taxed.
01:08:50
Speaker
And so it's only it's only temporary safety. And so this quote is actually kind of like pro-defense spending, like spending defense spending money on defense, using the people's taxes for the defense of of liberty.
01:09:08
Speaker
And this to me, the loops that your mind has to go through really gets into ah theme of that I'm going to try and bring, ah that I think the winter soldier gets into, which is a duality in America between
01:09:33
Speaker
what we dream and what the reality of our country is. Okay.
01:09:46
Speaker
Because this quote has been used to, ah kind of has been used against tech companies.
01:09:56
Speaker
And when we talk about data privacy and things like that, um when you use something like Facebook, it's not free. Right.
01:10:07
Speaker
it's not free because they are mining your, your data, your personal data, uh, your birthday, your name, what the things that you like, uh, your, your purchases, anything they can get their hands on. Basically they are using that data and selling it advertisers and they're making money off of you and your friends, um, and your words and everything you post on there, making it, they're making money off you They're selling it. Um,
01:10:36
Speaker
So it's not free. And so this quote has been used to say, okay, you know, if you are, if you're willing to give that up for a little bit of temporaries, I guess in this case is actually more like convenience or enjoyment or safety is something, something, um, connection, I guess. Um,
01:10:59
Speaker
then you, you don't deserve liberty, you know, deserve actual freedom. It's not actual, actually free. um but But the original quote by Ben Franklin is kind of like ah almost pro-government in in the sense that he's trying to prevent them from giving away their ability to tax people for government.
01:11:27
Speaker
defense spending. And this ties into the Winter Soldier because the Winter Soldier is about like the military industrial complex and defense spending. like How much do Traskelions cost?
01:11:40
Speaker
h A lot. yeah Millions and billions of dollars. um And you know you think about President Trump asking for like a $90 billion dollar for ice, a budget for ice.
01:11:55
Speaker
And he's asking for even more, like just, just to like, just think about your salary in relation to $90 billion. dollars Like it's, it's insane.
01:12:08
Speaker
And defense spending is, is insane. If you think about the fact that Trump is cutting like aid funds and stuff, like, um,
01:12:20
Speaker
trying to cut SNAP and things. SNAP is like a minuscule portion of the the federal budget when you compare it to how much we just spend on fence. And if you think about starting this war in Iran, how much missiles cost and how much money has been wasted.
01:12:39
Speaker
And that's not even talking about the lives and of of American soldiers and also innocent people in Iran and in the war zone. Like this, this is, this is where it gets spicy.
01:12:57
Speaker
Um, that's not the right word. That's a bad word for that, but it's real. Is what you're trying say? It gets real. Yes. Um, and I want to, I want to talk about duality because I think that Franklin's quote is true in a certain sense.
01:13:18
Speaker
Um, And I also think about the the national anthem, our national anthem. um My favorite rendition of our natural national anthem is Jimi Hendrix at Woodstock it took playing the national anthem.
01:13:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, I'm telling you. just it's it's a whole it's it's amazing go listen to it he's playing through 200 watt marshals like through like chords that could like electrocute him and everyone on this it's it's like it's people don't do that anymore and what he does is he plays so distorted and thinks and he plays the national anthem the thing about our national anthem is that the tune is really good.
01:14:06
Speaker
Like the melody is so bombastic and like dramatic. It's just sounds really good to listen to. um and he plays it on electric guitar. And then in between, he does stuff with the fuzz and the whammy bar and and like dive bombing to like punctuate. and this is during the Vietnam War. He's punctuating like this. He's trying to mimic the sound of like bombs falling.
01:14:34
Speaker
And, you know, in being on there dropping napalm and stuff and people dying. And he's just like, he's melding it together with this narrative of our country and our national anthem. And our national anthem itself is like that because the verse that we sing is one verse in a poem that was written. And the tune is set to a British, it's a British drinking song is the tune.
01:15:00
Speaker
And if you go and you read the other lyrics of the national anthem, there's, there's racist lyrics in, uh, the tooth, the third verse.
01:15:12
Speaker
Um, I guess it's not quite as on the nose as detractors would want it to be, but it's definitely problematic.
01:15:24
Speaker
Um,
01:15:28
Speaker
It's basically trying triumphing over the blood of the hireling and the slave. um And if you think about our country's history
01:15:41
Speaker
with racism, and ah one thought I had watching The Winter Soldier when Cap is talking to Sam, and Sam tells him to put Trouble Man on his list, and and Steve kind of lists off like differences. you know He's like...
01:15:56
Speaker
Yeah, there's no there's no polio. Like, internet is ah internet so helpful. is great. Like, the unspoken thing here is Steve is from an era before the Civil Rights Movement.
01:16:13
Speaker
And
01:16:17
Speaker
he's talking to a black man. Yeah.
01:16:40
Speaker
I'm hearing conversations of government, of who the U.S. is, of like undercurrents of race. You talked earlier in your Raisin Poor about Facebook and social media the impacts of that.
01:17:04
Speaker
the
01:17:07
Speaker
As the movie goes on, the characters that are
01:17:17
Speaker
we find out to be Hydra, they become more clearly evil. Right. Early on, theyre they're you them as characters, it's kind of hard to tell them from other people.
01:17:33
Speaker
And then even when you hear their motives, like you hear Nick Fury saying... I said this earlier, we're going to neutralize a lot of threats before they happen. was talking about this idea of killing people before they do anything wrong.
01:17:49
Speaker
yeah Or imprisoning them, or whatever might be. and you know Captain America is the one guy that's like saying, hey, that's that doesn't seem right. doesn't seem like the right thing, but he's like trying to figure out himself.
01:18:02
Speaker
He's trying to figure out who he is, and I think he's he's built himself on this idea of, like I don't feel like this is the right thing, but I don't know. And one of the reasons I don't know is because I can't tell based off the people around me if they're good or bad.
01:18:17
Speaker
When I interact with them, I don't know if they're they have just motives, if their goal is the be the betterment of people. and And he actually goes to... one of Another one of the best characters in the entirety of the Marvel Universe, Peggy Carter. Right. who the the The TV show Agent Carter is maybe one we'll do in the future.
01:18:38
Speaker
um Just a wonderful, incredible TV show. um And a great character. and he interacts with her as she has dementia. She's, you know... um Older. Anyway, she lived a whole life. and And he's talking with her. he's like, I don't i don't know.
01:18:59
Speaker
I don't know what to do. I need help. And like she points him back to himself. um And as he becomes more sure of himself, the motivations of the antagonist become clearer.
01:19:20
Speaker
And he... more fully embodies the American ideal. So I'll give you a visual understanding of that. But before I do that, I want to i want to share that.
01:19:33
Speaker
I've had some conversations with with individuals in the last year or two about about America and who is America. And there's a lot of questions. This is especially a thing that was, a lot of people were asking this type of question and feeling the frustrations and anger and challenges of this when we were seeing everything that was happening in Minneapolis in the fall of 2025 through the winter of 2026. And one of the that remained pretty to
01:20:01
Speaker
and one of the things that remained pretty clear to me is that this experiment or this idea of the United States is going to, the the moment,
01:20:18
Speaker
the moment what do try to say? In the midst of all of this, Both sides of political aisle, I think we're still holding, least verbally, and there's a dual consciousness thing, we're saying one thing and acting different way. Double think. Double think is kind of what you named there.
01:20:37
Speaker
Like, have this idea of what could be true and is true of this country, of it being a community ah a country of freedom and liberty and justice for all.
The Cost of Freedom and Heroism
01:20:48
Speaker
Yeah.
01:20:50
Speaker
And there is, even though there's complete disagreement on so many things, and we both find ourselves you know landing on certain sides of these conversations in different spaces, um there's still an agreement of what this country is supposed to be.
01:21:09
Speaker
of what the dream of this country is. There's different very different ideas of what that dream will look like when it's filled. Well, filled maybe, and and kind of examples of of that. But it's still a very similar dream.
01:21:23
Speaker
And it's once that dream is lost,
01:21:29
Speaker
this country's done. um once Once Americans no longer believe in the idea... of what America could be. And and but by that, I mean like what comes to your mind about what the ideals of this country are, right? The, the, what we see written on the Statue of Liberty, what we, what we have heard from parents or grandparents or great grandparents, as far as, you know, maybe not how they were welcomed, but the life they were able to build in this country, what we, what we think about when we watch things like Hamilton and, and, you know, and read about the goals of the constitution and the amendments, right? These are beautiful things. They're fully messed up and there's so much messiness and brokenness and sin and systemic issues in the midst of this.
01:22:13
Speaker
Like other people around the world, they don't, they don't hold that same dream of America anymore. Now, some people might, But like I think as a whole, like a lot of people are like, no, this is very clearly not who the United States is.
01:22:29
Speaker
But we still hold that view. And Captain America as a character, whether it's Steve Rogers or Sam Wilson in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, like embody that possibility, that future hope.
01:22:46
Speaker
In fact, when other people pick up the shield... They do not embody that. Like, Bucky Barnes could not be Captain America. yeah Especially Winter Soldier. But I would make a very strong argument even later. Like, because of who he was and how that still holds him back as to who he is. Now, that does not necessarily agree with my theological viewpoint.
01:23:12
Speaker
but within the cinematic universe, um I think that ties to the argument there. And so with that kind of idea, this idea of the dream of the United States and Captain America more fully understanding who he is as this movie is going on, and Natasha Romanoff does as well.
01:23:34
Speaker
She's really fighting with who her identity is. At the beginning of this movie, if you look at... Steve Rogers' wardrobe. He's wearing very dark and muted colors.
01:23:47
Speaker
He still has a very similar... a He's still got the star, but it's everything is like shades of gray. It's pretty dark. um there's There's no bright red. and like' Part of that is like yes it's part of like the cover covert co-opt you know covert mission on the on the shield boat.
01:24:05
Speaker
um But he kind of continues to wear that. But if you notice... the very end of the movie, and this is where we get our wonderful Stan Lee cameo, he goes back and he steals his... or he takes back his original uniform.
01:24:22
Speaker
And so by the end of the movie, he is wearing the bright red, white, and blue uniform of Captain America.
01:24:35
Speaker
and he is... his actions... follow that like assuredness. He knows who he is. He knows what he stands for. And he's willing to stand for that.
01:24:48
Speaker
Even if that will lead to his death. And what, one of the climactic moment in this movie is him after they've they've taken down the helicarriers or the triskelion, whatever.
01:25:01
Speaker
um he helps save Bucky Barnes who has had his mind wiped so many times. He doesn't know who he is. Um, And he throws down his shield.
01:25:14
Speaker
It ends up in the water. And Bucky Barnes, the Winter Soldier, is just like beating up on him. And like you see it. You can see it on his face. He is bruised.
01:25:27
Speaker
He's broken... And he says a line to Bucky Barnes that Bucky Barnes had said to him, we see in a flashback, back to when Steve Rogers' parents had died.
01:25:38
Speaker
And Steve is saying, hey, I can do it by my own. and And Bucky says, hey but you don't have to. like I'm with you to the end of the line. And he has this moment now where he's saying this to Bucky Barnes.
01:25:54
Speaker
He said, I'm with you to the end of the line. And like this is coming after a scene where Sam... has talked to him like, hey, like he's going to be there. you know You know Bucky's going to be there. and like He's not the type of guy you save. He's the type of guy you put down. and He wasn't saying that out of anger, out of like you know even a lack of trust.
01:26:18
Speaker
um and Steve's like, i don't know I don't think I can do that. He's... and he's allows himself to just get beaten up.
01:26:31
Speaker
He says, I'm with you to the end of the line. And he ends up falling into the water. And you can see at the end, Bucky picks him up and puts him on the shore. um And, and the one thing I'll add to this, cause I missed it in the timeline. Cause I didn't write it in my notes during the movie. I was just too engrossed in it by that point.
01:26:51
Speaker
um Is when they first break back into shield headquarters, yeah Captain America gives a speech. yeah Do you have that speech written out?
01:27:03
Speaker
I do have the speech. I got it. okay you got the street can you Can you read that for us? Alright.
01:27:10
Speaker
Got big shoes to fill.
01:27:14
Speaker
Attention, all S.H.I.E.L.D. agents. This is Steve Rogers. You've heard a lot about me over the last few days. Some of you were even ordered to hunt me down.
01:27:27
Speaker
but I think it's time you know the truth. S.H.I.E.L.D. is not what we thought it was. It's been taken over by HYDRA. Alexander Pierce is their leader. The Strike and Inside crew are HYDRA as well.
01:27:40
Speaker
I don't know how many more, but I know they're in the building. They could be standing right next to you. They almost have what they want. Absolute control. They shot Nick Fury and it won't end there.
01:27:54
Speaker
If you launch those helicarriers today, Hydra will be able to kill anyone that stands in their way, unless we stop them. I know I'm asking a lot, but the price of freedom is high.
01:28:05
Speaker
It always has been. And it's a price I'm willing to pay. And if I'm the only one, then so be it. But I'm willing to bet I'm not.
01:28:16
Speaker
just got shivers as you read that. i Because the scenes after that is... is um one of the guys from Hydra, like, putting a gun to the head and saying, hey, of of a random person whose job it is to hit the button to release the um the carriers.
01:28:37
Speaker
And it's like, no, I can't. Like, I won't i won't do it. Like, on orders of of of the captain, or of my captain, And like, it's just caps orders. And like, I just like, I feel it emotionally when I, when I say that, when I think of that scene, um because it's yeah honestly, I think it's because it's ingrained in me of like, that's what it, that's part of what it means to be American is like protecting the cost of freedom for others at the cost of your life.
01:29:14
Speaker
if you need to. yeah And i I think that that is that aspect of like part of like what means to be an American is, is there is really good backing for that in, in scripture.
01:29:28
Speaker
Like, I think that's the, think there's a good reason why that connects with us as people. Cause you know, maybe God did the same thing. He calls us to live that way.
01:29:39
Speaker
ah But it's, It's beautiful and it stands so far against
01:29:49
Speaker
this idea that we would sacrifice freedom to gain security. Because in response to that speech, so many people S.H.I.E.L.D. try to offer air support or take down Hydra agents and are just brutally killed.
01:30:07
Speaker
like It's a really devastating scene to watch. um and And yet, it's like, those are... I'm getting shivers. aru I don't know if I'm really goosebumps here. like Those are the heroes. like That's what it means to be... like that That is why...
01:30:30
Speaker
That is the resolution of this movie. like Everything is fuzzy. like Nick Fury like thinks he knows what's right but isn't fully sure. Natasha Romanoff thinks she knows what's right and then becomes really clear she's not sure what's right.
01:30:41
Speaker
Cap has his gut feeling of this is right but he can't justify why he thinks that. and He has this conversation with Peggy Carter and then he talks with Sam Wilson and he enters this last scene and he's like, I know what is right.
01:30:54
Speaker
And that scene cements it for others. And it comes at a cost. It comes at a very high cost in this in this movie.
01:31:07
Speaker
um it It comes at a very high cost in our culture at this particular time to speak truth into power, truth to power, and into moments of like... It's very messy and very confusing right now.
01:31:26
Speaker
And... taking a stand on anything is a very scary thing to do. Like, not just because you, if you're, know, you'll lose influence among people.
01:31:38
Speaker
i think most of us aren't actually at the space where losing influence is really going to do anything for us because we might not have enough to begin with. Like, we're going to have fights in our family.
01:31:49
Speaker
We're going to have a friendship hurt. Um, there's going to be a brokenness in a relationship that we don't know if we can see healed. Uh, But it's for standing up for freedom.
01:32:02
Speaker
It's for standing up for what we know to be right. Even if we don't understand the full complexities of why what's happening is wrong.
01:32:22
Speaker
Andrew, what do you think about all of that? I kind of went on this idea of what it means to be American, of of freedom, of standing up. is this Is this connect with your watching of this? Do you feel like there's hope in that?
01:32:39
Speaker
Yes. i So I'm going to try to keep this tied to the movie because I think there's a conversation about deconstruction to be had.
01:32:52
Speaker
Um, this occurred to me when Steve went back to where he came from, the, the training center where they, they meet Arnim, Dola, Steve, they'd actually do a whole thing where Steve sees his younger self marching past. no Um, my personal journey with this film,
01:33:16
Speaker
when I listened to that speech, i was like very moved, And um if you knew me in high school and college,
01:33:27
Speaker
um
01:33:31
Speaker
I was more rigid, I think, in my approach to politics. um I won't say I was partisan, but I definitely had a more rosy view of who I thought... I you know i thought that the people who said...
01:33:52
Speaker
that they were Christian, were Christian. yeah I gave them good faith, you know, um the Mike Huckabees and those kind of guys.
01:34:04
Speaker
um
01:34:07
Speaker
And the 2016 election for me
01:34:14
Speaker
was a time of disillusionment where um not going to name names or anything like that. And and I want to be clear when I talk about this that i
01:34:29
Speaker
love people that I disagree with. I still believe that they're children of God. that um But I think they're wrong. And I saw people that I loved, I respected in my church, elders, start to support Trump.
01:34:48
Speaker
And I could not understand how they could support someone. I still remember the first things that I heard about Trump. He was talking about um immigration.
01:35:01
Speaker
And he was talking about they're not bringing their best people. He's talking about Hispanic immigrants, I think. And and I was just like, this is just so clear. How can you not see this?
01:35:17
Speaker
um when someone says, these people are not bringing their best people and they need to get out, build a wall. It's like, there's no...
01:35:31
Speaker
And I think what I think now is is not that people didn't see that. and And you have to understand that coming from a Christian background, Jesus says to love your neighbor as yourself. This is Luke 10...
01:35:45
Speaker
the parable the Good Samaritan, 25 through 37. thirty seven these These are people who profess to follow the way of Jesus.
01:36:01
Speaker
And um the way of Jesus is to love your neighbor as yourself.
01:36:10
Speaker
And ah in the parable of the Good Samaritan... uh, in, in Luke 10, 25 through 37, um,
01:36:21
Speaker
um Jesus talks about this and he says, uh, someone asks him what is written in a law. And Jesus says the sum of the law is to love your neighbor as yourself.
01:36:33
Speaker
To love God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Yes. Um, And then the person kind of comes back and he's like, well, who's my neighbor?
01:36:47
Speaker
Um, and Jesus tells a story of the good Samaritan where there is a man going, he's traveling from Jerusalem to Jericho and he's attacked by robbers. They steal everything he owns and they leave him for dead.
01:36:59
Speaker
And then a priest comes by and he passes by on the other side. Maybe he's scared or I don't know. And then, um a Levite comes by who is kind of like a scholar in the Jewish law. They would have been like saying, like saying like a pastor walked by and passed by on the other side. Uh, and then a Samaritan came by and Samaritans were pretty hated at the time by, um the Jewish people who Jesus was talking to.
01:37:38
Speaker
um, it It was a long-running feud that went back a long way. um And the Samaritan stops, and he takes care of the man. And he brings him to an inn, and he tells the innkeeper he pays the innkeeper and it tells tells the innkeeper to look after him.
01:38:00
Speaker
And he says, oh I'll reimburse you for any extra expense you might have. And so Jesus purposely tells a story telling people to love their neighbor, the people that they think are not bringing their best people or um the people on the other side of the aisle, the people that you don't like.
01:38:30
Speaker
Yeah.
01:38:36
Speaker
and And in 2016, I just could not reconcile this. And I want to shout out Alan Noble, who talks about deconstruction in his book, To Live Well.
01:38:47
Speaker
And he says, there is a sense we have to define this word deconstruction because we use it in in many different ways. When some people talk about deconstruction, they talk about destroying everything that has come before. And they talk about this in Winter Soldier. They have a conversation with Nick Fury,
01:39:07
Speaker
And they're talking about like deleting the data or something. And, uh, cap is like, no, everything has to go. yeah Like we need to remake this from the ground up. Like you cannot try and save anything from shield. Like shield has to go and something else, something new needs to be there. Um, and so, so,
01:39:33
Speaker
deconstruction is talked about in the destructive sense where you, where you destroy everything before, but then there's another kind of decent deconstruction where it's taking the things that you believe in and, and the way that you act in your culture and things and questioning them to find which is true and good and helpful and which is not.
01:39:59
Speaker
And sort of, and changing your views and maybe not changing everything that you believe, but reevaluating what you might've believed before, what you might've been told to
Social Media and Political Extremism
01:40:15
Speaker
believe. And I think that that kind of deconstruction is healthy.
01:40:20
Speaker
And I believe that's the kind of deconstruction that I went went through and in a certain sense, I'm still going through, um because there were people on Facebook.
01:40:33
Speaker
And this is part of the reason why I deleted Facebook after the 2016 election. i you know I would post things um about about hate speech um and stuff. I believe I posted one about, i think Trump made some comments about Muslims, and I found a quote from George Bush during 9-11 where he was telling people not to attack mosques and things like that and trying to discourage hate speech about Muslims during 9-11.
01:41:09
Speaker
And i had I had people from totally different areas of my life arguing in the comments section about Islam and Islamophobia and and echoing things from their different sides.
01:41:28
Speaker
um And I think social media has has, the internet, the sort of anonymization of the internet allows people to say things that they would not say in person um and express the more extreme views, and especially Facebook. Facebook encourages extremity because Their only goal is to grow.
01:41:51
Speaker
And what gets the most what gets the most views and the most engagement is extreme content. um And ah there's a whole conversation in Careless People about how ah Facebook really contributed to Donald Trump getting elected and how they utilized all of Facebook's ad targeting tools to spread misinformation.
01:42:18
Speaker
and, uh, get, get voters to turn the swing states and stuff. Um,
01:42:27
Speaker
So, I'm sorry. I'm getting super off track. tie this back Winter Soldier for us, please.
01:42:35
Speaker
Because this came from a... yeah Captain America said, burn it all down. And you're you're arguing, if I understand correctly, that burning it all down is not necessarily the right answer. The right answer is figure out what was good, what was bad, um understand it, and then like winnowing it.
01:42:55
Speaker
would be a a phrase like, you know, see, see what, what is worth keeping, keep that things that are worth changing, change that. m And that's a different approach or did you see some version of that approach as well?
01:43:11
Speaker
um
01:43:15
Speaker
Or are you trying to get at the point of the extremity of, Of Hydra. i mean, because that's something that's really clear as as it goes on is that Hydra is is truly evil, that the people's goals are not in terms of what is actually best for the universe or the world and people, but what is best for maintaining power. um And, you know, there's this really gross conversation between some random politician who's a Hydra person And one of the S.H.I.E.L.D. people that is actually Hydra, where the politician talking about what he's going to do later with a younger female.
01:43:57
Speaker
And it's it's gross. it's And you're meant to realize that's a problem. And so I wasn't sure if you were going to try and tie into that type of conversation.
01:44:09
Speaker
Yeah, there's it's...
Identity Crises and Political Reflection
01:44:16
Speaker
There's a conversation between Captain America and Natasha shortly after they're almost destroyed, after they talked to Artem Zola. They're in Sam's apartment.
01:44:29
Speaker
And Natasha's... Steve is kind of like a little more chipper, and Natasha is not. um And he asked her how she's doing, and she's like, well...
01:44:47
Speaker
she was part of KGB secret program. She's trained in Russia, whatever it be. dess And then she joined joins shield. Um, she says, when I joined shield, I thought I was going straight.
01:44:58
Speaker
And, uh, you know, Captain America parrots a quote back at her that he told her that she told him before. it And he says, well, maybe you were in the wrong business.
01:45:09
Speaker
Um, and she's, uh,
01:45:17
Speaker
And ah she says, well, why why do you seem a little more happy? And he's like, well, I guess I'd just like to know who I'm fighting. Because part of the Cap's problem is he couldn't figure out whether he was good or bad.
01:45:32
Speaker
and
01:45:35
Speaker
He couldn't figure out whether Nick Fury's thoughts were good or bad. He had a gut feeling, and his gut feeling was telling him to do the opposite of what everybody else was doing. Yeah.
01:45:47
Speaker
Yeah. And so in a way,
01:45:55
Speaker
this is very podcast cheesy in a way for me, and we're talking about how the stories and story sellers shape us.
01:46:05
Speaker
For me, the 2016 election was kind of like my winter soldier in that was, had to grapple with
01:46:22
Speaker
the the dark side of and and i didn't like i wasn't hyper political but i cared about politics and government and i was registered as a republican um just because my politics are a little more conservative, not necessarily socially, but I believed in small government and that kind of thing. um And
01:46:48
Speaker
then I saw all this hate and displays of just the worst character. um and I don't think even a lot of Christians who maybe voted for Trump, I don't think they did it because they thought he was a good person. I think that he was...
01:47:08
Speaker
it was, I think, I think honestly think that ah app portion was a big issue and, and some people were just kind of like, well, that's the lesser view that that's the issue that I'm going to stand on. And I have no idea, but a lot of people, Captain America. Yeah.
01:47:23
Speaker
Sorry. A lot of people will vote regardless of the party just for whatever is red or whatever is blue. Yeah. And that's the problem with the two party system.
01:47:34
Speaker
Um, but, and the polarization all that, but, Captain America and the Winter Soldier has to grapple with this organization that is undergoing this crisis of identity quite literally. Is it Hydra or is it S.H.I.E.L.D.? um And, you know, in the 2016 election, that's kind of what happened to the Republican Party and anyone who was kind of registered and a Republican.
01:48:00
Speaker
um It felt like to me, everything was going further and further left to right now is staying in the center. Yeah. Politically, but
01:48:13
Speaker
um I don't think I'm the only one who had to deal with that kind of crisis of of of deconstructing um this identity and and having to kind of choose what was really important.
01:48:31
Speaker
And, you know, at the end of the day, politics is a compromise, no matter how good it is. Like our country was built on compromises and checks and balances.
01:48:43
Speaker
um And it's government is is kind of a necessary evil. Like, you know, if people were good and just, then we could have monarchies.
01:48:55
Speaker
But people are not always good and just. In fact, kind of the opposite. Like Madison in the Federalist Papers, avarice has to counter avarice and greed has to counter greed because that's the status quo, which I guess is kind of cynical. But
01:49:14
Speaker
Yeah, just kind of.
01:49:17
Speaker
But, you know, at the end of the day, I think Winter Soldier, when Cap makes that speech, the price of freedom is high and always has been. And now we have to choose.
01:49:29
Speaker
I think now we all have to choose. We actually have to choose. It's getting more and more real. And I won't pretend that America is...
01:49:43
Speaker
it's It's not as many other countries, it's much, much more dangerous. um But I do think that when you look at what's happening with the Trump administration and what they are trying to do with ah executive orders, for example, just trying to bypass the Supreme Court and the legislature and to all these powers that a president is not supposed to have, he's really trying to become autocratic.
01:50:13
Speaker
um this this is a important point in our history, in our country's history. And i don't want to catastrophize because there's a certain point where somebody says, yeah, well, that's what everyone said in World War II. Like, there's always been catastrophes. and But like, at a certain point, you have to say, okay, this is different. yeah This is a different step. This is something else. We, like,
01:50:51
Speaker
I've heard it said by somebody recently, if every generation has their has a thing, a moment that defines a generation.
GOP Values and Political Polarization
01:51:03
Speaker
Yeah. and And that that this is one of those moments. Yeah. that Is that what you're saying are you saying something different? Yeah.
01:51:15
Speaker
No, yes, yes. um And I think going back to the duality of this and really trying to parse what you believe, um I have to think about the Republican Party and the fact that the current GOP seems totally okay with trampling on freedom of speech, on due process, um on so many freedoms that before 2016, they championed ah with their words. um
01:51:56
Speaker
And it's this kind of double think. and And it's like, they say that they are It's about trying to stand up for American values when ah ah the president is basically trying to legislate from the Oval Office and totally ignore checks and balances. So so here's a question I'd throw to you, Hunter.
01:52:21
Speaker
Yeah. And maybe you partially answer this. I feel like a lot of the issue of where we're at now, while highly exacerbated by...
01:52:32
Speaker
administration h
01:52:37
Speaker
is really one of the primary players at fault, maybe even I would argue the player most at fault is Congress.
01:52:49
Speaker
Of the previous multiple administrations, their inability to do their job. yeah And like i mean there's no legislations being passed that are actually working on the best interests of Americans. And there's no willingness for, you know, there's not no willingness holistically to work across party lines towards the betterment of, you know, better care for people and better security. Right.
01:53:20
Speaker
Yeah. No, that's fair. i you know, even going back to the Obama administration, passing and executive orders, um I was critical then because I was like, well, I might agree with some of the motivation for this and wanting to get this passed. But you like the president is not the legislator. You have to go through Congress.
01:53:46
Speaker
But because of the polarization in our country and the failure of lawmakers to get along and and try and get things done, like Hydra has been allowed to grow within, like these things don't just materialize out of nowhere, you know?
01:54:06
Speaker
um So, yeah.
01:54:13
Speaker
Isn't amazing how one movie came out 12 years ago in a succession of superhero movies at a particular moment? Obviously, anything comes out at a particular moment, it's making a commentary, whether it's trying to or not on the particular time, can have such deep relevance to a conversation a dozen years later and you know twice as many movies later in the series. Yeah.
01:54:41
Speaker
Yeah.
01:54:49
Speaker
Hunter, do you have a a last thought for us before we end up season three? Yes, Eric. i have ah I have a poem I want to share.
01:55:02
Speaker
and and I want to thank all of you, our listeners, um for listening. Yeah,
01:55:13
Speaker
we're so we're so thankful that you listened. But I believe that i believe that poetry...
01:55:21
Speaker
ah
01:55:25
Speaker
says the unsayable.
01:55:29
Speaker
And this is a poem by Langston Hughes called Let America Be America Again. And it says basically everything I want to say about what America means to me.
01:55:50
Speaker
Let America be America again. Let it be the dream it used to be. Let it be the pioneer on the plain seeking a home where he himself is free.
01:56:06
Speaker
America never was America to me.
01:56:10
Speaker
Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed. Let it be that great strong land of love, where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme, that any man be crushed by one above.
01:56:24
Speaker
It never was America to me. Oh, let my land be a land where liberty is crowned with no false patriotic wreath. But opportunity is real, and life is free.
01:56:38
Speaker
Equality is in the air we breathe. There's never been equality for me, nor freedom in this homeland of the free. Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark, and who are you that draws your veil across the stars?
01:56:56
Speaker
I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart. I am the negro bearing slavery's scars.
01:57:05
Speaker
I am the red man driven from the land. I am the immigrant clutching the hope i seek and finding only the same old stupid plan of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.
01:57:23
Speaker
I am the young man, full of strength and hope, tangled in that ancient endless chain of profit, power, gain, of grab the land, of grab the gold, of grab the ways of satisfying need, of work the men, of take the pay, of owning everything for one's own greed.
01:57:46
Speaker
I am the farmer bondsman to the soil. I am the worker sold to the machine. i am the negro servant to you all. I am the people humble, hungry, mean.
01:57:58
Speaker
Hungry yet to today despite the dream. Beaten yet today. O pioneers! I am the man who never got ahead, the poorest worker bartered through the years.
01:58:10
Speaker
Yet, I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream. In that old world while still a serf of kings, who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true, that even yet its mighty daring sings.
01:58:26
Speaker
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned, that's made America the land it has become. Oh, I'm the man who sailed those early seas in search of what I meant to be my home, for I'm the one who left Dark Ireland's shore and Poland's plain and England's grassy lee, and torn from black Africa's strand I came to build a homeland of the free.
01:58:51
Speaker
free. Who said the free? Not me. Surely not me. The millions on relief today. The millions shot down when we strike. The millions who have nothing for our pay. For all the dreams we've dreamed and all the songs we've sung and all the hopes we've held and all the flags we've hung. The millions who have nothing for our pay except the dream that's almost dead today.
01:59:17
Speaker
Oh, let America be America again. The land that never has been yet, and yet must be, the land where every man is free.
01:59:28
Speaker
The land that's mine, the poor man's, Indians, Negroes, me, who made America, whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain, whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain, must bring back our mighty dream again.
01:59:48
Speaker
Chore. Call me any ugly name you choose. The steel of freedom does not stain. From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, we must take back our land again.
02:00:00
Speaker
America. Oh yes, I say it plain. America never was America to me, and yet I swear this oath America will be Out of the wrack and ruin of our gangster death, the rape and rot of graft and stealth and lies, we the people must redeem the land, the mines, the plants, the rivers, the mountains and the endless plain, all, all the stretch of these great green states and make America again.
02:01:05
Speaker
Oh!