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Caring Across Colors: Bridges to Understanding with Kirsten Sippel-Klug and Kena Chambers
215 Plays10 months ago
In this insightful episode, our special guests, Kirsten Sippel-Klug and Kena Chambers, shed light on the process of building a stronger therapeutic relationship despite cultural differences. They discuss how they fostered a positive working relationship by navigating the nuances of their backgrounds. The conversation delves into instances of mismatch and repair, highlighting the challenges faced and the strategies employed to overcome them. Additionally, the guests share a pivotal moment in their collaboration that significantly contributed to the development of their relationship. For therapists and parents interested in creating their own positive therapeutic relationships, valuable advice is offered based on the guests' experiences. Tune in to gain valuable insights into cultivating meaningful connections in therapeutic settings.
Resources:
John, M. S. S., Thomas, K., & Noroña, C. R. (2013). Diversity-informed infant mental health tenets: Together in the struggle for social justice. Retrieved from https://perspectives.waimh.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2017/05/ZERO-TO-THREE-Corner.-Diversity-Informed-Infant-Mental-Health-Tenets-Together-in-the-Struggle-for-Social-Justice-.pdf
Vikitsreth, N. (2022). Queering “Ways of being:” Replacing politeness with honesty to create belonging. Zero to Three, 42(4).
Nat Vikitsreth, LCSW, DT, CEIM, Founder of Come Back to Care, Inc.
Listen to the Come Back to Care Podcast: https://www.comebacktocare.com/podcast
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome everyone to Meaningful Moments Connecting Infant Mental Health to Early Intervention. Today our topic is Caring Across Colors, Bridges to Understanding.
Collaboration Background
00:00:25
Speaker
And this podcast is a collaborative effort from the Virginia Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services. And that is through a contract with the Partnership for People with Disabilities at Virginia Commonwealth University.
Host Introductions
00:00:40
Speaker
My name is Lisa Terry. I am an Early Intervention Professional Development Consultant at VCU for the Partnership for People with Disabilities.
00:00:48
Speaker
I'm also an Infant Mental Health mentor in research and faculty, and I'm co-facilitator for DECs, which is the Division of Early Childhood's Infant Mental Health Community of Practice. I'm going to allow my co-host to introduce herself, Tracy. Hey, guys. So good to be with you again. Looking forward to the conversation. My name is Tracy Walters, and I am seated at the Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services, and I'm the state coordinator for Infant and Early Childhood Mental Health.
00:01:17
Speaker
So I oversee all initiatives that are related to infant and early childhood mental health in Virginia. And I am endorsed as an infant family specialist and am currently the president of the Virginia Infant Association of Infant Mental Health as well. So, so glad to be here with you guys today.
Guest Introductions
00:01:37
Speaker
Thanks, Tracy. Today, we are so excited to bring you a compelling episode featuring our two special guests, Kena and Kiersten. They are going to share valuable insights on how they really cultivated the stronger therapeutic relationship together, and that is by acknowledging and understanding the nuances of their respective races and backgrounds. So I'm gonna go ahead and ask you both, if you don't mind, to introduce yourselves.
00:02:05
Speaker
My name is Kena Chambers. I'm an African-American mother. Ironically, I'm from a small little town in Alabama, but I currently live in Germany. Recently, I completed the infant early childhood mental health certificate at Georgetown. And I have a bachelor's in psychology. And most recently, I also presented at the Wayne Conference, 2023.
00:02:31
Speaker
And I'm Kirsten Sippel-Klug. I'm a white early intervention physical therapist, and I've been working with families for over 30 years. I also have a certificate in infant and early childhood mental health. The first one was from University of Massachusetts program, which was great for laying the foundation.
00:02:51
Speaker
And then I became very, very even more passionate about racial equity. So I did the Georgetown program, which focuses on racial equity in infant and early childhood mental health. I have one disclaimer, which is that all the ideas that I'm expressing today are my own ideas and not of my employer.
00:03:09
Speaker
Thank you, Kirsten. I think that's really important to say, too. And really, I just appreciate you both really being here, too, because, you know, Kena, you are coming from that perspective of the parent when Kirsten was providing those early intervention services to you. And so we are just going to ask you some questions and get some thoughts that you both had to really get to that stronger therapeutic relationship that you've built together.
Cultural Differences in Practice
00:03:36
Speaker
So the first question we have is in light of the cultural differences, how did you manage to nurture a positive working relationship among yourselves?
00:03:47
Speaker
I think it's very important to mention that the key thing that set us apart initially was the openness that we had between the two of us. It was so intimidating on both ends to be like, well, how is she going to act and how are we going to really be able to connect? But I like to mention when I tell this story that if you focus on who the person is and how you are alike,
00:04:14
Speaker
rather than trying to compensate for the differences, it really makes a difference in kind of cultivating that beginning of that relationship to open doors for other opportunities. And I couldn't agree with Kena more. I think we were able to start our relationship off with a lot of caution and respect. I think that we were both always aware of the racial bias and the implicit bias that was like in the room with us throughout our whole journey.
00:04:42
Speaker
And we were also aware that it could derail our work pretty easily. And so we both treaded lightly and we tried our best to be respectful of each other. And I think going slowly allowed us to create some nice cushion for like when there would be ruptures that we would be able to repair more
Practitioner-Parent Dynamics
00:05:00
Speaker
easily.
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah, I really love how you guys have already framed for us how you are reflecting on the work with each other before you even delve into the actual work. And that is so important with any families that we're working with, right, is to really spend that time on reflecting what that process might look like, both as a practitioner and as a parent. So thank you for framing that up because I think that's at the forefront of everything that we do. What do you think about
00:05:30
Speaker
that Lisa. Yeah, I was just gonna say like, I just admire how you came into this, really acknowledging your differences, and being aware of that. Because I think sometimes like, that is what can really hold people back is that, you know, you are going in and just assuming like, we're all the same, we aren't the same.
00:05:48
Speaker
We've all had our own experiences. We have our own background. We've come from different places to get to where we are. And you have to go in with that awareness in mind when you are serving these families. You can't just say we're on the same page because it's not like that. Especially like I know for me, when I am working with families, there are so many different stress factors. And Tracy, we've talked about this before, the stress that families carry.
00:06:16
Speaker
And everyone experiences that differently. I can't say that I am going to be a lot more empathetic for one family versus another because that family canceled because you don't know what that stress is doing to that family. You don't know how they're feeling overwhelmed. A family could be feeling overwhelmed just because they have a lot of appointments, for example.
00:06:38
Speaker
where another family might be able to juggle that easily. And so I think just going in with that awareness in mind can really help us to be a lot more empathetic to our families, but also show it in that relationship too. So I like that you also talked about how you wanted to focus on how are you alike? What are your similarities too?
00:06:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I see you guys smiling at each other, which kind of leads me to this idea I was just thinking about. It's so important to be person-centered, right? We think about that idea a lot in terms of the children that we're serving, but also being very person-centered with the adults in the room, right? So I think you guys acknowledging, as Lisa was saying, the biases,
00:07:25
Speaker
that may already be there, the implicit bias, really gets that journey moving, I think, with some transparency. I mean, would you say that that was true in your situation? Yeah. Yes, I would agree. And also just being vulnerable as well, because you never really know, like, we can assume, we all could assume what the other person may be thinking. But if you just have just a little bit of vulnerability and be honest yourself,
00:07:52
Speaker
I feel like that creates a comfortable space for the other person to kind of give that energy back. Yeah, that leads me to the next question too. One of the things we were thinking about, and we talk about this, both of you guys are coming with an infant mental health lens. And, you know, one of the things we talk about a lot in infant mental health is this idea of rupture and repair, right?
Therapeutic Relationship Insights
00:08:12
Speaker
and how that plays into relationships so i'm just kind of wondering and like to hear your reflections on what did that mismatch and repair look like between the two of you throughout your journey of working together honestly in the beginning is kind of like
00:08:29
Speaker
anything that starts small and it grows bigger. So I feel like initially we were in this space to kind of test in the waters of what could we say and where could we go with this? And I feel that we never really had major ruptures and it's because of the fact that we were able to kind of get on the same page. Even when things did get a little derailed, we had such a comfortable relationship that we were able to mend it back. Not saying that we did not
00:08:58
Speaker
rupture. But it just wasn't as big, I think, as it could have been because we had that relationship. What do you think? I agree. I totally agree. And I think also, there's like so many like potholes in the road, you know, there's so many ways that it can go not the way you want it to. And so even though we were trying our best to be respectful and open, it's, you know, wasn't perfect.
00:09:23
Speaker
And I'll give you an example of where it kind of came up a couple of times is that like in any partnership, you're trying to make sure you understand what the other person's saying. So, you know, we use those active listening strategies like, oh, I'm going to paraphrase or I'm going to ask clarifying questions. Well, when I went to go ask clarifying questions, I like stepped in it and we had to repair around that.
00:09:52
Speaker
Yeah. And so, and it was all because I was asking a clarifying question and I included a stereotype in there and I knew instantly, oh boy, like I just like, I, this is me, I messed, you know, I messed up or I have to figure out how to salvage the situation. I just wanted to add as well that that was, I'm so glad that you, that you were able to bring that up because that's so important to think that,
00:10:19
Speaker
how much stereotypes kind of drive the work that we do. Because it could have been a situation in which I wasn't able to receive or I wasn't accepting of the misconception associated with the stereotype. And so I feel like that could have been the situation that we're both thinking of could have went really bad. But it didn't. And I think that was one of the most beautiful parts of our working relationship and kind of
00:10:47
Speaker
Building on this relationship that we have now is because we were able to work through something so difficult.
Building Trust
00:10:53
Speaker
The other thing that we have going for us is I think that in a lot of ways we are very similar. And in a lot of ways, we like to kind of deconstruct and figure out, and we had laid down like this nice foundation right up front that there was like some trust and it wasn't perfect trust. And when we kind of got derailed, we found ourselves going back to her daughter.
00:11:19
Speaker
Like we're like, okay, next week when I arrive, I think we're just gonna like work on whatever sort of pre-academic activity mom wants to work on because I need to have some time to rebuild trust with her. Well, and it sounds like one of the key things was the vulnerability, which you mentioned before, Keena, I think that you both brought it. And, you know, Kiersten, you really accepting, oh, I made a mistake.
00:11:45
Speaker
Because I think sometimes we can get into this where we don't want to accept our faults. We don't want to accept our weaknesses. And you have to be willing to do that in order to move forward and to grow with that partnership. One of the things I was thinking about too, because we were talking about some of those like visual differences, right? You obviously know when somebody is coming into your house, Kena, that they have a different culture. They have a different ethnic background.
00:12:15
Speaker
some of like the initial thoughts that you might've had during that process. So I think more of my initial thoughts were concerned to what was going to be thought about me. Like how was I going to be perceived? Like I felt as if I had to kind of over prepare, even though I've done home visiting myself, I still feel that I had to put my foot forward because I was scared of being judged.
00:12:41
Speaker
So that was one of the biggest things for me. And then honestly, I was really open to receive the help because I didn't know what to do myself. So I knew that I had to have a little bit of trust in Kirsten in order for it to work. The other thing, like as the provider, what was going through my mind is like, wow, there is this historical context of specifically anti-Black bias.
00:13:10
Speaker
And how is this mom feeling about me walking into her home given the history of, given the history of like, you know, people doing home visits and people having had bad experiences with white people coming into their homes to do a home visit. And it was really hard. It was, you know, I didn't know, I wanted to address it, but I was like, no, it's not appropriate right now. Yeah.
00:13:35
Speaker
And then I have the privilege of Kena and I having time to kind of deconstruct how it went and whether or not it like what would have like I was able to say to Kena, well, what do you think would have happened if I said
00:13:51
Speaker
X, Y, and Z. And she was like, it took me a long, we had to kind of go through that for a long time, because I kind of didn't get it. She's like, no, no, no, you can't just like, there's no one right thing to say. And there's no one wrong thing to say, you have to be in the moment with that person.
00:14:07
Speaker
I think what you guys are saying about the rupture there, crisis sometimes build relationships. Kirsten, I love the way you said you were stepping into it. You felt like you had stepped into it because sometimes I think
00:14:22
Speaker
stepping into it then allows us that opportunity to say, that didn't go well. So let's start over, you know, because it's out there. And so I think it does give you the leverage to be human with another human being and to express that vulnerability. And that also shows that you wanted to get it right. You know, that was an opportunity to show
00:14:45
Speaker
you really wanted to get it right. And so I think that's really important for us all to remember, because I think when we just avoid these conversations and topics, it really gets in the way of the relationship and the work that can be done for the child and the family. So I really appreciate that, you know, that idea of stepping into it.
00:15:10
Speaker
So Kirsten, I have another question that I wanted to ask you because it sounds like with this relationship, like you've kind of learned a lot through Kena too because she's being vulnerable. So I'm wondering like, did you feel prior to this therapeutic relationship that there were still learning instances or did you feel like you've grown from this relationship and now like moving forward, you're taking what you've learned here
00:15:38
Speaker
and utilizing those strategies? I think the most important thing I learned from this is that you absolutely can't put anybody in a box and think that what sort of one statement that worked well in establishing a relationship with Kena is going to work well for anybody else. And so really it's all about authenticity and really being present and
00:16:05
Speaker
just being authentic. And we have her daughter in common. We both really wanted the best for her daughter. So it's like there is instantly that in common. And I love that you've kind of brought that up. And you've said that a couple of times. When you were
00:16:23
Speaker
you know, thinking about things and problem solving together, was that something that kind of you said verbally, like to acknowledge together? Actually, we developed kind of like a coined the term to kind of describe that. Going back to my daughter, it felt it actually just felt very natural, because when you stripped it down to the responsibility of the meeting, it was for my daughter. So it was easy to kind of
00:16:50
Speaker
revert back like, okay, maybe it's getting a little hotter. Maybe we're not on the same page. So let's just go back and focus on this. And then we can build back up. So it's kind of like a build up and then go back to zero and then build up.
00:17:06
Speaker
One of the things that we would love for you to share is an example of a pivotal moment during your collaboration that you felt that really significantly contributed to the development of your relationship. So actually what was really fun is that when Kena and I were preparing for this, we were talking about like, what are you thinking of? And then I said to her, which one are you thinking of? And she's like, which one are you thinking of? And we both thought of exactly the same one.
00:17:33
Speaker
So I guess it really was a pivotal moment. And the moment was we'd
Shared Experiences in Practice
00:17:40
Speaker
been working very hard on kind of like pre-academic things because that was really what Kina wanted to be focusing on. And it was just sort of like, it was a hard day for her daughter. And so somehow, I don't remember exactly the sequence, but we ended up in the kitchen.
00:18:01
Speaker
And I was on the floor with her daughter while she was fixing something for her daughter. And I remember then, you know, of course her daughter wanted to go to her mom, not to me, to be comforted. And I watched Kena comfort her daughter. And my jaw dropped to the ground because I said to Kena,
00:18:22
Speaker
What you're doing right now is textbook perfect co-regulating with your child. And so we talked a little bit about that. And so from, you know, it just, it transformed, it gave me a sense of confidence that Kena has this. And that same phrase came up for me when we were working on a little bit of sleep.
00:18:43
Speaker
at nap time and I was feeling myself, my anxiety going up kind of like, oh, am I going to be able to help her? And then literally I'm standing at the top of the stairs and I said to myself, Kena's got this. You don't need to be anxious. You're just here along for, you know, to just be here to help her problem solve. But she has this. She intuitively knows exactly the mom that she needs to be for her daughter.
00:19:08
Speaker
And then what's interesting is Keena had a different, like a different appreciation for like, from her perspective as a mom for that moment. Yeah, I think it's very important to mention that
00:19:20
Speaker
I didn't do the early infant mental health stuff until after. This was just kind of like our natural course of things. And I think that is what made it more beautiful in a sense. Because typically, like I said, I felt that I had to, it just, everything had to go perfect. I had to have everything together. That's how I felt. In this moment, I could not control that. And I think that's what made it so, just such a pivotal moment is because my daughter was melting down.
00:19:50
Speaker
it was nothing that I could do. I couldn't fix it. I couldn't change it. And so Kirsten had never really saw that before. She never really saw how that process went. So I think that's that's kind of what really made it a very beautiful moment for for us. I absolutely love that story because I think
00:20:11
Speaker
That probably happens a lot, right? I mean, Kena, you said in the very beginning, like some of your first apprehensions was just, what are they going to think of me? Right. And when you think of those meltdowns that children have, I almost see it every single time I'm in the home and the child has a meltdown. Like I feel the anxiety of that parent rise because I think internally they're feeling like, Oh no, like is it me? Am I doing enough?
00:20:41
Speaker
Are they going to think that I'm not a great parent because my child is having a tantrum? And what you did, Kirsten, was you were like, no, you validated that moment. And you said, you are co-regulating with her. This is an example of something that you should be doing with your child.
00:20:59
Speaker
And I feel confident in that. So she's giving you praise and she's building your confidence up in those moments. But she's also normalizing that this is typical development for children. All children under three are going to react based off of their emotions, right? There's not that logic involved. Tantrums are very common. And so that's something that we expect. So I love how you really brought up that co-regulation piece to Kirsten.
00:21:24
Speaker
Tracy, did you want to add something? Yeah. Listening to this story, it really strikes me, one, that
Supporting Families
00:21:32
Speaker
you guys had the same story. That's really telling about your relationship, that that was your pivotal moment. And then I think two other things really come to mind in listening to that.
00:21:45
Speaker
One, like when we reflect on both early intervention and infant mental health, this concept of walking alongside the folks that we're working with, right? So by being in those moments that were really tough for Kena and her daughter really allowed you to walk alongside her in what was happening for the family.
00:22:11
Speaker
And I find in my experience that when that occurs, it takes some of the stress out of that moment like Lisa was just referring to because we always feel like maybe we're doing something wrong, right? Parenting is the hardest job in the world. This idea of therapeutic being, how can we be therapeutic in just the way that we're showing up for families? And I think just really that
00:22:41
Speaker
concept you demonstrated so beautifully for, you know, the family. And so I think it's just really important to highlight that, that therapeutic way of being is really important. We can demonstrate that without being therapeutic necessarily in practice, but just how we approach.
00:23:01
Speaker
our families and children. So beautifully done. It's a wonderful story. It is, it means a lot. Even just retelling it, it just like warms my heart. And yeah, it was very, it was like special.
00:23:16
Speaker
I was just thinking that kind of leads beautifully into another question that we had for you guys, thinking about how that all unfolded in your story. So if you were thinking about other therapists who may be listening or parents who are listening to the show and they're really aspiring to build positive therapeutic relationships,
00:23:41
Speaker
What advice would you offer based on this experience that you guys have had together? I think two very important things that I would like to mention. One for parents and then kind of one for the therapist. For parents I think it's very important, well for both honestly, it's very important to practice impulse control.
00:24:03
Speaker
So again, I mentioned it was so, well not so many, but there were a few times that I could have reacted defensively or I could have just reacted completely different than what Kirsten was expecting. And that could have kind of derailed us. And had we got derailed, could we have gotten that back? And so I think it's being able to kind of push those impulses down and allowing those moments to fully blossom
00:24:31
Speaker
taking some time to digest them and then putting them back out there. It's very important for both the therapist and the parent, because again, it gives you the extra time to kind of process what you're going through. Another thing that I feel is very important that I would like for therapists to consider, because being that again, I've done home visiting myself, I think it's very important to go into a home with an open heart and a real willingness to help.
00:25:00
Speaker
If that is something that you are unable to do for whatever reason due to bias or whatever the case may be, I think it's very important to reconsider where you're working. Even if that means moving to a different community or just changing the types of people, it doesn't matter. I think that if you are going to do this type of work, it just takes a willingness to be able to sit with that parent or walk alongside that parent, as Tracy mentioned. It's very important to do that because while
00:25:30
Speaker
We, as therapists, see multiple families throughout the month that family only see us, one person. And so it's us creating that early intervention experience for them that is really important. I love that, Kena. I think that was a really great strategy because I think what can happen sometimes for us as early interventionists, we can come in with this idea that we have more
00:25:59
Speaker
control or expertise over these situations. And it sounds like what Kirsten was doing the whole time with you is she was giving a level of understanding. I think that all the time about those families, right, that we are like, oh, we have to get them to buy in to early intervention services. Like this one family that I have right now, the father,
00:26:21
Speaker
he thinks that his child's gonna be fine in a few years, like, and he's just developing on his own track. And so you can't go in with the idea that you are going to educate them, give them all this information so they buy into
00:26:34
Speaker
our services and what it does, you have to go in with this idea to understand, understand where they're coming from, understand why they think that and what is it that they need from us. Because that particular family, like we've had those conversations, but my power shift was not higher than them at any given moment or time. And so we were able to build this relationship where he's asking me questions now.
00:27:01
Speaker
and coming to me for feedback. What are some strategies that I can use to help engage him in these activities? Like this is what I want to see him do. But that's such a huge reflection, Kena. And I think I just appreciate you saying that because it really does haul out that shift of control and power that I think sometimes coming from our field that we see that's really visibly there. So thank you for that. Tracy, did you want to add something?
00:27:31
Speaker
Yeah, it kind of reminds me this point of the conversation where we are right now is that self-check that we need to do before we go into each home is so critical. Really thinking about how are we showing up for this family when we walk through the door.
00:27:51
Speaker
And you know, guys, it takes a lot of mental preparation and a lot of emotional preparation for that. And it has to be consistently done. And I think both on the parent side and the practitioner side, for that matter. And then the other thing that you guys really touched on is this idea, Lisa, that you were bringing to the table about
00:28:14
Speaker
information and sharing information with parents. I think as practitioners, it is so important for us to remember, we may be the expert in the field, but the parent is the expert on their child and on that relationship with their child. And so, yes, there may be growth that will occur over time.
00:28:35
Speaker
But we really need to meet those families where they are and their understanding of their child and what's happening for their child and their family. Because again, leaning into that infant mental health piece, you know, it's the child in the context of the family when we're doing this work. And so all of those things just really struck me as you guys were talking about it.
00:28:58
Speaker
Right. Thanks, Tracy. Kirsten, did you want to add to that too with the strategies?
Reflection on Bias
00:29:05
Speaker
Yes, yes. So I thought, you know, I thought about this. And basically, what I what I realized a couple of months in is that I, in order for me to be effective and authentic with her, I had to get real and honest about my own implicit bias.
00:29:24
Speaker
And it's not a pretty process. It feels awful. And what I did, what it looked like for me, what I kind of created together with a woman named Nat Vikasayath. So she and I did reflective supervision and it was specifically around me exploring my own implicit bias. Like I said, it was hard, but I felt like I needed to do it. I needed to have a safe place to go
00:29:54
Speaker
to talk about it so I could take responsibility and begin to try as best I can, you know, within the context of this country and the history of racism, I'm trying the best I can to be the best provider for every single family that I work with.
00:30:12
Speaker
And the other idea that was really important to me was the idea that I had to also recognize and be responsible for the fact that I am used to, as a white woman, I am used to being sort of the center of the conversation or guiding or being asked for my expertise when I am not the expert at all.
00:30:35
Speaker
on what a little girl who's growing up in America and is black. There is no way that I can know what that little girl is gonna need in her life. Her mom knows and her dad knows, and I can certainly answer questions for them, but it is not my place to tell somebody who's from a different culture what they should be doing with their child. And I feel really strongly about that. Yeah, and I feel like that also comes from, I kind of tell myself like,
00:31:06
Speaker
We all have an inherent knowledge in ourselves. It's sort of like deep. It's over generations of how to raise our children. And it's going to look different from culture to culture. And there's reasons for it. And we might not even know what those reasons are anymore, but it's important for us as the non-experts to kind of be able to recognize that. Well, and I think when you think about it,
00:31:34
Speaker
There are so many different attributes that parents are going to want for their children. And that can completely be based off of their race and their ethnic background and where they've come from and what they've seen and the struggles that they've faced. Whether you want your daughter to be resilient, that could be something that's really important to you.
00:31:55
Speaker
For me, it might be something where I want my child to be independent or intelligent. And so everybody carries these own attributes that they want their children to have, but I think it's worth always exploring it and then gaining that understanding of why. Why is this important to you? What is it that is helpful for me to know?
00:32:18
Speaker
in order to help your child, right? Because you always bring it back to that child like you both have done so beautifully that whole time in your journey, which is just remarkable. And what I have heard from parents is that they can't even begin to give you an honest answer if you haven't established some level of trust. And sometimes that trust will take a long time. Yes, yes.
00:32:43
Speaker
I think sometimes we go in with, oh, I can build a rapport with just anybody. That is never, not the case. That's not always going to happen. I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea, right? And sometimes their trust, there could be a lot of reasons why they have barriers and why they're fearful of opening up and we have, it just takes time and that's okay too. Did you want to add something,
Patience in Trust Building
00:33:08
Speaker
Keena? Yeah, I love how you,
00:33:11
Speaker
You brought up the concept of time because that's kind of how I explained it to Kirsten as well. Because she initially, she had this question of like, how, how can I let the families know that I'm safe? And I explained to her, you can't. That's not something that you can really convey or that's not something that you can really convince someone. It's a feeling.
00:33:33
Speaker
and feelings take time. So I just wanted to kind of comment on that as well and say that I wholeheartedly agree that it definitely does take time and that time could look different between each individual, each individual family. Thanks, Keena.
00:33:52
Speaker
a wonderful remark, and I appreciate that too. And I like how you said it's a feeling that they have, and that can take time and that's individualized on every single family. This brings to mind, you know, Roosevelt's quote about people don't know, they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And it's very clear, Kirsten, that you set that tone throughout your work and your relationship, both of you did.
00:34:21
Speaker
And I think that that along with this piece of I think you referred to it earlier, you know, what you guys have worked on together is still going to be something completely different with the next family, the relationship building process,
00:34:38
Speaker
will be a different journey. And I think that we can have these beautiful embedded practices that are key, that are cornerstones to our work, like recognizing our biases, having these conversations.
00:34:54
Speaker
being authentic with one another and taking the time to build that trust. But there is no necessarily a formula that we can just apply to the next family, right? It's a very individualized process. And if it wasn't, it wouldn't be authentic. And so I think you guys have beautifully displayed that today. I just want to kind of touch on again
00:35:22
Speaker
what Tracy just said, in no way are we saying that the things that we were able to do to create this relationship is kind of like a guide, but it's more so of just an example. Honestly, if you can go to a family and be willing to learn, open, authentic, and ready to really learn from the parent, I think that that is the foundation that you need to kind of move forward.
00:35:49
Speaker
If you are just willing to go in with that open heart and listen, it will make a world of difference no matter what your journey looks like. Thanks Kena. Listening is such a huge component of it too. I think sometimes we can go in with this attitude of like do, do, do, but we really need to make sure that we are pausing.
00:36:10
Speaker
Because when we pause, Kirsten, what you're talking about, the implicit biases, we can catch those, right? When we pause, we have a moment to think about whatever implicit biases, how are we feeling as this family is telling and sharing their story, whatever thoughts.
00:36:26
Speaker
And we can really think about our response before we make it, right? Because we have to acknowledge our biases because we all have them. No matter who you are, you have a bias about something and we have to acknowledge that and we have to make sure that we are responding in a way that is respectful to that relationship and that person. I just want to say, I'm so appreciative that you have had this conversation with us because it's something that we both feel really passionately about and it feels good to be able to
00:36:56
Speaker
talk about it and get the word out. And again, we don't have an answer, but we took some risks and they really paid off. I just wanted to add just the appreciation we have for you guys to come on and talk about your relationship because I think that is going to serve as a model. I think this conversation just offers
00:37:18
Speaker
encouragement and some guidance about what these relationships can look like,
Final Thoughts on Relationships
00:37:23
Speaker
right? And things to be thinking about when we go into them. So just very grateful that you guys were willing to talk about the hard work that's gone into your relationship. Thank you both. You know, this episode has really provided a profound exploration of how individuals can just navigate and strengthen therapeutic relationships in the face of those cultural differences.
00:37:47
Speaker
And your experiences really both just offered a valuable roadmap for fostering that positivity and working relationships, addressing those mismatches and how to repair and kind of ruptures and repairs that may
00:38:03
Speaker
occur and then identifying those pivotal moments that really contribute to your relationship development, even the feelings that you both exhibited as you were sharing and reliving that experience too. It was very compelling.
00:38:19
Speaker
this shared advice really just serves as a practical guide for therapists and I appreciate you even saying this isn't something you do for everyone like what there's not one strategy that fits all right and so really it's just this ongoing process of growth that we internally have to continue to have and to be authentic in those moments and be open to
00:38:43
Speaker
those relationships and understanding those family dynamics. So we appreciate you so much. So that is it for today's episode of Meaningful Moments. Again, huge, huge thank you to Kirsten and Kena for just joining us today, for being vulnerable, being open and being honest with us too.
00:39:03
Speaker
Make sure that you subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or Spotify. For more information, you can visit www.veipd.org for resources, tools, and archived webinars. You can also visit VAME, V-A-I-M-H, for additional resources. Thank you all so much.