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On A Water Break: Bonus Episode - Body Shaming in the Marching Arts
8 Plays16 minutes ago
On this episode of On A Water Break we tackle a powerful and often unspoken issue in the activity: body shaming.
Host Nicole Younger (@o2binpjs) is joined by co-hosts Alicia Sharp (@aliciaoninsta2) and Whitney Stone (@dancerwhit), alongside guest clinicians Carlos Herrera (@hellocarlosxd) and Erik Longey (@itsspelledwithak), for an emotional and honest discussion on body image, staff expectations, and how size discrimination shows up in the marching arts.
From traumatic uniform fittings and audition comments to the struggle of masking and the impact of a single sentence, each guest shares personal stories and reflects on how we can all do better as educators, performers, and leaders. They also spotlight organizations offering real support, like Melanin Mosaic, the WGI Participant Protection system, and RISE (Resource for Instruction, Safety & Education).
👥 Hosts & Guests
Host: Nicole Younger – @o2binpjs
Co-Hosts: Alicia Sharp – @aliciaoninsta2 | Whitney Stone – @dancerwhit
Guest Clinicians: Carlos Herrera – @hellocarlosxd | Erik Longey – @itsspelledwithak
💬 In This Episode:
- “You spin beautifully… but you’ll need to lose 50 pounds.”
- The emotional toll of staff comments and audition feedback
- What it means to feel safe and seen in uniform
- Creating an inclusive teaching environment
- How to advocate for yourself (and others)
- How to file a concern with WGI
- Where to turn for mental health support
- Rewriting the expectations of body, ability, and performance
QUOTE OF THE WEEK:
“You’re not going to perform at your best if you don’t feel good in your costume.” — Whitney Stone
🎧 Listen anywhere you get your podcasts
📺 Watch full episodes on YouTube
📲 Follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook: @onawaterbreak
📬 Email us: onawaterbreakpodcast@gmail.com
🎤 Want to be a guest? Apply here: https://forms.gle/7GcpYZLfY8Uo54pp9
Sponsored by:
Guard Closet – https://guardcloset.com | IG: @guardcloset
Peak Group Travel – https://peakgrouptravel.com | IG: @peakgrouptravel
Hashtags:
#OnAWaterBreak #MarchingArts #ColorGuard #BodyPositivity #SizeInclusion #GuardLife #WGI #TeachingWithCompassion #MelaninMosaic #RISEGroup
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Focus on Body Shaming
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Welcome to On a Water Break. This is the podcast where we talk about everything you and your friends are talking about at rehearsal here on a water break. This is a special bonus episode, and we are going to be discussing the topic around body shaming in the activity and how performers can advocate for themselves and others if it ever happens to them.
Meet the Hosts: Personal Experiences with Body Shaming
00:00:22
Speaker
Eight off the mat and go. Welcome to to On a Water Break. The podcast where we talk everything marching arts. Everyone, bring it in.
00:00:35
Speaker
It's time for a water break. Hey everyone, is Nicole. And this week I just welcome back Eric and Carlos because I did say, hey, please come back.
00:00:47
Speaker
You seem like you have a lot to talk about. And actually, this is a discussion that I would like to talk about with you both, along with Alicia and Whitney. And I know some of us, including the host, so have some experiences with this. And so I want to get into all of that. But first, just so we all know, please make sure you go and subscribe on your favorite listening app.
00:01:08
Speaker
Write us a review. Share it with a friend. but If you have a question or a good topic to talk about, we'd love that. So email us at onawaterbreakpodcast at gmail.com. Or you can find us on social media.
00:01:20
Speaker
DM us if you want to be on the show. We have a form that you can fill out.
Whitney's Story: Challenges and Support
00:01:24
Speaker
And but you can just check us out because the link is in our bio. So on the sidelines with us, but we have Whitney.
00:01:31
Speaker
We also have Alicia. but We have brought back Carlos and Eric. So we're just going to go ahead, just jump into this this week.
00:01:43
Speaker
So Whitney, I guess I'm just going to have, just start with you. This is very serious topic and, i you know, would like to talk about everyone's like experience with this, but I've actually been on the receiving end of it.
00:02:03
Speaker
um And then we'll talk about my experience with it, but I've also been accused of it and didn't even know. So we'll talk more about that. But if you could tell us your experience with this topic.
00:02:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So there was an organization that I auditioned for and made it. And this was after a season of drum corps. So of course, you know, I'm really fit and tan and skinny and Winter Guard auditions are just a couple of weeks really after DCI. It's not that long.
00:02:35
Speaker
So of course I still had, you know, most of my drum corps body and we all signed contracts saying that we won't change our appearance in any way. And that includes like,
00:02:46
Speaker
weight, hair color, like all of the things. We ask for it basically. um But it got to a point, well, we also were being weighed every weekend and they would check our BMI.
00:03:03
Speaker
They would calculate our BMI like every Sunday. And it was always after lunch, I think. And it was like, we just ate. Can we not, like, why are we doing this right now? um So we would have to stand on a scale and they would record our weight every weekend.
00:03:18
Speaker
yeah. And I knew that that was something that had been done because it had been done for years. And we're getting up to Christmas break.
00:03:29
Speaker
And I was pulled aside and told that I needed to lose... Was it 20 pounds? 10 or 20 pounds um over Christmas break, which was, it was like, it wasn't even a two week period. I don't think it was unnatural amount of weight to be lost, especially over Christmas break.
00:03:51
Speaker
You know, when it's like, i I don't need to explain Christmas break, but like the food, the drinks, all the things and vacation and family, whatever. Losing weight is not on the list.
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah. it's losing weight is not Losing an obscene amount of weight is not on the list for Christmas break. so And the other part of that was um if I didn't lose the weight, I could lose my spot.
00:04:15
Speaker
And that my i would I would not be in the show anymore. That would make me spiral. Yeah, it was... It wasn't good. I remember crying a lot and being really upset about it and being like, this is unachievable. Like I'm set up failure here.
00:04:31
Speaker
And I was by no means struggling with my show or anything. Like I was great. And I knew that. And didn't have a problem with my body. And I was, you know, like we're lifting each other and stuff and,
00:04:48
Speaker
whatever, like, we were just, we were just doing color guard and I was fine. Like, I wasn't having any issues, but I had, of course, gained back some weight because I wasn't doing drum corps anymore.
00:05:00
Speaker
So that led to some really unhealthy choices um for myself and basically went on a saltine and salsa diet. And I'm not even kidding. Like we would eat me and one of my other best friends, we would eat saltines with like some sliced turkey and salsa and like the really low calorie pudding, some grapes.
00:05:27
Speaker
We weren't eating a lot. We were not eating a lot. And that's not healthy. No, we, and, and I did, I definitely didn't achieve the set goal for, for you know, that was set for me.
00:05:40
Speaker
I didn't lose my spot. And I think a lot of it was just a scare tactic to just be like, hey, you're, you gotta look, you gotta look good in this costume, whatever. And it was like, not even like a really flattering costume, I'm gonna say.
00:05:53
Speaker
um And it didn't show any skin besides like, My toes. yeah like It was kind of like an old school Onyx costume where it's like here and here, you know, and yeah.
00:06:05
Speaker
um So it wasn't like we were like, tummies out, you know, trying to like show our abs. It was not that at all. So I didn't lose my spot or anything. But I can't remember exactly when this next thing happened, but there was, it was one of our like Sunday wrap up meetings, I think.
00:06:23
Speaker
And every week the staff would sit us down and, you know, talk about the weekend or whatever. And then we got onto the topic of like, watch what you eat. Maybe some people are gaining weight. I don't know. Make sure you're, you're, you're working out during the week, all that kind of stuff.
00:06:39
Speaker
And we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then one to one of the like five year vets, basically was like, Hey, hold up. What you're doing, Whitney is not okay.
00:06:51
Speaker
And, and basically just like shut them down. Um, and we had a very serious how wow, where like all of the vets like stood up for me. um and I'm just sitting like in a ball, like rocking and crying. Cause I was so like, I was, I was a first year member too, you know, like 20 years old yes In front of everybody.
00:07:10
Speaker
um And the members were just like, this is not okay. Like, we need to stop doing this. You've got to stop weighing us and calculating our BMI. If you took us in August and you knew that we had just come back from Drum Corps, then like our body and if we're getting through our show, then that's that's it. Like, you got to accept it. If we're okay, then you've got to be okay.
00:07:34
Speaker
And one of the staff members, and I quote, said, if you're not comfortable doing your show naked, you're not fit enough. And I was like, I will take my clothes off right here and and do a run through for you. I do not care. That has like the fact that I'm like toned or not, or I've got a little bit of a belly or inside of my thighs jiggle or my boobs move. Like that has no bearing on me being able to get through my show or still being fierce.
00:08:05
Speaker
Like the whole thing that doesn't have anything do with my confidence. I'm a confident person. So if you want, and I also like, I don't like clothes. So if you want me to take off my clothes and do a run through, like I'll do it. I don't care. That is, those are separate things. Like I would prefer to do a naked run through. if you want me to do it, I'll do right now.
00:08:27
Speaker
Like, let's go. that'll yeah
Health Misconceptions and Costume Concerns
00:08:30
Speaker
That whole thought process of like healthy as as being skinny, because and it just blows my mind because there are tons of people.
00:08:41
Speaker
You don't have to be a size zero to be healthy. Actually, people who are, are not healthy. you know? And, you know, there's a lot of people that I've marched with.
00:08:52
Speaker
I was the person, you know what I mean? Like you learn how to deal with and to, it's not even dealing with, it's like you can maneuver your own stuff that you were given.
00:09:03
Speaker
You know what I mean? and The fact that someone else can look at you who has no idea what you do with your body, what, how, whatever. And they're going to be like, well, you don't look the type. It's just like, you want me as strong as I am right now.
00:09:17
Speaker
You wanted me like this when I auditioned. Why can't I do this now? So that just, that blows my mind. Yeah, it was ah it was an experience. And then after that, they stopped weighing us.
00:09:28
Speaker
And I think they still do not do that. I'm pretty sure they don't do that. But it was an experience for sure. And then come to find out, like years later, I then became, I was like, ah was propped up on a pedestal for that, for that happening.
00:09:45
Speaker
And that happening to me that like, I have people that have been like, oh, well, that... That was a huge thing. That was like monumental. like People know who you are because of all of that that went down. and I was like, okay. like I just was trying to be good.
00:10:03
Speaker
I don't know. Just wanted to be in a good color guard and do good color guard things. I guess one of my questions that I have to ask about that, because I i i just think that there's nothing professional about it.
00:10:17
Speaker
But like bring that kind of thing up in a room full of people. And, ah you know, i mean, like not having, I don't, I don't even know if it's decency. I don't know what the right word would be for it. And y'all can jump in anytime too.
00:10:30
Speaker
But like to not have a conversation and private, you know what I mean? Even in private, like they are just going to, Hey, everyone should know about this when it's no one's, well, don't care. It's no one's damn business, but your own.
00:10:45
Speaker
You know, you can make it, like you said, you can make it through your show and perform your show, like probably better than some people who are not, you know what I mean? Who are half the size, but what does that matter?
00:10:58
Speaker
You know what I mean? Especially for an organization that like, we pay to be there. We audition and we pay to be there. I understand if, if like, If, you know, we're, we're Victoria's secret secret supermodel, but even then that's a whole, you know, whatever, but like, we're paying to be here. We're paying to be educated.
00:11:19
Speaker
And that is not the sound education behavior. Right. And yeah wow, I'm glad that they did. Well, I'm surprised that like when all that started, because I mean, that would make me uncomfortable that I mean, to know that at the end of every weekend, i have to step on a scale.
00:11:40
Speaker
I never got that. I mean, of course we all had to, I'm sure with the different color guards, everybody else was in and we had to sign the contract, the way you look, like your hair color and don't go drastically from really long hair to really short hair because that's not why you got casted.
00:11:56
Speaker
That kind of thing. That was never something I would think that I would say that's probably the utmost of everything. for everyone. But ah to it's just a little a little confusing sometimes signing that contract um because it's like, well, did I have to bring in a headshot too? Should I have? Is this that kind of audition? And then what is the choreography for? What is the skills based audition for then?
00:12:23
Speaker
ah we're we're here as performers i understand that while like the rockets are casting a specific mold and whatnot is that what we're doing is that what we're aiming for is that acceptable within our community to have a specific mold that you're looking for or it everyone's welcome here we're just looking for who can toss and catch really good you know Because at the end of the day, Color Guard is about like tossing and catching and stuff and everything else is bonus to me.
00:12:55
Speaker
But yeah.
Cultural Standards and Personal Journeys
00:12:56
Speaker
but I think also like if you're looking for something specific, don't beat around it. Put it in your audition announcement.
00:13:07
Speaker
We're looking for people of this high. Yeah, exactly. like if it don't Don't dance around. like If you're only looking for people that are five foot seven and 200 pounds, that's you know whatever. Put that out there.
00:13:24
Speaker
exactly Exactly. Because that's where it gets gross, too, is when we're watching organizations still today cutting people who have marched before with them.
00:13:37
Speaker
And saying it's because, oh, you need more dance experience or you need more this experience. Well, he was, he, she was good enough last year. What changed? You know, Skinnier people auditioned is what happened.
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah. I've heard of that a lot. And it drives me crazy when it happens at drum corps. Yeah. Because guess what you do at drum corps? Your body literally transforms. Yeah.
00:14:02
Speaker
You get skinny. Everybody you're looking at is going to lose that 10, 15 pounds. You just are. So that should absolutely be based on talent. Everybody's going to look great by the end of the summer.
00:14:13
Speaker
Chill. Yeah. And then on the other side of that is when it doesn't go spoken about or whatnot and they do get taken is what I don't like and what bothers me a lot is seeing, and I hope I don't offend anybody, but like the quote unquote big girl costume where it's like everyone has one specific thing and then you have the obvious, you know, like, oh, that person, that performer gets, it's different for the reasons, you know, but they're the only one.
00:14:41
Speaker
And to me, that bothers I've those big girl costumes. Been in those. Yep. There is so much anxiety. Like i have kind of felt whenever it comes to show announcements and what the uniforms are going to be.
00:14:52
Speaker
and the amount of times that like, I'm so excited to work somewhere. And then I just crossed my fingers. Like do not let this be skin tight. Do not let it be white. Please let it be like flattering. Like it's, it's terrifying because you're, you're so excited for something. And then you have that moment of dread and like, yeah, I'm very thankful that like, I've enjoyed all my uniforms that I've been in, but I've always terrified.
00:15:14
Speaker
Yeah, it just feels like a lack of effort to me. Instead of trying to design a costume that looks good on everybody's body, I feel like they're just picking costumes that, well, this is the average size and this performer may not feel comfortable with this much re revealing skin, so let's just cover them all up completely.
00:15:31
Speaker
and I don't know. To me, it just really bothers me and pulls me out of the illusion just because the whole goal of Color Guard is to look like each other, you know, the ensemble to be as one with everybody. Unless it's purposeful and everybody has their own character costumes and stuff, like, I totally get that.
00:15:48
Speaker
But... you're going to have everybody in a crop top and then one person in a unitard, you know, or there's what everyone has shark cutouts and miniskirt and there is the pants, straight solid pants and big t-shirt, you know, like.
00:16:03
Speaker
It's lazy. Yeah, it is lazy. I just, I just, I can only imagine being that performer and then getting that costume, you know, man or man or woman or you know, male or female, like just getting that, that big girl costume of like, oh, I got this because they think I don't feel comfortable in my own skin, you know? And, and.
00:16:22
Speaker
It's ah literally a conversation. Like I have to jump back in on this because like one of the biggest things, one of the biggest things that loved, loved to do when I was teaching was the costume fitting day.
00:16:34
Speaker
And it's just like, okay, nothing's falling apart. You don't have any seams that are ripping. But the biggest thing is I want to see what that performer's face looks like because it's going to tell you everything you need to know.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah. I see a performer when they have the uniform on and they just look uncomfortable. That's when I'm like, you tell me, what do you need? what How do you feel? How do you feel in the costume?
00:16:58
Speaker
Are you uncomfortable? Are you comfortable? If you're comfortable and it's like a little bit tight, great. If you feel good, awesome. who I'm not saying anything. Yeah. And that's where I think directors and designers have to like remove their ego a little bit and make it less about them and what they saw in their vision was and more about the people that are actually doing that and putting that vision to life and making sure that they feel good.
00:17:23
Speaker
Because I think it it does make an overall difference in how your show comes off across, you know, ah uncomfortable performers with uncomfortable costumes versus I feel great. You know, I feel beautiful. This is amazing. You know, and you're not going to perform at your best if you don't feel good in your costume.
00:17:40
Speaker
but Exactly. not happening. yeah I have an interesting um teaching side story. I had somebody tell me this winter that there were a couple of girls that I needed to change their costumes.
00:17:52
Speaker
And I was like, why? And they were like, well, it's just, doesn't really look that great on them. And I knew it was a weight thing. And I instantly was like, Nope, that's the costume they wanted.
00:18:03
Speaker
They tried it on. They tried on other versions of costumes. So we had multiple versions and that's the one that they felt comfortable in. And that's the one that they will wear. So I'm letting them wear it. I'm not changing their costume because you think they don't look good. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:16
Speaker
so I would almost want to press that. Be like, why? Why doesn't it look? Can you be specific and make them say it? Because they won't. you know what I mean? and well it kills me My biggest thing, though, if that's coming from a parent, it's just like, oh, okay.
00:18:31
Speaker
yeah Oh, this was not this was not a parent, also. In my instance, not a parent. Awful. I'm also very quick to like call people out. like Are you body shaming? Because we are in that age where that is a trigger where trigger phrase now. and saying that People hear it, and they're like, no, not me, no. What are you talking about? and you know and I'm quick to call it out. like Stop body shaming, Ari.
00:18:52
Speaker
Eric, I know that this is something that you have unfortunately experienced once upon a time, too. Do you want to talk it? Do you want to tell about it? and you want to tell us about it Yeah, I could probably go on three hour rant, but I'll cut it down.
00:19:07
Speaker
um First of all, want to say like, Whitney, I'm really sorry for you experiencing that. Like even like listening to you talk about it, like you started getting me teary eyed because of like, don't how similar of things. And um i thought it would be interesting that like you remember specific like comments that were made to you. Because right now, as I was preparing for this episode, like all of my notes are comments that were said to me. Because like for for you, it's it's traumatizing. For them, it's another Tuesday.
00:19:36
Speaker
so yeah Going on about like my experience, it Thankfully, I didn't have to deal with it much, like whenever I was kind of growing up, but like being someone who was like, who has been like plus size most my life, like you tend to see people like who are similar to you.
00:19:52
Speaker
And so I have thankful being like around the community in which I saw people who were like maybe a little more plus size. And so it kind of like drove me that I could like achieve my dreams. And i remember like at an audition, I was told that I spun really well. I danced beautifully um and I can definitely hang, but I have to lose 50 pounds.
00:20:14
Speaker
And I remember getting my car and just sobbing for like the over hour drive, like thinking I just like why did that.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah. And I just was a mess for a while and then, um, ended up getting a contract there and I stopped a lot of things, did some bad things, um did not do a healthy thing.
00:20:41
Speaker
And it just kind of spiraled. And I noticed that every conversation I was having was all about my weight and how much smaller I was getting, how much better i was looking and all these things. And so I kind of equated my like worth was like, oh, I'm achieving my dreams. And also like, I'm the smallest I've been. So like, it must be equating to each other.
00:21:00
Speaker
didn't think of it too much. Like as I was gearing up for the next season, I was like, Ooh, like I feel my best. Like I am finally like reaching my peak. And the next season I was told like, we love you. We're so proud of you. You have to lose 50 more.
00:21:15
Speaker
already lost 50 pounds wanted 50 more? had you already lost fifty pounds and they wanted fifty more I ended up losing 60 in a year and I ended up not being, not marching there the next year. And it sent me to a full spiral and it really, really messed with me. I like, I thought I was kind of done and it's weird. Like people, like I'm sure like these people who said these things to me, like don't even remember saying this, but like, it is so ingrained in me and I think about it consistently.
00:21:51
Speaker
It sucks. Like, it definitely like makes me think of even more. And there was even a moment where we were, I was watching somewhere else where we were doing a lift and two things I do all the time lifts and bomb tosses. That's like my color got career.
00:22:08
Speaker
it's I was partnered with this girl who, she was also a little bit on the plus size and was little nervous about me lifting her. i was like, I got you. Like, this is so easy to me. So like lifted like higher than 90% the people there. Like, this is fine. Like she's, I'm getting her comfortable with
Mentorship and Overcoming Body Image Issues
00:22:26
Speaker
it. Like she, she was more used to being like a base or lifter.
00:22:31
Speaker
And so I was just getting comfortable. Like we're doing reps on reps on reps until she felt comfortable with it. And then someone had said, you know, make sure that you guys know how you do this and do it the best because, you know, you're both on the edge of the floor.
00:22:47
Speaker
And we just kind of stopped and looked at each other. We're like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean by that? Say it. And we like we think about it all the time. And like now, like with me and her, it's just a joke. Like, we're like, oh, we're on the edge of the floor.
00:23:05
Speaker
And it's just like those small things, it just kind of stuck with me. And I'm thankful to have had a ah marching experience in which was trying to get over the past that I had dealt with. And we were trying on our uniforms again after we finally got it, after the initial weigh-in.
00:23:23
Speaker
And we realized that my uniform had to come in quite a bit. And I had made the comment that The director, I only can say it, Stephanie Furness, told me that I had lost, I was like, oh, you've lost quite a bit of weight. and We needed to pull it in. I was like, yeah, thanks. But like, it's not as much as like, I should be doing, I should have lost more and I'm sorry.
00:23:45
Speaker
And she pulled me aside and we had long, long talk and it was stern. Like I love her and She's the most caring person. And she was like, you're doing everything you need to do. It does not matter about like your way. You can do this regardless of the way you lose.
00:24:05
Speaker
But if you ever start doing that crap that you were doing before, you will be out of my team. Cause in that moment, I realized that, Not every director is the same or every designer, every cast or not cast, but like staff member is the same in that viewpoint. Like she was looking out for me and it just, it really changed my viewpoint.
00:24:27
Speaker
Cause I had never been told. Just to clarify, that was at a new organization, right? Yes. Yeah. That was a new organization. Yeah. And just was, I just, I've never been told that before.
00:24:39
Speaker
yeah. yeah How did that make you feel like when she did say that? because coming Oh, I sobbed. I sobbed. it like Because I just felt so validated. And I already have enough to worry about my show. Yeah. And not the calories that I'm consuming.
00:24:56
Speaker
And um I needed it. um And especially with all I was going through, I really, really needed it. And I'll always praise her for doing that. It meant the world to me.
00:25:08
Speaker
And I don't know, just like, ever since all that stuff, it can't make me think like I, like everyone should be more mindful of what they say, because even it's like, and it may not mean the most to you, but you could be every six, seven, eight, 19 years, 15 years on a line, but we're going to remember that quote that you said to me, and it's going to really like stick there forever.
00:25:31
Speaker
Mm-hmm. It made me think of that kind of, I don't know, fable or not fable, but, you know, story that we hear, example, of squeezing the tube out of the toothpaste or the toothpaste out of the tube and then trying to put it all back in. You know what I mean? Or wrinkling the piece paper and then trying to smooth it back out again. Like, those wrinkles are never going to go away.
00:25:53
Speaker
And while that director did that smoothing for you and she tried, like, the damage is done. And we're in positions to either do damage or take care of our students.
00:26:06
Speaker
and Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there doing damage. Yeah, I think that and what's most important is the self-reflection part about it all. Yeah. Because I will be the first to admit that I am not in innocent at all.
00:26:22
Speaker
And not in the body shaming part of it all, but in saying things that probably have stuck with past students before and where the example that they used earlier were like, well, it's just another Tuesday for me, you know, just another cook another kid and whatnot. And and something that thought of was...
00:26:41
Speaker
I can't be so upset with myself and all I can apologize to those students that I've said and they affected because in the moment I absolutely thought I was saying and doing what was right, like what I believed was to be right.
00:26:54
Speaker
Going forward, all he can do is change my my verbiage, my attitude, my energy, my message, you know. And and absolutely, there is plenty of instructors that have said those things to me that have affected me um as well.
00:27:09
Speaker
And and not not you know like not nothing in comparison to what you guys went through or anything like that. But I'm trying to say is that, yes, they did affect it. And yes, you know, we can't forget it or shake it off.
00:27:25
Speaker
But we also have to remember that they, too, also probably thought that they were doing the right thing at that time in the moment. Not being extremely malicious. Exactly. I think that we need to give people some grace, too, because...
00:27:39
Speaker
They didn't know what they didn't know back then. Yeah. And same with me now. I didn't know what I didn't know 10 years ago as a coach. You know, would I do everything different? Absolutely. You know, in retrospect, knowing what I know now.
00:27:51
Speaker
So I just, and and I'm just trying to come from a place of understanding. um And instead of like, let's Let's hate these people or let's, ah you know, or whatever. It's just, let's try to understand them where they're coming from a little bit more to maybe possibly help us move forward as well. Or maybe even stand up for ourselves or other people when we see these things happening.
00:28:13
Speaker
We as humans have to show each other literal grace, literal grace, and and honestly meet everyone where they are. I will tell you when I marched, I, yeah, actually I'm well older than all of you, but,
00:28:28
Speaker
when I marched world-class back in the 1900s.
00:28:34
Speaker
Actually, I was one year in the It was 1999. That was my first year world-class. But like back then and being in that, like what it was about what you could do.
00:28:46
Speaker
My dance teacher back then, and I will tell you all about this, my dance teacher back then was Amber Perkins. She was not a small woman. But my goodness, was she limber and she could move and she could leap and she could get off the ground. So like it was everything I needed to have as a role model to show me what I needed to be doing. And my goodness, the confidence just came out of her nose. Like you couldn't tell her nothing, you know? i And you loved her for that.
00:29:15
Speaker
And so like I came into that organization and I was just very timid and it just like, I don't know, you know, and just covered up because everyone had dan like the quintessential dancer's body, you know, everyone was limber.
00:29:30
Speaker
And so I just kept working and you just kept doing things. And she would just come over to me and be like, you're a workhorse. You look great. I need you to keep doing what you're doing.
00:29:41
Speaker
And that's all she said to me. It's all she said to me and scream my name a couple of times, but that's fine. and That's all you needed. And that's all I needed. And then.
00:29:52
Speaker
I took eight years off. Yeah, I took eight years off. I wasn't, this was supposed to be done, but I took eight years off and then I came back to the game and it was about, it was about my weight and it was about the way I looked.
00:30:06
Speaker
And so, you know, being older, I was like, I don't want to stick out. But if I'm, if I'm, if I look like this, gonna stick out. So I did everything in my power not to.
00:30:17
Speaker
And when you're doing those things to just keep the weight off, because sometimes that weight is muscle and you need it. I was hurting myself being older, trying to lose weight like that, trying to keep up and doing every weekend,
00:30:31
Speaker
going to the doctor every two weeks because, well, you're not in the best shape right now. Why? Well, you're not eating and then you're running. And then you're doing all this other stuff. Oh, are you sleeping? No, not really.
00:30:44
Speaker
But I love my uniform. And that's all that people really cared about. you know And like there's a lot of things that I learned about, o excuse me. There's a lot of things that I learned about going back.
00:30:57
Speaker
And that's when I was like, I need to teach. And so I wanted to be around people and be around kids that I can be like, listen, you don't have to. Look a certain way. I need you to get through this flag feature.
00:31:09
Speaker
So if you do that with three arms or two arms or four legs or two legs, i don't care, but I need you not to tick. But I also need you to feel comfortable and confident with what you're doing.
00:31:19
Speaker
So like I have very little, and I know I can show grace to people, but to know what that feels like inside, you just feel less of a person. And you're just trying to blend in with everyone around you. That's hard.
00:31:35
Speaker
That's so cool. And a lot of it, too, I think comes from cultural expectations that we carry into the color guard world because our cultural definition of beauty changes every 10 years.
Advocacy for Inclusivity and Cultural Shifts
00:31:48
Speaker
You know, and like you look at, you look back to the, what people thought beauty was in 2014 versus 2007 versus 98 versus 88. Like it's constantly changing culturally. And I think that's what is also affecting all of us, you know, going into the marching arts is we're carrying all of that with us, all those expectations. And it doesn't have to be about that. You know, I I'm so sorry you went through that nipple. That's, that's not.
00:32:14
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I'm good. ah I'm good at masking. Yeah. Well, I masked a whole season long, but in all of this too, like, you know, and, and that's kind of, you know, leads us into the next part of what we're talking about is just like, what can perform, how can performers advocate for themselves or what could they say for themselves that I was not strong enough to say for myself?
00:32:38
Speaker
think, Carlos, kind of like you hit the nail on the head earlier when you said like, we're in a time now where you can just say, are you body shaming? And we're very much in an era that like, you can call it out.
00:32:50
Speaker
Um, But it's not easy to do that for yourself. And I think it's really important that we all do what the people who had Whitney's back did and stand up. It makes me think of the, in the airport, you know, if it's like, if you see something, say something in that place.
00:33:11
Speaker
that's what That's all I think about. Like, if you see it or you hear it or you know of it happening, say something and call it out. And like Eric said earlier, don't be afraid to say it with your chest. Which is why I like, you know, I feel I'm a proponent if it's happening today and we know about it, those organizations have to be talked to and WGI needs to be told and step in.
00:33:33
Speaker
But I mean, but we talked about that earlier too. Like, is that their right to choose who they want on the floor based off of looks, you know? Yeah. Is that their right, you know, or is this like a you know, ribbing everybody for showing up and we're going to, you know, she showed up, you're here. Yeah.
00:33:49
Speaker
I guess my thing is like, you can't regulate an organization of but like to who and what members are going to take. You know, like I think that all we can do is try to advocate for, Hey, this is an inclusive activity. We are the misfits of the world. And that's why we did color guard, you know, and misfits coming off shapes and sizes. Like how are we now going to turn into an elite sport and then just start weeding out the poor and the fat, like it doesn't make anybody feel good.
00:34:15
Speaker
Nailed it. With one of these things too, like, I have to say big shout out to like the Stephanie Furnaces of the world that talk to Eric, you know what I mean? Or the Amber Perkins of the world that talk to me.
00:34:27
Speaker
Or I even like to think that sometimes I'm that person for someone else or I was at, you know, when I was teaching, but also to those people who have those, cause it goes both ways. Like,
00:34:40
Speaker
You know, ah people can have insecurities about their body because they are either plus size or insecurities about their bodies because they can't gain weight, you know? Yeah.
00:34:52
Speaker
Because I've had i've had both. And it's just like, hey, you've got to find that confidence in you somewhere. But also on the teaching side of this, like that's part of our job.
00:35:05
Speaker
You got to bring – you got to – in ah And still that confidence within them support them to the point where they you can see that confidence come out of them, because it's a performance thing.
00:35:16
Speaker
Honestly, when do you ever look at the floor and be like, Oh, the size of that performance? i you know No, you know, it's like, it's either good or it's bad. I don't care what size it is. Yeah.
00:35:29
Speaker
You know, so I think that's where it comes from for me. like And it's a conversation. It definitely is a conversation. Plus, you have to be able to like read the room or read your kids, read your performers.
00:35:42
Speaker
like You'll know if they look comfortable. You know if they look uncomfortable. you know But also talk to them. But I don't think it needs to be a whole thing to, like we were talking about this too, like show them grace.
00:35:54
Speaker
you know
Navigating Auditions and Available Resources
00:35:55
Speaker
We are humans, show them grace. the conversation doesn't always need to just be with the performer. Sometimes the conversation needs to be with the person that's doing the shaming.
00:36:05
Speaker
ah So like going forward, what do we do if we're in Eric's position where you show up to an organization to audition not knowing that they have specific standards of body and beauty that they're looking for? What should a performer do if they find themselves in that environment or at that audition?
00:36:22
Speaker
I feel like you know your worth. You know your worth. If they know you, and I mean, honestly, like being in a guard, and maybe I'm talking old stuff right now, but being in a guard is not just about your talent level, how well you can dance, but it's also like your loyalty and how much you are willing to put in to get better.
00:36:43
Speaker
That's the kid I want, you know? with that sticking power. I think if I auditioned for Eric and he looked at me and said, i mean, you can do this, you spend well, but you need to lose 50 pounds. I think my response or the scripted version that I would say is, you know, that's a shame that you see my work as a performer and you see my skills, but you're looking at my body and deciding that I'm not good enough for you.
00:37:09
Speaker
And while that hurts, and I'm definitely going to have to talk to my therapist now. Thank you. yeah I don't know that I can perform for an organization that's going to put my body over my skills.
00:37:22
Speaker
So thank you, but no thank you. Yeah, that conversation has replayed over and over again in my head. And there's so many things I wish I had said in that moment.
00:37:32
Speaker
And gosh, looking back, hindsight is always, at you know, 20-20. Like, I would have said so much more. but Oh, it kind of sucks at that moment. At that age that I was, plus this is happening to people younger than I even was whenever it happened to me.
00:37:51
Speaker
it's it's hard and scary. There's a power imbalance when you just want to march. That's all you want to do is to perform. You're fearful of the repercussions of standing up to yourself. And I think that we need to stop being so afraid ah the repercussions because as much as we all love the activity, it's flags in the gym and like you're, you are, you matter more as a person rather than like being tortured for like the next like nine months of your life.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah. But what do you tell the performer that yeah but finally built up the confidence and the courage to go to their dream audition and save the money and they worked out the plan to move and do this and maybe fly there every weekend and they have it all settled out with their work and their family and their dog and everything's good. They just have to get to the audition and they get to the audition and they have this experience about their weight.
00:38:51
Speaker
What does that member do next? Because I've seen it firsthand, that exact scenario. And then they didn't make it because of requiring more dance skills.
00:39:02
Speaker
And then they just stopped doing color guard. And then that's it. That's their dream is killed. And like, throw the passion into something else, throw the passion into another guard because God, someone out there will love you and take you for that.
00:39:16
Speaker
You know? I want to go back to this in just a moment. going to a commercial, but I have, I don't know, like a next question, like what's what's next kind of question, but we're going to go to a commercial
00:39:38
Speaker
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00:39:51
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:41:03
Speaker
All right. Welcome back. We are here on Waterbreak and we're still discussing ah the topic of size discrimination. but We do have some resources that we really do want to talk about and make sure that everyone knows about them and they can do their own research on their own.
00:41:17
Speaker
Alicia, let's kind start with you. What do you have? Yeah, I just straight up have the WGI website and I'm going to show a phone on here, but it's kind of hidden and hard to find. So I had to play around. But if you hit the three dots in the upper right hand corner and then come down to participant protection and hit over here, you have options here that say report a concern.
00:41:38
Speaker
um You can also look at the WGI code of conduct, the safe sport training and background checks. But that report a concern is going to be your place to like, hey, this happened to me. There are definitely some participant resources on WGI's site, first and foremost.
00:41:55
Speaker
Does that take, like, if you file a complaint, does that go straight to SafeSport or? i believe it goes to WGI's board. Board. Uh, ah The other resource that I have is Melanin Mosaic.
00:42:09
Speaker
They're performance ensemble, but it's led by Jerry Light, and they do a lot of work within the mental health realm of things. and So I know that down the road, this could be something that sticks with you. Obviously, we've had this conversation. This is not something that happens and you forget about it. You just kind of tuck it away for a while.
00:42:29
Speaker
And We would like for the, we would all like for the cycle to stop happening, even though, you know, you know, it's kind of still going on, but if it's happening to you too, and you just need someone to talk to about it, and that can be a resource to have, and they can point you in the right direction. That's Melanin Mosaic Performance Ensemble.
00:42:47
Speaker
and Thank you for that, Nicole. and Just to answer Whitney's question, I'm reading right now on the participant protection reporting policy, which is also on that same page I shared.
00:42:59
Speaker
And it does say on here that it goes straight to a board at WGI that initiates an investigation and then carries it further to other channels, such as law enforcement, if it's something very serious.
00:43:12
Speaker
And they work on training and redirecting of the unit as well. So it doesn't go directly to safe sport then? It does not. So that would be a different thing because we all have to be safe sport trained.
00:43:24
Speaker
So you would maybe also potentially do a safe sport report. Yeah. This thing says on here that what's expected under the participant protection policy is that all performers are protected from harm.
00:43:44
Speaker
It does not specify what kind of harm. So keep that in mind when you're looking at this. Carlos, you had something as well. Yes. um At WGI, I connected with Kara Abohatab, and she is working with the RISE group, which is ran by Edmer Lazaro, Danny Nguyen, Samia Vanderkoff, Debbie Seeley, Kara Abohatab, and Alan Herrera.
00:44:09
Speaker
And I'm just going to read their intro. ah The resource for RISE is the resource for instruction, safety, and education. RISE is the dynamic collective of professionals dedicated to elevating the marching arts.
00:44:24
Speaker
We are, or they are, instructors, dancers, healthcare professionals, psychologists, motor learning experts, biochemists, coaches, researchers, directors, and artists. Their mission is to foster environments where performers thrive, learn safely, and prepare their bodies and minds to excel through evidence-based educational resources that equip instructors with tools for impactful, efficient teaching.
00:44:49
Speaker
So here... They have this form that you can fill out a request for more information, whether it's for ah member endurance, physical preparedness, time management, designing, engaging and motivating students, mental health resources.
00:45:05
Speaker
um And we can their email. I don't think they have a website, but their email to get more information is risegroup.us at gmail.com.
00:45:16
Speaker
That's R I S E G R O U P dot us at gmail.com. Um, and learning about this from Carol, I thought it was a great hub for information to go to. And I think that's what they're leaning or wanting to provide is any new instructor or director or any performer of any kind that just wants more information to do what we do, what
Teaching Approaches and Final Reflections
00:45:39
Speaker
we love. so much better with more information that's scientifically backed, ah you can come to this group and get more information. So I was really excited to learn about this.
00:45:50
Speaker
um So I'm just trying my best to make sure everyone else knows and hears about them and so that they're utilized. Yeah, I think that that's great too. So glad for a couple of things for this episode. One, that we have people on here who are strong enough to, you know, tell us their stories.
00:46:10
Speaker
And then we can back that up with, hey, this is not going to happen to you too. But the other thing is, it's just like, there can be a conversation that is had, you know, these are great resources, but also, you know, like how Whitney, your group had your back.
00:46:27
Speaker
Eric, your director had your back. There are those things that can happen. That's just a conversation because sometimes the people that are saying these things to us don't know. And like you said, Carlos, like this is a resource to make teachers better.
00:46:42
Speaker
You know, it's not just for those performers, but hey, there are some teachers in there that could use this. I do want to circle back through this, though, with the conversations that we've had and the stories that we've told.
00:46:56
Speaker
does it How has it changed the way that you approach teaching? Or how does it has it changed the way that you approach you know just going into a group and instructing kids?
00:47:09
Speaker
Erin, want round that to you first. Yeah. I always make sure that whenever I'm teaching, I'm not trying to limit things based off of like body or late body type or and like that. Like anybody can do anything if they work hard enough at it. I've seen people who are, who are like my size, have the best possible hands in the entire color guard community yeah and teaching. I'm always just like mindful of it. And I always ask the kids like,
00:47:41
Speaker
What can I do for you? If I know that they're feeling upset or they're feeling insecure. i do it. I've done it like over over again. And like, I know sometimes like the people I teach, like they can get annoyed by it, but I'm just like, what, what can I do to help you out to make sure you succeed?
00:47:56
Speaker
And sometimes it is like, they just need to golf in a corner. They need to like, try to figure out how to do this cartwheel. And then maybe we'll get the pad out. i always think it's funny that like this year, we,
00:48:08
Speaker
did the, like, we you go to the Hanson you like body roll down from it. And I remember like learning that at a different organization. I was like, trying to explain it. And like, people are like struggling, like all variety of sizes.
00:48:21
Speaker
And even me after being like retired and like even getting like more weight, who cares? I was able to like bust it out and teach it. And like, first all, thank God I could do it.
00:48:32
Speaker
I was terrified. I was i was like, all right, I'm going to smack my face on this concrete in front of 50 kids. Like, here we go. And I was like, yeah, guys, it's not that hard. If I can do it, you can do it. Well, looked around going, oh my God.
00:48:45
Speaker
But like, it doesn't matter your shape or size. If you can, you can. hang Yep. Absolutely. Whitney, how has this changed the way that you have approached teaching? Do you think?
00:48:58
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, i feel like a lot of the female dance teachers are much more petite than than I am you know? so I know that I've inspired a lot of kids because I'm not a size two and I can outdance a lot of people that are.
00:49:17
Speaker
So I don't know. I feel like just being myself and doing what is, is inspiring in its own way. I don't know. I've just been, I've been told that a lot that like, you're, you're awesome and you don't, you don't care what other people think. And you're just a, such a big advocate for bigger girls and whatever. So I'm just like, I'm just doing my thing, you know, like,
00:49:42
Speaker
ah This is the house my soul was given. So just doing my thing, you know, thiss being unapologetically people, then that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. unapologetically yourself, dude.
00:49:54
Speaker
Wow. And I usually use the line of, if I can do it and I'm like twice the size of you, you can do it. I always, I can get, if I can get my butt off this ground and my knees creak and my, my, my cannot stand in a true first. Cause my calves are too big.
00:50:10
Speaker
I can't get my heels together. Then you can, you can do it. You're young, you're pliable. Let's go. i expect you to do it if I'm doing it. Yep. And something I do to help ah those members too is I acknowledge and reward the small bit of effort.
00:50:29
Speaker
And just because I always approach day one full of athletics, like we're doing cartwheels, we're doing rolls, we're just making it super normal because you're going to do this eventually, you know? And a lot of time you get insecure members that are like, I've never touched the ground without my feet.
00:50:48
Speaker
Like, what are you talking about? like You know, and then I have to show them the the the the baby supermarking cartwheel where you just like touch tap the ground and lift your heels up for two seconds and start there, you know, and then they do it. Perfect. Amazing. That's great. You're doing it. Amazing. Keep doing it. Perfect. Keep trying, girl. Keep doing it. You know, and there's a story that I have about this little girl, 11 years old.
00:51:14
Speaker
She learned how to do one-handed cartwheel by the end of the season after falling every single day and tried and tried and tried and not once did she cry or complain or give up. And then by the end of the season, she was doing one-handed cartwheels. It's so inspiring to see it, um but leading and rewarding and recognizing the smallest bit of effort goes a long way I've come to learn.
00:51:37
Speaker
Yeah. Alicia, what about you? i um definitely tend to approach teaching in a very positive and a very fun way. I don't.
00:51:48
Speaker
It's very, very, very rare that I ever even raise my voice. So i I think creating an environment that is fun and inclusive is extremely important to me.
00:52:00
Speaker
This type of thing specifically, like kind of do what Whitney does. Like if I can do it, you can do it. But also I totally make jokes at my own like expense. So like, you know, if we're talking about like, you know, lifting up and over and reaching, I'm like, you know, oh, my side fat squeeze in. but So make sure yours is too. Like not your back, your side, like you know,
00:52:20
Speaker
to try to get things across to kids just to make it seem like, Hey, you know, like this is me. And if it's you, that's okay too. You know? Yeah.
00:52:32
Speaker
yeah that I do. I don't, I mean, all of you are probably still teaching. I don't teach anymore. I still go. Actually I'm on tour, but it's very, it's a very, you know, my name amount.
00:52:45
Speaker
um And I'm like what you probably called Barry granola. I like to dig into the parts where it's just like, if you can perform, you know, with a lot of like, with a lot of this, then everything else should come and should get there.
00:53:01
Speaker
Obviously there's lots of other people on staff that will help out with that. But like, I try to let them like really perform to let, you know, everything out.
00:53:12
Speaker
Um, man, this was such a hard topic to talk about. um And I appreciate all of you for that. And honestly, to give me and everyone else here a safe space to actually talk about it.
Closing Remarks and Social Connection
00:53:26
Speaker
So i just want to thank everyone here for this bonus episode and talking about this topic.
00:53:32
Speaker
um Thank you to Carlos, Eric, Alicia, and Whitney. Also, all of you out here that are listening, if you have a question or a good topic that you want to talk about, please email us at onawaterbreakpodcast at gmail.com.
00:53:46
Speaker
You can find us on social media. DM us if you have any questions or if you want to send us a video, you can do that. ah We're on YouTube, so you can always find all of our episodes on YouTube.
00:53:59
Speaker
um Also, just check us out on our social media. We have the link in the bio for any of the forms that you want to fill out to be on the show. um Also, if you make a video on your phone, you can send that to us and you may see yourself on the podcast. So until then, i just want to say thank you all to everyone that was here.
00:54:19
Speaker
And um make sure you go out there and you subscribe, write us a review and share it with a friend and follow us on social media. So we'll see you at rehearsal on a water break.
00:54:35
Speaker
The On a Water Break podcast was produced by Jeremy Williams and Christine Ream. The intro and outro music was produced by Josh Lida. To learn more, visit LidaMusic.com.
00:54:47
Speaker
And until next time, thanks for tuning