Transcript
Speaker: No, you know what we need? What? We need to shake it out. We need a song. Okay, let's shake it out. What song? um I don't care. A,
Speaker: ab B, C, D, E, F, U. All right. Reset.
Speaker: My Lord. Oh, m'lady.
Speaker: There will be none of that. Anyway, hi. Hi. Sam. Oh, hey. hi Hi. It's the Jeff and Sam Show. I'm not Sam. I'm Jeff. Indeed. I'm Sam.
Speaker: Hi, Sam. I just said that. I said it again. What's new? How are you? I'm good. I'm tired. I'm good. Okay. This whole new non-sleep thing is really, really fun. You thrive on non-sleep. If there's ever been anybody that thrives on no sleeping, it is you.
Speaker: Listen, listen. I'm getting old, man. Okay, the curveballs that are being thrown at us. It's a weird day. Something's happening. Very weird day. But you know what? That's okay because we're here for your best yoga podcast ever. Let's do some yoga. So soothing. Downward dog.
Speaker: And just relax and breathe deep. And on the inhale, move on. Oh, you gotta breathe out. Oh, okay. You just said that. Oh, sorry. Breathe out. Down, touch your toes. Okay. okay yeah The Pilates working. Just relax into the pose. Can we do the cat cow thing?
Speaker: Cat cow, cat cow, cat cow. Ooh, that hurt. oh Yeah. ah True Crime History comedy podcast. That's us. We may not sound like it. We really may not sound like it, you know, but that's what we are. um You know, the other night when you texted me Sunday night, it was like thunderstorms and the best thunderstorms, right?
Speaker: The show that I was watching, Samantha, was Widow's Bay. Yes! Have you seen it? i It's on my list to be watched. Apple whole TV. It's on my list. Wait no further. Because it's like an island that the mayor, played by Matthew Rhys,
Speaker: Kingston, Rumi, Southwick, Kate O'Flynn, Jeff Hiller, I think is his name. ah They're quite the ensemble, and there's so many more good ones. don't think know any of them by name. would have to see faces, but... I don't know if you do or not, but they play these parts so well.
Speaker: And the mayor is Matthew Rhys. He was on The Americans. You'd know if you saw him immediately. He's the mayor of this like really beautiful New England island town.
Speaker: And ah his plans are that he wants to boost the tourism, right? He wants there to be more tourism, more business on the town. He wants it to be like Martha's Vineyard. But his plans are kind of like fucked when the island's centuries-old curse, steeped in local folklore, strange creatures, and dark sacrifices wakes up and unleashes supernatural hell.
Speaker: I am so down. I watched it all Sunday night and then immediately was like, what did I just watch? hu I don't even understand what happened, but I loved every minute of it. So I immediately go to Reddit, down the rabbit hole of Reddit, danger to try to figure out what, what, what did I just watch? How did it just end that way?
Speaker: Is it a limited series? No. Oh. There's going to be a season two oh for sure. And um because you have to have a season two because it was such it was batshit, this thing. do love some good batshit.
Speaker: Yeah, I do, too. But that's one that you should just wait no longer and immediately watch. OK. Because everything you like is in it. And one person on Reddit said something like, um it's everything she liked. Like it's a little bit of slasher.
Speaker: Here it is right here. Here's what she said. So I think the beauty of the writing of this show is that it pretty much is all horror encompassed. Slasher, jump scares, zombies, unknown, ghosts, murder, demonic, witch. Whatever scary movie actually scares you, it's in there. Interesting. But it's also a comedy.
Speaker: Whoa. Oh, it's so good. So incredible. My brain just glitched trying to add all of that into one show. did too because you know ma horror is my thing and all genres of horror is my thing.
Speaker: And that was it. Well, real quick, let's cheers, queers, to me watching Widow's Bay. Widow's Bay, I'm telling you. Cheers, queers. One of the best shows I've seen in a while.
Speaker: What you drinking? Bloom, pop, a Shirley Temple. Ooh, and I'm a Bloom Pop raspberry lemonade. Oh my. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Shirley Temple's good. Works every time. you know Maybe I work maybe i'll watch too much horror though because I screamed in my sleep the other night. Oh my. Scream's not the right word. I yelled, get out of here.
Speaker: no. In my sleep the other night. Oh no. But you know, I'm such a nurse and I've been a nurse for so long that when I yelled, get out of here. i was sleeping, right? So when I yelled, get out of here, it was like, get of here.
Speaker: And then I was like, i immediately woke up and I was like, that sounded like a stroke. So let me say that again. And I said it again. And I was like, okay, i can go back to sleep. I'm not stroking.
Speaker: I was like, get out of here. Oh no, that slurred speech. Cause I was dreaming. you were dreaming or you were being haunted. Something. Slash possessed. Maybe. i you know i hope it's one of those good possessions. Oh, well definitely. For you it would be. i need to walk on the ceiling and all that fun stuff. Yeah, like raise your arms and like everything starts flying around the room. I'm down for that. Yeah. what super and What supernatural power would you have if you could have one?
Speaker: Oh no, that's too deep. to Is it? Do you know off the top of your head? Disappearing. Being invisible. Interesting. Just because I love a good jump scare. Oh, you motherfucker.
Speaker: I would go crazy with that one. That's an understatement. I would go crazy with that one for sure. um You want to just flip a coin? Real quick though. Oh, tell me. I want you to put two on your list to watch if you haven't already.
Speaker: i got it. um The remake of Presumed Innocent. Okay. The original had, I think Harrison Ford. Good, this one, Jake Gyllenhaal. let me tell you.
Speaker: Wait, I've seen it. You've seen it? I've seen it. Okay, did you love it? Loved it. Loved it. Everything about it. Is it the... the Lawyer. He is the lawyer. yep And his son, is this the one I'm thinking about? His son may or may not have done something?
Speaker: Close. So you're probably thinking of the right show, but you missed... misspoke on one of the details, but that's kind of giving away the end. seen it.
Speaker: Yeah. Do they end up in Mexico? No. It's the other one then. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, this one is not in Mexico. Okay. um But just like just some really good surprises.
Speaker: Jake Gyllenhaal, he's just amazing. know. I love him, and he's so versatile. But he just nailed this role perfectly. And Ruth Negga, who plays his wife.
Speaker: Can you give me a synopsis? And I'll tell you if I've seen it. New York... high power lawyer
Speaker: gets accused of murdering one of his coworkers who also happened to be his lover at one point.
Speaker: don't want to say I did, but I don't know. I'll make sure i did. Okay. Watch that one. Okay. It's, it's an easy, I think it's like six episodes. It's a short series, but there were just the right amount of surprises and twists and like,
Speaker: Oh no moments where you were like, Ooh, this is not going great. Yeah. Um, and then the other one is blackbird. Have you seen that one? Yes. Based on true story, Taron Egerton. Yeah.
Speaker: No. No. I haven't seen it. Watch it. Watch it. It's a true story. is he a prisoner? So he goes, yeah, he goes to jail for okay drugs and all that shenanigans and then is offered a deal. Yes. Okay. i know what you're talking about. I haven't seen it at all.
Speaker: It's like six seasons or six episodes, something like that. That one I think is eight, maybe. Yeah, but it's short. It's short. It's short. Oh, I'll watch it. yeah I'll watch it.
Speaker: And then obviously because this one's the most important, they did in fact make a season two of I Kissed a Girl. Okay. So. ah I'll put that on my list. Really important. Yeah. Okay. You said the last one was called what? Blackbird.
Speaker: I'm putting that on my list right now. Yeah, okay, because... Also, Taron Egerton, also very versatile. You watched the movie with Charlize Theron, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, just so versatile. He's so good.
Speaker: heard they're coming out with a second Atomic Blonde. No way. Yep. Oh, man. Oh, well, what's our count on Practical Magic, by the way? Nah, September the 11th. Woo! No. Oh, yes, I know. um And also, we need to private business, the movie passing. thing Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Anyway... Anyway, welcome to the show. This is us. This is very random. We start by just chit-chatting for the most part. And then going to flip a coin because somehow we got on that on how to decide who goes first because we tell two totally unrelated stories. And we have started a whole thing where we collect coins from our own travels and people bring them back from their travels. And and then also rate us and review us. Follow us, like, subscribe. Give us a comment.
Speaker: Send us some love. Five stars, Jeff. Come to my face and quote me on something. I will have no idea not in the hell you're talking about. Not at all. But that's okay. I enjoy it because I'm like, did I really say that? Yeah. All right. Ready? Yep.
Speaker: So many coins. Go. right now. but ah This is hilariously awesome and accurate. On one side of the coin, it is a skeleton sitting in a burning dumpster that says everything is fine.
Speaker: And on the other side, it is a skeleton with a sword standing outside of the dumpster fire. And it says the strongest steel is forged in the fire of a dumpster.
Speaker: You are the one with the sword. I think that's actually incredibly accurate. I would hurt something or somebody. Yeah. Okay. This is a very heavy coin. It is. Maybe just the light flip. I don't, I need both my, shut up. You caught it.
Speaker: Okay. Sword. You're the sword. I'm the sword. Okay. Hit I've got a one for you. Okay. um Not two, not three, not four. Well, so speaking of counting, I would like you, as you listen to this story and those of you listening, I want you to just try and pinpoint,
Speaker: um ah it's like an Easter egg hunt here, what we're going to do, is every time you think that the system failed...
Speaker: I want you to to make a note of it, okay? And at the end, we'll determine how many fails there were. Do you know the answer to that? I do. okay Actually, I'm going to write the final answer so that I remember to read that out.
Speaker: um Okay, so let us let us begin. So, um Harvey A. Marcelin. Have you heard the name? Mm-mm. Born in Harlem, New York on May 21st, 1938. He was an only child and he was absolutely adored by both of his parents.
Speaker: The family environment and their relationship was objectively stable and happy. When he was 10 years old, Harvey's father died.
Speaker: His mother enrolled him in Catholic school, and according to later interviews with Marceline, during this time at Catholic school, he was physically, emotionally, and sexually abused.
Speaker: It was around this time in Catholic school that he also began exhibiting behavioral problems. So whether or not he was in fact abused and his behavior was...
Speaker: um an expression of that, we don't know. Okay. um In 1951, again, in later interviews, Marcelin admits that he began cross-dressing and started suffering from gender dysphoria.
Speaker: And around the same time, he had sex with a man for the first time. He became increasingly troubled after this kind of turning point for him. And at the age of 14, he was accused of sexually assaulting an eight-year-old girl.
Speaker: Shortly after the accusations, he was admitted into a psychiatric hospital where the reports note that he was a truant, a thief, and a sexual deviant.
Speaker: He gets out of the hospital after a couple months and goes back to school. He graduated 1956. 1957, Marcelin jailed burglary. marscelin was jailed for burglary Upon his release and for the few years that followed, he moved back in with his mother and worked in a coffee shop.
Speaker: ah His emerging mental illness and new kind of found drug addiction made it impossible for him to hold any other job. um Over the years, he had intermittent admissions and evaluations to hospitals that left multiple psychiatrists kind of baffled about what official diagnosis he held.
Speaker: In the early 1960s, despite all of his issues, Marceline married Florence Jackson,
Speaker: Of note here, I just want to say, and it goes along the same lines as every time we talk about any like bad guy, or well, mostly men, right? It's, how the fuck are they finding people to marry them? And the only response that I have is one from way back in the day I was given lovely advice about dating, is that there is a trash can, or there is a lid for every trash can, okay?
Speaker: So just remember that. Yeah. So he marries Florence and unsurprisingly their marriage was turbulent. Marceline repeatedly cheated on her. On April 9th, 1962, Marceline voluntarily checked himself into Bellevue Hospital for psychiatric evaluation.
Speaker: He was there for a week. Doctors conducted countless tests and established that he suffered from schizophrenia, delusions, and paranoid personality. Later that same year, Marceline began an affair with 24-year-old Jacqueline Bonds.
Speaker: It was short-lived, and it ended when she became fearful of how aggressive he was. In response to the rejection, Marceline stalked her, harassed her, and threatened her. In March of 1963, Marceline and his girlfriend at the time were arrested on charges of attempted rape, second-degree assault, and burglary.
Speaker: Jacqueline Bonds was arrested able to provide eyewitness testimony in the case. Marcelin was released on bail into his mother's kale care while the investigation proceeded.
Speaker: Just weeks after his release, weeks after his release, he presented himself to Bond's apartment, argued with her in the hallway, pulled out a gun, and shot her right there in the hallway.
Speaker: She tried to flee, he followed her and he shot her two more times, and then he left her to die on her floor. Marcelin was apprehended shortly after the incident and taken to Bellevue. Psychiatrists acknowledged that he did suffer from schizoid personality disorder with sociopathic traits, but they endorsed that he was sane and able to stand trial.
Speaker: On November 18th, 1963, Marcelin was found guilty of first-degree murder. He eluded the death penalty when the jury ended in a deadlock. He was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
Speaker: His reasoning for murdering Bonds was simple in his mind. He said he was jealous of her beauty and popularity. And if he couldn't have her, no one could. What the He said he'd be damned if she would testify against him.
Speaker: Because remember, there was still that investigation about the rape and the assault. Okay? So he spent years bouncing between prison facilities and then in 1971 participated in the Attica prison riot.
Speaker: After the riot ended, Marceline was one of the many inmates who was transferred to other facilities. Okay. Unfortunately, state laws changed, which opened the door for his possible release.
Speaker: For 21 years, his parole applications were repeatedly denied due to his aggressive behavior towards women. In May of 1984, he was granted parole with quote-unquote lifetime supervision.
Speaker: The fuck does that mean? Yeah. He returned to New York City and took a room at the Cambridge Residence Hotel. Again, psych problems, drugs. He struggled financially and couldn't find employment. So that room that he had, he was started renting it out to make money.
Speaker: He kind of immersed himself in some of what people might call the seedier populations. he Spent most of his time with um sex workers, homeless individuals, and addicts.
Speaker: 29-year-old Anna Laura Serrera Miranda entered his life in early 85. The heroin-addicted prostitute became roommates with Marceline.
Speaker: large Lodging together was not a great idea. Didn't last long. In October that same year, high on drugs, the two argued. Marceline stabbed Miranda to death and then proceeded to dismember her, place her body parts into multiple black garbage bags, and scatter those bags across Central Park.
Speaker: Jeez. When the remains were discovered, it was no hard task to link Marceline. Everyone knew that she was his roommate, etc. So his neighbor had also watched him carrying a black trash bag that was dripping blood out of his room the day after the murder.
Speaker: What did that neighbor do? Do we know? She was like, I'm going mind my own business. That's paint. Don't know. That's paint. That's for sure paint. going to mind own business right now. For sure paint.
Speaker: um Okay, so then...
Speaker: Marceline never denied killing her, but he claimed that it was self-defense. He said that he cared very deeply for Miranda and would never have hurt her. He also claimed that she frequently stole from him and stopped paying her rent, but he still loved her and wouldn't hurt her.
Speaker: Miranda's autopsy revealed 33 stab wounds. When asked why he continued to stab her so many times, he said, I just did. But he would never hurt her.
Speaker: And it was self-defense because you have to stab someone 33 times. thirty three times god Yeah. So, he's on parole under lifetime supervision, okay? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So, for committing a felony while on parole, his parole role was revoked and he was sent back to prison to continue his life sentence. In 1986, he was convicted in the death of Miranda, but instead of first or second degree murder, he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter.
Speaker: Which, i've I feel like that's a big fuck up, right? Like,
Speaker: if I was saying, oh, you're accused of first degree murder, but... Stabbing somebody 33 times. While you already were in jail for life for... Something horrible. Violently murdering someone else.
Speaker: um Like, yeah here's here's a plea deal, you know? Go for manslaughter, accept it. Manslaughter, like get the fuck out of here. So, um yeah, I mean, I would lie too. I would say, yeah, I i would do anything to get a lesser sentence.
Speaker: du Duh, duh. um So, in a in a crime as heinous as this, like how is that offered, right? Like why is that why is that even on the table? Especially because of his history.
Speaker: Like why? Why are we talking about that? Yeah. I don't care how hard the case is, you fucking try it and you're gonna get it. You know, you you don't fucking, that's just bullshit.
Speaker: um So for this manslaughter charge, he only received 12 years tacked onto his life sentence. And because it was a lesser charge, he was allowed to apply for and potentially be granted parole.
Speaker: What the fuck? My pen is gonna run out of ink. Yeah. So between, want to ask you like what number you're at already, but. i can tell you. What number you're at? Eight.
Speaker: Yeah. So between 1985 and 2019, Marcelin applied for parole times. Each time, he was denied due to the gruesome nature of his crimes. During his long stretch in 1993, Marceline met a transsexual inmate who suggested Marceline start taking HRT.
Speaker: Without hesitation, Marceline committed to transitioning to a female. So, it the thing that's crazy is that, like, this is... It's like a long game. This is a marathon, right? So there are moments in here where you're thinking, yeah, the system's working, right?
Speaker: But you're already at eight, nine, right? So on August 2019, Marceline yet again paroled. marcein was yet again parolt The board took into consideration factors like his advanced age, letters from volunteer organizations pledging to support him upon his release, the successful completion of multiple rehabilitation programs, and the fact that he earned a graduate degree in computer science and technology.
Speaker: When addressing the parole board, he gave his word that he would never reoffend. I mean, but like they took all that into account, but not the murdered victims or their families into account. Okay. I'm just making sure that's right. Well, and so, I mean, that's one of the things, right? Is, uh, we'll, we'll put a pin in that. Okay. Okay.
Speaker: So yeah, he's this great reformed and everybody loves a good transformative and transcendent prison story. Right? Like, right. Right. So does any of that actually have to do with or have any impact on murderous impulses, extreme violence, addiction, and like what is very likely a fucking soul deep sickness? Yeah.
Speaker: Like it it doesn't, right? No. um If you're going to stab somebody 33 times, a female, and you're a man, and there's probably no coming back from that.
Speaker: I just don't think. I mean, just my little opinion, you know? Yeah. So, ah after a cumulative 55 years in prison since the first cold-blooded murder of Jacqueline Bonds, 81-year-old Harvey Marcelin was yet again free.
Speaker: So, Marcelin returned yet again to New York City, this time as a transgender female going by the name of Marceline Harvey. Really pulled that one out of nowhere. Fucking original.
Speaker: um In that same year, Marceline or marceline met 68-year-old Susan Layden. She was a lesbian woman living in an LGBTQ dedicated homeless shelter who trying to pick the pieces back up from her life because she had previously been a really successful entrepreneur and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: Susan suffered from her own mental illnesses and addiction. The pair became close. Together, they moved to ah property in Manhattan where Marceline thrived. Despite her age, she became quite the social butterfly, both in person and online, like Facebook out the ass, okay? She created multiple social media pages. She had intimate relationships with multiple women while living with Susan and would bring her new friends home to the apartment they shared.
Speaker: This is crazy to me that suddenly we're at a Facebook time because this started so long before. Marathon. Marathon. In February 2022, two thousand and twenty two The inevitable and predictable happened.
Speaker: Marceline struck again. She stabbed Susan Lydon and viciously beat her to death, dismembered her body, and scattered her remains across many blocks in the city.
Speaker: Susan's torso was found in a bag in Brooklyn. Again, the trail wasn't hard to follow back to the roommate, ah Marceline Harvey, formerly known as the twice convicted murderer Harvey Marceline. Okay.
Speaker: So Marceline gets arrested. On March 4th, when police searched the apartment, they found black garbage bags, Lydon's severed head, Oh, no. A hand, an arm, part of a leg, a power saw, and bloody stuff.
Speaker: Okay? Yeah. Police also obtained surveillance footage from multiple sources. The entryway to the apartment showed Susan Layden alive, walking into the apartment on the 27th, and then she never came out.
Speaker: um Over the days following, Marceline went about normal business, walking in and out, carrying around a purse that actually belonged to Susan, Local hardware store footage showed Marceline purchasing the the reciprocal saw on March 1st.
Speaker: On March 2nd, Marceline was seen on footage in a grocery store riding on a mobility scooter with what appeared to be a severed human leg in a black garbage can or garbage bag in the seat with her. oh my God.
Speaker: The entirety of Susan's remains were never found. On March 30th, 2022, Harvey Marceline, Marceline Harvey, pleaded not guilty of second-degree murder and concealment of a corpse.
Speaker: Motive was tricky to find. Based on Marceline's active social media posts, it appeared that she held nothing but admiration and love for Susan, so much so that she used Susan's picture for her profile in some of her multiple accounts. However, police dug deep, and they did find a post that um Susan had put on one of Marceline's photos in which she expressed not the happy-go-lucky love-struck emotions and simply wrote, freak.
Speaker: The working theory was that Susan's feelings had changed and she no longer reciprocated Marceline's feelings or desire for friendship. The relationship had become obsessive and dangerous. While Susan had been working hard to clean herself up and turn her life around, Marceline had none of that. Faced with the possibility of being abandoned by yet another partner or woman could have been motive enough.
Speaker: And it had easily been in the past. um As with many of our most loathed and disturbing killers, Marceline gained fame for the odd details surrounding the crimes and the perpetrator. The age, the gender identity, the childhood trauma, existing criminal history, the unbelievable saga of finding ways to repeatedly dupe the justice system. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: While in Rikers Island, Marceline gave an interview where she claimed responsibility for the murders of Bonds and Miranda, but continued to deny any part in Susan's death, said that it was the friends and visitors who came, um who she now referred to as evil crackheads. Okay? and during the time when we went back to prison and when the...
Speaker: dead um trial began. Marceline claimed to have split personality, which is now referred to as multiple personality disorder. One was Marceline Harvey, the kind, peaceful, caring lesbian woman.
Speaker: The alternate personality that she claimed would periodically surface was Harvey Marceline, the bad guy, misogynistic male with deviant and aggressive tendencies. On April 20th, 2026.
Speaker: twenty twenty six That's insane. Harvey Marcelin appeared in court, identifying again as a male and requesting to be addressed as Mr. Harvey.
Speaker: By the end of May, 2026, Harvey Marcelin was the owner of yet another first degree murder conviction. On June 10th, 2026, 88 year old Harvey Marcelin was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
Speaker: I mean, honestly. That was this year. couple months ago. Damn. During the sentencing, Marceline continued to claim innocence in Susan's murder, deflected blame onto their friend, claimed that he was framed and part of a targeted attack by the prosecution.
Speaker: Although he appeared old and frail, I mean, you should see the pictures of this guy. I mean, fuck off. Fuck all the way off. Okay. Speaking from a wheelchair and wearing layers and a knit cap, the Brooklyn Supreme Court justice would not make the same mistake as others.
Speaker: Assistant District Attorney Rossini said, there is no hope for rehabilitation. District Attorney Gonzalez said, the brutality of this shocking crime is almost beyond words.
Speaker: I mean, finally. I mean, like the other ones weren't, right? Yeah. Get the fuck out of here. And so he was no longer able to hide the monster that he truly was, and these people were finally seeing it. Marcelin's age and nonsensical grasping at emotions would not protect him from the fate that he had truly deserved from the beginning.
Speaker: There was no doubt or question in anybody's mind that if he were to be released again, he would pose a significant threat to society and would absolutely kill again, regardless of his age. How old is he now, you said? 88. 88, okay.
Speaker: Yeah. So he may not have been the most prolific serial killer because serial killer is three murders over the course of a period of time, right? So he is a serial killer.
Speaker: um But his crimes were horrific and brutal. Not more so than all of the other ones that we've talked about, like but enough, right? He may have suffered mental illness, but he fooled everyone who mattered and was a masterful manipulator. So, sure, right? He's got these diagnoses, and they're pretty significant ones, right?
Speaker: But he still had the mental capacity to manipulate. That's part of it, though, right? his advantage. That's, I mean... ah We have talked previously about how the system of crime and punishment has been evolving to encompass more of a rehabilitative focus. It's now crime and rehabilitation, right?
Speaker: So I challenge you, right? we've We've also previously discussed the complexities that surround that concept of rehabilitation, right? So ah couple questions.
Speaker: Can people be truly rehabilitated? Depends on from what, right? Right. Do people have the capacity to change? So one of my professors in college posed that question to our class. And she said, do people have the ability to change? And we all said, absolutely. Of course they do. And she was an older woman, and she had lived a long life, and she was brilliant.
Speaker: She said, maybe to modify, but not change. So that sticks out in my head every time I hear that question. I'm like, people can modify. We're modifiable different creatures. Yeah. We adapt. Yeah.
Speaker: We alter ourselves. So how do you measure or predict something of that? Someone's ability or capacity to, to change or to be rehabilitated?
Speaker: Well, I mean, you start by, I am not an expert. Okay. But like, look at the dudes or the ladies past and think, could somebody who stabbed 33 or one person 33 times,
Speaker: I mean, could that be rehabilitated? Do we think so? So? Or put her in a bag with blood dripping out of it. Could that be? Is that a thing?
Speaker: And then take severed leg to the store with you. Does he deserve to be rehabilitated? Well, you know dad for the the second parole, he had completed successfully multiple rehabilitative programs.
Speaker: Congratulations. He got certificate. You may have stabbed somebody 33 times, but good to go. Have a good day. So what crime is worth risking repeating in the name of hoping for change, right? So that's where you you have to look at their past, right? So like his crimes...
Speaker: Is he worth rehabilitating? Because if he is not and you fall for it, ding, ding, ding, ding his crimes were heinous. The heinous crimes part is the part to me, you know, it's the part to me that you there's no going back from.
Speaker: Exactly. So oh you have to consider what crime is too gruesome to be considered capable of reflecting, recovering, evolving,
Speaker: and attempting to rectify. You have to look at that, right? Yeah. But that's like saying Jeffrey Dahmer could be rehabilitated. Not a thing.
Speaker: There was not an inch of a soul in that man, you know? Yep. So who should have the power to determine a person's true intentions or abilities to be and do better?
Speaker: I mean, nobody on the surface, these seem like such easy questions and I just want to spout out, like, nobody can determine that. That's not a determinable thing. You can just look at what they've done and say, based on what you've done, this does not apply to you.
Speaker: Right? ah does i agree. I think that that should, i why? Why does have to be complex? Because the truth is, is that like, okay, one strike, And then he did it again. But what's the first strike though? Is the first strike like... The sexual assault on the eight year old? Yeah, I mean... That he didn't receive any... There's no going back for that.
Speaker: There's no like... He was 14. Yeah. yeah Yeah. And then... um In this instance... I feel confident that I can say the justice system failed in a magnificently tragic way and irrefutably caused the death of two more women who should never have been exposed to the likes of such an unquestionably irredeemable monster.
Speaker: Right? Mm-hmm. um So a kind, seemingly remorseful elderly man with a troubled past says the right things, shows the right type of effort, motivates himself and obtains a complex graduate degree while incarcerated.
Speaker: Picture of reform. But how does that wash away the fact that that same man butchered, mutilated and defiled a woman simply because he could? Mental illness, drug addictions, childhood trauma,
Speaker: we We talk about it all the time. Every serial killer we talk about, we talk about, oh, how bad was our childhood, right? how What influence does that have, right? But when does the sum of that equation tip the scales? Who has the right to risk the lives of countless unnamed and unsuspecting others by passing judgment on a violent criminal's ability to alter a potentiallyally potentially born with it kind of evil and cruelty?
Speaker: that those people's blood is on those judges hands that said, okay, buddy. volunteer organizations that vouched for him. the The people that said that he, the first time he was released, he was on lifetime supervision. How do you fucking murder someone?
Speaker: How do you stab someone 33 times while you're on what's lifetime supervision? Let's go be judge. Let's go be lawyers and a judge. Let's fucking do it. Yeah. I think we could change the world. My count was 10. I had 11.
Speaker: i had eleven I missed one. Yeah. Because I'm sure there were more. think you just got distracted by the heinousness of it. What horrible story, but good job. Thank you. Okay. You ready for mine? Uh-huh.
Speaker: Don't look at the watch. Okay. going to make it through it. When it was all over, and when it was possible to last begin gathering the fragments of the story, a story of deceit and betrayal and lust and murder and the destruction of life's most sacred bonds, it seemed unlikely that the small, plain town could have ever held this woman. After they talked about her as if she were someone they remembered from a tale read in a fictitious,
Speaker: book or scene on a TV movie, yeah many wondered if the story had was even finished. And some found themselves wondering at times if it had ever happened at all. But it had happened. And it was the peculiar power of the woman that so many people in these so many places felt that they had been part of the story.
Speaker: wasn't a good story. This is the story of the Black Widow of Alabama, Audrey Marie Hilly. i Love a good Black Widow. Oh my God. So last week I did Popcorn Sutton and I was like kind of into the Southern crime thing. So I Googled some Southern crimes and Audrey Marie popped up. Now that was from the book, um, Black Widow caught in her own web. Audrey.
Speaker: Yes. And I'll have this all in the show notes. Medium, couple of medium articles. Um, um Again, all in the show notes. Audrey Marie Hilly was born June 4th, 1933, near Anniston, Alabama, about 40 minutes away from my hometown.
Speaker: Where I went to jackson Jacksonville State University is in Calhoun County, right down the road. Her parents, Huey and Lucille Frazier, were barely middle class, though they made sure that Marie had everything she wanted and she needed.
Speaker: And if she didn't get what she wanted or needed, she would throw a tantrum. and When she was 18, she married her high school boyfriend, Frank Hilly. Frank was home from leave on Guam as he was in the Navy. That's when they got married. and Once Frank got out of the Navy, he and Marie bought a house in Anniston.
Speaker: In 1952, their son Michael was born, and 1960, Carol was born.
Speaker: Money was always a contentious subject in the house. They made good money, but Marie liked to spend a lot of money, so Frank would try to convince Marie to spend less, but she would shrug him off.
Speaker: Michael, who is now at this time an adult, he becomes a minister. The daughter Carol is a teenager in high school. She's a source of disappointment for her mom.
Speaker: She's a tomboy. Marie thinks it's because she spends all of her time with her dad, and also Carol may be a little bit gay. couldn't find anything on that. oh and Yeah, I was a tomboy too. Yeah. And Marie was getting money any way she could. Frank came home one day to find Marie in bed with her boss.
Speaker: Yeah. Turns out she was getting it on with her bosses in exchange for money because Marie did love spending that money. Frank really didn't have anybody to disclose this to, so he chose to tell his son, the minister, don't put that one on your son, for counseling.
Speaker: And Frank's death... You couldn't find one of his like co-workers in there, another minister in the congregation? Right, don't put that on your son. And Frank's health was going downhill. In fact, Frank spent most of 1974 suffering from stomach cramps, nausea, and vomiting. Sure he did.
Speaker: And in May of 75, he finally went to the good old doctor. And the docs prescribed him some medication, but there was nothing that helped him. He was admitted to the hospital where tests shows that he had showed that he had liver failure.
Speaker: And Frank died May of 75 with the cause of death death listed as infectious hepatitis. ha Marie... you'll be so shocked to hear this, collected $31,000 from the life insurance policy that she had on Frank.
Speaker: And she spent it almost immediately. She couldn't even afford the basic bills, but she spent $31,000 like it was nothing. When that money was gone, she invited Michael, her son, and his wife, Terry, to move in with her and Carol.
Speaker: Marie and Carol, but they fought all the time. They constantly had a difference of opinion on everything. Carol would later tell this note the show Snapped, quote, I couldn't please her no matter what I did. She didn't like what I wore, she didn't like how I thought, and she didn't like who I hung out with.
Speaker: And now, Terry, Mike's wife, starts having bouts of nausea and vomiting. Not unlike Frank's symptoms. As well as miscarriages during this time.
Speaker: Mike and Terry decided it was time to move into their own place. But the night before they were supposed to leave, Marie's house caught on fire. Oh my god. This led to Marie... and Carol having to move into Mike and Terry's apartment.
Speaker: And then as soon as the repairs were complete on Marie's house, a fire broke out next door in Mike and Terry's apartment, causing them to have to move back in with Marie for a while. Once they were able to move out of Marie's home for good, Terry's ailments miraculously seemed to disappear. Weird. Imagine that. It's that monster-in-law thing. Exactly. Clearly. Obviously. As soon as Marie's...
Speaker: mother Lucille died in 1977, Marie began spending more time doing other things to make money like shoplifting and stealing. 1978, Marie took out $25,000 life insurance policy on Carol, her daughter. No, Carol. No, honey. Carol. Carol.
Speaker: Girl, you're 18, run, run. And it wasn't long before Carol started presenting to the same symptoms that her father had before his death. She would go to the hospital with these same symptoms.
Speaker: Nausea, vomiting, of course they could not find a medical reason for this. Carol was even sent to undergo psychiatric testing in the event that her symptoms were psychosomatic, and that means relating to involving concerned with bodily symptoms caused by mental and emotional disturbance.
Speaker: There was probably some of that too. A month after being admitted, because of the emotional disturbance. A month after being admitted to the hospital, Carol's doctor suspected a heavy metal poisoning was the reason for her unexplained symptoms, which is now the symptoms were malnutrition, vitamin deficiencies.
Speaker: In a panic, Marie... Immediately had Carol discharged from that hospital and admitted her to the University of Alabama Birmingham Hospital the next day. She's like, he's on to me.
Speaker: Let's get her out of this hospital. Don't quite want her to die yet, maybe, but you know. UAB Hospital concentrated on the heavy metal toxicity, though. Carol had a vitamin deficiency, malnutrition, and she suffered from nerve palsy that, because of this, she had lost her deep tendon reflexes. Ugh.
Speaker: In a purely coincidental event though, Marie was arrested for writing bad checks, including several that were written to pay on the life insurance policies that she had taken out on Mike and Carol.
Speaker: Also during this time, Mike, the son, started to have suspicions surrounding all the mysterious illnesses that seemed to follow his mother. Good for him! Yes. He even called the Calhoun County, alabama's Alabama coroner's office to try to exhume his father's body for additional testing, but he was told that his suspicion wasn't enough to justify exhumation.
Speaker: I think my mom killed my dad. Not enough. So when Carol's friend, Eve Cole, visited at visit her her at the hospital, she thought it was odd that Marie was given Carol shots, which were supposedly to treat the nausea.
Speaker: She happened to mention it to Carol's Aunt, Freda, who relayed the information on to Mike, the son. Marie was arrested again, but for writing fraudulent checks. And Carol's family took the opportunity to explain to the dark what had been going on about the shots.
Speaker: And so the doctor did another assessment on Carol. And it was during this assessment that he found these little white lines going horizontally across the fingernails. Now this is known as Aldrich-Meese lines.
Speaker: So the doc ordered arsenic testing. And guess what? Forensic tests on the samples of her hair were conducted by the Alabama Department of Forensic science Sciences on October 3, 1979, revealing arsenic levels ranging from over 100 times the normal level close to the scalp to zero times the normal level at the end of the hair shaft. This indicated that Carroll had been given increasingly larger doses of arsenic over a period of four to eight months.
Speaker: Now, Mike... the minister, had more than just suspicion to exhume his dad's body. Nice. So he formally requested that his father, the remains, be exhumed, which did confirm the fact that he died of arsenic poisoning. Oh.
Speaker: Marie's mother Lucille was also exhumed and tested. She too had high arsenic levels. Your own mom, your own daughter. She too had high arsenic levels in her body, but the medical examiner ruled that cancer was the actual cause of her death, but i bet the arsenic didn't help.
Speaker: Marie was already in jail on bad check charges when she was charged with the attempted murder of Carol, her own daughter. Anniston police even found a vial of arsenic in her purse. And two weeks later, Frank Soster found a jar of rat poison which contained 1.4 to 1.5 percent arsenic.
Speaker: So Marie made bond on November 11th, 1979, where she remained her until the trial. Just kidding. On ah on November 19th, a burglary occurre occurred at the home of Maria's aunt. The occupant's car was stolen, as well as some clothes and an overnight bag. fuck Investigators found a note in the house reading, quote, do not call police. We will burn you out if you do. We found what we wanted and will not bother you again, end quote.
Speaker: Marie had skipped town. In fact, the same day that she disappeared, Carol Hilly, Frank's mom, died of cancer. Her autopsy also showed high levels of arsenic in her body.
Speaker: Considering that she was now suspected of poisoning four people and she's missing, the FBI joined the search for Marie. And if you thought this story was over, yep just wait.
Speaker: Under the alias Robbie, Marie traveled to Florida and met a man named John Holman. They lived together for more than a year before marrying on May the 29th, 1981, at which point she took his name, Robbie Holman.
Speaker: The couple moved to New Hampshire, and late in the summer of 1982, Robbie, Marie, robby marie left New Hampshire telling her husband that she needed to attend family business and to see some doctors about an illness.
Speaker: During this time, she traveled to Florida and Texas using the alias Terry Martin, an imaginary twin sister. During the trip, Marie called Homan as Terry, Robbie's made-up twin, and informed him that Robbie had died in Texas, saying that there was no need for him to claim the body because it had been donated to medical science.
Speaker: After getting to know Terry, also Robbie, also Marie, over the phone, Homan expressed interest in meeting her. Homan was like, shut I don't know what Homan was like, honestly. I mean, one twin's dead, I got the other.
Speaker: She agreed, saying that she needed he needed to put Robbie's death behind him, and so did she. And in November 1982, after she went peroxide blonde and she lost weight, Marie returned to New Hampshire and reunited with Homan, posing as his deceased wife's sister.
Speaker: That's a lot. But you're with me so far, right? Yeah. An obituary for Robbie Homan appeared in the New Hampshire newspaper, but aroused suspicion when police were unable to verify any of the information it contained.
Speaker: Homan's co-workers also had suspicions about his new sister-in-law, and they were also concerned that some type of scam was at play. A detective with the New Hampshire State Police surmised that the woman living as Terry and Robbie were one in the same.
Speaker: Homan's concerned co-workers discovered that Medical Research Institute of Texas, where Robbie's quote, quote, quote, body was supposedly handed over for study, didn't exist. Didn't exist. and the church that did her eulogy didn't exist.
Speaker: While Homan's workplace audited was audited, there was no embezzlement found. Authorities still believe that Terry Martin, and I'm doing air quotes, Terry Martin was possibly a fugitive bank robber named Carol Manning, later disproven.
Speaker: are wanted on some other outstanding charges. In the meantime, Terry, air quotes, had taken a secretarial job in nearby Brattleboro, Vermont, and was arrested while being interrogated by Vermont state troopers. Are they scary? Do you think they're scary, Vermont state troopers?
Speaker: Probably not. I mean, it's Vermont. I know. They would seem so nice. It's like a hop, skip, and a jump away from Canadian Mounties. Did you kill somebody? Or, you know, like, they would seem so sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so she confessed confessed that she was wanted in ah Alabama on writing fraudulent checks, but divulged her true name.
Speaker: She did divulge her true name. Contact with Alabama authorities confirmed this, and while also disclosing the far more serious charges for murder and attempted murder. She just left that one out.
Speaker: Yeah, but when they called, yeah. Yeah, I'm just, you know. It's checks. My name is Marie, but it's just checks. But the Alabama authorities were like, this woman has killed people possibly.
Speaker: Marie was extradited to Alabama in January 1983 stand trial. during the trial Carol testified against her mother, explaining to the court that her mother had begun giving her injections of, quote, cloudy and white-looking stuff in August of 79.
Speaker: Only three hours after deliberation, the jury found Marie guilty on both counts. Marie was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of her husband, Frank, and 20 years for the attempted murder of her own daughter, Carol.
Speaker: She was transported to the Tutwiler State Women's Prison in Wetumpka, Alabama, in June of 83. Those are some names. Tutwiler Watamka. Watamka.
Speaker: But we're not done there yet. Oh, shit. Not yet. You know Marie. She's got a plan, honey. Oh, my God. Being a clerical professional in prison, Marie was frequently tasked with doing paperwork and was seen as a model prisoner. Fucking hell. you want to keep your list of, like, how many times are we...
Speaker: Like, it is this person... Like, duped. So she was a model prisoner. She was, like... Reformed. Wonderful. Rehabilitated. Right. She received multiple one-day passes from prison for her good behavior. God. I want to throw something. And she always returned on time.
Speaker: In February of 19th, 1987, Marie, sweet, lovely Marie, was granted three-day furlough from the prison to visit her still husband, John Homan. Have you, you've heard the song Old Red by Blake Shelton? Yes. Yeah, you know what he does. He takes the dog the same path all the time. Yes. He meets up with the puppy or the lady dog and then one day he just doesn't come back. Yes. he leaves Old Red out there. Yes, absolutely. Fucking Marie. Fucking Marie.
Speaker: Okay, so she was furloughed. She went to visit John, who still loves her, still with her. Weird, weird, weird. She stayed with him at the hotel in Aniston over the weekend, but then guess what?
Speaker: She left him. Wow. And there was a note saying she was escaping to Canada with a man named Walter. Walter. Old Walter. Whatever Carol's intention, she became stranded in the Alabama wilderness during a period of heavy rain and low temps. She didn't make it very far. On February 26th, a resident of Blue Mountain reported to police that there was a delirious woman covered in mud crawling on her front porch. Oh, fuck.
Speaker: She was bleeding, bruised, and her clothes were torn. Marie was unclean with mud on her face and long fingernails, and according to the woman who found her, was charactert her character her appearance was characterized as frightening.
Speaker: She had been crawling in the woods through the woods for four days in near-freezing temps. After the resident informed the police, paramedics were called. And while being taken to the hospital for treatment, Marie lost consciousness. Although she was cognizant at the scene, she then experienced a heart attack when she arrived to the hospital.
Speaker: Doctors attempted to revive her but were unsuccessful, and Audrey Marie Hilly was pronounced dead three and a half dot three and a half hours after being found
Speaker: Right. And for Marie's daughter, Carol, oddly, like she made a full recovery after her mom's death. She's good now. But from the book Poisoned Blood by the author Philip Ginsberg, he said, quote, "'The chill rain that had hastened Marie Hilly's death "'continued off and on during the days before her funeral.'" It was falling once again as a small group of mourners gathered at Forest Lawn Gardens for the burial ceremony.
Speaker: John Homan was there, hovering in the background. Her daughter Carol stood erect to the graveside. And presiding over the service was her son, the Reverend Michael Hilly.
Speaker: Audrey Marie Hilly was buried in the grave that had been set aside for her many years before, next to her husband, Frank Hilly, the man that she had murdered with poison. And that is the story of Alabama's black widow, Audrey Marie Hilly.
Speaker: Would you go to the funeral? That's a hard question. And ah that's what I wanted to hear your thoughts on because Nope. nope Maybe they went to say what they wanted to say to her.
Speaker: i got nothing left to say. Yeah. Nothing. You know, what are you thinking about as your mom who tried to kill you and killed your dad... And Michael, like, he was also poisoned and his wife was poisoned. Miss Carrie. Like, get the fuck out of here. Nope.
Speaker: No. No. There's a line. They were there. That's crazy. It's a crazy story. And also let's refresh. Every trash can has a lid. John, you're the You're the lid, buddy.
Speaker: Fucking L's. Audrey Marie Hilly. The Black Widow of Alabama. What run. Yeah. Anniston, Alabama. That is literally where I went to school. Jacksonville is like 10 minutes down the road from there. I think it's, I love that you're just like diving into these stories. Going deep into Alabama stuff, man. that. Southern, Southern crime.
Speaker: I love that. They're wildly fucking entertaining. There's a show called Southern Fried True Crime. Shut the fuck up. Entertaining. They're good. I got some information from that show, too Southern Fried True Crime.
Speaker: Well. Good show today. That was good. These two. Not unlike these two stories that we did today. I mean, unlike in some senses, but hello, system failures in other senses, you know?
Speaker: Anyway, that's all we got. Sam's kind of speechless. just i They went to her funeral. Yeah, I can't get over that. wonder if the sun said, take her to hell. Rotten hell.
Speaker: Take her to hell. Yeah. All right. oh Well. Is that it? I think that's it. We hope you enjoyed the show. We did it just for you. We had fun. We started with yoga. We ended with murder.
Speaker: What else do you want from us? Multiple murders. Multiple murders, a little bit of arsenic. Some men just can't hold their arsenic. I will never miss an opportunity to say that. Well, you know.
Speaker: All right. We're here for a good time. Not a long time. Bye.
