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Episode 2 - Get off my lawn! Unless you're a dodo bird
26 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, Gregg and Ross embrace their inner grumpy old men as they reminisce about the vanishing world of the yellow pages, cursive, and handwritten notes. From missing physical buttons to voicemail-induced anxiety, they explore what’s gone the way of the dodo—and why maybe that’s not such a bad thing. Algorithms beware, nostalgia’s having a moment.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Episode Theme
00:00:32
Ross
What's up, party person? We're back with another episode of Unmotivated and Unprepared. I'm Ross.
00:00:39
Gregg
And I'm Greg.
00:00:41
Ross
And Greg, we are were hitting it strong. We got another another episode just less than a month since we released the previous one. So we' got a good we got a good trend going. Today, I want to talk about, and it's something we've kind of noodled with in the past, and it's a total Greg and Ross topic of what are some things that have either gone the way of the Dodo Bird, and no offense to any of the Dodo Bird watchers out there, rest in peace,
00:01:06
Ross
Or what are things that are soon going to be going the way of the Dota bird? Maybe we miss them. Maybe we aren't going to miss them.
Transition from Physical to Digital Controls
00:01:14
Ross
So that's what that's what I want to chat about.
00:01:18
Ross
And the first thing I was thinking of was physical buttons.
00:01:24
Gregg
Well, I'm glad we didn't start with this extinct animals we were going to miss. I'm glad we didn't go through that. I don't have a whole background in like species to be able to have that conversation.
00:01:31
Ross
Yeah, yeah, i was going to say that. Yeah, on my previous archeological dig, I did come up, you know, like I don't, that's all I got. So yeah, so physical buttons. So like, look at the world of tablets and cars with massive screen dashboards where I want to adjust the AC and I've got a tap on the screen. And quite honestly, it's actually very dangerous in my opinion.
00:01:57
Ross
but I kind of miss physical buttons. I think that's why mechanical keyboards are so popular amongst a lot of people because of the tactile feel.
00:01:59
Gregg
Well,
00:02:05
Gregg
well I don't know if there's so much that as much as they aren't paying attention. Like we listen to key clicks, right? I think people like the deep set sound of the ah the feeling of the button because they've got headphones on listening to techno music like they're in the grandma's boy movie.
00:02:21
Gregg
Right. So I don't know how much of that is.
00:02:23
Ross
yeah
00:02:25
Gregg
i mean, I think tactical tactile feel tactile feel is important. I know that when they released my car now, my car is old. It's 2013. But when they released when they released that version of the car, the first three editions, so mine being like number two were number three edition in that series, think it came out in 2011.
00:02:44
Gregg
They had a slider bar that was capacitive, right? Capacitive slider bar for for air and for volume.
00:02:48
Ross
Mmm. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you mean.
00:02:50
Gregg
And people hated it.
00:02:50
Ross
Yeah.
00:02:52
Gregg
They wanted the button. They want the knobs back. They wanted the knobs to turn the volume up and down or the air to have a slider or something that you can actually physically feel the air going up because knowing where you are in the air sensitivity is is difficult, right?
00:02:54
Ross
Yeah.
00:03:01
Ross
Yep.
00:03:06
Ross
Mm-hmm.
00:03:07
Gregg
They've solved some of that in the screens with the whole idea of like they actually tell you the temperature. So you know how ah ah supposedly I think it's all an illusion.
00:03:15
Ross
how
00:03:15
Gregg
I don't know how much where where the thermometer is because if it's next to the radio,
00:03:15
Ross
yeah how hot it or cold it is. Yeah.
The Value of Handwritten Notes
00:03:19
Gregg
it's going to be hot.
00:03:20
Gregg
So I don't know where the thermometer is.
00:03:21
Ross
Or if it's right at 10 and two on my steering wheel, it's ice cold because my hands, I can't like, my hands are frozen by the time I get to a place because the air is, you know, and I recognize I have just like, yeah, corpse hands anyways, according to my spouse.
00:03:28
Gregg
Yeah.
00:03:32
Gregg
Just just just.
00:03:38
Ross
But, but yeah. So that yeah, I think it's, there's an element of that. And I think I know what you mean by the tactile feel. I think it's, It's trying to be technologically advanced, but there is some element of convenience of flipping a switch or turning a knob. I love a good knob, but you know flipping a switch, you know doing something like that, that we seem to have over-indexed.
00:04:04
Gregg
Well, i think it's the same thing as last conversation where we talked about you know physical media and the idea that people like to pull a record out of out of an album and they like to be able to pull touch something, feel something, see something.
00:04:17
Gregg
i think there's a I think we get into this more and more. I think we're getting old, Ross, because we continue to re...
00:04:24
Ross
Well, yeah, it's this is a total get off my lawn conversation.
00:04:28
Gregg
Yeah, we we continue to land in nostalgia.
00:04:28
Ross
Right.
00:04:30
Gregg
But as far as physical buttons go, I know that I wonder how much of it's about a learning thing as much of its actual joy, right? Because I remember when they took the button off of the iPhone and that was a whole thing for for two generations of phones.
00:04:45
Ross
Oh, yeah.
00:04:47
Gregg
People complained that they wanted the button back and Apple was playing with at the time. to put a button somewhere in the middle. So you knew like when you press down, it would make the button.
00:04:55
Ross
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:04:56
Gregg
But now six generations, seven generations in the iPhone. Now I don't think people miss the button so much.
00:05:03
Ross
No, it's because Apple had courage and they released haptic feedback. So it's all it's all better.
00:05:08
Gregg
I did.
00:05:08
Ross
and
00:05:10
Gregg
yeah i do
00:05:10
Ross
So...
00:05:12
Gregg
But I do think from an ease of use perspective, there is definitely, I think the screens haven't come along yet where the sensitivity is in millimeters, where you feel comfortable pressing the buttons. And sometimes you're not pressing in the right place for the button to go up and down. So I think there's still work
Evolution of Communication Methods
00:05:28
Gregg
to be done.
00:05:29
Gregg
I just don't know if physical buttons are coming back.
00:05:32
Ross
Yeah. And so that's that so that's one. i think the other one that I was noodling on, which is more of a activity that, and maybe I just haven't pen paled enough, but when's the last time you wrote like a handwritten letter or note to someone?
00:05:53
Ross
I feel like you're the type of person who's done that recently, but I feel like you just don't, there's not a lot of handwriting anymore.
00:05:54
Gregg
why
00:05:59
Gregg
I don't do it as often as I should. i think... i Now, here's the question that I would have for people 100 years ago. if you know, how valuable is a handwritten note? I think people recognize how long it takes to write a note.
00:06:15
Gregg
And I think there's a there's a level of perspective. I don't think that's gone away. I think there's still this idea of... if you take the time to write me a note and actually put your pen to paper, put it in the mail, there's a sense of value.
00:06:29
Gregg
And you see that a lot in psychology with the idea of like, people are like, well, direct mail doesn't work anymore for advertising and those things. But if the business you want, but if, so a business wants to get new customers, sometimes having people actually look like, look like they wrote a note to you, send it to your mailbox and,
00:06:45
Ross
Even the perception of...
00:06:47
Gregg
it gives you a sense that there's more value to what they're doing than necessarily like they, they value you more. And so I think handwritten notes still have value.
00:06:54
Ross
Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of like the... It's kind of like the thought that counts. It's the effort that counts. It's almost like you're you're bundling that with, you know, there's the whole thought that counts of buying someone flowers.
00:07:07
Ross
You go, you do that. But then there's the effort of, oh, I also wrote a handwritten note. I put something together. Like I recently... I did a fun little, we had at at work, we had a round of promotions and I did a little fun little thing where i made like Pokemon cards for my team members and put like a skill on it and everything else and pasted on there.
00:07:31
Ross
I actually had a lot of fun doing it quite honestly. But, but I wanted like, I wanted somebody to have a little memento for that. But also, I mean, I put some effort into that too, because I wanted to demonstrate like, Hey, I,
00:07:43
Ross
I care about this individual. I think they earned it. I think they deserve it, that type of thing. But it's it's kind of like the effort of the thing. And I think that's where handwriting something, and quite honestly, cursive, when you want to talk about something that is straight up eradicated from the universe, unless you're signing that little thing at the bottom of the SAT saying that you promised blah, blah, blah.
00:08:07
Ross
Dude, where did cursive go? I mean, it is Like, is it even valuable?
00:08:12
Gregg
Did you really like cursive, Ross? Did you like cursive?
00:08:14
Ross
Oh, no, I hated it. I hated it.
00:08:16
Gregg
I hated i hated cursive in school.
00:08:16
Ross
This is this is definitely one of those things. Yeah, this is definitely one of those things that I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be sad or miss. I think there's, you know, there's an element of it's like, it almost seems pretentious.
00:08:30
Ross
But I don't know. I mean, I get it.
00:08:31
Gregg
my My handwriting is is not great.
00:08:32
Ross
There's a there's an element.
00:08:34
Gregg
Right. I never got great at handwriting. And I think it's the time and value. I was watching Sleepy Hollow last night and you watch Johnny Depp and you know, it's not him, but you watch the pen writing in the book with a beautiful script.
00:08:46
Gregg
Like it's really pretty script. And you wish that like you could write like that, but you also realize how long it takes to, to, to a teach yourself how to do that. The 10,000 hours to get good at something, but also just,
00:08:58
Ross
Yes.
00:09:00
Gregg
how pretty it is, but it's also how much, like, is that a skill that's as rewarded today as before? Probably not. The handwritten note is one thing.
00:09:11
Gregg
Getting a note is the act of getting it and the nice things that someone says, but it's the note receipt that's so important, right?
00:09:12
Ross
Mm-hmm.
00:09:17
Ross
Yeah. Yes.
00:09:19
Gregg
Uh, You know, I think about memos at work, right? Before email, people used to get memos at work and someone would have to actually sit. And a lot of guys had typists. So someone had to sit and type that and then put it on someone else's desk.
00:09:34
Gregg
So you got far fewer memos during a day because there was significant amount of work because someone had to give it to his typist.
00:09:38
Ross
Oh yeah.
00:09:42
Gregg
The typist had to then take the notes, translate them into a note, then go provide that note to someone else. Then that person has to give it to the other person. Then that person has to draft a response to that memo and send it back. And so everything was important.
00:09:56
Gregg
Otherwise it wasn't worth having it. you You'd have a discussion about it or wait to the meeting or on and so forth. We assume productivity because we're able to give verbal communication so much faster.
00:10:07
Gregg
And yet 99% of the things that I receive in my email box at work have very little value.
00:10:07
Ross
Yes.
00:10:13
Ross
Oh, yeah. I also say, would you would you be okay with this going to five different people before getting to me? Or would you feel that's a waste of time? Because if you do, don't send me that email, please.
00:10:24
Ross
Just wait.
00:10:25
Gregg
Right. And I think, i think people, there's this this idea that because communication is so like easily provided written wise, so easily provided that you should always be in a loop.
00:10:37
Gregg
Also, I think people misinterpret someone's ego and their lack of man, like their lack of being in, in Charge or responsibility. This idea that leaders want to be aware of everything, because if they're aware of if they're not aware of everything, they're caught, they're caught on the mat, they're flat footed, as it were.
00:10:57
Gregg
And I used to, I used to trip out of that a lot, especially in the organization that you and I both worked at. it's a very command and control type structure, every leader has to be aware of everything. And I sat there and went, so about three hours of a day, you've lost that leader's productivity because they had to read bunch of emails, not knowing which ones are important versus what are going to be important and what do they need to have for a meeting and what's going to get brought up and what isn't going to be brought up.
00:11:13
Ross
Read all the things.
00:11:21
Gregg
And so it's it's one of those pieces where if you had handwritten notes, you would know it was important because someone took time to write that out, to take the time to put them
00:11:21
Ross
Yep. It's.
00:11:28
Ross
Can you imagine? Can you imagine? I might do that. I might write a handwritten note. I don't know. My boss is remote. Say write a handwritten note about what what my boss needs to know for the week and then enter office, mail it.
00:11:39
Gregg
Yeah.
00:11:40
Ross
Be like, here's what you need to know by the time it gets there.
00:11:42
Gregg
Yeah.
00:11:45
Ross
Right. We've talked about that in four meetings. I know, but it was very important. I invested my time to do it. But you're but you're right. And I think that's the other thing that when you look at... here's Here's another one that on that same vein that gives me a significant amount of anxiety that doesn't happen anymore, thankfully.
00:12:05
Ross
Voicemails. Which is basically a quick way to deliver that handwritten note.
00:12:06
Gregg
yeah
00:12:13
Ross
But also... You got one shot, right? You know, mom's spaghetti, man. You're going to lay it out there, phone call ends, and you're done.
00:12:23
Ross
is there i don't I'm not going to miss voicemails, but I feel like what's the most what's the most elaborate voicemail you've left? Have you left like a two-minute voicemail before, Greg?
00:12:34
Gregg
I only leave voicemails now when it's for the doctor. Like if you get a hold of... Nowadays, you don't seem to have someone who answers your phone right away.
00:12:41
Ross
Mm-hmm.
00:12:43
Gregg
So it's always leaving a message.
00:12:44
Ross
So people that are hard to get a hold of. Yeah, people that are tough to get a hold of.
00:12:46
Gregg
Right. And there's no other way to contact them. So so one of the things I like is you're starting to see doctor's offices start to have text message or chat messages. Even if you leave a voicemail, you get a response back as a text message because they assume you have a mobile phone.
00:12:56
Ross
Mm-hmm.
00:13:01
Gregg
I think text messages have replaced because they're so cheap. Remember when we were younger, Text messages were 10 cents each. Right. Or you got a certain number. You got like 90 text messages a month.
00:13:11
Ross
Mm-hmm.
00:13:12
Gregg
Right. It started out like it was not meant. It wasn't a function that was meant to become the way in which we communicate with each other.
00:13:20
Ross
Yeah, absolutely.
00:13:20
Gregg
It was just in addition for like it was replacing the pager culture, which you were supposed to just send a 20 character or 30 character like call me.
00:13:21
Ross
absolutely
00:13:28
Gregg
Here's a number. Right. It wasn't meant to have full on chat discussions, which is what it's become. Right. And I think what's happened now is, hey, call me back.
00:13:34
Ross
Yeah.
00:13:38
Gregg
My mom still leaves me voice messages, but then she'll now she knows to send a text message on top of it.
00:13:41
Ross
That's nice.
00:13:43
Gregg
I think I have, hold on let me check my phone to give to give Ross, Ross who's very particular about making sure everything's deleted. i have 307 unlistened to voice messages and 118 unread text messages.
00:13:52
Ross
Bro, bro.
00:13:55
Gregg
right Most of those text messages, by the way,
00:13:56
Ross
That that gives that like, I'm like like, like, I'm like sweating and like bothers me so much.
00:14:00
Gregg
Yeah. Well, I've answered the voicemails I need to. Most of it's spam. The text message I've answered, most of them.
00:14:06
Ross
Sure.
00:14:06
Gregg
Sometimes I leave them unread in hopes of going back to talk to them. But I went back to my phone yesterday and one of my friends from San Antonio had sent me a message back in February and I still haven't responded because it wasn't anything to respond to.
00:14:17
Gregg
it was like i didn't have It was small talk and I get really annoyed with small talk.
00:14:21
Ross
it was like a it was like it was rhetorical It was rhetorical small talk where you don't know if you need to respond and that's going to start something else or you just you just end it.
00:14:25
Gregg
Yeah.
00:14:30
Gregg
Well, it just didn't have any, I think that the challenge for me in communication is that I'm overloaded with communication all the time. And I'm not exactly sure how to respond. It's not timely. Right.
00:14:40
Ross
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:41
Gregg
And so I, I should be more active a communicator, but I've gotten to the point now where I'm not necessarily as eager to to communicate with everyone. So, but have you left a voicemail?
00:14:49
Ross
Yeah, you got choose because the it. man. Yeah. because of because of the nature but oh man
00:14:56
Ross
I try not to, if at all possible, because I'm i'm a bit of a perfectionist, so I want to nail it. But i'm also I'm also extremely verbose, which I've been given that feedback by those close to me that I'm extremely verbose.
00:15:08
Gregg
Uh-huh.
00:15:13
Ross
So voicemails always, like, they get in my head. It's like, all right, get to the point, Ross. But then I'm, like, trying to explain, like, chapter one. It was 84 degrees this morning with 92% humidity when I decided I needed to talk to you about, and this is to my doctor, about you know my next checkup.
00:15:35
Ross
Now, I've left a long voicemail, but it's been a very long time. It's been a very long time. And I agree, the whole doctor's portal where the doctor can text you back and forth, while that's, I would have never thought even 10 years ago that a doctor would be
Impact of Social Media and Algorithms on Content Discovery
00:15:50
Ross
just interacting with me, which it's probably ah chatbot at this point, but you know a doctor interacting with me over text is is pretty wild.
00:15:56
Gregg
what
00:15:59
Gregg
If you think about communication, it's it's interesting. So we have this format, right? So we have a podcast format and we talk to each other and we have a conversation about randomness and just, you know, just catching up basically.
00:16:10
Gregg
What people don't realize is is how we catch up, right? We don't really talk about our lives specifically.
00:16:12
Ross
Yeah.
00:16:14
Gregg
We just talk about random things that we're thinking about and what's interesting and whatever's happening.
00:16:18
Ross
Yep.
00:16:20
Gregg
And I think that's a different form of communication. And I think with people you're close to, you want to have those communications. Voicemail doesn't allow that, doesn't allow interaction. I had one of my buddies listen our podcast and he says, while he's listening to it, the problem with listening to us is that he wants to jump in with his own points because of how our podcast is designed, right?
00:16:37
Ross
Uh huh. Yep.
00:16:39
Gregg
so So for us, so for us it's it's very much that way, right?
00:16:39
Ross
Yes.
00:16:43
Gregg
Voicemail doesn't allow interactivity. So now you're left with a position of like, I've got to tell you all this detail and information. You want to make it relevant. You want to make it set. And I think the same thing with text messages. People check in because they feel like they should, right?
00:16:55
Gregg
Like I haven't checked in with Greg in a while. I haven't checked in with Ross in a while. Let me check.
00:16:58
Ross
an obligation.
00:16:59
Gregg
Let me check in and send a note. And then you send a note you have nothing to say. right Because there's no purpose for us to talk to each other.
00:17:04
Ross
Mm.
00:17:05
Gregg
Right. Like, except for like, hi, you're still alive.
00:17:06
Ross
Yeah.
00:17:07
Gregg
I'm glad that you have a pulse. That's exciting.
00:17:09
Ross
Yeah, right.
00:17:10
Gregg
Right. But there's not much there's and most communication is set up like in this back and forth. Most communication is set up. So either I'm going to get information from you or I'm going to provide information or I'm going to provide information your direction.
00:17:24
Gregg
Right. And that's that's how communication is designed.
00:17:24
Ross
Yes.
00:17:27
Gregg
Text messages is weird because if you're just texting someone and say, hey, how are you? The response is, I'm good. How are you? They're going respond back, I'm good. That's it. Your conversation's over with. Unless you have something else to talk about on a text message chat, there's there's nothing else.
00:17:39
Ross
You're done.
00:17:41
Ross
No, there's nothing else.
00:17:42
Gregg
And it's kind of what's interesting about the replacement of social media as a way of knowing what's going on in other people's lives. You don't know what's going in their lives. You know what they're showing you. Same with text messages, right?
00:17:53
Ross
Bingo.
00:17:54
Gregg
Unless you have something really big to talk about, like there's really not much to... Yeah.
00:18:01
Ross
And I think it's interesting that that medium, social media, slowly navigated towards the goods. Because remember, when social media first started, people would post random pictures of their breakfast and just stuff that it was like, it was almost like they were showing their entire life.
00:18:14
Gregg
Yeah.
00:18:17
Ross
And then, you know, recently, couple of years ago, the Be Real app happened where, you know, you post what's happening right now. And people tried to get into that. But then people realized nobody cares.
00:18:30
Ross
They don't, they don't, they're not interested in that.
00:18:31
Gregg
No.
00:18:33
Ross
So it's always going to anchor back to what is, if you're, if it's a medium where people can't respond back and it's just broadcasting to it, it's all going to be about what they're, what they want to show at the moment.
00:18:49
Gregg
Well, think that's what you're seeing now with the, to your point about reels or Tik TOK or those things is that there's kind of three, in my mind, three real kind of presentations that happened on Tik TOK.
00:19:00
Gregg
One is, and predominantly what it is, is that they're a replacement for television. So it's really pretty much people who are want to be actors that are putting on a two and a half minute show, right?
00:19:11
Ross
yeah
00:19:11
Gregg
It's clip show, right? They're putting on a two and a half minute show of some sort of relevant piece of stuff. Two, it's advertising, right? It's subtle advertising, but they'll be like, hey, here's the top 10 restaurants you should go in Charlotte.
00:19:23
Gregg
Anybody who doesn't know that that's just a big old ad for for for two minutes is crazy, right?
00:19:27
Ross
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:28
Gregg
And then I think is the...
00:19:28
Ross
You got, you got to consider that.
00:19:31
Gregg
And I think the third is probably, it's it's separate than the acting. It's lifestyle pieces. It's like you have to put on, you have to have something. So whether you're showing your dogs or showing whatever or showing something, there are these little cute, little funny lifestyle activities that happen.
00:19:47
Gregg
Those are the three things I think TikTok has become. there's There's probably maybe if you take the acting, you could split that out because there's like pundits or wannabe political pundits. And then there's you know comedy sketches.
00:20:00
Gregg
And then there's you know cooking shows, et cetera. But there's shows, right? There's shows.
00:20:04
Ross
Yes.
00:20:05
Gregg
Then there's the ads that are...
00:20:05
Ross
Yes.
00:20:07
Gregg
Not ads, but ads where you're either advertising yourself or advertising something, restaurants or something. And then it's the the kind of like puff piece stuff that you would see on CBS Sunday morning about some animal and whatever.
00:20:19
Gregg
Like that's pretty much what I think you're getting. Do you see anything else in the social media realm from a real perspective?
00:20:25
Ross
No, no, I really don't. And I, and I try to avoid it. it Like, i mean, this is once again, get off my lawn. This is the, Hey, we're getting old episode, or we knew that, but I don't, I don't have Tik TOK.
00:20:39
Ross
I am sent a curated list of reels that people who know me very well send me because they know I'll like them. So it's the best algorithm anybody could have, but it truly is people either trying to get that dopamine hit of people liking their stuff or the people going one step further and trying to monetize it and get something out of it. They turned it into a gig, which is cool. I mean, bravo to them.
00:21:05
Ross
Like, the you know, the element of figuring out a way as a side hustle and then it becoming your main hustle to make money. But I really do think that's where it's at. And I think the lifestyle stuff, the stuff that makes you chuckle, that makes you laugh, like it's making you laugh.
00:21:20
Ross
They're probably trying to monetize it. But, you know, it's like, okay, you you made me laugh. That's fine. But I don't see a whole lot. There's nothing. I mean, some people use it for advice.
00:21:32
Ross
Like, hey, I want to do some yard work. Let me go to hashtag yard work and see if there's some cool yard designs or some stuff that people are doing that I can pull ideas from. So almost as like a brainstorming type of thing.
00:21:46
Ross
So I see people using it for that. When I talk to folks, they use it as a brainstorming piece, but those are the main reasons I would see people using that medium.
00:21:56
Gregg
Well, thinking about things that have gone away, think about organic, right? Think about organic delivery of information. Like nothing's organic anymore, right? Everything is governed by an algorithm.
00:22:04
Ross
No.
00:22:06
Gregg
Now, someone could argue that classic television, there was a set of board of directors and some programming directors and people who came together to say yes, and there was focus groups. So it wasn't all natural.
00:22:18
Gregg
But why? But because of the ability to, mean, take music, right? it The ability to record music in your living, in your, I was one of the first back in the day with dorm room recording, like actually getting recording equipment and like, you know, it really started in the mid nineties where you were able to really start to record music.
00:22:38
Gregg
audio yourself, but now look at it. I mean, you can run almost a pretty good studio from your bedroom. So now you're able to, you're seeing so much more music being put out onto SoundCloud, out into the market.
00:22:49
Gregg
So you need something to reduce the noise because there's so much content.
00:22:54
Ross
Yes.
00:22:55
Gregg
You need something to teach you.
00:22:55
Ross
Yeah.
00:22:56
Gregg
So that's where the algorithm came in. But now the algorithm is creating an inorganic delivery of information.
00:23:04
Ross
Yeah, absolutely. Like going to going to a concert in the 90s to see a band that you like and naturally sing the opener and like you've never heard their stuff before or you've only heard one of their songs, like, oh my goodness, I really like this band. I need to go pick up their CD.
00:23:21
Ross
That doesn't happen anymore because bands you like, similar artists, it's going to slam your feet.
00:23:21
Gregg
Right.
00:23:28
Ross
Like you're not, you don't run into, you know, bands regularly that you haven't heard of or been inundated with because an algorithm told you so. Just like TV shows. so If I like a certain TV show at work, all I have to do is say that one TV show and I can probably find four others that those same individuals like as well because it's all been recommended to them.
00:23:47
Gregg
Right.
00:23:48
Ross
It hasn't been like, oh, I naturally stumbled upon this.
00:23:48
Gregg
What?
00:23:52
Gregg
Well, I always wonder how, so I always joke is called, I think a comedian called it the Elton John effect, right? Where it's like Elton John's music is not that great. You just heard it a bunch on the radio in the seventies and people started liking Elton John, right?
00:24:04
Gregg
I don't know how true that is, but I think there's probably a lot of music that is that way. I think a lot of TV and movies are that can be that way.
00:24:09
Ross
Mm-hmm.
00:24:11
Gregg
But what is, but the question is, is do you genuinely like it or are you forced it because the algorithm forced it to you, right? So that's the question. Are we becoming a set of a of drones? We're no longer have agency over our ourselves because our content is curated for us.
00:24:27
Ross
I think it's i think it's it's a little bit of that yes, because we're, it's it's too it's the matter of convenience. I don't want to put the effort into going out and searching and listening to other music and trying different genres. This thing's going to recommend it, and it's good enough.
00:24:45
Ross
Like, I like a few of their songs. you know So I do think it's being dictated by, which is which is why it was interesting at work. Oh, man, this is forever. it's like, Seven or eight years ago. I mean, the algorithms were there. Spotify has been pretty good at it for a while. That's kind of their bread and butter.
00:25:02
Ross
But at work, we had a thing where each day of the week, someone would recommend an artist and you had to listen to like at least an hour of that artist. And it was dealer's choice. Each person could recommend just whatever artist that they liked and you had to listen to it. Now that was an interesting music discovery type of thing. It also wrecked my algorithm, which is why I would never do it again.
00:25:28
Ross
You know, and, and like people weren't like malicious and be like, okay, you can only listen to baby shark all day. You know, like there was, there was they but like the mountain goats, buddy of mine suggested the mountain goats.
00:25:34
Gregg
Yeah.
00:25:38
Gregg
Yeah.
00:25:40
Ross
I had never listened to the mountain goats. There's a, there's some mountain goat songs that I really like. And like, I'll listen to the mountain goats. I, Trust me, Ross's playlist of top five genres did not include anything folksy or anything that the mountain goats would be played.
00:25:55
Gregg
yeah
00:25:56
Ross
But it was interesting. But like that was the last time I feel like I've ever really determined, like found something that wasn't recommended to me from some sort of algorithm.
00:26:10
Ross
And it's been eight years.
00:26:10
Gregg
Yeah. I mean, it's, it is one of those things where, I mean, I do like it to find new music. I do like the idea that you can listen to one song and it'll find other songs.
00:26:21
Gregg
And then the algorithm is good enough to at least put some of the stuff, like I'll put one new song and then two songs you kind of like, you haven't listened to it in a while. And then one that you listen to all the time, right?
00:26:29
Ross
Uh-huh,
00:26:32
Gregg
It's why when you turn in your car, all of a sudden you're listening to the same song 17 times every time you turn the car on, because it wants to play the song you really like first.
00:26:38
Ross
uh-huh. Yeah, they're like they're like, oh, I know.
00:26:39
Gregg
And then,
00:26:40
Ross
This one's a banger. He's going to like that one. what it doesn't What it doesn't know is, well, it does, but it hasn't gotten smart enough.
00:26:42
Gregg
Yeah.
00:26:49
Ross
It hasn't recognized when my wife's phone is also in the car. And it shouldn't even recommend a certain genre because it's going to be like an instant skip.
00:26:56
Gregg
Yeah.
00:26:58
Ross
And then when she's not in the car, then you can insert that genre back in because it's still, I'm just like, skip, skip, skip.
00:27:02
Gregg
Yeah.
00:27:04
Ross
And that's like, oh, he must not be into that anymore. I'm like, no, it's bigger than that. So there's, but there's a, there's an element of that, that I think you're right. I think it is, it has gone away and seeking that,
00:27:19
Ross
like naturally getting that information has gone away because we're so used to it. And I mean, you think about even, even seeking information and physically going to talk about going the way of the dodo bird, poor guy, phone books.
00:27:32
Gregg
Yeah.
00:27:32
Ross
Like you look at, you look at like cracking open a phone book to find like a plumber or something, which I think we have way, way, way advanced. I think the digital age has improved that by far.
00:27:45
Ross
But like seeking information, there's so many things that we could we could probably have an entire episode on things that you go learn and discover like music, like information, just general stuff has gone by the wayside.
From Personal Recommendations to Review Culture
00:27:59
Ross
And now with generative it's probably going to be even more so in the future about the way you consume information.
00:28:08
Gregg
Well, I think what's also changed too, Ross, is you know when you open a a white page or yellow pages, right? Let's just say you're looking for a plumber. the, the idea or behavior at that time was to put as big of an advertisement as possible.
00:28:22
Gregg
Like one, you name your company, you name your company, a, a plumbing, because you want to be at the top of the phone book as well as you want to have a big ad and you want people to see you and, and then see like you put reviews there, at least the stars or whatever.
00:28:23
Ross
Yeah, right in your face.
00:28:37
Gregg
We've become such a review culture because we don't know. we, we, we don't want to be surprised anymore. I had this conversation.
00:28:44
Ross
Yes.
00:28:44
Gregg
So, so my girlfriend and I went out to, ice cream, right? So we went out to ice cream and it's not a place that she's used to, right?
00:28:54
Gregg
It's brand new place. And so we got there and I felt bad and I'm much more for experimentation, right?
00:28:56
Ross
Okay.
00:28:59
Gregg
So I'm much more for let's go try something.
00:28:59
Ross
No, you don't. You don't say.
00:29:02
Gregg
Let's go try something new I haven't tried this one. Let's go try this. and And she's open to it in a new place where none of us have any intel, but in a place like where we live, she wants to go to a place that she's familiar with because she knows what she's going to get.
00:29:16
Gregg
And so she wasn't as thrilled about the ice cream yesterday.
00:29:16
Ross
ye
00:29:19
Gregg
But but that we were out of town the past last weekend and we found an ice cream place that had really amazing ice cream and she had a great time, but she was more open to it because she didn't have any, any information.
00:29:30
Gregg
And I think that's where we are now with, with experiences. because you have access to lots of information. By the way, most reviews are skeptical. I am skeptical about, right? We went to a restaurant and they were like, cause you also don't know who the clientele is.
00:29:39
Ross
Total sus.
00:29:43
Gregg
Like they're not you who's writing the review. I saw in and a review on the Google maps, right? I was looking at the Google maps for a place to eat, whatever. And it said, I don't believe the price of the dishes match the quality of the food, blah, blah, blah, all these stuff.
00:29:56
Gregg
And there were several of them like that. And i went there and went, okay, how expensive is this place? I walk in, the plates are like $17. And I'm like, okay, so it's 17 bucks. That's kind of what it costs to eat at Chili's.
00:30:10
Gregg
So I'm like,
00:30:11
Ross
Yeah, i was gonna say that's kind of the normal now. and We're not gonna into that.
00:30:14
Gregg
I'm like, okay.
00:30:14
Ross
But yeah, that's normal.
00:30:15
Gregg
I mean, maybe a little more expensive than Chili's, but not much, not much more expensive.
00:30:17
Ross
Sure, 12 to 15. But yeah.
00:30:20
Gregg
So i we ordered, and it was great. It was fantastic food. I had no idea what these people were talking about. And then you realize the restaurants that are close around there are in the $10, $9 range. Right.
00:30:32
Gregg
and you go
00:30:33
Ross
it's, it's, but it's the comps, right?
00:30:37
Ross
What's comparable around.
00:30:37
Gregg
right Right.
00:30:39
Ross
That's why somebody because it's their bubble.
00:30:40
Gregg
and so and so they go right And so they go double the price. It wasn't double the quality of food. And you go, it's still $17. It's not like you paid $50.
00:30:48
Ross
Mm hmm.
00:30:50
Gregg
a
00:30:50
Ross
Yeah.
00:30:51
Gregg
Elasticity on $9 versus $17, when you put cloth napkins in places, you've got waitstaff and everything else, the the quality of food is only going to expand so much.
00:31:02
Ross
Yes, yes.
00:31:02
Gregg
Versus if you're going from $9 to $30, now you've got a little bit more of expensive window and so on and so forth.
00:31:08
Ross
Bigger of a gap, yeah.
00:31:09
Gregg
Right. And so, yeah review but we're so hell-bent on reviews, and that's the difference. I think phone books have gone away, namely because people don't want to make a decision until they have a lot more information. They get paralysis with their decisions, and that's that's a new thing of the modern era.
00:31:25
Ross
Yeah, and I think, and I know we're we're coming close to time, but I think there's one thing when you say that, that I hope doesn't go away, which is the word of mouth recommendations and the, I've used this, talk to somebody who's used it, ask the back and forth questions.
00:31:45
Ross
Like, I hope that doesn't go away because quite honestly, I get the most benefit from talking to somebody that I know. one I know how they use things and their attitude towards things.
00:31:57
Ross
And I can ask them, like, would you recommend that food place? Like, you know, my eating habits, you know, my eating styles.
00:32:01
Gregg
Right. Yeah.
00:32:03
Ross
When I come visit you, we're going to go to a place and you're going like, all right, Ross, I know you said you're fine going here, but you said you're quote fine. Like, are you going to enjoy this or not?
00:32:11
Gregg
yeah
00:32:13
Ross
It's, it's kind of that conversation. And I really hope that doesn't go away because the whole like conversational recommendation thing and having somebody tell you that is huge to me.
00:32:26
Gregg
ah ah and Well, i think that's what the algorithm was trying to replace is that I think as we became more nuclear as a society, right? So all these things come in place because we stopped doing things sociologically, right?
00:32:36
Gregg
Like if you lived in a small little – if you lived in a town where you knew everybody, you knew John was your buddy.
00:32:36
Ross
Yes.
00:32:41
Gregg
He's your he's a plumber. know the guy who does electrician because he's your cousin. you You know where to get groceries because you've been going to get groceries with Tom from the church since you were a kid.
00:32:53
Gregg
right like When you live in a small community, you know everything. When we move and we started to become much more nuclear, where we don't necessarily trust everybody and everything, we we had to rely on other things like reviews for information, for stuff.
00:32:56
Ross
Yeah.
00:33:06
Gregg
and But that illusion is it's not real, right? That's what it is. It's an illusion. So I don't think humans are going to change. Whenever you find a close friend, if they tell you, Hey, I want to try out this restaurant or Hey, I heard this was really great. Or Hey, this is a great neighborhood or this is whatever.
00:33:24
Gregg
I think you're more apt to listen if you know, because you know who they are.
00:33:26
Ross
Mm-hmm.
00:33:28
Gregg
Now I have the same thing with some of my friends where I'm like, they'll be like, Hey, this is great.
00:33:28
Ross
Yes.
00:33:31
Gregg
I'm like, no,
00:33:33
Ross
No.
00:33:33
Gregg
Like nothing, you your your your stamp of approval is not good.
00:33:33
Ross
No hard pass.
00:33:36
Gregg
It's like Marshall from How I Met Your Mother. No, we're not going to get the soup. like you Like it's, but but that's because you have that, you have a lot more information available to you than just the review itself.
00:33:42
Ross
Yes. Correct.
00:33:48
Gregg
You have a lot more pieces of of content and you wonder if that's coming.
00:33:48
Ross
Correct.
00:33:52
Gregg
I don't know what you think. Do you think that's going to happen where people are going to start writing reviews? I mean, at Amazon tried to do the thing where they said, right, they purchased the item, et cetera.
00:33:59
Ross
Like they purchased the item, like this person purchased it. Yeah, they haven't returned it. I think it's going to get there. I think what will probably happen, and this is probably way too much futurism talk, but think what will happen is you'll get to a place where the data that, speaking of something that's gone away, privacy, the data that everything online has about you will get to the point to where they know what I order at that restaurant every time, and that I'm a picky eater with this and all those things.
00:34:31
Ross
So then i go to Google and I look at the rating. And for me, it's a 4.6 out of five stars. For you, Greg, it's a 3.2 because you're like, I would not eat at that place. And I'm like, yeah, but the dish that I always get Like I would, I would love that dish right down to the point of it crawls it and it knows almost what ingredients it uses based off of the photos it shows.
00:34:57
Ross
And like, I think that's the scary part. It will get, it will get to there to where it's customized personally for me. So then ratings won't matter anymore.
00:35:04
Gregg
But what's, okay, so I want to, I want to I think we can set ourselves up for a podcast for next time. Because here's, here's what's interesting about that conversation about data. I've been in analytics my whole career, 20 years.
00:35:16
Gregg
And I've listened to the same thing forever. One day, we're going to get to this place with data, where we're going to be able to tell everything about you and be able to put this together, so on and so forth, right?
Conclusion and Future Topics
00:35:24
Gregg
You're in data, you know, as well as I do, how much data there is and how very little of it is organized, right?
00:35:30
Gregg
i have I'm starting to feel like this data world where it's going to be able to know you, right?
00:35:30
Ross
Absolutely.
00:35:36
Gregg
Nuance knowing you is one thing. Like if I know, like if I have an app that's built, right?
00:35:38
Ross
Yes.
00:35:40
Gregg
That says, okay, here's the clothes you buy. And now I can make other clothes algorithms for it.
00:35:45
Ross
Suggestions?
00:35:45
Gregg
and i And I make a very specific algorithm.
00:35:45
Ross
Yeah.
00:35:48
Gregg
Now, the funny part, and you know this, the guy who can do that doesn't have access to all that data because the guy who does have all the data doesn't keep track of all of it, right? So I'm starting to wonder if all these data pieces is more like flying cars.
00:35:56
Ross
Absolutely.
00:36:00
Gregg
And so maybe next podcast is the things that never showed up because I'm starting to wonder if that's actually ever going to happen, Ross.
00:36:04
Ross
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:07
Gregg
Figuring out on your plate whether whether all the ingredients are there, that's going be done now, right?
00:36:07
Ross
Yeah.
00:36:11
Gregg
You've got all sorts of things that can do that.
00:36:13
Ross
Yes.
00:36:13
Gregg
whether you're going to like it or not is a whole different story because just like perfume, you might like Bergamot, but if I put rose water in it, all of a sudden you don't like it anymore.
00:36:16
Ross
That's tough.
00:36:21
Gregg
Right? So it's like, it's, I don't know where we are with data.
00:36:23
Ross
Yeah, it's very, very niche. Yeah, it it requires an insane amount of knowing the person. And then it even gets down to what you're feeling at the moment.
00:36:34
Ross
and that's And that's next to impossible real time to be able to do that without getting some.
00:36:38
Gregg
Yeah.
00:36:40
Ross
Now, if you get some input from the user in that moment and say, okay, I've got three additional questions for you. then you might be somewhere. But to do it automatically to a point where I said like a Google rating shifts based off of maybe each dish based off of what it knows about me.
00:36:53
Gregg
Right.
00:36:58
Ross
i agree. It's a ways away, but that's that's a good that's a good futurism topic.
00:37:00
Gregg
I mean, Google google knows. Google absolutely knows where I drive. They know what restaurants I go to. They know they have all that information. I use Google Maps. They don't know what I ordered. And they have to get the data from the restaurant and they're not anywhere close to getting that data. So it's just one of those things where I think we are very far behind the data curve as people, because I listened to all these AI futurists and I'm like, that stuff didn't happen 10 years ago and it ain't going happen in another 10.
00:37:25
Gregg
So.
00:37:25
Ross
Well, and the data and the data and the people that do own that data, data's power to own that. So why are they going to freely share that? I mean, Google's a data company. they don't They're not going to sell that information to someone else who wants to do that.
00:37:37
Ross
So, yep.
00:37:38
Gregg
Right. Right.
00:37:39
Ross
All right. Well, we'll have to tee that up of things that never showed up and maybe things that we do or don't want to show up. I mean, flying cars.
00:37:46
Gregg
Yeah.
00:37:47
Ross
I'm not in. i
00:37:48
Gregg
No, no, that's never going to happen, man.
00:37:50
Ross
i I've seen the way people drive in my city. Don't want them flying in my city.
00:37:54
Gregg
Yeah, no, no, not at all.
00:37:55
Ross
I promise you. All right, Greg. well As always, great conversation. Hopefully our podcast doesn't go the way of the dodo bird and we'll be back soon. All right.
00:38:07
Ross
See Greg.
00:38:07
Gregg
Thanks for us.