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Jaclyn Li - A Watch Collection We All Could Learn From
1.1k Plays1 year ago
As small as the watch world is, there’s a lot more collectors out there than you would think. But not all of them stand out or impress, subjective of your taste. And then there’s Jaclyn. Jaclyn is a collector who took the community for a loop when she popped up on the scene in 2020. Since then, she’s taken us along with her as she ebbs and flows through her collection. But as an Ivy League student, how does she find time to collect, co-host her watch podcast, The Waiting List, and make sure she’s doing it with purpose? Well, as a ceramics collector as well, she takes the same approach to watch collecting as the pottery making process. With Jaclyn, everything is done with intention, but for herself, nobody else, and that’s what makes her and her collection so unique. So without further adieu, my friend Jaclyn Li, for Collectors Gene Radio.
Jaclyn's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/a.dose.of.time/
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Transcript
The Intimacy of Unique Ownership
00:00:00
Speaker
When something in your collection, you bought it at a time, nobody really cared about it. Nobody knew what it was. So you kind of had this, you know, special thing. And it was kind of like a, if you know, you know type and you felt a sort of intimacy between that.
Introduction to Collector's Gene Radio
00:00:22
Speaker
What's going on, everybody? And welcome to Collector's Gene Radio. This is all about diving into the nuances of collecting and ultimately finding out whether or not our guests have what we like to call the collector's gene. If you have the time, please subscribe and leave a review. It truly helps. Thanks a bunch for listening. And please enjoy today's guest on Collector's Gene Radio.
Meet Jacqueline Lee
00:00:46
Speaker
As small as the watch world is, there's a lot more collectors out there than you would think.
00:00:52
Speaker
but not all of them necessarily stand out or impress you, subjective to your taste, of course. And then there's Jacqueline. Jacqueline is a collector who took the community for a loop when she popped up on the scene in 2020. And since then, she's taken us along with her as she ebbs and flows through her collection. But as an Ivy League student, how does she find time to collect and co-host her watch podcast, The Waiting List, and make sure she's doing it all with a purpose?
00:01:19
Speaker
Well, as a ceramics collector as well, she takes the same approach to watch collecting as the pottery making process itself. See, with Jacqueline, everything is done with intention, but for herself and nobody else. And that's what makes her and her collection so unique. So without further ado, my friend Jacqueline Lee for Collector's Dream Radio. Jacqueline, what a pleasure to have you on Collector's Dream Radio today.
Transitioning to Zencaster
00:01:45
Speaker
Thank you, Cam, for having me. This is my first time using Zencaster, so it's also a fresh experience for me. Welcome to The Good Life.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah. I'm so used to recording with Dan and Long Long over Zoom that this is a brand new experience. We love looking at each other and having a laugh, but there's something about not seeing each other and just hearing each other's voices that kind of relaxes you, puts you in the zone a little bit more.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I've had a lot of guests ask about recording video and all that stuff. And a lot of people aren't comfortable with it. So I didn't want to take that route, you know, with bringing guests on and whatnot. So.
Social Media and Watch Tastes
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah. Well, we certainly, when we reach out to guests, we certainly say, oh yeah, everything is a resume. And now in direct respect, maybe they weren't 100% all for it, but that's funny to think about now.
00:02:47
Speaker
So friends of mine always ask me who they should follow in the watch world in terms of social media and you're always one of my first wrecks and I usually just say she goes to Harvard and she has one of the most incredible taste in watches and that usually does the trick. That's very kind of you. And we chatted quite a bit over the years and it's been so interesting to watch your collection ebb and flow the way that it has.
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean it has changed a lot over the past three years or so basically over covid When we first connected. Yeah I I feel like I always know when you're gonna post something crazy because you'll take a little break from posting on instagram And then you just hit us with something that that makes me want to cry Is that a pattern i've never I never uh paid attention to it I think it's I think it's a pattern for sure
00:03:39
Speaker
Yeah, maybe, maybe.
Family Influence on Collecting
00:03:41
Speaker
It's just I try to post every week because for me, it's not just about, I mean, it is about watches, but my account is more, I see it more as a creative outlet in terms of photography. Absolutely. So when I'm trying to create photos, you know, a couple of things need to line up. First, you know, the watch,
00:04:06
Speaker
you know, if I have a new one or something interesting, I'd like to share. And then the second is also like the weather because I don't use artificial lighting. I think the best effect is achieved with natural sunlight. And during COVID, I was living in Canada. So in Vancouver, it's quite rainy most of the time. So it's hard to schedule posts when the weather doesn't, you know, line up.
00:04:35
Speaker
It's quite demanding. Yeah, exactly. But Boston's okay. Boston's so far has been okay. I haven't had time to shoot a lot over the past few months. Can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up? Your parents, did they collect anything? Setting the tone for everybody of where you are at today in terms of your collecting.
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
Family's Diverse Collecting Interests
00:04:59
Speaker
So I grew up in China, and then I moved to Canada in elementary school, right before junior high, actually. So I grew up in a family like we didn't, collecting wasn't like over arching like theme in our family. But
00:05:18
Speaker
My grandpa, my dad and I, we always just had an interest in older objects. Like my grandpa, he was a professor at a university and he loved collecting old calligraphies and also like coins. But what I found most interesting about his collection, I don't know if he would call it a collection, but, you know, the calligraphies
00:05:42
Speaker
Most of them are not in fancy frames or anything. They're actually rolled up. And the paper themselves are quite fragile. And so he would always know how to handle them whenever he showed them to me as a kid. And I would just be amazed by that because to me, I mean, they're extremely like, prone to destruction, right?
00:06:06
Speaker
So he had a very soft hand in that regard. My dad, he loved collecting old Zippo lighters and also like older Jeeps and motorcycles from World War II. He had a few of those
00:06:25
Speaker
side car motorcycles. As a kid, he would put me in the side car and drive me around.
Starting with Vintage Watches
00:06:37
Speaker
That's amazing. But in terms of watches, it was not...
00:06:42
Speaker
Nothing like oh, yeah, I had hand-me-downs for my grandparents or my my parents Nobody really took an interest in watches like I mean I grew up with people wearing watches around me But it was never a thing to pay attention to Yeah, and and you and I met
00:07:01
Speaker
Virtually, which sounds odd, but we met virtually via Instagram in 2020, I believe. But did watch collecting- And then Clubhouse, I thought. Oh yeah, maybe it was Clubhouse. Yeah. Very possible. Well, it was Instagram first, and then it was Clubhouse. I feel like we've chatted before. Yeah, we definitely have. But did watch collecting for you start at that very moment, or was there a period before that where you really started getting into it before it was publicized, if you will?
00:07:29
Speaker
So I started collecting. So I mean, it's still weird to say that term out loud because it wasn't like, you know, when I started, I didn't have any plan in thought that I was going to collect seriously. But, you know, it really became a rather serious thing that I was, you know, paying a lot of my time and attention to, I would say in summer of 2020. So around June. Do you remember the first watch you got?
00:07:59
Speaker
Oh yeah. The first watch that I got was a vintage Rolex. It was a 6234 pre Daytona. I guess we're recording. Yeah, I guess we're recording on a great time because of the watches and wonders, all the new releases in the Daytona.
00:08:15
Speaker
But yeah, that was my first like vintage watch I bought for myself. And it was probably the worst watch I bought because I, it was, I like, I was scammed, like the condition and everything about that watch was not great. So that was my first mistake. And I think I'm glad that I haven't made many mistakes afterwards. From your photos, it doesn't look like there's been any mistakes.
00:08:41
Speaker
Well, you never know. That's true. Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but vintage Cartier was a huge focus for you when you started collecting. Yes. And so is. That's like one of our mutual interests, right, vintage Cartier? No doubt.
00:09:02
Speaker
I started buying vintage Cartier in December 2019, so even before I considered myself being really serious towards watch collecting. And I don't know when you started collecting, but that was when I was first introduced to Cartier. And I was intrigued and I was drawn in because it was relatively affordable at the time. I remember
00:09:30
Speaker
you know, platinum tanks and Santos's. Well, the tank could be bought around $5,000 and the platinum Santos with the salmon dial that everybody is like going crazy for now could be bought under like nine or 10. So that was when, you know, yeah, that was when I started. And that was when I acquired some of those now really sought after references.
Cartier's Popularity Shift
00:09:58
Speaker
Then when things went crazy, which was in the beginning of 2021, I have to admit, I lost interest because it used to be this relatively hidden thing that we would share with a few people around in your circle. All of a sudden, everybody were looking for the same references like the Monopusher Tortue, I remember, people went crazy for.
00:10:28
Speaker
I don't know, like that itch, I kind of lost it. So I took a break from CAR-TA for about a year. So from like 2021 to 2022.
00:10:42
Speaker
actually like past 2022 because I really like regain that spark this past winter like this October November was when I started looking at them again and I just felt like head over heels once again for them but the feeling is different now. I agree. Before it was more about the chase
00:11:07
Speaker
and learning about these references. Now it's like, you know, I could be attracted to the most simple, easy to get reference that you don't have to hunt for, that not everybody loves. I could be attracted to that and it's fun again. So that's the place I'm at right now with Vintage Cartier.
Philosophy on Vintage vs. Modern
00:11:32
Speaker
I saw you join the Bain Wall Club, so welcome.
00:11:35
Speaker
Yes, I love it. That's like one of my favorites. It wears so well. It wears so well, but also, if I had been offered that watch in 2020,
00:11:52
Speaker
I don't think I would have looked at it a second time, as harsh as that sound, because the dial of that watch is not perfect. It's not pristine, whereas when I first started, everything I wanted had to be pristine. It had to be condition, condition, condition. And it was kind of like a bug that I had inside me.
00:12:12
Speaker
But something turned when I got back to vintage Cartier collecting, like, a few months ago. I don't care as much about the condition anymore. I care about the feeling that it brings. And for me, that being noir, you know, it's a London piece. All the London dials were painted by hand, as opposed to the New York or the Paris one. It's supposed to crack like an old painting. Right. And for me,
00:12:42
Speaker
I would never have looked at it two years ago, but now I love it. I love that watch so much. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, yeah. So that's the rabbit hole I'm down in right now. I wish you luck there. Thank you. Would you say vintage is still a primary focus for you regardless of the brand? Because we have seen you move into some modern stuff, but you do still have a vintage focus in some regard.
00:13:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think very much so that vintage is still a big part of what drives me to look for like new exciting things like references. So now if I had to limit myself and say it, I would be partially like vintage Cartier and Patek and then modern independent.
00:13:36
Speaker
That's how it would summarize the theme right now. But if I had to say, vintage would still very, very much be a bigger portion. I'd say maybe 70%.
00:13:48
Speaker
I'm always interested in learning how collectors' focuses shift. For me, I always keep a list, of course, of the things that I want. But I strictly go off of what speaks to me and rarely do I buy something that actually was on my list. And I'm curious if that ethos stands for you or if you strictly go off the list that you have.
00:14:14
Speaker
Oh, that's such an interesting question. Because I do have a list. We all do. I think we all do. And when something comes up,
00:14:25
Speaker
on the market that's on that list. I can't lie. I do gravitate towards, of course, trying to find out more about the watch. If everything checks out, I have to say, of course, I'm tempted to go for it if it's the right timing and everything is working out well.
00:14:47
Speaker
So actually, I have crossed a few off of my list. The most recent one I did cross off was a white gold 2526 from Patek. Yeah, that thing's insane.
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, I've had that watch on my list ever since I watched the Matt Jacobson talking watches. And that was, you know, that was that was in 2019. I was gonna say that must have been at the beginning. Yeah, very beginning if not earlier if and I just remember, without knowing much about the reference, I was drawn to how it looked.
00:15:29
Speaker
And after, you know, research, I knew that it was difficult and rare to find it in white because most of my pieces are indeed in white. It's just what I find more wearable. I did go and look for it, and some did pop up, but it was way out of my reach. And I think I got lucky with this one. I did pick up at an auction. Maybe people just, you know,
00:15:58
Speaker
weren't particularly interested in the reference that day and I think I got pretty lucky with it. As a student that arguably the most prestigious Ivy League school there is, how do you find time to collect?
Balancing Harvard and Collecting
00:16:15
Speaker
So when I did collect, it was during COVID. So good thing I wasn't in school, I took two years off. So I had time. But you see now, like I'm back in school and that's why it's been difficult for me to arrange things and
00:16:32
Speaker
take photos and whatnot. But I'm a senior now. I think at this point, you know, you've been in school for so long, you kind of have a sense of what you're doing. And I would not have tempted this if I were like a sophomore or even junior. So I think the timing worked out.
00:16:50
Speaker
But in terms of the environment at school, I have to say recently I was approached in DM by a fellow student and we met up for coffee and she was very interested in watches and I was telling her a couple spots to check out in Boston. And it's really nice and I learned through her that there's a watchmaker actually on campus and he made his own watch.
00:17:16
Speaker
So we're going to plan for a time to meet. I think he's also like a member of the Horological Society in New York. So, you know, before when I was collecting, it was just myself in Canada. But ever since coming back to the States last year, it's been great. I really, really, it's a totally different experience.
00:17:40
Speaker
I love when you post a photo on your story or in class in a Harvard lecture hall rocking like a black ceramic Royal Oak. Yeah. And I was going to ask you what the collector community is like at Harvard or if you're noticing other students wearing interesting watches.
00:18:02
Speaker
No, yeah, definitely. I have noticed some steel Rolex sport models, so like Datejust and Subs. I've noticed some vintage Universal Genèves. Interesting.
00:18:17
Speaker
And I really regret not reaching out to that person because I saw him across the hall at a coffee shop. And I saw it was a two-register chrono. And I really wanted to ask, but I just didn't. But anyways, I did see that on campus. But other than that, you don't really
00:18:40
Speaker
look at what people are wearing on their wrist. And for me, I don't wear a watch every day to class. Sometimes when I do wear one, it's usually very, most of my watches are pretty understated. So things that are not very loud, so like the black ceramic, nobody gives a second look to a black watch or a vintage Calatrava, something along that regard.
Patience and Intention in Collecting
00:19:10
Speaker
You said in an article on A Collected Man that your approach to watch collecting echoes the pottery-making process, chiefly requiring four qualities, patience, self-understanding, an eye for detail, and open-mindedness. Do all four of these have to hit in order for you to add something to your collection? Wow. I forgot I said that.
00:19:36
Speaker
Are you regretting it immediately? No, no, no, no. Please remind me. So what did I say? Patience, eye for detail. Patience, an eye for detail, self-understanding, and open-mindedness. I think this was, I probably said that during a time when I was under self-revelation because that sounds great. I don't think I would be able to come up with that now if you asked me.
00:20:02
Speaker
I think, I mean, remind me, I don't know when that interview was, but it was probably during COVID, like the early stages of COVID. And that was when I was chasing after quality and rarity. Like at one point, condition for me was everything. If the dial had one scratch, I would be reluctant to buy. It was just how I was. But now, you know,
00:20:32
Speaker
I think that more applies to open mindedness. I think now I'm more open minded in that regard. So to answer your question, I still think that all four would apply. Patience, definitely a lot more. I'm so patient now. But I would say like sometimes patience probably, you know, maybe once in a blue moon doesn't
00:20:55
Speaker
plan as a factor if something just comes across your table that you didn't realize that you wanted, the patient's part is completely taken out. 100%. I've had cases when something was offered and I was too late because I wanted to take more time to think about it. By the time I was ready, the watch was sold. That's the worst feeling.
00:21:21
Speaker
Another worst feeling is, you know, when you scroll through other people's feet, especially like dealers' feeds, and you see something that you've longed for, and it was posted like a year ago, and you were aware of that reference, but it wasn't something that you wanted back then. And you're slapping yourself saying, oh, I wish, oh, I wish I could, you know, go back and then reach out when they posted it.
00:21:47
Speaker
I feel like that one happens the most often. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's an easy thing for us to relate to. Um, so I agree with you something sometimes patients does backfire. Um, but what can you do? Yeah. What's your philosophy on parting with watches in your collection?
When to Let Go of Watches
00:22:06
Speaker
Is there, you know, like a one in one out or how long does it take for something to not be worn for you to say, okay, now it's time to get rid of this.
00:22:13
Speaker
That's another great question. I have to admit I tried so hard, like I gave an actual effort to try to abide by the rules of one in, one out. It's impossible. And I couldn't do it.
00:22:29
Speaker
But it was a challenge that I knew I just had to try. And if I failed, then at least I know that I tried. But I can't do it. It's too difficult. Some people can, which I applaud them. But for me, most of the time, when I part with something is usually one of two reasons.
00:22:52
Speaker
First, which is the most often reason, is when I don't wear it. I don't have the opportunity or the environment or the setting to wear something. So that's when I usually would part with it.
00:23:10
Speaker
because I would just like look at my watchbox and if that has not been worn and I know that it hasn't been worn, I would consciously be like, oh, you need to wear that because you haven't worn it. But then when I wear it out, I'm like constantly reminding myself, okay, the reason why you're wearing it right now is because you feel bad and that stresses me out even more. Yeah.
00:23:33
Speaker
So then it makes sense for me to let it go. So that's the thing that happens the most frequently. And then the second reason is something that we talked about earlier. When something in your collection, you bought it at a time, nobody really cared about it. Nobody knew what it was. So you kind of had this special,
00:23:58
Speaker
thing between you and your watch and it was kind of like a if you know you know type and you and you felt a sort of intimacy between that and then all of a sudden when everybody starts chasing after the same thing that kind of
00:24:15
Speaker
stirs up the tranquility that you had before. And in my mind, that's when I think, OK, maybe it's time to move on and try to find something else. And I said this to a friend the other day, not the other day, but like a while ago. And they were like, oh, you just want to be made feel special. Is that why? And I thought about it.
00:24:43
Speaker
And I said, you know, that's interesting, but it really is not that case. My first intuition was, oh yeah, maybe, maybe that is, that is why. But I actually took the time and I thought about it. It's not that I just want to feel special because I don't know like what would made to feel special mean like you post something and then
00:25:09
Speaker
I don't know. Maybe you can let me know. I thought about it thoroughly enough, but I don't think it's that. There's something inside of my head. I want to feel intimate with something that not everybody knows about or cares about for that matter, but it's not about being special.
00:25:33
Speaker
No, it's definitely not. And I don't think it's anything even along the lines of, oh, too many people have this now, so I don't enjoy wearing it as much. I don't think it's that either. I think what happens is with social media that if 25 other people are posting the same watch that you've been in love with, that you were one of the only people that had it and cared about it,
00:25:58
Speaker
When you're constantly seeing something each and every single day, it becomes less and less exciting to you. Yeah. Like this week at Watches and Wonders, it's very exciting for all of us because we're all seeing all of these for the first time. Yes. But in a couple months, when the ADs start pushing their watches out to everybody and we start seeing all the ones that we loved as releases from Watches and Wonders, we're going to be less and less excited about them.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's true. That's my theory. I was in love with the, of course, new Tank Normale on the Platinum bracelet, but I'm getting sick of watching videos of people post about it. As much as I love it, it's great, but I keep going back to Arrow's Instagram to look at his vintage ones. Can we just talk about that, Tank Normale, for a very quick second?
00:26:56
Speaker
We should. It's only right that we talk about it for at least a minute. I knew that they were coming out with a tech normale for quite some time, and I was, of course, very excited to look at the final launch.
00:27:08
Speaker
I think they could have done a little bit better job with the dial, because I think it did not provide as much contrast, especially on the Platinum one. But I think they killed the seven link vintage inspired bracelet.
Cartier Limited Editions Discussion
00:27:23
Speaker
I think I would just buy that watch for that bracelet, you know? Like if it had to go down to that. Of course, the watch itself is great. They tried, you can tell that they tried
00:27:34
Speaker
you know, very hard to stick with the original dimensions and are just only slightly larger. But I did have one problem with it. And maybe you can make me feel better in that regard where maybe, you know, what I say will resonate with you. It's the numbered edition thing. So, you know, when they first started the CPCP collection, they did 100 pieces.
00:27:59
Speaker
And then for the 100th anniversary of the Sintre, they did 150. And I remember there was this debate on Instagram when people found out that they were doing 150, people were like, oh yeah, but why 150? Wouldn't it make more sense?
00:28:16
Speaker
Of course, Cartier wants to do more, but for the sake of this watch and its historical provenance and its life, it would make more sense to just be a numbered edition out of 100. And then for the Pebble, okay, 150. And then all the other pieces, okay, 100. And then this year,
00:28:37
Speaker
excluding the skeletons because I don't really look at the skeletons. But the traditional versions, they came out with four, the strap versions and the bracelet versions. And the strap, they made 200 and the bracelet, they made 100 or 150? I think 100. 100, yeah.
00:28:57
Speaker
And that's what I don't like, of course, I understand from a business perspective, of course, they want to make more. But at this point, I just think it's lost to romanticism a little bit by them just keep on increasing the numbered additions. What do you think?
00:29:15
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with all of that. I also don't love the dial. I don't love the crystal on it. The bracelet is as perfect, I think, as they could have possibly gotten it. The case, to me, seems a little, like, squat-ier than a regular tank normal. Like, it doesn't have that elegance that exudes from a vintage tank normal, even though it's very similar dimensions.
00:29:43
Speaker
And then, yeah, the numbered thing bothers me because I love looking at our page and seeing some of these closures that he has that are like one of two. And obviously they're not going to do one of two pieces or something like that. But there's no rhyme or reason to the numbers that they choose. And I don't quite understand. Like if anything, why are you doing 200 pieces of the strap version? Yeah, I don't understand.
00:30:10
Speaker
That doesn't make sense to me. I think the CPC, CPCP versions should all be either more limited or not limited, or yeah, more limited or not limited because I don't, the hundred pieces doesn't make sense. 150 pieces doesn't make sense unless there's a significance with the anniversary, then that specific number makes sense. Yeah.
00:30:34
Speaker
But I think that watch is going to be 60 to 65 K. And there's a lot of Cartier collectors out there that have an amazing collection of Cartier that will never go and spend $65, $65,000 on those pieces. And they're the ones that should be appealed to and asked, you know, would you like to buy this watch? In my opinion. Yeah, I agree with everything you just said.
00:31:00
Speaker
I digress, but it's a beautiful watch. It is. I'm sure they're all sold out at this point. There's a lot of other Cartiers I'd rather have for 60K. Yeah. No, I would go vintage. I would go vintage for sure. Yeah, 100%. Beautiful watch. I think for trying to be modern, they executed the watch itself 80% of the way.
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah, but good for them that they're bringing back from their roots. A lot of brands could be doing some more things, but they are not. No doubt. I think the Pebble was maybe one of the better releases that they did in terms of a watch and keeping its integrity and not messing with it too much. Maybe they upped the size a little bit, but other than that, I think they really did the least amount with that, and I think it turned out the best for them.
00:31:52
Speaker
I agree. I agree. I still haven't seen it in person. Me either. I'm sure I'd see it and think it's too big. It is too big. Yeah. I'm sure that that's what I would think. But anyway, back to you. So your collection varies with everything from Vintage Patek Philippe to Richard Mille and Akrivia now.
Exploring Various Brands
00:32:15
Speaker
Why do you think it's important for collectors to open their eyes to different brands and areas of watchmaking and diversifying their collection? Well, I wouldn't say it's important. I just think that one should do
00:32:29
Speaker
what one's heart tells them. And it's a living entity, the taste changes. For me, I started with vintage Cartier and it took me a little bit before I was brave enough to enter Patek. But once I got into Patek, I was just kind of enthralled by the history and the beauty of the movements and everything.
00:32:56
Speaker
And that became my number one obsession, if you will. But of course, with the prices of some of these models,
00:33:09
Speaker
it's become kind of stupid to spend on a watch. So that's when, you know, when you start seeing more interesting things being offered by independence or smaller, big or small, you know, it does make you think, okay, what do I want?
00:33:31
Speaker
to add to my collection that I have yet to experience and that might actually diversify it. Because I have some watches of the same reference, but just different dials, which I love, but there's that whole other side of experience that I'm missing out in terms of independence.
00:33:52
Speaker
And I've been fortunate enough to travel to Geneva a few times to meet with these independents such as Akrivia and Peter Mambadot and Laurent Ferrier. And I love talking to the people behind the brands. So in a way, it's of course also supporting them. And when you are just lubed in,
00:34:14
Speaker
with what they're doing or developing in the backside, you can't help but feel excited for them and want to be a part of that. So I do think, you know, if someone wants to diversify the experience that they can derive from their collection, you can have a variety of tastes. But who am I to say, you know, someone can have only vintage Cartier or only vintage Rolex and that's all they care about. And I think that's great.
00:34:43
Speaker
I think it takes a lot of knowledge and experience to do that. And I don't think I'm comfortable or confident in myself to do that just yet. Maybe in five years, I will pick one brand or one model to focus on. Before now, I just want to see more different things and experience them in different ways.
00:35:06
Speaker
Absolutely. And something that you mentioned just before is like having the same watch button, a different dial color, and something that you've grown to love are complicated, protect beliefs, perpetual calendars, split seconds, et cetera. You do own two 3970s, a white dial and a black dial.
00:35:24
Speaker
But you also have a 5004 with a black dial. And I'm curious to know the collecting philosophy that you have for having both of those being that they're so similar yet so different. That being the black dial 3970 and the black dial 5004. Was it just like both came up or were you after black dials for both?
00:35:47
Speaker
So 2004, it was kind of like a grail reference for me. Oh, it's incredible. Yeah. And when one did come up, I bought it. And it's just the thickness of that watch makes it so difficult to wear.
00:36:09
Speaker
I don't know if you've seen one or held one in person but it might be better if that watch were on a closed back which that watch did not have. The watch is on a sapphire crystal which adds to the height of the watch.
00:36:26
Speaker
So in that regard, of course, it's a different watch, even though it has a similar face and similar case, but the complication is completely different and maybe like 10 times more difficult to build. Sure.
00:36:41
Speaker
But I like the 5004, yes, from a design perspective, and because it's small, and I like smaller watches, but more so because the 5004 is kind of considered a black horse reference of Patek. You know, Patek never had the intention of adding a split second mechanism on top of the 2310.
00:37:05
Speaker
Which was already you know highly modified upon the perpetual calendar modules of what not so a lot of the. Five thousand fours that did come out or produced earlier on they were broken and that's why you know paddock made so few of them is because they would not work.
00:37:24
Speaker
And that's why it's so interesting that some of them are working well, but I've heard stories where people would buy them double sealed and when they open it up, it's just broken and they would need to send it back to Patek for overhaul.
00:37:42
Speaker
Oh my God, that is devastating. Yeah, so a lot of those watches did not work properly or function, function wise. But there's just something beautiful about that. I cannot deny that there is fault to such a legendary reference. And of course, you know, with the 5204, which they developed very soon after the 5004, everything's fine with that.
00:38:08
Speaker
with their in-house caliber. So in that regard, the Black Dial, 5004 versus the 3970, sure, it's completely different. With regard of the two 3970s, I have a silver dial and a black dial, and they're the exact same watch. But the cases are actually different, and many people don't know that. Different series? Yes, different series.
00:38:33
Speaker
So the silver dial is second series and those cases back then were still made by hand and hand soldered on. But when it came to I think like the fourth series of the 3970s and even the cases of 5004s, they're not handmade.
00:38:49
Speaker
So they're made by CNC machines, I would presume. So if you look at auction experts, when they talk about the lugs of a $24.99, they would usually say, oh yeah, the step on the lugs is so sharp that it's never been polished. So that stands true.
00:39:07
Speaker
with the first series 3970 and even the second series. But when you look at the cases of the 5004 or the black dial 3970 that I have, which was produced in the 2010s, all of them were made by machines. And I did not know that. When I first got that 3970, which is before I got the 5004, it was marketed to me as brand new or like new.
00:39:33
Speaker
You know, when I first saw, I was like, oh my God, this is evidently polished because the look, the step is not as evident or prominent as the second series. And later on, did I find out that, OK, it's just completely different cases, case process. So I thought the watch was polished or over polished. It just turned out it was different.
00:39:57
Speaker
Amazing. We never know what we're going to, you know, sell from our collections or fall in and out of love with, but knowing that you view the 5004 as absurdly thick and a little bit difficult to wear.
Long-term Keepsakes
00:40:12
Speaker
Do you picture it as a watch that you'll always keep if you had to make that decision right now?
00:40:17
Speaker
Oh, it would be a dream to own a 5004A, like a steel 5004. I think because it's such a heavy watch as well. I think if I owned a 5004A, I would very much wear it. But for the G and
00:40:37
Speaker
in platinum or in gold, I don't see that as a watch that I would own for the rest of my life. So if I see something interesting or like a vintage paddock and I had to sell something, I would definitely, between the 3970 and the reference 5004, I would probably sell the 5004 and keep my 3970 to fund a potential purchase.
00:41:05
Speaker
Got it. That's what I had figured, but... Yeah. So when it comes to collecting, and we kind of spoke about this as, you know, not wearing something enough and having to get rid of it, do you think that there could ever be too much of a good thing? You know, do you ever look at your collection and get worried when you're getting ready to add another piece that you're gonna do that just to wear something a little bit less? Does that ever worry you?
00:41:29
Speaker
you're asking all great questions because these are all things I would think before. I'm pulling at the heartstrings here. Yeah, before making a purchase. It does worry me. And it actually annoys me a little bit. If that's a strong word, I apologize.
00:41:49
Speaker
So for me, I don't obsess over possession. So for me, I derive more enjoyment and feeling out of when I see a watch that fits in a certain role of my life. So I have dress watches, but each dress watch would be different. I can see myself wearing them and enjoying them in a different environment.
00:42:17
Speaker
But when I do buy something that I think is better than the one that I currently have in my collection that does the same thing or serves the same role, I think after a while it would start worrying me that I haven't worn one of them. And that's when I would consider, you know, maybe moving it on or trading it towards something else.
Collection Consolidation
00:42:43
Speaker
I'm kind of in that predicament right now.
00:42:46
Speaker
Oh yeah, tell me. Yeah. So I have a reference 5066A Aquanaut. Yeah. And I have a 16750 GMT Pepsi in my collection. And I adore both. I wear both. But I really, really love the Aquanaut 5164A. And I think it's like a perfect culmination of the two that I have.
00:43:15
Speaker
being that it is, you know, a travel time aquanaut and, you know, with the GMT function. And then I have my aquanaut that I love. So I'm in the predicament of like, I was right here. I would say go for the 51 64. Yeah. You're actually the only person that has said that so far. Everyone's like, no, keep the two vintage or, you know, your two vintage are so much cooler, the vintage charm. And I'm like,
00:43:44
Speaker
I don't disagree. The only thing is, would you find the 5164 too big? I don't necessarily think so. I'll wear a Patek 3796, which is 30.5mm or 31mm, and I'll wear a Speedmaster, which is 42mm.
00:44:04
Speaker
I'm comfortable with wearing bigger, smaller. I like having a diversification in the collection. Obviously, the 5164 comes in at 40.8 millimeters and now we're really nerding out on details, but I don't know. There's just something so interesting about that watch and it really being a culmination of the two.
00:44:27
Speaker
I obviously can't give both the same amount of risk time. So if I combine them into one, would I get a lot more joy?
00:44:36
Speaker
So this is how I think about it, right? First of all, for like just an everyday watch, I don't think you can beat it because the GMT, like the Pepsi is on a bracelet, right? And I don't know like if you like bracelets or not, but for me, I don't own that many bracelet watches because I think they're so easily like scratchable. And I would much rather to wear a watch like on a rubber strap sometimes.
00:45:00
Speaker
The good thing about like the 5164 also is there are so many strap options that are available for aquanauts. I feel like you cannot get tired of it. And also, another thing, just after looking at the new releases from Patek, oh my god, what are they doing? I know. It makes me, I think you cannot go wrong with a 5164 after looking at what they're putting out.
00:45:29
Speaker
I agree. I agree. Totally. So that's what I'm thinking. Yeah. And my other thing is like my wife got me a lovely vintage Explorer to a polar dial for when we got engaged, which is virtually a GMT. Um, so I don't necessarily need both. Yeah. Now I'm just talking myself into it. Well, let me know what you decide a while before you finally decide, I'm sure, but
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah, I'll let you know. Yeah. So in 2022, GQ named you one of the top five watch collectors. So with all that pressure, where do you expect your collection to go from here? Or are there any fun incomings that you can share with us?
GQ Recognition and Collection Direction
00:46:15
Speaker
I don't think I'm going to be named again. But in all honesty, that's very kind of them to say. And it's an honor to be with the people who are on that list. I mean, Aro, Rony. But for me right now, I'm on such a tangent.
00:46:39
Speaker
right now that I can't even make sense of it myself. Well, I think the perfect answer is your Acrivia and the Richard Mill that you got. Those two are the perfect definition of your tangent. That is one tangent, but I would say a bigger tangent of mine right now are just obscure vintage references with cool case designs.
00:47:06
Speaker
And I have yet to share them on Instagram. I've got a few recently. I'm wearing one right now. Nobody knows the references of, and you can't even find much information about them, but I- Those are the best.
00:47:24
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah, you can argue it that way, but you know, I love it. I love looking at the case construction. So that's the tangent I'm on right now. I'm sure I'll share some in the next few weeks or months, but I recently picked up, I guess on the topic of incoming, I picked up two vintage paddocks. They're both rose gold with a black dial.
00:47:50
Speaker
And I mean, you can't tell what they are, even if you look at them. So one has hooded lugs, and the other one kind of has a sandwich case shape that has like three steps. Wild. It is wild. And nobody pays attention to them. And I think people should, I guess, because they're such great watches and relatively affordable. So that's my incomings.
00:48:20
Speaker
I love that. That's great. Yeah, so I guess summarize like small, cool case design vintage pieces. That's my tangent right now. But then of course, independence, but it's not, you know, you can get a Richard Mill every two months or something. But fingers crossed, like knock on wood, they did tell me
00:48:45
Speaker
that I'm on the back quarter of something that I've been wanting for since like 2019. So I guess almost four years. And they told me that I should be receiving it soon. But who knows, we'll see when it happens. Fingers crossed. Yep, yep, for sure.
The Waiting List Podcast Plans
00:49:07
Speaker
I want to make sure we talk about your podcast, The Waiting List, and you and your podcast team are approaching 150 episodes, which is amazing. So congrats to you. It's wild. Any plans for The Waiting List beyond the podcast? Not really. I think it's wild when you put it like that, like 150 episode.
00:49:29
Speaker
It's such a special thing to me because I mean I connected to those two via the podcast the most and we've become such great friends and it's gotten me through COVID like I was living by myself and it was just nice to turn on the camera and talk about whatever that comes to mind and we're fortunate to have invited people onto the podcast who
00:49:55
Speaker
Share that wild side with us I mean we're not the most PG if you've listened to a few episodes and actually you'll come on as well I would I would love to
00:50:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure we'll have a great chat. But it's just one of those things that I'm fortunate to have. In terms of plans, because we're in different continents and different parts of the world, I still have yet to meet those two. So we're thinking we have been discussing potentially doing some video format or short clips of our recordings.
00:50:34
Speaker
nothing in the plan so far, but yeah, it's just great. And it's actually, you know, a completely different experience from what we are having right now. I feel like I'm so zened out right now, but then when we're recording, like the energy levels are through the roof, you know? So you must come on and we'll share that with you. I would love to.
00:51:02
Speaker
All right, Jack, let's finish up here with the collector's dream rundown.
Collecting Sneakers vs. Wearing Them
00:51:05
Speaker
And I know that you collect a few different things like ceramics and sneakers, which I would love to have you back on to talk about those two things for sure. But you can answer these next questions based on any of the things that you collect. Sure. All right. What's the one that got away? Maybe you missed it at auction or one that, you know, was in your collection that you let go of that you wish you never did.
00:51:30
Speaker
Oh, sneakers. Definitely sneakers. Some of the values are crazy. I started collecting sneakers when there were obviously subcircles, but not this crazy. I was fortunate to have had some really rare stuff.
00:51:51
Speaker
I don't know if anybody will know, but with Night Kiss B in particular, there's a really famous kind of city pack. And I guess you could consider that as the 2499 or the 1518s of Patek or like a Paul Newman Daytona. So those are really rare stuff. And they made four shoes. They made the Paris dunks. They made the Tokyo. They made the London. And they made the New York pigeons. Those four were the city pack.
00:52:19
Speaker
You know, I had the pleasure of owning
00:52:26
Speaker
the Tokyo, one Tokyo dunk, one London dunk, and two Paris's. And of the four, the most valuable were by far the Paris dunks. And I had, you know, I was lucky enough to have owned two, one was that stock, and one that I did wear that was smaller size because I was more young. But you know, I have big feet, I'm pretty tall.
00:52:49
Speaker
but I traded those away for stupid money. And recently I saw one, dead stock size 10, sell for like 120K. And I'm just like, no, I wish I were.
00:53:05
Speaker
So that would be one that got away. And that's just like one example. I had some of the most, I had an unreleased yellow lobster dump cloe from Concepts. I think those released in 2010. And I bought that on eBay for stupid money, for like a pair of regular sneakers. And now they're going for like dead stock, so brand new condition in the size that I owned. You can find them like in dead stock for like 50K.
00:53:35
Speaker
Oh my gosh. So can you imagine if I had, and that's just, you know, I, I own some more cooler ones that I just sold. I sold a lot of thinkers to fund watches as well, but if only I kept them, you know, you could, you could, you could get a lot done with that. Yeah. Who knew? Yeah. How about the on deck circle for you? What's next for you and you're collecting, and this could be in any of the categories.
00:54:03
Speaker
For me, I think I'm done with sneakers for a little bit. I still collect, but not, you know, not as intense as what I did before. For me, it would be some watch. And I have to go back to my previous answer, which is, you know, weird, architectural, case-shaped watches. I would love what Roni has, like the Gerber Albert.
00:54:33
Speaker
Oh yeah. If I can find one. Yeah.
00:54:37
Speaker
A question on sneakers. Has your interest fallen from those a little bit because you're collecting two other things now being watches and ceramics that you use for their purpose, right? Watches, you wear them, ceramics, you display them. Sneakers, you're supposed to wear them, but when you collect them, a lot of times you don't want to wear them because it could deplete the value. Is that a reason maybe why you're as uninterested?
00:55:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I wouldn't call that the main reason. I think the main reason would just be like they're so expensive now that if I were to spend the same money, I think I would get more enjoyment out of watches. But that's also another partial reason.
00:55:23
Speaker
And now I feel like sneakers is just so hyped that I just buy what I like and I wear them now. And I don't buy anything insanely wild or crazy. I bought a few new balances recently, like the collabs that they did. And I just wear them. And I still like them, but I would not stock them anymore as I did before.
Interest in Chinese Artifacts
00:55:53
Speaker
All right. How about the unobtainable? So this is one that's too expensive in a museum or a private collection that you just can't have. Um, Oh God. It was the 5,004 and now you have it. Yeah. No, it has to be another watch. Of course. I'm not so
00:56:17
Speaker
obsessive over complications now i think i was a year ago i'm still obsessed over like split seconds because i think it's a like a magical thing but now like i would kill for just a vintage 96 calatrava one that is
00:56:39
Speaker
I don't know, a unique dial in the Patek Museum. Every time I go to Geneva, I would go to the Patek Museum. And every time I go, I would just, oof, if I could, if I could choose one, you know, I would, I would have such a headache over it because I don't know which one to choose. But I think, I love the 96. I love the 96. Yeah. And a lot of them are,
00:57:06
Speaker
ridiculously overpriced, not overpriced, but a lot of them are ridiculously expensive, I should say. They are. So I opted for the $37.96 just because it's way more affordable. Same dimensions. Well, and you also have a very good version of the $31.96. I got lucky. Yeah, you did, which I would also opt for that. Like if given a regular vintage $96 versus that, 100%
00:57:33
Speaker
But I mean, just looking at what is going to come up at Philips Hong Kong, that watch kind of broke the internet a little bit. For sure. And so I think people, collectors are going back to smaller watches. And I think for good reason. The watch doesn't have to be demanding in size to be enjoyed. I think there's a lot to be said and unsaid about wearing a small watch. Couldn't agree more.
00:58:02
Speaker
All right, the page one rewrite. So if you could collect anything besides your current collections, money, no object, what would it be? If I could collect anything. I'm taking a class on Imperial China right now at school. And some of the old scroll paintings that we've seen. Aren't those incredible? Yeah.
00:58:30
Speaker
But I mean, if money were no issue, that is. I just love old things.
00:58:37
Speaker
And I would love to collect either old scroll paintings, or I don't know what it's called in English, but old perfume bottles in the Song Dynasty that were made of jade and edged in. I think they're beautiful. I think one sold at auction for an insane amount of money, but just the intricate details.
00:59:07
Speaker
That you see in those perfume bottles and I was like really like niche but something like that, you know something from those are super interesting like all the old like cinnabar boxes Yeah, and you know vases and like you said perfume bottles. I love all that stuff, too Yeah, and and I think I I'm just like so obsessed with song dynasty history right now like
00:59:35
Speaker
everything, how women had power and women were allowed to be in the rural courts to how the economy was flourishing and what the government instilled like the policies. It's really interesting when you when you look into stuff like that.
00:59:50
Speaker
And me, you know, growing up in China, but I really grew up in Canada, I never had the opportunity to be in touch with my roots. So finally, you know, I have this one class where we're learning about Imperial Chinese history. I don't know. It's just something that I'm really enjoying right now. Love it. How about the goat for you? So who do you look up to in the collecting world?
Mentorship and Influence
01:00:14
Speaker
A few people. First and foremost, Mr. R. O. Montanari.
01:00:21
Speaker
I think he's been the most answered for that on this podcast. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. I've still yet to meet him or talk to him. So I would love to have the opportunity to chat with him one day. Another go for me.
01:00:45
Speaker
I mean, of course, Roni, I call him the maestro. I call him my mentor, you know? Because I saw him on Talking Watches, and when I reached out, I never expected a reply. And so when he did reply, I was so shocked. And we had so much to say. I mean, now I know it's because the guy lives on Instagram. Like, he does not sleep.
01:01:08
Speaker
Does not yeah, but but before when I didn't know him that well, I was just so you know, I was I was so I Appreciated his time that he took out to answer my questions and guide me in so many ways Really great guy and kind-hearted individual Who else may I say?
01:01:29
Speaker
George Kramer, I guess kind of a tribute in this sense. He and I, again, an individual I'd never met before, but when I started with, and again, it was with vintage Cartier, I reached out to Gio and he
01:01:46
Speaker
responded with so much patience and inquisitiveness. And I remember the first trip I made to Tokyo in Hunt for Watches, and it was in January in 2020, so right at the beginning.
01:02:03
Speaker
I was at this vintage shop called Privatize, which, you know, people listening, if you plan to go to Tokyo, I'd highly recommend it. Got to go. Yeah. And I remember, you know, I was there looking for vintage Cartier, and the owner showed me this vintage tank, Platinum Obus, with a back winding crown.
01:02:25
Speaker
And I'd never seen anything like it. So I took a photo and I showed it to Gio and I was like, Gio, what on earth is that? And he said, Oh yeah, it's a vintage, uh, Obis with a back winding mechanism. The, uh,
01:02:42
Speaker
the movement is probably PK and more EWC it's great thank you so much for sharing and he was just like oh you should ask him for this or that and I just remember like that was the first trip and I knew nothing I was learning so much from him and he gave me so much time and patience and we shared you know curiosities together and
01:03:11
Speaker
I remember when I got my octophanesimone, I messaged him because he has the same one and we also bonded over that. I've never met the guy and I've never heard his voice even, but it was just
01:03:28
Speaker
I was just so shocked by that. And I really hope that his family is in a good place and he has rested well, but he has in many ways been one of the first mentors I reached out to on Instagram.
01:03:48
Speaker
Yeah, rest in peace to Gio and condolences to his family. He was always so kind to me as well and generous with information and time and patience, as you said, as I think he was to everybody, which is why we were all probably very shocked this week to hear that sad news. Yeah. On something more happy, do you enjoy the hunt or the ownership more?
The Joy of the Hunt
01:04:16
Speaker
Oh, definitely the hunt. 100%. You and I both. Most importantly, do you feel that you were born with the collector's gene? I think collector's gene may be hoarder's gene. Yeah, I think
01:04:39
Speaker
I always wanted to curate. I just have this interest to curate something, even with photography. Even old childhood toys, I don't want to throw them out. So there is something to be said, I guess, with that.
01:05:04
Speaker
with, I guess, holding on to small pieces of the past that tells a story, perhaps. Love it. Jacqueline, thank you so much for coming on and joining me today. It's always so great to chat with you, and I look forward to seeing more ebbs and flows in your collecting. It's a pleasure. Let's now have you come on to the waiting list.
01:05:30
Speaker
You tell me when I'll be there. No, we have to because it's completely different and they'll tell you more off recording. But thank you so much, Cam, for having me. This is, wow, I'm really relaxed right now. You have a really soothing voice. Thank
Episode Conclusion
01:05:51
Speaker
you. Now you're ready for bed on the East Coast. Yeah, it's really great to listen to. So yeah. Thanks, Jack. Take care. Yeah, bye bye.
01:06:01
Speaker
All right, that does it for this episode. Thank you all for listening to Collector's Gene Radio.