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Free Weekly Episode - Messi Wins World Cup For Argentina, Mbappe Future GOAT, R.I.P Mihajlovic & Much More (Ep. 283)
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From Lionel Messi completing football after winning World Cup with Argentina, Kylian Mbappe's future as a potential GOAT to the Team of the tournament as well as remembering the late Sinisa Mihajlovic, Nima and Carlo discuss it all.
Every Monday episode of The Italian Football Podcast is free for all. To listen to all full episodes of The Italian Football Podcast, go to Patreon.com/TIFP to become a Patron for only $2.99 USD per month (excluding VAT).
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Italian football podcast. I'm Carlo Garganese joined as always by Nima Tavalli for our usual weekly free podcast and free Monday podcast. And today
World Cup Final: Messi vs Maradona
00:00:24
Speaker
we will be reviewing the World Cup final.
00:00:28
Speaker
Argentina are champions of the world for a third time their first since the Diego Maradona inspired 1986 World Cup victory and this time it is Lionel Messi who well has he now surpassed Maradona that is that that is the big question he was of course the hero for for Argentina two goals in the final in a an absolute
00:00:56
Speaker
epic final, the greatest World Cup final of all time. I don't think there's any doubt about that. A 3-0 draw, which, well, Argentina looked like they were cruising to victory at 2-0 with just over 10 minutes to go, then Kylian Mbappe
00:01:13
Speaker
just
Argentina vs France: The Penalty Shootout
00:01:14
Speaker
decides to single-handedly try and rescue France, and he almost managed to single-handedly win France the game. He took it to extra time, Messi scored again in extra time, he's second of the game, Mbappe scored again, he's third of the game, the first player to score a hat-trick in a World Cup final since Jeff Hurst in 1966. It was an incredible battle between the two
00:01:37
Speaker
the two best players of the tournament and the two best players of their teams and eventually went to penalties and it was Argentina who won on penalties and there is so so much to talk about on this game so we're gonna react to the final we're gonna analyze the final
00:01:55
Speaker
Then we're going to
World Cup Analysis and Italy's Hypothetical Journey
00:01:56
Speaker
look a little bit about the World Cup as a whole. We're going to do a World Cup team of the tournament. We're going to look at how well Italy could have done at this World Cup if we had actually qualified. I actually think we could have gone very, very far. We're going to look
Coaching Shifts and Rumors in Football
00:02:10
Speaker
at a few of the managers who might be moving on or who, in the case of Gareth Southgate, stay in for England. Italy play England next. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about Carlo Ancelotti possibly taking over at Brazil.
00:02:23
Speaker
And
Tribute to Sinisa Mihailovic
00:02:24
Speaker
then, of course, some very, very sad news, the death of Sinisa Mihailovic. We're going to remember his legendary career, incredible player, then a successful coach, very, very influential on Italian football as both a player and as a coach. So we're going to remember him. And then we've got a Badger and Prem face of the week, as usual, which we will finish off with. So lots to talk about. Let's get straight into it.
00:02:52
Speaker
Okay, so Argentina, world champions. As I said,
Argentina's Triumph and Tactical Critiques
00:02:59
Speaker
they won 4-2 on penalties after an epic 3-3 draw. Nima, what's your reaction to this game? Because this was an almost mythical match.
00:03:10
Speaker
Well, I mean, if we start with the game itself and the quality, and like you said, the mythology surrounding it, and that's already started, it will be, to me, this is one of the best, if not the best World Cup final that I've seen. It had everything. It really had everything. It was absolutely outstanding from start to finish. Individual brilliance, drama,
00:03:37
Speaker
It had everything, it had everything, it really did have everything. It was, and of course Mbappe and Messi going at it was the added value, the chileguina su la torta, the icing on the cake. It was fantastic, it really was. So that's more like the game itself and
00:04:01
Speaker
the drama surrounding it and what an advert, you know, what a great advertisement for the for the sport to have its biggest final be this incredible. But if we're going to talk about, you know, the game in terms of from like a tactical point of view and what was done and how and whatnot. Excuse me. Hi, Lionel
France's Challenges in the Final
00:04:26
Speaker
Scaloni.
00:04:27
Speaker
is the worst coach to have ever won the World Cup. There is no doubt about it in my mind. He is lucky twice now in this World Cup that despite his horrible read of the game, his insanely poor tactical decisions don't cost Argentina
00:04:52
Speaker
the the win and and this World Cup title they could have already gone out against the Netherlands again the same thing over and over again three games in a row or two games especially he makes his read of the game is so poor he makes changes that are so bad and not just players he brings on it's much more it's much more deeper than that
00:05:16
Speaker
But it's his tactical changes, formation changes that completely gift the game over to the opposition. I guess in the Netherlands he did it and he did it again against France in a game where Argentina dominated for 75 minutes.
00:05:36
Speaker
There was no doubt. Deschamps had no answer. France looked shell-shocked, and Deschamps tried. He made two quick substitutions. He tried shuffling things around, but they just couldn't get near Argentina until Scallone decides to go to a 3511, completely giving France the numerical advantage on the wings from which they capitalized.
00:06:05
Speaker
It was just, it was so amateurish. And it didn't cost Argentina in the end, which I think deserve to win that game. But that's more down to, you know, penalty shootouts are more luck, I would say, than they are skill, even though there is obviously skill involved. But yes, that to me is genuinely
00:06:26
Speaker
Astonishing how how poor of a tactical how poor he is tactically As a coach, he's a World Cup winner Well, he is he is I mean Trappatoni isn't and Trappatoni was a much better coach Arigosaki for sure. There's loads, you know, Louis Falcal lot lots of
00:06:50
Speaker
managers who are much better than him didn't win it, of course, but let's not pretend that Scaloni is a world-class manager. He's mediocre at best, and I think he's shown that this tournament, honestly.
00:07:05
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, luck always plays apart. I thought in this game, like you said, I thought Argentina dominated until the last 10, 15 minutes and then Mbappe just got hot. France though, I mean, I thought
00:07:21
Speaker
I considered France favorites going into this final as the bookmakers did as well, but clearly something wasn't right with France. We know that their squad has been ridden with a virus that's been going around in Qatar and has been affecting a lot of squads, but also just a lot of fans and a lot of the media. I know
00:07:45
Speaker
people that work in just generally stand you know it has been that there's been a lot of the air condition doesn't help everyone knows the air condition is very very bad for your immune system so no france france were what you could see a lot of their players they just stay which is they just they were lethargic they were flat.
00:08:03
Speaker
They didn't seem to have any energy. And I thought that they did absolutely amazing to fight back from the debt. They were completely dead. Obviously Mbappe was the big reason for that. But I have to give him credit because a lot of people, including myself, have asked questions. Is he really a good manager or is it just the fact that France, for the last
00:08:27
Speaker
four years or more have, by a long distance, I would say, had and have the best array of talent available. I mean, it's incredible. There's no country that gets even close to them in terms of the quality and depth of talent. And remember, this is a France team that was missing half their first team as well before the tournament even started. That's how much depth that they've gotten. They've still got to the final. And for them to make a comeback, and he made brave changes early, taking off Giroud and Dembele,
00:08:56
Speaker
going 4-2-4 and really taking it to Argentina. And then finishing the stronger, and if Colin Moani had scored that goal, they would have won the game and they would have won the World Cup. So I have to give credit to France as well. Mbappe is an absolute alien.
00:09:17
Speaker
just an alien. It's unbelievable what he has done. We've got a segment on him,
Messi's World Cup Victory and Controversies
00:09:22
Speaker
which we'll come to. Messi, we've got a segment on him. You have to be happy for Messi. You really do. It's the one thing that he wanted so much. It's the one thing that his whole career, he's always full and short. This is his fifth World Cup, and he's always disappointed at the World Cup until this tournament. But as you alluded to, Argentina got lucky.
00:09:43
Speaker
They didn't, let's be honest, they didn't beat anyone good in this whole tournament, Argentina. If we want to be a little bit negative and a little bit harsh in Argentina, they didn't beat anyone good. They had a very easy run to the final and the only decent teams they played, they didn't beat them. They beat them on penalties. They beat Holland on penalties. They beat Argentina on penalties and they lost to Saudi Arabia. They drew with Holland and France.
00:10:07
Speaker
you know, they've been fortunate, they've set up a record, an all-time record in the 92 years of the World Cup. No team has ever had as many penalties as Argentina have had in this World Cup and a lot of them were questionable penalty calls. I thought the penalty they got again to take the leaders, they were scandalous and this is something that
00:10:30
Speaker
I've been, you know, been arguing about for a long time. You cannot give a penalty for that in a World Cup final. You know, you just can't, you cannot give that. I mean, for me, that's not even, it's not even close to being a penalty. And, you know, they also got like, even the second, even Messi's second goal should have been disallowed. I don't know if you've seen it in the media today, Argentina had 12 players on the pitch.
00:10:51
Speaker
When when Messi scored his second goal that should have been by the rules should have been disallowed as well for the AR was doing its job properly So, you know, they got lucky they got a bit lucky as well But you know you need you do need you do at the same time do need luck to win tournaments I mean, it's the one
00:11:09
Speaker
two shootouts last year, two penalty shootouts when they won the Euros against Spain in the semis and against England in the final and also the final thing I would say is that's also why you need a great goalkeeper. I mean you say that penalties is luck and there is luck involved in penalties but I also think the most important thing in a penalty shootout more
00:11:30
Speaker
more important than your actual penalty takers is having a great goalkeeper on penalties. That is the most important thing and that isn't down to skill. That's down to having. There are some goalkeepers who are just fantastic at saving penalties and Emi Martinez, you see his record, he is an absolute monster on penalty kicks. He's fantastic on penalties where Hugo Louris, if anybody's ever followed Hugo Louris' penalties, Louris is so bad at penalties. He is horrendous. He's probably the worst goalkeeper in the tournament at penalties.
00:11:57
Speaker
He is so bad, literally all you need to do, looks at Harry Kane, is get the ball on target and you score, and you score against Hugo Louris. That is how bad he is at penalties. And I just think that if Francis had Mike Emmanuel, maybe the story could have been different with the independently shootout. So I have to give credit to Emi Martinez as well, because he made the difference in the shootout.
00:12:20
Speaker
I think with the Emi Martinez thing, I couldn't agree with you more. I think Emi Martinez is shown. When it comes to penalty shootout, ever since Copa America, you saw what he did there and how he won that final four, Argentina. You've seen at this tournament as well, he is a monster the way that he goes on.
00:12:46
Speaker
or just the way he prepares. I think that's not by chance that kind of thing. I think that is skill involved. And he is very good at that. His reaction is reading of body language and all that stuff. I mean, even on Mbappe's penalty in the shootout, he was on the ball, even though he was anywhere near in the other two penalties France got. So there is absolute skill involved. But I do think it's more luck than skill when it comes to penalty shootout.
00:13:15
Speaker
As for Argentina, them being favored by the referees, I'm sorry, I don't agree with that. I really don't agree with that. I think if anything, the first game against Saudi Arabia as well showed that some of the goals were actually onside and we've seen images of that as well. I don't think they were
00:13:35
Speaker
There was a concerted effort to get Argentina to win. I don't think there's any evidence of that at all. As for the penalty, I do think when I first saw it, it was absolutely my belief that that's a very, very soft penalty.
00:13:53
Speaker
But when there was another angle when you see that Dembele actually, he touches Demaria's foot so that he flies on his own foot and he trips over after that. I think he falls very easily. I don't think it's a scandal, but I do think it's a soft penalty.
00:14:08
Speaker
But then again, France got two penalties as well. It is exactly like the England discussion. You can't say that France were, you know, were robbed by the referees when they got two penalties in a final. Yeah, but it's a different dynamic when it's 0-0, isn't it? The first goal in a game is always the most decisive, always. It's always the goal, especially when it's a shot. Well, it is. When it's 0-0.
00:14:33
Speaker
I don't think it depends on when it is. This was not in the 90th minute. Yes, if they got that penalty in the 90th minute, then of course it's the dynamic matters. But they didn't. It was pretty early in the first half or it was mid first half. Well, the way I look at it, there were five penalties. Argentina got five penalties in this World Cup. Well, I don't care. Listen, let me finish. Which is an all time record. Which is an all time record. For me, you may disagree. For me and lots of people that I've spoken to agree with me, three of those five penalties were not penalties.
00:15:04
Speaker
Whether you want to call that luck or whether you want to call that being favored, whether you want to call it subconsciously messy, his last World Cup, people want to give it to him, whatever you want to call it, that's up to the listener, that's up to the fans to decide. Argentina got luck in this World Cup. There's no doubt about that. There's no doubt about that things went their way in decisive moments.
00:15:31
Speaker
I don't think anyone would deny that. And I just spoke about why I think Lionel Scallone is by far the luckiest and worst coach to have ever won the World Cup. So that's definitely part of it. But I'm not going to go. This isn't the 2002 World Cup, which was a joke. I mean, even more than Italy, Spain were actually robbed against South Korea in the 2002 World Cup.
00:15:57
Speaker
having a perfectly good goal disallowed. There were so many dodgy things going on in that World Cup. This is not that. I don't think the three of the five penalties were outrageous. I think one was incorrect. I think the Poland one is just... I still don't understand that.
00:16:15
Speaker
The other ones, I think one is debatable, but the rest are not. I think it's some soft penalties, but it goes in line. I'll go back to what I've said. Everybody knows I'm a traditionalist, so I don't say this lightly when I say this.
00:16:33
Speaker
They need to look at penalties and changing, finding something else other than penalties. I know that will sound absolutely mad to people that have grown up. I know that will sound mad to people that have grown up with there always being a penalty for a foul in the area. I totally understand that because it goes against the foundations of football and what you've always expected and people get very upset and feel very threatened by that.
00:16:58
Speaker
But
Penalty Rules in Football: Fair or Not?
00:16:59
Speaker
I say it and I say it again, a penalty is too much of a reward for a foul in the area. It's too much. The probability of scoring a penalty depending on where you go is between 0.78 and 0.8 xg. So you're going to score 78 to 80% of the time that you get a penalty. That is too much of a reward for a foul in the area where most of the time the overwhelming majority of occasions when there's a foul in the penalty area
00:17:25
Speaker
The XG, the probability of actually scoring from that moment where the foul is made, is so low. It's minuscule. And if you take where the foul was made, say, in the semifinal for the Argentina game against Croatia, there was like a 0.05 chance of Alvarez scoring from that opportunity. And then it becomes, I think we both agreed it was a 50-50, whether that could have been given.
00:17:55
Speaker
that penalty. So for a 50-50 foul, Argentina will nil and they'll nil. Even if it's 60-40, whatever, even if it's 60-40, you're getting rewarded from a 0.05 XG.
00:18:12
Speaker
Yeah, you get rewarded from a 0.05 XG to a 0.8 XG. The reward, even if it's a 64, even if it's a 70-30, this is why I always say, and I bang on this drum all the time, if a penalty is given in a World Cup, especially in a World Cup final, which is such a huge game, and this is not just me being against Argentina. I'd say this if it was the other way around. I didn't really care who won the final. I mean, yes, maybe slightly wanted France because I'm a Maradona diehard, but I'm not really that fast who won it.
00:18:41
Speaker
You know, it's too much of a reward. You can't give a penalty unless it's absolutely no doubt about it. It's a penalty because the reward is too big. The penalty, getting a penalty, the reward is too much. There's too much of a reward. And this is why I think something needs to be looked at it. Well, the thing is, I think one of the things that I do agree with is that maybe that there should be a penalty area within the penalty area.
00:19:09
Speaker
from which fouls within that area gives you a penalty and fouls outside of that area gives you a free kick. Because I think that's something to look at, because I agree with you. I think if somebody's just on the line of the penalty area, they're without an angle to score.
00:19:29
Speaker
and they grab the ball by the hand or they foul clumsily the player, that being equated to doing that when you're in front of the goal and you've got all the goal to place that in, there's a discrepancy there. I do agree with that. I absolutely agree with that. I mean, I don't have the answer, Nimr. I'm just suggesting. I agree. I see the point. I think the problem you're describing is real. I do see the point of it and I kind of agree.
00:19:59
Speaker
But I think that's something that football needs to look at because I agree with you. I mean, whether or not it's XG or however you want to measure it, I think just by looking at the naked eye, when you've got a player that is on the edge there,
00:20:15
Speaker
that compared to, I mean, I think it should matter where the foul takes place in the penalty area, whether or not it's a penalty. And I think maybe one way to do that is maybe to enlarge, you know, to make, to create a third line in the penalty area, not just where the goalkeeper is, but, you know, slightly bigger and say, look, penalties in this area are penalties, penalties outside of this area are free, fouls are free kicks. Direct free kicks. Yeah. Direct free kicks. Yeah.
00:20:40
Speaker
That, I think, is something they could do. You can just have two extra lines by the side of the penalty area, so that only when you're closer to the goal, you've got a better angle. That's when it's an actual goal-scoring opportunity, and that's why it should be a free kick. Something like that. I mean, there's ways around this, but I do think that that's a valid point. I really do, because especially nowadays, when this football has evolved,
00:21:05
Speaker
These penalties cost a lot. Like you said, there's a bigger chance when you're alone with a goalkeeper 11 metres out in the middle with a ball centrally to score than it is when you're in the corner and
00:21:21
Speaker
you know like like we've seen many situations like that i think that's that's a really good point i like this idea much better than that insane idea you had of people running from well i wasn't ever i'm not i wasn't ever saying that that's the solution i was saying i i admit openly i don't have a solution i don't know maybe it's you i mean you just went so badly i literally felt like i wanted to
00:21:42
Speaker
die when you said I was like, why did it listen? Yeah, you didn't listen to my to my to my grievance because you just looked at the just thought. Yes, it did. I wanted to I wanted to die because I remember watching that in the like, I think it was a mid late 90s. And I remember cringing and thinking this is so horrible. It's like watching six year olds play. And it is
00:22:05
Speaker
No, no, I don't know. I don't know what the solution is. You know, it could be what you said. It could be like, you know, you have direct free kicks or you have another penalty area within a penalty area. It could be the MLS option. It could be, you know, who knows? I will hunger strike outside of FIFA's offices if that happens. That's not, don't ruin football. Please don't ruin football. Don't turn it into a, don't turn it into a, into a sideshow. That, that, oh my God. I just,
00:22:33
Speaker
Oh, I just, that clip, I'm going to share it. That's what you want. That's what, that's what Carla wants. Yeah, no, I think, I think, I think, I think quite, I did quite like it actually. I thought there's a lot more skill.
00:22:48
Speaker
Well, there's a lot more skill involved on both the attackers part and the goalkeepers part from that, than there is in a penalty. But yeah, it's just, I just don't like games, especially big games, especially big knockout games, getting ruined by, and decided by, by, you know, these kinds of incidents, you know, take the 1990 World Cup Final, for example, that was a Neil Neil, which was, there was barely a shot in the entire game. And let me be first to say that nobody, like everybody wanted that Argentina to do, they were a horrible team.
00:23:17
Speaker
were awful team, awful team that just kicked and cheated and penalty shoot out penalty shoot outed their way to use a word that doesn't exist their way to the final. And there was nothing in that final at all. Not even a single shot from Brazil, except for Maradona. No, no, no. Yeah, except for Brazil. But I mean, in that final, there was nothing like the worst, worst workout final ever to be played. Yeah, neither team even had a chance or a shot.
00:23:41
Speaker
yet he
Infamous World Cup Moments
00:23:42
Speaker
gets decided by a penalty that was a dive and was never a penalty in a billion years. And the game gets decided by because, you know, and he was going away from goal. And do you know what I mean? So it's, I just, I just, the worst, the worst World Cup final that has ever been played as Italian 90. I'm sorry. It is absolutely atrocious.
00:24:01
Speaker
it was genuinely unwatchable. And both teams made it unwatchable. It wasn't just Argentina who were there for fouling. I mean, Cleansman's diving and Fuller's diving. Well, because of that, they changed the offside rule because of that, because they wanted the game to become more and more attacking. And that's a reason why they won't get rid of this penalty. They'll never, ever revise the penalty, a penalty, because
00:24:24
Speaker
they don't they want more goals they want more chaos they don't want they don't want to you know take it back to go backwards so that that will never happen but it's just one of my one of my pet haters i do agree i think i think what you raise is a very valid point i think it's very valid like it should depend the penalty area is really really big and where things happen i think they should be
00:24:46
Speaker
I'm not in favor of making the penalty area smaller, but I do think there should be nuances because I think there is a huge difference between being fouled when you're straight on goal with the entire goal open to you and being in the corner when you've got no angle. I think there's a huge difference there.
00:25:00
Speaker
It also depends on what kind of infringement it is as well, you know, not just where it is in the area like you've explained, but also, you know, what kind of, you know, if there's 15 players in the box and a corner comes in and it just hits a player, like, you know, it hits a player on the hand or something, you know, and you give a penalty for it, but you're never going to score from it at all. If you are going to score from it, then yeah, you know, so yeah, I think it needs to be looked at, I know it won't be,
00:25:30
Speaker
But there we go. And one thing that also is creating a lot of debate is Messi. Now he has basically completed football. He's won every major trophy, club and country that there is to win. And for a long time, obviously, we've had this Maradona versus Messi debate. We debated it on the
Messi vs Maradona: The GOAT Debate
00:25:53
Speaker
show last week or the week before.
00:25:54
Speaker
And the one thing that was holding Messi back, certainly in terms of trophies, was the fact that Maradona, or sorry, Messi had never won the World Cup. In fact, until last year, he'd never even won a major international trophy, only the Olympics, which is with the other 23 team. He won the Copper America, and now he's won the World Cup. So the question is, and a lot of people are debating this, has, in your opinion, has Messi now surpassed Maradona? Is he the goat?
00:26:24
Speaker
Well, we discussed this a little while ago. We spoke hypothetically, if you should win, and I'm just going to echo my answer then and there. When it comes to personal accolades, when it comes to what you've won in terms of career, Messi has completed football. He's done it. There's nothing left for him to do. He's done everything.
00:26:47
Speaker
If you look at the sheer individual performance in a World Cup, and back then in 86, that's where the best football in the world was played. It was at the World Cup, the best players were there.
00:26:58
Speaker
It's different now. It's in the Champions League, and maybe some would argue in the Premier League. So it's different now than then. But then, back then, when the best players in the world met every four years, Diego Maradona performed at a level that has never been played at before or since when Argentina won that tournament. He was by far
00:27:22
Speaker
the best, he gave the best performance ever seen at the world's biggest stage in that tournament. And like I said, if you go back and watch 86, all of Argentina's games, go look at what he does and go look at the amount of chances Argentina missed after magical work from him and creativity and build up.
00:27:48
Speaker
So for me, Maradona and also the time of football, the age that it was played, attacking players were not protected like they are now. Defenders were ruthless. I mean, it was some of them are borderline assaults, some of the things that the defenders tried to do to stop Maradona and technical players. But now it's not like that.
00:28:14
Speaker
But having said that, I think Argentina have a better team overall today than they had in 1986. I think Maradona literally was the difference of the reason they won that World Cup. I think Argentina are a better side overall, better squad today than in 1986.
00:28:33
Speaker
And there was no luck involved either, was there? So for me, Maradona will always be the GOAT. But I mean, again, this is all subjective because you can argue with just as much the other way. I respect that. I completely respect people who say Lionel Messi is the greatest because I think there's lots of valid points there as well.
00:28:50
Speaker
If we're talking about simply an international team, then for me, there's no doubt it's Maradona. There's no doubt about that for me. What he did in 1986, as you said it, with one of the worst Argentina teams there's ever been, and I'm sorry, I don't care what anybody says, I'm going to repeat that over and over again. That was a really poor Argentina team, just to look through the squad.
00:29:13
Speaker
go through the squad, have a look at, you know, none of those, very few of those players ever had top club careers. None of them played for, virtually none of them played for the top European clubs. Valdano was good at Real Madrid, but he was nothing amazing. Butochaga was a good player, but, you know, he didn't have an amazing club career, played in France. Ruggieri was a good defender. I think he spent one or two years at Madrid without success.
00:29:42
Speaker
you know, there wasn't really very, very little, to be honest with you, and you know, Maradona did that.
00:29:50
Speaker
completely single-handedly. Having said that, Messi was amazing in this tournament. I'm not going to take anything away. At 35, his longevity is definitely better than Maradona's. I thought he was very, very poor in these other four World Cups, whereas Maradona was excellent in 82 until they got knocked out. He was excellent in the group stages until they got knocked out in the second group stage.
00:30:14
Speaker
in 1990 he wasn't outstanding but he was their leader and he had that moment of genius against Brazil and he took them to the final and then he started really well in 94 until he got kicked out. So I think that what Maradona did for Argentina absolutely surpasses what Messi did. If you then bring in the club angle then well yeah
00:30:37
Speaker
you know, what Messi did for Argentina, for Barcelona, probably no players ever done more for one club than Messi did for Barcelona. Absolute genius. But then, you know, Maradona, he, you know, he did it for, again, for a smaller team, for a small team, and we could even almost call them Napoli, really, they were. They were just avoided relegation when Maradona went there, and then he took them to
00:31:03
Speaker
they still bought some other outstanding players, but they would no way would have been able to challenge for a Scudetto or for the UEFA Cup, which was in many ways better than the Champions League back then, because it had all the, you know, Champions League was only for the European Cup, was only for the winners of the league championships around Europe, whereas the UEFA Cup had the second, third, fourth, fifth place in many leagues. So it was almost like the Champions
The Decline of International Football Quality
00:31:28
Speaker
League was the UEFA Cup back then.
00:31:31
Speaker
You know, and as you said, yeah, Argentina, much better team today than they were back then. And also, you know, that Argentina team, if you take the hand of God goal aside, take that out of the equation, and we saw what Maradon did with the second goal afterwards, if you take that aside, you know, Argentina, they weren't lucky at all during that tournament, you know, whereas, as we've already discussed in the show earlier, you know, Argentina had a lot hell of a lot of luck this tournament with penalties, with
00:31:59
Speaker
with penalty shootouts, with, you know, Argentina didn't need any penalty shootouts to win. In fact, I don't even know if they had a penalty in the, in the, in the, in 1986. I can't, off the top of my head, I can't remember maybe unless they had one in the groups. I don't think they even got a penalty. So, so yeah. Yeah.
00:32:18
Speaker
I'm biased. Listen, I have to be honest, I'm biased. I'm a Maradona guy. You know, Maradona is my hero. I'm always going to say Maradona. So there is bias involved there. Of course, of course. My family's from Naples as well. So, you know, I'm always going to say Maradona. I am biased. But, you know, I think that, you know, also everybody that knows me knows that I think that I think this is a very important point, as you also said, that football, certainly international football,
00:32:46
Speaker
was way, way stronger back in the 80s and the 90s and up until the first half of the last decade, not the last decade, we're now in 2022, of the of the noughties, up until about 2006. I think after that, international football really started to decline big time. You know, so when Maradona was winning the World Cup in 86, he was, you know, this was international football when it was really at its best. And now I think international football
00:33:14
Speaker
has declined a hell of a lot. If I compare any of the top international teams now to what they were even 20 years ago, I think it's very hard to find one big nation that's better now than it was 20 years ago. I don't know if you could even find one, to be honest with you. I don't think England are better today than they were then.
00:33:37
Speaker
And I know that a lot of the Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard generation won't like that, but I do think that England are better today. I really think this, the sheer... I'm not sure. Both in depth and both in terms of depth and the height of how good they are attacking wise. I think this team is, I really like this team. I really do. I think they have a better goalkeeper, but that's not very difficult, to be honest. I think they're,
00:34:05
Speaker
maybe defenders, I'd agree, okay, Rio Ferdinand and John Terry were world-class, none of these defenders are world-class. Also, it was Ashley Karl. Ashley Karl was one of the best in the world. I think those three all get in the England team. I would pick even an old David Seaman. I would pick an old David Seaman over Jordan Pickford as well. No, I think Ramsdale and Pickford, I rate them, I really do. But I think the sheer attack, the sheer firepower attack, with all due respect to Alan Shearer,
00:34:34
Speaker
I sure had already retired by then, but yeah. Yeah, but you know what I mean? Like Harry Kane is just when he's at his best. I think that England team was better than this one personally, but I think that England look better now because also partly because the competition is weaker as well. I think if you put this England team in the 2000 and
00:34:57
Speaker
Euro 2000 or 98 World Cup or 2002 World Cup, or even 2006 World Cup. This England team wouldn't be any of the big nations, none of them. Whereas now, you'd favour them. Really? I think they would. Would they be Brazil? Would they be Argentina? If they had Ashley Cole and Terry Ferdinand in defence,
00:35:18
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, but I'm talking about this team. If you took this England team from 2022 and put it in the 2006 World Cup, would they be Italy? Would they be Argentina? Would they be Brazil? Would they be France? They would lose to all of them. Yes, but so did that England team in 2006. I mean, I think there are better sides than that 2016. Yes, I do think that. Now, how well would they compare to those other nations?
00:35:42
Speaker
That's a different topic altogether. But for me, I think England have improved. But forgetting about England, the point remains that this Argentina team, is it better than the Argentina 2016? No. No chance.
00:35:59
Speaker
Absolutely zero chance. Yeah, that's difficult to say. So that kind of says it all. But I mean, it depends on which countries you mean as topside. Some would argue England is not a topside. Some would say they are. I mean, I think Argentina, France, Italy, Brazil, Germany, these are the topside. And then you have England, Spain. Yeah, exactly. And I'm not taking anything away from them. It depends on your definition of a topside.
00:36:27
Speaker
But, I mean, for me, it's for those who've won World Cups, more than won World Cup, is for me a top, traditionally a top side, top country. Okay, let's move on, because we're going on and on.
00:36:41
Speaker
Well, for me, he was mad at the match. I mean, he was unbelievable because he single handedly, single handedly, uh, kept France in this game when it looked like it was, they looked like they were completely dead and he scores a hat trick. I mean, eight goals, top goalscorer. Yeah.
Mbappe's World Cup Legacy
00:36:57
Speaker
Top goalscorer of eight goals. I mean, for me, he can become
00:37:02
Speaker
the World Cup goat. We're talking about is Messi the goat, but for Mbappe, I think all he needs is one more decent, not even outstanding tournament, Mbappe. He's going to have at least three. Think about it. He's 23 now. He'll turn 24 soon. He can play till he's 36. That's three more World Cup tournaments.
00:37:21
Speaker
Well, I think definitely two. I think definitely two World Cups, but I honestly think that even if he just plays decent in his next tournament, that would be enough to make him the greatest World Cup player of all time because he's got 12 goals already in 14 games, which is exactly the same total as Pele. He's now only four goals behind Miroslav Klose, who has the all-time World Cup record of 16 goals.
00:37:43
Speaker
As we said, 23 years old, he'll be 27 at the next World Cup, so he'll be in the absolute prime of his career. He's the first player to score a hat trick in a final since Jeff Hurst in 1966, and I just think what he did yesterday was just unbelievable. France were awful and he single-handedly, like I said, dragged the dead horse. Really?
00:38:06
Speaker
dead horse along the ground, intellectual time, and almost to the promised land. And he scored in two World Cup finals. Only four others have done that. Those are Pele, Paul Breitner, Bava, and Zimdin Zidane. And now he has four World Cup final goals because he also scored it four years ago, which is already the most. He's already scored more goals in a World Cup final than any player in history already, and he's 23.
00:38:33
Speaker
and he's the first to score eight goals in a World Cup since the great Ronaldo. He's also probably the most similar player to R9. I was just going to say, I think for me, he's like a mix of all of these, of R9, CR7 and Pele.
00:38:51
Speaker
Like he's got a little bit of all of them. He's not the kind of messy Maradona number 10 at all. And those are usually the ones where people consider to be the greatest of all time. Rightfully so, I think, because they're so complete. But players like Arnein and Pele, Cristiano Ronaldo, they're murderers in the penalty box.
00:39:16
Speaker
their finishing is through the roof, their killer instinct, the way that they go at the goal like a heat-seeking missile. And of course, there's technique involved in that as well. I'm not saying that these guys are tap-in merchants. That's not what I'm saying at all. They're incredible. I mean, R9's individual technique is right up there with the best of all time.
00:39:38
Speaker
But I really think that he could become the World Cup goat. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended his career with two, three World Cup wins simply because of what he showed in this tournament.
00:39:52
Speaker
how he can drag France through. And I honestly think that this France was, if we're looking as a whole, as a team, which team was the best in the World Cup? I think France was the best team in the World Cup. And Mbappe works, is the added value of that team. He takes them to their next step, and I agree with you, that second goal he does, that he scores,
00:40:22
Speaker
I mean, it's just... When he went on that run, he went on a run right at the end, where he like, twisted and turned, and then the tightest spaces immeasurable, probably took on three plays, and somebody just got a block in. I mean, if that would have been the end that ends all endings, that would have been, you know what I mean? Score a poker in a World Cup final after something like that is insane. And no, one thing though, as a side note, Marcus Turan and Kylian Mbappe,
00:40:50
Speaker
Now, that is something to build on for France in the future, because Turam's link-up play, he's got great technique, he's quick. Those two will have a lot of fun for the French national team moving forward. Now that Giroud is too old, he'll be too old, he's going to probably retire within the next two, three years, at least at the highest level. Ben Zamais isn't exactly getting any younger,
00:41:18
Speaker
Benzema won't be allowed back in either, and if Deschamps stays, only if Sadat comes, Benzema will come back in. Yeah, and he's not getting any younger either. So for me, Marcus Turan,
00:41:29
Speaker
France has so much talent, though. I mean, remember, they had Oon Kun Koo. He's an incredible talent. Exactly. That's another player. That's another player. But Turam, for me, Turam and Mbappe, that's going to give French fans a lot of happiness moving forward if Turam has just a normal career trajectory, because Mbappe is crazy. What a monster he is.
00:41:54
Speaker
He's insane. I also liked how he blanked Macaron at the end as well. That gave him extra marks for me. Yeah, me too. Those of us who've lived and seen the pinnacle and peak of CR7 versus Messi when they used to go at each other,
00:42:17
Speaker
It was fantastic, but a part of me is a bit sad that we don't get to see Messi, VM, Bapi, because just that World Cup final alone. Well, that was certainly enough yesterday. I mean, can you just think that if they could go at it the way every weekend we knew, Cristiano Ronaldo is going to do something amazing and Messi is going to retort, or Messi is going to do something magical and Ronaldo is going to retort.
00:42:46
Speaker
that dynamic where they pushed each other. I don't think it'll be, I think it'll be in Mbappe versus Holland. It is, but Ehrling Horland is not messy. And that's what I mean. The dynamic we saw yesterday between those two, how they pushed each other, that's something if I could, you know, if I could adjust their ages to be a little bit more closer to each other, so we could have witnessed those two going at it.
00:43:12
Speaker
Well, there's Phil Foden, according to Jason Cundee, there's Phil Foden. And I like Phil Foden, but like, stop. Okay, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. But anyway, anyway, just to finish off the World Cup fire, there was more controversy, there's always controversy. Just to finish the World Cup where we started, which was
00:43:35
Speaker
people, you know, say from the West, the MSM from the West. Mainstream media. Yeah. Because you sounded like you said S&M. No, no, no. Mainstream media, MSM. Well, if it's got three letters, it's generally bad. That's what it usually is. I just wanted to clarify.
00:44:05
Speaker
They weren't happy. They weren't happy about Messi getting this bist put on him by the emir of Qatar.
00:44:15
Speaker
to before he lifted the World Cup. So can you just, just for those listening, can you just explain number one, what it is and number two, what all the controversy is about? As I'm sure you agree with, I'm sure you agree with them. Yeah, of course, especially certain Spanish Irish buffoons who have the IQ of a dead sewer rat and it was like debating Karl Pilkington's twin.
00:44:40
Speaker
But anyway, what it is, is a robe that one wears in the Arab world, not just in Qatar.
00:44:50
Speaker
in mostly Arabic, Middle Eastern countries at momentous occasions, like weddings and highlights of one's life. And the one that he was given was as a sign of respect and an acknowledgement of him being almost a football royalty, if you will.
00:45:15
Speaker
And it's also a cultural thing in the Middle East and North Africa that usually when you have a foreign guest visit you and at the end of that visit you gift them something traditional from your culture so that to remember you by. That's all that was. But of course the usual hacks have to
00:45:40
Speaker
have to politicize everything and take everything out of context and turn it into something it wasn't, demeaning it, saying it was a dressing gown, someone call it what women wear in a Victoria's Secret catalog, this kind of demeaning, diminishing, dehumanizing tone, which is borderline racist, if we're perfectly honest.
00:46:10
Speaker
is what they did, and they don't care about what it means culturally. And some people claimed that it's not about what it was, it was the fact that who gave it to him. Well, no, that's completely irrelevant because at every other
00:46:29
Speaker
you know, the World Cup is held in Qatar and the head of state of Qatar will be there at this occasion, regardless of if you agree with who that head of state is and why he is the head of state and how he maintains his power as head of state is a completely different topic altogether and people conflate
00:46:52
Speaker
always, especially when it comes to Middle East and North Africa and the Arabic world, they always do this in the mainstream media in the West. They equate and they conflate the cultural issues, the cultural expressions with the state, and those are not the same thing.
00:47:11
Speaker
The people of those countries and the people of every country and the traditions and culture that they have and the history they have and the traditional expressions that they have is not the same as the state or the government that governs them.
00:47:28
Speaker
It's just not true. You can't equate an entire people with who governs them because most of the time those people who govern them are not elected by those being governed. It's ridiculous. This notion that you can't even for one second entertain the idea that not everything is political
00:47:56
Speaker
at all is really exhausting. But again, there's a reason they do this. There's a reason they do that, and that's because whether or not it's Danish state TV as a joke equating Moroccan players celebrating with their mothers, with apes holding families, holding their children, their offspring, as we saw over the weekend, which went viral,
00:48:24
Speaker
or whatever it can be. People all over the world can relate to human emotion. When they like an underdog story, people saw Morocco, they saw how they celebrated with their families, they liked Morocco, they fell in love with that.
00:48:48
Speaker
And because it resonates, it's a human emotion, right? And we humans, regardless of if we live in the United States, in Sweden, in Uganda, in Australia, wherever we live, we as humans can relate to human emotion, right? And what the World Cup did was make people
00:49:05
Speaker
They look at the Muslim world in a much more positive light. Now, that doesn't mean that Qatar as a state is not an autocratic state. Of course it is, and that they have human rights violations all the time. Again, don't conflate and equate a state with a people and the culture. That's stupid.
00:49:27
Speaker
And that's what they do, and they don't understand that what they do is Orientalism. It's the suspicion making of everything of a group of people from a certain part of the world as, this is your leader, this is who you are, which is stupid, because that would mean that
00:49:48
Speaker
Just in Trudeau, it represents all Canadians. That means Wishi Sunak and Boris Boris Johnson are the same as the British public, and so on and so forth. That is stupid. That is entirely stupid. That's not the reality. And they keep doing this time and time and time again. And of course, there's Islamophobia involved.
00:50:16
Speaker
And they weaponize LGBT rights and try to pit Muslims against gay people, which is ridiculous in and of itself. And this nonsense, divisive, toxic rhetoric to divide people across every ethnic and gender and gender identity, sexual identity, to pit them against each other. That's what they do.
00:50:41
Speaker
That's all they care about. They don't care about anything else because they don't report in an honest, contextualized manner. If you want to criticize, this entire debate about Qatar boils down to this for me. If you think Qatar is unfit to host a World Cup because they're so uniquely evil, then surely,
00:51:07
Speaker
Germany signing
Qatar World Cup: Cultural Critiques and Perceptions
00:51:08
Speaker
an agreement with Qatar during the World Cup to buy liquefied gas from them for billions of euros should also should probably not be allowed either as you're kind of arming and as you're kind of paying into that country and that state sorry not country that state that is so evil.
00:51:26
Speaker
At halftime between Iran and the United States, the Biden administration announced a billion-dollar arms deal that they're going to sell to the Qatari state. Surely, if Qatar is that evil, they shouldn't be able to host the World Cup. We shouldn't be selling them weapons for the tune of $1 billion. That's the context in which they don't want to talk about.
00:51:46
Speaker
And they call it whataboutism, the irony of course being that their entire narrative begins from whataboutism. They want to talk about this and not about that. And when you point that out and ask them for at least an ounce, a scintilla of intellectual honesty,
00:52:01
Speaker
they clutch their pearls and pretend that you're the one being the water Baptist. It's disgusting. It's genuinely disgusting. They are the biggest hypocrites of all. There's no doubt about that. And that's been shown, I think, at this World Cup. I would love to carry on this discussion. I just want to finish this off, though. I just want to finish this off, though, that I know so many of our patrons and listeners who were negatively
00:52:30
Speaker
going into this World Cup were negatively had a negative attitude of this World Cup. But many, many who have privately DMed me and publicly said that because of what happened at this World Cup, because of everything surrounding it, the way that it was organized, the lack of
00:52:45
Speaker
you know, fighting and drunk debauchery and Morocco's runs and all of that. They actually think this, and of course the final and all that, that they actually think this was the best World Cup ever. And that to me is beautiful. That's enough for me.
00:53:00
Speaker
No arrests from England fans. First time in history that no England fans coerced it. That's a trophy to take home for England. Along with the Fair Play trophy. Fair Play trophy, yeah. No, but listen, it's...
00:53:17
Speaker
This is what the World Cup is, and as I read that message from a friend of mine who I went to uni with and his son, and how they visited, how they viewed the World Cup, and this is what the World Cup is all about. And it has, despite their best efforts to demonize, delegitimize, and dehumanize the entire Middle East, they have failed.
00:53:38
Speaker
because people find them weird. The overwhelming majority of people, if you look, find this rhetoric divisive, toxic and pathetic and think that you're the ones with the problem, stay at home next time and leave the rest of us to watch it. And that is incredibly encouraging to me, at least.
00:54:00
Speaker
Okay, right. We have to move on because we're way over. Very, very quickly, World Cup team of the tournament. I'm going to read out my mind and you can tell me what you would change. So, in goal, I've gone for Livakovic from Croatia, although we could probably put Emi Martinez for the two penalty shootouts. Hakimi Sais,
00:54:19
Speaker
from Morocco, Gvadio, from Croatia. Left back, I literally could barely find a decent left back in the whole tournament. I've gone Theo Hernandez from France, even though I thought he was poor against England and even worse against Argentina in the final.
00:54:36
Speaker
Amrabbat, Griezmann for sure, as two of my three semi-fielders. I did have Bellingham, but I do feel like Enzo Fernandez, or McAllister, probably deserves it. So I'm probably going to chuck out Bellingham, although I thought he was outstanding as well. And then up front, Messi and Vape, absolutely no doubt. And then the other forward, I'm not sure, maybe Julian Alvarez from Argentina as well, maybe.
00:54:58
Speaker
I have no problems with that lineup. I think Bono, Moroccan goalkeeper, was really impressive as well. Teo, you have to go with Teo, because for the lack of left-backs, Akumya was alright, but Teo was better than him overall in the tournament. As for the midfield, Amrabbat for sure, Griezmann for sure, and Enzo for me.
00:55:22
Speaker
I've fallen in love with Enzo Fernandez. I have really, really, really like him. But I do got to give a shout out for Brozovic as well. I think Brozovic had a fantastic moment. Absolutely outstanding. And of course, Messi and Bapia up front. I think Julian Alvarez is a fair shout.
00:55:43
Speaker
I would maybe, I really like Bukayo Saka as well. I thought he was outstanding when he played. Maybe play with a 4-9. Giroud as well, obviously. Yeah, Giroud. We have to give it to Giroud as well. Absolutely. He's been really, really good. But yeah, no, I think that's fair enough. That's a good team.
00:56:03
Speaker
Yeah, okay. Right, so let's move on. Italy obviously not in this World Cup. Now that we've seen that the World Cup is over, we've seen how the how everyone done, how the big teams done. How well do you think Italy could have done at this World Cup if we had just qualified? As a naturally fan, I'm annoyed as hell, because I think Italy could have won this World Cup.
00:56:27
Speaker
I really do. I know people are going to say, oh, you're biased and whatnot. But no, no, no, I really think Italy could have won this World Cup. I look at these teams and I don't think Italy are significantly, if not stronger than they're certainly not significantly weaker than any of them. They're on the same level as all of them. And it annoys me. I'm not saying they would have won the World Cup. I don't think Italy will ever.
00:56:54
Speaker
be able to win two tournaments in a row, because we know the Italian mentality. As soon as Italy won a tournament, they automatically think they're senators of the Roman Empire, return home from glory, and they start to do all these charades in front of each other, and then they fail immediately and fall flat on their face. I mean, that's just part of the Italian psyche. It is what it is.
00:57:14
Speaker
And Italy is like Sven said, you've got to love it. You've got to love it as it is. You're not going to change it. It's just never going to happen. It's Italy. And the Italian mentality is fantastic. And I love it. So I don't think Italy is ever going to win two tournaments in a row. But I do think that they could have probably gotten to a semifinal and maybe a medal for sure.
00:57:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I really do think so. I mean, I watched this tournament and there was no outstanding team in this tournament. There's no team that stood out and I thought, you know what?
00:57:50
Speaker
I really fear playing those. If Italy were in this tournament, I would really fear playing them. There really wasn't. I mean, in terms of actual quality in the team, the talent, there's only one squad that I think is absolutely head and shoulders above the rest, and that is France. But even France was significantly weakened in this tournament because they had so many.
00:58:10
Speaker
so many injuries, so many, half their first team was missing before the tournament even started. And then obviously as the tournament went on, they lost, they lost Lucas Fernandez. I mean, just thinking the final, they were playing Camavinga and midfielder was playing at left back.
00:58:25
Speaker
you know, when they took off Teo. I mean, France were Teo Hernandez injury away or suspension away in the tournament from just complete disaster, basically. You know, so there was, you know, Argentina, I thought, you know, very, very beatable. We saw that, you know, they wrote their luck at times.
00:58:42
Speaker
and you know, I look all around and I think Holland got to the quarter finals and I think they're a very, very poor team. Holland, you know, Brazil. A mediocre team who were brilliantly coached. Very meaningfully coached. I mean, Brazil.
00:58:57
Speaker
Yeah, Brazil, Brazil. Brilliant team poorly coached. Yeah, but even Brazil, Brazil beatable because, you know, even if you break down Brazil, you know, their fullbacks are, they're two fullbacks, Danilo and Alexandro, two players that Juventus fans have been pulling their hair over for the last two years because they offer nothing going forward. They've got a Tottenham reserve, a Tottenham reserve playing at the striker.
00:59:25
Speaker
You know, I mean, you know, and then they lost Gabriel Jesus. So there are weaknesses. But we have to be honest here as to calling Rishalis on a top-number reserve. You have to put an asterisk and that asterisk is of Antonio Conte. And Antonio Conte wouldn't have mattered if Rishalis on it scored eight goals, three goals in the World Cup final had won it. He'd still be benched for Koulousevski because that's just content. Like it's just for sure.
00:59:48
Speaker
I love the man. I love the man. I know, but rate him, but judge him as an actual player. No, fair enough. He's not a top player. Even if you look at him at Everton, I'm looking at his stats now. He scored 10 goals last season for Everton. He's scored seven goals the season before. The most he's ever scored is 13 in a season, in five years.
01:00:10
Speaker
in the Premier League. Thirteen was the most he's ever scored. Five, thirteen, thirteen, seven, ten. This isn't a top player, and that's their starting striker for Brazil. Again, I think Brazil beatable team. There's lots of good teams in this tournament, but I don't think there's anyone that's really outstanding, to be honest with you. I think England, very, very solid team.
01:00:33
Speaker
not sure about their coach, and they're very too conservative. You know, and again, I look at Italy's midfield, they're center midfield, and I think, you know, with the exception of Spain, Italy are dominating the midfield against every team they play against. Croatia, okay, Croatia got that outstanding midfield, but Croatia have got absolutely nothing at all in attack, completely impotent in attack. They just don't, they just don't hurt teams going forward at all. So, you know, I think, yeah, I think Italy could have done well on it. That, that is frustrating. It's really, really frustrating, because I think we've got
01:01:02
Speaker
We've got the quality and we could have done, we definitely could have done really well here. Agreed. I agree 100%. Nothing more time. Okay. Right. So we, right. I was going to discuss about Gareth Southgate staying on it as England coach. We can just briefly do that. We can just briefly do that. Okay. Very, very quickly.
01:01:25
Speaker
Okay, so Southgate,
Gareth Southgate and England's Future
01:01:26
Speaker
Southgate staying as England coach, Italy play them next in the first Euro 2020 core qualifier. I mean, Southgate staying is a good thing, really, for Italy, isn't it? If not necessarily for this qualifier, because qualifiers, because I think Italy and England should both qualify for this, but looking ahead more to the Euros in, well, 18 months time, it's not very far. You know, I think
01:01:55
Speaker
Southgate, as brilliant a job as he's done for England and taking them from where he's gone, he's probably not the man to win them a trophy, is he? The thing is, I think, like I said, I think it was last week we discussed this and I said, I think Southgate is, I think he's done a tremendous job for England from where England were before he took over, how he integrated this team, he was a youth team England coach as well, did pretty well with them and how he's kind of
01:02:24
Speaker
bridge that gap and brought this New England side. It's his guys, it's his team that he's formed and built. I think he's done a fantastic job. My doubts have always been, is he good enough to lead England to a title? Obviously, he's good enough to bring them to a semi-final, he's good enough to bring them to a final of major tournaments, but is he good enough to take them all the way? I'm not so sure. But having said that,
01:02:53
Speaker
Lionel Scaloni just won the World Cup in Copa America in two years with Argentina. I think if you've got good enough players, the level of the manager is important very much, but it matters less. And I think England have got good enough players to win the Euros in 2024. I absolutely think they do. And I think it will be his last tournament. I don't think he stays beyond that. I think he will feel that it's time to move on.
01:03:23
Speaker
And I think, I know you're all going to probably like slate me who are listening to this, but I actually have England as favourites to win Euro 2024 today. I really do. I think it would be the most epic mic drop moment ever for Southgate to win and leave. And I think he would, I honestly think England will win Euro 2024. I honestly think that.
01:03:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, the evidence we've seen up until now, as I've said, is that nothing has really changed with Southgate in the sense that whenever England are played against a big nation, one of the major nations, they've fallen short. So I think I read out a stat that in the six years that Southgate's been in charge, the number of top 10 teams they've played, I think was 17, if I haven't got that wrong, and they've only won three.
01:04:15
Speaker
of them and only one of them is in the competitive game and that was after extra time and it's Denmark with a dive from Raheem Sterling in the Euro 2020 semi-finals. So you know when England play against elite nations, you know, and they haven't played many in these tournaments,
01:04:30
Speaker
they lose. They lost to France in a game which I think France were there for the taking and they lost. In the Euros, they didn't lose to Italy, they drew, but they still couldn't beat them and they lost on penalties. In the World Cup 2018, they didn't even play a top 10 nation.
01:04:50
Speaker
the major nation, let's say a superpower nation, they lost to Croatian semi-finals. So yeah, I think that until Southgate shows that he has the ability and England showed they have the ability to beat the major nations, then they are going to fall short because you can't expect
01:05:06
Speaker
to keep getting these easy runs that England have got in these last three tournaments. And even when you do, eventually, you're going to have to at some point along the line, you're going to have to play a big nation. And that's surely going to happen in Euro 2024. And when it does, from what we've seen, the evidence we've seen so far, England lose. They do, but they've got a very young squad. That's what I need to change. Yeah.
01:05:31
Speaker
But that's all very true and all very valid. But I do think that they have a very young squad. These players haven't even anywhere near hit their peak. I think the main issue is the midfield, is the central midfield. Declan Rice, with all due respect, I don't think is good enough to win anyone anything in that role.
01:05:54
Speaker
at least as the level he's playing at today. Maybe he goes to Chelsea and he has an incredible, you know, he takes that next step and becomes this like top-class, if not world-class midfielder. But as things stand today, I think you need, the tournaments are one and... Need someone with more quality. Yeah, tournaments are one and midfield. And I don't think that him in that role
01:06:15
Speaker
is maybe, you know, why not maybe play Jack Rheelish, you know, play him deeper because he's a technical player. But, you know, and play someone, something like that. Do you know what I mean? Like something like that. Or if someone comes along. But I do think Kelvin Phillips. Yeah. England, England, the one thing England are missing again is that they've never ever had in their history really is a midfield conductor, you know, a short passer, someone that can keep the game, that can indicate the game of his passing and, you know, short passing and
01:06:44
Speaker
you know, a regista, someone that can dominate and control the tempo of the game and get those line-breaking passes into the front players and even play, you know, some nice chipped-through passes or spread the play and, you know, someone like that, you know, Virati, Pirlo, you know, Javi, Iniesta, you know, Pedri, you know, these are the kind of players, they're the ones that win you tournaments and beat the big teams, you know, and Declan Rice is somebody that's just,
01:07:13
Speaker
He's too safe with his passing. He's just a destroyer. He's very, very good at stopping the opposition and filling in the gaps and tactically very, very good. Although I would say against France, Griezmann was in too much space a lot of the time. That should have been his job. But anyway. But what do you think of Bellingham, Declan Rice? Because I was talking to a friend, a journalist as well about what double pivot Declan Rice due to Bellingham. What do you think about that?
01:07:40
Speaker
Well, I think that Bellingham is a fantastic box-to-box player, so you need to give him a license to get forward because he scores goals, he makes late runs into the box, he's got a good shot, he's a good finisher, he's tall, he's good in the air, he should be that in the tournament as well. He's a box-to-box player, I think you play him in a midfield three.
01:07:57
Speaker
you get the best out of Bellingham because you have him as the one that's allowed to get forward but even in a midfield too you probably could play but not as someone that's a bit deeper lying but even with Bellingham you see with Bellingham I think he's got a huge talent I think he's already a great player but again he's not somebody that's going to dictate and control the game dominate the game he's more of a kind of you know all action box the box up and down player and again you know
01:08:22
Speaker
You need players that can complement that, that are able to conduct the play. And again, England generally don't produce those kind of players. And that's always been a reason why they often get outplayed and out-passed against the big teams. Didn't happen against France, because France were even more counter-attacking in this tournament. But generally, we saw in the Euro final where they just got passed off the park by Italy. This is something that England lacks.
01:08:51
Speaker
Anyway, I'm going to skip Ancelotti because we've gone way over, but I want to finish off with just us remembering. We'll talk about it on Thursday. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. It's not something that's going to be done there. I want to talk about it. Because I'm fascinated about Ancelotti going to Brazil, ever since I read this.
01:09:12
Speaker
Yeah, there'll be a time for us to talk about it. I want
Celebrating Sinisa Mihailovic's Legacy
01:09:15
Speaker
to talk about Sinisa Mihailovic because he sadly passed away at the age of 53 from leukemia, and this was last week. He's having his funeral today, Monday, actually, as we are speaking, as we're recording. Very, very sad news. He was diagnosed with leukemia, first of all.
01:09:35
Speaker
I think three years ago or four years ago and then he underwent treatment and chemotherapy and then
01:09:43
Speaker
Sadly, it returned and he underwent chemotherapy again earlier this year. Incredibly throughout all that time, he shows the strength of the man that he stayed as manager of Bologna during this time until eventually he left and he was let go in only in September actually, only a few months ago.
01:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's very, very sad. Very, very sad. Just another example of how horrible this disease, cancer, leukemia, how horrible it is. Because, you know, there isn't a stronger man than Sinisa Mielewicz and he was a real fighter. And it's just very, very sad. And I mean, I'm sad also because
01:10:34
Speaker
You know, he was, you know, he was part of my childhood. You know, I remember growing up like Red Star Belgrade. I were, you know, one of the first great club teams that I remembered. You know, in fact, probably the first year of European Cup, it was just the year before the European Cup became the Champions League. The first year of European Cup football, club football that I can remember as a kid, was that great Red Star Belgrade team, which Sini Simelevic
01:11:04
Speaker
was in that was in that team and it was a fantastic team, you know, with Darko Panchev and and Jugovic and Savicevic. Prozinecki played as well, Robert Prozinecki. Yeah. And then they had Belo Dodice, the Romanian.
01:11:21
Speaker
And then they had Stojkovic, although he left the year before and he moved to Marseille, who then Redstar played in the final of the European Cup and it went to penalties. And then Stojkovic came on in extra time because he was a penalty kick specialist and he refused to take the penalty against Redstar Belgrade in that penalty shootout because Redstar were his team, the team of his heart.
01:11:43
Speaker
and yeah Mihalyevich was in that amazing amazing red star team and then obviously the breakup and the war in Yugoslavia you know that great red star Belgrade team was broken up and they all moved on and because Serie A was the biggest league in the world
01:11:58
Speaker
a lot of those players then well most of those players then moved moved to move to seria and you know so each of which went went to milan yugovitch went sampdoria then uven says then into the latcio um you know pancha went into it was a massive flop um and then of course so each of
01:12:17
Speaker
Mihailovich went to originally, he went to Roma, didn't he originally? He moved to Roma at first. Then he went to, then he went to Sampdoria where he joined up with Sven Goran-Eriksen, who we had on our podcast and told us a few stories about Mihailovich, didn't he, last year. And, you know, Sampdoria, I mean, he was
01:12:41
Speaker
he was his free kicks. I mean, the thing that I remember the most about Mihalyić was his free kick taking. He was, for me, the greatest mid to long range free kick taker of all time for me. I have no doubts about that.
01:12:58
Speaker
His technique, his free kick technique was genuinely unbelievable. He scored a hat-trick of free kicks in the Serie A for Lazio, and he's the second person to do that in the Serie A. If I'm not mistaken, Beppe Signori did for Lazio as well a few years earlier, a hat-trick of free kicks.
01:13:22
Speaker
So he is in the free kicks above all. That left foot was insane. He was truly one of the greats of an era when Calcho literally ruled the world.
01:13:39
Speaker
You know, when he played for Rome, I played for Sampdoria, but Sampdoria Sven told us, you know, go and check that interview. He said he was trying to convince, you know, he convinced him he should be a central defender and Mihailo, which wasn't entirely convinced. And then he said, oh, I'll give it a go. And then he did. And and he turned out really well. So originally he was a left midfielder, left midfielder originally. Yeah. Yeah. And Sven, you know, convinced him to play in the middle of defense.
01:14:06
Speaker
And he revolutionized the role of the ball-playing defender in many ways, because I mean, there has been ball-playing defenders predating him by a long way. I mean, obviously, you know, someone like probably Franz Beckenbauer was the first example of the
01:14:21
Speaker
the Libro that the defender that brought the ball out from the fence and then joined into the midfield and then ubed into the attack and and joint made an extra man when the team was attacking and he had other Libros you know like uh Shirer and then Franco Berezi and Milan you know there had been ball playing defenders before but I think what where Mihailovic kind of helped revolutionizing was more in terms of his his
01:14:45
Speaker
passing from out of the back, you know, those long diagonal passes from left centre back to the right wing and just his use of the ball was, you know, he was like a defensive playmaker, you know, and now you see that today, you know, so many, you know, defenders since then that have, you know,
01:15:07
Speaker
is important in the game now that the defenders have to be able to use them past the ball. Whereas until then, you know, defenders were generally just about defending and you might get the the odd, amazing defender who could bring the ball out with from defense with maybe with a great dribble or, or, you know, you know, that sense, but not so much as a passer. And Mihailovic, really, and this is what Sven told us in the interview, he, he really did, you know, help
01:15:33
Speaker
evolved the game, the defender's game in that way. Now we see it all over the place now that that pass, we see it when we saw it with Materazzi, he used to do it for Italy a lot and Bastani does it a lot for the club and country now as well. Those especially left footed players that have that ability to do that long raking pass.
01:15:53
Speaker
So it wasn't just his free kicks. I mean, all his set pieces, his corners. I mean, he was best friends with Roberto Mancini. You know, they played together at Samp and then at Lazio. And then Mancini took him to Inter first as a player, then as an assistant coach. And, you know, Mancini's most famous Mancini goal of his career was that amazing back heel goal, remember, where he kind of had his back to the goal. And that was Mihailovic that did that corner. And I remember seeing an interview where Mancini said that
01:16:19
Speaker
he knew exactly where Mihailovic was put in because those two were such good friends that they had like a telepathic understanding, they read each other's minds, you know. And yes, I mean as a player,
01:16:31
Speaker
just as a legend, an incredible effort. As a coach, obviously, never reached the levels that he did as a player. I mean, that was almost gonna be impossible, but he still had a huge, huge influence as a coach. I mean, you look at the youngsters. I mean, he has been, really, in the last decade, one of the best coaches anywhere for launching, certainly for launching and developing young players. I mean, the best example, the biggest example,
01:17:01
Speaker
Don Aruma, 16 years old, you know, for Milan to give him his debut at 16. I mean, that kind of just shows you, but you know, there have been others as well, Correa, Joaquin Correa, Aaron Hickey, you know, especially in a world, Serie A, where, again, he helped change things in Serie A because Serie A has always been, and people take the piss out of it around the world, a league that
01:17:24
Speaker
you know, doesn't give chances to youngsters. And still, they're a little bit behind everybody else in this way. But Mikhailovich is somebody that he did give chances to youngsters. I think there was a Bologna player that also made his debut at 16 or 15, was it, earlier this year, if I'm not mistaken. I've forgotten his name now. You know, so he, he, he was brave and he, and he, you know, he wasn't just, you look at him and he thought of this tough man, you know, very almost stubborn, but he wasn't, he was actually quite forward thinking as a coach.
01:17:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a shame. It's an iconic person and character that unfortunately leaves us. And I can't help but think about Roberto Mancini, who, you know, he's best friends with Sini Semyanilovic. And I remember, you know, and also, of course, now with Gianluca Vialli leaving the national team.
01:18:13
Speaker
to deal with his issues with cancer. It's hopefully, which we hope he beats, of course, and recovers, but you can't help but think about Mancini and his two of his closest friends. Obviously, I mean, he's Sinisa Angelou Cavioli, which is very heartbreaking. And yeah, it's sad, it's life, but it's
01:18:36
Speaker
Yeah, we send obviously send all our love to Mihailovic's family and everything and friends and one of the funniest things seems to be Ali. There's one of these like there's like this, you know, hidden camera, candid camera kind of joke that they played on Mihailovic, which his daughter was in on.
01:18:55
Speaker
which is one of the funniest sketches on like hidden cameras I think I've ever seen on, ever, where his daughter fools him about her new boyfriend. I think it's Trisha Lantitsi, I can't remember, but it's absolutely brilliant.
01:19:13
Speaker
the way they treat, they stitch him up and trick him. And he's absolutely fuming when he, at that guy who's the girlfriend, who's his daughter's boyfriend, and the end when they reveal it, like the look on his faces. It was a really good sport about it. That's a memory I have of Mihailovich as well. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, we're going to finish off now on a bit of a lighter note, Bad Joe and Prem Face of the Week.
01:19:42
Speaker
Okay.
World Cup Standout Performers
01:19:44
Speaker
Badge? Mbop MSC, share it. I mean, can we really say anything else? No, I don't think so. I really can't think of anything else other than that, based on that incredible performance. Yeah, for sure. Prem Face of the Week. I've got one. We're drowning
Tony Adams' World Cup Team: An English Bias?
01:20:06
Speaker
in them.
01:20:08
Speaker
I'm going to read out Tony Adams' team of the tournament, World Cup team of the tournament. Levakovic in goal, and we've got Varan and Saiz at centre-backs, full-backs, Kyle Walker, Luke Shaw, in midfield we've got Benningham, Amrabbat, Griezmann, and up front we've got Mbappe, Messi, and Saka. So which nation has the most players in this team of the tournament? England.
01:20:36
Speaker
of course, England have four players. I don't even like... I get that you're biased when you do these things, because you love your country and you love the players that you see week in and week out, but try to be professional. I mean, it's just, you know, Luke Shaw, God bless, Kyle Wharton, I know.
01:21:03
Speaker
Like, it's just silly to say that. And especially when you've got these other, when everyone else, you know, everyone saw the World Cup. We were not blind. We watched all the games. And it's just, it becomes so, it becomes such a parody of itself, doesn't it? But yeah, no, that is quite the premise for sure. Do you have any?
01:21:26
Speaker
I
The Absurdity of Underestimating Messi
01:21:27
Speaker
think, I don't want to repeat myself, but yeah, I think for me, that video, it's an old prim face, but Gary Neville talking about Lionel Messi being past it is genuinely, before the World Cup, is genuinely outstanding. And also, I got a shout out to our patron, Kunal Soni,
01:21:52
Speaker
Jamie Carragher
The Nationality of England's Manager: A Debate
01:21:53
Speaker
wrote, or he didn't write it, there's no way Jamie Carragher wrote anything. He tweeted out, the England manager should always be English. And then there was a column published in his name, which I think is pretty much basically Jamie Carragher screaming into a voice note and on WhatsApp or any other social media message service to some poor bastard who has to, some poor sod who has to transform those linguistic, those outbursts of linguistic abortion into intelligible English.
01:22:20
Speaker
and published them, but basically that. And then when people questioned him on why the English manager should always be English, he replies with the most insane reply I've ever seen. He says, I voted Remain, by the way.
01:22:39
Speaker
What's that got to do with anything? Okay, good for you, here's a trophy. What's that got to do with anything? This is the thing, it's like this notion of, in England I've noticed, I don't live there, maybe I'm wrong, but I voted Remain has become the new, I have a black friend, I can't be racist.
01:23:02
Speaker
Like, it's weird. It's got nothing to do with that. And you're not being racist. Someone was just questioning why the manager of England should always be English if there are better qualified people for the job who might actually win England a trophy. That was the question. No one was accusing you of racism. If they were, they were being really stupid about it because that's not the point. And the response to that is I voted Remain, by the way. It's just
01:23:30
Speaker
I couldn't believe it. Why would you say something that stupid? What's that got to do with anything?
01:23:37
Speaker
It's like, I don't get it. It's over now for another... Oh, thank f for that. Well, actually, no, it's an over. It never ends. It never ends. It gets worse when there's an actual tour. It becomes more
Upcoming Episodes Teaser
01:23:54
Speaker
intense. It goes into overdrive. Overdrive, that's a really good way to describe it.
01:24:01
Speaker
Okay, let's leave it at that. We will be back on Tuesday for the Q&A episode, and then we will be back on Thursday with probably an interview episode actually on the transfer market. We're just working on finalizing that. So we're going to talk a little bit. We're going to speak to a transfer journalist and get some transfer news ahead of the January window opening. Okay, we'll see you again tomorrow, Tuesday. Until then, ciao ciao.