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Doretha Allen - President of the Texas National Board Coalition for Teaching
49 Plays1 year ago
Doretha Allen, the President of the Texas National Board Coalition for Teaching joins the podcast to discuss her career to this point, including starting her career as a Civil Rights investigator. She also discusses her National Board journey and how not achieving the first time helped her on her journey
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Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to National Board Conversations. We have our second repeat guest on the show. She's down in Dallas, Texas leading the Texas National Board Coalition for Teaching, helping the state get up to speed with House Bill 3, which provides monetary support to teachers who have achieved National Board certification.
00:00:16
Speaker
Deretha Allen is a National Board Certified Teacher and President of the Texas National Board Coalition for Teaching. I talked to Deretha a little bit about her career before teaching. Ask how it helped her on her journey to where she is today. It was a great conversation. Stay tuned for some great restaurant recommendations if you're ever in the Dallas area. I'm gonna hold you up much longer. Here's my conversation with Deretha. Hey Deretha, thanks for taking the time to join me. How you doing today? I am good Eddie. Thank you so much for having me.
00:00:46
Speaker
Oh yeah, so new host, but you're a return guest. So it's exciting to have you back. Can you give us, well, can you give me a brief intro of yourself and we'll ask three questions for, to get into your personal side. All right. Well, I am Dr. Duretha Allen. I am a nationally board certified teacher in literacy. I am born and raised in Dallas, Texas.
00:01:10
Speaker
raised in Dallas ISD, went away to college and grad school, came right back to my neighborhood and started teaching for many, many years, walked in with a little street credit because I was from a neighborhood and I've kind of advanced my career in Dallas to where I am now. So it's been 22 years on the professional side here in Dallas ISD. Man, you had that pull home.
00:01:38
Speaker
to pull you back straight to Dallas. Yeah, it was this guy I was kind of seeing in college and then I went away and you go out in the world, but then you come home just to make sure no stone is unturned and 20 years later, 20 years later. All right, so what are your three favorite foods?
00:02:01
Speaker
All right, so this was a hard one. Well, I am a Texas girl. And so I tried to give you multiple, right? Because it's hard to pick one favorite. So I tried to give you three. I was like, listen, I can give you three. All right, true Texas girl, smoked meat. OK. I am a barbecue fan, a barbecue fan. And if you 20 years ago or 30 years ago would have asked me my favorite, I would say, oh, you need to come to my house because my dad and we have a smoker in the backyard and he smokes it. Listen.
00:02:29
Speaker
He's gone on to glory, but I still people still tell people, um, maybe just let me know when you come in because my husband can put something on the grill. We believe in smoke, smoke meats. So smoke me, um, in particular, uh, sausage. So this is shout out to smokey did marks. If you haven't had one.
00:02:49
Speaker
We need to get you one when you are this way. And also True Texan, I love Tex-Mex. So chicken enchiladas with verde sauce. I can eat it again. And I think every Mexican restaurant I've gone to, I've had it. I've had it. Last, chard-grilled oysters. Chard-grilled oysters are one of mine.
00:03:14
Speaker
Whenever I'm in New Orleans, I know where I'm going to get them. Oh man, New Orleans is a good time. I'll be down there not too long from now.
Community Impact and Civil Rights
00:03:24
Speaker
So what are the last three songs on your Spotify playlist? Okay. So this one is, I know people are going to laugh. Hopefully they are laughing with me, not at me. So I don't even have Spotify.
00:03:38
Speaker
But I do listen to Pandora when I'm at work. Okay, at least you listen to music. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes I'm listening to NPR, but I do try to break out and listen to music. And so the last three songs were Video by Indi Irene, Four Leaf Clover by Dallas Homegrown Erika Badu, and Can You Believe by Robin Fitt. Okay, okay.
00:04:03
Speaker
Nice, nice little vibe there. And I will say that Pandora has really introduced me to folks because I'm so square. I listen to talk radio in the car. And so people have gotten by me. So I've been introduced to people like Ella May through Pandora and Snow, I think Allegra. Allegra, yeah, she's really good. I really like her. She gives me Sade vibes and I love that. So I was very excited to stumble upon those artists.
00:04:33
Speaker
All right, and the one sports team that has your heart. So great question. Generally, I don't even care about sports. However, this past year, South Oak Cliff High School, home of the Big Bad Golden Bears, right in Oak Cliff, Texas, an urban high school in Dallas, won a state championship. Oh man, shout out to them.
00:05:01
Speaker
I'm surprised you didn't hear about it in DC. It was a big, big deal. Usually, smaller districts like Allen, where everything is one high school and everything feeds into that high school is kind of a one band, one sound, strong program. This is the city. We're talking about the city of Dallas. Everyone was rooting for them. The day of the state championship, it was a white out.
00:05:30
Speaker
Their colors are gold and white. Everybody wore white. So big, bad, golden bears. Love it, love it, love it, love it. It's also a little Cinderella story. School is old and was neglected and for years it kind of fell into disrepair and the students walked out. Oh, man. So it caused this
00:05:52
Speaker
really big media blitz and they got the attention that they needed. So they're state champions in this new campus and it's just a good story and it just shows the power of youth who tap into their own advocacy to lead the charge for change. So I am a fan
00:06:13
Speaker
of the Big Bad Golden Bears in the South Oak Cliff High School. They got you, they got you. All right, so before you became a teacher, you were a civil rights investigator up in Minneapolis. How did that happen? Like, that's completely out of left field for her. Well, actually, when I saw that, I was like, how does he even know that? So here's the deal. Me coming to education wasn't
00:06:39
Speaker
The surprise, me being in civil rights was a surprise because I went to college to be a teacher. True to me being who I am, I don't meet strangers. So I was on a recruiting trip for the University of Minnesota. I was fortunate enough to garner a full academic scholarship to get my master's there. And the people who are ahead of us kind of take us out,
00:07:08
Speaker
And so we were meeting new friends, meeting new friends. And someone turned and said, Wiley College, what y'all know about Marshall, Texas? And I was like, what? I'm a thousand miles from home. And somebody knows about where I'm coming from. And it just so happened. I learned that night that Minneapolis, the community is very, very small. And that person was the,
00:07:36
Speaker
executive director of civil rights for the city of Minneapolis. And he said, well, are y'all here? Have you moved here? And I said, no, we'll be back in a couple of, we're on a recruiting trip. Well, we come back. I'm going to queen a follow-up. I don't meet strangers and I'm the queen of follow-ups. So I called, he took me and my roommate to lunch. He said, I need to stop by the office. Y'all run in with me. And he introduced us as the new interns. So
00:08:06
Speaker
He gave us, you know, internships, which really opened doors because I was very, you know, fresh off student teaching, fresh off my bachelor's and elementary ed degree. And so that is what I did when I was in graduate school. And because I finished in the winter quarter, he hired me full time until school started.
00:08:36
Speaker
And then I started teaching. So that was, it was quite the opportunity to learn and just be in a different industry. I learned that I'm very much tied to a school calendar because when June came around and I had to go to work every day, I just wanted to be outside because it was summer. And that's not how the real world operates or not that world.
00:09:07
Speaker
Yeah. So how did being in that line of profession inform your classroom staff? So first in that field, I did a lot of investigation and asking questions kind of like you, but I had to learn the questions to ask. There was always a push that the projects being done,
00:09:34
Speaker
with city money represented the city. So they were looking for so many women, so many minorities, so many, you know, all the different demographics. And so I never was who they expected when I showed up. I never was who that was young. I was African-American. I was female. I was confident. I looked them in the eye from such and such. And I need to see such and such, you know, and I would flip through my papers.
00:10:03
Speaker
And it was a lot of uh, uh, uh, and I just waited. I just smiled and waited. So it taught me that people don't always have the answers and just give them a little room to find the answers or help them find the answers. Well, let me help you, sir. I see that you have two Asian women painting today. Can I see them? Are they here today?
00:10:31
Speaker
And I would look for them. So I translate that to my teaching because sometimes people need a little lifeline. Kids and adults too. We need a lifeline. We need to be pointed in the right direction. Sometimes we need help making those connections. And teaching is about all of those things.
00:10:55
Speaker
So you talked about it off the top. You were already on track to be a teacher prior to taking on that role as a civil rights investigator. Was that always within you? Did you always want to be a teacher? Pretty much. Well, no, that's not true. Growing up, I wanted to be a television news anchor. Oh, man. It was a news anchor here.
00:11:25
Speaker
Her name was Iola Johnson, and I could easily see myself saying, good evening, Dallas. It is six o'clock, and this is your evening news. I am Doretha Piper, and this is our top story today. Very, you know, I loved, I'm not sure why I loved it. My parents are older, so we had one TV in the house. I'm a child of the 80s, and we had one TV. And my parents always watch the news.
00:11:55
Speaker
And I said, well, can we watch you as soon as the news go off? What's going off? Well, that was the five o'clock news. Now it's the six o'clock news. That was local. Now it's world. And then you get into homework and dinner and then it's late night news. So we watched the news a lot at my house. And I guess that was my role model, the news anchor.
00:12:15
Speaker
And now you perform in front of classrooms and in front of adult teaching. All the time, all the time, all the time. You know, something I forgot to say about my role in civil rights is that I learned quickly that there is a difference between policy and practice. Policy and practice. And when I was an investigator and I was going
00:12:45
Speaker
investigating that, we would always ask about the policy because people would come in and file complaints and they would talk about the actions that were happening and how they do it for everybody else and everybody else does this. But when they do it, it's a problem and they would say it's against the policy. And so I learned it was a huge difference between policy and practice and
00:13:06
Speaker
And what that taught me was to be true to my word as a teacher. If I said, this is what we were gonna do, then that's what we did. And I had to do it every single time. If I did it for 98 times, 99 times, but the 100th time I didn't do it, it negated everything. And you had to start over from scratch. So I probably got you in trouble a couple of times with some students. Well, they would just call me on it. Well, Ms. Piper, Ms. Allen, you said,
00:13:36
Speaker
I was like, you're right, my apologies. Give me a day. I didn't go to the store. Give me a day. I'm sorry, the dry is empty. I know I said it would never be empty. You caught me today, my apologies. And I just try to do right by kids. And if I tell them that's what it is, then I do everything in my power to make it to be what it is. Because I realized that so many times
00:14:06
Speaker
Teachers, we are the reliant one in their lives. We're the ones that they can count on to be consistent. When they're trying to find their way in the world, in this room, it's always the same. You know what to expect of me. I've shared what I expected. You know how to be successful and how to navigate our shared space together.
00:14:35
Speaker
That was a big lesson and I still, I use it with my own kids right now, the ones I'm raising. Yeah. So during your career as an educator, you became national board certified. What pushed you to pursue and what was your journey like?
Journey to National Board Certification
00:14:53
Speaker
Okay, so here we go. You know, I told you I was a NPR head driving to work one day and it was this,
00:15:03
Speaker
podcast about this gold standard and these teachers were talking about how they were transformed and it took hours and hours and hours and it was the standard and they were trying to show the standard. And I was like, who are these people? I said, I'm a gold star. I'm a gold star. I'm a gold star person. You're a competitive person, huh? You know, just a smidge, a smidge. And I said, who?
00:15:30
Speaker
What is this? So I got to work, you know, I'm looking it up. And I think everything happens for a reason, right? It's this series of events. I didn't even know about it. And then I heard about it now. Let me give you a little background. At that time, by then I had earned two master's degrees. So I do school well. I do school well. I was a teacher of the year at my campus. I was also the,
00:15:58
Speaker
English Language Arts Teacher of the Year at my campus, so I would get those accolades, you know, which is nice, nice, you know. But this gold standard, I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute, it's another, what, what, what is this, what is this? And so I did my research and just a couple of weeks after all of that, an email came across.
00:16:24
Speaker
my inbox and it says the district was starting its first cohort, apply here. If you're interested, apply here. And I was like, oh, I'm definitely interested. I was so interested. I talked my partner into it and the teacher across the hall. Oh man. Who's from North Carolina? Who was the only person who knew about it? Oh yeah. Cause they got, they got a big, there's like the largest in the mind of NBC T's in the country.
00:16:51
Speaker
Yep. So we, here we go. We lunched in and, and it was good to go through with a group. Um, because when you think you're crazy, then you go ask somebody else and you're like, are you, did you read that like 10 times? I don't get it. What is this? What is this? So we had, you know, a group with almost this double cohort of sorts, which, which helped us, um, which helped us in a way. Um, the journey was hard. I'm accustomed to being successful.
00:17:20
Speaker
And with National Board, I was not successful my first go round. I didn't like that. It's like, who are these people?
00:17:30
Speaker
They don't know about me. I said, I miss something, but that's okay. I won't miss it again. And so I jumped deeper into my standards, my directions. I went all in. I was like, oh, not only am I going to get it this time, I'm going to get the top that scored family of a four on all of these. I had a little bend to me, but- A little fire on these.
00:17:56
Speaker
It was back then. So I call that National Board 2.0. And what we're living in now is National Board 3.0. So when I came to the process, we did all four components in one year. Because that's the way it was. You did it all in one year. And so I'm really thankful that I missed it that first year, because that second year when I went back and leaned in,
00:18:26
Speaker
First, it wasn't all four. I redid one portfolio entry and I took two parts of the test over and I really, there were things I missed the first go around. It was just things I missed when you're going fast through a process.
00:18:53
Speaker
You have to pay attention to everything, but everything can't garner your attention because you just don't have the, I guess I didn't have the time or the bandwidth, whatever it was, I missed it. But that second go around, I really, I was forced to slow down even more and really say, oh, I see my kid is doing this. This is because of this.
00:19:20
Speaker
I need to do this. Or why is this kid doing this? What does this even mean? Let me go read and research and learn and then come back and teach. So it forced me to be better, to dig deeper into my teaching toolbox. And if I didn't have enough tools, I had to go learn some. And you got them.
00:19:42
Speaker
I got them. So when people don't make it, don't be discouraged. So friends, whoever's listening, if you didn't make it, score releases coming up. And if you don't have fireworks, be sad for a minute and then dig and jump neck deep into your standards and your portfolio directions again. So how did achieving impact your career? It really boasted
00:20:10
Speaker
my teacher leadership. So I was already a teacher leader on campus. We have something called Campus Instructional Leadership Team, CILT. I was already on that. I was already leading committees, but it opened my teacher leadership world from beyond my school, beyond my area, beyond my district to a national level. I can only compare it to all I could see was my district.
00:20:40
Speaker
But then with National Board, I was like, oh, it's the whole world of things. It wasn't, shortly after I applied to be on a standards committee and I got it. So I was traveling to DC and sitting at the table with people from all around the country doing great things in education. And you know, when you get to that table, the new big table where they feed you,
00:21:11
Speaker
and they get you coffee and tea and you know, teachers barely eat. I don't know if you know that. Teachers barely eat. I've been in enough schools. I'm looking around like, you know, how did I get here? How did I get here? You know, am I the right person? Did someone, um, was I the first one on the waiting list and somebody fell off and so I slid in that spot. You know, you have this imposter and yes, that imposter syndrome national board.
00:21:38
Speaker
over the years has taught me that when I'm at those tables, it's every experience that I've had as a classroom teacher is why I'm at the table. That is my voice. That's who I am. So I have to amplify it and own it. And so it was a shift for me. Cause I used to say, oh, I'm just a teacher. Now I say, hi, I'm Dr. Doreka Allen. I'm a national board certified teacher. Like what? Bring it. There you go.
00:22:09
Speaker
So you're no longer in the classroom now. Why'd you leave? So I was in the classroom for about 14 years. Seems like an eternity. Man. And one weekend, I got three calls from three different professional colleagues.
00:22:34
Speaker
saying, hey, it's this new role. Have you heard about it? I said, no, I haven't. You know, I put you down. They asked for people we should bring in. And I put you down. It's this, this, this. I said, I don't know. I'm good. I'm good. And then the next person called. Same thing. And then another person, I said, you know, three people have called me. I said, let me get online and check it out. And I did.
00:22:57
Speaker
And I got the job. It was right in my wheelhouse. Back then it was called an academic facilitator. I was a coach of reading coaches across a feeder pattern. So I worked across 15 campuses. I really love that work. I met the teachers, well, the coaches where they are. So if it was content, if it was how to coach, if it was,
00:23:22
Speaker
how to facilitate professional development, how to build it, build the relationships. Let's go in this room and watch. Utah kindergarten, but now you're the coach. Okay, let's teach you how third grade looks in Texas because you gotta have that credibility. So it was just a really good opportunity. So how did leaving the classroom shift your view of education now?
Leadership and Network Growth
00:23:50
Speaker
Wow, it was definitely a shift. I feel like although I had 14 years, I feel as if I only had two experiences because I had been at two campuses and the campus I left, that was the neighborhood I grew up in. So had I gone to that school, some of my colleagues would have been my teacher, just to show you how long they stick around.
00:24:17
Speaker
And we really ran a center of educational excellence, no excuses. We're gonna give kids every opportunity to be successful. And it was hard work, but that was the standard for me. And so when I left, I went into the world with this very kind of Pollyanna view of the world that everyone taught
00:24:47
Speaker
like we did and everyone worked like we did and everyone doesn't. And so that was, that was, it was definitely a shift for me because sometimes there isn't that expectation of all kids can. And I saw a lot of times where kids who didn't have
00:25:14
Speaker
their homework or kids who didn't have a pencil, that was deal-breaking behavior. And I disagree with that. And so I would have conversations about, you know, this child is here. Let's take care of everything else. And that's a shift for, I learned for some other people, but that was the,
00:25:42
Speaker
kind of teacher or the kind of teachers we were in a building and I left. So I really have to lean into those situations and say, hey, what's happening? How can I help? How can I help? What does he need? What does she need? Let me give it to you. Let me give it to you. Let me, you know. So I always work to be done on that front. No. So is that why you believe in the mission of the national board? Absolutely.
00:26:12
Speaker
Everyone needs an accomplished teacher in front of them. Someone who makes it about, what am I doing to teach this child in front of me? What do I know about this child? How am I going to use what I know to make this learning experience the best for this student? Yeah, I so believe, I try to talk everyone I know into being a national voice in my teaching. Literally, every single person I know,
00:26:41
Speaker
I've been after a couple of cousins in East Texas. I've been after my sister-in-law here in the day for years.
00:26:52
Speaker
I'm going to call their name in a second. Hey, listen, Texas got that incentive. They need to get on it. They do. And I'm trying to ask like, listen, listen, I have never earned one cent by being a national voice. Never. Not one. Not one. But friend, let me help you. Let me help you. I can help you. I'll mentor you. I'll spend my time with you. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:18
Speaker
And now you're president of the Texas NBCT network. How much has the network grown in the last few years with that new incentive, with that new national board policy down there? So let's talk about 2020 when I was on LinkedIn and saw Leslie Anaya, who was the founding president, post something about a new network. And I was like, who is this one? Wait a minute. Let me reach out to her.
00:27:49
Speaker
And that was the beginning. So I was able to join at the beginning and we were meeting during the pandemic via Zoom at 7 AM once a week trying to figure it all out. So we went from having, you know, the eight or nine of us to now we're over 125 members. That's huge.
00:28:13
Speaker
Across the state, it is super, super, super exciting. There is still work to be done, but I'm super excited. Right now in Texas, there are about a little over 1,000 MBCTs. A little over 1,000. But there are twice as many candidates.
00:28:36
Speaker
Oh, it's y'all getting there. Twice as many. And so I'm thinking of those Singletons in rural Texas that's going at this by themselves, trying to find them so that they can be a part of the network so we can just provide community for them around this work because it is hard and we don't want anyone to go out and do it by themselves.
00:29:05
Speaker
It can be done, but if it doesn't have to be such a trying and hard experience, we want to build community around it and support as many people as we can. So what are some goals for the network going forward?
00:29:21
Speaker
Oh, well, the president's challenge is to activate the membership. The board of directors, we do a lot of work. And I say, man, we're still working too hard.
00:29:37
Speaker
going into year three, because we're just going into our third year, if you could believe it, our third year. And so really tapping into the people who just certified or it's happening to the people who are out there, they are NBCT and they're the only one in their district. They may have moved in from another state. And now they're here really trying to activate the membership because we know that NBCTs are advocates.
00:30:05
Speaker
We know that NBCTs are active wherever they are. We know they have a voice. We know that they're teacher leaders, and we want to bring all of that talent to the table so that we can continue to spread awareness so that we can reach our mission, which is getting an NBCT in every district, every school, every classroom in Texas. It's a tall order that scares me.
00:30:33
Speaker
but I feel as if my goals don't scare me, they're too small. All right, little by little, they'll get done. That's right, that's right. So we're gonna get fun again. What are, who is your favorite fictional TV or movie teacher?
Personal Favorites and Recommendations
00:30:53
Speaker
Oh man, so right now, I am really loving,
00:31:00
Speaker
Ambit Elementary and all the teachers, but really, Miss Howard, Miss Howard makes me giggle. And I don't know if I'm giggling because I've aspired to be her, or if at times I have been her.
00:31:23
Speaker
The same with Ms. Teague. I laugh and shake my hand. I was like, yeah, that's what young teachers do. Yeah, I was that young teacher. Or I've seen people do it. You know, you see the entry point, so many entry points, but I love that show. Those teachers are hilarious. They keep showing up every, every day. And as a teacher, you know, sometimes I just keep showing up. You're going to learn, you're going to get better.
00:31:53
Speaker
You're gonna get better. Okay. Okay. I love that too. It's so funny. I'll be cranking up. So funny. Like just as a kid who went to public schools, I'm like, Oh man. Yeah. Okay. This is all hitting way too close to home, but it's funny. It is funny. All right. So what are three Dallas era restaurants folks need to try when visiting? Specifically me because I'm coming down there pretty soon. Okay. So, you know, I was talking about smoked meats.
00:32:23
Speaker
There is a restaurant called Smokey John's Barbecue. It is near the medical district to die for food, Smokey John's. They are also big vendors at the State Fair of Texas where you get lots of good smoked meats. But that's not all they do well. They do great mac and cheese. They do great- Listen, mac and cheese are important.
00:32:51
Speaker
It's so important, they do great yams. They do great sweet potato pie, so great, like if you want barbecue when you come to Dallas, Texas, please visit Smokey John's Barbecue. Good eats, good eats, good eats. Tex-Mex, Elle Phoenix is a local restaurant, family owned for
00:33:19
Speaker
over a hundred years. And I've been there without telling all my business. I've been here twice in the last seven days. Oh man. I'm not sure- Took my mom for her birthday. Took mother-in-law for her birthday. That's good, good eating. They make their chips, tortilla chips fresh in the house.
00:33:45
Speaker
so crispy, so light, so flaky. Everything's homemade. Everything's homemade. So it's good. It's good, it's good. It's good. Last thing is a little mom and pop shop over on Laura Greenville called Charlie's Creole Kitchen. And when New Orleans is too far away for me to get those good, aren't real oysters from Drago's.
00:34:13
Speaker
I go over to Charlie's and get them with the French bread and I... That sounds so good. Chase the... Yeah, I chase them and eat it. So good. It sounds so good.
Encouragement and Connection
00:34:36
Speaker
All right, so last thing, we have a feature on the podcast called a shoulder tap. It's when you give a teacher a tap on the shoulder, let them know they're ready to become national board certified. On here, you'll give them a quick shout out and we'll tag them on the promotional tweets for this episode. So with that context, who are you shoulder tapping? Okay, so I almost feel like I have my laundry list. So before I forget, let me tap little cousin Tammy.
00:35:05
Speaker
Sandler down in Palestine, Athens, ISD, friend, cubs, it's time. Come on. I'm here for you. Let me tell little sister-in-law Christie Allen over at Sooty Williams Tag Academy in Dallas ISD. Come on, little sis. I'm waiting on you. Then let me tag some of the folks that I've mentored along the years. First, all the teachers at Charles Rice Learning Center, where I spent all of my years teaching,
00:35:34
Speaker
Nyla Miller, Kentasha McCoy. Ladies, I am here for you. Come get this good learning. And all the teachers at Paul Lawrence Dunbar Learning Center, my friend Gloria Douglas, especially my former third and fifth grade student who is now teaching kindergarten at Dunbar, Ms. Jascira Combs.
00:36:02
Speaker
She's in her first full year of teaching. The rules have changed. I'm ready for you to get started. I will help you. All right, we're excited, we're excited. And where can the people find you on social media? So I am on Twitter at Everyday I Teach, all lowercase, and LinkedIn, Deritha Piper Allen. Deritha Piper Allen. All right, thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time.
00:36:31
Speaker
Thank you, Eddie, for having me. This has been so much fun. What a fun conversation we had. She's had an exciting career and is a fun character. I want to thank her again for taking the time to chat with me. And thank you for listening to National Board Conversations. Be sure to follow the National Board on social media for all news related to National Board. And we'll see you next time.