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/soft skills: the secret to efficiency
46 Plays3 months ago
Are soft skills the secret weapon of high-performing technologists? In this episode, we sit down with Aaron Tyler, Senior Staff Consultant at Callibrity and a Full-Stack & iOS Polyglot Programmer, to explore how mastering soft skills can sharpen technical execution, improve collaboration, and elevate engineering teams to new levels of efficiency.
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Transcript
The Importance of Team Building and Communication
00:00:01
Speaker
A lot of these soft topics, team building, crucial conversations, I think a lot of people, especially engineers, you know, technologists, think of it as just fluffy stuff.
00:00:15
Speaker
It doesn't matter. I think that we need to change that mindset. Teams that work better together produce better results. Talking about teamwork isn't about trust falls. It's real work.
00:00:26
Speaker
and its real benefit that can not only sharpen the performance of your team, but can also sharpen your technical skills.
Introduction to 'Forward Slash' Podcast
00:00:50
Speaker
Welcome to the Forward Slash, where we lean into the future of IT. I'm your host, Aaron Chesney, with my beautiful co-host, James Carman. So, James, today we're going to be talking about being an effective consultant.
00:01:03
Speaker
And, you know, I was thinking about this, and I was trying to think of, like, effective teams and that kind of thing. I'm like, you know, bees are very effective. And I'm like, why is that? And I'm like, oh, you know what? It's because they're always on their good behavior.
00:01:19
Speaker
So, or best behavior. it behavior? Okay. Yeah. I'm going to put your button down there. Okay. So give me a silver star for that one. Yeah.
00:01:30
Speaker
Who's that?
Meet Aaron Tyler: Consultant and Irish Dance Enthusiast
00:01:31
Speaker
um So today we have with us Aaron Tyler, who is one of our consultants at Caliberty. He is a graduate of Purdue University. So don't hold that against him.
00:01:44
Speaker
He may have his head up in space.
00:01:49
Speaker
ah yeah He's been a full stack developer for 25 years, an iOS developer for 15 of those, and a consultant for the last 14 years. He also went back to Purdue because he didn't get enough the first time to be an adjunct professor.
00:02:02
Speaker
And he's also been a coding boot camp instructor as well. So welcome, Aaron. You have the best name in the whole wide world. um And we always come first alphabetically.
00:02:17
Speaker
Two of the best names. which is Which is great sometimes, but I don't always want to be fished. Yeah, you know my grandfather used to tell me never trust a man with two first names.
00:02:28
Speaker
sir
00:02:30
Speaker
But we're going to Look over that today. We're goingnna we're going to trust you. We'll look past that for you. Yeah, we'll look past that. it's It's more of a ah ah suggestion than a rule.
00:02:44
Speaker
if If it matters, Tyler wasn't a very common first name when when it was when when my name was given to me. What's the origin of Tyler as a surname?
00:02:55
Speaker
ah I believe it's a person who tiles. I was going to say probably the guy who puts stuff in your kitchen, right? Yeah. Or bathroom. Yates tiles, Lay's tiles. I don't know. yeah Probably a person but that deals with tiles.
00:03:12
Speaker
Very cool. Probably of English origin as well. Mine was someone who pushes a cart car, man, cart, cart man. Actually, it's kind of cart, which is funny because of South Park. But all right. So I you're you're like the only person I've ever met who and I've never been exposed to this world in my life. But tell us a little bit about what you and your family are into. I thought this is just fascinating.
00:03:37
Speaker
So I have seven kids. And all seven of them are competitive Irish dancers. My, my oldest 21. My youngest is almost seven.
00:03:53
Speaker
And, uh, we travel around the country, uh, competing in Irish dance. Do they dance together as like a whole group or is it an an individual thing? How's that work?
00:04:04
Speaker
um So most of Irish dance, like you're, there's different kinds of of competitions. There are, they're called Kaley dances or group dances that have two, three, four,
Adding Value as an Effective Consultant
00:04:19
Speaker
six or eight people in them.
00:04:23
Speaker
ah So there are group dances that do that. um But the most of the dancing competitions are solo dances. So it's only one person. They compete in three different dances, well, two, and then they get to do a third one if they if they pass the ah recall.
00:04:42
Speaker
they get If they get in the top 50% for the first two, then they get to do a third dance, um and then scores are assigned. Is that like an all-weekend thing, like a...
00:04:55
Speaker
um So local ah local competitions, they called it's called a fesh. It's an Irish word. um But a local fesh that's like a little small one, usually a competition is just one day.
00:05:09
Speaker
um We'll be going to the national competition in Washington, D.C. this year, and that is a week long. Wow. Wow.
00:05:21
Speaker
The ah regional competitions, which is like a multi-state regional competition. um so we're in the southern region. So that extends everywhere from Texas all the way up to about Washington, D.C.
00:05:34
Speaker
It also includes Mexico. um So the southern region, that competition is, think, four days. three or four days, and usually over a weekend.
00:05:45
Speaker
gotcha um And the world competition is coming up in April. Two of my kids will be competing there. And that's going that's about a week, a week long, 10 days, maybe. And that's in Ireland.
00:06:01
Speaker
And that's, that one's in Ireland this year. A couple of years ago, it was in Montreal. So last year, I think it was in Scotland. So it's in different places, but this year it's, it's in, I think, Dublin.
00:06:18
Speaker
Aaron, tell us a little bit about what it means to be an effective consultant and why that's important for, for our listeners. Well, effective consulting really focuses on how can you deliver the best value to your clients, right?
00:06:36
Speaker
um There's a different skill set to consulting than there is to being an FTE or a full-time employee um at FTE. a client um and uh a lot of that comes down to making sure that you're good at communicating that you're we we like to think of ourselves not as contractors but as consultants because we're there not just to fill a seat not just to to do the work that
00:07:08
Speaker
ah that is assigned, but to also consult and grow not only the skills of the team, but the, the, but grow the, the, the business itself. Yeah. You're not just staff augmentation at that point, right? You're not just exactly another person in seat banging keys away. You're there actually to try and help mold them into um a better version of themselves.
00:07:37
Speaker
Right, right. Whenever I'm at a client, my goal is not to, or my my focus is not on specifically doing the work that I'm assigned and no more. It's about doing what's best for the client, regardless of what that is.
00:07:53
Speaker
you know um Right now, like i'm a I'm a tech lead on my current team, but I'm doing ah five dysfunctions team assessment for a completely different team that I've never worked with before because that's what the client needed and would use help with.
00:08:16
Speaker
So really effective consulting is... yeah managing that relationship with the client, um as well as ah being ah as well as contributing to your agency. So in this case, you know contributing to Caliberty, contributing to whatever company you actually work for, helping grow that team in addition to also growing your client and growing the team at your client.
00:08:48
Speaker
So when you're working as a consultant in a team, like how do you, what are some of the the things that you do to try and get yourself, you know, obviously if you're going into an established team, there are things that you've got to establish, you know, some different things like rapport and and some trust.
00:09:09
Speaker
You know, what are some tricks that you you can do so to gel into a team and and have them kind of take what you say as gospel? Well, I don't necessarily want him to take what I say as gospel.
00:09:23
Speaker
ah But ah um so recognizing the various stages of team formation is important.
00:09:34
Speaker
So um and and these can happen not just when you're building a brand new team, but when you're adding somebody to a team. And those steps are important.
00:09:45
Speaker
are um see forming norming or forming, storming, norming and performing. right So when I come into a brand new team, even if it's a team that's been successful for a long time and has been working well, we still start at that forming stage and the storming phase ah still happens.
00:10:08
Speaker
So my my main goal is to shorten those first three phases, the the ah the forming, the storming, and the norming, as much as possible to get to that performing stage as soon as we can.
00:10:22
Speaker
um Part of that is, you know, I find
Building Trust and Managing Skepticism
00:10:28
Speaker
it, you know, when you look at... ah ah Patrick Lencioni's five dysfunctions of a team.
00:10:35
Speaker
um The bottom of that of that to pyramid is trust. um And for me, I've always been somebody that's pretty easy to trust people up until you've proven to me that you're not trustworthy, but right?
00:10:51
Speaker
So that's not usually a big problem for me. i want to see that other people on the team trust each other. um you know, the next step up, from from trust us is the you know fear of conflict.
00:11:06
Speaker
And I want to make sure, you know like like you were saying, i i or like I was saying earlier, I don't want to i don't want to everybody to just trust what I say is the gospel truth, right?
00:11:17
Speaker
Because i want that I want to get rid of that fear of conflict within the group. I want to make sure that people are pushing back where they need to. And that means pushing back against me, right?
00:11:31
Speaker
Because when people feel comfortable enough, when they have that trust and then they feel comfortable enough to push back on each other, then you can kind of tease out the best solutions to whatever the problem is.
00:11:46
Speaker
So, with you know, coming in there's a lot of teams and I've, I've had this in, in my experience as well, like, you know, there may be that one or two people that are leaders in the team and they're automatically in a position of distrust when they start.
00:12:05
Speaker
Like, like, oh, who's this new guy coming in They're thinking you're like Bob and Bob, you're going to interview him What would you say you do here? And, um, and that, you know, it's putting their position in jeopardy. How do you get past some of those kind of,
00:12:22
Speaker
initial anxieties of of coming into a team? So I've seldom had that with full-time employees.
00:12:33
Speaker
I have seen that sometimes with other consultants on that same team because i'm they may feel actively threatened.
00:12:45
Speaker
you know, by somebody from not their consulting agency coming in and being added to the team. um it's It's still not something that I see frequently, but I have seen it before.
00:12:58
Speaker
um But really a lot of that is, I think, just open and honest communication. You know, make it clear, look, I'm here to do this job that I've that i've been contracted to do.
00:13:14
Speaker
And I'm gonna do that to the best of my own to my ability. And that means helping you achieve your goals. You know, ah if there's actually a problem, like if there's actually tension there, i I'm one to just attack it head on.
00:13:31
Speaker
You know, hey, I noticed we've got some tension here. Let's talk about that. um And ah the the way to approach that is with, you know, I'm a big proponent of the crucial conversations ah process of of communication. um So tell us, yeah, tell us a little bit more about that. What is this crucial comp confrontations thing?
00:13:57
Speaker
So Crucial Conversations is a book written by a number of people. um i think it's a Crucial Conversations tools for talking when the stakes are high.
00:14:09
Speaker
And ah it provides this process, really, ah and maybe some guardrails for how to have ah difficult conversations and and And some of the key aspects there are ah things like having too much lag time between when a conversation needs to happen and when that conversation actually happens.
00:14:37
Speaker
The more lag time you have, the more difficult it is to have that conversation later. um And because now you might be blindsided somebody that didn't think there was a problem, right?
00:14:49
Speaker
um There's, yeah I think one of the most important topics there is the topic of safety within a conversation. um It talks about how, you know, if if somebody that is a stranger to you comes and gives you a piece of feedback, you're gonna be very defensive of that.
00:15:10
Speaker
But if your are best friend or your spouse or somebody or a parent or some other trusted person gives you that exact same feedback, you accept it.
00:15:23
Speaker
Why is that? Well, it's because you trust the, the, uh, you trust why this trusted person is giving you that feedback and you don't trust a stranger or somebody new to the team or something like that.
00:15:39
Speaker
And so, um And sometimes that happens in the opposite, like with kids. lot of times, you know, as a parent, you'll be telling them, no, you you don't want to do it that way. You don't want to do it that way.
00:15:50
Speaker
But then when like a coach or someone else tells them the same thing, yeah but then they're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Right, right, right. ah and And that comes down to safety, right? You have to overtly communicate.
00:16:08
Speaker
that you have the same overall goal and you have the same, ah you you want the same things. And ah because of that,
00:16:22
Speaker
you're you're both headed toward the same the same direction, you know?
Mastering Crucial Conversations
00:16:27
Speaker
And so you can, ah it kind of builds that trust. and And now with, ah when I know that you want what's best for me, it's easier for me to accept that feedback, whatever it is.
00:16:40
Speaker
Yeah, and i just wanted to add in, I just realized something that you were calling it crucial conversations. And I use the term crucial conversations Wait, you said crucial conversations and I said crucial.
00:16:56
Speaker
ah Confrontations. Confrontations. Those are different things. but and Actually, but they're the same principles. yeah yeah and So it's just so you may find it and under either one, but it's it's the same principles like of, you know, why would a rational, reasonable, intelligent person do this thing. And, you know, as it's kind of like a starting point of trying to understand where they're coming from and certain to think, put yourself in their shoes.
00:17:30
Speaker
You know, um I think Steve Martin said it best when he said, you know, walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him, because that way you're a mile away and he's got no shoes.
00:17:48
Speaker
that's That's a good Steve Martin quote. i like no I like No, you hit on another you know key topic from Crucial Conversations, and that is um most people in the world are reasonable, rational, decent human beings.
00:18:08
Speaker
And yes, there are people that are actual just true jerks out there, but they are few and far between. um and And so just starting setting the starting point as I'm talking to a reasonable, rational, and decent human being um helps helps to keep yourself focused on what you want and what what's best for everyone. right um And it's so easy
00:18:43
Speaker
um to label people. And once you label them, you get to dehumanize them. You know, if I stopped saying,
00:18:58
Speaker
ah Aaron's really causing problems on our team. And I say that idiot is, is super annoying.
00:19:09
Speaker
And he's, he's causing problems with the team by saying, by replacing Aaron with that idiot, I've now dehumanized you. And my brain is, it's easier for my brain to attack you.
00:19:21
Speaker
I have been replaced by that idiot sometime.
00:19:27
Speaker
That may have happened to me once or twice. Uh, But yeah, and and that's the that's the thing too, is it's important to keep in mind, even when you're looking at somebody else's code or, you know, legacy systems, anything like that, it's, you know, the way we communicate as technicians is usually a lot through like what we've produced as work.
00:19:52
Speaker
And you don't want to inject those biases into your thinking, know, But you want to ask yourself, okay, why would somebody write this code this way or deliver this in this kind of packaging or set up a stream this way?
00:20:08
Speaker
Because usually it's there's there's really good reasons why they've made certain technical decisions besides, oh, I just wanted to do that. um there I did come across one system once where it was very obvious that this person was
00:20:26
Speaker
trying to pad their resume because every other thing was was a was a different technology. So there was like no cohesive technology and it was like, oh, we're going to try this technology. I'm going to use this here.
00:20:40
Speaker
And then i'm gonna when I get over to this section of the code, and I'm going to use this technology here. was like, I see why they did that. That's called resume-driven development. Yes. It definitely was.
00:20:55
Speaker
ah You know, I've gone into a lot of different clients that the first week that I'm there, I'm sitting there saying, why in the world did they do it this way? This seems like the stupidest way to do it.
00:21:07
Speaker
But after you've been there a month or six months, now you're like, okay, I get it. Yep. ah And part of that is also, and I think that this is...
00:21:19
Speaker
This is hard for a lot of people, but just because the code isn't written the way I would have written it doesn't mean it's wrong.
00:21:29
Speaker
And does it get the job done? is it efficient? Is it as efficient as it needs to be? It's not necessarily is it the most efficient because we all know you're not supposed to optimize code until until you have problems with it, right? Or you know that there's going to be problems with it.
00:21:49
Speaker
um The whole Yagni principle, right? Of you ain't going to need it. Yep. Yep. And so, you know, I think just overcoming that problem that that mindset of the way that I'm doing it is right. And the way that, and that means anybody else is doing it wrong is important. I think we see that a lot is, is, well, if you didn't do it the same way I did it, then it's wrong.
Navigating Team Dynamics and Conflict
00:22:20
Speaker
Right. Or even, or even the thing of coming into a new team and going, all right, fire up the bulldozers. Let's, you know, let's push all this code out and then we'll do it. Right. And in that, that,
00:22:32
Speaker
hubris of going, well, yeah, we're going to, I came in to fix this thing and rescue it and do it right. is it can be very harmful, especially when you're in those early stages of that ah farming and storming. that That's going to be a really big storm. You come in with that kind of attitude. That is definitely storming. for Yes.
00:22:54
Speaker
Well, and it's it's not going to be effective to make changes until everyone trusts that you understand their current process and how you got to that process.
00:23:05
Speaker
You know, um just because it's not the right way to do it today doesn't mean it wasn't the right time, the right way to do it. Six months ago, six years ago, 15 years ago, when these when these systems were written.
00:23:22
Speaker
Well, and there's that another quote. and i don't I don't have a reference for this one, but those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it. So you need to know how people got to the decisions that they made, or you're going to end up making the same mistakes.
00:23:42
Speaker
So you brought, it was an interesting thing you brought up. And this is one of the things that we run into in consulting. You mentioned like trying to, to teach your kids something, coach your kids something. And and they're, they're like, Oh, dad, what do you know? Right. And that concept happens at our clients as well. So there are a lot of folks at our clients are, they're very brilliant, smart folks.
00:24:01
Speaker
And they're like, hey, we need to be doing X. You know, we should we should be doing X here. And that I think that's really important. It's going to make us better for this reason. And they might be saying this for years. And then...
00:24:13
Speaker
When a consultant such as ourselves might come in we look around and we say, you know what? we should I think when we if we introduce X, we'll be you know better off, right? we we We make the same recommendation and the client, they're like, oh my goodness, that's a great idea. like They act like they never heard it before. So there's that resentment from the full-time employees who are there. What in the world? I've been saying that for three years around here and you finally. So that's a hard thing to deal with because it's not your fault, right? You can't help that.
00:24:42
Speaker
that they weren't listened to, but it, but it does happen. And that I, I, I've always struggled to find a way to, to phrase And what I, what I came across, it was wild, like a couple years ago, it, when I was like Googling around or something, but it's the, no man is a prophet in his own land.
00:24:57
Speaker
It comes from the Bible, but basically anybody like Aaron and I go to lunch with each other and, you know, He's not going to believe me to be some kind of like you know have a great epiphany or whatever. be like, that's just that gym guy that I go to lunch with.
00:25:11
Speaker
But if then you come in as an authority from the outside, like oh whatever ah whatever he says is has to be true because you know they're coming in from the outside. so ah That's an interesting thing. How do you deal with that? How do how do you reconcile those things?
00:25:23
Speaker
Actually, you bring up a, I don't know if this is a direct que answer to your question there. but Or if there was a question there. oh I put a question at the end. But you do bring up an interesting point, and that is that as consultants, we are outside of some of the politics of the business.
00:25:45
Speaker
And in ah addition to that, we have our own back channels. If there are multiple people at a client, we have additional resources that, you know, if Aaron and I are both at the same client and he's like, I'm having some major trouble with this.
00:26:10
Speaker
You know, he's got somebody else that's in the same environment that understands things. But also, I mean, I mentioned that I'm i'm doing a ah a five dysfunctions assessment for one of the teams at at my client right now.
00:26:27
Speaker
That came about because ah one of the people on that team is is one of our consultants. You know, it doesn't mean that it's a poor performing team, but there are challenges on that team that, that, that kind of kicked off this. We want to do this assessment and see how we can grow this team a little bit.
00:26:52
Speaker
If we weren't at the same, ah if he and I weren't at the same ah agency, then I doubt that that would have happened.
00:27:04
Speaker
And also, you know, With coming into a new client, there are many times that you will have the ear of people that the team doesn't just because of the nature of us being hired into that client.
00:27:21
Speaker
So we may have like a VP's ear that um the FTEs won't because of their chain of command. And that's just because of how the, how the,
00:27:34
Speaker
agreements work out in and coming in, you may have a little bit higher insert of an information chain than the team members do.
00:27:48
Speaker
And one of the things that i I've always liked doing when I get into a team that I'm consulting on that has FTEs that have been working in that area for some time and we're trying to improve, it's like,
00:28:02
Speaker
Ask them the question, what do you guys what do you guys want to see happen here? You know, pull their ideas because a lot of times they know exactly where they want it to go and what they want to see happen, but they just feel like the they're not empowered to be able to do those things.
00:28:19
Speaker
And as consultants, we can sometimes push conversation forward and go, you know what, that's a really good idea. And I agree. This, this is, this should be the thing.
00:28:30
Speaker
Let me, let me champion that for you and see if I can't get us the clearing to do that. And then that way you're, you're pushing forward as a team and it gets you to that um norming and performing a lot faster because, and gaining that trust because it's like, oh, right, he's on our side.
00:28:47
Speaker
Right. And, in then it's not you coming in going, oh yeah, we need to do this. It's more of, hey, you guys have a really good idea there. Let me help push that idea forward.
00:28:59
Speaker
And it doesn't hurt if once you get buy-in at that you know that level of influence that you might have, that elevated level of influence, once you get buy-in on that, whatever the idea is, you're going to say something like, well, I really can't take credit For the idea, Jim Bob actually raised this this ah issue or or whatever, made me aware of this in this suggestion or whatever.
00:29:21
Speaker
That helps a lot to smooth over some of that that animosity that we might feel in this situation. ah And we also, like, the company's bringing in consultants for a reason, right? it might be it might be some political reason. They want to be able to get rid of a bunch of people without without announcing layoffs, right?
00:29:41
Speaker
Right. The Bob and Bob scenario. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. um Or it or it might be they recognize there's a gap in the knowledge of their of their FTEs or even that they need an outsider's perspective, which allows but which is, you know, other reasons why frequently consultants have the ear of people that ah FTEs don't.
00:30:08
Speaker
and And sometimes it's a directed problem too. It's like, hey, we need outside help for this specific problem because we have been trying to get it to work and we just, we can't.
00:30:20
Speaker
Or the people that know how to do this are like swamped with other things. So we need you to come in and kind of own this problem and in fix it for us.
00:30:30
Speaker
So I mean, those are, those are definitely things we've done before, too. It's like we we need a push here and we got no one there well no one else to go to. Right.
00:30:41
Speaker
But, but to be very clear, um i every team that I've ever worked on, you know, I've been a consultant for 14 years, every team that I have worked on has had extremely talented developers.
00:30:55
Speaker
The FTEs that we're working with are are very talented developers in most cases. They know their jobs really well, and we're not there to replace them. you know were We're there to enhance the team.
00:31:12
Speaker
and it's not because And I think you can like you can you can get into that mindset of, oh, they brought in consultants. We must not be good enough. And in no way is, has that ever been the case for any client I've ever been at?
00:31:27
Speaker
It's always been, we want an outside perspective or ah we, we just need somebody to fill this seat because somebody left or, ah or, or we need some new ideas or we, we need some additional leadership, something like
Exploring 'Five Dysfunctions of a Team'
00:31:44
Speaker
that.
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah. And, I never want to walk into a room and be the smartest man in the room, right? Or woman or whatever, smartest person in the room.
00:31:55
Speaker
And, Luckily for me, that's almost never the case. I know where you're going with that, James. Oh, yeah. That was teed up on that one. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't going cut that one off at the pass because I knew that one was coming. You knew that was coming. I could see that rock flying in from a mile away.
00:32:10
Speaker
Hey, and I would expect the same from you. Right, yes. You're right. Yeah. You open yourself up by saying that. But that's one of the things that, you know, I'll even go into a room and say, look, I'm not looking to be the smartest guy in the room here.
00:32:23
Speaker
And it's a good thing because I'm probably not. And, you know, and that's, that's another thing that if you open yourself up to not having all the answers and going in, going, look, I'm just, I'm just looking at the problem, seeing what I can see as an observer.
00:32:39
Speaker
And, you know, the ideas are going to have to come from like this room, right? And it's just not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not like the magic man. I'm not going to wave but magic wand and make all your problems go away. It's going to be work. It's going to be, you know, and it goes back to that communication.
00:32:55
Speaker
If you're openly communicating what the intent is and what you're trying to do and legitimately asking for the help of other people, generally that's going to be well-received and they're going to be willing to help in and go, okay, yeah, I get what you're trying to do. And yeah, we'll help you out. Let's let's go. um And that can be at any level. It can be team members. It can be leads. It can be even even the VP. I'm like, yes, come in. This is going to be what I'm going to do.
00:33:25
Speaker
But sometimes you've got to be a little bit more careful and and filter that a little bit as you as you're talking further up because they have different perceptions of what they're paying for. But, you know, for the most part, you can be fairly open and honest about what it is you're doing and what process you you're taking.
00:33:42
Speaker
um I did want to circle back a little bit. You mentioned five dysfunctions. Can you talk a little bit more about that and what these five dysfunctions are?
00:33:53
Speaker
so um So it's based on a book by Patrick Lencioni. ah Let me see. It was published in 2002, looks like.
00:34:05
Speaker
At least the copy of the book I have was published in 2002. And ah he posits a ah ah structure where there are five areas of teen dysfunction.
00:34:20
Speaker
Um, and they built, uh, and they're in the form of a pyramid, you know, they, they build on each other. Um, and the, the name of the book is the five dysfunctions of a team. Um, and the, the, the first layer at the bottom that everything else is built on is trust.
00:34:37
Speaker
And the, the dysfunction is absence of trust. So if you don't have trust, then, ah you have invulnerability.
00:34:48
Speaker
You know, people are not willing to be vulnerable because, ah because they don't trust people on the team. Right. And that means that they're not willing to share their ideas.
00:35:00
Speaker
They're not willing to, ah engage in conversation. um they might think that whatever they say can be used against them later, things like that.
00:35:13
Speaker
So you have to have that basic layer of trust, um, before you can, can build anything else with the team. um Next up on the pyramid is the fear of conflict.
00:35:26
Speaker
So if if I don't trust you, then we're not going we're not going to be comfortable having conflict, but conflict is required to get the best ideas.
00:35:39
Speaker
I need to be able to push back on an idea that somebody else had and not just be like, well, I don't want to make any waves. I'm just going to let him do it his way.
00:35:51
Speaker
Right. Um, I don't want to deal with the fallout of, of, uh, uh, of bringing up an edge case that I thought of. So I'm just going to let her do that the way she wants to.
00:36:06
Speaker
Um, So with with this fear of conflict, then you end up with artificial harmony. people think People feel good about it, but you don't actually have harmony.
00:36:18
Speaker
You don't actually have agreement on the team because people didn't get people don't feel like their voices are heard, right? Because you did it this you did it the stupid way. I never agreed to do it the stupid way. so ah So I was never on board with that anyway.
00:36:37
Speaker
And there is a um difference between healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict, isn't there? Yes. Yes, there is. And with the trust, you should be able to have some healthy conflict.
00:36:52
Speaker
right I've told people on my team, look, if you don't agree with something that I'm suggesting as ah as a solution, I want you to fight back. And I want you to keep pushing until you're convinced that whatever solution we've come up with at that point is the best solution.
00:37:12
Speaker
You know, keep pushing at me. Don't be like, oh, he's been doing this for 25 years. He knows what he's talking about. I don't care if you're a junior, ah mid-level, a senior, ah principal. I don't care what yourre what your experience level is. If you see a flaw in my and my solution, let's hammer it out.
00:37:33
Speaker
But you don't want like the real housewives of IT kind of drama conflict, right? No. hair pulling and face slapping. and Well, but but we also – no, no, we don't want that.
00:37:48
Speaker
um But also it brings all of that conflict together. into one area where it's safe to discuss that. And so it also keeps people from, from after that meeting's over, you know, me going to James and saying, boy, Aaron had such a stupid idea.
00:38:08
Speaker
Can you believe that? Right. And now James and I are talking about you behind your back more than usual. Right. Right. I was going to say, I'm like, what? um and And that breaks away at the trust and that breaks away with with at other it chips away at the team.
00:38:26
Speaker
Right. Well, in the individual as well, because if you if if that individual ever becomes aware of that, that talking behind their back, Their confidence gets shook because i thought, you know, I had the trust of the team that we had an open line of communication. Now I'm hearing the stuff behind. I'm like, now I'm not so sure.
00:38:46
Speaker
So now I may be a little bit more guarded with my own communication because of that, because I don't know what people are saying. You know, maybe I thought I was presenting good ideas, but if the team doesn't feel that way, maybe I'm going to close off.
00:38:59
Speaker
Right, right. So once you have that, but once you can have healthy conflict within the team, people feel comfortable sharing their ideas. The next step up on the pyramid is lack of commitment.
00:39:14
Speaker
So if I don't feel like my ideas are heard and I don't and i don't really agree with whatever solution James has brought forth, then um'm going to have a hard time committing to do that.
00:39:28
Speaker
Oh, that was his stupid idea. I never wanted to do it anyway. Right. Um, and so that can lead to ambiguity that can lead to, to just lack of buy-in to whatever solution came on. And I, I think we've all been on teams like like this before where somebody has said, well, that was never a good idea to begin with, you know, of course it failed.
00:39:52
Speaker
Right. I've, I've actually been forced to implement something like that. it is very, um, um you you get very grumpy when you, when you're at the keyboard because you're like, oh my God, this is so stupid.
00:40:05
Speaker
And you're just like, and you're banging away going, this is, there is something wrong with this. And I just don't agree with it. And like, Oh, this was half baked and oh this and that. And then when it does fall over, you're like,
00:40:18
Speaker
Dang it, I knew it.
00:40:22
Speaker
Right, right. But when you have that healthy, the the healthy kind of conflict and you have trust within the team, ah then even if everybody doesn't 100% agree with the solution that you're moving forward with, you can have buy-in from everyone.
00:40:41
Speaker
I may not think that it's the 100% best solution, but I at least feel that my voice was heard. And if it does go south, you know, maybe they'll listen to me next time. I don't know.
00:40:53
Speaker
But, um but that, that allows buy-in, it allows people able to commit to the, to, to the decisions that were made. um Yeah. Healthy teams can, ah the way I've seen it phrase is like you, healthy teams can get to a point ah point of disagreement. They don't agree, but they're aligned. yeah They can be aligned to move forward and that's okay. And then, but you shouldn't be,
00:41:17
Speaker
You're not trying to undermine the thing either, right? Exactly. The healthy team is actually, okay, um um I'm aligned with you. This is the direction we're going. This is the the lack of commitment phases where you see like new people would just kind of check out too, right? They're just they're not present in meetings. Right. they're they're just I'm not being heard anyway. it does We never talk about the important things. Whatever. I'm just i'm just here.
00:41:38
Speaker
I'm just slinging code. That's all I do. The Eeyore. I'm just here to write code. well and And you see that on teams where people are just there to punch the clock.
00:41:50
Speaker
yep i was I was here by 40 hours this week. ah I don't actually care that, that the front end and the back end don't work well together. I don't care that I changed the contract between the front end of the back end and didn't tell anybody I did my job.
00:42:07
Speaker
And, and so once you have, ah so once you're, you're, or building on that commitment that the team now has um next is avoidance of accountability is the fourth thing.
00:42:23
Speaker
ah dysfunction So avoidance of accountability leads to low standards. um If we don't have buy-in from everybody, then again, it's easy for me to say, well, I didn't think that was a good idea anyway. It's not my fault.
00:42:38
Speaker
um And on ah on a high-performing team, every one everyone buys into the the decisions. Everybody is in alignment, as as James was saying.
00:42:49
Speaker
We're all in alignment. We don't necessarily 100% agree, but we're aligned. Nobody's going to undermine the overall decision that was made. And then you succeed or you fail together as a team.
00:43:05
Speaker
Right. um So and to so and again, that can lead to low standards that can be ah and just really lack of commitment within the team leads to that that lack of accountability or avoidance of accountability.
00:43:22
Speaker
And then finally, we move to ah the the top. The top of the pyramid is inatent inattention to results. And that is ah people saying, well, I don't care how the team performs. i want to build my resume.
00:43:37
Speaker
You know, I don't care how the team succeeds. I'm more interested in me personally succeeding. um So status and ego are are kind of the problems with that.
00:43:48
Speaker
And when you have... ah you know, when everybody is aligned, everybody is accountable to the team. Everyone feels like ah they can, they can speak their piece. Everybody feels like they there's a ah ah common amount of trust within the team.
00:44:09
Speaker
Then the whole team succeeds together. You know, it's not about whether James gets a promotion It's about whether the team is well known for producing high quality results.
00:44:27
Speaker
And what's going to happen there is everybody on the team is going to get promoted. You know, everybody on the team is going to be well known. Everybody's going to be on everybody on the team is going to be ah is, is going to get their compensation in pre increased or whatever.
00:44:42
Speaker
um And everyone's going to get that recognition. Unfortunately, what usually happens is they say, wow, this team is awesome. Let's split up that team. I know. And seed other teams. And it doesn't really work like that necessarily. Yeah, i yeah we've seen that a lot. where it's like There's a cohesion that's there. This team is repeated is perfect. let's Let's take some of that talent and spread it around. And they're like, no, you're resetting everything. Exactly. Right. Because it's not ah it's not about the individual contributions of each person.
00:45:21
Speaker
It's about how well they're working together. And some of those people can feel like they're being punished for being good in in that scenario because they're they finally reached a comfort level where it's like, I love working in this team because I have that trust. I have you know that we have that cohesion. We have the healthy conflict.
00:45:39
Speaker
We can get our ideas across out in and move forward. in in a very quick pace to where we're performing very, very well.
00:45:51
Speaker
And then somebody comes and goes, yeah, okay, let's blow it up. And just like, great. We just got blown out of the water. Right. And it's not always that great.
00:46:02
Speaker
You know, one of the, on that last topic too, I have seen also that when you have that, that feeling that it,
00:46:13
Speaker
it wasn't a good idea from the beginning and you didn't get your buy-in, you didn't have that trust, you didn't have the, you've got the internal conflict. I've actually seen people going, ah I'm not putting my name on that. You know, so the opposite of resume building, they're avoiding, you know, putting their name on stuff because they don't believe in it.
00:46:31
Speaker
And which is, which is, you know kind of the flip side of that coin where it's just, Not that's not where you want to be. You know, if if you're not proud to put your name on something, then you're doing something wrong.
00:46:44
Speaker
We always we always talked about when you're when you're writing code or you have a design that you want to be. Proud of it like you if you gave it to your mother, she put it up on the fridge. Right.
00:46:58
Speaker
Type of type of scenario, the gold star scenario where it's like, oh, you got a gold star. Let's put this up on the fridge, you know, type of thing. And that's where, that's where your level of comfort on your solutions, your code, your, that kind of stuff. It's like, that should be the standard you're holding yourself to.
00:47:17
Speaker
Um, and then, you know, try and get your team to, to do that as well. Be in, and if you're all trying to work together and come together and work in that general direction to where everybody's producing quality, um,
00:47:34
Speaker
without being know and like you said have all of those different pieces you're you're going to come together you're going to feel like a unit you're going to be moving from that norming to performing naturally and a lot of and things it'll be you look forward to coming into work when that happens yeah Well, and that's the thing when all of these, like when you, when you don't have much dysfunction on the team, right, there's always room for, for improvement.
00:48:05
Speaker
But when you're, when you're on a high performing team and you're on a team that people get a along and that you, people feel heard and people buy into decisions and all of that, people enjoy the work that they're, they're doing.
00:48:19
Speaker
You know, it doesn't mean the work is easier. Frequently it's actually harder work. Right. Because you're doing it the right way.
Growth in Consulting: Personal and Professional
00:48:28
Speaker
The right way is it's not usually the easy way.
00:48:31
Speaker
um But even though you may be working harder, ah you're you're more satisfied with the work that you're doing.
00:48:44
Speaker
Great. And you, you, you talked about, you know, putting that gold star up on the fridge. And ah one of the things that I really like about consulting and not everybody agrees with me on this, but one of the things i like about consulting is that I am the product that is being sold.
00:49:07
Speaker
You know, if I want to improve the product, I can do that. I can go learn something. I can read a book. I can learn a new technology. I can get better at coding.
00:49:20
Speaker
And I don't have to worry about whether some factory worker is putting a screw in the right way. I don't have to worry about who else is is doing whatever.
00:49:31
Speaker
i am the quality. Like I personally set the quality of the work that I'm doing. Some of us were born with loose screws though.
00:49:41
Speaker
Well, Aaron, and, and some of those screws just can't be tightened. You know what i mean? Well, I, I do understand that. I don't know what you mean. Can you, can you explain that further?
00:49:52
Speaker
ah I'm saying I got a few screws loose. I think that's my problem. I know. I just wanted you to say it out loud.
00:50:03
Speaker
All right. So this has been a great conversation. Um, If you want to learn more, ah you can reach out to us on our email, the forward slash at Caliberty.com.
00:50:17
Speaker
And at this point, I'd like to go to our Ship It or Skip It segment. Ship or skip, ship or skip, everybody, we got to tell us if you ship or skip.
00:50:29
Speaker
So the way Ship It or Skip It works... we're going to throw out a different topic out there and we're all going to individually take a vote on whether we think we should ship it, skip it, or somewhere in between.
00:50:41
Speaker
Like usually there's like asterisks, underlined subscripts, you know, gray areas, whatever. um But you just bring these up and we'll just kind of throw out our ideas.
00:50:54
Speaker
So James, what's the first thing on our ship it or skip it list? Yeah, i was I was trying to come up with some some interesting stuff that kind of related Aaron's area of passion, which is around like leadership and and team building and that sort of stuff. um How about doing icebreaker activities in meetings?
00:51:19
Speaker
What about you, A.A. Ron? So, ah well, first of all, that reminds me... um Aaron, can you give us two truths and a lie?
00:51:30
Speaker
Can you draw a picture of a cat that is showing the emotion you're feeling right now? yeah You know how much polar bear weighs. Enough to break the ice.
00:51:42
Speaker
ah Yeah, I'm... Sometimes... It's good, but generally, I'm like, ship it. i just We'll get to know each other without it.
00:51:54
Speaker
yeah i Now, i I should clarify, I'm okay with introductions. you know if you're at a If you've got new people or something like that. But...
00:52:06
Speaker
these stupid little games that are icebreakers. i I don't care. Unless there's, unless there's a purpose, you know, um like I've, I've just started reading overcoming the five dysfunctions of a team.
00:52:19
Speaker
And one of the things that they recommend for improving trust is ah little, a trust exercise. It's like this little three question thing. And I have to remember what that is.
00:52:30
Speaker
ah Like one of them is um And they're questions about ah how many how many siblings did you grow up with?
00:52:42
Speaker
And there was something else about growing up. And the third thing was, what's um something that defined you as a kid or something something like that, you know something that but made an impact in your life when you were a kid?
00:52:57
Speaker
Yeah. And that's something that helps to build trust on the team because it invokes some amount of vulnerability and helps people to understand things.
00:53:11
Speaker
But that's not an icebreaker. You know, I'm not opposed to to vulnerability and trust building exercises in general. Just icebreakers are are bad
00:53:25
Speaker
For me, again, I've been a software architect all my career, basically, and and all my answers are it depends, right? So I can't get away from that. But I think it depends on the type of meeting.
00:53:36
Speaker
So when you're having like a get together of people that don't work together on a daily basis, very much like a summit-y type of a meeting, right? Where you're getting people together on infrequent basis, maybe kicking off the day to kind of settle into like, hey, we're going to be here together for the next few hours or whatever. those okay, that can be fun.
00:53:52
Speaker
Um, but yeah, like daily standups or anything like that. Yeah. I don't know. I did. I don't remember what I was. There was one book I read that, that recommended like in the beginning of meetings, if you are going to have like a staff meeting or something that if anybody has like, you know, like something going on that where you, you don't feel like you can be fully present or there's something that would impact how, how well you're showing up that day, maybe just to let folks know about that. Like, Oh, Hey, my, my,
00:54:21
Speaker
My dog was sick last night and was kept me up all night or or I've got a sick kid at home or, you know, whatever it is that makes you not as present as you normally should or could be in that meeting. Maybe you bring that up.
00:54:31
Speaker
I thought that might be interesting to try sometime, but I've never tried it. But I've done that before. And I mean, in fact, I think I just did this last week when. um I caught this flu that's been going around, you know, and I'm like, Hey, sorry. you know, I may be a little bit touch and go today because I've got this flu thing that's going around and and it just, it helps with the other people understand kind of like what you're going through on that day and not just going, Oh, I haven't gotten an answer back from him in an hour. he you know, he's obviously sloughing off.
00:55:04
Speaker
It was like, well, no, maybe he's just like out of it because he took, the wrong quill, right? He took the night quill. He took the night quill today. The wrong quill. I'm on the quill today. Yeah.
00:55:20
Speaker
All right. So the next ship it or skip it. ah How about, you know, from crucial conversations and radical candor, kind of, we hear that, that, that mantra of like praise in public, criticize in private.
00:55:32
Speaker
what do you think about that I think that's a ship it because I think, you know, the, the criticizing in public is like public shaming, uh, a bit.
'Ship It or Skip It': Team Building and Leadership
00:55:45
Speaker
And I, I don't think there's really any benefit to doing that except maybe making yourself look good.
00:55:53
Speaker
So I, I don't, I don't feel like that is a good practice to have where you're, you know, if, if, and I've, and I've had people criticize me both in public and in private. And it's, it's,
00:56:08
Speaker
much better received um on the private side because it's kind of like okay yeah that's something i can work on versus ah feeling like a complete idiot and having all of your authority stripped away especially if you're somewhere in the middle like as a as a lead or a consultant or something like that um in the praise then also gives you an opportunity to pass that down to the team that supported you with that. So a lot of times what I'll do is like if somebody praises me individually for something, I will say, well, I didn't get here on my own.
00:56:47
Speaker
The team actually did a lot of that work. I'm I am just the presenter. So um I want to you know give them and you can pass that around, share the love, play pay it forward.
00:56:59
Speaker
And I like having a nice public um area to do that because the more people that hear that other people are doing good work, it makes everybody feel better. I don't think it's it's a win-win in that and situation. So for me, that sentiment of of, you know, praising in public, criticizing in private is absolutely a shipment for me.
00:57:23
Speaker
so i i I agree. like The reason I had to think about this a bit. I agree with the praise in public, criticize and in private as a general rule. I also think, depending on the situation, communicate at the level that was communicated.
00:57:40
Speaker
If someone criticizes you in public, you should be able to respond in public to that criticism. If someone criticizes you in private, you should respond to that criticism in private as a general rule.
00:58:02
Speaker
you know If somebody's accusing your company of of, hey, I bought this thing and I didn't ship it, and I haven't received it yet, three weeks later, if they put that on a Facebook comment, you should be able to reply to the Facebook comment, we shipped it on this date.
00:58:21
Speaker
and ah And it shows that that ah it was signed for at your door. you know But if you if you have that same thing and you send a private email about that, then they should they shouldn't blast that on on Facebook. Yeah.
00:58:39
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. ah I'm going to ship it on in in general. Again, this is my architect answer. Praise and public, criticize and private. So there's two, there's, there's a couple of different thoughts here. So like, if you read like the, the no rules rules, it it may depend on the culture. So like the Reed Hastings book, the Netflix book, right?
00:58:59
Speaker
Their culture is very open, right? Very, very open. And they, they, um if you're on stage giving a presentation, let's say at Netflix and like Kim, was it Kim Scott from Radical Candor and not her name?
00:59:13
Speaker
if If she's saying, um, in her presentations, their culture is very much like during your presentation, someone from the crowd could yell out, stop saying, um, so much.
00:59:26
Speaker
right? Like that's, that's their culture. Now, I don't know if I know necessarily would, would, it would work well for me in a culture like that. Uh, but I, but I do think there's also the, what you were talking about when it comes to apologies, um, Aaron, uh, Tyler.
00:59:41
Speaker
So if somebody, if I were to do something, the offense happened in public, well, by golly, that, that apology better be in public as well. If I, if I was to say something to to Aaron and, and, and I was wrong.
00:59:53
Speaker
I need to, and I did that publicly. I need to own up to that and I need to apologize to Aaron in public as well. Um, but yeah, I think that's where things get a little, a little different there, but, uh, yeah.
01:00:04
Speaker
I'm with it in general. Most things said about me are correct. So, right. But how I would say might be, might be something I need to. Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:14
Speaker
But what I said, i yeah, it's probably right. I'm just kidding.
01:00:20
Speaker
All right. Let's see.
01:00:23
Speaker
Yeah. How about compensation tied to team performance? yeah how about compensation tied to team perform
01:00:38
Speaker
I'm going to take your answer. It depends. Okay. Say more words. Yeah. it i I think that um
01:00:52
Speaker
I should not be held back because my team members are underperforming.
01:01:01
Speaker
However,
01:01:04
Speaker
If I'm not contributing, like I think compensation shouldn't necessarily be tied to team performance. It should be tied to my performance on the team.
01:01:15
Speaker
So if, if my team is performing low, but I'm, I'm doing everything i can to improve the performance of my team, I shouldn't be held back compensation wise because because Aaron's not not doing his part of the bargain, right?
01:01:38
Speaker
If I'm like, hey guys, we're we're a low performing team right now. Let's let's do this five team or five five dysfunctions assessment, see where we can grow. And everybody reluctantly agrees to do that and we do it. And then we make an agreement on...
01:01:54
Speaker
um This is what we're, the we're going to talk about this in our retro every other week. And we're going to, we're going to try to improve in this area. And I'm the only one that talks in retro.
01:02:05
Speaker
And I'm the only person that, that is doing what the team agreed on. i shouldn't be held back because, because I'm on a team that's not trying.
01:02:20
Speaker
Theoretically, like, ideally, I'd be put on a different team at that point. Right. Or or we'd swap out a couple other people on the team so that the entire team is a higher perform ah is a higher performing team.
01:02:35
Speaker
But. um it's kind of like group projects in college, right? It's like, I can only get a C because, because half of the team didn't show up to the meetings that I scheduled and half the team didn't show up and, or half the team didn't do the things that we all agreed would be the way we split out the, the assignment.
01:03:00
Speaker
And, you know, I shouldn't, i should be I should be compensated based on my achievements. The dreaded project.
01:03:12
Speaker
Yes.
01:03:15
Speaker
Yeah. And for my part, I would say it depends as well on this one. I normally don't do depends. um There's a joke there somewhere. I'm not going there. Yeah.
01:03:34
Speaker
But for a team, i i think that if a team has done stellar work on above and beyond, you know, rewarding that with some type of compensation is great. It shows you know that the it's a nice way of showing appreciation, but on like an annual review type basis where I agree with Aaron, I want my compensation to be tied to my individual effort in the team, not the team's effort reflecting on me. Because like you said, you know, there's, there are times that a team is, is underperforming and you're trying everything in your power to try and elevate that team and bring the watermark up collectively.
01:04:27
Speaker
But if you're on like a high performing team and you just did something awesome and you want to celebrate that awesomeness, then yeah, compensate the team.
01:04:41
Speaker
So I think it just depends on what, you mean by compensation in, in those scenarios, if it's like a, uh, you know, an attaboy, uh, type of compensation for doing a good job as a team. I think so.
01:04:55
Speaker
Cause I, and I don't like being pulled out as an individual in those situations. Like, Oh, we're rewarding this one person for this project because they did such a good job with it.
01:05:08
Speaker
When really it was a team effort. I'm a ship it for empowered teams. that have agency to control things as a team.
01:05:21
Speaker
And they're, you know, as you said, they're high performing. So if there are folks not doing their part or whatever, they, they, they get through those conflicts. They support one another. i i think you can pull it off. I think you can do it.
01:05:33
Speaker
ah But you, but you have to make sure that those teams feel that they have agency to control their own destiny. If you just put them in ah an environment and in they have no means to improve their, their situation,
01:05:45
Speaker
that's a, that's a, that's just asking for, you know, people to just, they're just going to quit. That's not a, that's not a fair way to do that. But if you give, give a team, you empower a team and they have agency and they know they have agency. Yeah.
01:05:57
Speaker
yeah I think you can do it. i think I think that if i if I tell you nine months ago that that this team member is not pulling his weight and our team performance is suffering because of this one or two team members and nine months later, I don't get a compensation adjustment because my team didn't didn't perform, I'm going to be upset.
01:06:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think when I say agency, I mean you have the agency to change the composition of the team too. You know what I mean? I think that I can agree with that if you have agency to – Vote them off the island, so to speak. Yes, yes.
01:06:38
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:41
Speaker
all right. Cool. Yeah, I do think you have to be careful with that though. you You want to make sure people have the right mindset. Yeah. when thinking about a team, i don't even remember what book it was. I read this in, but they they said the way they think about it is when you, when you bring people into your company or, you know, on, on board with a team, it's like you're, you're putting them on your spaceship and you, you can't just jettison them out the airlock. I mean, everybody's going we're on this spaceship on a three-year journey to a new planet or whatever. They're they're going to have to contribute. So you have to make sure that you're, you're vetting people coming in well, but also.
01:07:13
Speaker
So you've never played among those.
01:07:18
Speaker
I mean, you can jettison them out here. I mean, it happens all the time, right? I mean, or yes, but like, but you, but you want people to have that mentality of like, I need to really do what I, the most that I can for my teammates to help support them and not just, know, give in and out the airlock. Right. Cause you're team by yourself eventually. If that's your, your number one thing to do is just see you later.
01:07:42
Speaker
All right. And that's not a solution by the way. no man should live on an Island. I know some people that would be like, well, that would to be great. Yeah.
01:07:54
Speaker
And then all the projects would be half done, like all my side projects. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which will bring us to our final segment, the lightning round.
01:08:16
Speaker
Rapid fire, don't slow down. Hands up quick and make it count. In this game, there's no way out. It's time for the lightning round. Which Aaron's going to love because he hates icebreaker questions.
01:08:30
Speaker
But we're doing it at the end. Yeah, we're doing it at the end. This is a clearing of ice, I guess, instead of breaking. is grief for you But what this is is, we're going to go back and forth and we're going rapid and fire some questions at you.
01:08:44
Speaker
um And they're just short answer. You don't need to pontificate on any, any single one of these questions. If you survive at the end, there will be no prizes or, or monetary rewards. So it is all just for bragging rights.
01:09:04
Speaker
So with that, James, would you like to kick us off with the first question?
01:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, let's do. Yeah.
01:09:16
Speaker
All right, here's a here's a softball question for you. Name one of the seven dwarfs. Sleepy.
01:09:26
Speaker
Would you rather cuddle a baby panda or a baby penguin? Penguin.
01:09:33
Speaker
Is there such thing as an objective beauty? No.
01:09:40
Speaker
How often is it healthy to cry? As often as needed. This could be an interesting one for you. Do you know how to salsa dance? No.
01:09:53
Speaker
How many kids would you like to have?
01:10:01
Speaker
I have seven. so that's good? and
01:10:06
Speaker
but Would you like to have more? We're not having any more. it is. I know. ah seven it is
01:10:14
Speaker
You're trying to get this man in trouble. What are you doing? Well, you know, it was where I put the emphasis of the question. um I'm glad we're not buying diapers anymore.
01:10:25
Speaker
Yeah. Right. i'm and I'm ready to be moving more into the the ah not a parent of toddlers anymore stage. We've been there for 20 years.
01:10:36
Speaker
Oh, jeez.
01:10:39
Speaker
My answer would have been something like, if it's less than the number I have now, do I get to choose? ah And I can say that because my wife and my kids, are they're never going to listen to this.
01:10:53
Speaker
Right.
01:10:58
Speaker
Wait, are you saying you get to choose whether to keep the wife and the kids? well Okay, moving right along. Because Aaron knows my wife. He'll tell her. You know what i mean? He will absolutely tell her.
01:11:11
Speaker
You won't believe what Jebe said.
01:11:16
Speaker
Okay, if you were really hungry, would you eat a bug? i don't think so. No. Do you know the definition of Truskadekaphobia? Truskadekaphobia. Nope, I don't.
01:11:29
Speaker
oh We would have accepted the answer, the fear of number 13. What size bed do you prefer? um Queen.
01:11:45
Speaker
and love that band. If the toilet paper roll is really low but not completely out, do you replace it or leave it for someone else? Leave it for someone else. If it's not gone, it's not gone.
Final Thoughts on Soft Skills in Tech Teams
01:11:59
Speaker
But I might make sure that there's another roll available. that's my go-to move. i'm I'm the, okay, take the toilet paper roll, set it on the counter next to the almost empty roll.
01:12:10
Speaker
But recognize with nine people in the family, we use a lot of toilet paper. i can imagine. So we want to use yeah the so last little bit. yeah Yeah. Of everything.
01:12:22
Speaker
Yeah. was going to say, it's not, it's not just a toilet paper thing for y'all. It's milk. It's bread. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. go yeah Yeah. I get all of it. Pretty sure we spend more on, on house, like on groceries than I do on my mortgage.
01:12:35
Speaker
who Good night. Especially with the price of eggs going up. Yeah. Yeah. We have chickens. just insane like Oh, there you go. I can, I'm like, are you protecting them against the bird flu?
01:12:47
Speaker
They're, uh, they're not uh they're not uh mingling with other birds so maybe i don't know but do they wear masks no i'm just kidding i don't know how you protect the bird i don't know how i don't know how that works like what is what is actually she saw this on the news they do they've got like they put special roofing shingles on the coop so that um wild bird droppings don't fall into their pens and that kind of thing.
01:13:19
Speaker
um we go no No, we're not protecting against bird flu. Are you protecting Skittles? that's his his arm He's an indoor bird, so he doesn't interact with wild birds. So, yes.
01:13:32
Speaker
he doesn't And you don't bring any droppings of outside birds into your home regularly? ah Yeah, I quit doing that. yeah just there's my sure Skittles is safe. that's so That's what we want to know.
01:13:45
Speaker
We love Skittles. On a scale of 1 to 10, how good are you at wiffle ball?
01:13:53
Speaker
Three. Hmm. We would also have accepted 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or Or 10. in fact or to so um What is the capital of New York?
01:14:11
Speaker
Albany? Yep. Nailed it. Nailed That'd be great if we're all wrong. Yeah.
01:14:21
Speaker
So are any final thoughts, Aaron, plugs, things you want to make sure people leave this episode knowing, thinking about shout outs you want to give?
01:14:36
Speaker
and think that a lot of these soft topics, team building, crucial conversations, all of that. um I think a lot of people,
01:14:50
Speaker
especially, especially engineers, you know, technologists think of it as just fluffy stuff. That doesn't matter. I can write code. Why do I have to worry about all of this?
01:15:02
Speaker
And i think that we need to change that mindset. Um, the the research has shown teams that, that work better together, produce better results and,
01:15:18
Speaker
ah talking about talking about teamwork isn't about trust falls. You know, it's, it's real, it's real work and it's real ah benefit that can not only sharpen your, ah not not only improve the, the yeah communication, improve the performance of your team, but can also sharpen your technical skills.
01:15:50
Speaker
All right. All right. That concludes this episode of the forward slash where we lean into the future it. I'd like to thank our guest Aaron Tyler for talking with us about effective consulting.
01:16:01
Speaker
I'd also like to thank my beautiful co-host James and all of our production staff that make this podcast possible. Make sure you subscribe, rate, and share. If you'd like to reach us at the forward slash or have questions, you can email us at the forward slash at Caliberty.com.
01:16:19
Speaker
I'm Aaron Chesney. Thank you and stay curious.