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More Spies
257 Plays1 year ago
This week, Brook and Sarah revisit spy fiction and discuss spy characters other than those created by Ian Flemming and John le Carré.
Discussed in order
Ian Flemming
John le Carré
Christopher Marlowe
Kit Marlowe Series (2011-2020) MJ Trow
The Rose Code (2021) Kate Quinn
The Alice Network (2017) Kate Quinn
Foul Lady Fortune (2022) Chloe Gong
The Librarian Spy: A Novel of World War II (2022) Madeline Martin
The Book Spy (2023) Alan Hlad
Terminal List (2018) Jack Carr
Truly Deadly (2016) Rob Aspinall
Alex Rider series (2000-2020) Anthony Horowitz
Austin Powers (1997) New Line Cinema
Phineas and Ferb (2007-2015) Disney
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Music: Signs To Nowhere by Shane Ivers – www.silvermansound.com
Transcript
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Mystery Genre
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke. And we both love mystery. Hi Brooke. Hi Sarah. It's our favorite time of the week again. I know this is honestly is my favorite day and my favorite hour of the week is the hour that you and I spend together talking about mystery.
Exploring Spy Fiction Classics
00:00:34
Speaker
I know it's so much fun. And today we have a super fun topic. Do you want to introduce everyone to our topic today, Sarah?
00:00:41
Speaker
Absolutely. So, last year, towards the end of our first set of episodes, we spoke about spy fiction. And most of the episode, we talked about Ian Fleming and John le Carre and the characters that they created. They are, of course, masters of the spy fiction genre. But today, we wanted to talk about some other spies. And I have to say, Brooke, I had so much fun with this.
00:01:07
Speaker
So I have a long list of other spies and other spy fiction authors, and it was hard to choose who to talk about.
Espionage in Elizabethan Era
00:01:17
Speaker
But I will start with Christopher or Kit Marlow. So we mentioned him actually in the introduction of our first spy episode because he was an Elizabethan playwright and was known to be part of a spy network maintained by Francis Walsingham.
00:01:34
Speaker
There's actually a series of novels about him written by MJ Trowe that fits into several categories. He's an example of an author as a sleuth, a celebrity sleuth, as well as historical fiction and spy fiction. And I think he's fascinating for several reasons, in part because there's a lot of mystery around his death and whether it was the result of real spy work that he was doing.
Women in Spy Fiction
00:02:02
Speaker
We also talked a little bit about spy fiction with a focus on women. And I mentioned Kate Quinn, who authored The Rose Code and The Alice Network. And I did a quick search on Google and typed in women spy fiction. And there are so many examples, largely historical mysteries. It's a pretty strong signal that these are going to be
00:02:29
Speaker
women spy fiction novels because of the cover. So it's often a woman from behind, maybe looking off to the side or looking, you know, we can't see her face. It's a pretty strong signal that this will be something about a woman and spy typically in the Second World War.
00:02:51
Speaker
But I did recently read and really enjoyed Foul Lady Fortune by Chloe Gong, which is a historical mystery, features a woman who is very much engaging in spy espionage activities. There's also a supernatural element to these books. And this is the first of, I believe she's planned two books in this series.
00:03:19
Speaker
She's written another series that there's some characters. I think this is a spinoff from her earlier series and I haven't read any of those other books. But in the author's note, she does say, I encourage you to read the other books first before you read this one if you don't want any spoilers. But I will be reading them in the wrong order because I will definitely be reading those others.
Spectrum and Subgenres of Spy Fiction
00:03:40
Speaker
But it was excellent, Brooke.
00:03:42
Speaker
You know, when we were talking about this episode, I said to you, you know, I just don't really read very much spy fiction. That's kind of your thing. You know, you've really dabbled in a lot of it. But then when you started naming off authors, I was like, oh, yeah, OK. Because I think, and this is, I think, a common situation.
00:04:04
Speaker
that you automatically gravitate towards in your mind, if you think about spies, the, you know, the Jack Ryan's and the Laker Ray characters and Ian Fleming stories. And I really had to dial it back and go, no, I really do. I love all the Bletchley circle.
00:04:22
Speaker
tales about the everyday people that became spies. I love the literary spy fiction that we see. There's the librarian spy and the book spy. I got to thinking, sometimes we miscategorize those and we just think of them as
00:04:46
Speaker
Maybe maybe thrillers I don't know but they really are spy fiction and then I I was thinking about it a little further and I wonder if we could kind of consider those rich versus the more action adventure spy books as cozy spy novels.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And I was kind of thinking about this sort of subgenre being on a spectrum. And I will refer to Likare and Ian Fleming as kind of
00:05:21
Speaker
either end of that spectrum. So Le Carre I think is more of, like you say, the cozy spy mystery is. And then Ian Fleming is the more action spy in the subgenre. And like with mystery, generally, there's a lot of variation between those two points.
00:05:44
Speaker
Like Jack Ryan, I would position closer to Bond or Bourne in terms of being much more action-oriented. Yeah, it's a really great observation.
00:05:59
Speaker
I also liked that in your entry, you talked about the way that there are various sub-genres within the sub-genre. You get the action adventure, like we just said. There's usually political elements. Many of these are historical. So if you're into historicals, you can grab one of those and even sci-fi. Absolutely. And I've been thinking a little bit about what makes the genre so appealing.
00:06:28
Speaker
I wonder if it has something to do with how a lot of the stories and particularly, I think, you know, we're thinking about those cozier spy mysteries. But even to some extent, I think maybe some of the action ones, how a lot of the narrative mirrors reality. And so what I mean is that there are people whose job it is to gather intelligence. And obviously there are police detectives and it's their job to solve to solve crimes.
00:07:00
Speaker
With books in both detective and in spy fiction, I think some of them can feel a lot more plausible than some of those others that I still love, but others that fit under the mystery umbrella.
00:07:13
Speaker
A lot of the women's spy fiction is either based on actual characters or people who've been inspired by actual women who worked during the Second World War and worked at Bletchley or were used in The Resistance because they were not perceived to be threats.
00:07:38
Speaker
I think you're right.
Real Women Spies in History
00:07:39
Speaker
It makes it so accessible. I can't really put myself in the shoes of James Bond or that lifestyle, but I can definitely imagine what it would be like to just be this normal gal who happened to be good at crosswords and have a knock. By the way, I'm not good at crosswords, but I can use my imagination. But have that knock at the door.
00:08:07
Speaker
be like, hey, we need your level of expertise. You have this special skill. It's so appealing to hear that person's story. And I think that in our earlier episode, we discussed that spies ask big questions. They say, what am I here for? Who am I? There are some deep human condition questions that happen in spy fiction.
00:08:35
Speaker
And I think that we get that a lot in these women as spies because they are taken out of a very normal everyday lifestyle and they're put into this exciting world. Even though maybe they're sitting at a desk, they're literally changing the course of history.
00:08:56
Speaker
And then they go back to their everyday life, washing dishes, raising children, and are to never speak of that time in their life again. And so I think it opens up a lot of questions about is that fair, women's rights, women's roles, and not just women. Certainly there were men that worked at Bletchley as well. But a lot of these stories, I think, ask those
00:09:22
Speaker
questions about women in the war and the role that they played when they don't get to wear the medals on their chest. Yeah, that's really interesting, Brooke. And I think part of that is because of the secrets around the work that they were doing, right? And now enough time has elapsed that those secrets are coming out. It is a really interesting point because those secrets have been kept for so long.
Modern Spy Fiction and Authenticity
00:09:50
Speaker
But we think about more modern day spy fiction or some of those stories that are set more modern day, and it doesn't seem to be a secret, whatever it is that they're about. I'm thinking about Jack Carr's series that I think is now an Amazon series.
00:10:09
Speaker
Um, where, uh, and the first book is called terminal list. Um, and so I started listening to it. I haven't finished it, but in the first part of the book, it's actually an author's note from him talking about
00:10:25
Speaker
Um, he talks about the writing process and kind of how he got the books and eventually how he got the show produced. But what I found was really fascinating was he talks about the vetting process when he writes his books because he was actually, I believe he was a Navy SEAL that lends some authenticity to
00:10:44
Speaker
And we've talked about that in the past, about having someone writing about what they know. But in his author's note, he talks about how everything that he writes has to be vetted by this special government office in the US that ensures that he has not shared anything that would compromise actual people who are in the field, which is fascinating.
00:11:14
Speaker
Wow. Interesting. Yeah. And so that phenomenon continues where you need these people who worked in this, you know, MI6, MI5, whatever, they were to remain silent about their work, which makes perfect sense. And so in a sense, it's continuing. He has to be monitored to make sure he doesn't reveal something
00:11:39
Speaker
That's fascinating, Sarah. I really enjoyed that part. So even if you are not going to listen to or read the rest of the book, I recommend that first author's note section just to learn a little bit more about that.
Young Adult Spy Fiction
00:11:55
Speaker
I mentioned Foul Lady Fortune and there's the supernatural element in that. I read another book that had a supernatural element and it had a woman as spy theme as well, but it was set in modern day and it was YA spy fiction. So I'm talking about Truly Deadly by Rob Aspinall.
00:12:19
Speaker
And this is, like I said, a young woman is the main character and the premise is that she has had a heart transplant and the donor heart comes from a man who was a spy or certainly someone who was working in a spy-like capacity and it's not entirely
00:12:47
Speaker
clear who he is. Part of the book that I read was trying to figure out not only how does having this heart impact her and she all of a sudden has these spy fighting abilities and she can drive cars in high speed chases.
00:13:09
Speaker
skills that she didn't have as a regular teenage girl. And part of the book is trying to figure out, okay, well, who is this guy? And I think it's the first of a series, and I'll definitely check out some of the others because I liked this character and the premise, right? It's obviously not based in reality, but it was kind of fun.
00:13:31
Speaker
I love that. We see that need in even detection fiction to have a reason why this person is suddenly able to, as an amateur sleuth say, solve a crime. When you have paranormal reasons come in, it's sometimes really fun.
00:13:47
Speaker
I've never seen that it's a donor organ that suddenly gives them all these skills, but it's genius. I love that idea. And it almost seems plausible. Like you never know when you get someone else's DNA, what it could do for you. I love that. Yeah. No, no, I thought it was, I thought it was really clever.
00:14:06
Speaker
So just continuing on the YA theme, Anthony Horowitz has written a series about a young spy named Alex Ryder. And so much like the women that we were talking about before being used as spies because they were
00:14:26
Speaker
underestimated. The premise is very similar with this series, right? He's, I think, 14 when the series starts, and he's able to go into situations that adults wouldn't necessarily be able to go into
00:14:42
Speaker
And this series is a little Bond-like because he does get some gadgets as he goes off on his various adventures. But it's quite fun. And there is a television version that is on Amazon Prime by the same name, Alex Ryder. And it's lots of fun to watch.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds great. Anything that Horowitz does, I'm pretty much guaranteed that it's going to be great. And I have not read or watched it yet, but I imagine that it's sort of like a young bond. That's how the picture that I have in my mind is maybe like, you know, who he was when he was a teen. But I love that. And I also love the idea of
00:15:28
Speaker
Bringing in the next generation i think that's something that why a fiction does so well and is so important that weather we're talking about.
00:15:40
Speaker
spy thrillers or just an actual whodunit. I love the idea that we're bringing in the next generation and keeping it current for them so that they can find something in the genre to hold onto and to carry it into the future. Exactly. And I know there's a lot of adult readers, including me, of YA fiction. So it satisfies a lot of people, I think, to have those
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And it's another layer of what we were saying because any of those amateur doing something fantastic are such an accessible thing for a reader because we would love to have seen ourselves as a kid get maybe chosen for this mission or trained for this mission.
00:16:29
Speaker
So I think that's something that makes YA fiction so much fun. It's fun to harken back and to feel like what would have that been like to be a young person and live out some of those fantasies. So you know something is a big deal and hugely popular when it gets parodied.
Spy Parodies and Conclusion
00:16:47
Speaker
So, I think that we need to not forget to mention the spies such as Austin Powers, which is 100% James Bond parody, I think, all that 1960s flair. Yeah, those movies are great. And when you can poke fun at a genre like we've discussed before in different ways, it's just great fun. And then another
00:17:12
Speaker
spy parody is Perry the Platypus who is on Phineas and Ferb. This is a Disney cartoon series that was popular when my teenage daughter was younger. We were huge Phineas and Ferb fans in this household. It's actually a great
00:17:29
Speaker
show with a through storyline that's very heartwarming. But their pet platypus named Perry is actually a secret operative. And it's just like a hilarious little part of the family life cartoon. So I encourage you to check it out as another spy parody.
00:17:51
Speaker
I have never heard of that, Brooke, and I'm going to have to see if we can if we can find it because, you know, I have a young person in my household and I love exposing him to mystery. And I think he would he would probably enjoy that. Yeah, you're going to get a big kick out of it when you see the way that each episode is constructed and what Perry's doing behind the scenes. It's it's adorable. Cool. Thanks. Thanks for that.
00:18:21
Speaker
And thank you for all these great suggestions. You're definitely the member of our team that is more versed in spy thrillers and spy fiction. So thank you so much for getting us going on this conversation today.
00:18:39
Speaker
Well, thank you, Brooke. And I have to admit that until we did our first spy episode last year, I hadn't read that much spy fiction. But I've been finding myself choosing books in this subgenre more and more frequently. It's really something that I've come to love over the last year.
00:19:02
Speaker
That's great. I think that that's something that the podcast has done for both of us is that we're finding new little niches that we love and new bits of information to research. And it's just fantastic for me too. And we hope that you all enjoyed our episode today as well. And thank you for joining us on Clued In Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah. And we both love mystery.
00:19:27
Speaker
Clued in Mystery is produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen. Music is by Shane Ivers at silvermansound.com. Visit us online at cluedinmystery.com or social media at Clued in Mystery. If you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or telling your friends.