Transcript
Speaker: Hi, and welcome to What IT Takes to Lead.
Speaker: I'm your host, Matt Detweiler, and today we have Scott Hackman, founder and CEO of Scott Hackman Ventures on our show.
Speaker: Welcome, Scott.
Speaker: Thanks, Matt.
Speaker: Good to be with you in this forum.
Speaker: I've known Scott for about five years now.
Speaker: He came out as a coach to my current company.
Speaker: Do you want to give us a quick intro of what you do and what Scott Hackman Ventures is about?
Speaker: Oh yeah, sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So we exist to help organizations navigate the people side of business.
Speaker: And what that means is we listen, we come alongside and we help executives and their teams grow at inflection points during change.
Speaker: So I'm an executive coach, advisor, and I lead a team of coaches and consultants.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: As you know, the focus of this show, what I'm trying to cultivate is I think there's a lot of podcasts out there that spend a ton of time on leadership, right?
Speaker: They interview a lot of CIOs.
Speaker: They interview a lot of management people.
Speaker: And it's always, okay, how do you be a good leader?
Speaker: And I think that's really important.
Speaker: But the thing that seemed to me that was lacking out there is really a podcast of what does it take to become a leader?
Speaker: You don't have to be an IT to be.
Speaker: that in mind, I really do want to dig into your origin story.
Speaker: What I saw on LinkedIn is it looks like you have almost 15 years of experience or more going through and coaching, but what were the lessons or what were the steps that you had to take to become a leader in your role now?
Speaker: The origin of this for me was a windy road.
Speaker: So I was interested in
Speaker: Undergrad, psychology, family, youth, development.
Speaker: And I worked in nonprofit.
Speaker: I actually worked in church as a minister for five years.
Speaker: And then we started a family business.
Speaker: My family did it in coffee.
Speaker: And ran into a lot of the founder problems and family business problems that we didn't know existed.
Speaker: And I was recruited by a family business agency that also helped my family business.
Speaker: They create some structures around governance and decision making and those sorts of things.
Speaker: So I was only in the family business I helped start with my wife and my father in the actual operating company for less than four years.
Speaker: So I got it off the ground.
Speaker: And then I became a consultant.
Speaker: And I didn't even know what a consultant was.
Speaker: I remember when I was transitioning out and in between getting recruited to this firm, I was really trying to figure out what I was supposed to do.
Speaker: What would my career be?
Speaker: I mean, there isn't much career for someone who thought they were going to be a minister and then realized that wasn't going to be it.
Speaker: A family business founder who was good at getting off the ground but wasn't good at operating.
Speaker: And we had better leadership.
Speaker: My wife operated it and a consultant that coaches and that comes alongside is someone who is good at understanding systems.
Speaker: They're good at listening.
Speaker: They understand the psychology or the human behavioral side of organization.
Speaker: But they're not really an expert of the industry they're in.
Speaker: And once I was mentored up into that through the Family Business Agency, I saw in the family businesses we were working with, because I was in there for seven years, really an opportunity where these groups were coming to us to preserve the legacy, to mitigate the risk of conflict.
Speaker: There was the people side.
Speaker: There was the leadership side of the actual company that was most interesting to me.
Speaker: And when I had an opportunity in 2018, I took it.
Speaker: I was bought out by that firm and started my own practice as a leadership coach and an executive advisor that got brought in for change and transition management.
Speaker: And
Speaker: During COVID, one of our team members and I were managing like 16 cases or working with 16 businesses.
Speaker: And it like doubled in the first year of COVID.
Speaker: And we were able to hire two more team members.
Speaker: And really, it's the team we have today that's creating change management processes and leadership and organizational development processing.
Speaker: And that I'm learning now.
Speaker: from them because they bring a whole field of expertise in this work as well.
Speaker: So it's my favorite thing is being able to hear these needs of the organization, design plans or processes, and then have a team that is actually partnering with an organization as the human capital side.
Speaker: There's a return on investing in people during this intense time of change and growth.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: Can I answer the origin?
Speaker: I got to think it's got to be really entertaining.
Speaker: But, you know, in dealing with a family run business, I got to think sometimes you've seen some stuff that's just blown your mind because it's the family dynamic in a business setting.
Speaker: Yeah, because we can't cut off our intersection of who we are and the drama that we play out, not just if we're a family, but that we can play out in our organizations because of how we bring forward our
Speaker: identities, the intersection of what, of how we see ourselves.
Speaker: So if you take a family, there are trumps because you're the youngest, you're the oldest, you're the, you act this sort of way in the family.
Speaker: And now I'm in business.
Speaker: Some of that stuff is very true.
Speaker: It's very hard to go against the headwind of your narrative.
Speaker: in your family, like go to family dinner as an adult and something said, and all of a sudden you're 12, right?
Speaker: Like you're something like that.
Speaker: Well, go to your management meeting and something said, and all of a sudden you're acting like you're 12.
Speaker: Like there is truth to that.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: But yeah, I've seen some things, some things that,
Speaker: are shocking.
Speaker: I enjoy watching shows like Succession.
Speaker: I enjoy that are just extreme examples of family business dynamics.
Speaker: And I've seen some amazing things when the, like some of the most beautiful thing about a family from an ownership of a business standpoint, in my opinion, is they don't have to think in three month period of time.
Speaker: Like they're not, they don't have to think, I got to return something for my shareholder in three months.
Speaker: They can think.
Speaker: in a much more long-term view.
Speaker: And when they're incorporating their employees, the whole picture of the business, the employee, the customer, the vendor, the communities they live in, and they are living based, making business decisions or organizational decisions based on values that they're able to be held to account on from their employees.
Speaker: There's a great standard, but from a drama side, a lot of family business advisors, which I don't wear that label anymore.
Speaker: I've done it.
Speaker: I understand what it is.
Speaker: Get brought in because there's a lot of conflict and they get brought in to, to mitigate the risk of dysfunctional litigious conflict sometimes.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So another thing I want to ask about your origin story, you know, when we're thinking about what it takes to become a leader, how are people growing into these roles?
Speaker: One thing that I've always admired about you and your style of leadership is, I guess the proper term these days is emotionally intelligent.
Speaker: You strike me always as somebody who's kind of leading from his heart, who's looking out for the humans rather than the straight up dollars and cents standard corporate role.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: What do you think really in terms of your origin and how you've grown into that?
Speaker: Does that come from your background in ministry?
Speaker: Does that just come from you as a person?
Speaker: How did you get there?
Speaker: Um, I think I'm, so I love learning.
Speaker: I love reading books and I don't know how I got there.
Speaker: A couple of things that stand out is like, what doesn't work?
Speaker: Things that didn't work for me.
Speaker: I think I got there through a lot of failure and I don't want to use the word mistake.
Speaker: Like I want to use the word failure.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: You know, not being able to regulate properly, emotionally regulate properly.
Speaker: So I, if we go all the way back, I was always, I was a child, a young person and a young adult who had big feelings raised in a community where guys that look like me aren't supposed to have those big feelings.
Speaker: So I was, it was just for whatever, you know, it didn't, I didn't fit a thing.
Speaker: I didn't fit a norm.
Speaker: I'm someone who managed those big feelings as a young adult and early adult in sometimes destructive ways, habitually.
Speaker: And
Speaker: Once I learned about, through therapy, through reading the psychology around emotional intelligence, some of Brené Brown's work on shame and vulnerability, Dr. Mark Brackett's work on emotional literacy, and then started internalizing it and then also articulating it with people that I'm listening to.
Speaker: I mean, I'm a coach, and a coach is a listener and asking questions and saying back what they're hearing.
Speaker: Coach isn't a therapist.
Speaker: It's like what I was doing in my 20s wasn't working.
Speaker: What I was doing in my 30s sometimes working, not really working.
Speaker: Now into my 40s, I have more days of it working.
Speaker: than not working.
Speaker: And a lot of it has to do with emotional literacy, intelligence, and the tools that I think almost every high-performing leader will need.
Speaker: Or they have a somewhat probably dysfunctional coping strategy on the side.
Speaker: Because you have to, we're human.
Speaker: And the amount of pressure, the amount of inputs, if you don't have a...
Speaker: process to manage yourself or lead yourself you can't handle the feedback you're getting from customers employees to stay calm present to then actually improve something you get turnover you get upset customers I mean you get real problems
Speaker: What I'm hearing from you that I think is exciting is as a person with larger than life emotions, and I deal with this.
Speaker: I have a nine-year-old kid at home.
Speaker: He's got the emotions of a 40-year-old trying to be in a nine-year-old body.
Speaker: But I think what's really powerful about what you just said is in your path to, to growth, to leadership, you took this thing that at one point in your life, you viewed as your Achilles heel, the thing that you were an outcast for.
Speaker: And now you're making, you're, you're making the big bucks off of this thing that was your weakness.
Speaker: And I think that's it.
Speaker: We're talking about what it takes to lead or what you need to lead.
Speaker: That is such a powerful thing.
Speaker: being able to turn that around, being able to have the awareness that you need and emotional intelligence, the human side of business is such a big thing right now.
Speaker: Uh, in fact, I was actually on a call.
Speaker: It was, I, I get into a lot of these leadership groups and meetings and therapy, you know, all this stuff.
Speaker: Cause I want to learn.
Speaker: I'm very interested in this stuff.
Speaker: And I attended a talk with someone from Raytheon, right?
Speaker: I'm not going to call out who it was or what position, but one of the things that they highlighted was coming into the COVID era.
Speaker: You think about Raytheon.
Speaker: For those that don't know the company, they're an aerospace and defense company.
Speaker: They build all sorts of things that we send to war.
Speaker: But they noted that as they started working from home,
Speaker: Now we're having meetings and somebody's got their dog in their lap.
Speaker: They got their kid coming over for a sandwich.
Speaker: They have all these things.
Speaker: And the quote from them, and I'm not going to quote it directly, but we had to evaluate how we were approaching our employees and start treating them as humans.
Speaker: That is a high-level person at Raytheon.
Speaker: Like, how awesome.
Speaker: I mean, COVID was a terrible, terrible, horrible thing.
Speaker: I'm sure none of us want to go through all that fear again.
Speaker: But to come out of that, one of the largest corporations in the world saying that they need to focus on the human side more and make that stuff okay.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That is.
Speaker: Wow, exactly.
Speaker: And you said something there that it's like, what is a leader?
Speaker: You started to think it's someone who has to accomplish goals with and through people.
Speaker: And yet somehow there's been a long myth.
Speaker: Prostner from the book 13ers would say it's a 250 year old myth of dominance.
Speaker: Like we have to dominate our competition.
Speaker: Well, that idea of dominance became, I think, incorporated into our corporate structures.
Speaker: Like I, the leader, manager, need to have all the answers, need to be able to tell you what to do.
Speaker: You're a commodity person to do this thing, this task, in the most efficient way possible so that we make the most money possible.
Speaker: Well, the problem is people don't like that.
Speaker: They don't respond over a long period of time well to being dominated.
Speaker: And they will actually perform when they feel heard and cared for.
Speaker: For taking this Wraithian example, like, oh, we had to acknowledge that they have children.
Speaker: We had to acknowledge they have animals.
Speaker: We had to acknowledge they have this life outside of this thing we've created.
Speaker: And that for them to do well here...
Speaker: We have to at least acknowledge that.
Speaker: There's this whole other side to this person that's making this contribution to our organization.
Speaker: When it used to be, well, we're paying you.
Speaker: It's just this transaction.
Speaker: We gave you money, you give us this.
Speaker: Well, transactions, one of the least motivating factors in any relationship.
Speaker: In fact, when, when my relationships or our relationships with clients move more transactional, that's when we know we're on our way out sometimes.
Speaker: So it's like, for whatever reason, it feels like a transaction.
Speaker: Well, yeah, we're not a partner anymore.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Cause, cause talk about leaders, leaders can go find other jobs.
Speaker: There's a headline for the entire episode right there.
Speaker: And IT?
Speaker: Like, IT?
Speaker: I can only imagine.
Speaker: I would like to know from you, actually.
Speaker: people with your level of expertise in your field who are emotionally intelligent like you, Matt, and are building these bridges and translating code and programming on I don't know your world and with people listening to people, they must be so valuable in the market.
Speaker: I honestly feel there's different phases to IT management.
Speaker: There's the team leader who is heavily involved in day-to-day doing the work.
Speaker: Maybe they're also doing some one-on-ones, things like that, guiding the folks that they're leading.
Speaker: Then you go to a more director-level position.
Speaker: or a manager position, and that job changes a little bit.
Speaker: Maybe you're still doing some of the day-to-day, maybe you're managing one or two teams at this point, but you're slowly backing out of that day-to-day technical role, and what you're focusing on now is how do you build the next leaders in your team?
Speaker: Obviously, the step after that, when you're talking about a senior leadership role in IT,
Speaker: Now the whole game changes.
Speaker: There's senior IT leaders who are phenomenal techs and they have the niche that they're in, be it networking, security, whatever, right?
Speaker: And they can guide a very narrow band of those people in an enterprise organization.
Speaker: Then you have people who have sort of a very broad base of experience, and those people tend to be CIOs and CTOs and things like that.
Speaker: But IT is a weird place because the joke about IT job descriptions is if you're a developer and you go out there and you look at some of these descriptions online,
Speaker: They want you to know every single programming language out there.
Speaker: They want you to have 35 years of experience and they want you to start off at 45,000 a year.
Speaker: And it's very frightening.
Speaker: The amount of imposter syndrome in this industry is just sickening.
Speaker: You have those job descriptions and they scare people off.
Speaker: And the folks that are brave and bold, the folks that get those jobs, they might know two languages really well.
Speaker: They might know databases.
Speaker: They might know, but, but they have lots of holes in their experience.
Speaker: What I look for when I hire is, are you competent enough to do the job?
Speaker: And are you trainable?
Speaker: Can you learn right to answer your question?
Speaker: Can an IT leader go anywhere?
Speaker: It depends on the organization and their goals.
Speaker: I think if they're looking for somebody who's an all-arounder, that's a very different take than if they're a Fortune 500 company looking for somebody with rock-solid security skills.
Speaker: I love reading job descriptions.
Speaker: I think there's such a window into the thought process of the organization, how well they prepare.
Speaker: You know, it's kind of a fun hobby.
Speaker: Do you do it?
Speaker: Yeah, with job descriptions, do you do success profile or the priority, not just in the job, but emotional intelligence, growth mindset, culture fit?
Speaker: Do you create a metric for the other parts of their role, if you will?
Speaker: These are the things that will make you successful in this role, in this specific organization.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's actually a really good question.
Speaker: My job descriptions, I usually keep more towards the technical side.
Speaker: As you know, my current company, we are a very emotionally intelligent company.
Speaker: We're a team of just rock solid, phenomenal communicators.
Speaker: It's probably a good idea if we started doing that kind of thing.
Speaker: But really, for me, I couldn't hire anybody on a resume alone.
Speaker: I need to know, are you a communicator?
Speaker: Are you somebody who loves to learn?
Speaker: Are you somebody that can come in and get along?
Speaker: And I think those things, I don't think they're just unique to my company.
Speaker: I think they're unique to every company.
Speaker: As humans, we have this, this tribal mentality or this group mentality and
Speaker: Opening up a new job position, it's almost like adopting a child or adopting a family member.
Speaker: If you pick the wrong person, it can be highly disruptive to the organization.
Speaker: And if you pick the right person, well, that could be the rocket that your company takes to the moon.
Speaker: I'm learning from having a window into executive search.
Speaker: I've been doing more consultative work alongside of executive search firms and that's where I learned that.
Speaker: And so organizations that are becoming more explicit are just giving themselves a leg up or an opportunity to give that person a better chance to be successful and maybe even be successful faster.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think it sends a signal.
Speaker: If you're reading a job description and they're talking about emotional intelligence and communication skills, things that are outside of that normal job description post, it does give you a highlight into what type of company you're dealing with.
Speaker: If they're going to mention that sort of thing, they obviously care.
Speaker: When I think about the folks that I've led, had the privilege to lead, it's funny because we tend to hire on skill and then we try to train people on emotional intelligence and these things.
Speaker: And it's so backwards because anybody that has aptitude that's willing to read a book that has a little bit of a background in IT, they can probably learn most of the things that they need to learn eventually.
Speaker: Maybe you need a little bit quicker than that, but...
Speaker: But the most difficult things are teaching somebody how to communicate in an organization.
Speaker: When we talk about what it takes to become a leader, I've had situations personally where I've had to basically tell somebody, hey, your communication style isn't working.
Speaker: When I think about that, I think I just, I'm about to tell this person that how they communicate as a human being isn't good enough.
Speaker: And how do you package that up as a leader and deliver it?
Speaker: Like, I can't think of a more offensive comment to say to somebody, but we have to go forward and help people grow.
Speaker: One of the things your organization has done well is socialize the idea that around there, around here, we all continuously improve.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: And part of the way we know we will continuously improve is we will get feedback.
Speaker: That's specific, inactionable,
Speaker: And that's a skill too, learning to give and receive feedback in a way that I think of Kim Scott immediately, which is a book your organization read, Radical Candor, around can be clear and it can be direct, it can be kind, and it can be challenging and constructive.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: People like me, you know, one of my growing edges has been when I'm leading a team, not consulting or coaching.
Speaker: Consulting or coaching is actually more comfortable because I'm listening, I'm offering.
Speaker: When I'm leading, it's actually more uncomfortable for me.
Speaker: So think of the irony of what I just said.
Speaker: The reason why is because of conflict.
Speaker: Conflict from a conflict competency standpoint is
Speaker: My go-to conflict style, like I took the Thomas Kilman assessment, is accommodating and avoiding.
Speaker: They're like, that's the muscle I built over time.
Speaker: I know why I know where it came from.
Speaker: Bad people don't like you and you're bad for it.
Speaker: And so I got really good at it and I survived through that skill.
Speaker: Well, that skill, I need to learn assertiveness when leading.
Speaker: I need to be okay.
Speaker: That's people don't like it.
Speaker: And I need to be willing to go into a debate and, um,
Speaker: be in that challenge and stay in that ideological challenge, the idea side of it, and not personalize it or internalize it.
Speaker: So that's another growing edge.
Speaker: So I think from a leadership standpoint, and you can speak, I'm curious what you think about this, like getting comfortable with that discomfort of how people feel about you, what people think about you, and still caring, like caring about the job we're about to do, caring about
Speaker: the whole group or teams performance, like caring about how the whole thing is getting evaluated.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Parenting has taught me so much about being a leader.
Speaker: I would not be anywhere near where I am without noticing and being self-aware of my weaknesses as a parent.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It really opens up your eyes.
Speaker: Kids, they change so quickly.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: It's very evident when your parenting or leadership style with your child is not going well.
Speaker: And they're not afraid to tell you that, right?
Speaker: They're not afraid to scream in your face at three in the morning.
Speaker: My leadership style has really evolved over the years.
Speaker: I tend to lead with my heart.
Speaker: I tend to approach people as humans.
Speaker: I really think that not just trying to build an open and honest group, but actually building a place where people can work and take pride in their skill as a craftsperson.
Speaker: I think the biggest goal for me, I've had a few roles over the years where one of my old problems was I'd have a lot of internal discussions about work.
Speaker: Things wouldn't go right.
Speaker: I'd come home from work and I would constantly think, okay, well, I know there's this problem that we have to handle tomorrow.
Speaker: I am going to have a conversation in my head for the next 12 hours to try and fix this thing by tomorrow morning.
Speaker: And that monster never materialized.
Speaker: And, and, and it's in thinking about that, that, that really, when I think about how I want to lead, that's the question I want to ask my people.
Speaker: Do you think about work in the shower?
Speaker: Are you late to work because you're going over work problems in the shower?
Speaker: Because if you are, that's the thing I want to fix first, right?
Speaker: I want to get through that.
Speaker: And it's hard.
Speaker: We talk about work-life balance, you know, and, and what that means for most people is, oh, I don't want my phone to ring after hours.
Speaker: But how much time do we spend in our own head after hours?
Speaker: driving ourselves crazy with this nerve, these neurotic thoughts.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And how do we build that firewall?
Speaker: I'm going to tell you as when we talk about what it takes to lead that that's a core skill, man.
Speaker: Like if, if you can't put up that firewall and say, Hey, there's no emergency right now.
Speaker: I'm not getting paid overtime to obsess over this.
Speaker: We'll deal with it tomorrow morning.
Speaker: That, that is a huge leadership skill to develop.
Speaker: So you brought two things like one, what works for you and we can swap stories of what works for that firewall.
Speaker: The other one is, I think that's why coaching ICF, International Coaching Federation, which certifies a lot of the coaches around the world and has the standards well over 40,000 coaches now globally.
Speaker: Coaching is a huge industry in and of itself, leadership, organizational life, all the things.
Speaker: It's because of what you just said.
Speaker: We can waste so much time in our head.
Speaker: And if we're going to change or improve, we're going to have to take an action.
Speaker: And so when you have a coach or a thinking partner, paid or not paid, you can ask someone to be your thinking partner.
Speaker: It is, do they know, do they know my value?
Speaker: Do they know what I'm trying to accomplish?
Speaker: Are they good at asking questions?
Speaker: Do they actively listen?
Speaker: Do I leave with clarity and a step and not a big step, like a small step.
Speaker: And so I think that's where coaching comes in.
Speaker: And I, you know, I have a coach, I have a counselor, I have a group.
Speaker: I mean, I got, I got all the things I'm recommending people have.
Speaker: Some are paid, some are not paid and I need them.
Speaker: And I,
Speaker: The other thing is the interpersonal side of self-coaching or modifying or regulating that noise, like creating that firewall.
Speaker: For me, it's like I need a lot of tools.
Speaker: So mindfulness meditation has been a tool I practiced for over, it's almost 10 years now.
Speaker: from time to time.
Speaker: It's not always, but it's definitely a tool.
Speaker: Like I said, coaches, support group, friend.
Speaker: When I say friend, though, it's important it's the friend for me that they call you on your BS and they don't
Speaker: They don't let you backslide, if you will, on your values, like who you are.
Speaker: And we all need something different for that.
Speaker: Exercise that is not strenuous.
Speaker: Like I'm not trying to beat myself up with.
Speaker: Because for me, when I have a loss or something that didn't go well, which is definitely weekly in business,
Speaker: It hits hard.
Speaker: I feel big feelings.
Speaker: I feel sad.
Speaker: I feel a loss, which is really quick and easy to get into my head, into really self-abusive language, self-talk,
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: Why does it happen?
Speaker: It happens for most achievers, people that have been striving to achieve.
Speaker: They've figured out how to lead themselves, a team, something.
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: For most of them, it worked because they came out of a dominant culture that said, you're not good enough, get better.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And so we created this inner monologue.
Speaker: Well, we can't just get rid of it.
Speaker: I can't just take a magic pill.
Speaker: I mean, I could if I could take enough pills, but then it would numb me out.
Speaker: I wouldn't be good at anything else.
Speaker: But it's like, I, there's part of that, that that's going to be on the bus.
Speaker: It's going to be with me.
Speaker: It's going to be with any achiever, anyone who's driving to improve and grow.
Speaker: What's important is it's not driving the bus.
Speaker: Or maybe like what you're saying, it's important we recognize, hey, who needs to be in this conversation I'm having in my head to solve the problem?
Speaker: When can I have that conversation?
Speaker: Oh, tomorrow at 10.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Brain, tomorrow at 10, bring all this back up.
Speaker: Having those strategies is key to mental strength and mental stamina and just the ability to keep going because it's really hard to keep going if you're a leader.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And one of the things that there's a couple of things that I've heard recently over and over and over again are self-reflection.
Speaker: As you, as you move up as a leader, one of the big things is isolation.
Speaker: People don't think that they either have peers or they have anybody that can understand the situation they're in.
Speaker: You mentioned earlier shame.
Speaker: That's S-H-A-M-E.
Speaker: That's a five letter word, but yeah.
Speaker: But I did, you know, it is.
Speaker: We're just going to we're just going to cut the E off.
Speaker: It's going to be shame, something like that.
Speaker: But I posted something on LinkedIn the other day.
Speaker: I said, shame has no place at work.
Speaker: And so huge when you understand that shame, that that feeling there's a difference.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So there's like.
Speaker: Ambition plus shame is just a recipe for a mental institution.
Speaker: But if you pull that shame out of there and you realize that, yes, we are our job, and the more passionate we are, the more we are our job, but at the end of the day, you're not your job.
Speaker: You might also be a parent, a spouse, you might be a best friend, you might be a father or child or whatever direction you want to take that.
Speaker: And I've seen a lot of people that it goes one way or the other.
Speaker: There's people that internalize all that shame and they self-destruct.
Speaker: And then there's some people that try to overcompensate and they allow their passion plus their shame plus their emotion to just destroy their career.
Speaker: I was coaching one person and I told him, I said, look, if you just stop caring for a week, you'll be fine.
Speaker: Like you're doing a good enough job.
Speaker: You're doing a good, good enough job.
Speaker: I want you to come to work and just stop caring so dang much, but it's hard because this is, this is people's identity, especially as you become a leader.
Speaker: You have this identity that I'm a leader and I'm helping people and look how great I am.
Speaker: I'm out in front marching, whatever it is.
Speaker: And people really get wrapped up in that.
Speaker: and the shame and all that stuff.
Speaker: I think it's powerful that you name that.
Speaker: Like, just, I think naming what is true, which is, shame can take us down this, like, trying to solve a problem.
Speaker: We find out something about ourselves that we can work on.
Speaker: And then if shame takes hold, like something's wrong, I'm a problem, there's no improvement.
Speaker: There's no ability to say, hey, someone help me.
Speaker: Because now you are that problem.
Speaker: You said the words, I'm a problem.
Speaker: Well, now you've taken that behavior and you've made it your identity.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So your ability to name as a leader to this person, like, hey, if you stop caring for a week, it would all be... It sounded like, for example, what you were sharing is their obsessive thought, their fixation was consuming, and then they were underperforming, and they were being...
Speaker: Drowned by it.
Speaker: And that's true.
Speaker: I mean, that performance, we think, well, there's the goal, you got the skill, go do it.
Speaker: And we, going back to this whole human side of business, we have to address the whole person.
Speaker: We have to recognize like what we're working with here are people.
Speaker: And when we can listen and understand and offer challenge, like you did there, constructive challenge, and maybe they don't take you up on the offer and maybe they do self-destruct.
Speaker: They need to be repurposed or exited.
Speaker: Like it's hard.
Speaker: I mean, that's, that's a hard work of a leader is exiting people.
Speaker: That's a whole other topic, I'm sure, but especially self-reflective leaders, because we know we, we aren't perfect by any means.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, that's, that's, that's another, another theme I've heard a lot lately about self-reflection.
Speaker: And I think as you move up in an organization, you have to be tuned in.
Speaker: You have to know, know yourself, but especially as you move up.
Speaker: And a thing that I've heard recently is there's self-reflection.
Speaker: There's looking at yourself, understanding your, your good sides and your bad sides at all.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: All that will get you to the middle.
Speaker: But then there's all the stuff that's behind you that you can't see.
Speaker: And that's really the scary thing.
Speaker: And I think this is a good segue to talk about coaching.
Speaker: What are ways that you've seen people uncover the unseen self-reflective type stuff, their gotchas?
Speaker: And how would a coach play into that?
Speaker: And when should somebody bring on a coach?
Speaker: Yeah, so there's a lot of reasons to bring on a coach.
Speaker: Often, so I'll just speak from our experience, executive or an ownership group are bringing on us as coaches because there's high potential talent.
Speaker: They want a group of people to grow in some of their skills.
Speaker: Like we've talked about emotional intelligence, communication, conflict resolution, trust, something.
Speaker: So that they can be at a higher level of leadership, thinking more strategically, solving higher level problems, longer term, all this kind of stuff, but they have to do it together.
Speaker: So they move from a unit to a bigger team.
Speaker: So that's a reason to say, okay, there is this bigger role I want.
Speaker: There are some goals set for me.
Speaker: I'm going to work with a coach.
Speaker: They're going to help me get that's a very good reason.
Speaker: Sometimes we are brought in, I particularly, around long-term employees, really good team players that, and I'll just say it this way because it's true, these are mostly men in industries where it was okay to be a certain way.
Speaker: it's not okay to be that way anymore.
Speaker: And there were very clearly told that.
Speaker: And they decided, you know what?
Speaker: I, if I can change, I want to change.
Speaker: I say that sincerely.
Speaker: Cause I think it's easy to write off things.
Speaker: white men who have been jerks in the workplace.
Speaker: And the fact is they should be held to account.
Speaker: And also just speaking candidly from my experience, when they're spoken the truth and there's a new standard set by the leadership and by the organization of this is how we used to let people behave this way around here.
Speaker: And we don't anymore.
Speaker: You have to change.
Speaker: Do you want to?
Speaker: I have witnessed real change happen on that level.
Speaker: And it's, it's, I mean, for the multi-billion dollar companies that I've helped, like walk alongside their leaders who 10x their things and done some pretty remarkable from the financial side.
Speaker: Some of the most rewarding are these men in their middle age saying, you know what?
Speaker: My spouse says this about me.
Speaker: My children say this about me.
Speaker: My employees say this about me now.
Speaker: My life's better.
Speaker: I'm a better person.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I get a lot of value out of that.
Speaker: And I think part of it is the reason they bring on a coach or the reason I'm effective in that coaching relationship.
Speaker: It goes back to what we talked about earlier.
Speaker: I actually feel empathy where I think some people would be like, and I don't, and I think that's okay.
Speaker: If you'd be like, Hey, that's not a good coach fit for me.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Like writing people off.
Speaker: You know, you think about it from a psychological standpoint.
Speaker: And I think about, I was either going to become an IT person, a doctor, or a psychologist.
Speaker: So I'm like a strange mix of human.
Speaker: And I still... So you tick two of those boxes, IT and like, I'll just go.
Speaker: I leave most of my doctoring to Google.
Speaker: You think about some of these psychological things and you think about things like childhood neglect.
Speaker: You think about all these other issues of abuse and things like that.
Speaker: And when we're talking about coaching, these are the things that are in the rear view mirror.
Speaker: These are the things that are hiding in people's shadows.
Speaker: And I think sometimes it does take an outside view, somebody who's brave enough to confront it in a positive way to really highlight these things.
Speaker: There's cycles of abuse in families that go back generations.
Speaker: These people may have never even experienced this type of emotional intelligence and compassion before.
Speaker: at an executive level in a corporation.
Speaker: And now there's this coach coming in that's talking about feelings and what the heck do I do about this?
Speaker: And next thing you know, there's a 40 year old man crying in a corner and making progress, hopefully.
Speaker: No, exactly.
Speaker: And what you're saying, so if you think about, okay, and this isn't a mathematical equation, like do this and then this, but what you said, if you are socialized and trained in a dominant culture,
Speaker: where misogyny and patriarchy works for you.
Speaker: I don't go in as a coach and say, okay, look, we're going to analyze misogyny and patriarchy and how to change that behavior.
Speaker: I'm like, we're looking at the very specific act that they're saying.
Speaker: They're saying, I want to change.
Speaker: I know my filter stinks and it's caught and improved.
Speaker: All right, well, let's talk about the space between stimulus and response.
Speaker: They see this thing not get done that was supposed to get done.
Speaker: They think this and then they say this
Speaker: potentially if the person would feel that way, it would be abusive.
Speaker: Like, okay.
Speaker: And there was a generation that was okay with that.
Speaker: There wasn't a certain type of person that was okay with it.
Speaker: There aren't many of those people left.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So the whole workforce, the whole idea of leader, and then the other one is that you have to be the answer person.
Speaker: You got to have all the answers.
Speaker: Well, that literally disengages people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Disempowers them versus more of a facilitative leader.
Speaker: So it's like coaching around, how are you facilitating these meetings?
Speaker: Because the concern is, well, they're not good at working across teams.
Speaker: The other one I wanted to say is anyone who is basically entrepreneurial, like you could have a gig, you could be in IT somewhere.
Speaker: You could also have a side hustle.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: And you want to start to maybe expand your side hustle or you want to get more out of the things you're doing.
Speaker: I think a good reason to get a coach is because you've kind of hit an inflection point or you're preparing for a transition or a change in your life.
Speaker: It could be a career.
Speaker: It could be, it could be life.
Speaker: I stumble into a lot of transitional coaching where there's a very specific transition that ends up happening in a company, outside of a company, with a business.
Speaker: Because what we don't think about is an actual ending has acquired a significant amount of preparation.
Speaker: Or the only reason that ending happened is because of a death, a disaster, a disability, some sort of tragic thing or trauma thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I wanted to say one more thing about what you said.
Speaker: You said it's too good.
Speaker: Systems of abuse, prolonged trauma.
Speaker: When we have been the one, the perpetrator of trauma or just dysfunctional leadership, we've hurt ourselves.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We hurt ourselves.
Speaker: And so some of what you said, like as a coach, I'm a very specific type of coach.
Speaker: When I see the systems of dysfunction or in some cases abuse, and I'll name it that way if I think of that, there is a sense of compassion.
Speaker: Like, what happened to you that that's okay?
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: I don't see horns in a tail.
Speaker: Like, what happened, ma'am?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What went on?
Speaker: And to be able to sit, to have, I don't know if you've ever had this experience in your life, but you, you reveal the stuff that really got you stuck or in a place of dysfunction.
Speaker: And then, and someone actually listened, not in a complicit way.
Speaker: Like, and that's okay.
Speaker: Just, you know, it's okay.
Speaker: What do you want to, what do you want to do with that?
Speaker: Where do you want to go?
Speaker: What do you need?
Speaker: And it's like, this person didn't run out of the room.
Speaker: It's a form of intervention.
Speaker: Then they take a step and change, and it's okay.
Speaker: They're changing.
Speaker: They're improving.
Speaker: And then they're getting reinforced by their employees, by their managers, by the boss, by the ownership group, by their spouse.
Speaker: And it's like, well, that's reward.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We don't want to be gross, dysfunctional humans.
Speaker: We get that way because we participate in systems where
Speaker: We're allowed to or we're benefiting and we're blind.
Speaker: Or we think that's the expectation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, we're going into a large corporate environment.
Speaker: We think, OK, I have to I have to armor up.
Speaker: I can't let myself look vulnerable.
Speaker: I can't let my team look like they don't have their stuff together because if the wrong perception is had, I'll be out.
Speaker: Which is often, there's validity to what you just said.
Speaker: So it really does depend.
Speaker: Yeah, I think what was interesting, you said a little while back there, was about the other side of shame.
Speaker: There's the I'm not good enough shame, which is how am I performing?
Speaker: But then in terms of leading somebody else, if you take that shortcut, and there are shortcuts to change that we should and shouldn't take, right?
Speaker: Sometimes, and again, going back to parenting, I know if I just yell, the kid's going to listen.
Speaker: But I know when I yell, it's going to
Speaker: we're going to invoke a little bit of trauma with these leaders that are taking these shortcuts.
Speaker: You might get that result once, but later that afternoon, that person's on indeed looking for their next job, or they're just dealing with the abuse and taking it out on their family.
Speaker: But I think the people that quite quitting and not giving you, which is huge, that could be another hour for us.
Speaker: But I do think that the people that are taking these shortcuts are,
Speaker: the people that are perpetuating this malignancy in organizations, there's still an amount of shame that they're internally carrying because of how they're treating other people.
Speaker: I think most people know what they're doing isn't right on some level, but they just don't know another way.
Speaker: I love what you're saying.
Speaker: I think there needs to be more conversation and people, because I'm sure there are a lot of coaches and leaders and organizations doing what we're talking about, shining a light on this and creating the other ways, because I'll just, I think this is a emergence of a human responding.
Speaker: More like an emergency.
Speaker: Yeah, I do.
Speaker: I just think people are finally like, okay, because I can obviously speak truth for myself.
Speaker: I do wake up at least weekly.
Speaker: Oh, every week, probably going, oh, my word.
Speaker: What I'm betting on might not work in this game we're playing, this capitalistic kind of business game.
Speaker: Like, it may not work longer.
Speaker: I really hope it does.
Speaker: I really hope what we're building, it will have to be rebranded, obviously, because it's Scott Hackman Ventures.
Speaker: But I have an acronym for that.
Speaker: But you're such a good guy, Scott.
Speaker: We can keep it...
Speaker: No, Sustained Human Ventures.
Speaker: Oh, there you go.
Speaker: Sustained Human Ventures, SHV.
Speaker: But I really, I do believe what we're building because of what we're doing in industries like large manufacturing, engineering, sciences, because how we're coming alongside these organizations going through this kind of change and transition and the results they're producing, I believe in the processes and I would love to
Speaker: if this was carried on through the team that's creating it, like after I'm gone, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, I do.
Speaker: I'm finally doing something for the first time in my life.
Speaker: I am doing something.
Speaker: I genuinely would like to continue to evolve.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: When I'm done.
Speaker: It's the first time in my life.
Speaker: Someone asked me recently.
Speaker: Because if you look at my CV or my career journey, you're like, this guy does different things every five years.
Speaker: And I'm at five years of Scott Hagman Adventures.
Speaker: It's just, this is the one that
Speaker: Well, you've done different things, but the constant theme is this exploration of growth, helping people, trying to root out trauma.
Speaker: That's such a special talent.
Speaker: We've talked a little bit about your team.
Speaker: Talk to me about the people on your team now.
Speaker: You've gone from one person to, I think, is it five people now?
Speaker: Yeah, it's five, including my wife.
Speaker: So it would make the fifth.
Speaker: So they we design custom leadership development and training programs would be the simplest way.
Speaker: So everyone has a unique every new person joins our team makes it better.
Speaker: So executive experience, like tenure and executive experience around strategy, board development, board governance, that's Brant Lingle.
Speaker: And then Alicia Hofer brings to us a graduate in organizational psychology and really an ability to design evaluation and assessment that actually gives you data and
Speaker: to build your development programs, your change initiatives, job description, different things like that.
Speaker: You would have fun talking to her around job description.
Speaker: She has a lot to say around that.
Speaker: And then my wife, Andrea,
Speaker: She's all, my wife has always been, we've always partnered in business.
Speaker: So we've been partners in business for over 15 years in three different businesses.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: This is our third, third one.
Speaker: She is the reason this is a business.
Speaker: So if you think CFO, HR, business planning, that's Andrea Hackman.
Speaker: She also has spent the last two years, she was the CEO of our previous business.
Speaker: We started One Village Coffee before we sold it.
Speaker: And she spent the last two years working through a program in body and energy healing.
Speaker: So because of her journey through leadership, really, she would be an amazing person to interview.
Speaker: She found a lot.
Speaker: She found amazing mentor in this kind of body wellness and healing.
Speaker: So she went through a year long process and she is now integrated it into business code.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: So that's our team.
Speaker: And we work with, we're engaged actively usually with about 15 companies.
Speaker: And in a year, we'll work with about 30 to 35 companies.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: So talk to me, I've personally benefited from your brand new venture, your leadership group.
Speaker: Talk to me a little bit about what you guys are doing there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, well, Matt, ever since working with your company, I love to, one of the things I
Speaker: You said it.
Speaker: You actually said it.
Speaker: You said leaders need peer groups.
Speaker: Leaders need to know they're not alone.
Speaker: Leaders need a place where they can go and talk about relevant topics and what it means to them.
Speaker: So monthly, we host a webinar, which is really more of a peer group for professionals.
Speaker: It's usually 15 to 30 professionals.
Speaker: There's been some consistent leaders showing up like you are one of them.
Speaker: And then one of our team members co-facilitates it, or we bring in like a guest speaker slash facilitator.
Speaker: And it really is for open leaders.
Speaker: And when I say an open leader, it's someone who has an open mind, open heart, and wants to continue to learn and grow.
Speaker: They recognize the need for their own emotional development and their emotional intelligence, but also their resilience, their adaptability.
Speaker: So part of the connecting with one another is the ability to say like,
Speaker: oh, not alone.
Speaker: We're in this together.
Speaker: I can step outside of my day to day for an hour, once a month, talk about conflict, talk about goals, talk about trust, talk about whatever the topic might be, and then leave with an idea or leave feeling like I contributed because part of learning is teaching.
Speaker: And so the people that come have a lot to offer.
Speaker: There's value in both sides of the coin.
Speaker: If you're somebody who's established, that's figured some of this stuff out,
Speaker: It's sort of like that leader who's got that internal shame.
Speaker: This is the penance.
Speaker: Once you figure it out, you got to engage in paying it forward and identifying people that need some of this and giving it to them and helping them.
Speaker: It really is so huge.
Speaker: I've always been a networker, but I think in terms of what you need to lead in the IT industry, a good strong network of people that you can lean on.
Speaker: You can't know everything.
Speaker: So having at least one person to bounce ideas off of for security, for development, you know, all these different areas.
Speaker: And then you almost need that group therapy environment where you can engage with other leaders.
Speaker: And I hate to call it therapy and leadership, but let's be honest, it is what it is, right?
Speaker: But that group that you can share and all of a sudden you go to this group and you realize, hey, this struggle that I'm having, everybody else in the room has had the same thing.
Speaker: And here's two people who have conquered that.
Speaker: Well, and it's because it's reflection and support.
Speaker: I would just replace therapy with reflection and support.
Speaker: And that because what do you need?
Speaker: You need to take a next step.
Speaker: We need courage to be in uncertainty, to be in ambiguity and to take a next step.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's why it helps some people, a lot of people to do that.
Speaker: What sorts of things do you want to plug?
Speaker: What are you working on right now?
Speaker: What's out there?
Speaker: I'm working on a book.
Speaker: The book is around the philosophy or the ideas of open leadership and being an open leader.
Speaker: At some point, I may reach out to you because one of the things we want to do is have open leader interviews.
Speaker: So we're thinking of...
Speaker: building a, like a podcast companion piece to the, because the reason for it is like, we go through these coaching programs, we go through these coaching processes and we want really kind of a leap behind, like, Hey, keep doing this work on your own.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Your stories of open leaders.
Speaker: Here are the reflection questions you can apply to your role.
Speaker: I've never heard the term open leadership before.
Speaker: But when you mentioned it, it just came with this air of knowledge and wisdom and experience.
Speaker: And I'm so glad that that's what your book is about.
Speaker: Like that's exciting to me.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I'm like, you are going to get asked to be interviewed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Whatever you need me to do, I owe you one after this, but you've got to let me know when it comes out.
Speaker: If I can promote that for you, I will.
Speaker: I'll be your biggest fan.
Speaker: So obviously, if people want to get in touch with you, scotthackman.com.
Speaker: Yeah, and you can email me.
Speaker: at scott at scotthackman.com.
Speaker: My LinkedIn, I use LinkedIn quite a bit.
Speaker: So my LinkedIn, Instagram a little bit and yeah, love to connect with people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And a great resource, scotthackman.com slash blog.
Speaker: I was on there
Speaker: educating myself when I was doing research for the show, but there's a lot of really good articles on there.
Speaker: I think anybody listening to this, scotthatman.com slash blog, check it out.
Speaker: Scott, it's been a real pleasure.
Speaker: Thank you so much for all this time.
Speaker: You're welcome.
Speaker: Thank you, Matt.
Speaker: Please reach out to us via email and social media.
Speaker: Your questions and ideas are important, and we'd love to give you a seat at the virtual table.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: The content presented in this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional or legal advice.
Speaker: The host and guests do not guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or reliability of any information or views presented in this podcast.
Speaker: Any opinions expressed are solely those of individual speakers and do not represent the views or opinions of their respective employers or organizations.
Speaker: Listeners should proceed at their own risk and seek professional advice as needed.
