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Fueling for Performance vs. Body Composition
31 Plays1 hour ago
Do you want to perform well, or do you want to be lean? The internet loves forcing that binary. We do not. In this episode, we use the case of an athlete who is afraid to fuel to explore the large overlap between performance nutrition and body composition nutrition. We talk energy balance, carbohydrates, protein, recovery, low energy availability, and why under-fueling can make both performance and fat loss harder. Fueling is not reckless eating, and dieting is not supposed to mean feeling terrible all the time.
This episode is sponsored by MacroFactor, a premium nutrition app that combines fast food logging with adaptive nutrition coaching.
MacroFactor uses logged nutrition intake and body weight data to estimate energy expenditure over time, then adjusts calorie and macro targets through weekly check-ins based on your goals and progress. It also includes detailed macro and micronutrient tracking, weight trend data, and an adherence-neutral approach that does not punish you for going over or under your targets.
Use code LABRAT for a 14-day free trial.
MacroFactor link: https://app.macrofactor.com/mflabrat
Transcript
Introduction and Episode Theme
00:00:01
Emily Dow
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to LabRat Radio. If this is our first encounter, i don't know how you found us, but my name is Dr.
00:00:11
Nathan Jenkins
ah
00:00:12
Emily Dow
Emily Dow. I have a PhD in exercise and nutritional sciences, and I'm a registered dietitian. And I'm here with my co-host who can introduce himself.
00:00:22
Nathan Jenkins
ah This probably is our first encounter, or maybe our second if this is if you've been with us since the first episode, because here we are at episode two. My name is Dr. Nathan Jenkins, and I'm a a professor of medical education, specifically in physiology. exercise physiologists by training.
00:00:40
Nathan Jenkins
And um yeah, I'm not sure how I found myself here, but here we are. ah Myself and Dr. Emily on our second episode of Labrador Radio Podcast talking about, well, Emily, what are we talking about today?
Fueling for Performance vs. Body Composition: A False Dichotomy?
00:00:54
Emily Dow
Today we're talking about the difference and many similarities, hint, between what it's like to fuel for performance versus body composition goals.
00:01:07
Emily Dow
um We're going get into like the overlaps, the things that distinguish the two, all that fun stuff.
00:01:13
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, because those things are presented frequently as like dichotomies, right? Like you either eat for performance if you're an athlete or you eat for aesthetics if you're like a yeah like ah a bodybuilder or you know a physique athlete, a physique competitor, or somebody that just wants to look good.
00:01:35
Nathan Jenkins
and then But like we're talking we speak mainly to the general public, like the masses, who kind of want both, right? And they feel like confused of like, i've have to I have to pursue one or the other.
00:01:50
Nathan Jenkins
And I think it's it's our shared cont contention to cut to the chase a little bit, that that's a false dichotomy, right?
00:01:50
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:01:59
Nathan Jenkins
But there's much to unpack there.
00:02:01
Emily Dow
Yeah. I think, Ooh, I think that a lot of our like initial viewpoints as to how to approach one versus the other are probably kind of shaped i by like our introduction to fitness in the beginning.
00:02:14
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:02:14
Emily Dow
Like I was an athlete growing up. So I had, thankfully like very healthy concepts of fueling. But then I found my way over to like all the bodybuilding educators and it's easy to kind of like learn about those two silos completely separate from one another.
00:02:33
Emily Dow
and I think that confuses a bunch of people into believing that they have to pursue either one or the other. And most adults do want both, I think. And you and I both want both.
00:02:44
Emily Dow
So...
Balancing Performance and Body Composition Goals
00:02:45
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, for sure.
00:02:46
Emily Dow
I think that it's important to clarify
00:02:50
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. um I can think of a few exceptions where like you really specialize on one or the other. and like go hard in the paint, like on performance at the exception of body composition, um, or performance or, or body composition, like peak leanness at, to the sacrifice of, of, uh, performance of, of, um,
00:03:21
Nathan Jenkins
You know, work capacity, like fitness, like even even you have as big as big and ripped muscles as possible, but you don't really care about strength, like how much weight you move, right?
00:03:33
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm.
00:03:34
Nathan Jenkins
that is ah That's a whole, um like those are two like extremes. And it's just so interesting. like So for the most listeners will know you very, very well as somebody that's been a content creator and ah and a coach.
00:03:51
Nathan Jenkins
um For context, if you're again, we've had one episode now. This is our second one. I've also been in the coaching space for a long time. I probably worked with like 1,500 unique individuals.
00:04:01
Nathan Jenkins
um They may be close to 2,000 at this point in my career. And ah so It's probably over, it's in the four figures number of people who think they have this, they come to me with that dichotomy, that that this dichotomy is thinking, and they're just regular people.
00:04:17
Nathan Jenkins
They're just like people like you and me, like, you know, busy, hardworking professionals just trying to do their best to figure out health and nutrition and like, you know, how to like thread these various needles.
00:04:17
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:04:29
Nathan Jenkins
But they think like, oh, if I eat more, then I'm going to get stronger, but I'm fat. And if I eat less, I'm going to be weak immediately, I'm going to get really lean. And neither of these things, like so much of our time and energy and effort and educating our clients, like in the intake phase, like right in that first couple of weeks is dedicated to this.
00:04:47
Emily Dow
Yeah, and I think like both of us share the mindset too of like not only can you pursue both, but most regular people probably should be pursuing both to an extent.
00:04:54
Nathan Jenkins
hmm.
00:04:59
Emily Dow
Like at least at
Educational Approach: Case Studies in Fitness
00:05:00
Emily Dow
a ah trying to achieve a healthy body composition and also care to some extent about performance, which I think we should define maybe what we mean by that in a moment because I think that's part of the mutual confusion too.
00:05:00
Nathan Jenkins
Mm hmm.
00:05:12
Nathan Jenkins
Sure.
00:05:14
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:05:15
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, we need to definitely to need to to define some terms, but like just to kind of like land the plane here on the introduction part, um what we want I think what we want to ask essentially is like, are these...
00:05:27
Nathan Jenkins
um
00:05:30
Nathan Jenkins
We're asking like whether performance and performance fueling and body composition are actually opposing systems or whether they are mostly the same thing. And do we just need to instead of like this binary, should we be talking about things like priorities right and also trade offs?
00:05:48
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:05:52
Nathan Jenkins
and there's going to be some degree of trade off and think about things on a spectrum and um defining also constraints and within which we're operating to pursue these various goals. right
00:06:04
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:06:04
Nathan Jenkins
So that's kind of like, is that, did that capture pretty well? Like the mission that we've been talking about before we finally, after much crazy technical difficulties, finally pushed the ri through. And we also talked about it. like We've done quite a bit of, you know, um laid the groundwork and done some preparation for this. But that hopefully that um sets the stage pretty well.
00:06:25
Emily Dow
Yeah, I think, yes. I think our objective like with this entire episode is to kind of like help people set expectations for the way that they approach both of these goals, one or one or both of these goals, and how to sort of like navigate setting those priorities in a way that actually makes sense for them.
00:06:49
Emily Dow
and we'll explain exactly what we mean by that in terms of, again, what those trade-offs are going to be, what that prioritization actually looks like, and what you don't actually have to sacrifice, even if you may convince that you do.
00:07:01
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:07:05
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, awesome. Okay, so let's get into um some definitions of terms here. um What do we mean, Emily? Excuse me, Dr. Emily?
00:07:16
Nathan Jenkins
by What do we mean by performance when we say that?
00:07:20
Emily Dow
So I think a lot of people when they hear performance kind of assume that we're talking to people who are like competing in something, who maybe like want to do a powerlifting meet or like Olympic weightlifting or high rocks.
00:07:29
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:07:34
Emily Dow
And that's not exclusively what we're referring to. um We're also referring to many of like the training adaptations that most people care about if they are training in the first place. So we're talking about metrics like strength, power, speed, endurance, um even more like specific ones related to like skill and balance even to an extent, but also recovering in between those sessions and actually
00:07:52
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:08:03
Nathan Jenkins
yeah
00:08:04
Emily Dow
again, achieving the adaptations that we're seeking week over week so that we're not just like training really hard and then wondering why we're not advancing over the span of years.
00:08:14
Emily Dow
So that's what we're speaking to with performance. It's not just like, can I compete in this sport? It can be a lot more generalized than that.
00:08:24
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:08:28
Emily Dow
um Most people care about performance, even if they don't realize they do, I would say.
00:08:33
Nathan Jenkins
Absolutely. Yeah, that's actually what I was just kind of thinking about is in my in my opinion, in my experience with people, most um everyday people, like who doesn't get jazzed about a new PR, right?
00:08:47
Emily Dow
Right.
00:08:47
Nathan Jenkins
And when somebody is like new to lifting, it's like reigning PRs. it and I come from like a CrossFit background, especially in that when there's like 8,000 different movements. There's that they can be daunting. Sure. And that's one of the things that people like kind of shit on about CrossFit. And that's fucking totally fair. A hundred percent. But the thing is, the thing is like when there's 8,000 different movements, there's 8,000 different opportunities for new PRs. And I've just like seen where people just get so pumped about that.
00:09:13
Nathan Jenkins
um And guess what? If that's something, then then that becomes like if they get excited about it and they get motivated. And then when they get motivated for those new PRs, well, guess what? You're training for performance. and But they but those those are the clients who come to us saying, I want to like i want to have a six pack in I want to be i met I'm at 13, 14 percent body fat and I want to get to sub 10, you know, um which is a whole exponential thing.
00:09:39
Nathan Jenkins
Like, you know, and it it turns out you're you're you're actually feeling for for performance, even though you don't realize that you are. So, yeah.
00:09:47
Emily Dow
yeah and I think
00:09:48
Nathan Jenkins
OK, ahead.
00:09:50
Emily Dow
Just to kind of tie a bow on that, I think like a bottleneck that a lot of people run into throughout their careers in fitness is this like psychological refusal to acknowledge themselves, even as like a recreational athlete. I think that term is very like intimidating to people. They don't feel like they fit that classification. So any discussions surrounding like performance nutrition just like kind of get ignored.
00:10:15
Emily Dow
Therefore, they might not actually be squeezing as much out of their training as they could. And that's what we're also going to try to like help everyone prevent when they are pursuing their body composition goals.
00:10:26
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And speaking of, okay, so let's so we define performance pretty well. We can come back to specific applications. ah but and And for those of you who are, um most probably most of you guys will be audio listeners, but if anybody's watching us on YouTube or I guess if we do the Spotify video thing, just forgive me because I've got notes pulled up on my second monitor. if i' If it looks like I'm like not making eye contact with you or with Emily, then I'm looking over here. um
00:10:58
Nathan Jenkins
So ah let's let's now we define performance, let's define body composition. um what do we mean like That's a pretty straightforward definition, but let's go ahead and like not make any assumptions here. What does what do we mean by by body composition?
00:11:13
Emily Dow
Yeah, it is straightforward in the sense that I think a lot of people like know what they want when they're talking about body composition, which is typically reductions in fat mass, lower body fat percentage, what have you.
00:11:19
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:11:23
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:11:25
Emily Dow
and And or, depending on the individual, increases in lean mass or muscle tissue.
00:11:32
Nathan Jenkins
What do
00:11:32
Emily Dow
um Some people want both, either at the same time or over time.
00:11:37
Nathan Jenkins
what do you mean some people?
00:11:39
Emily Dow
i think most people.
00:11:40
Nathan Jenkins
yeah I can't think of anybody who's come to me and said they don't want to be stronger. Let me qualify. didn't mean to interrupt you, but let me qualify that. Every male client, which is mostly who I've worked with over the years, is the 30, I'm going to say, paint with a broad brushstroke, 35 to 45-year-old male who's got like, he's probably like a lawyer and wants to look like Rich Froning.
00:12:05
Nathan Jenkins
um
00:12:06
Emily Dow
and
00:12:06
Nathan Jenkins
And I have to have this come to Jesus talk with the guy that's like, Hey, you're not going to be rich. I'm not rich running. You're not rich running. Um, anyway.
00:12:14
Emily Dow
Only returning.
00:12:14
Nathan Jenkins
Okay.
00:12:14
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:12:15
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah. it so like you're not training six, seven times a day, um because it's not your job. Um, which, which usually means get gain muscle mass and lose body fat at the same time to a significant degree, you know, um, which everybody wants to do that.
00:12:21
Emily Dow
Yeah. Well, ah kind of on the flip.
00:12:34
Nathan Jenkins
So anyway, okay. Sorry. Keep going.
00:12:36
Emily Dow
No, absolutely. I think like on the flip side of that, my experience working predominantly with women is that um I think most most women, not all, I will say, um they want to lose body fat. They want to get leaner. And I would say there is a little bit of...
00:12:55
Emily Dow
not It's not their fault. It's like societally like poor expectation setting in regards to how much muscle they actually want to develop without maybe realizing that they want that also.
00:13:08
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:13:08
Emily Dow
Because there's like the terminology of like trying to get toned and like, i well, I want muscle.
00:13:13
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:13:14
Emily Dow
And you and I both know that that muscle is just muscle. um It doesn't, we can't, we have no way to dictate like how it's shaped, how lean it is aside from modifying body composition.
00:13:27
Emily Dow
And so i make that point because i think it's really important in this conversation to distinguish between
00:13:27
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:13:34
Emily Dow
weight loss and fat loss and body composition comprises ideally like more lean mass, less fat mass.
00:13:36
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:13:42
Emily Dow
And sometimes that can manifest in interesting, unexpected, and at times confusing ways when it comes to body weight.
00:13:43
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:13:51
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:13:53
Emily Dow
And we can get into some of that down the line too.
00:13:53
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. Yeah. So the scale way doesn't necessarily capture the whole story. And you have been very vocal about like the, your ideal body composition.
00:14:05
Nathan Jenkins
There may be some disconnect with the number on the scale. There usually probably is, especially for your target. um Well, target, target the, the, the demographic that you've most ah that you've worked with the most.
00:14:17
Nathan Jenkins
um
00:14:19
Emily Dow
Correct.
00:14:19
Nathan Jenkins
There's a massive confusion. And by the way, like, I've also worked quite a bit with that. Honestly, by the numbers, I'm probably going to talk about both sides of my mouth here because a minute ago I said most of the people I've worked with are male clients, but by the numbers, I've probably more it worked with more women and that's actually the the story that I've heard the most. um The ones that caused me, like i was just i should qualify what I said before, 67% of my time has been spent on those high maintenance dudes who think who have aspirational goals of looking like Rich Froning, but by the numbers,
00:14:50
Nathan Jenkins
I've probably worked with more women. And yes, exactly. like that's the that's the that's the That's the disconnect for clients. And totally, and like you said, totally understandable like um because there's like so much like societal and like cultural, social media influences, all this stuff that tells you, you just even though like we've come a long way culturally since...
00:15:00
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:15:13
Nathan Jenkins
30 years ago, um there's still this never ending, always pervasive belief that like the lower number on the scale is better. And yet there's just like people look in the mirror.
00:15:26
Nathan Jenkins
I see this with both women and men, by the way, look in the mirror and they don't see the body composition that they expected or wanted at a certain body weight, even after working hard for a long time. So like, yeah, there's a lot to to talk about in this conversation um and bringing it back to this idea of like, okay, let's talk about where does performance fit in?
00:15:38
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm.
00:15:45
Nathan Jenkins
let's like So we've defined our terms performance and um body composition. Fueling does... what if we start thinking about fueling for the, for the former, for performance in order to address the ladder, to address the body composition, which I think brings us to our, the case study that we want to walk through.
00:16:08
Nathan Jenkins
Cause we're, um, and just to set, set that up real quick.
00:16:10
Emily Dow
correct.
00:16:12
Nathan Jenkins
If you've listened to the first episode, then you know what we're talking about. If you haven't, then welcome. But one of the things we're going to do in this podcast. So, um, Emily and I are both professors and we both, um, spend quite a bit of time and thought in how we teach people, whether that's student or clients.
00:16:30
Nathan Jenkins
And in the case in our in our classrooms, we find it very effective to use case studies, which is to say, here's ah here's a either real world with names changed or like hypothetical example that's kind of captures maybe a few different elements of things that happen. In my case, I teach it in the medical school, so it could be like in the clinic in in like a medical setting. um But also in the past I've worked with in the in physiology, extra physiology classroom. And that's where, like, Emily, that's where you work. um Case studies are very effective. Like, okay, you've got a a hypothetical client, and which is what we're going to now here in the podcast. We're going to use that method as a teaching modality as a, I don't know if we're, yeah, we're going to teach some things, but it's more like kick ideas back and forth, right?
00:17:12
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:17:13
Nathan Jenkins
Um, and so, yeah, like, so we're going to do that with this, with this topic and every topic that we touch on this podcast, today's topic, again, performance versus body composition, fueling for one or the other.
00:17:25
Nathan Jenkins
What is our case today, Emily?
Case Study: Cheryl's Fitness Journey
00:17:28
Emily Dow
Yeah. And like, I'm going to get into the details of it, but I think the point of this and the reason case studies are so effective is because humans like we don't exist in a vacuum of we're looking at this one question, this one system.
00:17:41
Emily Dow
And this is a really good example of that. Like we're looking at this individual that's going to have all these different things at play in his or her life. And it's our job to kind of like pick that apart and parse through what's important, what's maybe less important, and how those variables interact as opposed to just looking at one at a time.
00:17:56
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:18:01
Emily Dow
So for the purposes of today's topic, are our case that we'll be working with, and this will apply to a lot of similar archetypes of people, but let's say we're talking about like a 30-something-year-old woman She trains in multiple fitness modalities. You could call her a bit of a hybrid athlete um with goals of improving in those fitness modalities. So getting stronger, improving in her conditioning, wants to look like an athlete because she's training like an athlete, um but to avoid gaining weight while fueling for performance. She wants to stay lean. and She wants to look the part.
00:18:40
Emily Dow
Um, And that can be a little bit of a confusing situation based on the way that these things are discussed on the internet more broadly.
00:18:50
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. um So, right. So she's like trying to, come to, to pursue both of these things that we're talking about, the, the body composition and the performance and,
00:19:04
Nathan Jenkins
comes to you or, or to me, let's go, let's use, let's use, like comes to you, Emily, even though disclaimer, you need to correct me if this is not true, but my understanding is you're not taking clients.
00:19:14
Nathan Jenkins
So like, please people do not try to, she's shaking her head.
00:19:18
Emily Dow
Unfortunately, no.
00:19:19
Nathan Jenkins
Unfortunately, not not at the moment, but like and but in our, and neither am I actually, because we've got these other jobs.
00:19:19
Emily Dow
thanks
00:19:24
Nathan Jenkins
This is our, this is our method of like kind of our passion project to like fill that, to scratch that same edge of working with people to like kind of,
00:19:32
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:19:34
Nathan Jenkins
We just are basically pushing the record button and a lot of conversations that you and I have all the time. ah But so like, yeah, this is like the exact, this is such a typically great case for us to start with. Somebody that like, it's just coming to us confused about like, okay, I trained really hard. I feel like I eat pretty well, but I am not training as, or my, my output in training is not as high as I would like it to be. And I'd not performing as well as I would like to.
00:20:02
Nathan Jenkins
And I also don't feel like I look like I train as hard as I do. Right.
00:20:07
Emily Dow
Yep.
00:20:08
Nathan Jenkins
Audience, hopefully this is freaking resonating with you because this is all of you or this is so many of you. We like so, it's so common. Right. So, okay, so Emily, um we've got we've established the goals like improve strength, perform better, look better, avoid gaining. And also like a big one is want to gain muscle, but I don't want to weigh anymore.
00:20:27
Emily Dow
the
00:20:27
Nathan Jenkins
um i must gain i need to gain muscle. I need to look leaner. I need to get stronger, but i can't add the number on the scale cannot go up, right? um What's a typical pattern ah that you might see with this?
00:20:39
Nathan Jenkins
Or let's go like what have we defined as our case? like what Our case rep typifies the the the normal pattern of people that come to us with this total conundrum here.
00:20:51
Emily Dow
Yeah, so when someone comes to us with a conundrum like this, our first step is to look under the hood and to sort of understand life context a little bit more, because usually what we're told on the front end is like, hey, I'm working really hard.
00:21:05
Emily Dow
What the fuck is going on, basically, which is valid.
00:21:06
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:21:08
Emily Dow
um But what I always have everyone do, and this is where we would uncover these patterns, is i have everyone that I work with do a whole seven-day data collection week for me where they're logging all their food, they're logging their training sessions, they're logging recovery metrics, some subjective feedback. And typically we find the same...
00:21:30
Emily Dow
general pattern, which is we're consuming a lot of protein. It's maybe a little sporadic, but there's a large emphasis on protein.
00:21:37
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:21:39
Emily Dow
um
00:21:39
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm. Totally typical.
00:21:40
Emily Dow
Calories are kind of bobbing all over the place, but they're lower than they probably should be Monday through Friday. um And then that is typically compensated for maybe to an extent by more discretionary food choices over the weekends.
00:21:58
Emily Dow
And
00:21:59
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:22:00
Emily Dow
There's typically a lack of carbohydrates, sometimes more fats than the individual realizes they're consuming. There's not much of an emphasis.
00:22:08
Nathan Jenkins
Yep, those are sneaky. Yeah.
00:22:10
Emily Dow
Yeah, Sneaky, we'll get more into that too, but...
00:22:13
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:22:14
Emily Dow
Because that macronutrient distribution piece is a big part of this like performance optimization conversation.
00:22:20
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:22:21
Emily Dow
Um, but there's usually like not as much emphasis placed on pre post workout, sometimes even intra workout nutrition as there could be for someone who's seeking performance goals, whether or not they realize it.
00:22:35
Emily Dow
Um, And then there's this kind of like cycle that's perpetuated where working really hard and kind of feeling like shit all week because they're grinding. Then the weekend comes and it's like time to reward ourselves. But then they feel like shit mentally because they maybe went a little bit overboard.
00:22:51
Emily Dow
And then it's like, oh I got lock in again on Monday. And you end up working your ass off.
00:22:54
Nathan Jenkins
and
00:22:57
Emily Dow
That's usually not the problem. like Most of the people that you and I work with are comfortable working hard. and even like hurting to an extent to get what they want.
00:23:04
Nathan Jenkins
Sure.
00:23:07
Nathan Jenkins
Sure. Yeah.
00:23:08
Emily Dow
But it's it's kind of all for naught if none of it is actually landing the way that we want it to. So...
00:23:16
Nathan Jenkins
Absolutely. um Yeah. And
00:23:22
Nathan Jenkins
And so the the this same individual, is this our case, we haven't named her. Maybe we should name our are our our clients, our imaginary, made-up clients, our case.
00:23:37
Emily Dow
Let's go Cheryl. I don't know anyone with that name.
00:23:40
Nathan Jenkins
Cheryl, and enough cheryl that we have a, we apparently she is, we said she was 30 something, but apparently she's 78 years old. But Cheryl, um our 30 something year old a CrossFit or hybrid athlete type high rocks,
00:24:01
Nathan Jenkins
client who wants to run fast and lift heavy and do all those things. She, uh, the internet is telling her she needs to do one of two things, right? She either needs to fuel for performance and accept gaining fat, or she's to maintain the deficit and accept poor performance.
00:24:11
Emily Dow
Yep.
00:24:15
Nathan Jenkins
Um, so, ah you know, When somebody comes to you like this, ah come somebody like this comes to you,
00:24:28
Nathan Jenkins
um what kinds of information do you look for that, like when you first, so the the process that we have, we have similar, we have, you and i have similar, but also slightly different intake processes, but basically our clients will fill out a form, right?
00:24:43
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:24:44
Nathan Jenkins
And then we get to know them a little bit. In your case, I think you you've done a really job of like being really thorough with that, with like, you have a whole week process of, where you collect a bunch of data and information on them, but like, what do you find? What kinds of stuff information that you might find?
00:24:57
Nathan Jenkins
Let's say Cheryl is your actual client. and Let's fill in some blanks here. fill in some gaps. What information do you find in that first and intake period that like might explain some of these things that might resonate with our listeners?
00:25:08
Nathan Jenkins
Like, ah, this was actually, this is information that was missing in your intake that as as we go back and forth, then maybe you realize about her and then Cheryl might realize about herself.
00:25:09
Emily Dow
yeah
00:25:18
Nathan Jenkins
Let's talk about that.
00:25:18
Emily Dow
Yeah, that that that week is enlightening for me. And then it's also enlightening as the client recording all this because
00:25:22
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:25:27
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:25:28
Emily Dow
you start to see these things unfold before your eyes and it's always funny. um But typically, like predictably, and this would probably happen if i had taken a break from tracking for a long period of time and like just kind of got my bearings and did the same thing. It's normal. But what I would probably find is an incredibly sporadic,
00:25:49
Emily Dow
amount of day-to-day variability. Some days would be like clocking 1100 calories because it was busy at work and eating was just not prioritized.
00:25:51
Nathan Jenkins
jason
00:25:59
Emily Dow
The next days maybe like 2600 calories because Cheryl's fucking hungry because she was in like an extreme deficit the day before.
00:26:08
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:26:08
Emily Dow
um and And look, what matters most for body composition and information that I'm gathering from this one week is what's your average intake look like?
00:26:20
Emily Dow
um
00:26:21
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:26:21
Emily Dow
Because when we know that average intake, and even a week isn't perfect, but we see average is maybe like 2,100 calories, let's say.
00:26:30
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:26:31
Emily Dow
And Cheryl's body weight is being maintained. That now gives me insight into, based on what her eating has looked like, and like her biometric information.
00:26:43
Emily Dow
This is somewhere within her maintenance range, and that is a range.
00:26:46
Nathan Jenkins
Sure.
00:26:47
Emily Dow
It's not like one one hard number or anything. um
00:26:51
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:26:52
Emily Dow
If she's maintaining, that's roughly somewhere within her maintenance. So that is part one of that information.
00:26:55
Nathan Jenkins
Sure.
00:26:57
Emily Dow
Part two, though, that variability and how it's influencing, even if it's not influencing body composition to a significant extent, it's A, influencing performance.
00:26:58
Nathan Jenkins
Absolutely.
00:27:08
Emily Dow
It's also influencing how she feels, which is noteworthy because... calories are a unit of energy like i i harp on this a lot so if there are a couple of days that are incredibly low calorie and then some that are incredibly high calorie and we wonder why we feel all over the place throughout a week
00:27:16
Nathan Jenkins
okay Yeah.
00:27:28
Nathan Jenkins
It turns out she is. Yeah.
00:27:31
Emily Dow
right and training feels all over the place recovery who knows what the fuck's going on with like hrv
00:27:38
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:27:38
Emily Dow
Usually phase one for me is we need to establish some stability before we do anything else.
00:27:44
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah. It's established stability and establish an understanding or where is the client? Where's the individual on the understanding of what I would call a law of the universe, which is a plan to it's it's a fail to plan or plan to fail.
00:28:03
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:28:03
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm.
00:28:04
Nathan Jenkins
you You get to choose one of those. And, and, and it's like most of the time when people come to to hire, they've hired a coach or they've downloaded ah a tracking app or a diet coaching app, fill in the blank of which those that they're in there are great. But like the, the thing that whatever the the mechanism is, uh, that's the, that's usually the initial thing that, um,
00:28:26
Nathan Jenkins
folks will learn or that's the, the, the, the pain point that gets exposed is like, I have been just freaking, you know, wheeling freewheeling this, just winging it. And that is the source of the lack of stability.
00:28:40
Nathan Jenkins
um And that, that alone is, is Matt, like a massive learning point. And so if we can, if we can like have that breakthrough for folks, like if you're just like, kind of, you know, I'm going to wake up, I've got my macro targets, but I'm just, I'm not sure how I'm going to hit them.
00:28:46
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:28:55
Nathan Jenkins
You know, I'm gonna
00:28:56
Emily Dow
Right.
00:28:56
Nathan Jenkins
I always call it like macro Tetris, like just fill in like fill in the film. And then like the game of Tetris, like I grew up playing it. Like the the the further along you get in the game, you get closer to like it ending.
00:29:07
Nathan Jenkins
The music gets more and more chaotic and faster.
00:29:09
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:29:10
Nathan Jenkins
And it's like as the day goes on, it's like that the stress mounts. And that's that's that is Cheryl.
00:29:15
Emily Dow
Yeah. and you're And then you're like,
00:29:16
Nathan Jenkins
Cheryl's playing Tetris and she's freaking out at the tour. She's almost like at the end of the game and she's hired you, Emily. yeah
00:29:24
Emily Dow
Yeah, it's and it is fucking stress like if you get to the end of the day and you're like, how am I supposed to hit like 40 40 more of protein with two grams of fat and like I'm negative on carbs.
00:29:30
Nathan Jenkins
yeah
00:29:34
Nathan Jenkins
oh yeah yeah yeah they're there the classic scenario is you're over on i think i think most like it's cheryl if we were to like keep keep it grounded with cheryl how what do you think of this emily you tell me tell me if you think this is right um she is over on fat already and and way under on
00:29:34
Emily Dow
All right. It's it doesn't.
00:29:45
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:29:54
Nathan Jenkins
way under on protein and probably under on carbs for what she needs to do for fueling. She's probably okay for carbs for maintenance because that's, you know,
00:30:01
Emily Dow
Yeah. And she probably thinks it's already too many carbs.
00:30:06
Nathan Jenkins
Right. And she's like, if I eat more carbs, then i'm gonna am I going to gain weight because it's late or night or something? you know and to to to to mix some To mix, not mix metaphors, but mix ah freaking like things that people panic about.
00:30:10
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:30:17
Nathan Jenkins
um
00:30:17
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:30:19
Nathan Jenkins
So anyway, yeah. like we're What we're talking about is like we're unpacking a bunch of things that on the lines of like, introducing stability where there has not been because of a lack of awareness of the importance of planning.
00:30:34
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:30:35
Nathan Jenkins
that's the That is a huge first step.
00:30:35
Emily Dow
and to And the reason this is the conversation is led down this like somewhat, it's an adjacent tangent is because this matters for performance and for body composition.
00:30:48
Emily Dow
And
Consistency and Planning for Success
00:30:48
Emily Dow
this foundation has to be set regardless of what you're trying to pursue.
00:30:48
Nathan Jenkins
It matters for everything. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:30:54
Emily Dow
Because if you don't know what the fuck is going on, you have no direction. And so we have to understand what's going on first, which can be very frustrating because people reach the point when they want to hire someone or when they really want to do something about this and they don't want to spend four weeks just establishing stability.
00:30:58
Nathan Jenkins
here
00:31:03
Nathan Jenkins
yeah
00:31:11
Emily Dow
um
00:31:11
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:31:12
Emily Dow
I call it like a calibration phase, but...
00:31:13
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:15
Emily Dow
One exciting caveat to that is that like during that calibration phase, sometimes really exciting things are happening at the same time. And you're, if you're paying attention, you notice that you're feeling better and you're performing well, and maybe your body composition already starts changing in a positive direction because of that piece. So That is why we're setting the stage this way, because that structure is key.
00:31:36
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah. It's...
00:31:39
Emily Dow
And it's also, even though it sounds stressful to like meticulously plan things, it's actually incredibly freeing because then you avoid the decision fatigue all throughout the day.
00:31:47
Nathan Jenkins
it's
00:31:50
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, yeah. And this is such a good, like you said, um important adjacent tangent. I can't tell you the number of times that I've given to clients their baseline, like their base macros, like maintenance macros, just to start.
00:32:07
Nathan Jenkins
And I see like 20 pounds of weight loss. you know, in in like three months, I don't have to adjust a damn thing.
00:32:10
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:32:14
Nathan Jenkins
All I have to do is give them the numbers and then just walk them through the consistency piece that we're talking about.
00:32:14
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:32:19
Emily Dow
Right.
00:32:20
Nathan Jenkins
and And and maybe maybe like two months in, it's like, OK, now we've now we've leveled out and as far as the the body weight and body composition trend. You know, this is for like a classic, this a classic fat loss client who cares a little bit more about body composition and less about performance.
00:32:29
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm.
00:32:35
Nathan Jenkins
But they' still guess what? They start performing better because guess guess what? The other thing is lean bodies move better and therefore perform better usually.
00:32:40
Emily Dow
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:43
Nathan Jenkins
um And so, yeah, that is that is ah it gets to the if there's thats this is a big takeaway for Cheryl and for those of you who have resonate with Cheryl listening to this, um consistency.
00:32:56
Nathan Jenkins
She's like, are we are we reinventing the wheel here? We probably are. There's plenty of podcasts to talk about that, um but that's okay. they wrote You know, it's things these things bear repeating, but...
00:33:07
Emily Dow
Yeah, I think in terms of setting the stage, I think it's important to identify that pretty much regardless of the client, that is that is step one.
00:33:15
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:33:16
Emily Dow
And that is how um we've walked, like not to humble brag, but we've walked collectively thousands of clients through successful execution of these goals.
00:33:17
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:33:24
Nathan Jenkins
A hundred percent. Mm-hmm.
00:33:27
Emily Dow
And it always starts there. So no matter how advanced you are, like I would start here personally too, if I had the goals.
00:33:29
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:33:33
Nathan Jenkins
first Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, I think on a micro scale, just speaking personally too, like i my own fitness and body composition journey, but what I'm prioritizing performance and versus body composition, that that ebbs and flows, it changes.
00:33:49
Nathan Jenkins
And so like, I, you know, i don't know, quarterly, every six months, like have a like a come to Jesus talk with myself about like, what do I really want? um If I see things changing in either of those domains in a way that I don't love, it's like, okay, well, what am I really doing here?
00:34:04
Nathan Jenkins
Come on. You're the professional.
00:34:06
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:34:06
Nathan Jenkins
you know like Act like it.
00:34:06
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:34:08
Nathan Jenkins
like i have that's a whole That is a tangent that we don't need to go down. But like anyway, just to make the point that we're human and have those things these these these struggles too.
00:34:15
Emily Dow
dinner
00:34:16
Nathan Jenkins
But um coming to back to Cheryl, emily so
00:34:24
Nathan Jenkins
Emily. There's a few things we haven't defined for her, and I don't know that we need to. But one of like we haven't have actually said her starting body weight or her body weight goal or her body composition goal. We're keeping this generic. we haven't We have said that she does value performance in like the hybrid domain. and She wants to be fast and strong. Let's put it that way and move well, be like a hybrid athlete.
00:34:47
Nathan Jenkins
and don't We don't need to pin it down anymore. We don't need to put body weight numbers on it or anything like that. But like I think the the the good summary to this point is like there's a lot of uncertainty with this case. right there's like We don't have a clear-cut direction. We don't have a clear-cut goal necessarily.
00:35:02
Nathan Jenkins
We don't have an immediate diagnosis. And that is is that kind of that's kind of the point, is it not?
00:35:07
Emily Dow
yeah That is the point, yeah. Because you you need to do this thing before a diagnosis.
00:35:09
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:35:13
Emily Dow
Like if if we find during this first week that Cheryl is eating 1600 calories on average across a week, we're not dieting right away.
00:35:24
Emily Dow
That's not the healthy choice to make.
00:35:25
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:35:26
Emily Dow
For example, if she's averaging 2,400 calories, she's in like a pretty healthy spot that changes the plan to an extent because now we're in a healthy enough place physiologically to kind of, that's when it's choose your own adventure and we can kind of go down paths with how we approach things.
00:35:42
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:35:46
Emily Dow
Um, But I do think that we both tend to think about a client like this in some sort of phasic manner, like some sort of seasonal manner where, okay, fat loss is a goal and sometimes it takes a long time to get to your actual endpoint.
00:35:57
Nathan Jenkins
here
00:36:04
Emily Dow
But there should still be at the outset a plan for like, how long am I going to be doing this, for example?
00:36:12
Emily Dow
And then what is the exit strategy? Because that is another dangerous path to go down is like aimlessness with body composition goals.
00:36:12
Nathan Jenkins
here
00:36:18
Nathan Jenkins
Oh, gosh, yeah, absolutely. 100%, yeah.
Setting Realistic Expectations and Timelines
00:36:21
Nathan Jenkins
ah hundred percent yeah Yeah, yeah. That's one of the things I always did. Again, it's it's fun to talk about this because it's mostly like reminiscing at this point because I'm not working with clients and will not be for the foreseeable future. But like one of the things I learned early on when I started coaching people was um at intake, I needed like to communicate to them based on it and my understanding of where they are now and what their goals are, then how long do they should they expect to work with me if you really want to accomplish that. And that could range anywhere from three months to like two years.
00:36:49
Nathan Jenkins
um Usually it's three to 12 months is the ti is the norm for most folks. um I would always tell people like, all right, if you want to lose about 10% of your starting body weight, that's about a three-month timeline aggressively, ah maybe six months if you factor in life.
00:37:05
Nathan Jenkins
And, you know, exactly.
00:37:05
Emily Dow
that Vacations and holidays, yeah.
00:37:09
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, which almost everybody, you know, runs into. Yeah. But ah yeah, let's let's come back to Cheryl. um So we don't, we, let's say like we want to, is it fair to say for the, until we decide different, do we want to say that she still wants to kind of pursue both, and so like both performance and body composition at the same time?
00:37:34
Emily Dow
Yes, that's fair.
00:37:36
Nathan Jenkins
um
00:37:36
Emily Dow
That's fine.
00:37:37
Nathan Jenkins
and and and and to like make this a little bit more concrete. So what are some things that she needs that we need to think about? If you're coaching her, what are you thinking about as far as like priorities? Once we've done this baseline phase and like going forward, like step step one for like say the next three months or so.
00:37:56
Emily Dow
Yeah, so I would say once that sort of consistency has been established, we all know that in order to lose body fat, a calorie deficit is like It's necessary. That's unavoidable.
00:38:11
Emily Dow
um I think with the performance goal existing in parallel with that, we need to be wise because I think another like misstep that a lot of folks run into is going too hard on the calorie deficit, like going too restrictive, too fast, being unnecessarily aggressive.
00:38:19
Nathan Jenkins
it
00:38:29
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:38:33
Emily Dow
And that's when performance tends to tank.
00:38:33
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:38:36
Emily Dow
And that's also when the body comp improvements aren't even as ideal because like there's even literature on this that both of us are familiar with. The faster you lose weight,
00:38:48
Emily Dow
the more at risk you are of sacrificing lean mass as part of that weight loss.
00:38:52
Nathan Jenkins
Right. Yeah.
00:38:54
Emily Dow
So to exclusively lose body fat, the deficit does not have to be that large. And that still leaves room to fuel performance in a tangible and like reasonable way.
00:39:00
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:39:05
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I really wish was talked about more in the social media landscape, this is exactly the point you just made. I'm just going to say it maybe a little bit. um Hopefully, I'm just repeating it, honestly, for because reinforcement is powerful. um People talk a lot about ga body composition, but what's not talked about as much is the composition of the weight that you lose.
00:39:26
Emily Dow
Right.
00:39:27
Nathan Jenkins
um That should be like, okay, I want to lose weight. Well, let's talk about the composition of the weight that you want to lose. That in itself is a very rich talking point. like And the rate, the like' just we're again, repeating with exactly what you said, the rate is the determining factor of the composition of weight loss. do you want to like Okay, if you if you ask somebody that wants to improve their body composition, what are they going to say? i want to lose all the fat and keep all the muscle.
00:39:51
Nathan Jenkins
but I want to lose all the fat as fast as possible. Um, well, if you want to lose all the fat, then we have to talk about the speed. We have to talk about the rate. And it turns out that that is very well worked out that it's roughly like, you know, uh, what is it for most people it works.
00:40:08
Nathan Jenkins
think there's percentages with this, but in practices around a pound a week of body weight, you know, give it half a pound practice.
00:40:10
Emily Dow
yeah
00:40:13
Emily Dow
yeah it's about like one to two percent i believe so depending on size i've seen like larger men lose like a couple pounds a week sustainably but
00:40:18
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:24
Nathan Jenkins
For sure. Yeah. And like the big dudes, like I've worked with my, I love working with them because it like, it looks so dramatic on the scale. Um, 250 pound guy started that is goal body weight is like sub 200.
00:40:30
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:40:35
Nathan Jenkins
It starts, like I give him, that's the example. I give the baseline, you know, maintenance, macros diet to, and he starts following it. and stops eating freaking garbage and drinking, you know, three beers a night, know, whatever. um And yeah, the the the rate at the beginning is dramatic, but, but for that, those are, these are edge cases. The, for, for the, for the, for the masses, the, the rate of weight loss is the, the determining factor on the end body composition.
00:41:05
Nathan Jenkins
So the composition of the weight loss is a huge deal.
00:41:06
Emily Dow
Yeah. And
00:41:10
Emily Dow
yes, because yeah, the faster it's lost and I've, I've had, you know, clients have, who have had this experience before coming to work with me, um, or who are adamant, they're like, no, I'm going to do this, whether you approve of it or not, you know?
00:41:26
Emily Dow
um and they want to lose the weight more aggressively. And I can say from experience, nobody's ever as happy with their body composition at the end point when they go that route.
00:41:37
Emily Dow
Even if they've lost as much weight as they wanted to lose, they've like reached their goal weight.
00:41:38
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:41:42
Emily Dow
But unbeknownst to them, they weren't necessarily protecting muscle mass to the extent they could have.
00:41:45
Nathan Jenkins
They lost my... Mm-hmm. Yep. i've I've had that. I've had that too. Like people will complain about like, okay, i'm I met, I can think of an example. I'm but not going to give the number ah body weight in case that person is listening to this and hears them, hears me calling them out. But I i met this 100 and some but three digit number.
00:42:05
Emily Dow
Yep.
00:42:05
Nathan Jenkins
and I don't look like I thought I would at this three-digit number.
00:42:09
Emily Dow
All
00:42:09
Nathan Jenkins
What's going on? It's like, well, you went faster than I thought we would get. You got here faster than I wanted us to. um
00:42:13
Emily Dow
right.
00:42:14
Nathan Jenkins
And then there's also cases most of the time though, Emily, what I would say has happened with me and that in the scenarios, like people who are come out hot out the gate. And like there I'm saying, you you you're cut it you're're not eating as much as I'm telling you to right now.
00:42:28
Nathan Jenkins
You can see because you've done this.
00:42:28
Emily Dow
Okay.
00:42:29
Nathan Jenkins
yeah i've lost this I've lost weight. so I know what I'm doing. I've lost this weight so many times. um
00:42:34
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:42:35
Nathan Jenkins
And so they just kind of take matters their own hands and try to go fast. And then I stop hearing from them. um They just like completely, they you know they just fall off.
00:42:42
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:42:45
Nathan Jenkins
um And it's okay. If you've done this this many times, do you really know what you're doing? Because listen, if you listen to what we we're telling you to do, you'll do it this one last time and then you'll be done with it. How about that?
00:42:56
Emily Dow
yeah
00:42:57
Nathan Jenkins
How about you never lose have to lose that the same freaking 20, 30 pounds again?
00:42:57
Emily Dow
and
00:43:02
Emily Dow
And I, yes, exactly. And I think it's worth, to riff off of this a little bit, I think it's worth kind of like, because I've seen people successfully losing body fat at exactly the rate I would hope for as the coach.
00:43:16
Emily Dow
And them see those numbers and not internalize that it's enough.
00:43:16
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:43:16
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:43:21
Emily Dow
And especially for like, let's say our archetype of Cheryl here, She's probably, ah same with many of the people who reach out to me, like who make up kind of our audiences, are not starting off at like a super unhealthy body fat percentage as it stands. Like there's not that much body fat to lose.
00:43:39
Emily Dow
And when that's your reality, best case scenario to lose exclusively body fat, you might be looking at like weight three pounds a week and that's fucking awesome.
00:43:49
Nathan Jenkins
Sure. Yeah.
00:43:50
Emily Dow
and especially if like, i've I've had clients who are like 120 something pounds and depending on height, obviously that could look differently, but there is not that much to lose.
00:43:59
Nathan Jenkins
Sure.
00:44:01
Emily Dow
And so we can't expect three pounds a week.
00:44:02
Nathan Jenkins
Right. You can't do.
00:44:04
Emily Dow
That's not going to happen.
00:44:05
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:44:06
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:44:06
Nathan Jenkins
Right. Right. 100%. Right. 100%. right
00:44:08
Emily Dow
Sometimes success is also very confusing to people because it's maybe not what they had expected at the outset.
00:44:09
Nathan Jenkins
hundred percent
00:44:14
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah. um
00:44:19
Nathan Jenkins
So let's, let's, let's, um and we haven't necessarily defined too much of this too much, but like with Cheryl, let's say it sounds like the way they're just going naturally off of the things we're talking about.
Caloric Allocation for Performance and Composition
00:44:28
Nathan Jenkins
Let's say there's a little bit of body fat excess.
00:44:32
Nathan Jenkins
We've just, we've established, it seems like that's, we've established that. and there's a performance deficit, where do you start from like a diet plan perspective, like nutrition strategies, macronutrients, total calories, macro timing?
00:44:46
Emily Dow
ye
00:44:49
Nathan Jenkins
what do you trying What are the levers you're pulling and in what order there?
00:44:54
Emily Dow
Yeah, so I think it's probably helpful to put some numbers in the mix here when we're talking about like what's too aggressive of a deficit, what's a reasonable deficit.
00:44:59
Nathan Jenkins
Sure.
00:45:03
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:45:04
Emily Dow
I'm super conservative with someone like this who wants to maintain performance or improve their performance.
00:45:08
Nathan Jenkins
Yep.
00:45:12
Emily Dow
i'm usually i usually land with people between 10 and 20% energy deficit, generally speaking. And so I start on the low end. I'm like, we're we're slashing as few calories as possible. We're going to see what happens.
00:45:26
Emily Dow
um And then i can obviously then you can dig deeper from there, which is a nice position to be in. ah And usually, so not going too aggressive with the deficit is kind of like,
00:45:39
Emily Dow
priority number one. But as we sort of established already with Cheryl, her macronutrient distribution could probably use some work in the sense that It's great if protein is being prioritized because everybody kind of knows protein is important for these things at this point. But I found that because of that, as a consequence, a lot of people do consume much fewer carbs than they should for performance.
00:46:03
Emily Dow
And usually ah unbeknownst to them, more fats than they need to.
00:46:03
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:46:09
Emily Dow
And you kind of alluded to this earlier, fats and this is just not something that everyone everyone thinks about. Fats are twice as energy dense, more than twice gram, than carbs and protein.
00:46:17
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:46:19
Emily Dow
So if you're exceeding what you need from a fat perspective by 20, 30 grams a day, that contributes a considerable number of calories that could be better used elsewhere.
00:46:28
Nathan Jenkins
It adds up. Yeah.
00:46:31
Emily Dow
So that is some... That is some work that we would be doing with Cheryl off the bat too, because reallocating some of those calories towards carbs, which are performance enhancing in many ways, would also be priority.
00:46:42
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:46:47
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Cheryl, I hate to take away, or at least, I'm sorry to say take away your avocado toast, but you know be a little bit just be ah a little bit more cognizant of the avocado toast every single weekend. you know Because that cause that can that's can add up. You know what i mean?
00:47:05
Nathan Jenkins
um And people say like people don't realize lot of times like the impact of those things. um They really do. Yeah, it's and it's it's too bad because... Well, the damn things, they taste good.
00:47:18
Nathan Jenkins
Fats.
00:47:19
Emily Dow
great. And that's the thing, like, I talk so much about like the benefits of carbs. I don't ever mean to vilify fats. Fats are obviously incredibly important also, but it's just so much easier.
00:47:29
Nathan Jenkins
Oh, yeah.
00:47:30
Emily Dow
They find you in day-to-day life. And a lot of people I've found, like when they're constructing a meal and we kind of like to think about like, I need a protein source, a carb source, a fat source, a fiber source, et cetera.
00:47:40
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:47:42
Emily Dow
um A lot of people don't realize that they have like way more fat sources in that meal, like than the ones that are obvious to them, especially if like, you're choosing a fatty protein source.
00:47:54
Emily Dow
You probably don't also need avocado and nuts and all these other things in that same meal.
00:47:54
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:47:58
Nathan Jenkins
Right, right, right, right. um Okay. Well, let's let's just say this hypothetical, on riffing off of that, of Cheryl's like, all right. All right, Emily, you've told me to like be mindful of my fats and I do need to be in a deficit.
00:48:14
Nathan Jenkins
um for my body composition. Maybe she's she's like fully understanding of that, but she's like, all right, but I'm really worried that I'm going to, you know i've got ah I've got a ah max test this week of like, i'm i'm we're supposed to do it in our ah Olympic lifting. We're supposed to max out our, so you know, we're doing the Olympic total. We're doing our snatch and clean a jerk total on Saturday.
00:48:33
Nathan Jenkins
What if I don't have enough fat going into it? You know, like I'm going to be depleted of my fat for four days going into it. It's like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to PR.
00:48:44
Nathan Jenkins
Like um um she's panicking. What do you, how do you, how do you address that?
00:48:46
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:48:48
Emily Dow
We don't need...
00:48:50
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:48:50
Emily Dow
yeah I was like almost confused by this question because I'm like, we don't need... You don't need as much fat as you think you need for performance. like That's the other side to that coin that I was kind of like speaking to without saying it.
00:49:04
Emily Dow
is It's not that fats are bad, but they're not as productive towards those scenarios as carbs will be because we're predominantly using carbs during those activities and then using them to recover from those activities.
00:49:09
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:49:11
Nathan Jenkins
m
00:49:14
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:49:17
Emily Dow
Whereas... Fats are providing the calories, but they're not directly contributing in the same way. So I would rather be all carved up.
00:49:24
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. you know it was
00:49:28
Nathan Jenkins
Right. No, it's, it's, it's, it's it's it yeah.
00:49:28
Emily Dow
Yep.
00:49:31
Nathan Jenkins
And I, hopefully the listeners get this, but it was actually a very intentional question of okay, fats are reduced. Therefore calories are reduced. You're in a calorie deficit ah going into this max lifting day in a cal caloric deficit.
00:49:45
Nathan Jenkins
but and I'm panicking. But what did you say? You said that, you're yes, you're in a deficit, but your carbs are adequate. And your protein is adequate. You're fueled. Even though you're ah you're in a net deficit for body composition, ah, what have we done? We've threaded the needle, have we not?
00:50:02
Nathan Jenkins
um and And before people come at us in the comments or wherever the, I don't know, are there comments on spot?
00:50:03
Emily Dow
Yes. There
00:50:08
Nathan Jenkins
We're new to podcasting.
00:50:09
Emily Dow
are.
00:50:10
Nathan Jenkins
ah People just say, like, people do comment at us on our comments on Instagram, you more than me. um But the the coming at us in the comments, like, oh, do you need really cars for lifting? Well, I think you do for for like and ah like a max effort, like Olympic total session, ah because that's a, you know, repeated high power output, ah multiple lift session.
00:50:29
Nathan Jenkins
If anyone's ever done a lifting meet, you're breathing hard, you know, in your warmups and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, like repeated, it's not like, that might not have been the best example. Like fill in the blank, like got a big CrossFit, like you got Murph coming up on, we're we're a couple of months out from that now, but You know, like it doesn't really matter.
00:50:46
Nathan Jenkins
Fill in the blank of what your performance wants to be. This athlete wants to do it all. um A big high rocks test, maybe a local high rocks competition, whatever have you.
00:50:50
Emily Dow
Yeah.
00:50:54
Nathan Jenkins
that all it all The answer is always the same. Like, oh, if you're a little bit low on fats, therefore low on calories, but your carbs and your protein are adequate, you know what? You might perform as well or better um a lot of the time.
00:51:08
Nathan Jenkins
yeah.
00:51:09
Emily Dow
Yeah. and And especially there's a lot that goes into that conversation because like mostly what we're relying on for most of these activities are it's stored carbohydrate, it's glycogen.
00:51:20
Emily Dow
And so no, you don't necessarily need to do some crazy carb load before an effort like that, depending on the demands.
00:51:24
Nathan Jenkins
No.
00:51:27
Emily Dow
If it's different, if you're about to run like an ultra marathon or something, but for like ah a lifting base or even a CrossFit workout, you probably don't need to worry about it.
00:51:30
Nathan Jenkins
Sure.
00:51:36
Emily Dow
you know, to that extent, but that is the substrate that you're going to be using. And so it just makes more sense to prioritize that from an intake standpoint than it does to have those calories allocated towards something less productive.
00:51:41
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:51:45
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:51:51
Emily Dow
um And then you can get cute with the timing of it also, which we can, we can also like pivot into because there are windows where it does make more sense to prioritize certain macronutrients.
00:51:58
Nathan Jenkins
yeah
00:52:02
Nathan Jenkins
yeah and emily actually that's a good question do you want to talk about timing next or which is important for cheryl or do you want to talk about like let's say she has a um
00:52:15
Nathan Jenkins
Like where where might the goals um differ? Like where might the strategies for the different goals actually differ for like for body composition versus performance?
00:52:23
Emily Dow
here
00:52:29
Emily Dow
Yeah, I think so. i think that we can kind of like almost cover both in a sense, because I think like.
00:52:36
Nathan Jenkins
Okay.
00:52:39
Emily Dow
What we will eventually, and don't know if you necessarily plan on arriving here already, but it's fine. So what we'll eventually land on is that like, you can have these two compartments to your goals and a lot of them overlap.
00:52:52
Emily Dow
It's like a Venn diagram where the majority is existing in that middle.
00:52:53
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. okay
00:52:56
Emily Dow
But depending on how heavily you want to prioritize one versus the other, that will dictate how the approach differs, realistically speaking.
00:53:07
Emily Dow
So like,
00:53:08
Nathan Jenkins
nice
00:53:09
Emily Dow
maybe she cares about performance in like an everyday sense. Like she doesn't want to feel weaker in the gym. She doesn't want to like not be motivated for her training. okay, we can just focus on making sure that macronutrient distribution makes sense, that like you know timing is ah considered with different macronutrients.
00:53:29
Emily Dow
And that kind of, for the most part, can essentially check that box. But if we're talking about, I want to lose body fat and I signed up for a marathon in four months, that's a very different context, the way that we prioritize.
00:53:39
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah. yeah Yeah. yeah And so how do you like, in that scenario, like, what do you, do you pump the brake you do you pump the brakes on the fat loss basically?
00:53:47
Emily Dow
oof that's
00:53:50
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
00:53:51
Emily Dow
that's a tough one because I do not feel comfortable I've never felt comfortable like coaching someone through an entire training block for a very specific performance event like that and guiding them at the same time those are not very compatible in my opinion and that's not
00:54:04
Nathan Jenkins
okay
00:54:10
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, that might be.
00:54:12
Emily Dow
That's not to say that this is like a quick but important point that we haven't quite stated yet.
00:54:13
Nathan Jenkins
Go
00:54:19
Nathan Jenkins
ahead.
00:54:21
Emily Dow
Feeling for for for performance is not like being completely lax about everything and just like eating everything in sight and eating in excess.
00:54:31
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
00:54:34
Emily Dow
That is not... That is not the assumption when we talk about performance. It's never excess. It's limiting the demands of the training that we're doing.
00:54:40
Nathan Jenkins
yeah
00:54:44
Emily Dow
And so if we pump the brakes on fat loss, that's not to say we're sacrificing your body composition and you're going to look like shit by the end of this. It's just we're not we're not going to be as aggressive about that right now because it doesn't make sense to you.
00:54:57
Emily Dow
But maybe we maintain for a little bit while your performance skyrockets.
00:54:58
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah, um on on that, like that um you just reminded me of something that my former boss, Dr. Mike Isertel with RP Strength, that was a coach, was one of the staff coaches with them for a long time. He is ah famous for saying like maintenance dieting and even muscle gain dieting in like the bodybuilding context is not a um a exercise in in fucking absurdity.
00:55:27
Emily Dow
Right.
00:55:27
Nathan Jenkins
where you just like eat freaking cake and like, you know, just like, just to the excess. It is actually a very controlled, um the magnitude of the excess above maintenance is very precise and it is planned and it's not just a free for all.
00:55:45
Nathan Jenkins
And that's the other that's it that actually is a really good um ah kind of side point that you just made because I think that's that's that is what people like think they think. Oh, I'm just supposed to eat everything in sight so that I can perform better.
00:55:57
Emily Dow
Right.
00:55:58
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm.
00:55:58
Nathan Jenkins
It's like, no, no, you're not going to.
00:56:00
Nathan Jenkins
If you end up gaining an extra 10 pounds of body fat, guess what? and there's i can't think of a – there's some sports, sumo wrestling, but not many sports where that's a performance advantage. it's Again, it's controlled.
00:56:11
Nathan Jenkins
it the You want that you want that that weight gain to go to certain levels. a tissue distribution, i.e. more muscle than fat. um But ah okay, that's that's that was an excellent point.
00:56:22
Nathan Jenkins
and But the other thing that based off of something that you said that I don't remember now, but I wanted to follow up on is, um oh, going back to the the marathon in four months and also having body composition goals, that seems like it's an example of like a hard stop.
00:56:36
Nathan Jenkins
Like I'm not going to cut to put this person through a fat loss diet. It might be useful for listeners to like talk through some of our hard stops on when would I absolutely not prioritize.
00:56:40
Emily Dow
That's
00:56:48
Nathan Jenkins
but I think it's useful to frame it through the lens of when would I absolutely not pursue body composition goals given this other context. and That's one is like performance, like that a serious a fairly serious performance goal in a short-timed domain.
00:57:03
Emily Dow
Yeah, a serious performance goal in a short time domain where injury risk is already like a real real consideration, especially if you haven't run marathons historically.
00:57:11
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:57:14
Emily Dow
um The deficit is going to increase risk of that.
00:57:14
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:57:17
Emily Dow
It's going to increase risk of like getting sick. um All things that are really going to derail performance also. Yeah. But I think other than that, like there are things that we pay attention to.
00:57:28
Emily Dow
So one that I sort of mentioned indirectly is like if somebody's intake is not high enough that we can diet them down without getting to like unhealthy levels with with the deficit and even with like individual macronutrients, like if we're getting too low with fats, for example, that's risky.
00:57:38
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:57:44
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:57:51
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
00:57:52
Emily Dow
um So starting point calorically is one that's oftentimes a hard stop for me. Like we need to focus on this first, um, focus on health first.
00:58:02
Emily Dow
I would say any other like relevant health situation, um, like for example, if someone's recovering from some really serious injury or,
00:58:18
Emily Dow
something to that effect. I've had clients get really sick with like various illnesses that have lasted like weeks of trying to recover from.
00:58:24
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:58:26
Emily Dow
And it does, that is a hard stop on a deficit for me, at least temporarily. um And then you and I both, I think, pay attention during the coaching process to other metrics related to like recovery, sleep, menstrual cycle function.
00:58:41
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm. Sure. Sure.
00:58:43
Emily Dow
Those can all be hard stops as well. If we're seeing a bunch of red flags going off,
00:58:48
Nathan Jenkins
Oh yeah. Yeah. If a woman ever tells me, you know, I have my, my period in a couple months ago, what the, what the fuck, you know, uh, we're stopped.
00:58:53
Emily Dow
none
00:58:55
Nathan Jenkins
We're immediately stopping this. Um, the other one closely, somewhat related to that, uh, postpartum, i immediately postpartum.
00:59:01
Emily Dow
Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:01
Nathan Jenkins
I do not do, I do not do fat loss diet. Like I will absolutely, I have worked with plenty of women who, you know, come to me. i have this arbitrary time, time point of of three months, um,
00:59:12
Nathan Jenkins
and But if there' in if there's but if a woman if if a woman is breastfeeding, a new mom is breastfeeding, then I don't have to do anything.
00:59:17
Emily Dow
hu
00:59:20
Nathan Jenkins
It's a freaking super it's a superpower.
00:59:20
Emily Dow
Right.
00:59:22
Nathan Jenkins
This is most of the time. um just like give the Again, focus on the consistency piece with the diet um and then have them do their physical activity that they are you know with... there based on their prior capacity and physician guidance and all that kind of stuff.
00:59:39
Emily Dow
Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:39
Nathan Jenkins
um Just focus on consistency of the numbers that I factored in, like the the caloric expenditure for breastfeeding. Oh my gosh. Um, it's, it's, it's like, those are the, those are some of the best success stories that I've had. Um, but like, I will not actually do an aggressive diet during that time because the priorities, you know, milk supply and, um, you know, hormonal regulation and all that stuff. So, uh, that's, that's, and that's the only other hard stop that I thought of of. Like, yeah, people, they, like those, I've had lots of those clients come to me, like expecting to like be really aggressive.
01:00:14
Nathan Jenkins
I'm like, Nope, we're not going to do that.
01:00:16
Emily Dow
don't need to.
01:00:16
Nathan Jenkins
So, yeah.
01:00:17
Emily Dow
Well, and I feel like ah the central theme with all of those, just to like unify this for the audience, is that dieting
01:00:23
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
Dieting as a Stressor and Strategic Planning
01:00:23
Nathan Jenkins
we've
01:00:24
Emily Dow
is a physiological stressor.
01:00:27
Emily Dow
ah And when that overlaps with other significant stressors,
01:00:31
Nathan Jenkins
hey
01:00:31
Emily Dow
it can it can become a risky situation and or it can make, it can just render the whole process less successful because there are other priorities that need to be need to be prioritized.
01:00:44
Nathan Jenkins
yeah Yeah. And that's, we're getting in a little bit, this is a good thing too. We're getting a little bit into the art of coaching as a good coach. And there's a lot of coaches, I think that'll be listening to this too. If you're trying to make your way in that space, the art of coaching is recognizing that nutrition and body composition and performance, whatever the goal the client has is one stressor, like you just said, that needs to be fit into the broader context of the other stressors in the client's life.
01:01:09
Nathan Jenkins
And it's some, there are times where that's going to take a ah very high priority and there's times where going to take a lower priority, not to say to to a neglected priority, but not the top priority. Like maybe it's third or fourth.
01:01:19
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm.
01:01:20
Nathan Jenkins
And the coach the job of the coach is to to recognize like, hey, Cheryl, this is maybe Cheryl or not, but you know hey, client, you know we've been working together for a few months now.
01:01:32
Nathan Jenkins
I've kind of noticed this different these different things kind of keep coming up. and you got these goals and they're pretty aggressive. Let's have a conversation about like calibrating those goals and thinking about like which of your various burners that you're managing does this one need to be placed on?
01:01:48
Nathan Jenkins
And that is some wise shit that you can do as a coach. um and and And that's where you really earn your money.
01:01:52
Emily Dow
Yeah. Yeah.
01:01:54
Nathan Jenkins
and earn your reputation for the, again, some some nuggets for the coaches that are listening that are maybe trying to find their way with their clients.
01:02:01
Emily Dow
yeah
01:02:03
Nathan Jenkins
Like, it's not just about getting people shredded, man. It's just not.
01:02:07
Emily Dow
It's about ultimately your job is to set them up for success. And it's very tempting. And I've felt this way many times as like an early coach to just like give the client what they want immediately.
01:02:20
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:02:21
Emily Dow
Want to lose that we're dieting. Like I know how to diet you aggressively. We're going to see weight loss. You're going happy with it. Maybe. But yeah, the art of coaching is recognizing like This person is telling me they want this. What does that actually mean?
01:02:35
Emily Dow
And then i have the conversation. If someone wants to lose body fat and we're planning out like at least roughly a dieting phase, it's maybe going to last like 16 weeks, just give or take.
01:02:46
Emily Dow
I'm like, what are the next four months of your life look like?
01:02:46
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:02:49
Emily Dow
Because maybe it makes sense to start this now. Maybe it makes sense to start this once you're out of the semester from hell that you're in with grad school and we can start during a slightly less crazy time in your life.
01:02:59
Nathan Jenkins
here
01:03:03
Nathan Jenkins
yeah
01:03:03
Emily Dow
And therefore, you're going to be more successful. Therefore, you're going to be happier. And so I think being able, being willing and like comfortable to have those conversations with your client at the beginning can really set the stage in a positive way too.
01:03:17
Nathan Jenkins
Absolutely. Yeah. Just like mapping it out and yeah, to to just really take an honest look at what's in front of them for sure. Um, looking at the time, Emily, we're a little bit over an hour in. Um, so like we want maybe start pivoting towards landing the plane, uh, for Cheryl.
01:03:34
Nathan Jenkins
Um, one of the biggest things that you've, you're pretty well known for, I think at this point, uh, and with your, you know, your presence and the content that you put out. And that's something that I, the message that I've heard from you lot that I just love and respect a lot is, um, the whole thing about like under fueling is like a, it's like a, almost like a,
01:03:56
Nathan Jenkins
ah borderline like as chronic disease is what comes to mind. That's not right. But chronic, it's a chronic issue, chronic condition amongst the general fitness population that follows people like yourself and um people people who like follow, listen to this type of podcast.
The Issue of Under-fueling in Fitness
01:04:11
Nathan Jenkins
How can under fueling in your opinion, undermine both of these goals, performance and body composition?
01:04:19
Emily Dow
Yeah, I think my philosophy ah with all of this is that your Your fitness goals are dependent on a few things.
01:04:31
Emily Dow
um One of them being the adaptations to the training stimulus, training stimuli, if you're that kind of person.
01:04:38
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:04:38
Emily Dow
um Your nutrition is obviously one. And then your recovery kind of feeds into the training adaptation piece. And so if we're chronically under-fueled, we are not going to be able to train as hard.
01:04:56
Emily Dow
We're also not going to be able to recover from that training.
01:04:56
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:04:59
Emily Dow
And therefore, we're not adapting, we're not actually getting as fit as we could from the amount of effort that we're putting in.
01:04:59
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:05:07
Emily Dow
And i think if everyone would just give that a chance for a period of time, like actually fueling themselves appropriately,
01:05:13
Nathan Jenkins
m
01:05:16
Emily Dow
for the amount that they want to train or the amount that they are training. It's such an obvious difference. And that's like my favorite feeling as a coach is like,
01:05:25
Nathan Jenkins
It's crazy. Yeah.
01:05:27
Emily Dow
it's It's so clear. Like when you're paying attention and you're like tracking these things as a client, it's clear as day. You're like, oh shit, I feel like a new person. I didn't know I could do this.
01:05:38
Emily Dow
And that's that is when people like, that's the exponential curve when all of a sudden people's people start improving in their fitness to an extent that they didn't expect.
01:05:38
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:05:44
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:05:49
Emily Dow
And their body composition tends to follow that. Like they aren't uncoupled the way that people think that they are.
01:05:52
Nathan Jenkins
It sure does.
01:05:56
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. That, that, that to me is my biggest observation over the years is when you start feeling for performance, it turns out your body composition improves.
01:06:05
Emily Dow
Yep.
01:06:06
Nathan Jenkins
Um, and it's like, I'm eating more, but I'm getting leaner. Like what the hell, you know? Um,
01:06:11
Emily Dow
Because you're feeling the performance and again, it's not in excess. And that's the piece that like, gets misconstrued.
01:06:17
Nathan Jenkins
Right, right, right. It's not due excess yet.
01:06:19
Emily Dow
It's not to excess. It's enough. It's not too much.
01:06:23
Nathan Jenkins
So let's get into like, I know we're like a little bit late in this podcast, but there's actually a lot of rich science there. So, and I think you might've touched on on a minute ago, but what is it about like fueling adequately that allows for like,
01:06:35
Nathan Jenkins
So yeah so like I don't think anyone's going to question why it is that if you pull adequately, then you perform better, right? But like let's like double down for a second. Why does that result in better body composition?
01:06:48
Emily Dow
Well, the ah i mean the adaptations from the training itself is going to, in theory, result in more muscle. And it's also going to allow you to like expend more energy.
01:07:03
Nathan Jenkins
That's right.
01:07:03
Emily Dow
ah
01:07:03
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:05
Emily Dow
For multiple reasons, like that muscle tissue is more metabolically active. So at baseline, you're going to be spending more energy, but it also means that you're literally going to be moving more and training harder.
01:07:15
Nathan Jenkins
That's right.
01:07:15
Emily Dow
And so the energy expenditure side of the equation goes up kind of in alignment with the intake side of the equation.
01:07:16
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:07:22
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. it's it's It's also the energy expenditure, but also the energy energy expenditure. This is good for the real nerds out there. Energy expenditure per unit time, which is to say power um by by by basic physics definition. You were the physics major, right? So yeah i see I see you like this resonating, right? um the the
01:07:43
Emily Dow
Physics majors for like a month.
01:07:44
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, but like we we apply it we apply it to the human machine. um the The harder that you can work per unit time in a workout is proportioned to the adaptation. no one is That is to say the higher intensity of the workout, the better the adaptation. That it goes back to the extra physiology textbooks from the 1960s.
01:08:03
Nathan Jenkins
That requires fucking fuel, people.
01:08:05
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:08:06
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. And that the adaptation, one of the adaptations is again, in the context of like strength training, if you can like push a higher load faster, you're going to gain more muscle. If it's, if it's a sprint interval, like hard effort type training, CrossFit style, you're going to go faster, harder. You're going to be able to repeat those efforts harder, repeat them more consistently and gain better capacity in that way. If you're an endurance athlete, you're going to run your, whatever is from one to 100 miles faster because you're fueled better.
01:08:36
Nathan Jenkins
And um that the the the multiple signaling feedback mechanisms coalesce on improving body composition, as as it turns out.
01:08:46
Nathan Jenkins
And that's what people just don't, that's just not as as appreciated.
01:08:47
Emily Dow
Yeah.
01:08:50
Emily Dow
It's this like beautiful positive feedback loop where like you feed yourself enough that you have more to give in your training and you have more to give to your training so therefore you get fitter.
01:08:50
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:08:58
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:09:01
Emily Dow
And the fitter you are, the more you can give to your training. And it like it becomes this... the opposite of what people are used to, where they're like spinning their wheels and running themselves on the ground.
01:09:13
Emily Dow
it's it's And like when you feel it for yourself, you're like, this has obviously been the better option all along. And why did I not even realize that it wasn't?
01:09:20
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:09:21
Emily Dow
and
01:09:22
Nathan Jenkins
And listen, i don't know about you, Emily, you're, you're more, you're probably, we both have a pretty good, um, track record of like living this out ourselves. Um, like practicing what we preach, but I will admit a hundred percent for this two or three years ago, i entered a phase of like chronic under fueling and got the leanest I've ever been.
01:09:40
Nathan Jenkins
was walking around like 8% body fat. I thought that was pretty cool. Uh, but my performance was freaking tanking to be honest. Um, and then I've, Yeah. Okay. So fine. I've gained some body fat. I'm up to like, i don't know, between 10 to 15 is where I hover closer, closer to 10 to 15 anyway. But hitting like freaking distant, like I've specialized in five to 10 like mostly 10 K distances. I'm hitting PRS this year at higher body fat.
01:10:07
Nathan Jenkins
and it's too It's because I'm actually like fined like, I had to like embrace that, this this thing that we're sitting here talking about is like, oh, guess what? It turns out I'm i'm like, so so it's not too excessive to the extent that it's hurting the performance. It's higher than like being bodybuilding composition, bodybuilding, like stage lean composition.
01:10:27
Emily Dow
Yeah.
01:10:27
Nathan Jenkins
um Not doing, not hitting that anymore, but like there's this there's a sweet spot there basically. And when you can find that sweet spot, that's that's the unlock, right? That's what we what we you know try to push our clients towards. so
01:10:41
Emily Dow
Yeah. I think it, like, flies in the face of an assumption that exists for a long time where, like, body weight is a hindrance, especially in endurance sports. That's been like the narrative for so long, but I think more and more athletes are kind of coming to realize that this, the healthiest version of their body is the one that's going to perform their best.
01:10:54
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:11:03
Emily Dow
And that happens to like look different depending on the athletes, like genetics and they're just how they exist in the world. But the healthiest version of you is going to perform way better than a more depleted version of you. And Most people I think would agree that the healthiest version of you is also usually the one that looks best, ah like subjectively, very subjectively, regardless what that body fat percentage equates to.
01:11:25
Nathan Jenkins
That's right. Great. 100%. Mm-hmm.
01:11:30
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:11:31
Emily Dow
That's been my experience at least, talking to humans.
01:11:35
Nathan Jenkins
Right. Yeah. um and And that's where they like people find like a sweet spot, too, where they like feel like, OK, I feel like i look I look good here and I perform well here. And um that's where you know that's where we would try to get Cheryl, honestly.
01:11:49
Nathan Jenkins
is like And we don't have a clear cut.
01:11:50
Emily Dow
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:11:52
Nathan Jenkins
I don't think we have a clear cut answer of like, OK, here's exactly how what we do for her. But all of these things that we've been touching on are the things that we would have a conversation with her about from day one. And then that kind of like the other thing about this that I hope people will understand is that if you came to this podcast listening like hoping for an answer, it's not so much that there's a singular answer, but it's the answer lies in that conversation that you have repeatedly and that constant like evaluation of all these things repeatedly over time, right?
01:12:15
Emily Dow
ah here
01:12:19
Emily Dow
Yeah. And yeah, it's, I think we want people to recognize that there is a significant amount of overlap in that Venn diagram.
01:12:30
Emily Dow
And if there are times in your life, like seasons, where you do really want to prioritize one a little bit more than you have been,
01:12:31
Nathan Jenkins
huge
01:12:39
Emily Dow
I tend to prefer like if Cheryl has body comp goals, but also wants to run a marathon at some point in the future, then we take a phasic approach to that. And maybe we, depending on the timeline, maybe we focus on body comp first and then we really focus on fueling for performance heading into the marathon or vice versa.
01:12:54
Nathan Jenkins
yeah yeah yeah
01:12:58
Emily Dow
And so you can, i think it's really important that everyone realizes they can have it all
01:13:05
Nathan Jenkins
hey
01:13:06
Emily Dow
Maybe it's not always at the same time. Maybe sometimes it is.
01:13:09
Nathan Jenkins
Right.
01:13:10
Emily Dow
It's really just about evaluating your situation and what is going to sort of check all those boxes for you.
01:13:13
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:13:18
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, I'm going to ask a hard question. I'm go to invite you slash us to editorialize a little bit. um or like a push to I'm to push us to one side or the other.
01:13:31
Emily Dow
Hmm.
01:13:31
Nathan Jenkins
if you if If forced to pick one, fuel for performance or fuel for body composition, which one is it?
01:13:39
Emily Dow
performance all the way. i think I think the body composition would land in a satisfactory place for almost anyone who's feeling for performance.
01:13:41
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:13:45
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:13:48
Nathan Jenkins
from I think, yeah, I said it was a hard question.
01:13:49
Emily Dow
Appropriately.
01:13:52
Nathan Jenkins
It wasn't. um Right. It's very, it's like very obvious if anybody's followed your content and for the the small handful of you guys who know me, that is exactly the same fucking thing that I've always said.
01:14:05
Nathan Jenkins
It's like, yeah, like it's almost always the answer with except a few, like here's the thing. It's like edge is the the body composition focuses. It really are the edge cases.
Outsourcing Bodybuilding Prep and Personal Interests
01:14:14
Nathan Jenkins
And I know about you, Emily, but I don't really work with, I outsource those to other like niche coaches who specialize in like bodybuilding prep.
01:14:22
Nathan Jenkins
um I don't do that.
01:14:22
Emily Dow
Right.
01:14:23
Nathan Jenkins
I've never prepped anybody for a show and i but don't I've never done one myself. i don't really have interest in that. That's not the sandbox I play in. I love that sandbox. I have great friends in there and I respect them and and learn a lot from them, but that's not that's not us.
01:14:38
Nathan Jenkins
you know that's not ah and And that's not our people for the most part.
01:14:38
Emily Dow
No.
01:14:41
Nathan Jenkins
Even if people think they want to be that, that's not, yeah
01:14:46
Emily Dow
No, and you, like, i also think, like, it's worth, especially for, i see this with a lot of females who find fitness, like, in early adulthood. you tend to find the bodybuilding stuff first.
01:15:00
Emily Dow
And I think almost every girl who's been through that, mean, this is probably true for men too, is like, like there's a little part of their brain that's like, should i should I do a bikini prep?
01:15:10
Emily Dow
I've, I've thought that before.
01:15:11
Nathan Jenkins
Sure.
01:15:11
Emily Dow
And that's like so so opposite to what I actually care about or want.
01:15:12
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:15:15
Emily Dow
And I have no issue with anyone else caring about that or wanting that, of course.
01:15:17
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:15:18
Emily Dow
But yeah, I didn't want that. I just thought I did because it's what all this content was kind of like leading me to believe. So that's also like not something you ever have to pursue.
01:15:24
Nathan Jenkins
A hundred percent.
01:15:29
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, yeah,
01:15:30
Emily Dow
It's a super specialized sport and it should be treated as such.
01:15:32
Nathan Jenkins
yeah.
01:15:35
Emily Dow
And yeah, professionally, that it's not my specialty and I would turn down anyone who has to do it.
01:15:35
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:15:40
Nathan Jenkins
Sure. My mike quickly, my, I'm joking, but my rough equivalent to that is like, I got in into running and therefore i felt, I felt compelled immediately when I got in into running, should I sign up for a marathon?
01:15:52
Emily Dow
Yeah.
01:15:53
Nathan Jenkins
And it's like, there's there's there's there's ah levels to this. I've started to do 5Ks and 10Ks and I'm perfectly happi perfectly happy there. i don't need to do a marathon. And like so many people like get off the couch and decide to do a marathon. like It's these extremes, right?
01:16:07
Nathan Jenkins
um And so, yeah.
Prioritizing Performance for Cheryl
01:16:09
Nathan Jenkins
But coming back to Cheryl, we would probably encourage her, based on the the totality of the goals as we understand them, of her history, of her um constraints and her challenges and the trade-offs that we as we see them, it's probably on balance with like different like seasons and phases being the exception.
01:16:29
Nathan Jenkins
the The horizon that that our eyes are locked on is the performance metrics, right?
01:16:35
Emily Dow
Yes, I would. My like, if I were to play out everything with Cheryl, I would have her focus on performance first.
01:16:41
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:16:44
Emily Dow
And i would say, trust me on this, just commit this amount of time.
01:16:44
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:16:48
Emily Dow
And Almost predictably, she would see in a couple months that by focusing on performance, she was already getting what she wanted from a body comp perspective. But if she didn't, if she got to a point and she's like, I still would like to decrease my body fat percentage by a little bit more.
01:17:04
Emily Dow
Cool. Now we can plan that in a way that's like super healthy and fine. And you have strong experiences that have laid the foundation for that.
01:17:16
Nathan Jenkins
Absolutely. I think that I think that nails it, Dr. Emily. um there are there Is there anything that ah about Cheryl that we haven't covered that we need to address before we wrap up here?
01:17:31
Emily Dow
um
01:17:35
Emily Dow
I don't think, I think we didn't get a ton, it's fine. We didn't get a ton into like the timing um discussion, which if
01:17:40
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
Carbohydrate Distribution Around Training
01:17:44
Emily Dow
if if you're an audience member and you feel like we left you hanging on that,
01:17:44
Nathan Jenkins
We didn't.
01:17:48
Emily Dow
TLDR is it's helpful to center carbs around training. I usually have people aim for like about 60% of their carbs for the day sandwich somehow around training, focus on higher fiber carbohydrates, slightly higher fat meals at other time points throughout the day.
01:17:52
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:18:05
Emily Dow
That's great for satiety.
01:18:07
Nathan Jenkins
yeah
01:18:08
Emily Dow
That's generally how I would suggest approaching things for Cheryl.
01:18:11
Nathan Jenkins
For sure. Yeah. So, so, so yes, when an athlete is in, and this would be Cheryl, including through her performance, sorry, her body composition focused phase tend to, tent we tend to, but we have one of bias carbs around training, fats further away from training, keeping protein steady throughout.
01:18:20
Emily Dow
Okay.
01:18:27
Nathan Jenkins
um Eat roughly every three to five of hours throughout the day with your meals time such that your work you know your workouts are one to three hours after a meal and eat another meal another like in within an hour so after training, blah, blah, blah.
01:18:44
Nathan Jenkins
um those detail like that for the For the everyday person, i don't know what you think, Emily, but for the everyday person, that kind of stuff, can get you can get a little bit bogged down with that.
01:18:54
Nathan Jenkins
right and get it can get
01:18:55
Emily Dow
Yeah.
01:18:57
Nathan Jenkins
you know Oh, I'm going to get 60% of my total carbohydrate intake across my pre-intra and post-workout. That sounds cool, but that's like a lot of like mental load.
01:19:03
Emily Dow
I'm curious.
01:19:06
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:19:07
Emily Dow
That's something I, thank you for saying that because that's something I literally, i don't even bring that conversation up with clients until it's either, it either becomes relevant or they want to get more granular about things.
01:19:09
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:19:14
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:19:19
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:19:21
Nathan Jenkins
Or, or like somebody like Cheryl, she's probably training twice a day sometimes, which you and I both do personally.
01:19:26
Emily Dow
Yeah.
01:19:28
Nathan Jenkins
And that does matter. Like, absolutely.
01:19:30
Emily Dow
Yeah.
01:19:31
Nathan Jenkins
I can tell you what, if I do my CrossFit training in the morning and then run in the afternoon, my freaking carbohydrate timing is, like it's it's life changing.
01:19:43
Nathan Jenkins
If I, and and this if I, if I fuck it up, it is life changing. Um, by the time I pick my son after my, uh, afternoon run, I am depleted. if I don't do it right, I'm depleted.
01:19:53
Nathan Jenkins
I'm a terrible father. And so, and so the carbohydrate timing does, I've, yeah' I'm, I'm goofing around, uh, here at the end of the podcast, but yeah, it can matter quite a bit.
01:20:03
Emily Dow
It can.
01:20:03
Nathan Jenkins
Um,
01:20:04
Emily Dow
And I will say similarly with food quality, like the dietician in me has to say this, um especially if you're in a deficit of any magnitude, that becomes even more important for like society-safe,
01:20:10
Nathan Jenkins
mm-hmm.
01:20:14
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, take multivitamin too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:20:18
Emily Dow
And then also like you're in a deficit deficiency, like nutrient deficiencies become a little bit more likely.
01:20:18
Nathan Jenkins
Mm-hmm.
01:20:25
Emily Dow
um
01:20:26
Nathan Jenkins
yeah a hundred percent when
01:20:26
Emily Dow
Making sure that we're checking our boxes from a micronutrient standpoint, food priorities, especially because i know I talk a lot about like in the performance world, it's okay to rely on like more processed foods, more concentrated sources of sugar.
01:20:30
Nathan Jenkins
yeah take a multivitamin too yeah yeah
01:20:41
Emily Dow
Yes.
01:20:41
Nathan Jenkins
and
01:20:42
Emily Dow
When you're in a deficit, some of those decision, some of that decision, like calculus does shift a bit.
01:20:48
Nathan Jenkins
For sure. For sure.
Overlap of Performance and Composition Goals
01:20:50
Nathan Jenkins
um Yeah, we didn't touch on that too much. but That would be something that would definitely be a conversation with Cheryl.
01:20:54
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm.
01:20:55
Nathan Jenkins
um And yeah, we can probably we can always come back to this. Like this is a central one of your central theses of is feel your body well and basically everything falls into place.
01:21:07
Nathan Jenkins
And from my own understanding of physiology and nutrition and you know but optimizing body composition, the two Basically, the the area the the area the of the overlap of that Venn diagram is larger than think is often talked about or under the perceived to be by the masses.
01:21:24
Emily Dow
Thank
01:21:25
Nathan Jenkins
And that's through no fault of their own. And our mission here with Labratt Radio is to kind of challenge some of the a prevailing narratives, or at least at least our little attempt here in this corner of the internet to give a maybe a different perspective or maybe ah a deeper perspective where like obviously we can't get into this one, like you know a carousel post on an Instagram, although our fucking carousel posts rock with 25 references or so a piece.
01:21:54
Nathan Jenkins
And you're...
01:21:54
Emily Dow
We put a lot of time in this.
01:21:56
Nathan Jenkins
you're um your classic three minute reels, yeah this long hopefully this longer form treatment of the topics um is is is helpful.
01:22:08
Emily Dow
Yeah. The Venn diagram is almost a circle with performance and body composition. and So there's like little there's like little outlier variables on either side, but almost a circle.
01:22:14
Nathan Jenkins
I would say so, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.
01:22:20
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Cheryl's Progress and Enjoyment
01:22:25
Nathan Jenkins
So in conclusion, Cheryl is now been working with, with Emily for, let's say, let's say six to nine months and she's jacked and she's in lean and also fast as fuck boy.
01:22:39
Nathan Jenkins
And she's strong and she's winning high rocks.
01:22:39
Emily Dow
Mm-hmm.
01:22:42
Nathan Jenkins
her She's winning a high rocks, um,
01:22:46
Nathan Jenkins
uh, hierarchs Nashville, which is the one I'll probably do in December. Um, uh, just to throw some things there. So, uh, by, essentially by focusing on performance for the most part and letting body composition fall into place.
01:23:02
Emily Dow
And she feels like she looks the part and she did it without feeling like shit.
01:23:04
Nathan Jenkins
yes she Yeah. She, she, she feels good.
01:23:08
Emily Dow
Life is more fun when you approach things this way, in my opinion.
01:23:14
Nathan Jenkins
Awesome. Okay. That was episode two. Take us home, Emily.
Future Episodes and Listener Engagement
01:23:20
Emily Dow
take us home what am I supposed say um this is only episode two so we have many we have many coming um but if this is content that you enjoy please subscribe please share this episode with people who you think it might be relevant to or just share it with anyone regardless of that
01:23:23
Nathan Jenkins
Close us out.
01:23:43
Emily Dow
Um, also we will be implementing these like case studies depth, like always.
01:23:43
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah.
01:23:51
Emily Dow
So if you have suggestions for those, you can also submit them to us and we would be happy to consider them. Um, with the exception, like sometimes we get some crazy, crazy, like one-off questions.
01:24:00
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah. And right now as.
01:24:05
Nathan Jenkins
hmm.
01:24:08
Emily Dow
very detailed questions that just won't apply to most people. So.
01:24:12
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, you're you're you're very hyper-specific individual, if it's about you as an individual. Maybe, maybe not. But like general, cu like the the good questions are like broadly applicable.
01:24:18
Emily Dow
yeah
01:24:23
Nathan Jenkins
right As of right this second, as we're recording this, we have not published anything yet. We're not exactly sure how to submit those questions. But that maybe there's a mechanism in the comment section. And i can say I think it's safe to say, Emily, that there will be an Instagram account at LabRatRadio.
01:24:37
Emily Dow
yeah
01:24:40
Nathan Jenkins
I think it is. I actually don't know, but it'll be it'll be tagged in the show notes. There'll be an Instagram account associated with this podcast. You can DM that Instagram account. And honestly, it'll probably be mostly me handling that. this I'm the secretary of this of this operation here.
01:24:55
Nathan Jenkins
um But yeah, but but yeah we'll see we we will see your question and we will consider it for future episodes if you guys are into this stuff.
01:24:55
Emily Dow
Yeah.
01:25:02
Nathan Jenkins
So we appreciate it.
01:25:03
Emily Dow
Yeah, I warn you of DMing me specifically because I'm terrible with falling up with all of them. So...
01:25:10
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, don't DM.
01:25:10
Emily Dow
Definitely be on lookout for this podcast.
01:25:11
Nathan Jenkins
Do not d d DM or DM me personally at Dr. Nathan Jenkins. You can DM me or the Labratt Radio, but do not DM Emily, please. How about that? Yeah.
01:25:20
Emily Dow
I don't hate you guys. I just can't keep up.
01:25:23
Nathan Jenkins
Yeah, it's too much. Okay. I think that's a good place to stop for this episode. Thank you guys for listening and we will catch you on the next one.
01:25:30
Emily Dow
Laura's out.
01:25:31
Nathan Jenkins
Peace out.