Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jane Williams, this is the Red Eye Podcast, produced at the studios of Vancouver Cooperative Radio. In this episode, Lorraine Chisholm talks with Bashir Mohammed about the response of some conservative political leaders in Canada to the killings in Christchurch.
Speaker: In the week following the murder of 50 Muslims by a white supremacist terrorist in Christchurch, many Canadians are questioning the commitment of some Canadian politicians to an inclusive and multicultural society. The shooter published a white supremacist manifesto called The Great Replacement and took inspiration from the convicted killer of six Muslim men massacred in Quebec City in 2017.
Speaker: Within the manifesto, several anti -immigrant sentiments were expressed, including hate speech against migrants, white supremacist rhetoric, and calls for all non -European immigrants in Europe who are claimed to be, quotes, invading this land to be removed. Politicians of all stripes in Canada issued their condolences to the victims' families. But some, like conservative leader Andrew Scheer, failed to name the terrorist and Islamophobic nature of the event.
Speaker: In Alberta, Jason Kenney's hand -picked candidate, Kaylan Ford, resigned last Monday after private messages mirroring the themes of white supremacists were revealed. We reached independent journalist Bashir Mohammed, who is based in Edmonton. Thursday, he gave the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Week keynote presentation at McEwen University. Hello, Bashir. Hello. Thanks for having me.
Speaker: Many politicians in Canada have expressed their grief, their outrage and solidarity with Muslims following their horrific terrorist attacks in Christchurch. But Andrew Scheer, the leader of the Conservative Party, tweeted a statement that made many people angry. What was wrong with that tweet? I mean, he didn't use the word Muslim and he didn't use the word Islamophobia. And that's pretty disappointing because he's not naming what the problem is, but also
Speaker: his own party and his own candidates do have a history of making Islamophobic statements or aligning with figures that speak very negatively about Muslims. So I think that's what caused that reaction. And personally, that's why I was very disappointed in that. He did end up putting an updated statement out after the outcry. But the very first thing he put out, which I think we should be evaluating him for, didn't include those key and important aspects.
Speaker: Sheer has also been criticized for associating with right -wing racists. Tell us about some of the people on his team. Yeah, I mean, when you look at his team, you have his campaign director Hamish Martel. Hamish Martel was a national director for Rebel Media, and I guess to give some context for that, they are a very far -right media outlet that pushes white supremacist conspiracy theories like white genocide, or as you mentioned in your introduction,
Speaker: the idea of there being a great replacement, and I guess to provide context for that, that basic idea is that white people are being replaced in North America, but also Europe, and they're being replaced by Muslims and other people that are coming in. So those articles and all that stuff were very crucial to Rebel actually starting up. There's this idea that he left during the time that stuff got pretty wild, but that's not the case. Anyways,
Speaker: 25 % of conservative MPs have appeared on rebel media. In addition, a number still associate with those figures. So that's Hamish Martel. He basically helped create that organization. And then you have Stephen Taylor, who was his digital director during his leadership campaign and still involved in the party. And he was very active on a white supremacist forum called Medi Canada. And I'm sure we can talk more about that a bit later.
Speaker: Turning to Alberta, Kaylan Ford is a UPC candidate handpicked by Jason Kenney. She resigned after some deeply problematic messages that she posted were leaked to press progress. What happened? Yeah, so those messages were in a private message to a Muslim conservative activist who ran as a candidate, I think federally. But anyways, after the Charlottesville rally, there were like exchanging messages. And in those messages,
Speaker: she's basically talking about how she's disappointed at white people being replaced, and she talks about the demographic misplacement. So basically the exact same talking point as the Chrysler shooter, but also the exact same talking point as the whole white genocide theory. Furthermore, she also talks about how
Speaker: white supremacist terrorists are vilified more in media compared to terrorists who belong to extremist groups such as ISIS, for example. So she resigned that night. So the story broke at 10. She resigned that night. Kenny put out a statement the next day and then the story basically died. But she's still like pretty active in Alberta political discourse just yesterday. She put out a thread talking about how she was targeted. By the way, she still hasn't apologized for those comments.
Speaker: And in addition, if you look at that thread, and you look at the people who liked that thread, two of them are current UCP candidates. Another one ran for leadership of the UCP, and there's a number of UCP donors there. So it makes you question whether or not they're legitimately addressing this as a serious problem, or whether or not they're just treating it as something that needed to happen politically. That's what you needed to resign.
Speaker: Is that the first UPC candidate to be exposed for statements aligning with white supremacist or Islamophobic views? No, it's interesting because there's, there's so much, uh, I guess like one interesting example is Cindy Ross. She was running, uh, in, I forget what writing it was, but this was in 2015, she made comments about a mosque being built in her community. And she said that this was like jailing the bank robbers in the bank vault.
Speaker: And the interesting thing about that is the UCP didn't disqualify that candidate. Instead, they said that people's views change. But the thing was, this was in 2015. And it was only a few years after that these comments came to light. And this person's pretty old. So it makes you wonder, it's not like they're 12 years old and they said this, and then they're 50, and now they're running. They were developed humans who came to these views, and it makes you question whether or not they actually changed.
Speaker: So that's another candidate, and then there's several others. I actually have a running list that's going. And yeah, I think by my count, there's about six or seven UCP candidates that have made Islamophobic statements. And these are vetted candidates, so candidates who have gone through their screening process.
Speaker: Now we also saw racist and xenophobic undercurrents in the United We Roll convoy last year that showed up in Ottawa. What's Kenny's record where they and the Canadian yellow vesters are concerned? Well, I mean like with Kenny's record, he supported the United We Roll protests, but I guess like the most, I think if we go federally, it's very stark because Andrew Scheer, so when they came to Ottawa, Andrew Scheer spoke at their rally, and at the same rally, Faith Goldie spoke at it.
Speaker: And Faith Goldie is a white supremacist who pushes the whole great replacement theory. But they spoke at the same event. And he did not condemn her. Nor was he really challenged by media, too. I mean, you've seen, like, for example, with the NDP federal leader, Jagmeet Singh, he, like, faced constant, like, media uproar for appearing at an event with somebody who had ties to an extremist group.
Speaker: Now, that's fair. Like, it's fair that those questions are raised, but it makes you question whether or not it's being applied equally, especially considering how Scheer has deeper ties. Like, he's been interviewed by Goldie, for example. And I think a large part of it speaks to a feeling of our political leaders, but also a feeling to those who cover these issues. I mean, this interview
Speaker: I think is a good step because we're having this serious conversation, but I don't think, I think it's too late having the conversation, but it's good we're having it now. But I think it's something that needs to continue happening. We need to treat this as a serious discussion.
Speaker: Well, let's get into that a bit. You've criticized pundits and political figures for boosting and legitimizing those who inspired the Christchurch shooter. And I know you tweeted a statement similar to that, and I was very struck by that. So tell us what you mean by them legitimizing those who inspired the Christchurch shooter. Yeah, so I'll just give one example that I think really speaks to that point. And it's Kerry Dyott, who's an MP in Edmonton.
Speaker: So right after the Quebec mock shooting, he posed for a photo with Goldie. And the interesting thing about Goldie is right after the Quebec mock shooting, she actually said it was a false flag and that the attack was made to draw sympathy towards Muslims. So she, so she did all this and then she has the history of articles that make white supremacist points. So Kerry Diat takes a photo with her, posted on his own Twitter account, and he says, thanks for making media great again. And then he takes Faith Goldie.
Speaker: And like, they're both in the photo together. If you go on his Twitter account right now and just search Faith Goldie on his account, you'll see that photo. But interesting is, uh, when journalist asked him questions about it, he refused to, uh, to answer. He just didn't put out statements, which like concerns me because that was right after the Quebec mock shooting. Like I think that deserves an answer. And I think that journalist should be camped out in front of his office until he gets an answer.
Speaker: But aside from that, he's faced no consequences. I was watching question period the other day and it was really disturbing to see him sitting in this chair clapping along like nothing happened. If sheer and if people in that movement, the conservative movement, want to take this seriously and want to repair that relationship, then Kerry DeOtte is just one example of somebody that they need to kick out of their caucus.
Speaker: get him to actually apologize like a sincere apology or at the very, very, very, very least take down that tweet, which is unfortunately still up. So I think that's the starkest reaction, especially considering the connection to what happened in New Zealand. The fact that both of those were mock shootings.
Speaker: I think a really big thing that's coming up for me is that we have, you know, Canadian politicians who are using these tropes like, you know, make Canadian media great again or, you know, make Canada great again. And they're not seeing the connection between spouting these views and terrorist attacks that kill people. And I'm wondering whether we really need to start explicitly saying, hey, there is a connection here. These are on two ends of a spectrum.
Speaker: Yeah, we do. A hundred percent. I mean, like the interesting thing is those dog whistles. So I guess the 2015 election is really interesting because it was really run on a lot of those dog whistles. For example, there was the whole discussion around banning the niqab. In addition, like especially during citizenship ceremonies, I think that was the context for that. In addition, there was the whole debate over the barbaric cultural practices hotline. And it's interesting too, because I remember
Speaker: I think the Mulcair, when he was leader, took a fairly principled stance on Linda Caban. And around that time is actually when they started tanking in the polls. So it's interesting because they know that this stuff gets them votes. Like they know exactly what they're doing. Are you familiar with the Southern strategy that the Republicans use in the US? Because I think that's very similar. Tell us about that. Yeah. So the Southern strategy, it was coined by a Republican political operative and it was the idea that they could no longer be outright racist.
Speaker: like they could no longer say the n -word during campaign speeches or they could no longer be explicit. So they started focusing on things such as busing rights or voting ID laws and everything. And they knew that they weren't explicitly talking about black people, but the effect was that these are all programs that affect black people. And when you say these things, voters will know what you're talking about. And that strategy was very successful for them. You see it also
Speaker: with the war on drugs and how that's been applied. So politicians know exactly what they're doing. And I think what needs to be done is that they need to be held more accountable. I think a problem, though, is there is a huge lack of diversity within our political class, but also our media class where, for example, a lot of these questions that need to be asked
Speaker: I don't think people are able to generate them because they either don't have the lived experience or they're not that aware of these issues. Jason Kenny, 2016, tweeted to Faith Goldie that you're always welcome in Alberta. Now, when he responded to that, he actually said the way he countered it was by saying that this was before she kind of went off the rails. But if you go a bit deeper, you can see before that tweet, there is at least four articles that talked about Muslims raping people.
Speaker: but also talked about white genocide. So that's what I mean. There's not really that kind of follow -up and there's not really that accountability. Now New Zealand Prime Minister Ardern has called for an international effort to root out Islamophobia and white supremacy. What should we be doing here in Canada? I mean you've talked about the media and politicians. What do we need to do to really step this up and look at the seriousness of this problem?
Speaker: For sure, I guess the main thing that should feel everything else is we should draw a red line. Any association with these characters, like people who build those views, should be completely condemned. That should be the very first red line. Asides from that, I think that there needs to be more coverage and more, well, I guess we need to understand the problem. The first step is solving a problem is by understanding that there is one. So the feds, I think it was actually before
Speaker: New Zealand. I think it was a week before they announced funding to research right wing terrorism. That wasn't that much. I think it was a few hundred thousand dollars. But that's a good first step. I guess to give a personal example. When I was a student I was a research assistant for a project funded by Public Safety Canada. And if you look at that whole initiative I was going through what studies were funded and only two I think out of 15 or 20 actually focused on right wing terrorism for example.
Speaker: And that was before the Quebec Mosque shooting. So A, we need research. We need to seriously see this as a problem. The other thing I think is media training. I think in Canada, we didn't really see this, especially within our media class. They haven't really, or journalists, haven't seen this as that big of a threat. Or if they did, it was seen as an American thing. So I think there needs to be more awareness where they need to look through and understand what these groups are and what they believe in and how they spread their ideologies.
Speaker: So groups such as the Proud Boys, the 3%, which is very active in Alberta, the Soldiers of Odin. Like if a journalist doesn't know what those words are or that they are groups, I think that needs to be changed. And finally, amongst our politicians, we should not let them get away with this association. And if they have association with these groups in the past, they need a full and sincere apology. They can't just sit in their office if they do.
Speaker: Journalists should be camped out in front of their office. And in fact, if nothing happens with Kerry Deodd in the next couple weeks, I'm going to take some vacation days and sit in front of his office and try to get an answer on the record.
Speaker: I mean, I think those are very strong suggestions and I encourage people to really respond to them. How can ordinary people, you know, people who don't necessarily have institutional power, how can they step up and redouble their efforts to fight white supremacy and Islamophobia in Canada? Well, it goes back to they know this stuff works because for the general public, enough people buy into the dog whistles.
Speaker: So they counter that a lot of people, good people, the people who may be listening to this, need to reach out to their politicians and let them know that this is unacceptable. Their politicians don't have to be the ones who made these statements. They could be politicians who condemn Islamophobia, politicians who condemn what supremacy. But if we continue reinforcing to them that this is unacceptable, then they're in a position to push back when a colleague or someone from another party or
Speaker: you know, they're in a situation where they can push back. They know that they have a backing. So I think the number one thing is write whoever your MP is, write whoever your MLA is, write whoever your city councilor is even, because this stuff affects all levels and let them know that this is not okay. I think that's something anybody can do if they're worried about their name being linked to it. You know, they can always call, I used to,
Speaker: work in a political office and I could tell you phone calls are tracked and public opinion is tracked. So just show that this stuff is unacceptable. I think that's something anybody can do. Bashir, I really want to thank you so much for joining us today. I know it's been a really tough week. Norris, thanks for having me on. I think this is a really important discussion. I've been speaking with Bashir Mohammed. Bashir is a freelance journalist based in Edmonton.
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