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Rafa Leao vs Paolo Di Canio Controversy: Was AC Milan Star Right Or Wrong? (Extended Clip From Q & A Pod)
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Rafael Leao Vs Paolo Di Canio controversy has been dominating headlines in Italy after the Italian pundit heavily criticized on Sky Sport Italia the AC Milan duo Rafa Leao and Theo Hernandez behavior in a cooling break during 2-2 draw against Lazio in the Serie A at the Stadio Olimpico in Rome.
The Italian Football Podcast patron Ahmed sends in a question wondering what Nima Tavallaey and Carlo Garganese think of the situation whilst criticizing Carlo's tweet on the issue which the duo discuss, debate, analyze and contextualize.
This is an extended clip from this weeks Q & A episode of The Italian Football Podcast available only to patrons on Patreon.com/TIFP
To send in your questions as well as listen to this & all other full episodes of The Italian Football Podcast (with no ads), go to Patreon.com/TIFP OR Spotify to become a Patron for only $2.99 USD per month (excluding VAT).
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Transcript
Introduction to the Italian Football Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast. Next question um comes in from ah Ahmed.
Dicagno's Comments and Liao's Reaction
00:00:09
Speaker
He says, in the aftermath of the Dicagno gate, as I know would say, and that is what I would say, um here's a question regarding Carlos Tic on Twitter or X regarding Dicagno's known fascist comments on Rafael Liao and Theo Hernandez and then Rafa's subsequent response to Dicagno, a known fascist, by posting a photo of the known fascist making the Roman salute from his playing days.
00:00:31
Speaker
Carlo posted, Rafael Liao has proven with his response towards Dicagno and Cassano why he's not a champion. A winner does not care about the criticism of others, whoever they are, and don't let doesn't let it reflect them. but That's what losers or insecure people do. liar lions not liars Lions don't lose sleep over opinions of sheep. My question is, why the hell would you even get remotely close to looking like you're defending a guy who's a known fascist attacking the character of another player who by all accounts isn't a piece of shit. What's the thought process here? ah Forgot to mention, you also denied that he was a champion. What are you talking about? If you try to spew out something about champion in the Italian sense of the word, that's nonsense. Then you're definitely the silly ass of the week. I think we really should talk about this because it's been, it to me, it's been bizarre because I don't, look,
00:01:27
Speaker
For me it's this, Paolo di Cano's political opinion is is irrelevant to what he actually said.
Criticism of Liao and Hernandez's Conduct
00:01:37
Speaker
What he said was criticising not just Leao, but Teo Hernandez. If you look at the clip, he says what Teo Hernandez and Rafael Leao did was a disgrace.
00:01:51
Speaker
and Then he went on a very angry ransing. It was disrespectful to Milan. It was disrespectful to the the club. It was disrespectful to the fans. It was disrespectful to the coach. He's talking about both of them. Theo Hernandez reacted by the quote going on Milan TV saying, it's not a big deal. We we were we were just on, what's it called? we were just on the We just come on. It was a cooling break. We didn't need a cooling break.
00:02:19
Speaker
um And that was the end of it, was Rafael Liao had a meltdown on social media, which is not the first time. Now, before we get into Rafael Liao's reaction, I don't think Decanio, this was not
Relevance of Dicagno's Political Views
00:02:32
Speaker
about racism. This was not a political discussion. This was the behavior of two players, professional senior players who had been benched, one for technical reasons and one because he wasn't fit enough. And the reaction where they came on was to demonstrate they knew what they were doing. They demonstrated their unhappiness.
00:02:53
Speaker
with, ah for whatever reason, they demonstratedd they made a mark of not going over when everyone else did so. I'm just talking from my perspective, I don't think Dikanya's fascism is relevant at all. I don't think his political opinion, whether it's socialist, conservative, liberal, communist, it's irrelevant to this discussion. and Because what he said on Skysport Italia was, again, what Theo and Liao did was a disgrace.
00:03:23
Speaker
So, and he is a pundit on Sky Sport Italia, and he's a very good pundit. This is what we get to ah the issue of separating people's jobs from their personality. I mean, one of the greatest violinists of all time was a ginormous prick. Okay, Paganini. He was, villages in Italy used to say that he was Satan incarnate.
00:03:53
Speaker
But when it comes to violins structurally, the music, it's beautiful. It's probably technically the most difficult pieces
Handling Criticism in Sports
00:04:02
Speaker
of music to ever play. But he was a prick. He was horrible. I'm telling you, the people who lived there said that he was probably Satan. That's how much of a prick he was. And I think we should be able to separate the person from the profession. If he had said anything politically about this, there's no discussion.
00:04:23
Speaker
But he didn't. he What he said was expressing an opinion on two players, not one, two, of how they behaved in a way that was disrespectful to the the club, the coach, their teammates, the fans. And that's what's relevant here. No, absolutely. And I don't even care who made the who made the the made the point, DiCagno or whoever else. ah is it's completely irrelevant to me who the person was that made that point. I don't care. I said the same last year when when Liao reacted like a child to what Antonio Cassano said earlier this year, actually, but a few days before the Roma game. And Rafael Liao went onto social media, calling him a clown, um and and then a few days later put in a dreadful performance against Roma.
00:05:21
Speaker
in the Europa League, in both Europa League games actually, and they and Milan went out. and And, you know, I've said it every single time. I've been, you know, Ahmed, if you've been listening to this pod for for a long time, you'll know that this isn't the first time I've criticized Raphael Liao for his attitude and and the way that he deals with criticism.
00:05:42
Speaker
I don't think he he deals with criticism well and I think it affects him. and and and it And this has happened time after time after time again. I believe in life and in football that those who succeed generally are those who don't react to criticism ah in a negative way, don't get emotional, don't just generally don't care when people question them and criticise them.
00:06:09
Speaker
In general, talking generally, of course, there will be exceptions. There will be those that that are very successful in life and don't react well to to to criticism. But in general, my belief is that those who who succeed in life and including in football those that if they get criticism,
00:06:32
Speaker
from anyone whether it's a fan and we've seen Liao reacting to fans as well shushing them did it this season did it last season um but generally those footballers that aren't affected by by criticism, that just don't give a shit if ah if a fan criticizes them or if the media write things about them. They don't care. Don't even read the newspapers. see does it how you know Has no effect on them. That's just how I believe. that's that's why Let me finish. let me finish that is what That is what I believe in general. And that that is the point I'm making about Liao. Liao doesn't handle criticism well. doesn't does it He doesn't handle criticism well. That's all. I just want to but i just want to separate
00:07:12
Speaker
Yeah, I just want to separate two things. I don't i don't i don't think that I disagree with you that but people who succeed in life are generally those who don't react to it, because from Djokovic to Zlatan to Maradona to who whoever you want, they went to town when people attacked them. I mean, Mourinho is famous for that, and they're very successful at what they do. My issue is it's how you react to criticism. It's how you do it.
00:07:42
Speaker
Liao reacts very viscerally. i mean To be offended and to be upset is a normal human reaction when somebody attacks you. That's just normal.
00:07:52
Speaker
it's what you do is you know to to to be if anyone i think people and I don't believe a word that no one cares. it's um At some level, everyone when they're attacked, criticized, have their character questioned, they will be offended, they will take offense, they will be upset. I just think that's normal, that's human life. But it's how you handle that, which is, in my opinion, the key here. And that's that's exact that's the point I'm making, them of course. um I have no problem in clap you know in clapping back at people that criticise you. But deep down, if it affects you, that criticism
00:08:29
Speaker
then then then ah then it's a problem. And I believe that with with ah Rafael Liao, it does affect him. That's why he reacts in this way. so people like to To people like De Canio and people like Cassano, who he doesn't have any respect for anyway. um So who so so you know that that's that's the issue here. That's always been my issue with Liao. I think he doesn't handle criticism well. doesn't get It gets to him.
00:08:57
Speaker
i think I think that, you know, I understand why he would want to respond and I think he should respond. And it's not just Lea. We've seen it, like I said, from Djokovic. It was just in the, it was in Wimbledon the other week when he just went to town on the crowd. Yes,
Athletes' Reactions to Criticism
00:09:10
Speaker
but it doesn't. Yes. but The difference with Djokovic is that it doesn't affect his performance.
00:09:14
Speaker
it doesn't know if anything you makes him better and the same thing Ronaldo Ronaldo Ronaldo said loads of times he he said I love it when they in fact Djokovic just said that Djokovic has said the same anybody that knows Djokovic actually has said that when the crowd are are booing him That's when I wish them and have a go. They say that is the worst thing you can do if you want if you want Djokovic to lose is to wish the same thing was not done as well. When he used to like love it, he said he gets fired up when people cry. Yeah, right now they're the same right now that when people used to try out messy, messy, messy. He used to love it. He would play better. He would love to, you know, he would love to prove people wrong with Liao. It's not like that at all. Liao mentally is he's he's he's he's made in a different way. And I think this is a this is a demonstration. That's the key.
00:09:59
Speaker
And I think that's the key. it's It's he's made in a different way. And I think we're all different. And I think we we do acknowledge all of us that people are just built differently. We're all different humans and we all react to things differently. um Some people don't care. Some people, most people, I'd say it does affect them.
00:10:22
Speaker
and And also it depends on who the criticism is coming from. Personally, if if the criticism is coming from, if it's valid criticism, i take and it's presented in a respectful way, I personally, I take it on board. But if it's coming from someone who's a complete arse clown and just tax attacks for no reason and doesn't know what he's talking about, I either just don't respond, or if I do, I go thermonuclear on them.
00:10:50
Speaker
But I mean, everyone is different. Everyone is completely wired differently. yeah i mean personally For me personally, the only time it will ever partly affect me, even remotely affect me, is if if it comes from someone who I'm close to, that I respect.
00:11:07
Speaker
or if it comes from someone, at very most, if it comes from someone who is close friends with someone I respect, like a mutual friend, let's say, ah then I might be, it might It might annoy me a little bit more from a case of it's disrespectful rather than because I actually care and respect what you're saying about me. Well, do you see, then i you know what i mean I know exactly what you mean. But what I do in those situations is I sit with the person down and say, what exactly did you mean? Because I want to learn from it. Because, you see, I believe the older I get, but I'm i'm four more and more convinced that you can learn something from anyone.
00:11:46
Speaker
And I literally mean that, anyone, even your enemies, even people you despise. I think you can learn something from any situation and all situations, even if it sometimes means it's lessons you don't want to learn. I think there is something to learn. I think at some level, there is always something to learn.
00:12:07
Speaker
But my issue is with this is, and when I read your tweet, um I didn't take it at all the way Arme did. I didn't even reflect on that aspect because i ah you know me personally. I think it's ridiculous. For me, the very notion of guilt by association when it's unrelated is stupid.
Separating Personal Beliefs from Professional Critique
00:12:27
Speaker
It's like saying that, well, Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore all vegetarians are Nazis. No, it's it's the most ridiculous. There's no correlation between Hitler's disgusting Nazism and his vegetarianism. There's no correlation whatsoever. and The same thing applies in this case.
00:12:44
Speaker
If it had been a discussion about racism, if it had been anything that was adjacent or even remotely contact with with his political views, that's a completely different story. And again, like I said, I separate the person, the personality, the personal aspect of that person from their art. Again, Stanley Kubrick, one of the greatest ah movie directors of all time, was an unbearable prick to work with. Does it mean his movies are shit? Of course not.
00:13:14
Speaker
Of course not. Ingmar Bariman, one of the greatest film directors of all time, was an actual self-proclaimed neo-Nazi for nine years. Does that make his movies any less of defining in cinema? Of course not. No, but what you want i'm saying no no what you're saying is right. I'm just saying that for me, I, Dicagno, I didn't even look or care who said it, whether it was Dicagno, whether it was, whether it was Capello who said the same, exactly the same thing, by the way. Um, whether it was anybody else, I could care less. my my own All I care about was is Rafa Liao and you've also got to put it in why I'm crit also critical of Liao the way that he reacted because you have to put it in context with the situation that has preceded this and that that Milan and Liao are in right now. you know Liao is has been heavily criticized for for what he did the the week before, shushen shushing the crowd for what he did during that game
00:14:12
Speaker
with we've with ah with him and Teo Hernandez not coming over. and that was ah lets not cool Let's just call it what it was. That was pre-planned meditated to to to to try and humiliate Fonseca. That wasn't just an accident. Sorry, don't do that just by chance. You don't. That was pre-planned meditated, they just they deserve the criticism criticism for it. There's already after the that game, because of that, there's a whole big scandal because of that, and Milan are in a crisis. They've got two points from three games, Ponceca's under heavy, heavy pressure, everybody is hammering Milan, and Liao then just adds
00:14:52
Speaker
reacts in such a way having already reacted at how he has in the last few games for last several days already and it's just like well you're you're completely out of control and this is just no way that a leader and a supposed you know, world-class player should should behave. That's not not how you you don't behave. And this is again adds to all the criticism that has come Liao, come the way of Liao recently and for quite a while now is that he doesn't behave in a way that a champion or a leader or somebody that should be set in an example to to the rest of his teammates. That's not how you behave. And and by doing this,
00:15:34
Speaker
you's just you just You're just adding to it. You've got to put it into context as well. This isn't just a one-off. this isn't Exactly. It's not the first time. It's the same with what we've seen with Victor Oseman as well. I mean, we've seen him like how he reacts and that ended up pretty much him not getting the move to top Premier League side
Liao's Character and Response to Criticism
00:15:52
Speaker
because tactically, ability-wise, there's no discussion. And the same thing I'd say was is about Rafael Liao. I think his his talent is is is's ah he's a diamond.
00:16:00
Speaker
like his talent. It it is Ballon d'Or level when, if he can express it, I absolutely think the world of him. I think he's unique when he drops his shoulder and goes on, you know, goes past players. He's unstoppable. um So, you know, it's not about that he reacted. It's human to react. It's about how you react. That's what's one aspect of it.
00:16:22
Speaker
And second, this second aspect, and it doesn't make him weak that he reacted viscerally. It just makes, it shows that he's immature and it's okay to be immature. There's lots of people who are immature and all the way up to their 80s and 90s, but calling a spade a spade is not demeaning or degrading them. That's the first part. And the second part is, I'm sorry, but DiCagno's political beliefs in this aspect is utterly irrelevant, completely irrelevant.
00:16:51
Speaker
whether or not he said it or did or whatever. Again, I think De Canio is a good pundit as a football pundit goes. doesn't he and he is a but He is brilliant. He's got a brilliant footballing brain. i've been he's i've been so i've interviewed hall But it doesn't um i've so but i just yeah i'm sure you you me just finish it doesn't mean just because I think he's good at his job, it doesn't mean that I think I agree with everything he says.
00:17:17
Speaker
It doesn't mean that I'm endorsing his entire existence on earth. No, absolutely not. If you know anything about me, you'd know I'm literally the polar opposite of him politically. I'm Orlucarelli. I'm to the left of bloody Cristiano Orlucarelli if you want to talk clearly. okay So he's my political enemy.
00:17:37
Speaker
But it doesn't mean that I can't separate what he is what he does as a football pundit from his person on the other side of it. I loathe his political beliefs. I despise them.
00:17:49
Speaker
But I'm also mature enough to understand the difference between what he's doing as an analyst and listening to what he says with an open mind and taking that on board, agreeing with him when I when when i when i think he's saying something right and disagreeing when I when i don't, and and learning to understand and differentiate and explain the difference. That's the key, at least for me.
00:18:09
Speaker
No, no, I agree. and and those And those that have you know the the the ah that been upset by by those that have criticized Liao for the way that he's he's dealt with this, you know they a lot of them feel like I've seen it. A lot of them feel that just because De Kanye is a fascist,
00:18:27
Speaker
that means that all criticism of Liao for what he did during this game and before is all all all of a sudden it it doesn't, it's not true, just because Dicagno is a fascist. This is just ridiculous. No, that is ridiculous. It's just absolutely ridiculous. I've seen it and I've actually seen it for so many people that are refusing to criticise Liao because Dicagno is the one that said it. And it's just like,
00:18:52
Speaker
What? Well, Capello said it, too. Yeah. um And, you know, other people have said it, too. And and I think you should be using my my thing is I don't think anyone's beyond or above reproach.
00:19:05
Speaker
like I think you can criticise anything and everyone, it doesn't matter who it is. also if also de kenyo has been a fact We've known Dakanyu as a fascist for 30 years. I mean, this is nothing new. Do you know what I mean? It's not like we discovered it. It's not like it's just all of a sudden, oh my God, have you heard Dakanyu as a fascist? We must must we must now criticise him now. We must condemn him now because because we didn't know 30 years ago. I think condemn him when he was 30 years ago, when he had the ducks tattooed on his, on is you know, 30 years ago.
00:19:31
Speaker
is it you know It's just that all of a sudden now we must condemn him, just because he he's had a go at Liao. He reminds me the same thing happened in England with Deccanio, which was the hypocrisy was just ridiculous. was He was a manager of Swindon Town. ah you He was managing the lower divisions of England. And no one said anything. In fact, he was actually treated really quite well by the by the English media. When he was at Swindon, he was doing really well with Swindon. He was taking you know getting good results, getting promoted.
00:20:00
Speaker
People were, you know, he was treated well and he was doing interviews all the time and he was seen as this great character, which is the same way that he was dealt with, by the way, in England when he was a player, even though, like I said, it's been known since the early 90s that he's a fascist. It was known while he was throughout his playing career in in England that he was a fascist. No one ever picked up on it. It was fine. When he started his managerial career in England and he was doing really well with Swindon in the lower divisions, out of the spotlight of the Premier League and the Premier League marketing machine,
00:20:28
Speaker
It was all fine. No problem. He was a laugh. He was a great character. He was had interviews, blah, blah, blah. Absolutely fine. Then all of a sudden he gets a job with Sunderland, then he's in the Premier League. Then like overnight, bang, the whole fascism thing. It all comes out. It's a disgrace. How can we have him in English football? How can we have this man? The media all went after him.
00:20:48
Speaker
ah you know, they will cause people started to boycott, people started trying to cancel him and all this and the other. And, you know, again, I'm not saying that he should have a platform. I'm not I'm not even entertaining that. What I'm saying is it was fine before. Then all of a sudden, just because he's in the Premier League, all of a sudden overnight, it was like, ah you know, and it's like, well, you had no problem with it. you know You had no problem with it until now. But because he's suddenly in the spotlight, all of a sudden it's a problem. You know, it's just it's this isn't anything new.
00:21:17
Speaker
I've been following, you know, I've been a football fan for for well over 30 years. I've known since I've started watching football that Kanye was a fascist. You know, it's it's well known. And look, again, it's even look, it's irrelevant to the case. and I don't want to keep repeating it. I think it's it's irrelevant to what happened because he wasn't just criticizing Liao. He was criticizing Teo and Liao for the behavior, which a lot of people did. And Liao's reaction was visceral.
00:21:47
Speaker
And it is right to be visceral. But the point is, it's I don't think he should have handled it like that. And that's all that I'm criticizing him for, is I think Teo handled it better. I think that's how you handle these situations, the way Teo Hernández handled it.
00:22:05
Speaker
now obviously recording this on the 4th of September, who knows what Theo will do on social media. you'll probably But up until recording so far, I think Theo Hernandez handled it much better, much more professional, much more the way you should handle it, and channel that energy into performances on the pitch, which I think both of them will do. But everyone's different, and and criticism, that's another thing as well. a Criticizing people for their actions doesn't mean that you're
00:22:36
Speaker
questioning the humanity like that's not at all what we're doing we're criticizing the action and and how someone handles adversity and that they should probably handle it in a better way doesn't mean that they don't have the right to or that they're worse human beings it's just we're comparing them to how you handle it criticism when you're a elite superstar. And the way to handle it is, in my opinion, what makes a campione a campione is if you handle it in the right way, win first, talk second. but That's just my way of, that's just the way I see it. um But I mean, everyone's different. And it doesn't mean doesn't mean that liao is is a weak or anything like that.
00:23:28
Speaker
at all.
00:23:32
Speaker
What'd you say? Yeah, let's move on now. I think we've done this to death. Yeah, we have. No, because I think it's important to to talk about these things because they are relevant issues and they are and we want to we want we maintain a complete honest honest relationship with our patrons, even when we disagree. And I think it's important that people feel that they can approach us and lift these issues even when we disagree. So I hope you're happy with that response, Ahmed.