Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to today's episode of Red Eye. I'm Jane Williams. Over the summer, mo we're bringing you some of the highlights of our 2025-26 season, which wrapped up in mid-May.
Speaker: We're going to be back with our brand new fall season in September. Our first live radio broadcast will be on September 19th on Vancouver Cooperative Radio CFRO 100.5 FM and streaming live at coopradio.org slash red eye.
Speaker: Podcasts of interviews from that show will be posted the following week. On the podcast today, I speak with transportation activist Carter Lavin about his new book for organizers, If You Want to Win, You've Got to Fight.
Speaker: It's hard to challenge the dominance of cars in our society, but it is possible, and there have been many important victories. In his new book, If You Want to Win, You Gotta Fight, transportation activist Carter Lavin shares strategies about how to create the change we want to see in our communities.
Speaker: Whether it's more protected bike lanes, improved bus service, or safer streets for pedestrians, Carter provides a comprehensive toolbook of campaign tactics and advocacy tips.
Speaker: He is co-founder of the Transbay Coalition and has helped lead and study over 100 advocacy campaigns across the United States. And Carter Levin joins me today from Oakland. Hello, Carter. Hi, Jane. Thanks for having me.
Speaker: It's really great to have you on the show. i was interested to see in that first chapter in the book, you make the point that politics is not a dirty word. Now, usually that would be a given in a book on activism. So why did you decide to make it explicit?
Speaker: I mean it explicit because there's a lot of people who have a hard time with politics and a lot of people specifically in the transportation space, whether that's street safety, transit, or biking, who have a great level of discomfort with politics. Maybe they view that as something for other people or they wish politics could just go away and their life would be so much better if we didn't have to do with politics.
Speaker: However, politics literally is just how individuals and society interact with each other. It is the act of individuals and society shaping each other. So there is no life of transportation without politics because how we move around in the world impacts other people and – topic of street safety, like very literally impacts when you're talking about, oh, I want a speed bump in my neighborhood. So yeah, you want to literally impact the lives of other people. You want them to slow down and change. That is inherently political. And so for folks who have a discomfort with this, they just want to win, but they don't want to fight.
Speaker: a big thing that happens is they lose a lot. And so chapter one of the book, really just focuses on helping people get comfortable with this, helping people accept this truth that transportation issues are a political struggle and that if we want to win, we do have to fight and that embracing politics, maybe you embrace it with your nose pinched, but you need to embrace it because it's hard to win at something if you're not really trying at it.
Speaker: So what audience did you have in mind when you were writing the book? Yeah, my audience for this book is everyone from, i would say, ages maybe 15 90 or so who thinks, hey, I would like my community to be easier to get around outside of a car, whether they want to bike, scooter, skateboard, walk, use a wheelchair, use a power chair, get on the bus, get on a tram, get on a high speed rail. anything like that.
Speaker: And for whatever reason, some people like doing this because they like the community to be more engaged with each other, more friendly, kind of that old time traditional feeling of walkable communities. Some people come to this from climate. Some people come to this from our racial and economic justice. This book is for them, as well as people who have been doing this for a long time. The world is fortunately filled with people who have been putting in this work for a long time.
Speaker: And as you and many of your listeners know, very rarely does someone learn about activism kind of soup to nuts, start to finish in a controlled classroom setting. Often people learn about activism when they you know step into some campaign or help out or see it in the news.
Speaker: And so people's learnings are often very chaotic or have a couple of gaps in the process. And this book is there to help veteran organized experience organizers as well as fresh faces. And it's been an extreme honor hearing from teenagers who've been enjoying the book, hearing from seniors and people who've been doing this for decades and said, oh, you know thank you. But Inside Outside Game really solidified stuff that kind of thought I knew, but I never really just saw it. And it's just wonderful seeing people take the book and put it to action.
Speaker: Now, you write that communities in the US, and I know this to be true in Canada too, consistently fight over relatively minor proposed changes to the transportation status quo.
Speaker: Why is it such a hot button issue for people? I think it's a hot button issue in large part because what we do impacts others and what changes impacts others.
Speaker: And in a lot of people's lives in the United States, in Canada, in other countries, people are in a hard spot. you know Rents are higher, wages are lower, people are in just a rough position all around. And whether someone is economically secure or not, there's this feeling in a lot of communities of precariousness, of uncertainty.
Speaker: And for a lot of folks, change can be scary because if the change is coming from not them, that means something's happening to them, not for them. And so a key part as an organizer to be successful is to work with community, talk with folks, help people understand that this is something that's not happening to them. This is something that is happening with them, for them, not just to them.
Speaker: Because if someone's saying, look, my life, I have a million concerns in my day. i don't really think about what's happening in transportation. I don't think about what's happening on my street that much. Occasionally, some maniac drives really quickly and I get mad for five seconds and then I move on with my day. What do you mean you want to redo my entire street?
Speaker: And I think this also stems from a larger level of distrust of government or distrust of systems or distrust of large things happening in the world and who's going to be take care of you. And I think one thing that is really amazing about what we get to do in the transportation space is we are making people's lives better.
Speaker: We are making people's lives safer. We are saving lives. We are saving them money. We're saving them time. We're cleaning their air. We're helping people out. And It's demonstrably true. And so a big thing is just how do we help people understand that this is happening? How do we help people enact their vision? And I think a really big part to your question about this all being so controversial is there's plenty of times in a person's day, a person who might otherwise not think about transportation issues, there's plenty of times in that person's day where transportation issues are their number one concern. Generally, it's when they're crossing a street. That's the moment when they're very aware of how everyone's driving terribly and how dangerous cars are and how big cars are these days. And so an interesting thing about transportation advocacy is it is something that impacts everyone's lives all the time.
Speaker: a lot of times, though, at like very key moments throughout a day. There's the you leave your house, you cross the street, you maybe even park your car and you cross the street, that type of thing. And so a big part of being successful is recognizing that people, generally speaking, don't really identify as a car driver, much like not everyone who rides a bus identifies as a bus rider.
Speaker: And so the question is, how do we help people, regardless of how they identify, recognize that this is for them, that this better future we're helping build is something that we want to do with them, something that we want to do for them?
Speaker: Now, you have a great quote in the book from bike activist Michael Kelly, who's from Kansas City. And he says, advocacy is a team sport. Nothing happens because of me. It happens because of we. So what have you learned over the years about how to work with people on a shared goal?
Speaker: Yeah, I think a big part about working with others on a shared goal, whether it's an advocacy or business or social life, things like that, is having a strong understanding of what that shared goal is.
Speaker: You people are diverse. They have a lot that they want to do. And so, you know, your top goal might be getting a bus lane on a road or getting a bench for your bus stop. And you might work with other people to find tension because, well, they have a couple of other priorities as well.
Speaker: And so a key part to working well with others, I find, is being very clear with yourself about what are your priorities, actually articulating them to yourself. So it's not just this like kind of nebulous cloud of things that you want in the world.
Speaker: And when you're working with others, recognize what are the things you actually have in common? What are the things you actually want in common? And keeping a focus on what are we here to do together? What is the point of this? And that's not necessarily transactional, I think of it as focused. Because one of the easiest things in the world to find is disagreement. There's a million things to disagree about, and there's a million things to agree about.
Speaker: And some people, I think, have a tendency to look for disagreement and cultivating that skill of looking for agreement, of looking for, okay, how do we take that one step forward here?
Speaker: is really essential to working together collaboratively. And the other big part is recognizing that none of us are perfect. None of us have all the time and the resources and money or any of the things that we would like.
Speaker: And so having grace for each other, having that understanding of like, oh, whoops, someone left the flyers Someone didn't do this thing. Or I had a typo in the email. a big part of working together is recognizing That we are kind of imperfect beings striving to make society a little bit better for everybody.
Speaker: And that none of us have the level of support or security that we truly want. And so I find that really helpful because there are times where it's like, wow, that coalition partner is really just in a bad mood or not really being that productive or...
Speaker: Not responding to an email or it's like, yeah, you know, they probably have a million other things going on in their life. And so being this force of positivity, of openness, of change and kind of focus on progress, I find it so essential to building coalitions.
Speaker: And lastly, i think a key part to working with others is recognizing what the work actually is. you know So you have to know what you want, know how to just work together and kind of be chill. But lastly, like knowing what the work is, because there is so much to do, and recognizing, okay, how are we going to create a bunch of activities together to move a mayor or a premier or someone like that to make the decision? Because otherwise, if you don't have a clear plan or you if you can't create a clear plan with others, you're going to have a lot of conflict because some of your allies are going to say, well, why should we –
Speaker: go to a rally or why should we host this event or why should I send out that email or any of these things? And it's like, well, you have to be able to say, well, we're doing this because that leads to this other action, which leads to this third thing, which leads to that goal that unites us.
Speaker: So recognizing that we're all imperfect, recognizing that there are steps that we all need to take to make change and understanding what those are, as well as being intentional about collaborating and focusing on your shared goals.
Speaker: Now, you talk to transportation advocates around the U.S. What were some of the common themes that you came across in those conversations? Yeah, it was a great honor in writing the book was interviewing dozens and dozens of activists across the United States about this. And honestly, one of the hardest parts of the book writing process was the part where i had to stop interviewing people and just write the dang thing. I really could have just kept on those interviews forever.
Speaker: But something that really consistently came up was this sort of sense of We as this group got together to do this one thing. and while doing this one thing, we realized there was this other thing happening. So we figured out how to focus on both A and B. At the meantime, we got all these new friends and all these new people on board.
Speaker: And that enabled us to start doing this whole other thing, this option C, this program, this event, this get together, what have you. And we ended up picking up a victory on D and like all this kind of big garden of activities. Like that kept coming up over and over and over again that that people set out with intention and they pursue that intention and they can achieve that intention.
Speaker: And that in your organizing work, you will often find other things to work on. You know, my favorite example I come back to over and over again is in a lot of street safety advocacy, you can end up working on fire code because ah fire code, at least in the United States,
Speaker: often has a lot to do with how roads are shaped. Very rarely does someone come into street safety advocacy with the excitement. It's like, gee, shucks, I'm so excited to work on fire code. But you tend to find yourself saying, ah, okay, well, to fix this big problem, I need to work on this thing. And so it was so cool seeing you know people from big states, small states, rural communities, urban centers, suburbs, you know small towns kind of have this like, oh, advocacy is, yes, you might have a campaign or you get there to help a community, but It really grows on itself and you're really making this like big ecosystem, which the book helps walk people through.
Speaker: Because lastly, a large theme of this is like there is no ending. There's no part where people say, well, we did all the advocacy. We set all the policy. We're done.
Speaker: Everything's set. like That never happens. There's no end, which does mean – It's important to set up your organizing such a way that it will continue on and that you know maybe you didn't win that thing you wanted for this year. Okay, keep pushing. You can win the next year. like There's no point where they say, okay, there's no more metro extensions or bus lines or anything like that. There's no point where it ends.
Speaker: And so if you want to make a five-year plan, go for it. You want to make a 20-year plan, have fun. And I think it was very cool seeing all these stories where people like, whether it was the Detroit Greenway or the Atlanta Beltline or all these advocates who kind of started out doing one thing, had a long plan, and then won a bunch of things, small, medium, large in the meantime.
Speaker: Now, you have some advice at the end of the book about managing the emotional toll of organizing, even if it was a successful campaign, when you get to the end of that campaign. What are some things you think people need to do or consider at that point?
Speaker: This is a great question. And to be very blunt, it is something I personally struggle with. I am such a, well, that campaign's over. Good thing I have another five campaigns lined up because i really like the stuff. Like once you get good at it and build these habits, it is very easy for it to continue on. Which means taking intentional pauses and being intentional about what you want to do is so important because it is so easy to maybe you win a bike lane or you lose a bike lane, but now you know a bunch of people and a bunch of people know you as the person who knows about the bike lane stuff. And so it's easy for that to snowball into other activities.
Speaker: And when it comes to finding rest or holding back on burnout, a really big thing is recognizing what your personal capacity is. And some people have more energy than others. Some people have more time than others. Some people like this stuff more than others.
Speaker: And the other part about it is recognizing which of this work do you enjoy? Yeah. you I, for example, hate PDFs that are longer than, don't know, four pages. And in the transit world, there's a lot of 300-page reports. And i love all my allies and friends who will happily read through that. And I say, hey, here's a giant PDF or here's this report that came out. Can you give me like the super short version?
Speaker: And they'll say, oh, well, the short version is, and here's several paragraphs, like, no, no, okay, the short version is things are bad. They're like oh, things are bad. It's like, okay, cool. Well, the thing I like doing is getting a whole bunch of people into action and helping people go from watching on the sidelines to jumping in. And so recognizing that as part of burnout or the stress cycle of the advocacy work that there are things that you will have an easier time doing than other things. You have strengths, and that's fine. You have weaknesses, and that's fine. You will burn yourself out more if you do the things that you really struggle with a lot. And so spending your time on the things where you're better at and can work in coalition where you can focus on your strengths and other people can work on their strengths.
Speaker: But lastly, i think there's this the fact that you this doesn't end, there's never going to be a part in anyone's advocacy where someone says, hey, congratulations, you're done, you did it, you're good. like You get to take a break.
Speaker: You've achieved everything you've ever wanted. like there's There's just never that point. And That's kind of a cool thing, but that does mean that people need to know how to self-regulate, especially because this work is very poorly paid. So if you are in a position to donate to advocacy groups in your area, please do. Having resources does help in terms of avoiding burnout.
Speaker: But kind of for people to recognize, like what role do you want to play? What cadence you want to do it in? And what's the amount? With also, and there's a great quote from ah an advocate in Indiana, in the Midwest, he talked a lot about seasonality to this.
Speaker: You know, that there are some times where you really do want to overclock yourself and work a million hours and you say, oh, Sunday morning at 6 a.m., that'd be a great time to do this thing because it really matters. And there's some times it's like getting off the couch, don't feel like doing that and kind of recognizing that.
Speaker: These are cycles. This is this ecosystem of activity. And so when it's your winter of advocacy to rest and recharge, do that. And when's your time to really do a whole bunch of stuff and have that kind of frenetic pace, go do that as well. The big thing is just making sure that the door is always open and that people are always connected so that the things never just fall apart or dissolve.
Speaker: Well, it's a great book, Carter, and there's lots in there for everybody to learn. Thanks so much. Thank you, Jane, for having me. And yeah, hopefully folks can check out the book. I've been speaking with Carter Lavin. His new book is called If You Want to Win, You've Got a Fight. It's published by Island Press, an imprint of Princeton University Press.
Speaker: On February 19th, Carter is going to be talking about the book at a webinar for the Vancouver Transportation Group Movement. And you can register for that at movementyvr.ca.
Speaker: You've been listening to the Red Eye Podcast, produced by an independent media collective based in Vancouver. If you enjoyed this episode, it would be great if you left a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people to find us.
Speaker: Also, please consider sharing this episode with a friend or telling someone about our podcast. To keep up with the show, you can subscribe to Red Eye wherever you listen to your podcasts. And you can follow us on Blue Sky at Red Eye Radio.
Speaker: I'm Jane Williams. Thanks for listening.
