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USMNT post mortem with Charlie Boehm
227 Plays35 minutes ago
Charles Boehm joins Jeremiah to break down the overall performance of the USMNT at the World Cup. The two discuss what went wrong and what needs to change in the aftermath of how it all ended.
Follow Charles Boehm on BlueSky.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Sponsorship
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart podcast network. Here we go.
00:00:11
Speaker
Come on. Hey, O'Shaughness. Let's The Seattle Sounders have done it. MLS Cup winners. The Sounders rule the region.
00:00:43
Speaker
Ooch of a gooch! All creatures, great and small! Rothrock gonna collect it, he does just about, runs into the advertising order. Low to our left, ball goes in! Oh, what a Where's my copy? got bunch of them How many do you cost them? 50 bucks.
00:01:08
Speaker
I'll deadline you.
00:01:18
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounder supporters.
00:01:32
Speaker
They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, Pacific Northwest.
00:01:59
Speaker
Well,
00:02:02
Speaker
we are here at, or I should say, let me start over again.
Impact of World Cup on Daily Routine
00:02:07
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Nos Audietes on the SoundRot at Heart Podcast Network. Today is, what is it, Tuesday?
00:02:14
Speaker
Wednesday. Wednesday. don't even know what day it is anymore. That's the time. World Cup, baby. World Cup has just melted my brain. The vortex. Yeah. Actually, today's the first day with no games in, I don't know, X number of days.
00:02:28
Speaker
We're all catching our breath a little bit. Yeah, I know. It is kind of surreal to not have any games. I was surprised to actually realize that this morning. Yeah. But I'm with Charlie
Exploring New Video Content in Studio
00:02:36
Speaker
Boehm. We are in the Sounder at Heart studios. We are trying some new video content attempts.
00:02:42
Speaker
But if you're listening to this, it should sound just as well and perfect as ever. There's a throw pillow in here.
00:02:50
Speaker
with the open cup triple on it. Yeah. least move My mind. How many teams listen? I hope other fans or employees of other MLS clubs out there. Why aren't you making more throw pillows? Make the throw pillow when your team does something.
00:03:06
Speaker
That's that's that's I admire the hell out of that. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. This is open cup heritage. Let's go. Come on. Take it seriously. This matters. All right. You know, it was funny is that I went to zero to ninety nine. I know I was like, on the fence i was like I don't know if we're actually going to use the video from this, but now we have to. Yes. Now. Now we have to know even if the rest of it is shite. Right. Exactly. Yeah.
00:03:29
Speaker
So that's your that's your social media clip right there. Me shaking a pillow in the general direction of the camera. This guy like knows understand content. He understands.
Admiration for Seattle Sounders Memorabilia
00:03:38
Speaker
Listen, I drink one ounce of veneer and this is what happens.
00:03:42
Speaker
Trouble. It's so good. Well, it's my last day in Seattle and I'm finally having my first Raniere. I almost missed it. Thank God. Thank God. Jeremiah has. It's okay, right? That's not naughty, is it? To reveal this fact? No. The fridge is packed. The brand is strong. The fridge is packed with Raniere.
00:03:59
Speaker
You know, I can't take all the credit for that, but I will take some of the credit for that. Yes. Big up sound, a whole sound at heart. Lobby scorcher scene. Yeah. EBF girls. They're there. Did I have that right? They're in here as well. Yeah. It does cooler guild.
00:04:12
Speaker
They have not used the studio. They they're on the network, but they have not. the stick You're representing the stickers are all over. Yeah, exactly. So ah I'm here with Charlie Bowman. If I didn't say that.
00:04:22
Speaker
And we're going talk a little bit about the fallout from this USMNT crash out and sort of what Where we go from here. But before we get into the where we go, should we I do feel like we should talk a little bit about the game just to give a little bit more context now that we've had what I think can safely be said is the most disappointing performance, not the worst performance, but the most disappointing performance when you measure it against expectation and actual output.
Analyzing USMNT's World Cup Performance
00:04:52
Speaker
that in USS USMNT history, they, I don't know that they have ever fallen so hard so fast. And this game, i don't know if it completely erases how well they played in the first four games, but it was so bad that it at least makes you ask that question.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, so before we started recording, we were just saying that, you know, trying to trying to contextualize this and the losses happen. I bet a lot a large chunk of the listeners or watchers are are veterans who've seen seen this game and know the sport well and have and and are aware of just the the fundamental fact that as as many of the players and even the coach said, one of those days, some days you don't show up. you don't doesn't it just isn't ah isn't your day.
00:05:41
Speaker
That does happen, but for it to happen in front of what, I don't know if we've seen the numbers yet, but it's... Over 40 million people. More than 40 million people. Probably probably the biggest USMNT audience. The biggest soccer audience. no like let's Hey, actually, let's linger on that a little bit.
00:05:55
Speaker
It was not just the biggest USMNT audience. It was the biggest biggest soccer audience in... ah in U.S. history, it was bigger than any, any NBA Finals game, any World Series game, any NHL Stanley Cup game.
00:06:12
Speaker
This was the closest thing that U.S. soccer, that American soccer has ever had to a full-blown breakthrough moment. The only sporting events, bigger than any bowl game, the only sporting events that had bigger audiences than this in the United States were basically the NFL.
00:06:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, to to compare any sporting event to the State of the Union address, which is ah less of a draw than it once was, but it's still like one of those kind of um dates on the annual calendar that you always know is is going to draw a huge chunk of the of the nation's eyes to to a certain broadcast. And so ah Jeremiah coined this you know phrase that i I think makes a lot of sense here, which is that you know when you and you climb higher, you fall harder, right? so so I think you coined that.
00:06:58
Speaker
ah Well, I'm giving you credit. i know. I appreciate it. Okay. Take a compliment, you know? So no, but the, the, the fact that the, that the, the victories in three of the first, their first four matches were mostly inspiring enough. And the the general vibe around the tournament had gotten enough mainstream U S attention to, to get people really fired up. And, you know, uh, we were out and about on the streets around, ah The stadium formerly and futurely known as Lumen Field. Oh, that's right. We just saw Lumen Field. We just drove The FIFA covers over the word Lumen are already off. I don't know why I'm so, I don't know. I shouldn't be like, it's not like Lumen deserves my support. you know thats Just says okay a quick digression. Someone actually called us out on that. Like, why do you feel compelled to refer to it as like, is Lumen giving you?
00:07:48
Speaker
It's so true. We're probably just, it's probably just human nature. Yeah. And it's like, we feel like if you we don't call it Lumen Field, people won't know what we're talking about. Yeah. If only, well, that's the thing like BC place had a non-corporate name that sort of predated it. Right. So there's like a sense of, right. And yeah I grew up, uh, came of age as a soccer, uh, writer could go into ah RFK stadium and was always impervious to corporate name media. So maybe you need to just come up with,
00:08:12
Speaker
something. i don't know. Royal Braum Park is what the kids on the street call it. Oh, that's pretty good. The streets are pretty good. Royal Braum Park. If only that was, yeah, if only someone like me had hadn't known that already. but anyway, the point being, um you know, people were, the the the excitement was so palpable and the march to the match felt like It was miles long. I stood there for a half an hour.
00:08:35
Speaker
like i was like, I can't. My phone battery was dying because it was like, I can't record all this. This is amazing. We actually have data on that. The city says 25,000 people participated in that march. 15,000 were in the US-Australia march. So we're talking about a 40% increase in, no, more than 60% increase in foot traffic. And people wanted to participate in this thing.
00:08:58
Speaker
They think there was a million people in downtown Seattle. Yeah. mean, it's it's plausible. It's very plausible because the streets were packed, the bars were packed. every you know just like You really had that feeling of... you know and and And what's special about Seattle and and the downtown setting here is that is that many matches feel like that, right? But this was just at another level and and the excitement was so big that the sense of belief... So the ah we watched Mexico, England...
00:09:27
Speaker
um at the viewing plaza sort of. the Yeah, the mural amphitheater at Seattle Center. Right. So in in the shadow of the Space Needle and and I spotted as I was walking up that that i get Nike and and U.S. soccer had had done something ah with this flag. Yes. Right. There was a flag a big blue flag flying from the top of the Space Needle.
00:09:48
Speaker
And I had to i had to had to zoom in with a camera, but it said United States of Irrational Belief. And it really felt like Yeah, you know, i mean, we we all know, it's strictly coldly calculating objective perspective that it is
American Soccer Culture and Exceptionalism
00:10:04
Speaker
irrational. It is it is ah um uppity.
00:10:09
Speaker
it It is arrogant for a nation like the United States with with a relatively limited amount of pedigree on this stage compared especially to aristocrats like Portugal and the Netherlands and other like Columbia.
00:10:25
Speaker
Soccer nations. Yeah. With incredible history, tradition, quality, depth of player pool. Like they haven't won the men's world cup. So who are we to think that we could jump the line and so to speak, but that is how Americans. That's American. That's American exceptionalism. And I think at its best, maybe even like we're just talking about sporty. Like there's a lot of American exceptionalism that can be really toxic, right? But this is one where there's nothing wrong with believing you can win the World Cup.
00:10:52
Speaker
that is That is, and Pochettino, I think to his credit, Marcio Pochettino has tried to harness that. He spotted it. he you know You always get a different perspective on your country or culture from someone who comes from the outside.
00:11:06
Speaker
And he's sort of been, ah I called him a soccer to Tocqueville earlier this summer because there's a little bit of that. He he's spotted these little bits and pieces and he's he's picked up these tidbits from his American immersion and tried to ah roll them into into his motivational approach and his kind of the the vibe he's trying to build and the players were all bought in. The players really felt like they were going achieve something special, that they they could have a truly deep run and go further than any U.S. men's team had ever gone.
00:11:32
Speaker
The fans bought into that as well. Pochettino talked about the American character. This is what you do. You go to the moon, you you invent these incredible scientific breakthroughs, you do great things that no other or few other nations have have achieved and it's that belief.
00:11:48
Speaker
And And it just, you know, you had that sense of ah ah of that is gathering movement. um Wow. And and it even the players, as much as anyone, I think were were shocked, were gobsmacked by the speed and ugliness with which it it all shattered. And I think it would have been one thing if this happened around later against Spain.
00:12:12
Speaker
Like, I think somehow this would be a little bit more. tolerable or digestible if we had advanced beyond this round, gotten to Spain, and really sort of had that, you flew two coasts, you had that Icarus moment, you know, where you, like, look, what you think was happen with Spain? to happen with Argentina?
00:12:31
Speaker
did you think
Belgium vs. USMNT: A Tactical Analysis
00:12:32
Speaker
was going to happen with France? Whatever, like, some of these real powers who you say, like, those are the contenders to win the World Cup. Why did we think we were going to get in the arena with them?
00:12:42
Speaker
okay, you know, you can kind of go back and say, look, we have their levels here and we're not at that level, but we're talking about Belgium. i mean, let's be honest. Like i Belgium's a good team. They've been, they've been to a semifinal.
00:12:54
Speaker
I don't want to underplay them too much, but look, Switzerland's in a, in a quarterfinal. We are Switzerland by all, you know, in terms of like our soccer accomplishments, there's no reason that we shouldn't be looking at Switzerland as a, we should at least be able to do what Switzerland can do.
00:13:12
Speaker
And, and you, maybe you can argue that their path was slightly easier, but I don't know that Columbia is any worse than, than Belgium. I think, and maybe there's the lesson here, which is that,
00:13:25
Speaker
In raw numbers, and I want i wanted to pull this up, you know because we we think of Belgium as sort of a nearly team, right? They were they were long sort of also-ran on the European stage. Right. For a lot of people, a lot of older soccer lovers, one of the defining images of the Belgian national team is, I believe it was from World Cup 86, when there's ah there's an incredible photo of Maradona that sort of like crystallizes his genius and his his talent.
00:13:50
Speaker
They're playing Belgium, and there's like, I don't know, half a dozen Belgian defenders in this photo frame, all all and all completely focused on on Maradona as he's on the ball and trying to trying to shut him down and and of course, kick him and everything. And it was sort of like this was this was like a generic sort of median level European team. Right now, they they had their quote unquote golden generation, which it it turns out.
00:14:15
Speaker
monkey's paw scenario here, the U.S. current golden generation may wind up looking a little bit like like Belgium's. And if oh they go, they got to ah a World Cup semifinal. they They got to, I believe, a Euro semifinal as well. This is the the question is, you know, well and they may and then in the next couple of weeks here, they may yet get over the hump. Who knows? Right. But they are widely perceived to be um having underachieved a bit and kind of uh are not a feared commodity uh in these this quarterfinal field but alex freeman said after the game he told me in the mix zone like that so you just you can tell that this is a a veteran team that's had these multiple deep runs in tournaments all the little things and i was marveling at as much as the us didn't show up they laid an egg
00:15:01
Speaker
Man, ah that that Belgian team was ferocious. Just again, details, right? um They always get a little bit of contact on you. They're always riding the line with, and it's the stuff that Sounders fans will recognize from playing elite league Mechies teams in CONCACAF Champions Cup, right? And it's so...
00:15:18
Speaker
freaking hard to get over the hump and beat ah one, let alone a sequence of these type of teams because they every little thing they make, they make life difficult for you. It's the way they grab the jersey just enough to disrupt what you're doing, but not enough to fully draw the referee's attention.
00:15:34
Speaker
They commit just enough fouls to impose their rhythm on the game, but not enough to aggravate the referee and get and and start picking up cards. They will poke the ball away or leave a ball ah yeah in an in an awkward position and slow up your rhythm and keep you from from restarting on a throw-in or a corner kick quickly. like the The little bits of shithousery, right? these just like and and and then And then the recognition of when to flip the switch and when to go, right? just Just a complete squad. Again, we we talked about them as ah an underachiever, but I think i think you you have to stop and go, okay, maybe Belgium is the goal.
00:16:12
Speaker
right Maybe Belgium, because then Matt Doyle, and I wanted to to look it up, and you know i'll I'll try and find the number number here, but he had some numbers in in his column just came out today over on Tactics Free Zone about minutes in ah elite European leagues, and it all comes up to the Champions League, right? You know you want more of your players to be playing.
00:16:31
Speaker
more minutes. It's not just, it's first, you got to get to the clubs that are, that are in that picture to qualify for for that elite competition and be in those in, in that upper echelon. Then you want your players to be stacking up minutes. Then you want to stack up a bunch of those kind of those players in your player pool so that it's a dog fight for every minute on the pitch. And we are still as a country, as a culture, as a program, quite a bit shy of that.
00:16:57
Speaker
Well, and I one of the things that struck me when the rosters were announced and to use an example of an aspirational team, England leaves off Cole Palmer from their roster.
00:17:08
Speaker
A year ago, we were I think the soccer world was sort of coming to terms with, is this the best player in the world? He had just had this amazing Club World Cup. He scoring all these amazing goals. And I don't know how seriously we were. He was. But it was like he he's probably the next great soccer player. He was unstoppable. he Yeah. A good little window there. He did not make the roster. And I asked some people like, is that a like, you know, people that know the Premier League better than I do. And I said, was that surprising? And they're like, you had you had a pretty mid year.
00:17:39
Speaker
And that was enough to get him off the World Cup roster. we are bringing Gio Reyna who has never like, look, I'm not, I'm not trying to get into a Reyna debate, but that's sort of like our version of,
00:17:52
Speaker
a very talented player who has not been in good form. And he was on the rock. I mean, I think that's sort of, and this is a guy who has never sniffed the accomplishments of a Cole Palmer. Right. And who's about ah comparable age and he's, he's on our roster and he's the first player we bring off the bench, I believe in this game, if not the first, the second one at half. Yeah.
00:18:13
Speaker
And I'll use another example. Jeremy Doku, maybe one of the most electric players in the Premier League this year. In the world. In the world, right. In the world. Sure. Absolutely.
00:18:25
Speaker
He comes off the bench. And they, by the time he comes off the bench, the game, I believe it was already three, maybe in three, one when he came up the bench. and And I saw some people talking when they saw the 11s come out.
00:18:37
Speaker
Whoa. Doki's on the bench. Right. Like this good, good news for you guys. Exactly. Careful. Careful. Cause he had, he had, he fried up the U.S. Yeah. Comprehensively in the 5-2 friendly win in March down in Atlanta. And it was a big question coming into into this week's match. Like if you can stopped. Yeah. can How do you guys shut down Duke? Right. You do. You know, and now it's like, well. It's like, we're not to use them.
00:19:01
Speaker
you're You're going to get dogpiled by Doku is going to be the victory cigar who you just bring into your face. Exactly. So it was, i mean, there are levels like, let's be like, I don't want to, I don't want to delude myself into like there. Some of these teams have talent to your point. That is so deep that we can only aspire to. And that's, and that's a fair criticism. And I guess you can argue that maybe we had deluded ourselves into believing that we could go toe to toe with even a Belgium player.
00:19:30
Speaker
But man, I'm sorry, but I also kind of reject that framing because this isn't about losing to Belgium. This is about getting absolutely smashed by Belgium.
00:19:43
Speaker
This is not being in the game from minute one. And I mean, and I don't mean that like ah theoretically, we literally were giving up huge on the first minute. We gave up a massive chance that they let us off the hook on.
00:20:00
Speaker
Should have been three nil at half. It absolutely should have been three nil at half. If you consider that the free kick we scored was a little fluky and that it took a deflection off the wall and they had Matt freeze did make a great save.
00:20:14
Speaker
He, we obviously the two goals we gave up were well-deserved. You could argue it could have been four zero because not even talking about the the goal that they, they missed in the first minute. So we were just on, we were nowhere near this. I believe.
00:20:29
Speaker
Tillman's free kick was the first shot that we took. i yeah, that could be, I'm pretty sure it was the first for sure shot. on shot Certainly the first shot on target. Uh, and the only, I think we only took one other, the only other time we put a ball on frame, I think was when Balagan had that breakaway that would have made it three, two. I think, I mean, the game was sort of like getting out of hand already when he had that chance, if I remember correctly.
00:20:55
Speaker
the Yeah, they didn't show up. And they we have we have priors. You go back to, um i guess, statistically, probably the best ah performance in a major tournament in in the modern era for this program was the 2009 Confederations Cup. where we We beat Spain.
00:21:12
Speaker
right And that was a that was a what was widely considered time to be sort of a limited team. Bob Bradley, again, he wasn't a I don't think he his work was appreciated fully at the time that he set that team up with what the the proverbial slash infamous empty bucket knows a team designed to be tough to play against.
00:21:30
Speaker
that There was a a paucity of truly elite skill players and attacking players, but we he he worked worked in in the best way he could to to make them dangerous. You had a couple of elite players with Dempsey, Donovan.
00:21:45
Speaker
Josie was was quality, a really stout defense. and we And that Spain were the dominant team in the world at the time and were continue to be, right? They had an incredible player.
00:21:57
Speaker
run that maybe is the best four-year run that any national team has ever had, at least in the modern era. So so u s it is in the US character to play up to big moments and and big opponents. And and that's what that's what's shocking. right And again, ah we're not the only ones to be saying this. right the The source of the anger and the the depth of the disappointment is the scale of the opportunity that was missed with the the size of the audience you had and the excitement that people felt.
00:22:25
Speaker
And just the the the complete lack of identity, right? that So many of the things that Pacha spent so much time over the last 22 months ah really, really obsessively focused on, right?
00:22:39
Speaker
the The tenacity, the gara, right? the The fighting spirit, um the hunger, the energy imposing themselves. I mean, that what was so impressive to me about the the three victories up to this point was the control that the U S has.
00:22:54
Speaker
I mean, the, their opponents were forced to sort of live in their own end. Their XG numbers were poor. The U S was, was setting the tempo and determining the character and the press was, was really ferocious. Statistically, I believe going into the round of 16, they were the best counter pressing team in the tournament.
00:23:14
Speaker
And there was just none. There was no, no shadow of that. So, um, you know and' Sorry, just to close the loop on on Belgium here, um ah Doyle uses this framing, so I think this is you know worth noting.
00:23:29
Speaker
If you look at the top 18 club teams globally, U.S. are 18th in minutes played for those clubs. Belgium has nine players with over 1,000 minutes for those teams. France has 34. We have three.
00:23:41
Speaker
If Johnny Cardoso had been healthy, he'd make it four. so And it's it's not just about best players at big European clubs and and read the whole, but read the whole piece because he delves into MLS's role to play.
00:23:54
Speaker
It is a, it is a multi-layered issue. You have to, you have to push on, on all sides and at both ends. And, and so, you know, we've dealt with, I think collectively as a soccer community, we've, um, we just can't help, I guess, or maybe it's just that the the bigger, the casual audience, the the more basic your, your post game,
00:24:13
Speaker
ah the discourse is, right? But we've gone back into this like, well, we need what if our best athletes played soccer? And we need and you you're listen, there's there are there are, inside of that discourse, there are important points to make.
00:24:28
Speaker
The game needs to be more accessible. Pay to play is a problem. I don't think, I think it's unrealistic to think that you're going to remove it or or crush it or fundamentally change it, but you have to sort of work around it and there's there is yeah there is work to be done.
00:24:44
Speaker
But look, like not to get too down that, the reality is that other sports have the same. Sure. AAU basketball is still the dominant way that most kids get it. And i guess maybe the difference in soccer is that there is something to be said about elite soccer players are made at six, seven, eight years
Progress and Challenges in US Soccer
00:25:03
Speaker
old. And you know you oftentimes find elite.
00:25:07
Speaker
football players who don't touch a football until they're in high school. And that's just not really the way it works. Like, and and I don't know if there's something inherent about soccer that makes it different in that way, but I understand that's an, that's an argument.
00:25:19
Speaker
But we've, we've spent decades, you know, again, because the, the, the groundhog day element to this result is that, um, There's huge echoes 2010, 2014, 2022, now 2026. It's infuriating, but the fundamentals have been ah millions, hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent.
00:25:44
Speaker
life like Life's purpose yeah by by thousands of people right have gone into this. People have been working on this stuff. There is growth. It is infuriating, I know, as we as we talked for years about the transformative power of a World Cup on home soil, but we are still making incremental progress.
00:26:03
Speaker
We are making incremental progress. And I don't think it's fair to completely ignore that in incremental progress. And look, there is an element of if we weren't doing all this work, we would be farther behind because the the world is improving along with a moving target. It's a moving target. And so if we have any hope of catching up, this is the work that you this is the baseline work we have to do just to maintain our place in the pecking order.
00:26:28
Speaker
And we've been in the 12 to 20 range of best national teams in the world, probably for 15 years, right? 20 years, something like that. It was an agonizing climb. Right. Right. To to from laughingstock to respectability from respectability to what what would it be the right term contender? Yeah. um To reach the elite and stay there.
00:26:54
Speaker
That's that's a whole other. And we're not the only ones that that want that. Right. No. I mean, look at Netherlands. Netherlands went out in the round of 32. This is maybe the that probably the country that has the best claim to best footballing nation without a World Cup title. hmm.
00:27:12
Speaker
And they went out even earlier than we did and looked no better. Like they, I mean, they, they got to shootout, but they were pitiful. They barely attacked in that game and they got a deserved result. And what I'm not trying to pile on Netherlands, but I am just bringing them up as an example of a team that struggled in this tournament.
00:27:31
Speaker
I do think this is a complete aside. I just thought it was funny because I looked it up. Somehow the United States was the only non-UEFA nation to knock out a UEFA nation without penalties in this tournament, which is does sort of illustrate the power of football. Still, you know, as much as there was so much talk about maybe UEFA has got too many teams in the World Cup.
00:27:53
Speaker
And sure, they they've got six out of the eight quarterfinalists. And and there was this is a great tournament on balance in kindtorical in historical context for CAF. Yeah, absolutely. The African nations really did well up until we got to this point, essentially. Right. and But that just it all drives from the point.
00:28:09
Speaker
As much as this game is globalized, the the power centers remain. Again, your your cultural power center is South America. Your ah economic and and infrastructure power center is Europe.
00:28:25
Speaker
And it is, I find it um revealing and a little bit depressing that this is, this is going to be a European world cup. Now six of eight quarter finalists are from Europe. Yeah. Even a team, like, even if we want to say that, you know, I actually, I want to give Switzerland their flowers because I think,
00:28:44
Speaker
from the minute they dismembered the U S four nil last year, i thought there's, there's something going on here. Right. And, and I know it hasn't always been maybe the most aesthetically fulfilling style they've played, but I, I got to, to make a day trip up to Vancouver yesterday to, to catch that game in person. And um in a, in a dominantly,
00:29:05
Speaker
uh pro colombian crowd at bc place yeah mean that was like a yellow the whole stadium seemed yellow but on kila norte you know and and they um they took over the place and that the the the vibes were great it was a great stadium experience and the swiss just um just resilient dogged uh organized right and that is if we even if we still consider them a median european side you know the Again, their their players are all immersed in the in the kind of competitive situations from cradle to retirement that the US is still trying to we're trying to build it here.
00:29:42
Speaker
And we're trying to send our players across the pond to to get into it um as quickly and as immersively as possible. And like this is just and it's it's global capitalism too, right? like the money is in Europe.
00:29:56
Speaker
The history and the the the the the desirability is there. Even places like Colombia and Argentina, where the game is like just so deep in the blood of of the majority of the population of large countries, right and the player pools are their plays are incredible, even they...
00:30:18
Speaker
grudgingly must acknowledge that their players need to go to Europe and they that that they' it's an export business. right and that's For me, that's like kind of depressing. I think that there is a we do need to kind of think about what our... ah maintain our identity here North America, and i'm I'm speaking of all three of the major big North American countries here, like we have our own culture in in soccer and we have our own tools and attributes that we can bring.
00:30:48
Speaker
But, um but man, the power of Europe is, it is, is stronger than ever. Well, this maybe is a good dovetail into that. And I do wonder if there's ever a way to truly compete with Europe, as long as that is the,
00:31:06
Speaker
the reality that as long as the economic strength of football is in Europe, it's you're kind of playing deep, guys right? you're You're just trying to get your players there and you're trying to compete on their terms, essentially.
00:31:22
Speaker
And I think we all recognize that the United States is a powerful, economically strong nation. And look, MLS is not going to become the equivalent to a top five European league anytime soon.
00:31:37
Speaker
But I do wonder, and this was another thing that I've i've heard Doyle speak to, is that part of the struggle of the American national team is that and MLS is just not where it needs to be.
00:31:49
Speaker
Like MLS needs to be a globally competitive league in order to produce globally great players. And how do we, like, how do we get there? How do we get MLS? Cause I do think the champions league thing is a big part of it. Like champions league is always going to be an attraction to the best footballers in the world because it's the best competition in the world.
00:32:09
Speaker
And it doesn't matter if you're playing in Switzerland or you're playing in, ah in England or you're playing in France or you're playing in Belgium, if you have access to champions league, that's a, that's always going to be attraction.
00:32:26
Speaker
and MLS is now probably most likely never going to have that. Right. So how, do but how do we, how do we close that gap? I mean, what, what can we reasonably do? What responsibility, I guess, does MLS have to help change that paradigm?
00:32:41
Speaker
This is ah another episode unto itself, possibly. But the it's it's just a small question. It's fascinating. We're, we're um you know, ah a large chunk of my ah work is is centered ah um in and around MLS.
MLS Development and Competitive Growth
00:32:56
Speaker
And, you know, I have to pivot this week to, you know, to to get my focus back on the league because the week before the World Cup final, and MLS returns for this, you know, to start the second half of the season. Yeah.
00:33:08
Speaker
Many of our journalistic colleagues have made the point that this was originally at one point supposed to be, at least in the vision of, of many important people and in, in the league, the, this would have, and could have been the moment when the the calendar was going to switch and that they would, you would be the ideal way to seize the, the momentum and carry on the vibes from this. Not just a new calendar, but a whole new rule structure, right? That, that was, this would all go hand in hand, right? A new roster paradigm, a new competitive structure, all things that,
00:33:40
Speaker
they say are in the works. The calendar has been switched, but we don't actually know the new competitive structure. here yeah we don't We certainly don't know what the new roster rules are going to look like. which is and it's It's a year out now. yeah so so the The clock is always ticking in that regard.
00:33:58
Speaker
The reality, again, it's it's easy to to to knock the league leaders for that, but the reality is that it's a consensus-based organization now at this point, now that you have 30 seats at the at the the board table, right and you have to get a critical mass of of ownership groups to sign on to any major change, and they They had to really labor to to build the consensus to make this switch. The calendar switch has happened, but many are arguing that it's a year late.
00:34:28
Speaker
So that's but that's a great example of you can live in ah you want to live in the the hypothetical world, but you also have to you know your feet are always going to be touching earth.
00:34:40
Speaker
When you see what, you know, and I think part of the reason that that that that a lot of the conservative voices at the the executive level in MLS are so doggedly committed to the incremental, ah long range mindset the league's had since the early days is that they've seen this this stuff over and over, right? They see the discourse every four years when the men ah crash out of the World Cup.
00:35:06
Speaker
They've seen... And every single time MLS catches catching strays. Sure, sure, sure. And then you you see the Chinese Super League come along and this league is rocketing past MLS and will be one of the top leagues in the world.
00:35:18
Speaker
And you're just letting it happen. And then the Saudi league comes along and you guys are getting left in the wake, right? They're more ambitious. They're spending more. They're they're they're going places and you're not and you can't pull the trigger. And like the both sides are right, right? There's elements of truth and in in all of this because the The people that write the checks have had to, it took a quarter century to get to a point where this is ah the the in the long range investment had started to show some ah ROI and it does need to work. Now now this is, and again, um MLS is has to live in the North American sports world in North American economy where
00:35:57
Speaker
you yeah You don't have loss leaders, right? Like there's nobody coming in here to to launch a ah sport washing geopolitics project. And i don't know if we should be welcoming either, right?
00:36:10
Speaker
Sure, maybe not. I mean, there's there's all kinds of ah of any problematic aspects. And even the one we have doesn't seem interested in sports washing that much. But not sorry, new York City FC. I just had to throw that in there. um I'm sure that's hey, you know, the the new the Etihad Park will be the crown jewel of the the calendar switch when it opens. Yeah. Next July. So, yeah. no But the um but to get more directly to your question, like I think and MLS would probably say someone like Don Gard would probably say we're already doing the stuff that we need to be doing.
00:36:44
Speaker
And then the question becomes, should it should it be happening faster or more aggressively? right like We've gone from zero to 60 in the sense of having um ah youth academies at every club.
00:36:55
Speaker
That's an MLS mandate. There's plenty of owners, plenty of ownership groups who are dubious to outright oppose to the idea of investing a anything in in youth development or and having an academy system. they don't They don't think that's a worthwhile use of their money, but they have been...
00:37:11
Speaker
they they've They've had to sign on because the consensus was reached in you know almost 20 years ago that this was where things needed to go. Well, and so stop and think about that, right? The homegrown started getting signed in 2009, 2010, right? The idea of of bringing up players through your system and then putting them in the first team. And they really weren't matured until 2018, 2019, probably.
00:37:33
Speaker
Right. So, and and there's for sure there's work to be done. There's the, there's a huge spectrum of effectiveness, culture, local buy-in that I've seen in in my time covering youth soccer. Like there's some clubs that I've figured out.
00:37:46
Speaker
There's some clubs that are miles behind. There's clubs that get to the top and then fall off. Right. That, that aren't, find it difficult to sustain. So, but I think when you look at, for example, like,
00:37:59
Speaker
ah It's easy in MLS circles to to chuckle at the Philadelphia Union and talk about how little money they spend and their owner is not a billionaire and and so forth. And even even Philly fans are you know chafe at not having had big money investments. right they don't sign They don't sign seven, eight figure DPs and that sort of thing. But I don't think anybody else sent more players to this U.S. men's national team roster.
00:38:23
Speaker
Yeah. and and And what if 29 other teams, or if we take it strictly from the US context, but it applies with the three Canadian teams and the CanMNT, what if everyone was doing even even in the vicinity of what Philly are doing?
00:38:37
Speaker
Right. And I mean, I think that that's a very valid argument. And I think it's also valid to say Philly signs two high-priced DPs, maybe they win a title, but they don't really make MLSs.
00:38:50
Speaker
better necessarily. mean, I guess you can argue, like if every team was maxing out their DP spend, I don't know that by itself probably doesn't make, and was but you need, strike my point is that you need to fill the, there needs to be more, there has to be more than that. It can't just be like the designated player rule.
00:39:08
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:41:05
Speaker
Well, here's a fun ah fun um angle in that sense. Chicago Fire... have are kind of an example of, I think they look at Seattle and and a number of the other sort of model clubs in terms of of sustainability and and good decision-making.
00:41:21
Speaker
And they're they're taking some cues, right? So they've they took what was- Signed Robert Lewandowski, which is the classic Sounders move. Well, it would once have been, it wasn't that long ago. The Sounders were the ones that the straw that stirred the drink when it came to like, Hey, let's get, let's get Clint Dempsey back here. Let's, let's sign, uh, you know, like, like Nico Ladero, right? That, that was, do do the Sounders get over the top and become Sounders of today without Nico Ladero? Pretty substantial investment.
00:41:50
Speaker
had to talk a guy away from, i believe he was at Boca. Boca Juniors. Yeah. Right. So leave, leave the, the, the jewel of South American club soccer and and come to Seattle. But what i was so like, but they, they are signing Lewandowski. They, they've had, they had a massive whiff on, um, um, uh, oh gosh, uh, the, the Cuba power, uh, their Swiss star, uh, DP who granted not Jaca. I knew I was going to blow it. I knew i was going to blow it. Well, I look like a real a real clown not known. So anyway, he was. That's how bad he was. That's how even bad he was. Yeah. ah No, but they've had, you know, they've they've lit um essentially eight figure sums on fire with a signing that didn't shake out.
00:42:29
Speaker
But they also took a really badly underperforming academy and one of the best talent pools in the nation and brought it back up to snuff. And now they've got a Chicago Fire. a homegrown product is starting for Mexico's national team at the World Cup. Yeah. So he moves to Chief ah Brian Gutierrez. He's got real minutes for them. He was like one of the guys they turned to to try and pull that England loss out of the fire.
00:42:53
Speaker
That says something. Yeah, That would have been unheard of, right? And so like they there's an example of, I think, the ideal would be that you have 30 MLS clubs that are walking and chewing gum at the same time. That are taking the entire developmental pipeline seriously.
00:43:08
Speaker
and And are still showing ambition with like, hey, let's yes let's take a, let's do it Because is the the big knock that Philly's fans would have with their ownership is, okay, you built this awesome foundation.
00:43:19
Speaker
the The pipeline is there. The culture is there. Everybody knows the academy is central to the identity of the club. What if you just sprinkled a little bit of international... star power or quality on top of that, like just one or two contracts, right? I mean, the same way that Ladero was the tipping point or gets you pat is the one that gets you over the hump.
00:43:39
Speaker
What if, you know, what if you do that? I mean, we're seeing maybe in real time that that's what's happening with Vancouver Whitecaps is that they built a really impressive collective with plenty of, of local kids and Canadian kids and, and smart signings like that. And then,
00:43:56
Speaker
you convince Thomas Muller to come and now it is a ferocious ah quantity, or you know, quality that you have. And so like, i I would love to see that. I would love to see that everybody's sort of um hunting in and in in the same level there. I don't know that we're going to get there right away, but what if that's this what if that's sort of like a reasonable goal to to to put out in a collective level?
00:44:22
Speaker
I mean, I think that's that's a great point. ah So the last thing, and we'll kind of, I think, end here, but the big question now becomes, all right, so we can look 10, 5, 4, 8, 12 years down the future, whatever. we can We can talk about what we need to do, but none of these, we're not talking about short-term pictures.
00:44:42
Speaker
We're not talking about how we pick up the pieces from this and what are we doing tomorrow? What are we doing you know i i I know you you brought to my attention that Tab Ramos suggested that we sort of need a clout ah house cleaning at the Federation level, which means obviously we don't bring back Mauricio Pochettino.
00:45:01
Speaker
But then also, you know we don't have a technical director right now. Matt Crocker left for Saudi Arabia, as you may or may not know. And that maybe we need to get rid of Cindy Parlo-Cohn, that maybe she needs to fall on her sword.
00:45:15
Speaker
And I have some I have some takes on this. But where do you fall on what we should be doing in the immediate that we can do that? We can start putting this whole thing back together because we do have another World Cup qualifying cycle that we got to get ready for.
00:45:28
Speaker
And there's no reason like the only mistake would be to take this failure and be like, well, we're never going to be an elite soccer nation. So why are we even trying? s Yes. Yes. The nihilism of the of this World Cup casual. Right. Yeah, it's a great question.
00:45:44
Speaker
it's ah It's natural for fans. I know there's a segment of fan of the fan base that that are saying, you know burn it down. yeah right Maybe a more um a more measured version of that is, oh okay, so there was, and again, Tab tab um and Tom Bogert were talking about this on their podcast Inside American Soccer this week.
00:46:04
Speaker
And Tab, I think sensibly, as he's he's someone who's outside the the this institution at the moment, but he spent a lot of time in and around US soccer as a player, then as ah as a coach and an influential figure in the youths the youth system for the youth national teams.
00:46:18
Speaker
His point was, what what does accountability look like? Any well-run organization, you should have reflection. as As he dryly pointed out, there's been so much talk with between JT Batson and Cindy Parlo-Cohn, who are the CEO and the president of the U.S. Soccer Federation, respectively, about the project. right and like the they've They've achieved some very impressive things. right like the The National Training Center was a concept that was sort of a pipe dream for a while or ah ah a ah very much a ah someday kind of project. And they brought it to fruition.
00:46:52
Speaker
This is where the U.S. s trained in the days before they, and the the final camp before they they moved to California for the World Cup base camp. And it really has just very recently come online. Like it's not, yeah it is not was not really a factor yeah in this cycle. The paint didn't dry completely until until May or thereabouts.
00:47:12
Speaker
And but that's incredibly not was a that's a it's ah it's a a 250 million dollar facility that has room to grow even further. That that will be if you want to talk about lasting legacies. Right. That's I'm very impressed with them to do that now. And there'll be a culture. There's ah a culture shift is already underway within the organization.
00:47:29
Speaker
And it remains to be seen whether that will be all good or whether that will be a little bit more of a mixed bag, because a lot of the people that help get the that organization to this point, um are not going to be moving from Chicago to Atlanta or don't want to. And and and so that there is a shift there.
00:47:44
Speaker
But I do think it's fair to ask. but You've spent more money than than has ever been spent on the national team, the men's national team's head coach, ah to the point that Wall Street billionaires had to be recruited to help underwrite the cost.
00:47:59
Speaker
And he, i think I see, I saw a lot of good that Poch did. he again, he reminded us of a lot of important things about our ourselves, our national character. He got this team to respectability. He got the country excited, but we still crash out at the same juncture as, as, you know, the last several cycles. Yeah. the Literally the last three and the only, only ones that we advanced any farther. And anyway, but, but so we've been told that the Federation has already offered him another, uh, an extension.
00:48:31
Speaker
i would assume it would be four years or, or at least, you know, some portion of that. There's probably buyouts. He's, he's a very much wanted figure. He's always connected to the big European club jobs. This is guy who is at Chelsea and Paris center germain, uh, in his recent jobs for this talk.
00:48:47
Speaker
He, uh, yes. And he, um, he has a steep buyout clause, you know, we'll see what that looks like, but, On the one hand, before Monday's blowout, it made a lot of sense to a lot of fans to to bring this guy back because he he is the most decorated manager that the program has ever had.
00:49:08
Speaker
Now it looks differently. i was just reading our colleague Doug McIntyre over on Fox called it, I think he called it unthinkable to to bring back Podge after this. He came to very hard on sort of the...
00:49:22
Speaker
you can't bring this guy back. Yeah. And he made the great point. Like our potches brought the Argentine sensibility, right? He's, he's a product of that, that culture that absolutely like 24 seven died in the wall, obsessive football culture.
00:49:35
Speaker
And Doug rightly points out if, if he had overseen a result like that with the Argentine national team, he would have been fired or he got the resigned in shame before he left the the stadium. Right. And,
00:49:47
Speaker
That's true. so Now, now ah and the and analytical analytical among us might say that major tournaments are very small sample size events with high degrees of randomness variance. And that, that that makes it difficult to, to and tricky to make longer decisions on, but this game is about, uh, about spirit and emotion too. And so I think it's so interesting because the conversation has shifted so quickly off the back of that result. And, I have a feeling though, that he will not come back just because bob Potch wants to get back in the club environment and that he's, yeah he's lived in the champions league world now for for long enough. And, uh,
00:50:23
Speaker
When you, when you're, when clubs like Real Madrid, um, ah have your, you know, get, get attached to your name so regularly, like, I think that's, going to happen. And I think that's probably for the best, but ah I keep having these time as a flat circle moments because not just the the round of 16 habit that the USMNT has picked up, but in many of those cases, the coach in charge has been brought back.
00:50:47
Speaker
Yeah. And the second cycle And it ah did not work. Right. But it's because in each case, there are these internal political dynamics in and around the Federation that led the people in charge to decide that whether it was for the federal the the organization or their own status within the organization, that they needed to not be the one that lost the coach or they didn't have anything better. Right. Or they're waiting on Juergen Klinsmann to get around to saying yes. And there's each one has its own context. But.
00:51:14
Speaker
We had this incredible habit across multiple leadership regimes of of bringing coaches back for a second World Cup cycle and it not going well and yet still doing it again and again. so i think And only i just say only one says that coach returned for the second cycle and even made it to the next World Cup.
00:51:31
Speaker
And of course, that World Cup ended with a group being group. Right. This is Bruce Arena. at a great o two our best ever run. I made logical sense at the time to bring him back for a second cycle.
00:51:42
Speaker
They were, at I think his second cycle was where we reached our best status ever in the FIFA world rankings. And it didn't make a difference, right? We didn't get out of the group at Germany 2006.
00:51:55
Speaker
So, you know, I have a feeling that maybe that this result ends up, Monday's blowout ends up becoming, um you know, the... the, the, the broom that nudges everyone towards the, the place that they need to be.
00:52:11
Speaker
And we can say thanks for your service. And, uh, it was, it was fun, potch. And, uh, you know, we'll see you around. And then the question is who, right. And, and where does it go from here? Do you go get another high powered, uh,
00:52:24
Speaker
name face from overseas. Do you can't home again and and and look look within? Hearing a lot of buzz about BJ Callahan, former Greg Berhalter assistant who's built a very impressive Nashville SC.
00:52:38
Speaker
They are the Supporter Shield leaders as of the World Cup break in MLS. Which we had to look up today. Yeah, well, I've been in World Cup mode and Moto Mundial, and i had someone asked me about who's leading MLS right now the other day, and I could confess, i'm I'm the national writer at MLSsoccer.com.
00:52:57
Speaker
I should have that
Pochettino's Future and American Soccer Potential
00:52:58
Speaker
tattooed onto the back of my brain, but I had to look it up. But we are very quickly going to get back into that that world. i have a feeling, I certainly hope that there's some middle ground that can be found there.
00:53:09
Speaker
The problem is just that fundamentally, you know, I think Potch was, ah was lured, not just by a big contract, but by the charm of sort of doing this, having this unique job where he kind of, we need you to, you've got a little less than two years. We need you to pull this thing out of the fire and get us ready for a home World Cup. For a home World Cup. Really being, yeah really being like the main thing that, like, I don't know that he's that interested in trudging through four years, three years of qualifying to go to Spain and be the 16th best team that no one's talking about.
00:53:43
Speaker
and And listen, ah ah the I think it was um was a Tunisia that um that fired their coach after the first match of the World Cup after a 5-1 drubbing.
00:53:53
Speaker
ah They've had something like 18 managers in the last eight years. So maybe maybe we maybe that's an element of the world. Yeah. standard that we internalize a little bit more in terms of just have just not have like maybe it doesn't have to be a project maybe you maybe you sign someone to a two-year contract and see how many things are going look julian nagelsman was the coach of germany he was supposed to be the footballing genius not so long ago and he went out in the round of 32 and he's already out as head coach i mean certainly potch won't be the be only
00:54:26
Speaker
co if he doesn't come back. it's I don't think that's necessarily any kind of negative mark. I will say, though, from the cleaning house perspective, I i actually am maybe maybe I'm being too kind here. But look, one of the problems that has plagued U S soccer over the years is this political part of it where we take, where we almost take too long to make the obvious move.
00:54:49
Speaker
And, you know, Berhalter was hired in a you know, I think he was, i honestly, I don't mind. I think he was a good coach. ah And the, the process was maybe flawed, but honestly it took, it took too long.
00:55:03
Speaker
It took a year to hire him if I remember correctly. Right. To remind everyone. So, so, um, Kuva happens in October of 2017. Yeah.
00:55:12
Speaker
ah Dave Sarakin was the the interim for a while, and then it wasn't explained this way at the time, but it turned out that the the deceit deciders at the Federation had decided had picked Greg Berhalter.
00:55:28
Speaker
But apparently we had to wait until his du called club season with Columbus Crew was done. So he wasn't hired until after the 2018 MLS season. And granted, the youth movement began and Sarekin did a great job of starting that literally right out of the gates in the first window after Kuva.
00:55:46
Speaker
But there was a sense of lost time. And then we we did something so very comparable again After 2022, in the wake of the whole renegade controversy and that incredible fiasco that that was behind the scenes in 2022, then we took, you know, so we had, that there was treading water for months, then there was bringing Berhalter back, you know, very questionable, right? says Decisions like Matt Crocker has left for a big money opportunity with the Saudis, but that was his first big decision and I'm empathetic to him for having to
00:56:21
Speaker
to uh deal with that situation and the the mnt job is his first major call and i i think we can say he didn't get the call right right because uh year later it fizzles out definitely didn't get the call right i don't think there's a he i think like look i don't want to beat the guy up too bad he's not here anymore but to me he was he had the the best thing you can say about him in that situation is that he was the guy who had to make the announcement Either he had a deeply flawed system in which he found the coach and by his own admittance, the coach wrote the test and then aced the test.
00:56:57
Speaker
And that was, that was what we were sold as. This is why it's the right hire. Or the decision had been made before he got there and he just had to be the one to announce it. And that's the way he got either way. I don't know that Matt Crocker Like the whole Matt Crocker thing, i I feel like was a pretty big fail. I don't know that he left any sort of impression on it. I mean, i don't know Can you even give him credit for Emma Hayes? I guess maybe you can give him credit for Emma Hayes.
00:57:22
Speaker
But i that whole and I think but it's I bring it up because I do think it's indicative of soccer sort of getting caught up in, you know, not so different than this wonderful city with him in Seattle, where you have the Seattle process where you talk about Things just take forever to get done. They are constantly looking for consensus and making sure all the stakeholders are happy about it.
00:57:44
Speaker
And it ends up all it ends up doing is just adding time. And at the end of it, no one is really happy with what you decide because the consensus never really got built. They just sort of got to a point where people were tired of fighting it.
00:57:56
Speaker
And I feel like U.S. soccer sometimes runs the same way. And but at the same time, I got to give credit to see to see. Batson and to Cone for getting this facility built.
00:58:09
Speaker
And i don't think it makes any sense to me to fire them. They seem perfectly competent at the jobs they're doing. And really, it's their job to find the technical director, which hopefully they are deep into the process of doing.
00:58:23
Speaker
And then that technical director will hopefully already have a list of coaches that he wants to go after. And we can get this thing started going in the right direction. started going in the right direction Because it feels like we've had a lot of disconnectedness throughout this where we have different factions within the Federation who are fighting this and that.
00:58:41
Speaker
You know, we had the whole, you know, is the Federation being run by MLS thing that was going on, which I never really bought into. It's definitely not now. Definitely is not now. It's debatable, but... And so my hope is that we just sort of move quickly at this point. Like I i think moving quickly might be preferable to trying to figure out exactly the perfect hire.
00:59:02
Speaker
And and i it's important to note, Part of why you have this whole process built thing that kind of lumbers at times and at important times, we've just discussed, is before when the organization is much much smaller and less built out, Sunil Gulati, who was a a a dedicated server in the game, who had literally worked up from like the guy who's schlepping balls, like helping out the national team you know um at training and taping ankles and stuff, to becoming the president and becoming one of the most influential people in in the world of FIFA.
00:59:36
Speaker
the The process for key periods a decade or or so ago was was what Sunil decides. right And we signed Juergen Klinsmann to a contract extension before the 2014 World Cup had happened because there was fear that he was going to bolt for a big European job and that would make that would hurt the team and that would make everyone look bad. So we he get he finesses his way to a new contract and it was like, well, wait, who who decided this? And shouldn't we build...
01:00:07
Speaker
build more of a ah a sensible long-term structure around things well we did that and i guess you got to be careful what you wish for because it is again it's been very ah difficult to turn that tanker quickly so i certainly agree that on the same token they apparently if we' we're to believe all the reporting that's out there they've already offered pochettino a job and that at this maybe they've retracted that offer we don't i don't No, but and and and I should say to clarify, like in his postgame press conference, after the four one mauling by Belgium, Pochettino didn't, did said nothing about having been offered a a new contract. He simply said, if the Federation wants to talk, we'll talk. It's too soon.
01:00:45
Speaker
We need to rest and reflect and so forth. So he certainly doesn't sound like someone who's been put, had, had, had a ah ah contract put in front of him to sign. Although he also sounds like someone who that's also what you might say if you weren't really that interested in signing a call Yeah, I think there's a very good chance that that was that press conference was his final remarks as USMNT coach. He is currently out of contract, and they will have to, I assume, up the already record-breaking contract that he was previously on to to get him to come back. I don't know that he wants to come back. I don't know why, frankly, u s soccer would want him to come back. It feels like a very easy situation.
01:01:23
Speaker
amicable parting of ways. This is where the World Cup results are. it's just it's such a it's It's such a sliding doors moment because if you valiantly lose that match three two and he's the he's the hero who reintroduced us to ourselves and led us to our you know are inspiring ah World Cup run on home soil and we goes out with honor,
01:01:51
Speaker
then people in, I will not say CPC and Batson, but certainly people in their position are very prone to so to thinking on some level. I don't want to be the executive that let this guy walk. Sure. that That's a bad look for me. And if if it reflects if it affects the program negatively, then that means I haven't done my job.
01:02:12
Speaker
And it's no it's no mystery, i don't think, why it suddenly leaked out that he had already been offered contract up. Right. Everyone was maybe it was even before that. It may have been after the group stage, but it was people riding high. They didn't want it to do, they didn't want to look like the U S soccer fumbled the bag.
01:02:29
Speaker
I get it. ah And we are so addicted to it. And it's a, it's a a North American sporting mentality, right? If you just get the right leader, if you just get the right coach, right. And it's part of, I think it's, it's part of the disconnect between soccer being such a, uh, a, a player-dominated, player-centered sport, and ah and um a North American sports so often being more regimented in places where coaches have a bigger influence.
01:02:53
Speaker
It's this idea, and it's so funny, like some of the New York Post reporting I thought was was notable in this way because they wrote ah did a good piece in the last week or two about the behind the scenes of the Wall Street, you know the maneuvering the tycoons who like soccer and have and have have the financial means to to chip in on a contract like Pochettino's.
01:03:11
Speaker
And it it felt felt very much like, ah okay, this was like the the American ah corporate headhunter mentality. Like we got this good team. It hasn't come together. If we just get the inspirational leader ah who can who can pick you know put the right LinkedIn principles to work, then we're going to be greater than the sum of our parts. But it is, of course, a much more nuanced thing. It is. situation and is and it's worth I think it's worth noting that maybe even that process was a little a little flawed in that it was born completely out of some guys with a lot of money getting annoyed and throwing their remotes at the TV because we crashed out of Copa America.
01:03:49
Speaker
And that that basically led to them making phone calls of saying, like, how do I fix this as someone who has no real knowledge? or Or receiving calls, right? And i think this may be the new reality. I mean, from what I understand, batson's one of Batson's strengths, maybe even a superpower, is he's he's he knows soccer. He's been involved in the grassroots. He's he's been a referee. He was a referee assigner. Yeah, he's he's a legit. He's he know soccer guy. He knows ball.
01:04:16
Speaker
And he also is extremely ah capable and and fluent in the the startup world, the corporate world. and can move in these these kind of circles that billionaires and millionaires move in.
01:04:31
Speaker
So he's able to speak these different languages and he's in he knows what to say when you can get a ah ah Wall Street hedge fund guy on the line and say, hey, if you want to help the program move forward, here's what it's called here's what we've got.
01:04:46
Speaker
We've got this world-class coach ah who's interested and here's the number that we need. And if you can give us this segment of it, we think we're in business. right I suspect that's not going anywhere. I suspect that may be part of part of the reality of of American soccer going forward.
01:05:02
Speaker
Look, and I think that there are some positives to come out of the Pochettino era. I think one of them is, look, Pochettino, I think, was speaking truth to us. Why shouldn't we as America be aspiring to more than the quarterfinals?
01:05:17
Speaker
you know Why shouldn't we be taking pride our... are our national, like, why should we not have at least about our soccer team have this nationalistic pride about it?
01:05:28
Speaker
Why does it why do we have to have why does politics have to be involved in our national team? Oh, like compared to Juergen Klinsmann's messaging on the eve of the 2014 World Cup, when he straight up said he was asked if we could win the World Cup. And he said, no he he gave the answer that we would give each other at the sports bar. Right. A couple of beers in like, no, what are you talking about? Right. Dumb question. And he answered. He answered as the soccer guy, not the head of the USMNT, who's supposed to be inspiring nation behind this one. Right. And I will say in a to give Potch a few flowers in terms of on field stuff.
01:06:04
Speaker
And was really exciting to me as a longtime u soccer observer and and person who's played the game my whole life, in in this tournament, I started to detect what I thought was a truly, like a fully baked or close to it version of a truly like an American style. Yeah. Something we can build yeah forward with, which is – ah It's like some dogs on the field with athleticism, with commitment, with ah with physicality and speed, but married to elite technical abilities, advanced technical, tactical and technical concepts, all being sort of merged in with with this ah high tempo, high intensity style. The idea that we can impose ourselves with the press and the counter press.
01:06:51
Speaker
We can still play with it. when you know When we win the ball back, we know what to do with it. with depth, like the the the way in which we, again, impose ourselves on those ah the the three teams that we beat.
01:07:04
Speaker
I thought, man, this is this is the vision. Like this is a vision that people have mulled over and tossed around and tried to to hone for decades. And it's it's coming through. So maybe that's the starting point for who's the next coach.
01:07:19
Speaker
It's someone who can you can take that pick up the baton from Potch and now add the the next facets and take it to the next stage. Totally agree. I think that there were, i don i hope that we don't,
01:07:31
Speaker
completely lose the positives from this. You know, we started this by saying whether this was a step back or a step forward. And I do think it was a step forward. It was just a much more incremental step forward than we wanted it to be.
01:07:45
Speaker
And it was, it still fell short of expectations. It still was a disappointment, but it wasn't all bad. The group stage was fantastic.
01:07:56
Speaker
Being able to beat a, real saw a Real team in a knockout game is a genuine accomplishment. And we shouldn't pretend as if everything that Pochettino did was bad. It just wasn't as good as we wanted it to be.
01:08:11
Speaker
And I think that's an okay place to be. We don't have to be overly nihilistic about this. We're not going to, know, we, we wasted a great opportunity. That's a, that's a true thing. $6 million, dollars man. That was a $6 million dollar game right there. our I guess 12 or whatever prorate the contract. Yeah. I mean, that was why would look the reason we hired Pachetano was exactly for that moment. And we failed in that moment.
01:08:37
Speaker
And, you know, he didn't seem inclined to take a whole lot of responsibility for it. ah The players, we're clearly disappointed, but I also think that there was some lack of accountability from some of our best players in terms of what they, their shortcomings in this game were.
01:08:55
Speaker
And these are all things that we can move forward on. And I hope we can. And i just hope we also don't get, I hope we actually learn like the key is to learn something from this and it's to not just kind of run against the wall, keep running against the wall.
01:09:11
Speaker
i'll I'll cite another soccer homie, David Goss, who was saying on his Soccer Wise show the other day, it's not a golden generation. It's a pipeline. So yeah let's internalize that mindset. So like Christian Pulisic, I'm sorry.
01:09:28
Speaker
I don't know what the – I no longer have any idea what that guy's ceiling is. He may be right at his ceiling at this point. He hasn't delivered in the clutch anymore. as consistently as his talent led us to believe.
01:09:40
Speaker
ah he is He is not the only one. He is just the headliner of that generation of players. I want to see what that generation looks like with somebody ah breathing down their necks now. And i think I think we can do that. I think you can look around, even if we just start with MLS, let alone the the foreign legion of kids who who left to to go to Europe early on.
01:10:02
Speaker
Even if we just start with here, here with the hometown team, man, like the the Sounders youth movement has turned out some real ballers, right? It's now suddenly the core of this squad of this consistent MLS contender.
01:10:15
Speaker
So like, what, ah like, let's let's push, like let's push those guys through. Let's see some, let's see some kids. I think it'll be ah the next few windows are going to be fun. Whoever's in charge, even if it's a placeholder coach,
01:10:28
Speaker
um Let's let's like get the get the kids um nipping at the heels of this squad that, that again, that was that got at least content enough or complacent enough to draw Pach's ire and make it make that a big part of his message.
01:10:43
Speaker
like let's Let's make it a just a dogfight for every call up and every every minute, even friendly. a friendly And know I'll just add on to that golden generation thing is that I've always been uncomfortable with the doic golden generation tag. It is problematic.
01:10:58
Speaker
In part because it can't be. It can't be our golden generation. If that's our golden generation, we are. Is it? That's bad. That's really, really bad. And even if they had done well in this tournament, I don't think we can allow ourselves to believe that that's the best we can do.
01:11:17
Speaker
Like we as a soccer nation have to aspire to better. We have to aspire better. best players in champions league teams. We have to aspire to lead leaders who want the ball in the biggest moments.
01:11:30
Speaker
We have to aspire to having our best players refuse to go out of matches that are must win matches because their ankle is a little sore. Like we have to, with that's like the only way that, that us soccer is going to get to where it wants to get is if this is just another team and we're The golden generation is something far off in the future where we have we're where we're we're winning. We're actually winning things. And so hopefully this isn't if this is a golden generation, that's the failure, I think, of the of the whole project.
01:12:05
Speaker
No gods, no masters, no golden generations. There you go. All right. I love to end on that, Charlie. It's been really, honestly, i just want to say a huge, huge honor and pleasure to be doing as much work with you over the last six weeks or so as we've been able to do I think you have raised the level of...
01:12:25
Speaker
both journalism and discourse on sounder at heart. ah As you may see, we have some magazines here that you've contributed to, but you've also contributed to some ah fantastic articles on sounder at heart.com about the, ah the covering all sorts of angles, angles that had nothing to do with the national team.
01:12:46
Speaker
And, it was It's just been really good. I hope people appreciate it. And I look forward to working with you more in the future. And thank you for doing the show. I'm so honored these words are mean so much to me. and um and And listeners and watchers should know that I have been holed up in this man's basement for for a good chunk of the last month, the Seattle portion of this of my World Cup adventure. i was talking to someone about this, yeah and I was like, yeah, I guess he's been at our house for a week straight now.
01:13:17
Speaker
the children The children don't shrink at the side of me. No, they were like worried. They were like, did he leave without saying goodbye? ah but i'm out of their hair tonight. yeah finally Finally coming home. It's been outside of two two and a half days. It's been ah a little over a month on the road. and that's And I've traveled. I've been on the road less than a lot of the press back. But but what a great what a great thing. And it's even in a loss, right there's something poetic about... um The national team is 7-1-0 now. All-time in competitive matches in Seattle. It sounded a lot better when it was unbeatable. Perfect. I'll bet we'll all remember the 7 and the 1 when we look back in a few years. Yeah. We're going to have to see if we can make that Cathedral of Cascadia thing stick.
01:14:02
Speaker
I hope so because listen, man, I mean, it's, ah and and again, I'm not, I'm really not just pandering to the yacht crowd here. Like the, the, the vibes, the soccer community here is fantastic. Soccer matters.
01:14:14
Speaker
The, the, all the matches and everything around it, the world cup has been such an event here and it's, it's also a Cascadia thing, right? I mean, the, really the game lives here in just such a special way going up to Vancouver yesterday and feeling ah the Canadian version of it is so dope. Doing a whole nother podcast about your Canada boat. Probably not right now. Indeed. So y'all keep doing this.
01:14:35
Speaker
This is one of the cradles of of North American soccer. And i certainly think it won't be that long until the national team comes. So however long those Euro guys have to fly extra, like, like they got to get back here. yeah quick It can't be another decade before they, before they, mean, we can keep the grass too.
01:14:51
Speaker
Let's come on. Keep the grass. Adrian, I know you're watching this. Let's go keep the grass. Come on. All right, let's get out here. I'm Jeremiah Shan signing off for Charlie Boehm. This is No Study At Dis, part of the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network, and we will catch you next time.
01:15:37
Speaker
Let's go at Sounders.