Episode 1: How To Enjoy... Generations!

Transcript

Alec: All right, are we live?

Ali A Mustansir: ah ah Well, not live, but...

Alec: So to speak. All right, well, welcome to how to enjoy. I prepared a little something. Ali, is that is that cool?

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, Alec, go ahead.

Alec: Okay. So should you be comforted by the warmth of your hatred? Let us not dampen your embers. However, should you seek the truth fire that seeks to understand instead of dismiss, if you want to look closer, bark your passions with confidence and have your opinions deep fried in context.

Alec: Stay tuned. thank you. So, uh, I'm Alec, this is Ali and, uh,

Ali A Mustansir: Hello.

Alec: We're here to talk games. Well, what's going on, man? What games are you playing right now? How how are you? Who are you? And why do people deserve your attention?

Ali A Mustansir: I mean, as far as what games I'm playing, there's the perennial Final Fantasy 14 that I'm always, always, always working on.

Alec: Oh, yes, the thinking is MMO.

Ali A Mustansir: But speaking of thinking, man's the the game that I've been really enjoying in addition this past week is It Takes Two. I've been playing it with my wife and it's great.

Alec: Yeah. Oh my, yeah, no, that's insane that you talk about that. as As close as we are in our you know gaming conversations, it's hilarious that we both separately started that with our partners at the exact same time, or or like within like a week of each other.

Alec: Because I've also been doing that with my partner. We've been playing It Takes Two. We're two years into our relationship. We are engaged and it's been a lot of fun. We just finished a way out and without spoiling anything, Boy, was that an experience? I'm going to talk about that a little bit later. But boy, was that an experience? i can i'm I'm not to and to anybody that is excited to play any of those like Haze Light games that are meant for like two players. Make sure it's someone you make sure it's someone you can really communicate with. And if not, it'll bring it out of you. How far are y 'all in that game?

Ali A Mustansir: We just got out of the tree without, uh, spoiling it for you. If you haven't gotten there or for anybody else who might not have, uh, started playing it yet.

Alec: Are you playing your gender typical norm roles? like Are you playing the guy?

Ali A Mustansir: Yes. But as you go through the game, uh, you realize that the gender, typical norm rules are, uh, not quite so well -defined in the game.

Alec: Yeah.

Alec: It's interesting. I mean, besides the wife being like an engineer who's always like, I thought it was interesting. One of the first situations you get into is like the vacuum cleaners broken in this house. And the wife is the engineer and the wife is the one who said that she's going to get to it, but she's always working, which I mean, if we're going to get into you know gender normative roles, that is definitely a masculine stereotype a little bit, would you say?

Ali A Mustansir: Yes. And then if you add the fact that the, the father appears to be the stay at home parent, uh, which also adds an additional wrinkle there.

Alec: very emotionally aware. Yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: So, no, uh, it's a great game.

Alec: Sorry.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, it's the kind of game that when I was a kid, I don't think could have happened. there were co -op games, but let's be honest, we're talking about the original Nintendo.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: and co -op games consisted of the Ninja Turtles arcade game and like Contra.

Alec: there there were not like those were those were co -op experiences in the way that like everybody's on the same side or you know we had Street Fighter sort of change everything when it was you know this arcade versus environment but there wasn't any hazelite type you know co -op games where they're like supplemental experiences like you and your partner are like dividing and conquering you know what i mean

Ali A Mustansir: or having to work together.

Alec: There's that Star Trek game on the Xbox 3. Exactly. Yeah. the And it's it's more than working together because like you're you're working together when you play like Halo or TMNT. But like if you think about what's unique about the game design of the Haze Light games, who is the company that makes you know Brothers, Tale of Two Sons, A Way Out, and It Takes Two, these are games where you cannot do it all on your own. do You have to rely on your partner to communicate.

Alec: even if you're not talking to them on the on the screen, even if you're playing with somebody over the internet, and you're not verbally speaking to them, there is still a level of communication because you're able to look at their screen. When I and you know, not to detract too much from our conversation now, but like, the only other the the earliest examples I can think of with that are like,

Alec: there's that Star Trek game on the 360, but that's, that's even pretty late. I think there's probably an earlier example. I mean, can you think of any off the top?

Ali A Mustansir: Well, I mean, nothing, nothing quite to that degree.

Alec: Yeah.

Alec: Right.

Ali A Mustansir: I'm trying to think if there was any in the, in the nineties or early two thousands that were not just like combat oriented or, you know, it's just, there weren't that kind of game.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: going on, at least not not early on, that that I can think of off the top of my head.

Alec: it's It's certainly a newer game design philosophy that like it's not just enough or or or more that it can be more. cause yeah What's the guy's name? it's it's but some Joseph josephsef Ferris, I think. Ferris is the last name. I'm i'm confident in that. But we're recording this 1212, technically the day of the game awards, but it's 3 .30 in the morning for us over here.

Alec: And famously, this man went on the game awards and basically quite literally said, fuck you, Oscars. Game Awards is awesome. Video games forever. And this is.

Alec: Sorry, i we we can believe that, but he he he verbatim said that. Anyway, I just think it's funny that he he actually ended up winning game of the year, like next year when he released it takes two.

Ali A Mustansir: to game it Did it takes to to get game of the year?

Alec: It did. It was 2021 game of the year. Yeah, it was.

Ali A Mustansir: I would say from what I've seen so far, it deserves it.

Alec: I mean, it didn't have the the strongest competition. I think famously, that was a year that like all the Metacritic scores were like, you know, not even hitting 90. But ah it takes two certainly has it's it's an experience not only unique to video games, but it's uh, it's it's compelling. It's well done. It's well acted well presented. But anyway,

Alec: what What sort of games did you play growing up, man? Like, I don't know if that's something we've ever really super duper talked about even personally.

Ali A Mustansir: You got to remember my games growing up are going to be very different from your games growing up I think For me, like the first, the first console that I had was, you know, I was, I want to say I was six actually.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, my dad bought the n NES for me. ah ah You know, we're talking about 1987.

Alec: Oh, really? What was the occasion?

Ali A Mustansir: And, uh, I think it was a birthday gift.

Alec: Just to have? Nice.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, I, I honestly remember more than he just, he brought it home one day and it was, you know, the, the big set with the, the pistol and the running mat that was the first attempt at a exercise games.

Ali A Mustansir: It was comically bad, yeah comically bad, but the, uh, you know, to me, it was all about super Mario brothers.

Alec: Yeah, it's Ring Fit Adventures Beta. Absolutely. Mm hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, my dad had this, this idea that if he bought me one game,

Ali A Mustansir: And then he wouldn't have to buy me another one until I finished it.

Alec: So there was like a a completionist mindset kind of put into you.

Ali A Mustansir: for For my dad, I don't think that he realized that the original Super Mario Brothers took me about a week to finish. It wasn't exactly a difficult game. But he started getting me You know, more and more games this time went on.

Ali A Mustansir: I discovered Mega Man, Legend of Zelda. Uh, my dad got me the first, and I'm going to say Dragon Warrior.

Alec: Mm.

Ali A Mustansir: And everybody that is a long -term gamer cringes because they should know that is Dragon Quest.

Alec: Absolutely.

Ali A Mustansir: and he,

Alec: But you're technically correct. The best kind of correct.

Ali A Mustansir: and he said, here's a game that's going to make you think. also played the, you know, the original final fantasy around that time. Uh, those were the kinds of games that I played. Uh, it was either a platformer like Mario or Mega Man, or, you know, long RPG that an eight year old has no business playing.

Alec: let me Let me ask you a question and what what game do you think ruined your life with how much you loved it? Like what is a game that almost became like a problem for you? Like, I don't know, maybe maybe you like quit the scouts because you just loved like Metroid or something, but like I can think of a couple personally in my time.

Ali A Mustansir: Well, if you want to talk about the one that, uh, made me really start to look at video games as more of an art form, uh, that was probably Resident Evil two.

Alec: Mm -hmm Really dang That's mm -hmm

Ali A Mustansir: However. Yes. But the first, the first game that I was truly obsessed with was super Mario brothers three to this day.

Ali A Mustansir: To this day, I can show you every secret in every single level of that game and play through it with no problem because I have done it so many times.

Alec: See, that is something I completely agree

Alec: I actually heard that was quite good.

Ali A Mustansir: Another one that's going to surprise you dramatically is the original NES The Little Mermaid.

Alec: There was a lot of strong Disney games in the early days, man.

Alec: And it's it's easy to understand.

Ali A Mustansir: So with that game.

Alec: but yeah Oh, go ahead.

Ali A Mustansir: With that game, the thing that that got me was.

Ali A Mustansir: It was next to impossible to finish the game. While the final boss without the the best power upgrade. But the only way to get to the get the best power upgrade really was to go through the entire game pretty much without getting hit.

Alec: Are you like, uh, or what kind of game player are we talking to? Is it a platformer?

Ali A Mustansir: I mean, it was kind of like the water levels in Mario.

Alec: so kind of floaty. Is it, is it, is it echo the dolphin ash like ish?

Ali A Mustansir: Well, I mean, I guess kind of, but Ariel's weapon was she would flip her tail and it would shoot bubbles at the enemies. And the best the best ah ah upgrade was it was a bunch of bubbles that were all red and that did the most damage. Again, if you got hit you would lose a level of the weapon.

Alec: Okay, so there's sort of like a risk reward, very high stakes situations at all times, kind of ah kind of a vibe. It sounds like it's got that NES commonality of just, you know, demanding perfection.

Ali A Mustansir: Right. Yeah.

Alec: Yeah, no, I'm looking at the the pixel art of the game. It actually looks phenomenal. It's super easy to understand why Disney, a company, you know, specializing in art, would out some of the heaviest hitters in, you know, the early in NES library. Early like video game art, really.

Alec: Like don't get me wrong, there's there's a beauty to Vectrex graphics.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah.

Alec: There's a beauty to like early space war and you know, know love all that stuff. But if we're talking, you know, things that graphically impress you, that you would and not expect to get out of your NES, I can definitely see the Little Mermaid being something to write home about.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, it was, it was a great game, but the game that really, really got me was, uh, Resident Evil two, maybe Mega Man X four, both of them, uh, I discovered the same summer.

Ali A Mustansir: and in those, in both of them, I was very much a the completionist, uh, but Resident Evil two in particular, I was going for that.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: You know, the, the. hardcore, uh, you know, achievements before they had achievements.

Alec: Just like minimal bullet hit like like what kind of like self imposed restrictions we're talking about.

Ali A Mustansir: uh, I beat resident evil two with a knife.

Alec: You son of a gun. No kidding, man.

Ali A Mustansir: you know,

Alec: I gotta say Resident Evil 2 is an incredible experience even to this day, man. I i beat that in something like 2013.

Alec: you know You know, well into ah ah a retro game by then standards, but it's still, it to this day it holds up. I played it like last year.

Ali A Mustansir: Almost 20 years after I played it for the first time you played it the first time that's that's yeah, thank you Thank you for making me feel old Alec

Alec: And, hey, this is the generations, man. this and This is why, you know, we, I mean, we're both somebody that, you know, has ah had their life changed by a Mario game and was born into a certain, you know, crystallized era of of that generation's perfection. Like you with the n NES, like I, cause the game that I think,

Alec: The first game I remember just like wanting to play when I was not able to play it, I just remember I'd be in class in kindergarten or elementary school, and I would just be like Jonesing to play Super Mario 64. I was always a completionist.

Alec: to the point where like my brother had the save of 116 stars and he just had absolutely no interest in getting the 100 coin stars in TikTok clock or you know rainbow cruise.

Alec: and it just it befuddled me I was like it's you're right there so that that was the game that's enacted in me this this completionist gene and it took me a while I don't think I like fully hundred percented it until I was in like maybe like fifth grade or something which is I don't know made me feel like a weenie hut junior to uh do it at that age but Yeah man, Super Mario 64, Star Fox 64, Punch -outs. grew up with an NES and an N64, the argument of which could be made that those are the two most toy -like systems maybe ever.

Alec: So to me, video games never even really felt, especially the way that and Nintendo did them, they never even really felt like they were even video games, man. They they just sort of...

Alec: had such a a brand confidence that it it felt like I was watching like a Star Wars in a movie. You know, it just felt like this is right. You know, they were so on the nose with like early 3D games that I honestly don't know what kind of gamer or person I would be if I.

Alec: if I had only grown up with, say, like a like a PlayStation, like um I probably would have gotten into JRPGs a lot quicker. You know, I would have beaten Paper Mario a lot quicker, but.

Ali A Mustansir: I think that would have been true if you had a Super Nintendo as well.

Alec: Dude, I would have been all over Final Fantasy three. I on I hope to think I would have been on Earthbound at the time, but your boy was a glint in the eye of the father at that point.

Ali A Mustansir: And now we talked about this.

Alec: I was.

Ali A Mustansir: We talked about this. It's Final Fantasy six.

Alec: Final Fantasy VI, aka Final Fantasy III for us North American normies.

Alec: But the oh my goodness, dude, Tim Rogers has a phenomenal breakdown of Final Fantasy three. I I don't know what I can say that that man has not already said, but I'm going to attempt to. It is something that treated it treated. a He even says this, but like he it treats you so maturely as the audience member. I'm somebody who played Final Fantasy six I think for the first time, like two years ago, think it's been two years now because it was before I met my partner.

Alec: is it a cool, if I tell the story of my relationship with final fantasy six or I actually, I want to hear yours first.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah.

Alec: I want to hear yours first.

Ali A Mustansir: I had fallen out of final fantasy when, uh, when six came out. Uh, so I, I played the first one and then I didn't touch another final fantasy game until final fantasy seven.

Alec: Mm -hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: that is probably because I didn't have a super Nintendo. Uh, I had the, I had a Genesis.

Ali A Mustansir: So, you know, I played fantasy star, uh, not.

Alec: good on you.

Ali A Mustansir: uh, not Final Fantasy, but, uh, as far as that's right.

Alec: It's the Sega Man's fantasy.

Ali A Mustansir: so after I played Final Fantasy seven, I was like, okay, so I want more of that. and I had recently gotten a hold of a super Nintendo.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, this, by the way, was also when I played a link to the past for the first time, which, uh, I still maintain is the best Zelda game ever made.

Alec: Ooh, that's not a wrong statement, but that is of, you know, there's a lot of opinions to be said.

Ali A Mustansir: there, there really is.

Alec: There really is, and they're all okay.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, I think everybody has their, I think, I think everybody's got their favorite, like this is the best Zelda game ever made.

Alec: it's not like It's not like hearing somebody say Sonic Adventure 2 is the best one, because like you hear that and you're like, okay, you were a kid at that time, sure. But no, like i mean any there's several answers to the best Zelda.

Alec: We've talked about how it has just about the best vertical slice of any of the games ever.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: That's true.

Alec: Absolutely.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, I would, I would also argue that almost nobody says that the original or legend of Zelda two is their, uh, is their favorite.

Alec: Legend of Zelda 2, man, there's there's there's some come around on that. i and I still have not beaten it personally, but it's actually the only one I haven't beaten, the Adam of Jorah's Mask. Anyway, that's top for another time.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, but yeah, so I had switched over to Genesis. I didn't, I didn't play any, uh, final fantasy games. I got a PlayStation, uh, on a whim one day.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, I already had an in 64 at that point, but I'd gotten ah the PlayStation.

Alec: Nice.

Ali A Mustansir: I was working my first job at McDonald's and I had, you know, disposable income. Uh, so I bought a PlayStation first one. I was so super excited. and my friend, let me borrow final fantasy seven.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, I, of course, immediately after about two hours went out and bought my own copy. yeah, I had, uh, I so, but once I finished final fantasy, I was just like, okay, uh, I need some, I need another game like that.

Alec: Oh, nice.

Ali A Mustansir: And the same friend that had let me borrow, uh, final fantasy seven said, uh, here you can borrow this. And he handed me. quote, unquote, Final Fantasy III.

Ali A Mustansir: And he said, this is better than VII. I'm like, OK,

Alec: ah said it's better. That's man. ah ah We got to get that guy's real gamer punch card because that is a.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, so I i mean, i i played I played Final Fantasy VI. And the storyline is engrossing. It keeps your attention consistently.

Ali A Mustansir: and something that it has something that none of the Final Fantasy games have managed to maintain since and that is none of the characters felt more important than another one as you're playing through the game.

Alec: It's an incredibly ensemble. but There really is not a main character. I mean, Tifa is the one that like gets attached to it because we need, you know, <unk>re we're we're humans.

Alec: We need a face to the name of the protagonist.

Ali A Mustansir: I think you mean Tara.

Alec: But I would say, did I say Tifa?

Ali A Mustansir: You did say Tifa.

Alec: t So I'm so sorry. it's The reason I say that is it's actually Tina in original Japanese, but we they didn't like that, so they changed it to Tara. But it is Tara, it's Tina.

Alec: buts ah No, so i I completely agree with that, man. that' some We have shockingly never really talked about our admiration for Final Fantasy III.

Alec: prior to today, I don't believe not not really, you know, you and I are hints here and there we've talked about our favorites.

Ali A Mustansir: A little hints there.

Alec: Final Fantasy six slash Final Fantasy three is not my favorites. but it's much like the answer to the best Zelda, it is somewhere in the argument of the sphere of influence of, it's it's they're all amazing, but there's not enough time for how I feel about the entirety of every Final Fantasy.

Alec: I will just say Final Fantasy VI.

Ali A Mustansir: There's

Alec: Oh, go ahead.

Ali A Mustansir: There's one other thing that I want to say about six that, uh, that really stuck out.

Alec: Please.

Ali A Mustansir: they like square, uh, square soft at the time, not square Enix, took a, took a big risk with, uh, with three and honestly, kind of on that, kind of on accident.

Ali A Mustansir: they got to the end of the game and realized that they had a lot more that they could put into the cartridge. So. That's where the whole world of ruin story came from.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: But that ended up being this great twist because you get three quarters of the game through the game and you lose.

Alec: Yeah, for for anybody that hasn't played it, it's the Thanos snap of like early video game history.

Ali A Mustansir: Like.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, I mean, you you.

Alec: The bad guy wins.

Ali A Mustansir: Completely destroys the world and.

Alec: Completely, and at the time, if I may, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Ali A Mustansir: I'll say it's just there's a whole quarter of the game is you are literally wandering the results of your failure.

Alec: I yeah.

Alec: Mm hmm. And it's not even about the the ending strongly gets this tone of finality of of coping. There's genuine themes of self -harm and you know existential you know dread and even like suicidal ideation. you know there's There's thoughts of ending it all because of the cataclysmic weight of the failures and

Alec: We I don't know if we really talked about this, but the bad guys a very famously based off of the Joker. And it is.

Ali A Mustansir: Izzy had no idea.

Alec: You had no idea about that Yoshitaka Amanos. It's Yoshitaka Amanos, the Joker. That's why he's sort of like this, this chaotic figure.

Ali A Mustansir: I'm sorry, that was supposed to be dripping sarcasm. Did that not come through?

Alec: OK, you son of a gun, boy, I oughta. And dude, it's so yeah, I guess that means Batman's the protagonist of Final Fantasy six.

Alec: Case closed. But yeah, dude, I can I just say, though?

Ali A Mustansir: and Is that the guy that suplex the train?

Alec: He's that was Batman, you know, sir, Batman. It was boxing Batman. Um, I will say, I think as far as final bosses and final fantasy go, I think six is far and away the best one.

Alec: the presentation, the final theme using all of your, well, 12 of your roster of.

Ali A Mustansir: Oh.

Alec: depending on your, you know, you can you can enter the final battle with I think as small as like a team of four, you only have like, to get four people to progress the story. And that's mostly because of, you know, the ships and whatnot that they offer. But

Ali A Mustansir: And to your point about Kefka being basically the Joker I want to point out that ah ah I don't think you've reached this point yet in Final Fantasy 14 But there is a point where you get to fight Kefka in Final Fantasy 14 and that laugh that laugh

Alec: Oh, that's conversation for another time, but yeah. Well, yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: it it They kept it, they kept it, just like that.

Alec: Dude, it's it's so iconic.

Ali A Mustansir: And it still gave me chills.

Alec: It's iconic.

Ali A Mustansir: It still gave me chills.

Alec: Well, well, well, well, well, no, we'll cut that out. But yeah, that's amazing. so goodness gracious, we're we're on this team. So Final Fantasy six sounds like, uh, what did Final Fantasy seven do for you? You, you finished that. Did that, was that the RPG bug that hit you? How, how did the first Final Fantasy treat you on the NES?

Alec: Because Dragon Warrior, if we're being honest, is it's it's nice.

Ali A Mustansir: in.

Alec: it's where It's where we get our building blocks. It's very bare bones, hard to recommend by today's standards. JRPG, it's it's a singular protagonist.

Alec: There's just really attacking, running, and item usage, and you know the skills that you get, of course. but There's fewer choices to be made and that's something that we do need to sort of at least pay attention to in this podcast because this is a how to enjoy podcast and and what's important in understanding why some things are good or have aged well or have aged not is the agency of you know choice in game design. You know Dragon Warrior 1 and 2 famously you know pretty okay by today's standards but

Alec: brela innovative at the time, but it's Dragon Quest III. That is when, you know, Dragon Quest became a cultural phenomenon in Japan because that is when we had, you know, the the confidence of, you know, getting a full party, having like a full story. You know, I think that's I think that's another thing we can also pay attention to is threes in video game design, because we talked about this earlier, early video game sequels are famously very, very big departures from what they understood about the or misunderstood about the first game success.

Alec: I mean, like Castlevania two super

Ali A Mustansir: Every, every SQL was just trying to reinvent the wheel for a long time.

Alec: It really was, man. And that's something even we see with like Crash Bandicoot 2 compared to Crash Bandicoot 1, which goodness gracious.

Ali A Mustansir: Jack and Daxter one versus Jack and Daxter two.

Alec: Oh yeah, the the baby boy's Grand Theft Auto, Jak 2.

Ali A Mustansir: And then, and then Jack three.

Alec: Jak 3, the Shadow the Hedgehog of the Jak universe.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, but like those titles just got progressively darker.

Alec: Yes.

Alec: Yeah, they did, man.

Ali A Mustansir: so, well.

Alec: It was edgelord time. Shadow had a hedgehog. Shadow. and shut out and Shadow of the Hedgehog had guns and was saying darn. He didn't say darn, by the way, guys.

Alec: He do you know how much fan art me and my friends drew of Shadow the Hedgehog in elementary school? Like everybody else, you know, that's that's kind of when, you know, Hot Topic had gone too far and when Shadow the Hedgehog came out. But to me and my like five fifth grade edgelord friends, man, we was talking about that stuff on the schoolyard about daily.

Ali A Mustansir: So do you think, uh, you know, we're talking about more and more recent games, but do you think that, uh, your early gaming gaming experience had a big influence on the kind of games that you're into now?

Ali A Mustansir: Because honestly, both of us are into very varied things, but we're also very particular about what we enjoy.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Alec: So, yeah, we we get into this philosophical kind of question of like, you know, why are we trustworthy? i I think there's so many people you can trust with your time when you want to you know sit down and hear them talk.

Alec: But I just want to say I'm somebody who's always tried to approach video games with a ah ah very sincere understanding that Uh, there's a conversation at play here. There's, there's the game design. It's, it's an intimate conversation between the game designer and the game player. You know, it's, uh, it's very careful descriptions. It's lighting. It's, it's tutorials. It's Mario jumping over the pit for the first time. Uh, there's, there's limitations and then there's freedoms that you gain. There's a, well, let me just say.

Alec: what was the What was your original question? I apologize, and we can cut this out.

Ali A Mustansir: Oh, I asked, you know, what your early gaming experiences, how do they influence what you play now?

Alec: So I, and this is gonna sound kind of kind of kind of funny, maybe cringe. I grew up with, so my my older brother was eight years older than me. He had very developed, very nuanced sensibilities, and I didn't get it, but I always grew up wanting to get it.

Alec: So I think because of that, I sort of would always play at games like above my station. And I would even understand or or something cool about it, even if I didn't understand quite what it was. And the truth is, is I wasn't faking it, you know, for for any sort of social appeal. I was very sincerely interested when my brother would play like, you know, killer seven on the GameCube and Eternal Darkness.

Alec: And, you know, we would play, you know, just, you know, weird games that we would run a blockbuster like, you know, Die Katana or, you know, he would actually spend, you know, hours playing Paper Mario, even though it was an e -rated game. So I started my video game experiences quite young. I was As young as, you know, make up a number if you want, but as early as I can remember, let's call it let's call it three years old. I was I was mashing buttons on an N64 controller. And I think it was probably when I was in maybe.

Alec: I think it was a combination of Super Mario 64, Star Fox 64, Ocarina of Time. we here's Here's the stupid thing about my household. Here's how you know I didn't run that household. Okay, we had two in 64s and no Sega consoles, no PlayStations. Explain that to me. I i was,

Alec: that really bothered me growing up. But I am somebody who's, is that, well, at least you guys have it all though.

Ali A Mustansir: We won't talk about my house.

Alec: I mean, you don't, you have a PC, you don't really need an Xbox, but you guys got a Switch and PlayStation, you're fine. Anyway, really answer the question, I would always play games above my station and knowing that there was sort of this intrinsic value that I was, I just, I didn't know yet. you know it It sort of always felt like,

Alec: Like there was a joke that people were laughing at and I didn't understand the context, but the more I played and the more I, i you know, it's it's like, life is like a JRPG, you know, you start out and you you think you understand it, but you really don't. And it's sort of difficult in the beginning, but at the end of it, you're you're somebody who has stories, you're somebody who has experiences, you're somebody who has,

Alec: you know learned and lived and uh... has memories that's i think my favorite thing about video games is is the memories that i have uh... i can tell you most of the places i was at in my life based on you know what just what game i was playing or you know uh... that time that you know like fire emblem path of radiance uh... got me a job you know uh...

Alec: there's There's several stories. you know I ran a poetry club when I was in school. It was very successful. I was the president and to my own horn and you know I had about 40 to 60 kids that I just helped weekly express themselves.

Alec: And many of my quotes yeah this came from silly translations of Japanese original video games in the form of, you know, JRPG dialogue.

Alec: And, you know, we can sit here and them all all your base are belong to us.

Ali A Mustansir: while your base are belong to us.

Alec: Now, there is this quote in a Path of Radiance, which has this ah this very big, you know, theme of of of subjugation and societal oppression. And it taught me just basically about racism, you know, at of like like a at the age of like, you know, it taught me in in a very intimate and nuanced way, the limitations that we can just, you know, place upon people for, you know, no other reason than preconceived notions. And, you know, I

Alec: it's That's one of the many early things that I think video games have taught me. i think Truthfully, I don't think they've ever stopped teaching me. I think I know more about you know technology.

Alec: I think I know more about history. I think I know more about even philosophy, know somebody who's very close to a philosophy degree. these the It has helped me learn about the world. And I don't think that video games get enough credit for that. I think too often they're there're they're dismissed. And the way that they're dismissed is the problem, I think, to me. you know people I see comments all the time of of people saying that something was too retro. or And this is about something like Undertale, which is not retro at all in any other way than it's aesthetic.

Alec: It is a modern day JRPG with plenty of choice and interactivity, action gameplay in the form of its heart movements. It's a bullet heck shooter at times.

Alec: It's an empathy simulator at others. But it's to say that its retro is dismissive of the whole understanding of its game design. But we'll talk about Undertale plenty throughout our time here.

Ali A Mustansir: a say That's one that you've been telling me over and over that I need to play because I have not played that.

Alec: So yeah, it's going to come up. But and that just tells you how much like the audio levels on that will tell you how much I love that game. But here's how much I love it. Our next episode or sometime in the future, we will be doing a year round round up of the games that we enjoyed in twenty twenty four. And well, you'll see where it places on my list.

Ali A Mustansir: Even though it didn't come out in 2024.

Alec: These, okay, so it'll be distinguished the games we played in 2024 and our games that came, you know, the ones that came out and the ones that we enjoyed. We will distinguish if I.

Ali A Mustansir: Hey, Final Fantasy 14 came out in what, 2013 and I still play it. So.

Alec: yep and uh don it and it's still you know we can it's a bit of a more nuanced conversation but expansions are new games let's be real you know they're at least the way final fantasy 14 does them they're expansions yes but

Ali A Mustansir: to to a certain degree, yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: That's fair.

Alec: content -wise, they're more than DLC. I mean, the term expansion came before DLC, but some of our viewers genuinely might not know that. Uh, which is another kind of thing that we're doing. It's like, I'm, I'm a young guy, uh, at this point in time. I still think, you know, both of us are relatively in our youth, but, uh, every day, you know, there are younger and younger people that are being taught game design on their phone because their mom gave it to them as a child. And now they just.

Alec: pay for everything, you know, I don't I think monetize. I think when you don't understand the literacy of of the media that you consume, you can very quickly become a tool of it and a victim of it.

Alec: I think that's what gambling and and the, you know.

Ali A Mustansir: I mean, you're right.

Alec: and Yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: And, you know, uh, I mentioned before, know, we're talking about DLCs or expansions.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: the, uh, the, the original expansion just kind of slipped under the radar and it was all because, you know, they didn't have enough room to fit the game on one cartridge.

Ali A Mustansir: So they decided, Hey, why don't we just make this two separate games that connect together?

Alec: Oh, you're talking about the original expansion?

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah.

Alec: The original DLC?

Ali A Mustansir: Sonic, Sonic, the hedgehog, Sonic, the hedgehog three and Sonic and knuckles.

Alec: Goodness, if I had my camera, I'd be showing my copy of it right now. Get my street cred, but...

Ali A Mustansir: But, but think about they took, they developed one game. It wasn't able to fit all on one cartridge. So they said, Hey, we're just going to market it as two games and charge people an extra.

Ali A Mustansir: What was it? 40 bucks at the time.

Alec: earth But you don't understand.

Ali A Mustansir: So we're getting two games for the price of one.

Alec: I can put Knuckles in Sonic 2 though.

Ali A Mustansir: Yes, and so I mean,

Alec: So how are they going to do that with I'm just kidding. I'm being facetious. But it's you want to talk about gimmicks. That is certainly, you know, we can we can get into the nuance of what makes a gimmick a gimmick. And we will absolutely discuss it when we discuss, you of the philosophical questions that arise with how we actually interact with something. But

Alec: we'll We'll save that for another time as well.

Alec: yeah

Ali A Mustansir: But I mean, so I look at, I look at my gaming these days, you know, um, and I say, okay, what about what, how did my earlier gaming contribute?

Ali A Mustansir: Right. Uh, I always wanted to know more about the story of legend of Zelda. it is, it, it most certainly is.

Alec: It's tantalizing. it's It's something that like drip feeds its story, you know.

Ali A Mustansir: You know, and when I talked about the stuff that I played as a child, like let's be realistic. the story in any Mario game feels more incidental than anything else.

Alec: Oh, yeah, it's it's set design.

Ali A Mustansir: so, I mean, Mario brothers three is literally confirmed to be a stage play.

Alec: It's yeah. Yeah.

Alec: Oh yeah, but in its it's what's beautiful about that though is it's sort of like wrapped into its aesthetic. Like you could look at that without any confirmation as I did when I was a kid playing that game.

Alec: Like you can just realize, oh, these these little platforms are being held up. It's like a stage thing. i I exit the stage right, the screen becomes black.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah.

Alec: Like it's it's very intriguing how how well they sold that, just that small idea.

Ali A Mustansir: The game starts with the curtain rising and ends with the curtain closing.

Alec: It's so cool, man. You know, then that's just that Shigeru Miyamoto next level of polish and wonder.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, so so but when you look at it like that and you say, OK,

Ali A Mustansir: Can I play a game that has no point other than fun? Absolutely. And I do have those games still that I play because of that early, but of that early, you know, influence, but what was it about resident evil to Mega Man X for final fantasy seven that really lit a fire in me. It is all of them had spectacular narratives.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, I know you're not the biggest Mega Man fan, but Mega Man X4 is the strongest story in the Mega Man X.

Alec: I am a huge Mega Man X fan, I will say. Big Mega Man X fan. I like Mega Man. I just think i think it's an early example of not evolving too much as a as a game design. I think I've made the argument before that they all just sort of feel like fan hacks of the same game. But I'm also being a little bit mean. I like Mega Man Legends a lot. I love Mega Man Legends. One of my earliest blockbuster rentals was like Mega Man 64.

Ali A Mustansir: I was an adult when I played that. the, the interesting thing about Mega Man, and this is, this is how I feel about the Mega Man franchises.

Alec: And it's solid, dude.

Ali A Mustansir: I loved the original games. There was a story, I think. Um, Um, and then they realized that people wanted a deeper story. So Mega Man X happened.

Ali A Mustansir: And then they said, Oh, the excess that it worked out really well. We're going to add more tweaks and create, you know, all the other Mega Man stuff that is, uh, that has come afterwards. And I feel like the further into the series you get, the more they just learned the wrong lessons.

Alec: Honestly, yeah. And I, I really like the diversity of Mega Man, like the, when you think of Mega Man, you can think of the original 10, sorry, the original, you know, six games, uh, as their own little thing.

Ali A Mustansir: eight.

Alec: Well, but then, uh, didn't seven and what, what consoles did those come out for? I thought those were, uh,

Ali A Mustansir: Mega Man one through six were on the n NES. Mega Man seven was on Super Nintendo. Mega Man eight was on PlayStation.

Alec: PlayStation. Thank you. Yeah. And Sega Saturn, right?

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, it might've been, yeah.

Alec: Yes. I believe so. Any who's. Yeah, no. Mega Man, I give a hard time, but that's only because I'm just not the biggest fan of its formula or its particular platforming.

Alec: Having said that, big fan of Mega Man X, big fan of the aesthetic. I've actually liked a lot of the animated like shows I've seen of Mega Man.

Alec: Speaking of, did you see, I have not seen it. Have you seen the Mega Man secret levels episode that blessed our our Amazon Prime streaming service about two days ago?

Ali A Mustansir: secret level.

Ali A Mustansir: Actually, I believe that one's going to be in the next batch because it wasn't part of the first date.

Alec: December 10th, 2024.

Alec: Oh, they're holding back. Okay, how about them? The the gall. So, okay, would you say that That was an upset. Like, did you obsessively beat Resident Evil two or Final Fantasy seven or.

Ali A Mustansir: When Final Fantasy 7, when I first played it, yeah. It was, I got home from school. If I didn't work that day, that's what I was doing.

Alec: Nice.

Ali A Mustansir: My girlfriend at the time got really annoyed.

Alec: Did I. How deep did you get? Did you do like the the weapons side content?

Ali A Mustansir: Oh Yeah, I wish I still had my original save file.

Alec: Nice.

Ali A Mustansir: I lost that memory card years ago, but

Alec: Still to this day, I've actually 100 %ed a couple of Final Fantasies. I have not done that with Seven. It would not be too difficult.

Ali A Mustansir: And the, you know, we were talking about Mega Man X4. I 100 %ed that. I learned every secret and discovered that there were elements of the story that changed depending on which character you played and what, you know, what you had as far as weapons or armor goes at that point in the story.

Alec: Oh, really?

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah. I mean, not big things, but little things.

Alec: Dang.

Ali A Mustansir: And it was always, to me, it was always about, you know, the story.

Alec: That's amazing. No, because that those little touches are really important. Undertale is very aware of many of those touches. And again, I think Undertale is just about one of the greatest pieces of of human making in history. They should teach entire classes about Undertale. Undertale is very responsive to your gameplay in the same way. And it's it's it's changed that singular game has changed how I think about the smallest of interactions, you know, when when ah you reload a cutscene and the dialogue is slightly different in like a Grand Theft Auto game or ah Red Dead Redemption, you know, so many subtle small differences because of that.

Ali A Mustansir: So, I mean, even when you're talking about Resident Evil 2, the narrative carries some pretty, uh, some pretty big themes that, uh, a varied depending on how you played. So.

Ali A Mustansir: One of the important things to keep in mind was like, you know, whoever you played through first, if you picked something up, it wouldn't be there for the next person when you played through the second time.

Alec: Yeah, dude, the the way that they were able to handle the A and B stories between the two, like that was honestly pretty revolutionary on top of all of the other very subtle things that they did to make Resident Evil, i mean the brand that it is today. because RE1 is good, but it's it's like a cheeky B -movie with self -aware cheesy FMVs. you know We all know the Jill sandwich memes, but the gameplay is there, but the presentation in RE2 is

Alec: just second to none. they that That is really, it's honestly, it's like Star Wars. it's It's a sequel so good, it's maybe responsible for the entirety of the franchise.

Alec: you know that's That's how I feel about episode five.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah. and you know, the, the philosophical points that it brings up are also spectacular. This goes for, uh, this goes for mega man X four.

Ali A Mustansir: And also, uh, final fantasy is there's some, the, there's some like real serious stuff that go, that is discussed.

Alec: You got me needing to play these mega man X games.

Ali A Mustansir: I mean, if you want to talk about resident evil, there's, you know, capitalism and

Alec: Oh, corporate greed. Absolutely scientific recklessness just for like, yeah, I mean, Oh yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: yeah. And then, uh, you get into Mega Man X4. And if you, uh, if you've, if you've played it, like the reason that you're having to fight against these other robots is because it is a particular subsection of the, uh, of the robots that have been declared enemies of state.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, because of actions of a few, the entire group got lumped together. And instead of just, you know, being disassembled and decommissioned, they decided to fight back.

Ali A Mustansir: It went against the grain.

Alec: Damn.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, it's, it's really good.

Alec: It's a shockingly, here's the thing. Mega Man X is when it gets my attention. I've never engaged with those games to the point that I i would declare to know anything about their story. But so my experience with them is I worked at a game store for, I mean, I worked at some manner of someplace to do with retail and video games for like nine years. But realistically, and it's close to like seven years. But ah Mega Man X was was a frequently asked about game. It was a frequently tested game. And I would always really like I really liked the game feel of Mega Man X. I liked the wall grabs. I liked the combat. I liked the fact that you were not choosing, you know, well, if I remember right, the choice is actually still there to like

Alec: is Does Mega Man X have you choose your bosses right off the bat or do you just play like straight through like a narrative like action shooter?

Ali A Mustansir: there's a There's an intro level and then you choose your bosses.

Alec: That's what I was about to say. There is some i because I remembered it as both in my head for some reason. ah We're keeping all this in. But Yeah, no, I really did enjoy what I would feel from the game feel of the Mega Man X games.

Alec: Legends was my first experience with Mega Man, but if I may, let me ask you something, because I'm a big Mr.

Ali A Mustansir: Cool.

Alec: supporter. I'm a big fan of FPGA technology used to basically mimic the system hardware so that you get the perfect emulation of your games.

Alec: How do you enjoy these games? Because I know, I don't know if you have your old, like, I don't know, what is your setup like? Like, this is not even for the audience.

Alec: I don't know how you do this. Like, do you emulate it on your PC when you want to play these games? Or do you still have your Super Nintendo copies?

Ali A Mustansir: Oh,

Alec: And I know you don't have a CRT, do you?

Ali A Mustansir: no, I definitely, definitely purchase them whenever they have a re -release available.

Alec: called it.

Ali A Mustansir: So for example, if I were to play, yeah, the Mega Man X Collection has probably gotten the most, the most love over the years.

Alec: See those and those collections.

Ali A Mustansir: Though I think that might change in the next, next few months. that's how I, that's how I play them. I haven't really done much of the emulation, uh, mostly because when I first, you know, played around with emulators in the nineties, uh, they didn't work very well.

Ali A Mustansir: And, uh, Oh, I'm sure I just, uh, that initial experience and I was just like, Hmm, I don't really want to do that.

Alec: Ooh boy, they've come a long way, let me tell ya.

Ali A Mustansir: So i I tend to stick towards the, you know, official roots.

Alec: Official routes. Well, and the problem is, is not that that's an, that's a fine, you know, respectable stance.

Alec: The problem is the companies don't usually make that available. Like, I don't know, like Mega Man legends, I don't think has, has received any sort of, uh, of the same Mega Man collection love.

Ali A Mustansir: You're right. And that is disappointing because I would buy a collection of Mega Man Legends, Mega Man Legends 2, and the Misadventures of Tron Bone.

Alec: They're afraid of us. Absolutely. They are. They're afraid of us buying that because they know we want they won't. We won't. We want three. We want to get off the moon.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah.

Alec: But yeah, man, like I first off go, Mr. It's a it's a great project. But ah what what if they never do that?

Alec: I mean, would you what what is your so your order of operations as far as you know how you would go about getting these games. like Let's say they they put out a statement that said we lost Mega Man as an IP, we can never do another collection. Would you, hypothetically, because we're not going to endorse any sort of piracy on this podcast, how would you theoretically go about in involving yourself with these games again?

Alec: Cause this is, this is a bigger conversation about the future that I would like to get into, but.

Ali A Mustansir: I would.

Ali A Mustansir: Well. ah ah I mean, I've dealt with that, right? I dealt with that for the past, what, 20 years. um I'm talking about lunar and and it's.

Alec: Oh yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: It's it sucked. I mean, lunar is by and large my favorite game ever. um And I remember, yeah, I remember, you know, going up to EB where I had preordered, lunar to like every day waiting for my preorder to come in.

Alec: It's your rosebud.

Ali A Mustansir: And because it wasn't a priority game, it wasn't a triple A title. it I mean, they didn't prioritize getting into the store and I ended up getting it like a week late.

Alec: Yeah, you got it when you got it back then.

Ali A Mustansir: And it was, you know,

Alec: Games didn't have release dates like they do now. let's Let's make that very clear. They came out like in October, you know what I mean? Like they came out in December. They didn't have like December 18th or Sonic Tuesday was was a very big revolution.

Ali A Mustansir: I mean, they they, they, they, they did, they had official street dates. Uh, and that was a don't sell before this day, but that didn't necessarily mean that they were going to be at the store at that time.

Alec: Man.

Alec: So, I mean, like, go ahead.

Ali A Mustansir: but lunar, I mean, that was 20 years ago, right?

Alec: Yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: That was 20, 20 something years ago, almost 25 years ago. And I.

Ali A Mustansir: have not been able to play those games, particularly Lunar 2, which I actually think is better than Lunar 1.

Alec: What, what happened to your copy? Did you have to call an moderate or.

Ali A Mustansir: I had to sell it at one point.

Alec: Uh, did not, so yeah, I feel yeah.

Alec: As as somebody who is so in a similar boat, I feel yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: So, uh, you know, all these years it's been, I would really like to play those games again, but a, I no longer have a PS one. And B, I mean, the copies are selling for hundreds of dollars because they're that great of a game.

Alec: Yes, they are.

Ali A Mustansir: So. oh

Alec: And let's be real, the working designs box art is a collector's piece, even for, you know, Nimrods that have never played the game.

Ali A Mustansir: everything, everything that came with it as well, like everything in those boxes were amazing.

Alec: Oh, yes.

Ali A Mustansir: But, you know, working design shut down.

Alec: Scrumptious.

Ali A Mustansir: And yeah, there's been two remaking the first one. One of them was on, I believe, PS, PSP.

Alec: The up and the DS.

Ali A Mustansir: And it was, it was bad. Well, the DS was a was a completely new game that was also a special kind of terrible.

Alec: A very special kind of terrible.

Ali A Mustansir: and then, yeah.

Alec: For those that don't know, you would move around and lose HP. So I'm going to stop with that.

Ali A Mustansir: and then they, they remade it on, uh, or they re -released it, I should say on, uh, mobile devices, something like 2009, but none of that captured the feel.

Ali A Mustansir: of playing the game, you know, with console in hand. I don't want it mobile. I want it on my screen. I want to be able to, you know, see and hear properly you surround sound. And finally, finally, all these years later, we're getting that ah ah collection coming out, you know, sometime in quarter to this year or quarter to twenty twenty five.

Ali A Mustansir: But I waited 25 years. I waited 25 years for, or close to 25 years to be able to play these games again.

Alec: man that is well

Ali A Mustansir: So that's the answer to the question is, you know, what, what would I do? I would hope that I get to play them again someday.

Alec: Yeah. that's, it's interesting because where I'm at is, I said, I, I've Saudi who worked in a retro video game store for the better part of like my entire working life. If I'm being honest, uh, it put me through school. It put me through the times when I did not want to go to school. Uh,

Alec: and it put me through, um um you know it was a good time in my life. I had met a lot of you know silly people, met a lot of great people. It's actually how Ali and I met. It's just an incidental way to come amongst like -minded friends and you know wouldn't change some of those experiences for the world. But I was in a privileged position of not only, you know playing games for an undisclosed amount of time and getting paid for um um it. was It was a good way to to tangentially just learn a lot about the eras, the communities, the the you know it was ah ah was a way for me to learn about things that you wouldn't even know that you wouldn't know.

Alec: Having said that, I am somebody who adopted a much older sensibility like yourself when it came to, you know, got to have it original. And I would take it a step further. I would always collect complete in box brand new. I would vote with my wallet. I would support the companies that uh, you know, put out the products that I like, I try to buy new when I can, and when I, you know, can't, I don't. however,

Alec: we're getting to this point in video games where even limited run and all of their attempts to remain physical, it it feels like we're never going to be without these games. Or if we are, it seems like there's always going to be the solution of piracy, which of course we're not endorsing, but it needs to be said that like,

Alec: Video games have the unique situation of changing on the hardware that they're played on. You know, you could play Blade Runner on Laserdisc and no one's going to stop you. It's functionally going to you know look a little bit different, but it's still the same movie.

Ali A Mustansir: Mm. That's debatable.

Alec: Well, give or take resolution, but I mean, the load -ins, pop -ups, screen tears, I mean, these are just three possible problems you might come across if you just play a game that's like ported poorly or it's just, I'm just saying.

Ali A Mustansir: Oh, I was making fun of the 300 different recuts of blade runner.

Alec: That's, and that's fair. There are, there's some dangerous days over there.

Alec: that's extra funny because Dangerous Days is the original code name for Blade Runner. Anyway, let's see if these androids dream of electric sheep, why don't we? But I just wanna say this, and i'll and I'll make the rest quick, but as somebody who's recently gotten a PC that's you know more powerful than a console for the first time in my life, i i'm i'm I'm switching up my mentality and my mindset. like I have the suffering and the suffering ties that bind and, you know, all these games that are exclusive to or that I can put in in an Xbox Series X and it'll come out in like glorious 4K textures and all that stuff. But I could also just download the game on my PC now.

Alec: And when I have a game that like I can't play, for instance, let's talk about like that Berserk Japan exclusive game. I'm a humongous Berserk fan. um i you know I had to do what I had to do to play that game and luckily there's some fan translations, but you know I'm sort of somebody who I won't be stopped. you know The harder it is for me to play a game, the more I wanna play it.

Ali A Mustansir: Oh.

Alec: like I'm that psychopath that downloaded you know all the Flash games before Flash went out because you know why not sacrifice a terabyte to get every single Flash game so that I can play Bush's hot dog? I don't know if you know that game. It's a game where you play as George Bush after he gets kicked out of the White House and he just makes hot dogs. It's really funny. It's really stupid. But I think this is just sort of, I think i think I'm an um an example of

Alec: maybe what happens when you just can't justify the space anymore. Because I mean, on top of the space, you know most of our our viewers, statistically speaking, are going to be in very similar economic circumstances as as ourselves.

Alec: you know we're We're average folks.

Ali A Mustansir: True. Very true.

Alec: We're we're ordinary freaking citizens. The original quote is not freaking, by the way. ordinary freaking people. Anyway, I just wanted to sort of touch upon this because we are talking about the generations.

Alec: and I mean, how can we talk about our past and our present and not talk about our future, you know?

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, uh, absolutely.

Alec: And this is something I know we'll talk about more as the days go by, but I just wanted to kind of

Ali A Mustansir: And.

Ali A Mustansir: I think that digital is where gaming is going, period. I mean, PC made that switch years ago. Microsoft attempted to do that with the Xbox One, and there was immediate blowback, because if you remember, that's what they wanted to do right from the start.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Alec: Oh, yes.

Alec: Dude, Sony got their 299 moment just like in 1995, but they got to dunk on Xbox instead of Sega. You know, it was they.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, but, but now, you know, PlayStation pro is digital only.

Alec: Yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: You can buy digital only PS fives because they they realized, they realized that more and more gamers are switching to digital only.

Alec: Don't get me started.

Ali A Mustansir: And I personally, I pushed back on that a lot until. I don't know, maybe a couple, maybe three, four years ago. And I started noticing that the sales and discounts that I would see on the PlayStation store were significantly deeper than the sales I would see in the stores.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: And that's when I started, you know, you know, like you said, voting with my wallet, right? You know, I, I w I would buy the digital game because it was half the cost of buying the disc.

Ali A Mustansir: And so now I have, you know, 700 PlayStation games that are digital only. And, you know, a lot of those came free with PlayStation Plus, but they're still part of my library.

Alec: Oh, yes.

Ali A Mustansir: and oh yeah, but the, by and large, if I buy a game now, I'm looking at the PlayStation store.

Alec: Good enough service.

Ali A Mustansir: I don't really go to the video game stores. that much anymore unless I'm looking for, you know, a controller or some accessory that I'm, you know, needing to pick up or if my kids want to go look at the collectibles.

Alec: Right. No, yeah, man, it's it's silly. Like I've always worked with, you know, retail and and almost exclusively video game retail. And, you know, yeah, feeling you get when you just like walk into a mom and pop shop and you like don't walk out with something like I felt like that like every day at at my store.

Ali A Mustansir: Woo hoo.

Alec: And know, that's why I have like Madden 08 on every console. But the meme is up. You know what I mean? I also don't need that anymore. You know, there's a game I have in my collection called Downwell. It's an amazing game. It's incredible. It's minimalistic and it's perfect on an OLED.

Alec: But it is two ninety nine as a game. It's an app store game, but it's to justify the cost of physicality. It's twenty five. It's it's it was like thirty five dollars after shipping. And I think I got the special edition. So I think it's like forty dollars. And it's like, don't get me wrong, it's it's a cool game. I'd like to commemorate it, especially because the company that does it special reserve games puts out just like the highest quality you can ask for.

Alec: with their special editions, but, uh, it's, it's, I mean, the thing is, if they got me out of the game, like it's, it's it's Jover, you know what I mean?

Ali A Mustansir: well

Alec: It is.

Ali A Mustansir: Well, and I also look at it like, you know, we talked, I talked about a few minutes ago, Xbox being ahead of the game when it come came to the, uh, the switch to digital.

Ali A Mustansir: Um, and if you look at the, uh, the Stadia and the Amazon Luna.

Alec: Oh, yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: Neither of them were performed very well, but if you really think about it, cloud gaming is where everything's going.

Alec: oh yeah

Alec: Yes, it is. And as internet gets better, absolutely.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, the stadia, the stadia failed, but that's because it was ahead of its time.

Alec: So did the Sega channel, and that was ahead of the time too.

Ali A Mustansir: It came out what, five years, five years too early.

Alec: e They also did, I also think they they failed in a lot of other ways.

Ali A Mustansir: So.

Alec: They they didn't get any, but like one exclusive, and well, they had they had more than that, but and all of them were garbage, only one was good.

Ali A Mustansir: Even exclusives, even exclusives hardly matter anymore.

Alec: You know, you're kind of right. You're definitely right.

Ali A Mustansir: there's you I mean, there's some pretty big exclusives, don't get me wrong. and But most of them at this point are some kind of timed release. ah ah Sony's releasing their first party games on PC.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, it's you know it's timed exclusive. It's exclusive for you know a year or whatever afterwards, but PC gamers are still getting that.

Alec: Mm hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: Microsoft is releasing their games on other consoles. The only people that are holding their properties in a death grip is Nintendo.

Alec: And they are they have always positioned themselves in a in a very lucrative position. They are able to I mean, they can fail for so long and still like just be totally fine. They are one of the strongest brands in like. I honestly think history, I remember there was this one time in my college class and they were like,

Alec: you know what's ah What's a brand you synonymize with like excellence? and Everybody's like, Apple and Google. I was like, Nintendo. i mean like They have answered the questions that like we didn't even realize was going to be asked. you know How do you keep something exclusive? Well, do you make And when you're talking about this, not gimmicky hardware, I don't think the Switch is a gimmick. I don't think the Wii U is a gimmick. I think it was a it was a function that also probably ahead of its time. Because think about what the PlayStation portal is, which also, as of recording this about a week ago, maybe two at this point,

Alec: got an update to where it is now independent of your PlayStation 5. And you could, as long as you're not using the same account, do two independent tasks with one PS5 and one PlayStation portal. That's the future. You know, if Xbox would get a consolized sort of adaptable experience like Nintendo and PlayStation and even Valve with the Steam Deck have done,

Alec: I mean, they might compete, but, I mean, all of their exclusive, all of their exclusives are available on other platforms. Every halo is playable on PC.

Ali A Mustansir: Mm hmm.

Alec: I believe, uh, gears of war. I believe the same situation. I don't think that there's any like true console exclusives anymore.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, I don't.

Ali A Mustansir: I don't think I don't think Microsoft is going to be a competitor in hardware or not Microsoft, I should say Xbox is going to be a competitor in hardware in the near future.

Ali A Mustansir: I think I think they've recognized that

Alec: We'll see.

Ali A Mustansir: they can make more and be more successful selling cloud service games and putting their

Alec: Licensing out, maybe they're, they're they well here's the thing, they they they gained a lot of IP in the past couple of years. They acquired Double Fine, you know Ninja Theory, know several studios, they they just bought it.

Alec: i I want to say they're probably going to try and position themselves in and such a way where they can license out their they're games to other consoles and maybe get like a bigger share.

Alec: But even then, I don't i don't see that that's going to do much.

Ali A Mustansir: Well, I mean, but consider this like, you know, how much does the company make on the console?

Alec: I mean, nobody plays Minecraft on the Xbox necessarily anymore.

Ali A Mustansir: So you talk about what a new console comes out there or, or they lose money on each console.

Alec: Almost always nothing. Exactly.

Ali A Mustansir: I mean, that's, that's common as well. So where do they make the money? They make it off the accessories and they make it off the software.

Alec: Mm -hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: So if they buy up all these companies that are producing games and say, okay, you're just going to produce as an exclusive with us, it's either going to be, you know, we license you out or we, uh, we keep you exclusive to our cloud services.

Ali A Mustansir: Oh, but by the way, our cloud services are now available to use on Samsung TVs and everything.

Alec: Hmm. Yeah. Have you seen their new ad campaign that like everything is an Xbox? Like this is an Xbox. That's an Xbox.

Ali A Mustansir: I mean, if everything's in Xbox, then there's no...

Alec: The hell is an Xbox? What do I buy an Xbox? Yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: Exactly.

Alec: why would I buy a specific Xbox? So in here's the thing we haven't really talked about is, and and I made this argument to you privately with Returnal, but let's look at Returnal as a necessity in the terms of exclusivity. You talked about like Sony you know migrating their IP to PC. As of this moment, they don't have that much on PC. They have on, in terms of goggames .com,

Alec: which is you know my primary place to shop. They only really have Days Gone, a Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted 4, and uncharted four and the spin -off Uncharted. And I think that's it, actually. it's It's definitely the best way to play Days Gone.

Alec: but some

Ali A Mustansir: they only really started doing it, uh, like maybe a year, year and a half ago. So their, their PC releases, it's a slow trickle. They're testing it.

Alec: They are, and and i um um I'm all for that, but what the there is some games that they have not adapted because they do actually kind of rely on, first off, let me just say that they have a much bigger presence on Steam than they do on anything else.

Alec: But that's just because they hate DRM and you know i understandably, but also you know I like DRM.

Ali A Mustansir: Yes.

Alec: So before I just want to make one one point about what the future of console ization has to be, because we talked about how like in the beginning games like felt like toys, at least I experienced them as such. put in the cartridge, you know, and you plug in the funny little socket into the controller slot. And before you know it, you are, you know, gaming like a pro.

Alec: That was a a very fun experience. The Switch is the same sort of way. And I wouldn't describe it as a gimmick. I'd describe it as like a necessary necessary change that needs to happen because consoles have only ever really been a dumbed down computer with specific operating systems and I know I'm butchering the simplicity of that but you know functionally that's essentially what all consoles are they're dumbed down computers

Ali A Mustansir: Mm hmm.

Alec: And we're going to see what happens to the economics, you know, they might change, they might not. But at this point in time, it has never been a closer run between getting your like $800 for a PlayStation Pro or, you know, do you want to, you know, free your the beast and get, you know, all manner of potential games, including PlayStation exclusives.

Alec: You just might wait a little bit. But there are still reasons to play things on console. We'll see what the Nintendo Switch 2 is going to offer. But like the Nintendo Switch has a lot of gyroscopic functions when you play like Legend of Zelda.

Ali A Mustansir: who

Alec: I mean, the way you can orient maps and some of the Super Mario Party's games is pretty neat. There are a lot of ways you can interact with like all of the 3DS games have not all of them, but there's some very unique

Ali A Mustansir: All the first party ones do.

Alec: ways to I mean, yeah, like, except for, like, some of the Pokemon, there they're cheap, that them Pokemons. But, like, Kid Icarus 3D, like, there's just no way you can play that game without, you know, some form of a 3DS, honestly. like not without it being a compromised experience. So I've spoken of Returnal. Returnal is a game with inputs using the PlayStation, all of the PlayStation's features in their entirety. So you will, this PlayStation 5 has haptic feedback triggers, so when you push them down halfway, it's one way to shoot, and when you push them down in another, it's another way to shoot. This happens to both the L2 and the R2 triggers,

Alec: functionally making you play the game with a a certain level of more control, more awareness, and it's baked into the game's DNA because it's also a bullet hell shooter. It's also a triple A roguelite, and we've never really seen and one of those before. it's It really is an industry first. Returnal doesn't get enough love. Let me just say that right now. It's also co -op, so hit me up on that, Ali.

Alec: But anyway, one of my friends just beat it and they sent me a text thanking me. That is not a lie. That happened. But let me just say that future of consoles is going to have to take a note from Returnal. It's going to have to do something unique with the hardware, even if it is, quote unquote, a gimmick. It's got to happen. But we we I don't know what's going to happen in the future. I mean,

Alec: it's, if it becomes more and more about invading like the VR space or, you know, whether we decide as a species, we want to start running in our games with our legs and we start seeing like internet cafes sort of open up with these hyper particular experiences.

Alec: We'll see, but at the rate things are going, everything's just sort of becoming homogenized and yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah. I mean, you've seen, you've seen ready player one, right?

Alec: Oh yes I have and i I like it. I think I like it. I like it.

Ali A Mustansir: Ready player one, that video game world.

Alec: I love that movie actually.

Ali A Mustansir: That is, I think where, but I'm talking about, but I'm talking about.

Alec: like

Alec: That's what Fortnite's trying to be dude. That's straight up what Fortnite's trying to be. It's trying to be every game under the sun and the only place you spend time.

Ali A Mustansir: you know, the full VR, fully immersive, you know, haptic feedback, suit, everything.

Alec: Yes, yes, I see what you're saying.

Ali A Mustansir: That's where I think gaming is going now.

Alec: Dressing up like Buckaroo Banzai, hell yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: I think the ultimate end game when it comes to video games is the holodeck like on Star Trek.

Alec: man, like I can see that a hundred years from now or something, you know, and I say that cheekily, uh, you know, expands exponentially usually, but, uh, I mean, yeah, I like, if you really do remove yourself from the equation and you're like, okay, well, time's a long, long fricking thing. And, uh, you know, I will die one day and I will not see all of the technology that will ever be. I mean, it's either that or everybody just,

Alec: You know it we could see just just just potentially we could see a regression you know what if what if what if it's like ah ah dryers and ovens and cars where we just peaked in the nineties and the best the things that we have now are just like.

Alec: made to drop after a certain point. you know like What if everybody just decides that, like hey, nobody wants to pay for 70 bucks for the new Final Fantasy or the new God of War or anything that's going to broach the the topic of good game design and and good non -manipulative, non -V -bucks paying, bring out your wallet type game design.

Alec: you know and It depends on what the people want. Tencent is a company with more market share of the video game space than any other company, and they make garbage. Manipulative, you know oppressive garbage because people can't read this game design.

Ali A Mustansir: Well, and there's something to be said for that, but I don't think that, uh, I don't think gaming peaked in the, in the nineties.

Alec: i I don't think gaming did, but yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: uh, what I will say is VR is becoming more and more of a thing. And I think there's a reason for that. and not just for video games, because, uh, last last year.

Ali A Mustansir: There was a horror TV series called the <unk> the faceless lady that aired on on meta quest exclusively.

Ali A Mustansir: And if you had a quest, it was free.

Alec: Hmm.

Ali A Mustansir: But it was a TV. It was a TV series filmed in VR.

Ali A Mustansir: And it puts you inside the story. No, you weren't interacting with anything. But I really see VR as where TV and and video games are going to go.

Alec: hmm I do see I do see your point I do see the potential but let me also raise you a situation uh you know I'm not gonna get ahead of myself but I think maybe the best game I played all year that came out in 2024 is probably astrobot like that game encapsulated fun i beat it so quickly when they released the expansions they did so weekly uh every thursday and i would say goodbye to my partner who left for work at like 7 45 and i instead of going back to sleep would just stay up and i would be like

Alec: All right. Eight o 'clock is going to come around where I live. I live in central time and it's going to come around. I'm going to get the update. I'm going to do the level, be at one of the first ones. And I did that for five weeks in a row.

Alec: That's how much I love Dastrobot.

Ali A Mustansir: But we're right.

Alec: the reason I ah only reason I say that is that is a series that went from VR to regular PlayStation. That's it.

Ali A Mustansir: And that's because the little Astrobot himself has kind of become the PlayStation mascot. But the VR game was exceptional.

Alec: Seems like he is, yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: All of the Astrobot games have been extended tech demos.

Alec: Yes, that's definitely true.

Ali A Mustansir: and so, and I don't get me wrong.

Alec: Astrobot PS5 is probably the first fully realized adventure, yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: I love the, uh, I love the VR game. I love the one that came with the PS five, but at the end of the day, they're just releasing it in a way to showcase whatever it is that they've, they've decided to showcase about the piece of technology that they're using.

Ali A Mustansir: And that's fine.

Alec: I agree, man.

Ali A Mustansir: That's the, there's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with that. The important thing here is recognizing that Astrobot did start in VR.

Alec: And it did. and And truthfully, I think it comes down to the design. like you know There's a lot of VR necessary experiences, or at least things done within the VR space that um are unique. I think Astrobot is maybe one of the more interesting examples of, like completely unnecessary in VR. you know it's ah ah You're essentially just a moving camera. And it is really amazing when you like look under stuff or look behind stuff. I just think that, you know, Astro Bot on the PS5 kind of proved that you don't really need that.

Alec: But you you do need it in games like Superhot, you know, when you're dodging things and it's based on your like actual bodily movements or, you know, Beat Saber.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah.

Alec: I don't have a lot of VR experience because I, at this time of recording, have a PSVR 1 for the original PlayStation 4 hookable up through my PS5 through a Sony adapter that I had to order by messaging them.

Alec: So,

Alec: The VR that I have is currently pretty limited. I am currently running a 4080 Super, so I can definitely do some PC VR, and I will. We will probably go through that at some point on the show.

Ali A Mustansir: Quest 3.

Alec: Quest 3. I'm going to do some research. I'm going to do some research. I want to get the best one with as much maneuverability. Uh, I want, I've heard the best one is the valve index, but I, I'm going to see how compatible it is with everything else.

Ali A Mustansir: I'm very happy with my Quest 3.

Alec: It's, if it's cheap, I'm down for it. I was, I wouldn't have minded the quest too, but it just, it it went up in price right as I had the interest for it.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah. And then it dropped to like 150 bucks.

Alec: godd dan i need that

Ali A Mustansir: So the, at at the end of the day, we don't know what the future of gaming is. Uh, we know where we stand now and the things that we enjoy. And those are the things that we're going to be spending the next, however long this runs talking about.

Ali A Mustansir: And.

Alec: Yeah, i think I think our mission statement, is as as corny as it sounds, it's education. that. i we i ah ah yeah where Where we currently live and when we currently live, education's just not necessarily at the forefront. We're no teachers, we're no professors, but we're somebody who who care about this medium and enough to you know stand up and say, hey, maybe maybe it's it's something that we can poke and prod at, and maybe we can do it together and figure out why we like what we like.

Alec: why we need to be wary of certain you know malicious game design choices that mobile apps engage in, and even more and more console games are engaging in. this is not to say that you shouldn't spend money on games. I spend money on games. So much money on games. But... This is just to say that you need to be aware of the choices you make. That's something games give us the ability to do is they give us the ability to simulate choices before they have the consequences of reality. sometimes this is Sims. Sometimes this is, you know, playing Shadows of the Damned, you know, but we have a choice and how we use our choices matters. And, uh, that's all I got.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah, I mean, to me, gaming is always going to be an art form first and foremost, whether it be something narrative, whether it be to incite feelings, there's ah some games I've played that had no, no combat, no action, they, you know, lovingly called walking Sims, but there was something artistic about the entire thing.

Ali A Mustansir: There's so much more to video games than just

Alec: Oh yes.

Ali A Mustansir: the way that it's portrayed in media. they ask did Video games ask deeper questions, they talk about more complex concepts and present them in a way that you find the answer yourself. And I love all of that and I can't wait to talk more about that.

Alec: Absolutely, man. This has been a long time in the making. We're we're two individuals that loved enough of hearing their own voices that they just demanded that other people do it do do hear us as well.

Alec: But it I'm just gonna say this has been a very productive hour and a half. I'm somebody who in the past two decades has ah've been screaming these thoughts in my head and I'm happy to finally have an outlet for them. If you're listening, we appreciate your time and engage with us in any way. We're learning a lot about this and appreciate your patience.

Alec: I'm going to be streaming at the lawn lawn ranch on Twitch, and we're going to probably go from there.

Ali A Mustansir: Yeah.

Alec: um um Ali is going to be streaming probably under our brand.

Ali A Mustansir: the dad pods, I'll be streaming under the dad pods.

Alec: Oh, okay. Under that dad pods.

Ali A Mustansir: Uh, we will have a Twitch set up that will restream both of ours.

Alec: Okay.

Ali A Mustansir: So if you are able to see, if you're, if you're able to see just one, it's right there.

Alec: Absolutely. Keep it a network.

Ali A Mustansir: So, uh, those links will all be available, uh, as we continue to put them together.

Alec: heck yeah.

Ali A Mustansir: So thank you for listening.

Alec: Thank you. thank All right, game on.

Ali A Mustansir: Please give us any feedback and we'll talk to you next week.