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A Master Networking Session from a Wall Street Salesman
57 Plays4 years ago
Networking still matters.
I'm not talking about social networks but establishing connections with people professionally and personally.
A lot of things in life happen due to relationships. It's how we develop trust, empathy, and connections.
Marc Angelos is a long-time Wall St. salesman who intimately understands the power of value of networking.
In this episode of Marketing Spark, Marc takes a deep dive into the keys to success networking and how to make it happen in a digital world.
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Transcript
Introduction to Marketing Spark and Networking
00:00:05
Speaker
I'm Mark Evans, and welcome to Marketing Spark, the podcast that delivers insight from marketers and entrepreneurs in the trenches in 25 minutes or less. When I started my career, networking was an important part of career building. Not social networking, but meeting people, connecting, and building relationships. With the rise of the internet, networking has clearly changed. We use Zoom, SMS, and email to digitally communicate.
00:00:33
Speaker
And when COVID recedes, it's unclear how in-person meetings will bounce back.
Personal Branding and Networking in Modern Marketing
00:00:38
Speaker
To discover the secrets and importance of great networking, I'm talking with Mark Angelos, a digital marketing strategist and a long-time relationship builder. Welcome to Marketing Spark. Thank you very much, Mark. It's a pleasure to be here.
00:00:55
Speaker
Let's start by talking about personal branding and the power of networking. For all the talk about digital technology, social media, networking as a marketing tool doesn't get much attention. So provide some insight into whether it's still relevant and how people can effectively network in a digital world.
00:01:19
Speaker
Sure, so what people always overlook, Mark, is that networking is the foundational component of social media, right? The whole point of it is to network. Although it gets transmuted into sales and all that other bit that we know, it is really about people connecting with people. That's not changing.
The Essence of Human Connection in Digital Networking
00:01:36
Speaker
So humans as a social animal, not going away.
00:01:39
Speaker
What's different, though, is the connectivity piece, A, it occurs in a different manner now, and B, the existence of social media, the rise of these channels, these digital platforms, has transformed networking way more than the internet itself has. People think of it as a dynamic of just technology, but
00:01:59
Speaker
In the old days were familiar with six degrees of separation you can get me almost anyone through the sixth iteration you're now one dm away from the presidency right when that when you can speak directly one to one it changes the dynamic of everything from sales to marketing networking.
00:02:16
Speaker
Networking now has to be predicated upon the value delivery component of what I can do for someone else, which is the inverse of the way most people look at it. I worked for 27 years on Wall Street in a relationship management role, and the whole concept there, the reason I lasted as long as I did, if you know how to touch base with someone in an additive manner,
00:02:38
Speaker
And then that's the magic. What we're all familiar with, especially on LinkedIn, I know you're very active on it. The old, you can tell right away when there's the transactional feel when someone reaches out to you, they want something from you. And that whole thing is not the way forward. You already know this. Everyone out there is aware of it.
00:02:57
Speaker
The new generation of leaders, I mean, from the Z's on up, it's this BS detector is on 10. There's no more pushing and pounding and pitching. So networking becomes a game of, what can I do for you? So you and I are on this conversation right now, in the back of my head, I'm thinking, what can I do
Shifts from Physical to Digital Networking Formats
00:03:15
Speaker
for Mark? And that might not be business. It might just be connections of someone I know, some insights on how you're running your show, whatever, but it's something that you will benefit from.
00:03:27
Speaker
So you and I are contemporaries, and back in the day, and I say that 10 years ago, 15 years ago, networking was meeting people for lunch, going to networking events.
00:03:39
Speaker
maybe going golfing with them. It was about personal relationships, in personal relationships, where I got a feel for you and your body language and just the way that you operate. And that gave me a sense of whether you should be part of my network. And over time, you know, you work your network, you nurture your network, a lot of physical work to do that. Is that still relevant today? Are we still in-person networking still relevant? And how do you cross the chasm from digital to personal? It's a multi-phase, multi-part question here.
00:04:10
Speaker
We have to get into the definition of personal. Does that mean in person? Here's why I say this. My son is online with four of his best friends that he's never met, three of which are in different countries. That's been the case throughout the lockdown. Now, is that a real relationship? Is that an in-person thing? The point is, will they do for each other? Yes.
00:04:32
Speaker
The old days of golfing and dinners and even meeting for a cup of coffee or my world was grabbing a beer after work at the bar with your customer, that's not going on right now. And we'll come back eventually, but not for a while. That doesn't mean you can't still develop that direct one-on-one personal relationship. And believe it or not, you kind of have to. Like this is a digital world now. For good or for ill, the reality is you can and you should, and actually the onus is upon you to do that.
00:05:03
Speaker
I think that what people don't recognize is how to do that, right? This is now getting into the world, your world, the content world. You quote unquote have a conversation every day, whether it's through the podcast, whether it's put your posting on LinkedIn, you're very active in communicating your perspective and helpful insights that helps people develop a relationship.
Building Depth in Relationships Over Quantity
00:05:24
Speaker
Those of us who didn't grow up in that world have to either learn that skill and start exercising it or suffer the consequences that if you don't speak in a digital world, you don't exist. So networking really means right now, adding to other people's content, putting out content of your own. But again, it's got to be with that value add approach. You're very familiar with it of how can I help these people?
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, a couple of comments. One is that it's interesting that your son has relationships with people in other countries. My son has these three friends that he's met online. They live thousands of miles away in Western Canada, and he's got this very intimate relationship with them. In fact, he wants to go visit them this summer for one of them is having a birthday party. And on one hand, in the old world, you say that's really weird, but in the new world, that's completely acceptable. It's just the way that things are done.
00:06:19
Speaker
one question i did wanna ask you is whether the in person networking is gonna come back will we meet for beers one of the things i ask myself when it comes to coffee meetings is whether that'll happen again because when you think about it a coffee meeting is a two hour endeavor. There's about half an hour to get there there's the hour that you spend with the person and you're not even sure if it's gonna work out.
00:06:40
Speaker
and then there's a half hour to get back to your office or even longer. That's a big investment for a first time touch with somebody. I think in some ways I don't wanna do that anymore. I agree. It's just too much risk, right? So the question is how much will the coffees, the beers, just getting together people come back or whether we're in a new reality now.
00:07:03
Speaker
So the reality is that it is going to come back, right, in some form. However, there's got to be a judicious element now to what you just said to, is it worth my time? And I don't mean, this is not in the face of the transactional thing I just mentioned. It is that there's an element in when you get married, you send out your invitations on very expensive paper, right? Why? Because there's a commitment there that people recognize the high quality and what you spent in the invitation represents something.
00:07:31
Speaker
And that's the same thing when someone invests time to come visit you. My previous jobs back on Wall Street, I was covering customers in Europe. So I was there quite frequently on airplanes, et cetera. What that means is you have to make the decision, is this person potentially worth the effort? And on the inverse of that, the person that will be there for the meeting is thinking, Mark is willing to come and make this time in his schedule when he could do this over a Zoom call.
00:07:58
Speaker
And so it does add a new dynamic to networking, right? There's this element of, are they worth it? I am worth it, depending on whatever side of that table you're on. But yeah, sure, it'll come back. I mean, there's gonna be beers and dinners, but humans are social creatures.
00:08:13
Speaker
One thing I will say is that the value of meeting somebody obviously makes a difference. It shows there's a sense of commitment. So for example, if I get approached by prospect about a big marketing project and the fact that I'm willing to meet them in person a year ago, that was necessary. That was absolutely necessary because if you didn't meet with them, you weren't serious today.
00:08:36
Speaker
I think I could probably jump on a Zoom call at their convenience, meet them, learn about what they want, get a feel for whether it's a fit or not, and make a proposal.
Traditional vs Digital Networking Connections
00:08:46
Speaker
And I don't even think they expect me to meet with them. I think in my world, that is the new reality.
00:08:53
Speaker
I think you raised a good point there, Mark, but also don't forget that expectations would change radically with the lockdown. So yes, but going forward, I don't think people will be as insulted by those not making the effort, but that also means on the flip side that those who do make the effort when it's traditionally determined are going to have that much more leverage in that conversation.
00:09:14
Speaker
And I think that's going to be the interesting thing to see how things snap back. I hate the phrase to normal because it's not going to be normal anymore, but how people flip back to their old behaviors. So whereas before you and I are doing this virtually, if this was a prospecting meeting, but in a month, two months, three months from now, it could be the expectation may be that you're going to come down and meet me. And if you're really serious about doing business with me, that's the way it's going to happen.
00:09:42
Speaker
I agree with you back to the expectations piece. When we were kids, there were pen pals. You didn't really have expectations of meeting your pen pal if they were far away in the world, and you hoped to, but it wasn't really on the radar. Now, your son absolutely is expecting to one day sit down and meet in person. That's part of the appeal of the relationship. My friend, my son's friends, I've asked him, where are these guys located? First few months, he's like, I don't know. Someone was not in America, though I know because of the time zone.
00:10:10
Speaker
Okay, but this is the world so I think that people will develop those relationships in person becomes the secondary piece Which touches back on the networking mark the whole concept of social media and digital engagement like this is merely the entree point for an in-person relationship
00:10:28
Speaker
And I think to your point, not everyone's going to want to make that second step. That's where you figure out is this person part of my tribe, quote unquote. But I do think that this becomes it's a new version of relationship building, but it's still relationship building.
Skills for Effective Networking
00:10:43
Speaker
One of the metrics when it comes to digital networking is connections. The number of followers you have, the number of connections on LinkedIn and a lot of people equate connections to network. If I have
00:10:56
Speaker
5,000 connections, I have a huge network. But that can't be the case, because it's easy to connect with somebody, but it's different to have a relationship with them. So how do you explain to people that connections is not network, or maybe it is? I don't know, tell me. So there's an old expression, a good friend will help you move, a great friend will help you move the body.
00:11:19
Speaker
This comes down to what is the depth of the relationship versus the breadth of how many relationships I have. Now, if I've got 10,000 connections on LinkedIn and none of them respond to anything I post, is that really a relationship? Obviously, the answer is no. On the other hand, if I only have 400 and each of them are willing to pay me $10,000 for the services I'm offering, that's depth.
00:11:42
Speaker
That matters depth is more important than anything it always was digital or not it's got nothing to do with technology if you have a connection with someone. And they call you up it's your best friend and he says mark i need you to in the morning can you come you're gonna go you don't ask any questions i'll be there.
00:11:59
Speaker
versus some rando who kind of knows you and whatever. My point is the relationship aspect doesn't change. The mediums, they change. But it doesn't, the human thing is still there. The power of connection, depth over breath. I think that people, they don't see that because the metrics game that social media has introduced to this younger generation and the older ones have fallen for it as well. It is a numbers game, right? This is the, everyone loves data metrics.
00:12:28
Speaker
But this is my argument in the old sales world I came out of. You got to not conflate the tale with the dog. People will do for you and buy from you and connect with you if they want to. That's it. It's not about how many you already have.
00:12:44
Speaker
I'm probably preaching to the choir here. Well, one of the reasons why I think LinkedIn has worked so well for me in the last year is that connections are just a starting point. I read a lot of content. I find interesting people. I'll connect with them. But the key to my success has been conversations and I will reach out to people because I've got a small relationship with them. And I'll say, for example, Hey, Mark, I love your content.
00:13:08
Speaker
I love the way that you explained this. Would you be open to a Zoom call? In many cases, in most cases, people say yes, and then you jump on a call with someone, you have a 30-minute conversation, and all of a sudden the relationship changes. They go from a connection to a relationship. And some of those are one-offs where you talk to them once and that's it. And some of them you continue to have ongoing conversations, and you may jump on another call with them because
00:13:33
Speaker
You feel like you've got i don't know if it's the right word is friend but certainly you've got like a real connection where there are some people that if i. Got an airplane i was in their town and i and i ping them on linkedin and said you wanna meet for beer they would say absolutely because they they know me. Provide some best practices in terms of how to make the leap from connections to conversation because i think that's the magic of digital networking and networking in general.
00:13:59
Speaker
I'll break it down like this, Mark, and here's your actionable steps. Your superpower, and the reason you've been so successful on LinkedIn, and I'm talking you as Mark, is because of these three reasons, and these are applicable to anyone everywhere. Number one, curiosity. You are genuinely curious when you look at someone's content and you chase them down. Most folks don't take the time to really investigate. So curiosity is always the starting point for anyone's success in anything.
00:14:23
Speaker
Number two, active listening. You illustrate this perfectly, but this is an old sales tactic where people get in there and they don't ask any questions other than to listen. They only want to hear and you do this. You're paying attention. You're knowing what the stream of questioning should go. You're trying to figure out.
00:14:42
Speaker
Active listening is such a rarity these days. So folks who learn to actively listen, and what that means in practice is, can I repeat back to you what you just said in my words? And you agree. So active listening is number two. And the third piece is empathy, right? That's what you are also doing here as well. Empathy means understanding it from the other person's perspective.
00:15:05
Speaker
When you're curious when you're listening to what they're saying and you start to try to see it their way this is sales one on one relationship building you can call it networking it's people connecting is all it is and those three things are not taught.
00:15:20
Speaker
not formally, and they're not really accentuated at all by the educational system, which is a whole other world. But my point is, you have to take the active role in learning these things. We'll call them EQ skills. We'll call them soft skills. They're more important than the technology skills that we all value so highly.
00:15:39
Speaker
I may be biased but i'm coming out of twenty seven years of selling artificial intelligence software so i know what i'm talking about here the. Ability to connect with someone is the first step to anything to selling to relating to building a friendship.
00:15:54
Speaker
And that's the thing where you need to take it on yourself. What are the steps I need to do? I need to literally spend the time getting on LinkedIn and you read people's comment and you go look at their content and then you touch base, ask them questions. But you do it in the empathetic fashion. You do it in an honoring value oriented approach. And that's also a skill. That's probably skill number four there. Learning how to communicate in a manner that builds people up so that they want to engage in return.
00:16:25
Speaker
Let's go back to an earlier comment you said about content and the need to give as opposed to take because there are obviously people on social media that are looking to take. They're looking to sell you something right away even though they don't have a relationship. The good people, the people who are really effective at networking are producing a lot of content. They're leaving many comments. They're engaging with people.
00:16:49
Speaker
Do you think that people forget about the value of content and the value of giving when they're trying to drive networking digitally? Yes, I think it's a great point. Value delivery is the game always in life. Forget about social. Technology allows you to magnify that. But if you're not delivering value at scale, then you're not really worth having in the network, if you will. And this is not giving to get something.
00:17:16
Speaker
This is giving to give because in the sense the world we live in now with that six degrees of separation becomes one dm thing we now have people who have to choose to want to do business with you or to engage in connect and if they don't make that active choice you're out.
00:17:32
Speaker
why would they choose to do that because you give more than you take everyone and everything wants something right in life you know that anyone you meet is looking for something i don't mean sales i just mean there's something that they're looking to do with their life goal. If you can approach everyone in that regard and deliver as much as you can in the area that you think will help them.
00:17:53
Speaker
Even if it's not correct, they'll recognize your intent and intent matters. Intent is a real thing, by the way. Intent is a weapon. If I really go out of my way to try to help Mark Evans, if I get off this call and I think to myself, you know what? Something that dawns on me now and I go back to you with it, something that might help you, you're going to say, this is a good guy.
00:18:12
Speaker
That's the game because there's not enough business to go around. There's so many channels. It comes down to who do I want to associate with? Who do I want to give my business to? Who do I want to be able to be there if they need me?
The Importance of Personal Branding and Trust
00:18:28
Speaker
One of the interesting things about business, and I repeat this on a regular basis, is that people don't buy from companies, people buy from people in many cases. You buy based on the relationship, whether you like somebody or you trust them. When I was a reporter, for example, people would tell me things because they liked me and they trusted me and they wanted to have that back and forth relationship. And I think that's one of the reasons why
00:18:52
Speaker
writing a lot of content on LinkedIn makes sense because people believe that they get to know you. They get to know your thoughts and your ideas and your willingness to help people. And I think that makes a difference is that it's still about trust and it's still about, it's still about whether likability, whether we like it or not, whether it's digital or in person.
00:19:11
Speaker
I think people don't recognize that what they're selling, first and foremost, is themselves. So you, you as you, as an individual, whoever this is, is a product on the web. No different from any company, no different from any widget. And that means your sales front end piece is your communication, right? And it doesn't have to be formal. It could be informal on the phone. It could be in person, or it could be formalized in content. But there's a sale that has to happen before you even get to say what you're gonna say.
00:19:39
Speaker
And that's the part where the value orientation when i was on wall street all those years and i jumped a bunch of jobs and they're they're all big firms you know but it was the same customer base and the reason it was never difficult for me to switch jobs was because the customer value.
00:19:55
Speaker
The customers knew there was value there. They'd be willing to follow me firm to firm. And so that comes down to that in real life. It doesn't matter what you do, Mark, like what career you're in. If you decide that you want to give up on podcasting and go become a hot air balloonist, if people are behind you, they're in there. They're like, dude, take us on this journey. Let's go.
00:20:13
Speaker
because they're invested in you, you, the person. And so people have to think of themselves as, I need a front end on me of communication. It's not, I'm not selling anything per se, but you kind of are, right? The first thing, the first impression you're going to have of me is going to be content. No matter what the first thing anyone ever does is check someone out online, period. And that's it. So what's there is what you're putting there.
00:20:41
Speaker
It's interesting, there's a lot of talk these days about account based marketing or ABM and it's the idea that you would focus on a small number or a limited number of customers and you would personalize your marketing to them on a regular basis. So that rather than having a shotgun approach to marketing, it's very focused. And in some respects,
00:21:02
Speaker
Networking is really ABM. We are focused on a small number of people or a limited number of people that we want to have relationships with because as you say, it's a give and take relationship. We're always looking for something. And I think that's ironic because there's such a reliance on technology to make things happen. Relationships are fundamentally where marketing and sales happens.
00:21:29
Speaker
I agree with that because life is about relationships. I'm formerly relationship manager slash sales. I'm not a marketing guy. I'm in the marketing world now. That's what I do for a living.
00:21:39
Speaker
I can tell you the whole concept of funnels and lead gen and conversion rates, people get hooked on that and think that's the game. The first step takes you to what really matters, the relationship piece you reference. And that relationship piece is all that matters at that point. If I'm gonna play the game of my 10,000 leads go out and I get 1% conversion and I just have to keep doing this and I never build a relationship, there's no business there.
00:22:08
Speaker
How many times have you bought from a brand new online retailer you know amazon's great you like them they do a good job for you got a relationship with them. That's the way most people want that nobody wants to switch unless they're unhappy but it comes down to do i like these people do i have a relationship and firms have relationships you don't think of it this way but.
00:22:28
Speaker
Right now, I got Disney+. Most of us have Disney+. You can have seven accounts. I've got my friends and family on my account. No big deal. It's all free. At some point, I know they're going to convert those folks and start charging them. Now, that's manipulative if you think about it, but it's not really because it's Disney and it's a soft magic company and I like that.
00:22:46
Speaker
But Facebook, who's also trying to manipulate me by connections to try to find out who I connect with, that's manipulative and
Predictions and Future of Social Media
00:22:53
Speaker
evil. But Facebook I think of as this scary beast, so it's a different group. The relationship I have with Facebook is different from the relationship I have with Disney. And so people and companies, it's about relationship.
00:23:05
Speaker
Let me put you on the spot. Get your predictions for social media in 2021, particularly around LinkedIn, which has had a moment. I mean, the last year to 18 months has been tremendous for LinkedIn. I think they're close to 740 million users. And the other platform of interest these days is obviously Clubhouse. What are your thoughts about both those platforms in 2021? Sure.
00:23:30
Speaker
So you're not putting me on the spot at all. This is a tried and true formula. LinkedIn is going the way of Facebook. LinkedIn is great. I love LinkedIn. I've been on it as long as you have. It is getting jammed up with content. It's going to move to a pay to play kind of model where you want your content to have read, you're going to pay for it.
00:23:46
Speaker
And it evolves into the real value delivery folks will emerge because we just talked about that metrics game, the SEO optimization and keywords. That's not going to play in a world that's too crowded. It's going to become, I want to do business with Mark Evans because I like the guy. You just said it, the same with your journalist background.
00:24:08
Speaker
So as far as LinkedIn is concerned, it's going to continue to evolve into the real value delivery folks who have real communication skills and are able to attract the crowd because of the value they give to that crowd. I actually, I think Gary Vaynerchuk is a great example of that.
00:24:24
Speaker
And the world of Clubhouse, I've done probably two or three of these a week now for a month and a half, two months. And I can tell you, Clubhouse is, someone called it once a cross between a conference and a podcast. Clubhouse is going to get a ton of competition, right? Twitter is introducing their version of it. It's not just gonna be the only audio platform. So as the world gets flooded with more Clubhouses, and that'll happen,
00:24:52
Speaker
It becomes the feature everyone has. You're going to start to see the FOMO disappear, this fear of missing out, which is what's driving a lot of Clubhouse right now. We'll filter away. And then it goes back to the same old game of who brings real value. I know you're on Clubhouse, Mark. There's a lot of snake oil salesmen in there right now, especially in the how to build wealth, get rich rooms. Those folks will get flushed. And you're going to be left with folks who really bring content and contacts and helpful insights, guys like yourself.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that's gonna take probably a year to get to that point if you wanna really put time on that.
Content's Role in Business and Merging of Sales and Marketing
00:25:27
Speaker
But I think eventually Clubhouse becomes common, and I think it becomes more of a value delivery game. Life is always a value delivery game. Social media was really valuable at one point, now it's kinda noisy.
00:25:38
Speaker
One final question, and I would be remiss because having written three books, I understand that they are labors of love at the very most. And if you sell a book beyond your friends and family, you're doing really well. You've got a new book coming out called Content is the New Sales. What motivated this activity? Why did you embrace the idea of a book? Because it's a lot of work. And give us a little snapshot of what the book's about.
00:26:04
Speaker
Sure, so years ago when I was working on Wall Street, I recognized the value of bringing content to people, right? And this is before a pandemic, this is before lockdown. I used to post weekly articles and videos on LinkedIn and it drove a lot of business. And I recognized early on, okay, contents ate an avenue for selling.
00:26:22
Speaker
But now, as we all know in the world we live in, it's essentially the only avenue for selling. And so content is now replacing the in-person visit, as you referenced earlier. So what does that mean to business? As a businessman, and having worked in finance all these years, I can tell you it means that all of a sudden every salesperson has to become a content producer. Here's the dilemma now, and you'll relate to this, Mark. Salespeople aren't trained in the content channels. In fact, they're penalized for using them. They're not supposed to be on them.
00:26:52
Speaker
Marketing folks using their very a droid with the great however the marketing folks don't speak to the customers daily. And so they don't have the customer stories that the sales people have so what's gonna merge in the world of business in my view is going to be this.
00:27:08
Speaker
merging of sales and marketing. Right now, as it is, it used to be that marketing did most of the communication on the channels. Sales is going to start to take over more of that because they have the customer story, because they can recycle into look-alike content what they've already seen, and they'll need the marketing teams help to do that.
00:27:27
Speaker
So i think there's a new version of business emerging when call relationship management digital account manager you can turn what you like but it's it doesn't exist yet right now in car business today companies are still thinking of it as. Marketing got the channels sales takes it over from there it doesn't work like that anymore. When does the book come out and did you sell publish or did you get a publisher.
00:27:52
Speaker
It's self-published. The book will come out in three months. To be honest with you, I really feel like it's going to lay out the process of what companies need to do. What are the action steps you have to take? How do you integrate sales and marketing? What type of content works? The demographics, the psychographics of the channels. I know you're familiar with this, but salespeople aren't. For the most part, B2B sales folks
00:28:15
Speaker
They're not given the marketing background that they now or suddenly need to have. And by the way, with sales shut down for visits face to face, the C-suite's all looking at the marketing folks like, okay, let's make the revenue happen. And marketing's like, we know how to make the communication happen, but we don't have the customer information.
Final Thoughts and Contact Information
00:28:33
Speaker
Yeah, when the book comes out, let me know, obviously on LinkedIn, and I'll do my best to spread the word. Well, this has been a great conversation. I haven't talked about networking and the value of relationships in the podcast, so it's a nice change of pace from all the talk about technology. One final question, if people want to learn more about you and what you do, where are you on the web?
00:28:53
Speaker
Sure. I'm on all my social handles or Mark Angelo's NYC, which is where I'm from. And uh, Invictus.com with an A is my website. The last thing I'll tell you Mark, though, about the networking, some action steps for your people to take a daily practice, find some way to make a daily practice of leaving content on people's comments on people's content and ideally posting something value added. Cause there's so much garbage out there valuable where someone wants to learn about what you do. You give them a couple of tips daily practice.
00:29:23
Speaker
Awesome. Great way to end the podcast. Thanks for listening to another episode of Marketing Spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review and subscribe via iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. For show notes of today's conversation and information about Mark, visit marketingspark.co.
00:29:42
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about how I help B2B SaaS companies as a fractional CMO, strategic advisor, and coach, send an email to mark at marketingspark.co. I'll talk to you next time.