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Episode 1.02 Sallie Krawcheck on reaching more diverse clients
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Sallie Krawcheck is the CEO and co-founder of Ellevest, a digital financial platform for women that has over 3 million clients and $1.5+ billion in assets under management. She has valuable insights into how we can expand our reach to a more diverse generation of clients.
Sallie discusses her journey to founding Ellevest, why we need greater diversity in the financial industry, the impacts of technology on the business of giving financial guidance, and why she hates the word “empowered.”
Follow Sallie Krawcheck on LinkedIn
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Transcript
Adapting Approaches for Retirement Planning
00:00:01
Speaker
Seeing yourself and your clients can help you connect, sure. But as new clients age into retirement planning, we need to adapt our approach to be more in tune with different life experiences and different expectations.
Introducing Sally Krawcheck
00:00:14
Speaker
And no one knows that better than our guest today, Sally Krawcheck. Welcome to Rebuilding Retirement, Navigating a New Reality with Your Clients, a podcast series from Allianz Life Insurance Company of North America.
00:00:26
Speaker
My name is Travis Walker and I've worked at Allianz for more than 15 years, from sales and relationship management to operations. Each episode of Rebuilding Retirement brings you thought leaders and innovators for a closer look at how retirement and the financial industry are evolving, new approaches to risk management, and how you can help your clients prepare for the future they want.
Expanding Financial Services for Women
00:00:47
Speaker
Sally Krawcheck is the CEO and co-founder of Ellevest, a digital financial platform for women. Historically, women have been underserved by the financial services industry. Sally's work with women provides valuable insights into how we can expand our reach to a more diverse generation of clients.
00:01:04
Speaker
Ellevest has a community of more than 3 million women taking action with their money and more than $1.5 billion in assets under management. You'll hear Sally's journey to founding Ellevest, why we need greater diversity in the financial industry, the impacts of technology on the business of giving financial advice, and why she hates the word empowered.
Sally Krawcheck's Career Journey
00:01:26
Speaker
Sally, thanks for joining us.
00:01:29
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. How did you find yourself in a career in the financial services industry? Yeah, not on purpose. Let's say that I was a journalism major in college. And it was at the time, one of the places where there were senior women where when I looked up, I said that is someone that I want to be. Even at Fortune magazine at the time, there were
00:01:57
Speaker
a number of senior women who were journalists. So that was my path. I was going to be with Lois Lane of journalism. And when it came time to graduate and when it came time to interview, the journalism jobs were paying 12 or $13,000 a year.
00:02:20
Speaker
But it was 1987, and the Wall Street jobs were paying 31 or 32, or even dare I say it, $33,000 a year. And I thought, well, that's quite a difference. Also, the Wall Street jobs were in New York, which growing up in South Carolina and North Carolina seemed like a pretty interesting place to go, made even more interesting because my father told me I was not allowed to go there. Whereas the journalism jobs were
00:02:51
Speaker
And, you know, all over the country and sort of small and mid markets are where the jobs were available. So I switched my thinking and decided I will go to Wall Street for a couple of years. I will learn and then I will go back and become a journalist at a more senior level. And honestly, I tried. I, you know, worked at Fortune magazine.
00:03:14
Speaker
and Time Magazine in their business offices and kept trying out a job offer at Disney. But unfortunately, my now ex-husband did not want to move to LA where the job was. So I really did try to make it back into journalism. But after a while, when I became a research analyst, which has some similarities to journalism, you know, the digging into the facts, the
00:03:37
Speaker
looking to see things other folks don't see, the writing, the dealing with really intelligent people. By that time, I'm like, okay, I surrender. I actually love financial services. And this is always where I was meant to be. No, that's good. Great answer. Really comprehensive. And it's not unlike a lot of answers that I hear. Well, I mean, obviously, the journey is a little different. But the answer in that
00:04:01
Speaker
It's sometimes my happenstance with the financial services industry. Very few have that course charted initially. I have to say, I don't know that we in financial services do ourselves a ton of marketing favors in terms of really
00:04:20
Speaker
communicating the importance of what we do and the lives that we change for the better by doing it, as well as, and obviously, I'm preaching the choir here, but how intellectually interesting it is and the smart people that you deal with in the industry and the kind people you deal with who are clients. We need a marketing campaign. So all young people will be running to this industry.
Creating Financial Products for Underserved Groups
00:04:49
Speaker
want to delve into Ellevest and rather than doing a huge disservice of trying to explain it myself, I'd love for you to kind of take the reins and tell us about it, how you decided to make something that was built for and by women. And then why was that important to create something for people who had historically been underserved in the financial services industry?
00:05:12
Speaker
Well, you've hit the nail on the head. It's important to create something for people who've been historically underserved by the financial services industry. We sit here today when any number of wealth gaps are widening, racial wealth gaps, gender wealth gaps that have very important and bad implications for
00:05:33
Speaker
our communities, for our society, for our families, for the companies that aren't getting started, for our nonprofits that aren't getting as much as they could in contributions, for politics as well. Put another way, as we like to say at Ellevest, nothing bad happens when women have more money, absolutely nothing. And yet, women today have just 30 cents of wealth to a white man's dollar for black women, for brown women, that's a penny,
00:06:03
Speaker
and it's been going in the wrong direction. We tend to talk about the gender pay gap as being a driver, it is, but there's also a gender investing gap as well that can cost some women as much as their gender pay gap does. So I saw this really significant
00:06:24
Speaker
um, inefficiency, if you will, in the market that women just don't invest as much as men do, even when adjusted for the pay gaps, um, and the negative ripple effects it has and recognized at the time that the industry was saying, well, there is this gap, but it's because women are risk averse and therefore
00:06:44
Speaker
There's really not a time we can do about it. They never said those exact words, but that was sort of the approach. And at Ellevest, we said, well, there may be something we can do about it if we build a company that centers women and that does two years of in-depth research on not just women will say, well, I want someone I can trust, not leaving at the surface level, but what are those things that we could do that will truly engender her trust? So Ellevest,
00:07:12
Speaker
is today the number one, the only, I would argue, invest tech and wealth management company that centers women. We are founded by, founded by, built by, built for investing through, investing in women with, again, as mentioned, a mission to get more money in the hands of women.
00:07:34
Speaker
But like you said, in the same way that we need marketing to get more people in the industry, we need marketing in terms of the verbiage and everything else. I've had discussions about people asking me to make the business case for diversity.
00:07:48
Speaker
You know, it is 2023.
Importance of Diversity in Financial Services
00:07:51
Speaker
And some people listen to this, maybe it's 2024. So it does feel like there have been so many studies on the power of diversity, it's almost willful to ignore it at this stage. You know, diversity in leadership has been shown to lead to higher returns by a little, by a lot, not a little.
00:08:11
Speaker
lower risk, greater innovation, greater employee engagement, greater client engagement. Diversity is so powerful that diverse teams outperform smarter teams. There's really nothing bad happens when women have more money. Nothing bad happens when we have diversity. It just means overcoming those old internalized beliefs, which is difficult to do.
00:08:35
Speaker
How do you hope that having more consumers of varying life experiences like women investing would impact the financial services industry? Just open it up some more. The, you know, mild businesses. So back in the day, I ran Merrill Luncheon and I ran Smith Barney and the city private bank. These are businesses that do a lot of good for a lot of people.
00:09:04
Speaker
They have almost perfect product market fit with white men, middle-aged and older white men. When I was running these businesses, there was very, very little attrition. Men tended when they chose a financial advisor, they stayed with that financial advisor, they left him when they died. They trusted him more than their doctor.
00:09:30
Speaker
women on the other hand, there is no product market fit, there has been none. And in the year after her spouse's death, women are likely to leave at a rate of 70 to 80 to even 90%. And by the time, you know, it gets to the next generation, the kids, 98% of the dollars are gone. So that tells me there is not product market fit there. And if we keep doing things the way we do them, we'll keep having the same result. And so what I'm hopeful
00:09:59
Speaker
is that as these groups grow and as their success in serving them, there is more expansiveness to who those target clients are.
Ellevest's Women-Centered Approach
00:10:08
Speaker
There's more diversity that's built into these businesses, which people are absolutely, absolutely working on right now, but that we see not
00:10:16
Speaker
steps but leaps in this direction. Can you elaborate on that? Because again, you've been intentional and unapologetic about your mission. And what is that ultimately going to lead to when working with women and really elevating them with Ellevest?
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah. Well, look, we really work to respect our client base and respect who they are. And honestly, when we talk to them about what they're looking for in a financial planner, a financial advisor,
00:10:48
Speaker
They don't often say, it's a woman, it must be a woman. But we often hear characteristics that are really considered to be somewhat feminine characteristics, the caring, questioning, watching after somebody, that sort of softness around the edges, even when coming with the numbers and dealing with the numbers. And so we are
00:11:13
Speaker
Today, 100% of our financial advisors, of which they're only a handful, to be honest, and 100% of our financial planners, likewise, are women, and they reflect
00:11:24
Speaker
our client base back to herself. So we are open for increasing diversity there. Our company overall is 85% women, 50% people of color. We are quite diverse, but for the time being, the engagement with the client base is one of respect for her and reflecting herself back to herself.
00:11:46
Speaker
So I had a question about platforms like Ellevest, but I want to amend that and just straight up say the platform that is Ellevest, because I don't know that there's anything necessarily like it. But how has that changed the landscape for financial professionals working with clients, especially when preparing for retirement? Yeah.
00:12:07
Speaker
So there really isn't another Ellevest. I was actually on the phone with a big investor before this call. And he was noting that it feels like everybody has the same business strategy in the industry, personalization,
00:12:27
Speaker
you know, high level of service, help you reach your goals, some impact investing. And Elvis really stands apart because we are very clear we are built by women and we are built for women. It does not mean we don't have men clients and do not welcome our allies in. We, you know, in fact, in our private wealth offering 40% of our clients are men, but we rather than centering men have centered women and women's needs. So we certainly aren't seeing a rush to copy us. And I have
00:12:57
Speaker
a lot of views on why. It's mostly because what we're doing is incredibly hard, takes quite a bit of capital, and takes quite a bit of time. And so this is not a, let me, hey, I'm gonna target women now, let me slap up a marketing campaign. That has uniformly, like, uniformly 100% failed. We changed the product. We built a three and a half million strong community from scratch.
00:13:24
Speaker
We built a brand that is on its way to becoming iconic around women and money. From scratch, we built the product, which has to be, as you know, with startups, 10 times better than what's out there in order to garner new clients. And so we had to have a strong tech team and tech stack, strong financial team and investing stack.
00:13:46
Speaker
Um, it's
Changing the Narrative Around Women and Money
00:13:48
Speaker
it's in fact, it makes me want to weep now i'm like, it's been so much work Um, you know, we've tried to we've worked so hard what I hope we've done though is Changed to some extent the dialogue around women and money and by that I mean that women men men receive very positive affirmative messages around money from media and from society
00:14:13
Speaker
Um, the majority of articles on money or video, you know, um, video segments on money or shows on money for men are about growing wealth and building wealth and trading and Bitcoin and large cap growth and small cap value and this stock and this CEO and very, um, expansive, very, um, affirmative. And so when men think about money, the synonyms that come to them are power and strength and independence. It's abundance.
00:14:43
Speaker
Women, it's the exact opposite. That the articles to women are about scarcity, about how difficult it is, about where they're failing. And so it's things like financial planning doesn't have to be really, really hard. So it's positioned as a negative. Or, and you know, we're coming into, we're coming into pumpkin spice latte season. It's mocking women for their purchasing choices. Right.
00:15:11
Speaker
you know how yeah you know don't buy the latte don't have the facial don't get a pedicure carry Bradshaw with all of her shoes it's all how it's her fault when in fact what these articles should say is it's literally not your fault
00:15:25
Speaker
And boy, you go girl, you are doing the best you can. And you know what, you go have that latte because you deserve it. And believe it or not, that latte is not going to find your friggin retirement the way some people say it's just like the math like literally does not work. So take a breath and be okay. And so and we're seeing some changes to it now. We're coming out of the summer of Beyonce and Barbie and Taylor Swift.
00:15:50
Speaker
where women sort of threw off that, you know what, I'm gonna have a little bit of fun and I'm gonna spend a little bit of money and I'm not gonna be shamed for it. And so if anything, where I hope Ellevest is changing the dialogue a bit, is recognizing this difference in tone that lead women to think of money as isolating and uncertain and lonely, and beginning to say, I'm going to step into my power. I would imagine that it's,
00:16:16
Speaker
You know, somewhat insulting for someone to say that then you have been empowered as if someone has granted you a right or given you permission to do the things you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you've hit the nail on the head. The reason I laugh at empower is because I've always disliked the word, um, always. And I thought maybe it was one of those overused words, like, you know, or phrases like let's circle back and, you know, put it in and take a bead.
00:16:42
Speaker
You know, all the things that we say and I sort of thought it was just an overused word. But then we were sitting around one day at the, at the LFS office and debating why we didn't like it. And someone thought to pull up the online dictionary and the definition of empower is to be given power, to be given power to which wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Women don't need to be given power.
00:17:08
Speaker
We are 51% of the population, 51% of the workforce. We direct 80% to 85% of consumer spending. We have trillions of dollars of investable assets, and we don't have as much as the men do, but that's a lot.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, a lot. It's not nothing. It's not nothing. So we don't need to be given power. We need to find a way to use our power. You know, as for me, I'm incredibly privileged and incredibly fortunate that I was able to use my power to raise the funding for all of us to give us the time and the runway.
00:17:50
Speaker
to build something that is unique and important. I think they'd look at some of your past jobs and say, well, it kind of speaks for yourself. But rather than speak for itself, I'd love for you to speak up on it. Like, how do you get into that room and end up being the CEO and front and center at some of these really large institutions? Yeah. When I was the ripe young age of 26, I think,
00:18:15
Speaker
I was still an investment banker. I was working at Solomon Brothers. I was in their London office. And one day, after being asked to get the coffee for the men at yet another client meeting, looked up, so to speak, and realized I was a senior woman in investment banking at that time, at the age of 26.
00:18:39
Speaker
Wow. OK, not a lot of role models on how to get from here to there. But I do want to be successful. I've always thought business is this deadly series, but in addition, this amazing game.
Standing Out in the Financial Industry
00:18:56
Speaker
So how can I get to the top if I choose to do it? And the answer for myself was a little bit of probably a surprising one, which is I decided I was going to stand out.
00:19:09
Speaker
that I wasn't going to tuck my head, try not to attract attention, cross the street in a crowd. I think that works if you're part of the majority. I'm going to take the fact that I already stand out and take it up four times.
00:19:23
Speaker
which worked really well when I became a research analyst. So focus in on something that matters. And sometimes it means you're quiet for a while because you don't have anything to say. But if you are the one who's different, then, and you're good, then people have to talk to you. And then you get promoted and you get titles and so on. And I found the same thing in business, which is be quiet if you don't have anything to add, which makes sure that when you do, people listen to you.
00:19:53
Speaker
And that's partly Ellevest, which is, again, in a sea of, you know, people having a lot of the same strategy, Ellevest truly stands apart because I waited, you know, yes, it was that Ellevest, you know, we took two years after the founding to really get the offering right. What we're not talking about is the privilege that I had in the good fortune of the three years before that, before I even decided to launch an Ellevest.
00:20:22
Speaker
where I spent time really thinking through what the opportunities were. But if you had to give advice, I know we talked about marketing and how we can attract more people and how the industry kind of needs a refresh. For someone wanting to get into that and to grow their practice just on a really practical level, what advice would you give that person, particularly women, that are going to be in especially client-facing roles? Yeah.
00:20:51
Speaker
I do think the call is a little bit different if you're in a client facing role than in a leadership role. Because the big calls on big stocks and big opportunities doesn't necessarily work client facing. People will be like, what are you doing? Look, there I think it is about often those characteristics that women tend to bring to relationships, which is answering the questions, caring,
00:21:19
Speaker
really listening to the answers, actively listening to the answers, encouraging additional questions, encouraging understanding, checking in on the person, not just financially, but as a whole person. I felt when I met with my financial advisor,
00:21:38
Speaker
Sometimes I feel like I've gone to see a psychologist after because, of course, money is not just money. Money is my future and it's my family's future and it's my hopes and it's my dreams and it's my fears and it's power.
00:21:53
Speaker
You know, money is power in a relationship. I know we don't like to hear that, but it is. It is. And so bringing one's full self and caring, I think women are tremendously good at this. What I used to see at Merrill, by the way, is, and Smith Barney, the great financial advisors were often women. It took us longer to get started.
00:22:19
Speaker
Um, that, you know, there, there was more of the sort of fee based and less of the commission business. And so women would tend to get washed out earlier on, but once they made it through that strength of the relationship, uh, was so, so key to, to their success. I want to know how has it changed or what are the biggest changes you've noticed in the business of giving financial advice for retirement? Yeah.
Integrating Technology in Financial Advice
00:22:45
Speaker
Um, well, one thing I think has just been a and will be a long run trend is technology coming in to do what technology does best and freeing up the individuals and the people in the business to do what they do best, which is for many of them relationships.
00:23:07
Speaker
And so at Ellevest, and this is, by the way, been a move since, you know, calculators were first invented. You know, oh my gosh, I don't have to do the addition on this piece of paper any longer. I've got a slide rule and now a calculator.
00:23:25
Speaker
And then here's a computer, it weighs 600 pounds, and it's slow as hell, but at least there's computer. And so people in our industry have these big debates about people versus technology. It's people and technology. It always has been. And so you really see the continuation of that, where
00:23:48
Speaker
I think technology will do what it does and let people do what they do and try not to confuse the two of them. And that's portfolio construction, of course. It's moving from portfolios that are simply about risk-adjusted returns to true goals based, which is what we do at Elvis, true goals based. What are my chances of retiring with this kind of annual income
00:24:16
Speaker
if I make this kind of a recurring deposit or I make this one time, take into account the outside assets, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a movement to that, which is beyond the capacity of the human mind. But it's also having the app on the run. It's being able to connect with individuals the way they want, not the way that we are used to. In fact, I have one
00:24:45
Speaker
service professional who just continues to call me on my cell phone.
00:24:51
Speaker
Oh, lovely. I just like stop it. Why do you think cell phones have text capability? I'll stop calling you Sally and I apologize. It is so incredibly inconvenient. It's, it's intrusive. You know, I'm busy every day. And you are imposing your timeline on me. Absolutely.
00:25:18
Speaker
sending me a text so that then I can determine when is the best time for me to connect with you a service professional. You know, it's just and then don't even get me started. The same individual has a fax machine. Oh, lovely. I think some people listening probably do it's it's over people. It's like over. It's overall.
00:25:39
Speaker
That kind of speaks to what you're saying then about the generation that's coming ahead now and their usage of technology or ESG investing and the things that are important to them. When you talk about a generation and the differences between these generations, how we did business before is not going to be how people do business going forward and what's important to certain people. If you aren't staying up with that,
00:26:08
Speaker
then you're going to lose a generation of investors. And I know it feels, I know it's scary to
00:26:15
Speaker
update and change the advice you give to clients or the answer to questions. I know that's scary because if you today say, you know what, I've taken a look at ESG investing and I do think it can make sense and I'm ready to offer it. Well, you know, what if someone says, why didn't you do it last week? Why didn't you do it four years ago? It's scary to change your mind. It's a sign of, you know, business maturity and growth overall to do it. So
00:26:45
Speaker
I think we can fight these things, but you lose business as a result of it.
00:26:53
Speaker
Well, it's kind of like you said. It's someone almost imposing their will on something and not accepting things as they are and meeting people where they are, particularly when you talk about women and their emergence. I mean, we were talking about this earlier. And I had the thought that, hey, a lot of women are the CFO of their households. So to try not to deal with them or not actively find better ways to work with them
00:27:17
Speaker
you do yourself a disservice, not just an injustice to them. And so we're clear, no one needs to be empowered. You're just shorting yourself if you're not working with women. Yeah, but it's also we're all more comfortable working with people like ourselves. Oh, absolutely. Working with
00:27:34
Speaker
middle-aged women from the South who have careers in financial services. It's just easier. There's so much that just doesn't have to be articulated because we just understand each other. It is more difficult to work with people who are not like you.
00:27:52
Speaker
in thinking about that, how can people move past that or break through? Obviously, they can use it to their advantage, but clearly, you just can't work with only people that you're familiar with. Yeah, natural curiosity. I think we all got in this business because we enjoy people and we enjoy meeting new people. What's more boring than
00:28:18
Speaker
talking to people who are just like yourself all the time, who have the same points of view, who underscore what you believe. It's so much more interesting to me to learn something from people, change my point of view, engage with them. So I think the way to break through that
00:28:39
Speaker
The sort of ease of being and working with people like yourself is just bring that natural childlike curiosity. You can learn something from everybody.
00:28:49
Speaker
from everybody. What is that thing you can learn so that you keep the building blocks of an interesting life?
Sally Krawcheck's Future Aspirations
00:28:57
Speaker
All right. So if you were to restart your career again in 2023, how would that look different now that there is an Ellevest in place? And what advice would you give to that person starting out to a young Sally Krawcheck? That's a good question. I might spend a little time in California. OK.
00:29:18
Speaker
Silicon Valley is still an area of new ideas and innovation and technology. And my regret is I don't know how to code. It's not something I learned. I'm going to be honest with you. I keep buying the coding books, and I am lost by page two, which is why I've got a great technology team. By the way, they're lost on the investing
00:29:44
Speaker
instruction manuals on page 2 too. But that is a regret that I have or that's a direction. So I would go out to Silicon Valley to work for perhaps a series of startups for a couple of years. I would then move back to New York because it is the center of the financial world and build a career that would have a strong foundation in tech and finance.
00:30:11
Speaker
Okay, so as we wrap up, just a few final questions for you. What does your ideal day in retirement look like? And I get the sense that you're far away from it. You're not a coaster. So you're going to keep your foot on the gas here. But if you could close your eyes for a moment and think what your ideal day in retirement would look like. Yeah, you know, it's a great question. I pour very easily, super easily.
00:30:41
Speaker
Me too. I really do. In fact, over the weekend, I just have to take Saturday off, whole Saturday. I got a little, depress is too strong a word, but a little blue.
00:30:58
Speaker
What am I doing? What am I sitting here on the sofa? Then on Sunday, I woke up and put in a couple of performance reviews, went to a lunch, got invited to a dinner. I just felt so much better. Retirement for me, I think, is going to be probably a handful of boards.
00:31:21
Speaker
and lots of time with my kids. But I'm still sort of the energy and the intellectual stimulation of going. I'm not too much of a beach gal. So for the listeners who have enjoyed today's conversation, where can they find you online?
Conclusion: Adapting to Meet Diverse Needs in Retirement Planning
00:31:40
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you can find Ellevest at ellevest.com, E-L-L-E-V-E-S-T.
00:31:45
Speaker
You can find me on LinkedIn. That's where I do my social media. So come on over and visit. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. I think that people will come away getting a lot from it. So what we learned from Sally is that the needs of clients have evolved significantly, and a more diverse network of financial professionals will be uniquely qualified to understand the needs of their clients.
00:32:12
Speaker
To help the next generation of retirees, you'll need to meet clients where they are at. That means adapting your approach to address all aspects of retirement. Thanks for listening to Rebuilding Retirement. I'm Travis Walker. Join us next time when we'll continue to explore the new retirement reality.