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A Rewarding Portfolio & Solving New Creative Issues with Andrew Hochradel
29 Plays2 months ago
Storytelling is at the heart of great design—and no one knows this better than Andrew Hochradel.
In this episode of The Creative Milestone, we sit down with Andrew Hochradel, a Creative for Hire and Content Strategist at Adobe, to talk about the power of storytelling in design. Andrew and I discuss creative problem-solving, navigating challenges as a new designer, and building a rewarding portfolio that is uniquely you.
This episode is a very very special
Follow @creativemilestone and our guest @hochdotco for more insights into building a meaningful creative career!
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:03
Speaker
Hi everyone and welcome to The Creative Milestone, the podcast where graphic designers, illustrators, and artists share their experience and advice for new creatives to reach new milestones. I'm Matthew Chakrow.
00:00:15
Speaker
I've been practicing graphic design for seven years now, but only recently joined at the creative industry two years ago. For a few years there, I struggled to enter the industry. But, the kindness and advice of others helped start my career.
00:00:28
Speaker
Now, as the creative job market has changed and gotten it harder and harder to enter, I wanted to use this platform to help new creatives that are looking for guidance in these trying times.
Influence of Mentorship in Creative Careers
00:00:37
Speaker
In these first four episodes, I'll be sitting down with the mentors that helped me find my footing.
00:00:42
Speaker
They'll be sharing with you the advice they gave me that changed my life. Our guest today is largely responsible for the outlook I have on the creative industry now. In 2023, Andrew gave me a portfolio review that would change my life.
00:00:54
Speaker
With the advice and the work he gave me in our first meeting, I was able to seize more opportunities thereafter. There's nobody better to close out our portfolio sessions than Andrew Hawkrattle. Andrew, do you mind introducing yourself?
00:01:06
Speaker
Hi, I'm Andrew Hawkrattle. And I think that's the first time that I've heard you pronounce your last name, which is crazy. And like we've known each other for a long time and I think that I've always pronounced it wrong. So I apologize for that. Yes, I'm Andrew Hawkrattle, equally alphabet soup of a last name. So I empathize with you.
00:01:22
Speaker
i do a lot of things. I'm just I like to say that I am a creative for hire. I do a little bit of everything. i had a friend who was a chef that said that they hire people that they just call knives for hire.
00:01:34
Speaker
And like that's like a term in the industry is like, oh, yeah, you should be able to like chop things and cook things and do whatever. And you're just a knife for hire and you go from kitchen to kitchen. And I was like, that's me. I feel like I am a good creative for hire that I can just pop around to wherever and fit in and just figure it out from whatever needs to get done creatively.
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So about my last name, funny enough, on Ryan's show, Final New, yesterday, he shouted out the podcast, this podcast, and he was like, oh, wait, I actually don't know how to say his last name.
00:02:05
Speaker
one more time for the listeners at home. Chokro? Chokro? Chokro. Chokro. I say Chokro just because it just comes out of my mouth that way. I say Chokro just because.
00:02:16
Speaker
Chokro. Well, so I'm the same way, and this going break a lot of people's brains who are familiar with me. So I was Andrew Hookrattle until college, and like all of my family still says Hookrattle, but in college, people started saying Hawkrattle, and it just like like people just knew me that I didn't know that knew me as Andrew Hawkrattle.
00:02:36
Speaker
And so i was like, I guess I got to go with it. And so it turned into Hawk Rattle. And so that's like Hawk.co and all that stuff. ah And it's technically the correct pronunciation, but all of my family says Hook Rattle. So if you ever see my parents, Mr. Mrs. Rattle. You just define what it is to you.
00:02:51
Speaker
But you mentioned something pretty interesting that I want to get into. What was college like for you?
Educational Pathways in Design
00:02:56
Speaker
Yes. So I was, I always said that I wanted to just like make a living being creative. And people were like, what do you want to when up? I'm like, I don't care. I just want to like make a living being creative.
00:03:05
Speaker
So I went into school as a theater major. I was a big theater kid. And so went into the theater major and then realized that is like a really tough profession to like turn into a career. And so switched from theater over into English. I was a big writer. I loved reading. And then from English, I started getting involved in the yearbook and the newspaper in college. And so I loved writing. And so I'd write stories.
00:03:32
Speaker
um I started getting into photography. I love doing like photojournalism. And so I started doing design with the newspaper and the yearbook and loved it. And so I switched my major then to design. And so I ended up co-majoring in design and public relations. So a little bit of journalism and a little bit of design. And that way I was like editor-in-chief of the yearbook, editor-in-chief of the newspaper. And I got the experience of curating content and like really building a story while also doing design and writing and journalism at the same time. So that's always my advice is like, if you're going to college or school for something and your design degree is a certain amount of credits and you have like extra credits available to,
00:04:14
Speaker
do whatever, like you can get like, you know, 18 credits a semester and it's only nine of those go toward your major. See if you can like double major in something by doing an extra class one year or two years and then do design and something else. Cause it's always like way better to have a context outside of just design. It makes you way more marketable.
00:04:34
Speaker
Speaking of that context outside of design, you identify as a creative, not just now, but way back when in college. What was that portfolio looking like in college?
00:04:46
Speaker
Oh, gosh, I have my portfolio from college somewhere. So my portfolio from college was a mix of personal projects and class projects. I had a like packaging project that I remember that I loved.
00:04:59
Speaker
I created like a CD case for Daft Punk and I took like a sewer grate with sprinkler heads and created like this pedestal to where I then put lights inside the grate and then put the CD snapped on like at the bottom side of the grate. So it was like glowing, like primary colors from the lights and then have like the CD like locked on underneath, which was rad. I had photography. i had design. I had print stuff.
00:05:28
Speaker
So I had a little bit of everything. I had a lot of yearbook work. um I had some apparel design in there, some like t-shirts I did. And so I think that it was a mix of personal projects and assigned projects.
00:05:40
Speaker
And it was very much segmented. I think I had like literal columns that was like photography, design, and like miscellaneous. And I have my site. I think I can still find my site somewhere. When I was on your show, Office of I was with Nick Longo. I think you pulled up. your old portfolio. Yes, I think I did. Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker
I shared my old one too. Yeah. Yes. So it it was very much trying to just be a little bit of everything. And kind of jumping back into the now, in your experience, does does that work still?
00:06:06
Speaker
I don't think so. So when I'm looking to hire people or looking at people that are trying to like market themselves, if it's a student or a portfolio, I usually only care about one thing. And that isn't like i have a specific thing. In general, I care about one of the things that you're presenting to me.
00:06:23
Speaker
There's not a lot of time if you're looking for a job, like your employer is not invested in you yet. And so I think trying to sell multiple things is always not a good idea. Anytime I see your portfolio that is like illustration and photography and design, I'm like, pick which one of these you want me to care about and you're just gonna do one of those.
00:06:41
Speaker
And that's kind of what's happened with me in the career is like, sure, I still like doing photography, but I don't get hired for photography. I like doing illustration. I don't get hired for illustration. I get hired for design. And so my portfolio is design. It's a ton of design work that sometimes incorporates photography that sometimes incorporates other things, but lands with design. So if you're building a portfolio, my advice is always make me care about one thing and make me like really care about it. Because the more you spread my interest, the less I care about all of it, which sounds harsh. But I think that like employers think that too, when they're looking through a portfolio.
00:07:16
Speaker
I think that's true. I think portfolio reviewers tend to be a little bit harsh, but I think they should be. i don't think there's anything wrong with that. But when I was on your show, Office Hours, you asked me more specifically, generalist or
Specialist vs. Generalist Debate in Creativity
00:07:27
Speaker
specialist? And I want to shoot that question back at you.
00:07:29
Speaker
Which one? Yes, i think so. Generalist, you have more... consistency in your work and you have a broader client base specialist, you get paid more and it's projects that are more fun to work on. So it really depends on what you want and what's right for you.
00:07:50
Speaker
There were times that I was doing generalist work because I had just started freelance and I needed it. Like I was doing pamphlets for like healthcare and I was doing like slides for like offices, mindless production work that I'm like, literally you could walk to any design school and any of the students could be doing this work, but I'm doing it now.
00:08:06
Speaker
And this is like after a degree, after eight years of experience in the industry, i was doing this like work that was just low level, whatever, because I'm like, I need work and you need to be a generalist to get work. If you need it, just be a generalist.
00:08:20
Speaker
ah But as I started to grow, then I started to get more specialists to where I started to do more projects that were right for me. I started to do more personal projects and I started to get hired for projects that were like specifically suited for me.
00:08:32
Speaker
And still I get emails. I literally just got an email last night that was like, Hey, was working on this project and we put together a mood board and one of your things was on it. And I really think that like, we could have you work on it because your style fits what we're looking for.
00:08:45
Speaker
And so having a style like that, it is that clients start to come after you instead of you going after clients. It's usually more fun to work on. And it usually pays more because like they're paying for your specific perspective But you could get one or two of those a year as opposed to a generalist.
00:09:00
Speaker
You can have like retainer clients. and You can have a bunch of work throughout the year. So it really depends. i lean on being a specialist because it's easier for me to work as a specialist because I can like really focus on what I want to actually create.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think something that I tend to say to students whenever they're asking me nowadays is that I think it's actually expected for most designers to be able to do generalist work, but it's the specialist work that actually makes you stand out amongst the crowd of designers that is also going after the same role that you are.
00:09:29
Speaker
Yes. So you kind of mentioned a little bit earlier that you were doing low level work that you didn't really like for roughly eight years. How did you get
Personal Projects and Creative Originality
00:09:37
Speaker
out of that? I wasn't doing it for that long. I was doing like the low level stuff for like probably three years.
00:09:43
Speaker
Okay. They ended up just terminating the contracts. Like it it had just gotten to the point where they decided to like hire somebody in house. I was on a retainer with them and they decided to take it in house. And so, yeah, when it ended, it was a lot of what am i going to do? And I was like, oh my gosh, like I needed that work.
00:09:59
Speaker
But that allowed me to go after more work and really hustle to like reach out more to really get scrappy and try to figure out new stuff. That's when I like started to get more connected with the Adobe live team and really push on trying to like work more with Adobe and get commissions and that kind of stuff. And then also started reaching out more. That's when i started doing personal projects to try to get more work. And that's really the catalyst for like when I had to hit the ground running and really get scrappy from being a freelancer.
00:10:27
Speaker
Mm hmm. Can you take me through your story little bit? Obviously, we've talked so much about how you got started with a specific very specific collaboration that you were really hustling for and that you were really going after. Can you maybe talk more about that time with Southwest?
00:10:42
Speaker
Yes. Love Southwest Airlines. Big fan. Every year for my birthday, I gift myself a project. I need to figure out what I'm going to do because my birthday is in like a month. But is it March already? It's March already. Okay. Yeah. So I have like, I could just start working.
00:10:54
Speaker
So every year gift myself a project. And so that year Southwest had sent out a tweet of like some of their old boarding cards. And I was like, those look dope. I have an idea and I have a story to tell. And those are usually the things that make the best personal projects. It's like, if you have a good idea that you know how you're going to execute it,
00:11:12
Speaker
and you have a story to tell with it, it's a really good means for a personal project. So created a merch line to pitch to Southwest, cold pitch on social media, wanted to try to get some community engagement there, started to get some traction, and then nothing really happened. And I just kind of kept pounding the pavement, and I told Southwest, I'm gonna keep making stuff until you put something in your store.
00:11:31
Speaker
And so I just made like 20 other things and kept going and going and going. And eventually got to collaborate, got their attention. And we ended up launching a merch line together, which was really cool. um First ever collaboration they'd done like an artist series and got to launch that, sold it out and really had a great time turning a personal project into something that ended up being a great professional project and just a really good case study to put in portfolio and to talk about on podcasts and conferences and things like this.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah, so taking this example of a personal project and blowing it up like crazy, what can students do to make these amazing personal projects that both speak to them but also professionally?
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's really quality and consistency. So deliver high quality stuff over a long amount of time. So not necessarily like, cool, I did like a big splash. You need to have a big splash and then follow that up with like, where is the story going? What am I trying to tell? What's the end goal of where I want to take the client and push toward that, right? It never is about just like, we did a thing.
00:12:37
Speaker
It's like, cool, I have this idea and I need to tell this story fully. And hopefully someone... listens to the story with me or wants to join me in the story or pays me to tell this story. But either way, I'm telling the story all the way through.
00:12:50
Speaker
And I think that people sometimes like get discouraged when the goal is to get a job or the goal is to find a client or like get the recognition or the social interaction. There's plenty of projects I've done that I'm like, oh, here's a story I want to tell.
00:13:04
Speaker
and I go tell it and nobody cares about it. And I'm like, that's fine. Like I still told the story I wanted to tell. Uh, but that's the real focus for the personal project is have a story to tell and know how you're going to tell the whole story.
00:13:16
Speaker
And let's pull a fun example here. one of my first thorough portfolio review was with Andrew and there was a personal project in there that he shouted out. Do you remember what what that was like? or should I pull up the page? Hold on. Uh, I think the personal project that I called out that I thought was cool.
00:13:33
Speaker
Was it the, was it ampersand stuff? Yes, it was. Okay. That's what I thought. It was Amber and Stan stuff. And I was really impressed that you had like not only had the idea for something that you had like fully executed it. And I was like, oh, you went all the way through this.
00:13:48
Speaker
And like, it is unique to you and the story you want to tell. And you like are telling that story to its fullest. And that's the stuff that always gets me that I'm like, okay, you understood what you were doing and you executed it That to me is showing you can do a campaign. You can do the work that I would hire for someone for. You're not just going to like pop in and out. And this honestly opens a broader conversation that we started ah maybe like a week ago, but then we started making ramen at an offsite. So we did not continue this part of the we did not continue this part of the conversation, but what I've noticed between graphic designers that inspired me and creatives that inspired me from when I was younger, graphic designers that started in the 90s and graphic designers that are starting now aren't really pursuing personal projects anymore.
00:14:33
Speaker
Yes. Well, yeah. It's a very common theme that I've started to see, and it actually makes me very sad as a creative because I want to see who you are. i don't want to hear about who you are. I want to see it.
00:14:45
Speaker
yeah So are there any problems or are there any common threads that you've seen with a decrease in personal projects? I think that there is this like overarching trend that like we're on social media, we're seeing what everyone else is doing. And we're trying to like follow a trend and like, like catch the lightning that is happening in that moment. And so I see a lot of people doing like the same work or doing like the projects that everyone's doing. Like, everybody has an album covering their portfolio. Everybody has like a catalog of some sort and it's like Warby Parker or like Anthropologie.
00:15:17
Speaker
The stuff that everyone else is doing, we feel like we have to do it because culture right now is so on trends that it's like you have to get... The trend is it's happening and then you'll go viral and whatever.
00:15:30
Speaker
And like, that doesn't really matter. Great. Having views and having audience is awesome. But like, I don't care about the work if you are like the same as someone else's work, right? This is how I feel about weddings. This is such a hot take, but I don't care.
00:15:42
Speaker
Every time I go to wedding, I'm sitting there and I'm like, somebody's already lived your life. Like somebody's already done this. Why are you doing it and trying to like make it seem like it's this new amazing thing that like you've thought of for the first time?
00:15:56
Speaker
I went to like 14 weddings one year and I was like, I don't ever everyone need to do this again. And so I think the same thing with portfolios that like there are a lot of times I look at portfolios and I'm like, someone else has lived your life. I know this story. There's no twist. There's no turns. There's nothing interesting here to me.
00:16:10
Speaker
I need to know something about you. I need to see something interesting, see something new. I need to spark interest. And I think that's where personal projects come in. to where I'll see something and be like, this is so unique.
00:16:21
Speaker
I haven't seen someone else because it's your interest, right? It's your perspective on something that you are passionate about, not something that you're just doing because everyone else is doing it. Weddings.
00:16:34
Speaker
Hot takes. I'm trying so hard to hold back an insane amount of laughter. Keep the wedding in there, 100%. I will fight anybody on that. I think weddings are so dumb.
00:16:45
Speaker
Oh. Are there any other issues that you've seen with these new portfolios? You mentioned that, oh, they all kind of look the same, but that answer is a little broad. Is there anything you can maybe tighten it down to again? Yes, I think that I can tell that it's a lot of things that other people told you to do. And even if your professor tells you that like, this is the project or this is what you need to do, make your own, right? I was such, so I taught for a long time and I am such a proponent of like students fighting me.
00:17:14
Speaker
Like I want every student to be like, I don't wanna do that. ah And I think that like almost every professor would be okay with that. That it's like, oh, you need to do a booklet for Warby Parker and you're going to do an annual report that's going to go in your portfolio. And I'd be like, I don't care about Warby Parker.
00:17:32
Speaker
don't have a story to tell about Warby Parker. Like, i don't understand. Like, what are you talking about? And I don't care at all about annual reports. I don't want to be doing annual reports. But you know what I do love? I love collectibles. and I wanna do a collectible booklet that's the new catalog for the new GI i Joe series with O-rings that's coming out and do something that would be at like a trade show, right? Then I'm like, that's the same thing.
00:17:58
Speaker
Like it's the same end product, but your passion and your story is like so much more unique and is more out of what you are passionate about and not something that someone told you to do.
00:18:09
Speaker
And that's when like you start to see the extra things in the projects that like I'll see like, oh, you know, I was supposed to create a booklet for this project, which we'll talk about soft skills of presenting in a second. But like, oh, I had to create this thing. But then I also wanted to create like my own toy. And so I made like a card backer. And then I also wanted to do like a vehicle. And so I made like custom decals that you can put on like existing things and like print out stickers and like That's when I start to see that you're passionate, that you can tell a story, that you can really take an idea and maximize it, and that you can own an idea ah outside of just like someone else telling you what to do.
00:18:44
Speaker
So for designers now that are encountering those problems of not fighting for themselves, Where do you think they can find that confidence to maybe advocate for their own ideas or even find those ideas
Building Confidence and Pitching Ideas
00:18:57
Speaker
to start?
00:18:57
Speaker
Yep. ah It's really hard. The confidence is the hardest thing I think about being a student moving into the actual industry and putting your portfolio together is feeling confident in your work. And what I did, because I'm a theater major, or was a theater major, I'm a theater kid.
00:19:13
Speaker
And so it's weird and interesting, but like pretend. Pretend that you are playing a character that is confident. Like that you are like, cool, I'm Mr. Business.
00:19:24
Speaker
And you're like, I'm going to go in as Mr. Business and I'm to present my business work to the business people. And like, okay, what would Mr. Business do? And just like pretend, and then it will become...
00:19:35
Speaker
the reality, like literally just like cosplay as someone that is confident or like that someone is presenting their work. And maybe it's someone that you've seen present before, right? Watch a YouTube video and then just try to be like, okay, what did they do that I can like steal or a fake that until it becomes a part of how I present.
00:19:55
Speaker
And there's a lot of like people that I want like, and it can be from anything. So like I'd watch like Alton Brown, Anthony Bourdain, like people that are communicators that are so confident about who they are and how they present that I'm just like, cool. What are things that they do that work well in communication?
00:20:13
Speaker
And right, like Alton Brown is so good about like presenting concepts and ideas and being like kind of flippant and fun about it. And so I'm like, oh, i like that tone of voice. Let's pull that in. Right. And Anthony Bourdain is very like intentional in the word he says. And I'm like, cool, I can pull that in a presentation. So.
00:20:29
Speaker
It's about understanding and crafting what your voice is. But until then, just like steal from other people and pretend to have those things. And then you'll figure out what sticks and what doesn't and what works specifically for you.
00:20:43
Speaker
It's hard though. Yeah. So in those moments that required you to use confidence, take me into the mind of Andrew Hochraddle. What is going on in there? What are you saying to yourself? Or maybe what is, what do you feel that is actualizing between the moment that you realize you need confidence and then the moment you portray that confidence?
00:21:02
Speaker
Yes. So what I would do when I was pitching ah like a huge campaign, right? That I'm like, cool, this is the biggest campaign of the year. i have an idea that's like totally insane, but I know that it's,
00:21:16
Speaker
interesting and like, I'm excited about it. And I think that it would like resonate well, right. That I'm like in my brain, i have it planned out. I'm going in prepared and I will defend my idea because I know that it's good. And I know what I'm going to do Right. I've done my homework.
00:21:32
Speaker
done it. I have the skill to execute this and I know the story is going to be and going into pitch to like executives or whatever. I would have to like hype myself up to basically convince myself that this is like the best idea of all time.
00:21:47
Speaker
Because if you pitch something at like 120%, like your client is going to be like 60% excited about it Like it's always way less than what you're doing.
00:21:57
Speaker
And so there are times, and I don't think I said this to you, but I said it to people the day that we did our portfolio reviews, is if you come in and you present your portfolio at like 50% energy and like 50% confidence, you're like, I did this because like, i don't know, it's like whatever. And like,
00:22:12
Speaker
It's pretty cool. And I also have this project here is like, I will stop you and just be like, I don't care because you don't care. Like you are giving me 50% and I now only have 20% to give you. I already was at like 80% because I got a million other things I'm thinking about as an employer, as someone looking to hire, right? Like I'm, I'm talking to other people.
00:22:32
Speaker
I got 80 other things to do that day I need to, to make what you are presenting to me the most important part of my day and like have that urgency and have that sense of you are going to miss out on this project like and so I would have to sit and hype myself up and basically convince myself that this is the best idea I've ever had that it is going to go flawlessly that every little detail is perfectly placed that I've done my homework And then I know that this is going to go over well because it never does. They're like everyone always pokes holes in your ideas. Your pitch is missing something.
00:23:08
Speaker
You don't think of one of the elements. But if you go in feeling like and confident that you have everything sorted out, that's when it like the ideas go through.
00:23:20
Speaker
Like you have to pitch it like it's the best idea you've ever had. We're talking a lot about faking it until you make it. Yeah. It's fake until it's real. Yes. And like, here's the thing. Nobody's going to tell you that you can't do that.
00:23:32
Speaker
That's what I love. And that's what I've kind of learned to do is anytime that there's something that I should do, i try to figure out what I could do. Right. That I'm like, Oh, i have a pitch to do like, Oh, I should like create a deck and do a PowerPoint template. And I'm like, what if I,
00:23:48
Speaker
like laser printed the qr code on like square marshmallows and they had to like scan it and then make s'mores while they learned about this like new brand for their camping brand.
00:24:00
Speaker
Right. That it's like, what can you do to subvert their expectations and take them out of the world they're living in and like into your world for a second, right? To be like, hold on, pause whatever you are doing today because this hour is going to be the most interesting and important hour of your day.
00:24:18
Speaker
and like, I am immediately off the bat and like pulling you out of anything that you are thinking about and making you pay attention to my pitch. with like an intentional experience, which I had a student do that like way back in the day.
00:24:31
Speaker
They did their senior portfolio and she served hot chocolate with marshmallows like floating on top. And the marshmallows had been laser printed, like laser burned with a QR code that linked to her portfolio. She was handing out cups with like floating marshmallows. and i was like, this this is the greatest idea I've ever seen.
00:24:47
Speaker
And what a great way for me to not look at anyone else's portfolios and just want to experience you. Like, and that's what you need do with clients is like, pull them out of the nine other people you're talking about and make them pay attention to you.
00:24:58
Speaker
hu Make it and an experience the same way that this person making hot chocolate with a QR code on a marshmallow did the same. And I need to find who that student is. I need to like send some texts and figure out who it is so that i can shout them out somewhere.
00:25:12
Speaker
ah But yeah, Student from CBU Design. you Yeah. In like 2017, best portfolio that stuck with me for the longest time.
00:25:24
Speaker
I kind of wanted to point out what you're talking about and maybe use a different verbiage so some of our listeners can really digest what Andrew was saying here. Andrew is identifying every single problem and creatively solving every single problem. He's looking at every problem to the minute detail of, oh, it's been done before, and that's the problem.
Innovative Portfolio and Presentation Strategies
00:25:44
Speaker
That's the problem that he needs to go solve. So really, it's identifying what's already been done, seeing that as a problem, and then flipping it on its head and completely making it his own.
00:25:55
Speaker
It's very much, I mean, that's all we do as creatives, is we do problem solving, we do translating. Like we are translating a like audible, like sometimes or sometimes like another sense of communication into visual. Like that's just, we just translate.
00:26:11
Speaker
And then I do think that it's like, we find problems and we solve them. And i think so many students solve them in the same way that you have to figure out like, what is the different way to solve this problem?
00:26:24
Speaker
Like what is, what gets to the end goal in a way that no one has walked before? So we've been talking a lot in our specific session here about the issues that we're kind of seeing with designers now, either within their portfolio or within their way of thinking. How has that affected the presentation of the portfolio? And then let's get into what that has changed for designers now.
00:26:49
Speaker
I think everything has become so systematic that like, I think that there are so many portfolios that just feel like they are what they should do.
00:27:03
Speaker
That like, they don't, know what to do and don't have the confidence to explore new ideas. And it's easier to do what someone else has done or to kind of just fall in line with like, okay, cool. I need five to 10 projects in my portfolio. I need to have one that's really good at the beginning, one that's really good at the end, and then something in the middle that's memorable.
00:27:24
Speaker
The things you hear in design school, that's what they should do. And I see so many portfolios that are that. And sometimes that works. But the ones that are interesting to me and the ones that I think stand out are the ones that kind of just like throw that on the head and think the goal of this portfolio is to stand out, to get hired, to communicate what work I'm passionate about, right? Who says that you have to do it in this way of, you know, one project here, one project at the end, one project in the middle, five to 10 projects.
00:27:54
Speaker
How else can you accomplish that goal? Right. And I think that that's the thing that's missing is a lot of students, a lot of early career portfolios are focused on the goal and the way to get to that goal are locked together.
00:28:08
Speaker
And really the goal is getting hired, getting noticed, getting your work out there. And there is not a defined way that you need to do that. I think there's a lot of opinions. There's a lot of good advice out there, but ultimately it's up to you to define what is your process to get to that goal?
00:28:26
Speaker
yeah And are you willing to challenge yourself enough to try something new and fail? Yeah. Sometimes. How does a new creative kind of look inside, look introspectively and find that good project that will essentially do everything we've discussed?
00:28:42
Speaker
Yeah. Everyone has a story to tell and everyone has like a passion about something. And so I just think, what is something that's been impactful to you? What is a story that you have to tell that like has helped shape your worldview or helped shape the perspective that you create through?
00:29:00
Speaker
Right. I think that like we all have this conversation, like everything's already been made and like, you know, everything's already been designed, which is like probably true. But the real magic is the perspective and the filter that is you, that you telling that story is different than the way that anyone else would tell that story.
00:29:17
Speaker
Right. And like you have like work that is like, cool. You have an apparel brand. A bunch of people have apparel brands. Everyone is done. Like t-shirts have happened. Great. Like ampersands. Great. There's a hundred million ampersands out there that like designers are making ampersands, but It's unique to you because you have perspective.
00:29:37
Speaker
You have this background. You have this culture, this story to tell that you're bringing into like that ampersand, into that shirt, into the like merch line that you're creating. And so it's interesting and unique.
00:29:49
Speaker
and stands out on your own because you have that story to tell from your own perspective and i think that that's when you are more hireable and when you can start like charging more if you're doing freelance is when you have a perspective to sell as opposed to just a skill everybody's got skills but having a perspective is really where the money comes from okay now i'm actually going to get controversial here because i actually think Some graphic designers now lack certain skills that they really shouldn't be lacking in anymore.
00:30:18
Speaker
Maybe more specific to illustration. When we're reviewing portfolios nowadays, there really doesn't seem to be a custom aspect to those portfolios. Maybe specifically in branding, how we don't see a really cool mascot character anymore, a really cool logo in these new student portfolios.
00:30:35
Speaker
Yes. Literally, if anyone else in your class is the same mock-up as you, don't use it. If your mock-up is on a white background, don't use it. If it's like floating in space, don't use it. If it's at a 45 degree angle on a phone with a bunch of other phones, don't use it.
00:30:48
Speaker
There are so many things that are the standard now that are just the same as everyone else. Figure out how to take that and instead of it being the end product, use it as a template to remix it into what you want it to be.
00:31:04
Speaker
Right. And that's where the skills come in is like, you need to have the skills to make your own mockup, like learn how to make a mockup. Great. It's more work. And it's not like going to show a project that you did, but like make your own mockup. And then you're going to stand out. Even if it's the same project that everyone else has done, you can present it in a different way.
00:31:24
Speaker
But you have to have the skills that are extended outside of just being able to like make a logo on a solid background and slap it onto a PSD template that you downloaded off of Adobe stock that like wraps it around the corner of a tote.
00:31:38
Speaker
Like, I don't want to see that. ah figure out where does this logo live? What is the context? What is the story? And like, where am I as the viewer in this case study? Where are you taking me? What's the, like, what does it smell like? What are the things that are around me when I'm experiencing this?
00:31:55
Speaker
That's the stuff that I want to see in a portfolio, not just that your logo is good and that it's been slapped on a bunch of stuff. Yeah, and I'm just going to supplement the story Andrew was telling here with my own work that he reviewed two years ago now.
00:32:09
Speaker
Again, I had made this clothing brand and I didn't just throw this design on a t-shirt. No, I printed the design on a t-shirt and then I went to the the theme for this brand release was Chinatowns in California. I went to to a Chinatown and took these beautiful photos with amazing lighting from these lanterns in the background.
00:32:26
Speaker
And I made that into a reality and i made it into that space, which shows so much more than just finding something on Unsplash and then throwing it on there. It brings it into reality. And that's what portfolio reviewers and people that are hiring and looking for.
00:32:42
Speaker
They're looking for a reality in this world that we're in, regardless of whether or not it's quote unquote fake. Who cares if it's fake? Oh, literally, if you have an assigned project that is for an imaginary client, just like who cares? Like make it make it as if it's a real thing.
00:32:58
Speaker
Nobody knows every business that's ever existed and your clients surely aren't going to go like research. Just present it like it's a real thing. if you have a cool idea, make it and make it convincing enough that it looks like it's a real thing. And nobody's going to be like, this isn't real. It's about the work. If if the work is good, then the work is good.
00:33:15
Speaker
As we're talking about personal projects, something that I've actually had to say to a lot of students recently is that you are your own client. Find your problem, figure it out. You don't need another client to tell you what to do.
00:33:27
Speaker
You are a client, so do the work for yourself. Yes. But I think for me, what I've noticed is that a lack in these personal projects nowadays is because graphic designers lack excitement for the work they do now.
Balancing Passion Projects and Client Work
00:33:42
Speaker
Is this something you've noticed? Hmm. Yes. Fight me on this if you, okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm just trying to, I'm trying to think. Cause you, you mentioned as they're talking about their portfolio, they're kind of going, yeah, whatever, whatever.
00:33:55
Speaker
And I think to some point, obviously it's a confidence thing, but then when you start talking to them about it and realize, oh wait, you're actually not that excited about this. Yeah. I think that,
00:34:06
Speaker
That goes back to being used to being assigned things, right? Like we've all been in school for so long that we've just been assigned things and we accomplish the assignment, finish the assignment, and then it's done.
00:34:16
Speaker
And being assigned things in design school is for you to practice and for you to develop your skills. It's not for you to like complete an assignment. Like figure out how you can augment that to something that you are excited about.
00:34:30
Speaker
Like you should be so excited to go to class and present your project and not be like nervous or not be like, oh my gosh, I'm cramming at the last minute to just like get something in. You should go in and yeah, you should go in and be super excited about it.
00:34:44
Speaker
I'm not saying guys do that for every project. I like, think that you pick like one a month. Right, if you're in design school, pick like one of your projects to really go in on.
00:34:57
Speaker
And then some of the other ones, like if you're not passionate about it and you can't find a story and it's something that you're just like, I have just have to do this. I don't have a story. I'm not excited about it. Just do it. Just check the box. There's plenty of work that you'll get in the industry if you're in-house or freelance.
00:35:11
Speaker
That you're like, don't care about it. Getting a check, signing this off. Who cares, right? It doesn't all have to be your best work, but find something that you're passionate about so that when you, and like, don't put that work in your portfolio.
00:35:24
Speaker
Like literally that work doesn't exist. Like get your check and just burn it. ah But have your portfolio be things that you're all excited about. That like you have like invested the time, invested in the story and you are stoked on the work you did and what you're trying to communicate.
00:35:40
Speaker
um And then the other projects just like check a box, get your grade and then never come back to it again. Yeah. So the episode previous to this one, Tyler Pate, he said something really interesting with me that has stuck with me. At one point he just goes, I forget bad work.
00:35:55
Speaker
Oh yeah. And I was like, wow, like the most amazing go vector illustrator that we know in our circles is saying, ah, who cares? Yeah. I don't remember. There are so many times that like I'll send something to a client to like buy time that you're like, cool. I like send this to a client because they need it like ASAP and I don't have time to work on it. So I'm just going to like send this through and be like, I know there's going to be feedback. I know that there's things that need to change.
00:36:21
Speaker
It's just turned into a nightmare project. I just want to get it done. They're going to come back with a million more revisions and you just send through something to like give them something to look at. And they're like, yeah, this is great. And you're like, i see like 10 things wrong with this that like we should explore, we should do differently. But you know what? The client loves it.
00:36:38
Speaker
We're moving on to something else that I am passionate about, that I'm excited about. And this is just gonna be a check, sign it off. And even though I'm not happy, if the client's happy, great. Like sometimes you just got to say sure and move on. And then there are projects that you're like, the client's happy, but I'm not happy.
00:36:55
Speaker
So let's wrap up that project. And then I'm going to go back and change it for my portfolio because I don't like what the client did, but I like what I did. So my portfolio is going to be what I did. There's no one telling you that you have to go with what the client wants because sometimes the client is wrong.
00:37:08
Speaker
Yeah. And I, again, for all their listeners, I want to highlight some of these key points Andrew is talking about here. Number one, put your all into some of your schoolwork.
00:37:19
Speaker
But something we're also highlighting here is that if you're not happy with the way a client project turned out or even the way a school assignment is turning, you don't need to put that in your portfolio. You can just present something that'll get you that grade, that'll get you that buy off of your client saying, yep,
00:37:34
Speaker
I like it. You might not be happy with it, but you will save so much time by not stressing so much about it and putting that time back into your personal projects to figure out what you're going to do.
00:37:44
Speaker
You might not do it within that month, but you should still attempt it because not a lot of designers are attempting that anymore. Yeah. So they're designers. So tying it back to our portfolios, we've discussed there is a lack of excitement.
00:37:59
Speaker
We've discussed that a lot of people are just following these similar trends, maybe in the way that they are presented. Is there anything specific to layout in a portfolio that you see time and time again that is overplayed that that if you see it,
00:38:13
Speaker
you're already gone. yeah You're mentally gone by that point. There's usually, if there's a lack of context or there's too much text, like if there's too much text and you're trying to like set the context of your project with text and like explanation, I'm like, I just want you to transport me there.
00:38:30
Speaker
Like you're making me walk there by reading through a bunch of text. I want you to just like teleport me into your project, teleport me into this space, right? um I wanna see like big, bold, boom image that's like, whoa, what is this?
00:38:44
Speaker
And then take me into that space, right? And that is, if you're doing branding for a coffee shop, Don't just show me the logo. Don't just show me like sketches right away or like a long brief about like, here's the problem that I was solving and how we addressed it.
00:38:56
Speaker
Like, take me in there. Show me like reclaimed wood and show me like, you know, steaming coffee. And it doesn't all have to have your logo on it. doesn't have to be your work. You need to set the context for like where this project exists.
00:39:10
Speaker
And I think that that's what I see in portfolios the most is that it's so much about their work. And I was like, I don't really care about... Sitting in your illustrator file and looking at what you did.
00:39:22
Speaker
I want to feel like I am experiencing this brand in real time. Right. And that's when like, if I see it on a coffee cup, that's like being held by someone and friends are having a conversation. I'm like, Oh, I I've done that before. I've gone to a coffee shop with a friend and I start to feel like,
00:39:38
Speaker
okay, I understand this space. Like I can, I know what the space smells like because they're roasting the, you know, coffee in the background. I know like how it sounds and I like am overwhelmed with the sounds, but then I look at this, you know, merch piece that is maybe, you know, it's like a,
00:39:56
Speaker
a koozie for your uh coffee that's like warm and like i'm and so i want to be able to feel things i want to be able to experience the space and experience your brand and not just the logo i want like just more i want to be encompassed in the work that you've created So don't ever show me just a logo. Don't ever show me one of those pages that has like, here okay, so here's what i see.
00:40:21
Speaker
I see here are my sketches. I see here are my logos in different sizes and different orientations. And then it goes into here are the colors that I picked with all the CMYKs and RGB. I don't care about that.
00:40:34
Speaker
um I'm not a printer. Like, why are you showing me RGB colors and CMYKs? I'm not, I'm not mixing ink. ah And then it goes to typography. And then it's like, here are the fonts that I picked and how they pair.
00:40:46
Speaker
I don't care about those details. I'm not sitting in your illustrator file. I want to see how you piece those together, right? You're showing me like puzzles of a pieces of a puzzle. and not showing me the puzzle that that that's usually what i feel when i see student projects is you are showing me all the pieces that you created and how good those pieces are but not how those pieces go together and that's what i'm more interested in is that you can put pieces together and tell a story with it and that's where like photography comes in that's where you know just use stock imagery go to stock.w.com free stock
00:41:19
Speaker
free stop Um, you can go and use that to help build your story. And that's what I want to see is like the complete puzzle put together, not the individual elements. Like that's when you lose me on a project is when I get to the typography and you're five slides deep in like just illustrator artboards that you've exported.
00:41:38
Speaker
Like I'm out. I need to like really get into feeling how that brand looks.
Career Transitions and Embracing Change
00:41:43
Speaker
Moving away a little bit now from student portfolios because in reality, you're not going to be doing them as much as you used to because you're no longer on the Adobe Live community. It's true. You're no longer doing Adobe Live live streams as much as you have now. Yes. cause You're moving away from that. Yes.
00:42:00
Speaker
And i kind of wanted to touch on that because That has been such a big portion of your life in the last few years. And we haven't talked since I think the day before that last stream.
00:42:13
Speaker
Yes, I think so. Yeah. Yes. So i left the Adobe Live team. um I had been contracting with Adobe, helping to run the Adobe Live team and curate content and work with streamers and find people like you.
00:42:26
Speaker
ah to come on and help out with live streams and helping to like educate ah people on how to use Adobe tools. And so I've been doing that for about three years. And so I contracted with Adobe for three years as a contract employee.
00:42:37
Speaker
um And I had been doing Adobe Live for almost seven years of then of doing live streams and focusing on educating people, doing demos on how to use the products. Ended up leaving the Adobe live team in November, i was still helping out with stuff past then kind of helping with the person who took over that contract.
00:42:57
Speaker
but And I wanted to like post something. and if i posted on Instagram that was kind of just a recap and that like an announcement that I was leaving the Adobe live team, but do have something and working on something super exciting. I can't talk about it for a while, which is the worst.
00:43:10
Speaker
It is very bittersweet to wrap up that like on camera teaching people how to use Photoshop, how to use illustrator, but I am, Very, very excited for what comes next.
00:43:20
Speaker
To tie it all back together. Where did you find that confidence to take that leap into a completely different role after you'd been comfortable for the last maybe three years? Yeah, it always comes back to having a story to tell and having a perspective to share. Like same thing that I say when I was looking at personal projects or when I'm giving advice on how to present your projects.
00:43:43
Speaker
I this new opportunity and knew that I had a deep connection to it, that I had a story to tell with it, and that I knew how I could execute that to be able to have a big impact.
00:43:59
Speaker
And so that's why it was so exciting to me because all the boxes checked out to where I'm passionate, my perspective matches what the goal is, and I'm able to...
00:44:10
Speaker
know how I'm going to get to that goal and execute it well. And so that's where I got the confidence to make the jump because it is scary and different and so stressful.
00:44:22
Speaker
ah But being able to know that I have a story to tell, And all I need to do is tell that story and execute the steps well to get to that end goal.
00:44:33
Speaker
It makes it less scary because it's so personal to me. And all I'm doing is trying to tell the story that I have and bring people into that with me, which is cool. Yeah. How does that confidence move its way and work in tandem with ambition?
00:44:47
Speaker
I don't think I'm ambitious. I think why i i know. I don't think that I'm ambitious. I think that Amy and Jen Hood had like the best advice ever, like forever ago.
00:44:58
Speaker
They talked about just like put yourself in rooms that you don't belong in. And I think that that is what... is more interesting to me than being ambitious. I think if I am ambitious and maybe like, I'm sure I've done a lot of things that like could be perceived as ambitious. I don't think at all that I'm ambitious, but I think the way that I address it and maybe for people that are stressed about like being ambitious is I put myself in situations where I don't know what's going to happen and then do my best to make the best of that situation.
00:45:33
Speaker
And sometimes the best of that situation is that like, Literally, it just ends and it's over and that's it. And I'm like, that's the best that situation could have gone. ah But I try to allow myself to get into situations.
00:45:45
Speaker
And when I see a ladder, I climb it that don't pass up any doors. Put yourself in a room that someone's like, you're not supposed to be here. And you're like, OK, and then leave like that's fine.
00:45:57
Speaker
But sometimes they're like, oh, my gosh, you should be like the guy who runs this room. And then I'm like, all right. And then you become the guy that runs the room So put yourself in rooms that you don't belong in and see what happens. And that makes it, if you don't want to be ambitious, I don't see myself ambitious and being ambitious is like stressful for me.
00:46:15
Speaker
And so, because if I am ambitious, then I might fail. And so making it so that like, whatever happens happens and I'm just putting myself in situations that I try to do the best in those situations, that makes it less scary because even if I fail, then that's the best that that situation could have been. Then the situation is what it could have been. So it makes it less stressful.
00:46:34
Speaker
Is there anything that you can tell to these new creatives to help them embrace that uncertainty that you're talking about. Moving into the job market and moving out of school. Yes. Like everything's going to suck for a little while and that's fine. And that's just how it is. I don't know. I think there's so many people that are like, you can do this you can do that and it'll be successful and you'll have your best first year ever. But like, it could suck. it that's That's fine. Like, however is,
00:46:58
Speaker
is is how it's going to be. Like there's nothing you can do with that. And that way you're not disappointed. That way you're not overly excited. You're just there. You're just there. So that's my advice is like, as you're going in into whatever's next, it could suck.
00:47:13
Speaker
It could be amazing. It could be somewhere in the middle. Just let it happen. And just know that you are taking steps to make yourself proud of yourself, right?
00:47:24
Speaker
That if you're looking back even a week or a month, Are you looking back and saying, oh yeah, I'm like excited about what I did. No one else is like everyone else hated all the ideas I had to pitch, but I'm, I'm stoked on them.
00:47:35
Speaker
That's great. Eventually you will find someone else who is also stoked on them. It might take a while. It might not work out. It might be someone who doesn't have any money and can't hire you. Uh, but yeah, You can pursue that.
00:47:47
Speaker
And then once you have that context, be agile to move into where you need to. Just let whatever it is be whatever it is and put in the effort to make yourself proud of yourself and the journey that you're on.
00:47:59
Speaker
I always say that if you are disappointed or not hitting a goal you have for yourself, you either need to do two things and both are equally okay. Not one is not worse than the other.
00:48:10
Speaker
you You need to increase your effort or augment your goal and augmenting your goal is not a bad thing, right? If you're like, okay, I want to do this huge thing and this amazing project and what I have just isn't hitting that.
00:48:24
Speaker
then maybe you need to pull back. Maybe your goal is a little too aspirational. You don't have time to do it. You don't have the resources to do it. You you can't make that happen. Augment your goal and be like, cool, I just need this project to be good enough and I'll move on to something else that I can do.
00:48:36
Speaker
Or, You can increase your effort, right? And if you're not feeling confident and you're not feeling that your work is the best, make better work. You can do that. You are fully capable of increasing that effort to make that work better.
Sustaining Creative Satisfaction and Community
00:48:52
Speaker
And even if you feel like it's not good enough, keep going until you feel that it is good enough, right? Or... you can say, you know what? It's good enough. I need to move on to something else because I'm just banging my head against a wall that's not going to move.
00:49:05
Speaker
This is good enough. I'm going to augment my goal back a little bit and move on to the next thing. ah So it's usually one of those two things. You can increase your effort or you can augment your goal. Andrew, did you ever expect when you met me during our portfolio review in 2023 that I'd be doing a podcast two years later? yes What are you talking about? Yes. Okay. was like, I literally, i think I hired you like on the spot to come to Adobe Live. You did. And i you're i think you're the first person that I was like, I need you right now.
00:49:33
Speaker
ah Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent. Because you had the confidence, you had the story, you had the perspective, you had all the things that like I've talked about during the podcast. And I was like, oh,
00:49:44
Speaker
Like ah you're the kind of student that, and like so many people get mad at me about this. I used to tell students to drop out. Like if students had all the things that I was like, you got it. Like don't pay more for school, literally drop out and go do the thing. But you had all those things that I was like, I don't need anything else from you. I don't i don't need to shape anything. I don't like, I don't need anything.
00:50:03
Speaker
I just need to amplify your voice. And that's how you want to position yourself when you go to meet with a client or meet with a potential employer. is that you just need them to see themselves as a platform, as something to amplify your voice and what you're creating, and as a partner, and not as like someone to mentor you, right? Internships and apprenticeships are for that, to you know get built up.
00:50:28
Speaker
When you're going for a job, you just need to say, hey, you're a partner. We are equal partners now in the goal that we are creating for this company. Or great, I can communicate your message so well and have such good skill to communicate your message. I need you to just be a platform and application for what I'm going to create for you.
00:50:50
Speaker
And you had all those things. So that's my advice. Be like Matthew when you grow up.
00:50:57
Speaker
Andrew, where can all our wonderful listeners find you on the internet? Yes, follow me at hawk.co, H-O-C-H-D-O-T-C-O. I have another one that is just my name.com, andrewhawkrattle.com.
00:51:11
Speaker
Andrew, thank you so much for stopping by and having this chat with me. means the world to me as someone that you helped start your career back in 2023. And now I get to talk to you on this platform where hopefully other students can get the same support that I got and that we can put that back out into the world.
00:51:28
Speaker
So good vibes, everybody. bye good ah good vibes or good vibes. Goodbye and good vibes. Good, good
00:51:39
Speaker
The connection I made with Andrew that day sparked a friendship that has become more important to me than I would have ever imagined. When Andrew and I met, my personal projects illustrated to Andrew the creative I am.
00:51:51
Speaker
because I brought my ideas, dreams, and stories to life through my personal projects. I was passionate and cared deeply about the quality and narrative of my work. But what he didn't know was that I was desperate and depressed from all the rejections and people putting me down.
00:52:08
Speaker
Andrew took a chance on the designer not just looking for an opportunity, but a change he needed more than anything. Quite frankly, my story today would not be the story it is without him. It was this act of goodwill that convinced me that even though this industry is changing, there's no reason we should give up.
00:52:25
Speaker
And the community is more important now than ever. So, Andrew, thank you for believing in me. And thank you for coming on the podcast.
00:52:36
Speaker
Now that we have come to a close on the portfolio sessions, we're not quite done yet. i will be continuing to interview creative professionals and students to share their milestones and the advice it takes to get there.
00:52:50
Speaker
If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to subscribe. But most importantly, share this with someone who needs it. This isn't just a craft and this isn't just a job, but it's a community of creatives and designers trying to make a name for ourselves.
00:53:04
Speaker
We shouldn't let the competitive job market affect the longevity of this community. So share what you've learned here with a friend, a student, whoever. And to thank you for listening.