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Alexander technique with Michael Ashcroft
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What is it like to experience “open awareness”? What’s the difference between doing and non-doing? What is “thinking”?
Welcome to another episode of “Imagine an apple”.
In this episode, Vynn and Francis talk with Michael Ashcroft about what it is like to do Alexander Technique, an awareness-based skill which he teaches.
Twitter: @imagine_apple @SurenVynn @frabcus
Timestamps:
01:00 Michael’s introduction to Alexander Technique
03:00 The origins of Alexander Technique
05:32 Internal Awareness
05:40 Michael Imagines an Apple!
06:44 How does AT make people aware of their awareness?
08:01 Coming back to the world
09:15 Being in the world
11:06 Attention in the world
12:10 Flow states
14:25 Non-doing
17:39 Habitual responding and not responding
19:29 Actively not doing vs just not doing
20:28 Mind and body are one process—Bodymind
23:20 Inhibition
24:26 Practice
26:20 Feeling “it” for the first time
27:31 Letting go of control
28:42 Meditation and Alexander Technique
34:15 Exercises in Alexander Technique
37:34 Thinking
39:54 What do you mean by thinking?
41:52 Conceptual thinking and subconscious thinking
43:10 Conscious cognition and nonconscious cognition
44:20 Parallel processing
45:44 Thoughts, feelings, IFS parts
47:14 AT mode 24/7
50:30 Technology and contracted awareness
52:15 Wrapping up
54:28 Tips about Alexander Technique
55:52 Francis’ experience of AT
Links:
- South Bank Alexander Centre - school Michael first went to
- ”Unthought” - book by N Katherine Hayles
- Expanding Awareness - Michael’s Alexander Technique site
- Fundamentals of Alexander Technique - Michael’s beginner course
- Michael’s YouTube channel
- @m_ashcroft on Twitter
- Michael Ashcroft - personal website
Theme written, performed and recorded by @MJPiercello
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Michael Ashcroft and Alexander Technique
00:00:00
Speaker
um Because when you can maintain this a more direct level of consciousness, then you're more able to notice um all these kind of habitual patterns and these things that you're doing, things that you're that are affecting you without realizing that they're affecting you.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode Vin and Francis. Today we have on our show, Michael Ashcroft. who is known for his courses on Alexander Technique.
00:00:34
Speaker
So welcome to the show, Michael. Hello, thanks for having me. Francis, how are you doing? Yeah, good. I'm looking forward to this. I i used to do Alexander Technique a long time ago, about 20 years ago. um and But before in you I knew I was a fantastic, a very different period. So I'm interested to think about it in this new way.
00:00:55
Speaker
Fabulous, fabulous.
Michael's Journey from STEM to Alexander Technique
00:00:57
Speaker
So before I go on, Michael, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into Alexander Technique? Sure. So fairly unconventional way of getting into it actually. For most of my career, I was a STEM nerd.
00:01:10
Speaker
I did physics university. I spent 10 years doing energy innovation in the UK energy sector. And at the same time, in parallel to that, I've always had tremendously bad issues with my knees.
00:01:21
Speaker
So since I was like 11 years old, they would dislocate and Now at age 36, I have osteoarthritis in both my knees and my hips. So that's a whole thread of my life that has informed all of this.
00:01:33
Speaker
And around 25, I was having a really weird period of knee anxiety and i write about my health. And for some reason, the term Alexander Technique was in my head. I think I had singing lessons back at school and the teacher kind of mentioned it, but it then lay dormant there for another 10 years.
00:01:50
Speaker
And I looked at up, I got a book and and my colleague at work where I had this book said like, oh, there's a school around the corner for that. I walk past it every day. You should go check it out.
First Impressions of Alexander Technique
00:01:58
Speaker
And I did. it was next to my office and i was expecting to go in for something, like I said, that would help my knees. That would be some postural thing and it would, whatever.
00:02:10
Speaker
And I went for my first lesson and I realized that it was something else completely different. And I think my first lesson or second lesson, but I basically walked back to my my office in this state of profound, vivid, blissed out something or other that was like, okay, there's a lot more here than I thought there was.
00:02:28
Speaker
And as luck would have, it again, they were just starting run a teacher training. And i looking back, it was much cheaper to pay for the hourly rate for teacher training than it was for one-on-one lessons. So I joined the teacher training.
00:02:40
Speaker
And that's kind of how this happened. And every time I thought, well, this is a weird thing. Why am I still doing it? I had this small voice say, no, it's really important to keep going. And I just kept going until I became a teacher. So pretty unusual. Most people and who are teachers are not also, um they don't have this background. It's like they're normally kind of arts, performance, that kind of thing. So it's ah it's a weird perspective to have.
00:03:01
Speaker
That's fascinating. So you started out in physics and now you're teaching Alexander Technique. Can you tell a little bit more about like where ah you heard of Alexander Technique? Because I didn't come across Alexander Technique until I started seeing it on Twitter.
00:03:16
Speaker
And I don't have an Alexander Technique class ah just waiting around the the corner, but I'm presuming um that you live in London and this is somewhat more of a common occurrence for you to bump into.
00:03:31
Speaker
Yes, that's right. So I was first introduced to it um in that singing lesson back at school. I think my teacher, my singing teacher, just gone to some workshop and then she said, oh but let's let's try a thing called Alexander Technique. And looking back, it absolutely wasn't anything that
Applications and Marketing of Alexander Technique
00:03:45
Speaker
I recognize now, but it was enough to put the term in my head.
00:03:48
Speaker
um And other than that, I would never have encountered it in day to day life. It's the thing that's normally done in the world of performance and actors, musicians, ah some sports and that kind of thing.
00:04:00
Speaker
um I think increasingly it's going outside of that frame, but it's not something I would bump into in my day-to-day professional life. ah But it did happen to be in my head, fortunately, from from that singing class.
00:04:12
Speaker
and And on your point around, you know, you don't have any AT classes around you. It is a, so Alexander was actually Tasmanian from Australia, but most of the teachers, the kind of the culture is kind of Southern England, Southern UK. there's a lot of teachers around here.
00:04:26
Speaker
And then there are various like kind of um offshoots that in North America and elsewhere. But the the density of teachers in in my part of the world is probably the highest of anywhere, yeah.
00:04:38
Speaker
Fascinating. My research was for a friend who knew about singing as well, interestingly. And I had problems with asthma, was the health issue that made me try it. um So it's it's, yeah, interesting the marketing is similar.
00:04:50
Speaker
ah Yeah, exactly. All the marketing is around bodies, posture, movement, performance, that kind of thing. um There's actually a couple of different ah schools of thought and kind of lineages, almost, you could call it in the AT world.
00:05:03
Speaker
um And I know my teacher and I both gripe about this, that if you market it as as performance and posture and that kind of thing, you get more of that. People think it is exactly that.
00:05:13
Speaker
um But at the same time, you market what you can market easily, I think. and So kind of telling people about weird mindfulness stuff is more difficult than saying we can reduce your back pain or improve your singing, for example. So that's kind of how this this marketing angle emerges, I think.
00:05:28
Speaker
Right.
00:05:32
Speaker
So because you've mentioned posture and bodily awareness and the whole shtick of Imagine an Apple is about internal experiences and how that differs between people.
00:05:47
Speaker
um Before we explore all that inexperience bit, I have a little test for you, which is, um can you close your eyes and imagine an apple for us?
00:06:01
Speaker
Okay. Can you see that apple? And what does it look like? Could you describe it to us?
00:06:09
Speaker
OK, so I can see an apple. um It's existing in what I'd call imaginal space. So it's not ah like an image I see in front of me, but I can still see the apple. um And if I choose to give it more detail, I can.
00:06:24
Speaker
um So I can i can see it has a skin. I can see the stalk. I can see is it's red color, all that kind of stuff. But I also, at the same time, can't physically see it, if that makes sense. Yeah, completely.
00:06:37
Speaker
You sound like you have the same experience imagining that for that I do. um Cool. But it's not the same as an aphantaser. So let's go down to Alexander Technique.
Awareness and Habitual Patterns in Alexander Technique
00:06:48
Speaker
And the first question I have for you is, how does Alexander Technique guide people to become more aware of their inner internal sensations and habits?
00:06:59
Speaker
So, okay. One of the things that I think Alexander Technique trains very well is becoming aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. So kind of finding the gaps in awareness.
00:07:13
Speaker
And I define awareness strictly here as like the things that you are able to notice. So if you can't notice something, it's not in your awareness. And then as soon as you're able to notice something, it moves into your awareness.
00:07:26
Speaker
um So for example, um, If you're not able to notice that you're hunched over um and when you're like looking at your phone or or typing or something, then you're not able to take action about it. It's just invisible to you as something's going on.
00:07:41
Speaker
So Alexander Technique, the way that I've trained in it, as at least, is very much a kind of coming back into the world to be able to notice more of these things. when I say coming back into the world, I want to just explain what I mean by that.
00:07:54
Speaker
it It seems that there's like a spectrum of, um I call it the spectrum of consciousness almost. It's how alive you are to this moment in each in each moment. And most of the time, most people are on a kind of autopilot.
00:08:08
Speaker
So, when their habitual ways of being are are triggered, and this happens all of the time, there's some something going on that takes people out of direct consciousness with the world.
00:08:20
Speaker
And then it might be various times you kind of wake up, you come back to the world. um You can think of this as like a... similar to daydreaming or or wandering off, zoning up zoning out, this kind of stuff, like you you realize that, oh, i've I've been somewhere and now I'm coming back to the world. and like Oh, where was I?
00:08:36
Speaker
I've just come back. And it's instructive to ask, know where was I, kind of genuinely, and where have I come back to and what is that quality like and what was happening when i when i went away and when I came back? um Because when you can maintain this ah more direct level of consciousness, then you're more able to notice um all these kind of habitual patterns and these things that you're doing, things that youre that are affecting you without realizing that they're affecting or things that you're doing.
00:09:01
Speaker
So AT lessons are very much about kind of catching you when you go off into some kind of unconsciousness in this way or the zoning out and bringing you back and kind of helping you to notice the dynamics of that experience ultimately.
00:09:17
Speaker
when When you say going off, Michael, do you mean what's the actual experience of that? like Because there's different categorizations of your experience, like having imagination, imagining things, having inner voices, thinking about concepts directly, and then also things like paying attention to senses or emotions.
00:09:38
Speaker
Are you saying, is is what you're saying when people lose the attention to the world, when they lose all of those? Or is it when one of those distracts them from... ah being in the world or something else?
00:09:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's more like being distracted from the world in some sense. So my model of this is that we have a kind of simulation of the world running in our heads. And sometimes we go off and live in the simulation rather than living in the world to some extent.
00:10:08
Speaker
So that example I gave of kind of zoning out and coming back, AT teachers are very good at kind of noticing the zoning out. And so the inner experience of zoning out might be if your attention drifts onto your own inner monologue, onto yeah yeah know your to-do list for the day, or this kind of stuff.
00:10:26
Speaker
There is a kind of dissociation that happens where you you go off into let's imaginal inner thinking, um something that isn't what's actually happening now.
00:10:37
Speaker
And that's where the AT teach when it's like, okay, eyes are glazing are over, there's lack of ah vitality and aliveness, um breathing might get shallow. All these things will happen when someone disengages from from contact with the world.
00:10:49
Speaker
And then that's where it can be quite confronting to have someone go like, hey, where have you gone? Come back. Which in other contexts, we don't tend to do that much. um And then you're like, oh, wow, I have to kind of travel some kind of distance, some experiential distance to come back and actually make contact again.
00:11:07
Speaker
And when you're making contact, what would your attention be on? Or what would you be aware of? So I, I put this as having your attention out in the world.
00:11:19
Speaker
And interestingly, out in the world can also include the body sensations and all the kind interoceptive physical stuff. So it doesn't mean, um outside physically, it just means not in the simulation, so to speak.
00:11:31
Speaker
So at this point, you're paying attention to yeah colors, textures, sounds, people, um vibes to some extent. um And noticing just as you want to kind of check out this is where the world gets more vivid, the world gets brighter, the world gets more interesting.
00:11:50
Speaker
um And yeah, it's it's really a case of um noticing when you're not so present, ultimately.
00:12:03
Speaker
Interesting. um Vin, I'm going to let you carry on with the train of questions. No, of course. Yes. Thank you for sharing that. um So you mentioned things like direct consciousness, checking out, zoning off, zoning in.
00:12:17
Speaker
This sounds very much like a flow state, doesn't it? ah What's the difference, if there are any?
00:12:28
Speaker
Good question. So think it depends on how you conceptualize flow state as well. I think most people, at least when I think of a flow state, I think of being involved in some kind of working. So you know you're losing yourself in in writing or creating and that kind of thing.
00:12:46
Speaker
And I think that's a good example of flow with a contracted awareness. And it's possible to have flow an expanded awareness. So when I say expanded awareness, I mean being available to notice more of the world around you.
00:12:59
Speaker
ah So flow state writing is kind of a small awareness um and fully engaged. And another version of that in the in the expanded version is like, playing a team sport, for example. Like if you're playing football on a big field, you're still very much in flow, I would hope if you're professional, um but you have that wide open awareness of the whole arena that you're engaged in.
00:13:22
Speaker
um And the flow state is very much, I think, there's something about the flow state where you you lose your sense of self and time, I understand, um which is not something that comes up in AT in
Agency and Choice in Alexander Technique
00:13:34
Speaker
the same way. We don't talk about that.
00:13:35
Speaker
so I'm when when I'm in the 80s state, so to speak, time seems to slow down, i have more spaciousness around time. But I don't wake up an hour later going like, oh, I've been such so much in flow that I've, I've forgotten the passage of time, look how much fun this was. Oh, you know, that was so great in that sense.
00:13:55
Speaker
But it's it's a different quality of, wow, I'm very present moment by moment. And I'm enjoying being fully present with it. And I'm very aware of time feeling spacious in that way.
00:14:06
Speaker
Honestly, I don't know enough about the neurodynamics of ah flow um to compare, but I think there are definitely some overlaps in what we're talking about here. um Particularly when you start getting at the spacious flow that I was pointing out as opposed to the contracted flow.
00:14:21
Speaker
And I think people don't talk enough about that expansive, spacious flow. Right. So one thing I'm really interested in um getting your opinion on is people's self-perception at play whenever they enter into AT mode, if we if I can call it that.
00:14:38
Speaker
Because one thing that you mentioned before is autopilot mode. And as far as I understand flow states, there is state where you enter into um autopilot mode, where you stand beside yourself almost, and you kind of like let your body do its thing, but you're not exactly, um what's the word?
00:15:03
Speaker
you're not people don't feel like they're doing the action just kind of unfolds by itself whereas this i think is where it kind of differs very sharply with at because in at you always have the option of ah doing or not doing am i understanding that correctly Yes, yeah, that's right. So eighty t is about bringing back a level of agency and choice in what you do. And it's probably worth talking about.
00:15:31
Speaker
There's almost two different kinds of autopilots that we're pointing out here. um And one of my my interests, if you like, is is when one word has two different meanings, but we don't catch that because we just use the one word.
00:15:42
Speaker
um So autopilot one, let's call it, is the fully is the more unconscious habitual mode. So um in lessons, my teacher might like throw a ball at the student um and then ask them not to catch it, for example, or when they inevitably drop it, most people will go into kind of, oh I'm so sorry, how clumsy of me, let me get the ball type type response.
00:16:08
Speaker
And even when you know asking the student, hey, don't catch the ball, or hey, don't worry about doing this performative, I'm so sorry thing, people find it very, very difficult not to.
00:16:19
Speaker
When there's a ball coming to you, you're you're so strongly conditioned to catch it. And when you drop it, we're so socially considered ah conditioned to, you know, make it seem like we know we're more skilled than we are, let's say. So that's a kind of it a kind of um low agency autopilot. And that's the thing I'm talking about when the consciousness kind of goes away a little bit. the The activity starts, consciousness goes down a bit, and then consciousness might come up again when the activity is finished and the subroutine, if you like, it has has completed.
00:16:49
Speaker
On the other side of the autopilot conversation is when you are you do watch yourself carry out an action in the way that you're describing with flow. So in that example, someone throws me a ball, they throw a ball at the student, and you simply decide to catch it, but you don't consciously do the activity, but you still watch that your hand goes exactly to the right place, for example.
00:17:11
Speaker
So in that sense, the part of you that gets involved in coordinating your body didn't get involved, but your body was still allowed to move.
00:17:24
Speaker
that's a differentff We could call that autopilot, but it's a very much an alive, high consciousness autopilot. We're just not getting involved in the natural way of things, if you like. And AT is much more about that second one, or getting out of the first one and allowing the second one.
00:17:39
Speaker
Right. Interesting. And would you say that there's an intermediate stage between the autopilot one and the autopilot two, where you're probably so aware, but not agentic and unable to affect your surroundings?
00:17:54
Speaker
So that's the journey of the the learning, I think, is, you know, once you... part of We come to learn that there are many, many ways that we interfere with our experience. And it's very, very difficult to simply not respond or to...
00:18:08
Speaker
to prevent the habitual way of being from activating, put it that way. So if i go back to that ball example, if I throw a ball at a student and say, don't catch this, one of the ways in which they might choose not to catch it is to tense up their body.
00:18:22
Speaker
It's to say, okay, I will actively do not catching the ball, right? And that's not the thing we're looking for. That's that's another habitual response in interfering with things.
00:18:34
Speaker
What we're looking for is a just not respond, just not like not catch it. And then from that place of just not catching it, where you're not activating your habitual responses, you can then choose to catch it, which sounds paradoxical.
00:18:48
Speaker
But what you're doing is preventing all the habitual things that aren't working for you, or kind of their conscious interventions, shall we say, And when once you've stripped all those away, a different system seems to come online that allows you to catch the ball or do whatever it might be in a much more elegant, poised you know way that we're looking for in AT.
00:19:09
Speaker
um But that journey doesn't just happen. but It can be occasioned to happen an in a lesson. um with the help of a teacher, but actually going off and doing that in your own life, that's the learning journey.
00:19:22
Speaker
And that's where you have to kind of practice and and come to become familiar with how the system works. Right. So instead of just not responding, people sometimes actively try not to respond.
00:19:36
Speaker
And that's a very different type of not responding to the the non-doing that is just not responding, if that makes sense. Well, it does to me.
00:19:46
Speaker
um But it's the difference between doing an action and doing nothing, if you like, are the same kind of category. So you're actively doing a thing, even if it's a nothing.
00:19:58
Speaker
On the other hand, there's a ah different category of thing, which is the absence of doing something. And that's what we're aiming for is that's the non-doing approach is I will not respond, but I will will not respond in a way that is not also doing something else.
00:20:11
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And then the the the weird paradox that people realize is that from within that space of not doing anything, the absence of doing, a doing can emerge in response to an in intention.
00:20:23
Speaker
But that's when you're kind looking at it and going like, oh I didn't do that. And yet I did. ah That experience comes up. So I think I can recognize this when it pertains to like bodily movement.
00:20:35
Speaker
And in your example, you used... catching a ball, which I think is a fabulous like exercise because i've I've seen people do it and and I can see the difference between someone one who actively tries not to catch the ball versus someone who's just sat there and truly in a state of absent being absent of action.
00:20:59
Speaker
but But with bodily stuff, it's a little bit more obvious. Do you think it translates with mental actions as well? So think about internal shifts like mental, emotional, or even sensory experiences that a person might have during a session.
Mind-Body Unity in Practice
00:21:16
Speaker
Are you able to detect this as a teacher or if this is something that even makes sense in the alex Alexander Technique framework? Yeah, and I think it does make sense because one of the the core ideas of Alexander's technique is called psychophysical unity, which states that the mind and body are one continuous process. There's no separation between body and mind.
00:21:41
Speaker
um So just to emphasize what that means, it doesn't mean that the body affects the mind or the mind affects the body. It's that they are the same thing. And thinking is a bodily act as much as moving is a thinking act.
00:21:54
Speaker
So given given that... I think a good example of of what you're pointing to is actually in the emotional world, um which again is a ah psychophysical thing. And let's say that I experience some trigger in the world and I get angry.
00:22:10
Speaker
like Anger is a very good example for this because it's such a strong and noticeable one for most people. So let's say that I notice my anger and I have certain habitual ways of responding to my anger. On the one hand,
00:22:22
Speaker
I don't like anger, I don't trust it, I think it's bad. At which point I will spin up all kinds of ways of managing that anger. In other traditions, you might call this a part, like in internal family systems, a part might spin up to kind of control my anger.
00:22:38
Speaker
Alizana technique doesn't use that kind of language, but it will notice like, hey, you're getting angry and then you're doing something. Can we help you to notice what you're doing and just put that down? ah Now this is, again, in other traditions, you you have more sophistication, I think, in this around like, oh, part to manage another part, for example, and AT doesn't have that so clearly.
00:22:56
Speaker
But the same stuff going on. you kind of you're You're picking up all of the various things that are happening to control experience um that aren't the same thing as just allowing what's going on, watching it, which is that but kind of non-responding thing, and then allowing something to to show up and emerge from that state of of allowing.
00:23:16
Speaker
um Allowing being another word for... um Well, before i before I kind of talk myself into a hole there, let me go back a little bit and say that the move of not responding to a stimulus is called inhibition in the Alizana technique.
00:23:31
Speaker
And I was about to say there that allowing inhibition are the same thing, but and now I'm not so sure. Sorry, I won't talk with something to something that whole, but in the and the context of the emotion, what you would do is you would inhibit your habitual, your your urged response to your anger or to a thought perhaps, and then kind of be in the unfamiliarity of that thing, of that space that you you find yourself in when you don't do the familiar habitual thing that you always do.
00:24:00
Speaker
because you find yourself in in the unknown at that point. If you always respond to anger by clamping down, it will feel very strange when you don't clamp down. um And the trick of AT is to stay in the unfamiliar and see if something else happens instead, rather than always doing the same thing, if that makes sense.
00:24:18
Speaker
o Yeah, it does. Cool. Francis, do you have any questions?
00:24:25
Speaker
um Yeah, ah this feeling you're describing when you when you get into that level of ah kind of see awareness level to what's happening here, I guess. Did you ever feel it naturally before you studied of Alexander Technique? Or would you say it's a skill that created something completely new in experience?
00:24:46
Speaker
I had definitely felt it before, ah if not so clearly as a thing of its own, um I think that can be described as an experience. So for example, if i um walk out into nature and look at a large landscape, I would have a sense of my thinking mind going away a little bit, feeling spacious. um Experiences of awe and wonder, I think, are in this direction as well, where various mental processes kind of drop away and you are just naturally in the world.
00:25:16
Speaker
I think what was so confronting for me in that lesson was how quickly it was brought about um in in a lesson that was so seemingly simple. know We played catch, we walked around a little bit, my my teacher caught me a few times when I when i wandered off and into those habitual spaces.
00:25:34
Speaker
And then I walked back to my office and the world was three dimensional in a way that it had never been before. um it The way I describe it was like, I had until that point, I had been looking at the world as if it were a ah painting on a two dimensional surface. So it had perspective in it, but it was still looking at a flat surface.
00:25:53
Speaker
And then after my lesson, i was like, oh, no, well, there's actually depth, though. like that There really is distance between those things um that are in the foreground, the background. And that's the only way I think i can describe it. um I've had that kind of thing before and it does naturally arise, but it's much more haphazard and less obvious, I would say, or I wouldn't attribute it to a thing that I i did. It's just a ah moment of grace appeared in my life and I can be grateful for it, but it wasn't as obvious in that way.
00:26:19
Speaker
Right. So what's it like for people to confront this habitual tension or resistance within their bodies for the first time? What is it like for you when you experienced it for the first time?
00:26:32
Speaker
Well, for me, I was entranced, I would say. um and think you need to understand the kind of person that I was, know, classic kind of ah geeky STEM nerd who was very disembodied, um over-intellectual, over-rationalized everything, and just generally awkward.
00:26:49
Speaker
That's, you know, my framing now. I think I'm being probably unfair to him. um But... The only saving grace I had that made me recognize this was I was interested in Zen and mindfulness beforehand. um So i could I could connect the dots.
00:27:02
Speaker
But the actual experiencing of it was like, wow, okay, there's this whole dimension of experience and ways of being that I was completely blind to apart from those kind of moments of grace as was describing to Francis.
00:27:15
Speaker
So I was naturally very open because I happened to have the moment where recognized this was important for me, that this was something that I definitely needed and would benefit from. i think how most people would respond to it depends on their psychology around control.
00:27:31
Speaker
So if you have this experience and you're someone who needs to be in control and be able to do it quickly and that kind of thing, then you can very quickly get in your own way because the whole point is to put that thing down in a sense.
00:27:48
Speaker
So there's all kinds of traps around trying to control the thing that can't itself be controlled. It can only be allowed to emerge. um And from there can be frustration and confusion and irritation because you are learning a new way of thinking and being at that point.
00:28:06
Speaker
For other people, um you might encounter this going like, well, so what? you know i they They don't get the the clarity of experience that shows that there's something there worth spending time on, or they don't recognize know the importance of it.
00:28:20
Speaker
um In which case, fair enough, you know, it's either that's because they already have enough of it, or because it's just not the right thing at the right time for them. um So, you know, it really comes down to the person who's encountering the technique and and what they,
00:28:34
Speaker
what their first experiences are like and um whether they can map that to being useful in their lives. One of the issues in coming for a lesson is that it's it's nice in the lesson and then actually applying that in real life, it somehow gets forgotten.
00:28:47
Speaker
um So like you have to learn how to integrate it into all of your life and practice it in activity, which is how AT is done. It's not it's not mindfulness i on a cushion meditation style, it's mindfulness in activity in day-to-day life, doing the dishes, going to work, talking to people, all that kind of of parenting.
00:29:03
Speaker
um And if you can learn to be that level of present to notice the, or the urges that you have to be habitual in those contexts, then then you're able to do the practice.
00:29:13
Speaker
But a lot of people that's just either too much work or not worth it, if you like. So yeah, it really comes down to the person.
00:29:20
Speaker
I wanted to ask you anyway about meditation. And since you just mentioned a couple of things around that, that you did, you knew about mindfulness and Zen a bit beforehand. And the and then yeah I think you've already answered my question by saying that in Alexander technique is about insight while you're going about your day.
00:29:40
Speaker
Whereas, say, if you take do Vipassana silent meditation retreat for ah weeks, then it's very much attention of like detail of sensory experience internally and detail of internal world.
00:29:53
Speaker
um Can you sort of, what what how do you describe the difference between quite deep meditation and Alexander Techniques? They're both about changing attention in some way. Yeah, it's a good point. um So to begin with, I'll say that my understanding of of how AT is practiced and the way it works is most aligned to what I've seen in, let's say in Zen, in the life practice side of things.
00:30:19
Speaker
So when you're you know going about your day-to-day life and you are fully there with what's happening, um that's the closest I've seen, I think, in and those traditions to what AT is about. um But when I do longer sits, and I do meditate occasionally, it' it's not a ah big part of my life right now, I find that the the Alexander Technique skills are very useful when I go in that domain of awareness, if you like. It's like when I meditate, I i do go deeper into a place And the skill that I applied from AT is kind of noticing a, let's call it a cognitive process or noticing a doing, we can call it a doing broadly, and knowing how to put down that doing without spinning up other doings, shall we say, um if that if that makes any kind of sense.
00:31:08
Speaker
So another word for this might be unfixating, um ah something that's um clinging onto something, because this is ultimately what I'm doing in AT. inactivity. It's like, oh, i'm I'm fixating on this dish when I'm washing it. I'm i'm putting way too much effort into it. I'm really like giving this dish far too much attention and that's causing secondary effects on my body and all that kind of stuff.
00:31:28
Speaker
How much of that energy, how much of that effort can I put down and come back into the world while still doing the dishes? It's the same thing when I go into time meditating. It's like, oh, I'm putting a lot of energy into sustaining this thought loop or into avoiding that emotion or into not looking at that pain, whatever it might be, or getting even more esoteric into maintaining subject object separation between myself and the world. Like that's ah a thing I'm doing in a sense.
00:31:54
Speaker
Once you can notice that you're doing it, which is again, the AT skills, like, Oh, I'm noticing I'm doing something cool. Now I've noticed I'm doing it. I can, I can put it down without adding any other noise to the system.
00:32:07
Speaker
So I think it really just comes down to like where you're looking um and how deep into the, I don't know the structure of the psyche you want to drop into, which I think is where more meditation gets into.
00:32:21
Speaker
That's, that's really interesting. So there, there is quite a strong relationship, but they're in slightly different, but related domains. but is I would say so. um Yeah. I think that people who, people who do AT will find that they can apply the skills well in,
00:32:39
Speaker
in meditation. So open awareness, open monitoring, like do nothing meditation. This is very much in the AT domain and vice versa. If you come to AT from those mindfulness meditation traditions, you'll go like, oh, okay, there's similar moves. I'm just, my eyes are open. i'm walking around if you like.
00:32:54
Speaker
um So you have to, you have to be able to be aware of all the things that you're in engaged in doing. Like, okay, I'm watching dishes. going for walk. I'm talking to someone.
00:33:05
Speaker
So you have that, level of engagement while also part of viewers keeping aware of, Hey, I just had an urge to say this thing. I just had an urge to whatever and kind of dynamically put these things down or not respond to them.
00:33:18
Speaker
But importantly, that you can still also do them if you want to. Um, so just to go back a little bit, when I said inhibition is to not respond to something, the really important thing is that you inhibit your habitual response to do something in such a way as you can still do that thing.
00:33:34
Speaker
Right. Um, So if I want to shout at someone because they're getting aggressive with me and I go, no, no, I'm going to inhibit, I'm going to not respond bitually to give myself bit of space between stimulus and response in that space is the, is the, you know, the new thing that can emerge.
00:33:49
Speaker
That very explicitly doesn't mean that I can't yell at them. It just means that when I do, I'll do so with full choice and it might come a different way than if I had, if I just on it habitually unconsciously. Right. So it's not about, it's not about self punishment or self restraint in that way. It's just about choice.
00:34:05
Speaker
but a choice that you can still do the thing anyway.
00:34:09
Speaker
Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you.
00:34:15
Speaker
So if Alexander Technique is mainly about non-doing, ah there any practiceized are there any practices or exercises that could help one deepen your sense of alignment or ease?
00:34:33
Speaker
There is one practice from Alexander's technique that seems most relevant here. I don't think that FM Alexander ever actually used it, but it's definitely arisen in the in the culture. It's called constructive rest, um which is basically where you lie on your back, um probably with a book under your head if you have a space within within your your head and the floor, and have your feet on the ground, so semi-supine.
Practices to Enhance Bodily Awareness
00:34:57
Speaker
And the point of this is that you stay alive to the world, so you know you keep your eyes open, you are alert, um But you start to notice all the ways in which you are perhaps unknowingly holding on to your body.
00:35:12
Speaker
So in that position, it's very easy to relax fully and kind of let the ground take you in many ways. But after a few minutes, you realize, oh, I'm ah i'm suddenly aware that I'm holding on to some tension in my leg for some reason.
00:35:24
Speaker
So, that you know, you go from being completely blind to these tensions to then realizing, oh, there is some tension in my leg. What's going on there? And then you suddenly realize, oh, I'm doing that in some way. i' I've just realized that I am doing the the action of tensing.
00:35:39
Speaker
And then you realize, oh, I can let go of that doing of tension. And then your leg relaxes. um So like it's like a meditation. But again, you're bodily aware, you're expansively aware, and you are not um falling asleep, if you like. that's why I say eyes open.
00:35:55
Speaker
So this is a practice that anyone could do 20 minutes a day, is just you know lie down and notice why you're tense and see if you can let it go. um Otherwise, things that I recommend are encouraging people to kind of go outside on walks in in nature if possible, but without any kind of input.
00:36:10
Speaker
So without headphones, without um podcast playing, and that kind of thing, without looking at the phone. And notice all the ways in which your attention is distracted by stuff that isn't happening right now, if you like.
00:36:26
Speaker
And this is, again, it's pure mindfulness, but it's very much an AT-flavored version of it. of like, okay, ah I'm listening to the bird sing, I can look at the trees, I can hear the wind, and then, oh, look, suddenly I'm not aware of any of that stuff because I'm worried about my conversation I'm having my boss in two hours.
00:36:43
Speaker
Like, can I notice that and just come back to the world? um Because when you do, you realize that it's still perfectly possible to think about that conversation with your boss in two hours while also being in the world.
00:36:54
Speaker
You don't have to check out and kind of go off and do thinking Thinking is a thing that you can integrate with all of life and, you going for your walk. So this, that practice is something that you can apply basically everywhere in life um is can you be with the thing that you're doing without going, as my teacher says, going thinky, um going off in somewhere and and losing sight of what you're doing.
00:37:16
Speaker
um And, yeah the trick is to find those activities where, where it's easy for you to notice what you're doing um because some of them are just too difficult. You know, um Talking to someone who triggers you very strongly, for example, is really not the best way to start.
00:37:31
Speaker
Going for walks in nature, much easier.
00:37:35
Speaker
So you you develop being able to simultaneously be aware of what's happening around you in nature, and then you also might be having inner speech thoughts about the conversation with your boss in two hours simultaneously?
00:37:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's as if they but exist in the same space. um So this would be easier to demonstrate if we were on camera, but let me describe it. um When I ask someone a question like, you of what did you have for breakfast this morning? Or, you know, what are you doing later?
00:38:03
Speaker
In one version, they might kind of this is like i say going thinky, they kind of scrunch their face up, they like they kind of, they look like they're thinking, in a sense. And this is the the going off somewhere experience of thinking.
00:38:18
Speaker
On the other side, you can ask the same question and nothing physical changes and you don't have a sense they've zoned out, but they're still thinking going on.
00:38:29
Speaker
It's just that you're kind of, you're waiting for the answer to arise in your experience rather than going looking for it in some sense. um So if I were to ask, you know, what was your breakfast this morning? I know it's early here.
00:38:41
Speaker
you could You know what you had and you can just allow the answer to appear in your and your awareness versus kind of go, oh, i need to go and think about it. um And when you kind of get the experience of,
00:38:52
Speaker
thinking happening whilst inexperienced and whilst being attached to the world, directly connected with the world, then you realize that you're you're doing way too much work most of the time to think.
00:39:04
Speaker
Now, sometimes they get a challenge here of like, well, don't you need to have that kind of contraction to do certain levels of cognitive effort, let's say coding, writing, you know, deep thinking.
00:39:15
Speaker
And, you know, I actually don't know. mean, we have lots of habitual patterns around thinking. um society tells us that we need to do or that like look like you're thinking type stuff and block the whole world out but I don't know and I think a lot of you know you look at some geniuses um you know in the sciences and they kind of go for long walks and suddenly they have epiphanies I think it's much more um there's much more of that than we think there is in thinking and we've picked up a lot of bad habits around looking like we're thinking basically they come from being at school and having a teacher yell at you because you don't look like you're trying hard enough that kind of thing
00:39:49
Speaker
and AT is about dropping or the looking like you're trying hard, if you like. Yeah, so thinking is one of those words, like you mentioned earlier, that has different meanings to different people.
00:40:00
Speaker
ah So specifically, some people assume it means imagining and some people assume it means using your inner voice. i think I think in some ways, I assume it is thinking subconsciously and not necessarily knowing the detail of what I'm thinking.
00:40:16
Speaker
like with forcefulness, but I'm wondering, what do you mean by thinking? I, and i my guess if I had, going to just guess what I think you mean and you can correct me.
00:40:26
Speaker
I think you mean like proactively pushing your thoughts almost like deliberately, like pushing the trail of villainous speech monologue or deliberately imagining specific things. Do you mean something like that?
00:40:40
Speaker
So I, I don't mean imaginal necessarily. um I think I'm i'm broadly gesturing at whatever we'd call cognition. So, you know, thinking might be, you know, doing sums or or, you know, doing a plan for work or something.
00:40:55
Speaker
um it It can involve cognition. I guess it can, ah in a monologue, guess it can involve imagination. um But you know what, as as you asked me, I think I need to go off and learn about a definition of thinking, because as you as you say it, um I realize that there are these different ways of thinking about it, and I'm not as clear as I could be on what I mean by that.
00:41:15
Speaker
Um, a lot of AT is about, um, reasoning through what you actually want to have happen. Um, so for example, um, knowing that you want to catch the ball is still reasoning out and knowing that you don't want to get involved is reasoning out.
00:41:31
Speaker
ah So understanding where you are and where you want to be, um is an important factor. So if that involves using in a monologue, then fine. If that involves using imagination, then fine. Um,
00:41:44
Speaker
all I'm pointing to is doing whatever that process is. And we can I can you know go off and research this better and come back with a better answer. But doing whatever that thing is while also staying in contact with the world um and interfering as little as possible with the natural processes that will show up when you don't interfere with them.
00:42:00
Speaker
So yeah, thank you for revealing that i need to be better at understanding what thinking is because that's clearly a whole.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, my my guess is you don't mean the modality of thought, but how you approach it. ah Because this feels like a deeper not because I can imagine thinking about something conceptually, because there's an unsymbolized conceptual thinking as well, or thinking about something within a monologue, and also having open awareness and attention to what else is happening.
00:42:28
Speaker
ah Because we can do we know from descriptive experience sampling experiments, the people, especially people who are good at things, can have lots of simultaneous stuff happening at once and be that works can work quite well.
00:42:43
Speaker
um But there's also, I think, a thinking when you when you talk about the kind of trope of a scientist going for a long walk and then inventing some amazing discovery, sometimes that feels or waking up while you're asleep, you work something out and wake up in the morning with a new idea.
00:42:59
Speaker
i think lots of that's completely subconscious where there's no awareness at all, which is to me a whole nother kind of thinking. So, yeah. Really interesting. You know, this reminds me of a distinction that I ah discovered while reading Anne Catherine Hayes ah in her book, Unthought, where she identifies the bulk of what we would consider to be like cognition isn't what we would consider to be thought.
00:43:30
Speaker
That is to say, it happens under the hood. It's subconscious thinking or it's unconscious thinking. but um But she didn't call it thinking. She calls that cognition. So there's the cognition that we're aware of, the cognition that we are conscious of. And then there's the unconscious cognition, which happens under the hood and um basically keeps the whole engine thinking.
00:43:55
Speaker
our body, mind running. And it's always there in the background whether we want it to happen or not. But I think what happens when we enter into AT or mindfulness is that we sort of like lower the light of consciousness, which is like a a metaphor that I find useful, where we kind of like go under the hood, I think is what um approximates this idea that AT t is trying to get at.
00:44:20
Speaker
Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.
00:44:23
Speaker
No, i think I think that's right. I think um I've used the analogy of um like a a supercomputer or you know something that's parallel processing as opposed to serial processing to access what's going on here.
00:44:35
Speaker
So as as Francis was saying, like when you have your spacious awareness, you can notice many different things going on at once simultaneously um versus when you are fixated in the kind of this contracted attention mode, contracted awareness mode, it feels like there's just one process going on at once.
00:44:51
Speaker
um So what we're doing is broadening out the the landscape to allow for these, these parallel processes to happen. And I think where I got a bit stuck just now talking about thinking the, one of the issues is because the, the human organism is a, a single integrated psychophysical thing, as opposed to a brain on a stick in this model.
00:45:12
Speaker
So it's very easy. And I'm ready to sign it there is to fall into thinking as a, a thing the brain does, as opposed to a thing, the entire unified psychophysical organism to to use, um,
00:45:24
Speaker
jargon there does. So, you know, is isn't having motion thinking is moving thinking is in a monologue thinking, I mean, arguably, all of it is thinking, whatever thinking is, from my view has to happen in all of it at once, as opposed to just one part of the brain, part of the system that we call the thing that thinks, if you like.
00:45:43
Speaker
Right, right, right. So for you, potentially everything counts under thinking, which means you don't really make this distinction that most people make between thoughts and feelings. Am I correct? Potentially? That's true.
00:45:55
Speaker
um I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that, let me take a step back. I'm currently going into some you know more ah research around you know parts work, coaching, all that kind of like that those models of the of the psyche of of how we work.
00:46:13
Speaker
And i recently drew a parallel between ah part in the sense of an internal family system style part and a pattern of tension in Alexander techniques, i you know holding a body part, for example, or whatever the the doings are.
00:46:26
Speaker
And kind of realizing that parts as described by internal family systems aren't just these cognitive emotional things in their own domain. They are psychophysical things. They are things that happen across the entire organism.
00:46:41
Speaker
So in a very real way, the thing that I'm noticing in the AT lesson with body tension and the part may very well be the exact same thing, just showing up in different domains, um different places that I and would notice them.
00:46:55
Speaker
So I think that's why I got a bit stuck with exactly what thinking is because I don't draw that that separation between places. But now I want to go off and think, okay, what exactly do I mean by thinking? So thank you for the challenge.
00:47:06
Speaker
Given that I i see the the the human organism as a unified whole, Yeah, yeah, totally get that. So, I mean, just to bring it back to that um exercise you mentioned before, constructive rest, where you sit down and then you practice, i guess, mindfulness, or I guess in this case, Alexander technique towards your body.
Continuous Awareness and Technology's Impact
00:47:28
Speaker
um and then being able to notice the subtle tensions here and there. um Is it possible for one to be aware of this, to enter this state of awareness of one's body and one's surroundings, not just during the exercise, which is, I don't know, 10 to 20 minutes, but...
00:47:49
Speaker
all the time when one is awake. Because um i remember coming across ah an AT teacher who who made this claim, who says, like oh, I'm like this all the time.
00:48:00
Speaker
And I was s skeptical when he made it. And I always was also, um whether it was like true or not, but also like whether it was valuable to be in the state 24-7.
00:48:12
Speaker
Yes. So i would say it is possible to be in this state all of the time. And I would say it is likely desirable. um But again, it's about choice.
00:48:24
Speaker
So if you do want to contract and be, you know, not in this state for a period of time, you can be that's it, that's up to you. the The challenge, I guess the question I'll give back to you is kind of test it for yourself.
00:48:39
Speaker
um If you live more in that state, and you find things work better, then do it more. i know um the The argument is that when you inhibit all of the habitual responses, better things happen ultimately because the habitual things are learned responses that may be out of date. They might you know not be the most efficient way of doing things as long as the reasons why um the habitual hip responses aren't the way to go.
00:49:05
Speaker
But what I would say is that the thing that this teacher would claim to be doing all of the time or having all of the time is not something that you can get and then cling onto.
00:49:18
Speaker
And this is a really big trap that but and new students and trainees, teacher trainees fall into, is that, oh, I've got it. I've got this blessed state. It's amazing. And then they kind of grip down on it and expect it to last, which is absolutely not how it works. It's a thing that you renew over and over and over again. And the the reason that they can stay in that state all the time is that the renewing of coming back into direct consciousness, direct contact with the world, that thing becomes habitual in a sense.
00:49:45
Speaker
So you're just constantly like pinging, if you like, like a radar ping, like, yeah, I'm alive. I'm here. I'm here. There's the world. And that's just always running in a sense. It might, you know, might go away sometimes under stress or whatever's going on.
00:49:59
Speaker
But in my experience, by doing this a lot of the time, my my baseline level of this experience has been increasing, increasing. So that even when I forget for a period, I don't sink as far. I don't zone out as far.
00:50:13
Speaker
I don't get as habitual. um and that I have found is very much worth having. um But I wouldn't want to say, this is the best thing and you should all be like this all of the time because that's actively counterproductive, I think, to the actual point.
00:50:28
Speaker
Right, right. What proportion of your time have you got to, would you say? Good question. um I still find it difficult when I'm using technology, and this is something I want to dig into more, actually, because technology is um getting more and more pervasive But when I'm not using my phone, then most of that time, I would say that I'm not on my phone.
00:50:52
Speaker
um The issue is I'm using my phone too much, particularly recently around election time, that kind of thing. But... Oh, so you find ah phone harder than, say, a book or a television show or something?
00:51:05
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i mean, for one thing, it's a much smaller space for me to contract down into, and it's a lot more algorithmic. um I think that a lot of modern technology use and algorithmic stuff and apps and that kind of thing is very much designed to contract our awareness.
00:51:21
Speaker
um And it's very much a non-natural thing in terms of human evolution. These things did not exist for very long in in, you know, the existence of humans. And even though I have psychic defenses, shall we say, I'm still susceptible um and everyone is, and I'm very much looking for ways that we can, we can use these things without harming ourselves.
00:51:43
Speaker
And I don't just mean forward head posture, and um you know i ideological capture, I mean, the full effect that these things have on the on the body mind. um There's a load of um things that can happen if you're not using yourself well to use AT language there. um And I think ah phones in particular are a big cause of it. um So yeah, it's it's very unclear that this is a good thing from that sense.
00:52:11
Speaker
Yeah, i agree with most of that. Right. Just a reminder for everyone, we've just hit the 52nd minute mark.
00:52:21
Speaker
So do we have any more questions that we'd like to explore, Francis? Or should we start wrapping up? i've I think we I'm ready to start wrapping up. Is there anything wanted to ask you, Michael, before we wrap up?
00:52:33
Speaker
I don't think so. i would will just say that I've really appreciated some of the the angles from which you've asked the questions. um You've definitely opened my eyes to things that I want to go off and and research and think about more clearly to clear up my own confusions, particularly around thinking.
00:52:47
Speaker
um So, yeah, I'm just really grateful to you. both Thank you.
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a really good topic. and i am I am intrigued by the comparisons to meditation. And actually, we had an episode um recently about spiritual experiences as well.
00:53:04
Speaker
And just these kind of, and almost like your first lesson sat almost as a spiritual experience in that you completely changed how you saw the world. Yeah. Which is really interesting.
00:53:14
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah, I saw the parallels as well. um i didn't want to like bring it up because i sort of like a and it it's very out of context. But like our previous guest, Jessica, ah she spoke about spiritual experiences.
00:53:32
Speaker
And her spiritual experience, how it differs from a t is that it's very much you get hit by this epiphany and just like, all or nothing experience, whereas I think AT has a more gradual um approach to the state that I think ah that Jessica kind of like just ah snapped into.
00:53:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, AT is very gentle and gradual in that sense. And if it's the same Jessica that I i think I know as well, then she's gone very hard on insight um as her as her practice. um So she will be here.
00:54:08
Speaker
Yeah. Different one, although we do want to interview her about that. got it. So different Jessica, fine. Yeah, cool. Yeah, Jessica Corneve. Got it.
00:54:24
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. that was That was great. um Any tips on if someone's interested in Alexander Technique? Yeah. um Obviously you have your own courses. You can say, if you want to say a little bit about them or any other things you think people should look at or do.
00:54:40
Speaker
Sure. And thank you. So I do have this intro course, which is essentially a set of Alexander technique, pointing out instructions, how you could put it, um that will help um clarify some of the points I've said here.
00:54:53
Speaker
But, you know, aside from that, I think the the two main routes to go would be one is to stay alive to your experience while you're having your experience. And, notice all the ways in which you you check out from the world.
00:55:07
Speaker
That is a really powerful practice. And it's not unique to AT, but what it gives you is that the AT language gives you is the thing that, okay, now I've got that connection with the world. I can notice all the ways in which I'm going habitual and I can make a choice to do something else.
00:55:20
Speaker
So that's the that's the the easy end for anyone to do. On the other end is go see a teacher. um If you have one nearby, um it can be a really interesting and profound experience. The only caveat I will give is that I am my My lineage from my own teacher who describes himself as being on the anarcho left wing of the artisan technique world is very non-traditional.
00:55:40
Speaker
um So all this ah all this awareness and mindfulness chat, you might not find in a traditional lesson. So if you do go, just bear in mind that the the language used and the the exercises might be a little bit different, um but it is the same thing fundamentally.
Personal Experiences and Contact Information
00:55:53
Speaker
Certainly my experience was, was different in exactly the way you described, but it was still amazing. I was, I remember being astounded by how my teacher knew from like lightly touching my shoulders or something, what was happening in my mind and what I was thinking, what was distracting me, what my subconscious was doing. and And she just could tell, and it was like quite magical, um,
00:56:16
Speaker
So it is quite an embodied practice to do in person with someone is definitely how I think about it. but Absolutely. And that's the that's the psychophysical nature of things. Like when I said, you know, thinking is a bodily process. And, you know, it's when you think it shows up, you know, you can tell.
00:56:34
Speaker
And, you know, your teacher doesn't know exactly what you're thinking about, but they can guess the quality and the kind of thing you're thinking about from um hands-on practice. it's It's really bizarre, honestly. But good fun. Cool.
00:56:45
Speaker
So before I wrap up, I'm aware that you, Michael, have a YouTube channel as well as an online course. So go check that out if you, dear listeners, are more interested in Alexander Technique.
00:56:56
Speaker
And Michael, if people want to reach out to you, how should they do it? Twitter? Do you have a website? Yeah, I i would say Twitter's a good place to go. I am at M underscore Ashcroft on Twitter. And um my website is michaelashcroft.com.
00:57:13
Speaker
Cool. We'll put that into the show notes. Thank you very much. And with that, I think we can call it an end. Have a beautiful day.