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/product strategy: adapting to AI
55 Plays25 days ago
Is AI making product design smarter—or just noisier? This week, James talks with Erica Price, product experience leader, about how AI is reshaping UX, product design, and job dynamics. From ADHD hyper-focus as a superpower to the limits of chat interfaces, Erica shares practical insights on using AI as a tool—not a replacement—in the future of design.
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Transcript
AI's Role in the Workforce
00:00:00
Speaker
AI really isn't necessarily something that's going to take over our jobs. It's really just going to enable us to do other things.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome to the forward slash podcast where we lean into the future of IT by inviting fellow thought leaders, innovators, and problem solvers to slash through its complexity.
Introducing Erica Price
00:00:40
Speaker
Today we're talking to Erica Price. Welcome to the podcast, Erica.
00:00:43
Speaker
Well, hello there. Erica Price is a product experience leader with over a decade of experience guiding both Fortune 500 organizations and startups in creating user-centered digital solutions.
00:00:57
Speaker
She's an international speaker on accessibility UX education and AI ethics and a hands-on practitioner exploring how emerging AI tools can be applied in product strategy and design.
00:01:09
Speaker
Again, welcome. always Welcome back, I should say. You've been on the podcast before. Oh, yes. We talked a lot about chicken the last time. We did. We did. We talked lot about chicken. Surprisingly relevant.
00:01:21
Speaker
Chicken company. But you don't work for them anymore. You work for a new company. Tell us about that.
Erica's Journey and AI Impact
00:01:28
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So i started ah started at Caliberty.
00:01:34
Speaker
Fun stuff. Yeah, I worked at Yum for quite a few years. And Ryan and I had been chatting and he's like... Do you want to come over and do consulting? And I was like, absolutely. Heck yes. That sounds like so much fun.
00:01:48
Speaker
And so, yeah, I started my first client on Monday. So that's like underway and just super excited to be back in like the icy seat and working on all the product fun things and also just experiencing ah more diverse teams, which super excited about that.
00:02:06
Speaker
Well, I mean, I guess congratulations should be in order. i think it was about six months ago was kind of the big buzz is that AI is going to just, you know, we we won't need product people anymore.
00:02:17
Speaker
um So you've you've lived through that and you still have a job. So congratulations. That's good. You've you've survived. I survived the AI apocalypse. Yes, you're a survivor. We'll have to get you a t-shirt. Yes.
00:02:30
Speaker
You know, there's, you know, the but they keep saying AI is going to replace all these different jobs. and And there's a degree of, you know, it's going to replace parts of our jobs. But, ah you know, i think it's the consensus we're kind of landing on.
00:02:44
Speaker
it's not going to replace all these jobs completely. There's, there's neat, we need the human in the loop, not quite ready, not yet. you know, there's, there's all sorts of different, but you know, stories going on about this.
00:02:57
Speaker
Tell us about, you know, you seem like you got some stuff going on in the AI world. How are things in the product side of the world when it comes to AI? Yeah. So it's, it's so fun and diverse. And I think it's such a, like, what a time to,
00:03:12
Speaker
be in the tech industry. It's a terrifying time because everyone's like, oh my gosh, our jobs are going to disappear. ah But so honestly, it's it's just fascinating to see the evolution of how AI is perceived.
00:03:27
Speaker
And I think we're still going through that evolution and there's still a long way to go But for me, AI really isn't necessarily something that's going to take over our jobs. It's really just going to enable us to do other things.
00:03:42
Speaker
So everyone's going to have to start upskilling because a lot of these basic things we're going to have AI do. But even when you ask AI to do these basic things, you still need to babysit it. Like you still need to give it appropriate context.
00:03:55
Speaker
You need to um put effort and energy into it. So a lot of people think, oh, AI, i don't have to do work. And like, that's the wrong way think about it. ah Because you're probably going to have to play an active part in coaching.
00:04:10
Speaker
to get a particular like output that you're expecting. And if you don't put the energy in, it's not gonna be able to give you the energy that you're putting in. So anyway, it's weird way to saying it.
AI as a Tool, Not a Replacement
00:04:24
Speaker
Basically, I think that um it's changing the way that we work overall, especially in the product space. So for example, I like to use,
00:04:35
Speaker
AI for general project planning and to get ah deep dive on a topic that I don't know as well. or i don't have a deep understanding of it.
00:04:47
Speaker
um I like to bounce ideas off of it. But for the most part, every single time that I'm creating an artifact using AI, I'm almost always putting in the work beforehand to say, hey, these are my expectations.
00:05:01
Speaker
This is how I want you to output this information. And then I'm also reading everything and making sure that it's all accurate because let's be honest, AI hallucinates.
00:05:14
Speaker
very intensely and we just have to be mindful of that. I like to think of ai as like my calculator or somebody, think I might even said this in my other the other episode that we did. um It's like picking up a power drill to do a woodworking process ah project instead of a screwdriver. It's just like a tool that enables you to do things some things faster.
00:05:37
Speaker
but it doesn't mean you get out of doing work still gotta do that that's gonna be the scary thing because i think of like you know our our modern world with you know electronics in our face every day where that instant gratification is just running rampant in our society in our in our culture and this AI thing I worry about, like, there's just going to be all these people that they they aren't doing a job at all.
The Future of Work with AI
00:06:02
Speaker
They're literally just typing things in AI and copy and pasting it. And then that's their, their output. But I think it'll take a little bit to sniff all of that out. And, uh, what's going to happen is, as you were saying, the people who are, know,
00:06:15
Speaker
figuring out how to leverage AI to do their job better, not just spit out the garbage. that Yeah, not just do their job. Because if you're letting AI do your job, eventually somebody's going to figure out, maybe I don't need you. If AI is doing everything for you anyway, maybe we don't need you.
00:06:30
Speaker
yeah um did i Yeah, you got to learn how to leverage the tool.
Attention Spans and Learning
00:06:34
Speaker
I think about that all the time, especially being a parent and also being addicted to my phone. just being a Not being able to ah perform long-term activities is such a huge problem.
00:06:51
Speaker
um And it's like I've even noticed it. I'm ADHD, so I'm already like... prone to not doing things for long periods of times. But it's insane how little attention span so many people have now.
00:07:06
Speaker
yeah I mean, I came, my my last job, I was in education, higher ed and specifically, and and I was there for about five years or so. And just over that time, we started to see the evolution of learning of like, we had to come up with this idea of micro learning. We can't just sit people down and say, watch this 30 minute video. then They're not doing that.
00:07:26
Speaker
Give me three minute video and I'll watch that while I'm waiting on the bus or whatever. it's It's different, right? Our attention spans are just, are different.
Erica's Personal Insights
00:07:35
Speaker
Now, do you find if you if you are ADHD, one thing that I've noticed with folks who have ADHD and software engineering is that that hyper focus, you can become hyper focused on certain things. And and they folks in in software engineering, they tend to gravitate towards our field because they, number one, you have to.
00:07:53
Speaker
So it becomes like a superpower almost, right? ah Do you find that to be the case with you? It is something that ah it's a fleeting experience, the the hyper-focusing.
00:08:05
Speaker
And it is a and unpredictable in how to trigger it. But when I do, I can work and do things. Sometimes... Not always like even the correct thing. because That's just like with ADHD.
00:08:18
Speaker
It's just like he start hyper focusing on one thing like, oh, all of a sudden it's 5 a.m. and I've been playing, i don't know, The Sims. And i should I probably shouldn't have been doing that. I should have been sleeping instead.
00:08:32
Speaker
um But there are, i i would say that i I can trigger it pretty quickly. easily when I'm at work just because it's something that I'm so interested in. I feel very sorry for anyone who's ADHD and who does not like the job that they're at. It's gotta be awful. Yeah. Because at least I can trigger it by working, being, getting into planning mode and um like chatting with AI and like having it help me focus on a particular element or even having AI just like give me like, what are the next three things that I should focus on in the next 30 minutes?
00:09:10
Speaker
so that I could accomplish X task. And so that's a really nice way for me to attempt to like capture my hyper focusing. So that way it's just like intentional but with like the work that I'm doing, because if not, if I don't have that active, proactive mindset,
00:09:29
Speaker
then I can accidentally be doing something really silly, like reconfiguring all of the story pointing stuff in JIRA. Like that's not necessarily needed, but I have definitely done that in the past and ah was a nice little wake up call to be like, all right, I can't let my ADHD or my hyper focusing take over because...
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah. I can understand that. Yeah.
Designing with AI
00:09:59
Speaker
So, you know, a lot of times right now we talk about like AI doing part of our jobs and taking over certain aspects of our jobs. That's kind of where people talk about those. One of the big things. However, you're in an interesting position, I think. So that I'd love to hear your take on this is like, yeah,
00:10:19
Speaker
As a product person, and I always get in trouble because I don't know what the right terminology is. People get mad when you say the wrong, like, oh, you're a UX person. People get upset. So I don't know what, what am I supposed to call you?
00:10:32
Speaker
product consultant would be product consultant okay that's that's simple enough all right so as a product consultant one of the things you're going to be doing in your future is like developing products designing products that leverage ai as part of how and the the the toolkit of how it develops and i mean sorry delivers an experience to the user so how is that been? How has that worked for you? How are you educating yourself on kind of that art of the possible? Like that that's gotta be, it's a whole new world, right? Like, yeah, it's exciting, honestly. ah
00:11:08
Speaker
Cause you can look at AI as as like a UX opportunity and also a product opportunity and you're going to get varying, like different results. And it's just a fascinating space to be in because no one knows what they're doing.
00:11:25
Speaker
And it's hilarious because people will say, oh, I'm an AI expert. I know all this stuff. And I'm like, guys, It's brand new. It's brand spanking new, okay? And just because what you you took a certificate class last week does not mean that you have it all
Defining AI Expertise
00:11:42
Speaker
packaged up.
00:11:42
Speaker
Because honestly, AI is something that evolves. ah it's It's fascinating because the more the more that we use it, the more that it changes. So it's almost impossible to actually be expert in AI.
00:11:59
Speaker
ah at least in in my opinion. I guess you could. If you know all all the back-end stuff, um then maybe maybe you could you could say it in a different way. But anyway, I think that This AI space is just a fascinating time to be alive because we are constantly relearning and we're retraining our behaviors and our habits and the way that we work and we're adapting like in real time. So it's like evolution in real time.
00:12:25
Speaker
So it's going to be really powerful. I think the people who ah do really well with adapting to it are probably going to do way better. than the folks who are attempting to use it like a crutch, which to be honest, I definitely use it like a crutch.
00:12:41
Speaker
I am definitely someone who likes to proactively check everything, like I said earlier. But yeah, it's just, it's a crazy time because ah Every single day I use AI in such unique and different ways.
00:12:54
Speaker
And I'll tell my team like, oh yeah, I used AI to troubleshoot an issue, like some weird obscure thing, like um a TV remote. I didn't know how to do something. so I took a picture of it and sent it to ChatGPT. And I'm like, how do I do, tell me what button to click.
00:13:11
Speaker
um And it actually did pretty well. And I was pretty shocked. But the amount of ways that I use AI changes on and on a day to day, like, and it's fascinating.
Knowledge Management in AI
00:13:21
Speaker
Recently, though, I feel like I've gotten into more ah knowledge base things.
00:13:29
Speaker
designing almost, is like with ChatGPT in particular, that's a that's a gp or that's an AI that has a memory, quote unquote memory, or information that you can give it. and You can add files and say, hey, this is like your source material. This is like my resume and who I am and all of that.
00:13:47
Speaker
And so that's been an interesting challenge. And I don't think anyone has done it really well quite yet of the management of your knowledge base within your AI, especially in like GPT, because GPT will save memories.
00:14:05
Speaker
And it's hard to be like, no, no, no, don't do that. That's wrong. Like, go and delete it. And to find it is kind of, it's kind of wild. But I'm starting to really understand or see like the value in the type of material that you give GPT to utilize.
00:14:22
Speaker
The better quality that is, the more likely it's going to be successful. Yes, I've, the the more rich the context is, I do, I think, yeah, you you got to get creative with that and and make sure that you're providing the right things. Because it it is funny, the sorts of things that it chooses to like latch onto, like the context pieces is like, oh, you said this one word. So I'm just going to go down that rabbit hole. And you're like, no, no, no, no no get come back up here with me. No, no, get out of that rabbit hole. Let's let's do something else, right? GPT is ADHD. Let's be honest. Maybe that's why that's why I vibe so well with it. I'm like, i see you.
00:14:58
Speaker
Yeah. And when we can we can go down those rabbit holes together. Yes. Now, I have noticed that something that's interesting and it's it'll be it'll be neat to see how we.
UI Evolution in AI
00:15:09
Speaker
where we go from here.
00:15:10
Speaker
But now that people are seeing ChatGPT, there seems to be kind of this emphasis, because like it started early on with like chatbots, right? Like everybody's like, oh, I can do a chatbot and it can be smart and you know who do all the cool things for me.
00:15:24
Speaker
We seem to be gravitating towards these two E's, these textual user interfaces where, well, just have the user type in what they want. you know It reminds me of that, you ever see that Seinfeld when Kramer signed up to be the voice of movie phone?
00:15:37
Speaker
You remember back in the old days, you'd have to call a phone number and say, you know, just tell you all the movies. And he was like he was like, press one for this and press two for that. Why don't you just tell me the movie you want to see? You know, that that's kind of the, you know, we're we're designing systems where you just type in here's what I want. Like, oh, I want to transfer money from this account to this account.
00:15:56
Speaker
And it just goes and does it behind the scenes. From a product perspective, that's it's almost like really dumbing things down, right? it' No buttons, no widgets, no whiz bangs, you know, that all of that goes away. You just a box and you type in there and tell me what you want. Is and that, is that what users really want? ah I don't believe so. Like my, I don't think so. It's like, it's, it's like,
00:16:19
Speaker
When computers, the first computer was basically a command line and like it was a text box, like we're just repeating history. it So we're at the beginning and this is chat, cbt or our AI is a command line that we are just putting into information. But there's a reason why the command line experience, it goes away for like a general consumer who's not as technical.
00:16:42
Speaker
um And that's just because I find that like the more options you have, the more flexibility you have, the less focused you can actually be, which is why like Americans, we have ah analysis paralysis. Like we go down to toothpaste aisle and there's like 500 different brands and you're just like, what do I do? Which one do I select?
00:17:04
Speaker
and So I feel like we're running into that issue with chat. And I have thought many times and I've even like tried to design experiences online. that almost come like bring back the UI elements, but like do it within the context of chats.
00:17:19
Speaker
I know that when AI first came out, a big thing in the UX community, people were talking about, was but was it it was like ah generative UI. So it would like change as you go.
00:17:33
Speaker
and I feel like all of that momentum just kind of stopped and it was like too hard. So we, everyone went back to like the chat experience and it works.
00:17:43
Speaker
And that's probably why it hasn't been completely changed. But I feel like the places that do it really well, ah usually it's like actually AI that's just hidden in the background. and You don't know that you're actually prompting it, but we're giving you ui elements to interact with it.
00:18:01
Speaker
That way we're kind of in control of the type of prompts and the context that you might need to get the result that you might want. So I think we're still in that process of how do we start merging together that flexibility with the easiness of just like, give me a button that says connect my Google Calendar.
00:18:20
Speaker
That's all I need. I don't need to write... and however many characters that is, like just just do it because it's very active to like it's a very active process of communicating with AI.
00:18:34
Speaker
um And it almost makes it harder to do like even in my GPDs and even in my like my cloud, whatever it might be, I have folders with specific instructions to like help me be faster about prompting. So I don't have to keep saying, oh, rewrite this or rewrite this and don't use any em dashes. Please, for the love of all the Lord, do not move any, which does not work. I don't know how many times I've said that it just keeps forgetting. It does not work. It does not work. But I will put it in there and then continuously remind it until maybe one day it will remember. But I just have no hope that it will.
00:19:09
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway, that's it. Yeah, so that's kind of my perspective, especially of the chat experience. I do believe it's going away a or at least I think my assumption, my hypothesis is that it'll eventually go away.
00:19:24
Speaker
It's just really easy to create right now. Easy is a relative term, like even Slack bots and customer support chats. And like there is a lot of value in having it.
00:19:36
Speaker
But I see actually more use cases in finding ways to use ui to essentially prompt the ai that makes yeah um yeah like the the thing i think about is like if if you really are going to dumb down your user interface to your experience and just say oh you just type in things that you want we just we just go to do it over time like if i'm thinking about like you know, apps that I use a lot, like ah's let's say my banking, I use the transfer money, right?
00:20:11
Speaker
If I had to go in every time and type out, I want to transfer money from my checking to my savings at $100, right? Like it's much quicker for me now that I know where that stuff is to go click, click, click and get there.
00:20:22
Speaker
And then having to type out the long pros every time. so I'm thinking, would it maybe be an experience? Could it be like, it's great at like, teaching me how to use the user interface, like a tutorial, instead of like, you know, yeah just tell you, ah i'm i'm looking to do this. Oh, click over here on this. And you it like a guided tour every time and to to kind of teach you how to use. Cause eventually if I can just do three clicks and transfer the hundred bucks and I'm done, i don't want to type out out like garbage and then have to say, Oh, you want to transfer from your savings to your checking. No, no, no. I said checking to savings like that, those ambiguities, like and I don't want to do that. I want to, I want to just go through the clicks and do it myself.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for sure. I think there's like a point of tiredness or like a fatigue that we reach, especially when we're using and we're relying on like our vocabulary to display concepts.
00:21:13
Speaker
and And I think that just it will have it'll eventually get simpler. But to get simpler, we have to be very intentional with like the like what tasks that we want to automate, because I think there are like times where you need it, you need to be a bit more ambiguous. You need to like talk through an idea in a very chaotic way to like get an idea out um and then have GPT kind of collect all your information and put it in a nice little summed up
AI as an Educational Tool
00:21:43
Speaker
version.
00:21:43
Speaker
And then there are times where you need to do like basic things. Like, can you just rewrite my email, please? like Please don't tell me about why you think you did such a good job rewriting my email. Just like give me the email because now I have to copy.
00:21:57
Speaker
I have to go to the end of the line that I want and copy it all up and not, and it's just frustrating. It's frustrating. So I think there is this fatigue that comes with chatting in general hopefully i do see that that's going to get a lot more simplified there's going to be times where you need it though there's going to be examples where um you're using gpt like i actually use it for support channels like i use it for how do i work this tv remote how do i um create this automation in jira how do i
00:22:33
Speaker
do all these things. I actually use it more like a tutor um where I'm like, can you explain all these concepts in a in an analogal metal analogy an analogy way that I can understand? So I usually ask, oh, tell me about this concept, ah like microservices, but explain it in a Figma analogy in some way. And I find that that's really helpful.
00:22:58
Speaker
It's all about intention when using AI. If your intent is to to kind of be lazy, then that'll, you know, you're going to you're going to get what you put into it.
00:23:10
Speaker
um But I like to use it more as like a coaching opportunity for me. um Also, though, whenever it does coach me, I have to like double check and say, go to a real person and touch grass and be like, hey, is this actually correct? Or is it just blowing smoke up ah everything?
00:23:27
Speaker
yeah um Because it definitely does tend to... ah tend to do that don't know i answered your question ah no i think so i i the the one thing i was i couldn't help but think of why why you were talking was we had a conversation on think it was the last episode where we kind of got into this a little bit of a you know existential crisis here of for software engineers is like you know Does clean code even really matter anymore?
AI in Development Practices
00:23:54
Speaker
Does it, does it, all the things that we know about, okay, to design code well, it looks like this. The reason you do it those ways is because the audience is a human being, but,
00:24:05
Speaker
more and more are going in the future, the audience is and an artificial intelligence. So do those things matter anymore? Are there any things in the in in your world, in the product world, where you know you you get this has been beat in your head through college and through your experience and everything, like, don't do this, don't ever do this, where it's like, well, you know, that kind of goes out the window with AI. Is there anything like that?
00:24:25
Speaker
Oh my gosh. I think there's so many things, but so many, many things, processes. i will. And it's funny. Cause I teach a bootcamp and I'm constantly like saying in the class, I'm like, this is a singular way to do something.
00:24:40
Speaker
This is not the only way to do it. And I think just being upfront is so important because there are so many times, um, Yeah, people can really get lost in those details and think like, oh, like I must follow this agile must methodology. ah i must do do it like this, this and this. And they're almost acting like a computer, like beep boop, I need to follow an exact framework.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yes. and But the thing is, I feel like all of that it's just an op It's just an option for, like even for me, like design principles, Gestalt principles are very much ingrained in, because that's, I went to school for visual communications and have have used it pretty frequently.
00:25:25
Speaker
And even those, like there exceptions. And even them like English language too, like there are exceptions to every rule. And so I do think that most things, especially development and user experience, if it makes sense for the user and it tests well, and you're getting like the feedback that you want,
00:25:47
Speaker
that's fine. It can look like crap. And if it's delivering, right that's all that matters at the end of the day. So we have to be very cognizant, like just understand that that we can follow all these like quote unquote rules, but I don't necessarily know if there is anything that's safe.
00:26:08
Speaker
Right. Because like even depending on the project, like I might follow some of the methodologies in Agile versus um I might follow some of my own methodologies that I've kind of merged together with Agile.
00:26:22
Speaker
um But it's not, I'm never like someone who's coming in like this is the exact process. And being rigid, I feel like it's just a slippery slope to work. not doing well, as you're obsessed with like following a certain process.
00:26:38
Speaker
and We just have to be open and understanding just because it worked in the past does not mean that it will work now, especially now because ai can throw a lot of wrenches and into our and to our things.
00:26:54
Speaker
Yeah, I've found myself and, and you know, as ah as a software engineer through the years, you know, you kind of get used to doing things your way, right? And you you might when you start working on teams, other people write code and it's not exactly the way you would write it.
00:27:08
Speaker
Now, when I was younger, i struggled with this and and I would rewrite things my way just because it wasn't my way. But over the years you learn, okay, it doesn't have to be my way. It can be another way. It still works, right?
00:27:22
Speaker
But now even i have to take that a step further because AI was writing things in a way that this doesn't make yeah this doesn't make any sense
Adapting to AI Challenges
00:27:30
Speaker
to me. ah I don't know why you went with this abstraction.
00:27:33
Speaker
Let's roll with it. So I'm having a hard time. like i'm I'm trying to be open-minded and allow you know things to go down a path. I'm just like, this just doesn't feel right. But we're rewriting the rule books, as you said, right? Like the rules may not apply anymore. we We have to be open to learning new rules and rewriting those rule books as we go right now.
00:27:52
Speaker
Exactly. And I think that America in general, like our business, from a business perspective, we are so focused on like being risk adverse and taking as little risk as possible to get the biggest bang for our buck.
00:28:08
Speaker
Yeah. ah And I think that's where another like another instance where we can't just because it worked 10 years ago does not mean it's going to work now. um and trying to get companies to step outside of that comfort zone is very challenging, especially when they've had so much success in the past.
00:28:28
Speaker
sure So that change is like huge. It's huge and it's uncomfortable. No one wants to do it. Everyone is going to be uncomfortable. And we just have to be okay with being uncomfortable. Because I think if you get comfortable, you're you you've kind of just like, you're at the end of the board game. like Yeah, you're done.
00:28:48
Speaker
You're done. Start a new one. And so for me, if I'm not growing, even if I've done project time and time again, I'm still looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes.
00:28:59
Speaker
And it's great. I have people in my life who will say, are you referencing in a past experience at this other company in that way? And that's and that's what's happening. um And I'm like, oh, you're right. I do need to take a step back and think about this as if I was a brand new employee.
00:29:18
Speaker
Okay. Well, so that's that's been great. and exploration of, you know, kind of how AI is impacting product. I think there's there's going to be more to come. So I'm sure we're going to be getting together again in the near future to talk about it even more. And all these AI topics just kind of it you know, two weeks later, we would have a completely different conversation. So it's, it's crazy.
00:29:36
Speaker
Uh, but now we need to transition to our ship it or skip it. Ship or skip, ship or skip. Everybody. We got to tell us if you ship or skip, you know, we've, it seems like everybody that comes on the podcast, you know, when it comes to software folks, right. We're all, everybody wants to talk about vibe coding.
00:29:54
Speaker
What about vibe designing? Is that a thing? Oh my gosh, it is 1000% a thing. um Anything just transparently, the word vibe, anything, vibe coding, vibe designing absolutely gives me the ick.
00:30:07
Speaker
It gives me the ick. It does. It makes me cringe. um Vibe designing, it's so funny because it's almost synonymous with vibe coding. I've yet to find something that like generates a flat image.
00:30:23
Speaker
that gives you a semi good looking ui almost always. Like if I'm asking ChatGPT or Claude or Lovable or Softgen, anything, if I ask for a ui based on like some criteria that I have, we'll just build it in HTML and CSS.
00:30:41
Speaker
Like, and that's how it conveys the information to me. um mean, maybe it's because I have not found something that does it really well, especially ChatGPT, because at the image generation is very sad, I would say.
00:30:57
Speaker
um But I would say, vibe designing is a good starting point when you're at a roadblock and you're like, hmm, I don't know what the best pattern is, or what if i what would it look like if I combined these two different UI patterns? How how could that work? And what are the pros and cons to that?
00:31:19
Speaker
So I think there's a place for it, but I've never once used the artifact of by designing ever because it's all, there's always been something weird and off about it. There's a reason why ai hasn't taken over UX.
00:31:37
Speaker
Like it's really hard to build UIs in a way that is contextual and usable. and like that functions well.
00:31:47
Speaker
So I would say for me, I like to use it more ideation, but mostly skipping it for anything after ideation, because it's just so unreliable. And maybe that'll change. Maybe that'll come in the future. I hear Cloud Code actually does prescribe some nice UI styles.
00:32:05
Speaker
um But even then, it's just kind of like development. Like you're going to look, if you ask it to do something, you're going to look at it and immediately spot all the errors. Same thing with design. It's the same, the same shtick.
00:32:16
Speaker
Does it, you know, does it do a good job of like, um you know, putting together raw kind of wireframe-y type of things? um does that Does that even work okay? Or is that still, you know, not usable yet?
00:32:32
Speaker
I feel like the wireframes in particular, i have not been successful in getting it. It almost always jumps to to like high fidelity, which is hilarious. like a junior designer who just like thinks that they have to jump into real life code to do it. um Yeah, so I feel like it just depends.
00:32:51
Speaker
Also, I can do, maybe I'm thinking about this too, like and because I know I said skip it for all other instances, it's not generating. I guess technically you can consider vibe designing as like high fidelity interactive prototyping, which in that standpoint, I would say that's important to do because you are building out a realistic example of ah the thing that you were trying to ideate on.
00:33:17
Speaker
So I would definitely ship that as like a process. And it, and again, this is one of those, like, are we rewriting the rules? Cause you know, I know I've heard you mentioned Ryan early. He taught me this, the whole, like, you know, stay ugly as long as possible. and That's something I learned from him.
00:33:33
Speaker
And, ah But is that even,
Design Philosophy and Tools
00:33:36
Speaker
is that necessary? The reason we do that is because it's, it's, it's prohibitive to do all the work to come to get to that high fidelity state. But if AI can do that with, with very little input and get you to that high fidelity, more high fidelity, not like complete, you know, full working app, but like more high fidelity and you don't have to stick like with napkin drawings and stick figures and stuff like that. And it can get you to, is do we rewrite the rule book there? Is it okay to go high fidelity quickly?
00:34:02
Speaker
That is an amazing question and a good thing to point out. I actually think it still makes sense to be low fidelity um all the way. if if in the core reason is because, and this is like a good UX principle, if you're ideating and creating and working with a stakeholder of any kind and you're saying, hey, this is what I'm proposing, giving them a high fidelity,
00:34:25
Speaker
ah image to critique is going to bias your results and it's going to make that person who's reviewing and giving you feedback focused on things that maybe don't matter as much.
00:34:37
Speaker
So I still think like even if I were to go into um Gen AI and like get it to create a prototype so that I can show i can show my client, I would still take the time to draw it out in like FigJam and make it look ugly.
00:34:54
Speaker
So that they stop focusing. Because like I'll get many arguments like, oh, I don't like this color. I wish it was red. i don't like that drop shadow. like Exactly. So there they do that, or the bike shedding thing. yeah ok So it's not just about the the input that it takes to get to the mock-up and why we stay low fidelity. it's real It's also more about so you can stay focused on the flow, not yeah the aesthetics. Is that?
00:35:22
Speaker
Because it's so easy to get into the UI. it is like And that's why it's so hard for even just in general, our industry to understand that UX and u i ah they ah aren't a singular thing. They can be separate things. They are separate separate things.
00:35:38
Speaker
But it's just so easy to Be like, oh, I'm comfortable with UI. I don't know what feedback to give you. So I'm just going to say the first thing that pops into my head. I wish that drop shadow was was pink or something like that.
00:35:52
Speaker
And it truly is just a way. It's all about the audience, too. like If I were to give ah a wireframe, like a high-fidelity prototype, I might...
00:36:03
Speaker
More for like demonstration, never for feedback is when i would when I would do that. But that's why I think wireframing so important, even if you start in high fidelity, because there are times where I've had to like just start in it because I was like getting used to the design language and I'm trying to understand what components I have access to.
00:36:20
Speaker
i But I always, always, always go back to wireframing because and that also focuses me on not being just a layout designer, like as ah someone who can...
00:36:31
Speaker
really go deep into the flow. um and it's like a, almost like a, something that I need to do for myself as well. So for stakeholders and for me, I need wireframes to put myself in this in the right frame of mind.
00:36:43
Speaker
Nice, that's cool. What about, I know one of the one of the struggles from ah from my perspective as a developer, when working with designers or or anyone who's coming from the, working closely with the customer on what what the experience needs to be, and then we arrive at high fidelity mockups, and then we need to really make that into code.
00:37:04
Speaker
that you know people just dump like, here's here's the design document. here's Here's your pages of like, oh, here's the colors, here's the this, here's the you know your drop shadow has to be two pixels down into the right, you know those sort of things. like Making that a reality, it's always been like, oh, well, I'll just snap my fingers and that and that that that comes to be.
00:37:24
Speaker
I think there's been some headway in the LLM world and and with with those sort of things around tools like Figma and Claude, What do you think there you know, are we at a point where designers can design things and then just press a button, zippity-doo-dah, and now we've got a component library? Is that working? I don't know. Tell me, where are we at there?
00:37:43
Speaker
Is that a ship it or skip it? 1,000% ship it because it is, feel like it is on the rise. Like MCPs, which I had no idea what that was before got into AI, but like essentially you can hook in and provide like inside of your...
00:38:02
Speaker
Essentially, inside of Figma, you as a designer ah will provide context to Figma to say, hey, this is what I want my UIs to look like.
00:38:14
Speaker
And i feel like the biggest issue going from Figma to code is that there's this ah huge loss of information. There's not a lot of understanding of like how your layers are structured because oftentimes we're using our layers and our auto layouts and our groups of content to describe like relationships between items, which is often really challenging to just think about.
00:38:41
Speaker
It's like, oh, because this thing is closer to this one, that means that they're related, which isn't, it's not always cut and dry. So having an MCP or a way to like hook in and get into the file of your Figma file will give AI, like a little bit more of a higher chance to one know what components are being used um to know what colors are being used based on the information and even look at like your structure of your layout.
00:39:09
Speaker
There's been so many times where a developer has come to me it's like, I don't know how to build this in this like very specific way. And I'm like, I'm not saying this is the right way, but in my layers inside of Figma, I have similar constraints, not the exact constraints.
00:39:25
Speaker
um But this is how I was able to make it work and still make it responsive and flexible and all that fun stuff. And that usually creates an idea for them to be like, ah, okay, I think I know what I need to try now. And it almost, it almost always,
00:39:39
Speaker
always works out. So I would say it's it's getting better and better. i don't think it'll there will ever be a time, maybe not, who knows. don't think be a time where you can go like Figma and then just like click to make it work because there's so much that goes on in the backend that like could make it really buggy or really icky. Like the interactions are so kind of borked for whatever reason.
00:40:04
Speaker
So I think there's always going to be some translation and some like auditing that must happen, but I do think it's becoming easier and delivering that context of these are my intentions with my design into code is get like that gap is closing even to the point where I know people who start in like cursor.
00:40:24
Speaker
And that's how they design. like They wireframe and they build inside of code. That's how they're able to essentially validate ideas quickly.
00:40:35
Speaker
And that's really exciting. like I am so stoked to be able to have that power of like, yeah, let me just like open up VS Code And let me just pull in all of my components that I have in my head and i'll it'll be quick enough for me to move things around. Because the reality is like Figma, it's just an easier way to move things around and it's faster.
00:40:58
Speaker
So if we can do that in code, like that would be sweet to work with the real life components. See, we had that a long time ago. Like we had visual basic, we had visual, all these things where everybody was draggy, droppy, clicky. And then everybody was like, this doesn't work.
00:41:18
Speaker
It's, it's coming full circle again. It is. We are a creature of habit humanity. Like I think is like, we, I think we're talking more about philosophy. Like were to think about guy in the, I don't know, like they're,
00:41:35
Speaker
probably going to go to college and they're going to talk about philosophy and what it means to be a human. I feel like we're just back at that mode. We're just like back to philosophical rediscovering because our situation has changed.
00:41:48
Speaker
But for us, it's just in technology, which is, it's really, it's really fun and fascinating. And I don't understand how a lot of people can say, oh, we're not going to hire junior devs just because that seems like AI, I don't think AI could do all of that, but maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? Who knows? But that's just kind of, yeah, my hot take on all of that.
00:42:13
Speaker
Okay. So you're ah ship it on the kind of qua Figma connector type thing. Oh yes. There's lots of opportunity there. All right.
00:42:23
Speaker
So we're done with our ship it or skip it. Now we're moving on to, and you've been on the show before, so you know, we have a lightning round.
00:42:35
Speaker
It's for the lightning
00:42:42
Speaker
Hands up quick and make it count. game, there's no way out. It's time for the lightning round. And as you know, this is the most important part.
00:42:53
Speaker
um we We can let go of all the things we've talked about before. That was not important. That was the warmup. This is the meat of the conversation right here. ah There are right answers.
00:43:06
Speaker
You're aware of this. I don't remember how you did last time. I don't remember you being on the leaderboard. So I'm just, you know, this may be a way for you to jump up there. Yeah.
00:43:18
Speaker
We'll see. um ah Time will tell. i Yeah. i I'm confident that you will have answers to these. That's all I'm confident and that's it. for It's where stops.
00:43:31
Speaker
What's your favorite car? My favorite car? Yeah. A Subaru? I don't know. A Subaru? Okay. That's fair. Favorite, what's your favorite type of muffin?
00:43:44
Speaker
If you're getting a muffin, what do you looking Cranberry. Cranberry muffins. Is that the orange cranberry, that mixture? Are you big on that? and i've heard that mixture.
00:43:54
Speaker
that's That's good. That's very tasty. Big fan. Okay. Can confirm. i do I do like that one too. um What is the maximum number of spritzes of perfume before it's too much?
00:44:06
Speaker
One. One? If you go over one, it's too much. is that that's So that's your that's your stance? it just It's too much. It's too much. Yeah, um'm I'm lucky. I had, now granted my daughters do like to wear perfume and they or they do those little sprays things, but like I'm glad I didn't have sons because with the whole Axe body spray thing, I hear that's a big issue. Like that's ah that's a, I'm glad I didn't have that issue.
00:44:32
Speaker
No, no, not a fan. How long can you hold your breath for? don't, 20 seconds? I don't know. 20 seconds? Is that high? I don't know. twenty seconds is that high i don't I don't I have no idea.
00:44:45
Speaker
Do you Instagram your food? I do not. actually do. Like I still have an Instagram, but I definitely got off of it like four years ago. I used to though.
00:44:57
Speaker
That was very fun. Like the camera's got to eat first kind of thing. yeah so yeah Phone has to eat first. ah those kids say these things I did that, but I definitely don't do it anymore. Now just take it on my phone.
Exploration Fears: Space vs. Ocean
00:45:10
Speaker
If you were given the opportunity to fly into space given today's technology, would you take it? No. We would have also accepted yes. I don't want to be sucked out of a, in a vacuum. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Yeah. risk that I would do that more than I would do the, I've always been very claustrophobic and I think space, you know, okay. Yeah. That's one thing of being claustrophobic, but like that whole like submarine thing where they went down under the ocean and just like, you ain't never get me in a submarine like that. And that is not happening.
00:45:45
Speaker
I'm definitely not on the bandwagon. Everyone else who's got who's like, take me to Mars, I'll be like, see ya never. i See, I would do that before I would get in a submarine, though. like I've seen Matt Damon figured it out. like You just have to grow potatoes in your own stuff. like you can You can figure it out on Mars.
00:46:02
Speaker
It didn't seem like it was going to be that big of a deal. Too scary, too scary. What's your favorite clothing brand? Popflex. Popflex. Yes. It's small active wear.
00:46:15
Speaker
I think she's on Instagram thing. Very nice. It's very nice. love Lovely, great material. What is wind? Wind. Wind.
00:46:27
Speaker
We've never had this question on the podcast before, so this this is interesting. Ooh, ooh, ooh. It's a wind is, I don't even know. It's air? Is that a cop-out answer?
00:46:40
Speaker
Wind? Wind. I don't know. i mean, I don't know the definition of what wind is myself, I guess. I don't know how I would describe it if I were. Is air in motion? Air in motion? That sounds. heat The absence of staleness?
00:46:54
Speaker
I don't know. Oh, you went the other way with it. Yeah. It's the opposite of not having wind. don't know. Reach and grasp me for straws. I have no idea. That's fair.
00:47:06
Speaker
Well, we did have one that, how do you feel about cranberries is a question, but you've already heard that you like cranberries. I'm a big fan of cranberries. Yeah. They're dried cranberries. um What is the sound you would make if you were freezing cold?
00:47:22
Speaker
hello Silence?
00:47:27
Speaker
When you're cold, you just to stand there and do we make no noise? Maybe I do a little bit of like...
00:47:37
Speaker
It's too bad this isn't a video podcast. Oh, yeah, because I had a full-on shiver. I don't know what I would do if I was cold. Maybe, yeah, I don't think I'd naturally chatter. Like, a lot of people chatter with their teeth. yeah I can't do that. That freaks me out.
00:47:51
Speaker
so your lips Like, when you're in a pool, do your lips turn, like, blue? Like, kids, do you know how they do that? Oh, my gosh, yes. yeah You're ready to get out, buddy. I'm usually out way before that. Yeah, when you get all, like, pruney and stuff. Yes.
00:48:04
Speaker
um When you fly on a plane, do you wear a neck pillow? I do not. I always forget about it. I feel like, I don't think I've ever worn a neck pillow, but I've always wanted to. And I always have this want to buy it, but I'm like, I'm never going to use it again. And it will just disappear in my house.
00:48:24
Speaker
So I would say no, not out of not wanting to I've seen people use them different ways, you know, that people get creative with these neck but Like one person had it where they didn't put it like behind them or into the lay to the side.
00:48:38
Speaker
They put the pillow under their chin so that their head didn't go down like, you know down to their chest. They just, you know, they could fall asleep with the pillow right there. Dang. i See, i I cannot sleep. I cannot sleep in anything that's not a bed. Yeah.
00:48:52
Speaker
I was like that horrible child that just never slept in cars or and in outside spaces unless it was. i was just awake. so All right. And finally, ah this is the this is for all the marbles. This is the last question of the lightning round.
00:49:09
Speaker
When was the last time you stayed up past four in the morning? College. Really? Yeah. I mean, I'm more likely to wake up at three in the morning or 4 a.m. just because I just wake up. But I i don't i don't do well with long periods of time of wakefulness.
00:49:27
Speaker
Like at midnight, I'm like, all right, guys. Turn it into pumpkin, huh? like I can't. I can't do it. at eight Let's be honest. At 8 p.m. when my kid goes to bed, i'm like inching toward bed.
00:49:39
Speaker
And my husband's like, let's watch a TV show. And I'm like, okay. are you Are you one of the – my wife's like that. She's like, oh, i why don't you watch a show with me? Okay. Sit down on the couch and, you you know, like show of turns on.
00:49:51
Speaker
I'm getting into the show five minutes. I turn on. Look at her. She's asleep. So i I can't sleep. I think I've only done it a few times, but I just can't. I can't sleep. I just look like a zombie.
00:50:02
Speaker
Like visibly uncomfortable. and my husband has to be like, all right, why don't you just go to bed if you can't like focus on this? And I'm like, that's a good idea.
00:50:14
Speaker
i don't do well with the all-nighters. I feel like I did when I was younger because I could hyper focus on the Sims content, which was really fun. But that's only, it's never intentional.
00:50:25
Speaker
It's always like accidental. Yeah. Like, oh, it oh it is 5 a.m. I didn't realize that. Yeah. All right. Well, this has been fantastic. Thank you um for for joining us today on the podcast. It was a great conversation. um Anything.
00:50:41
Speaker
coming up for you? You got any big blog posts you got, you're excited about any talks you're giving any, you've written a book, you know, anything like that? i like I would say, uh, in the summer, nick i think it's the summer.
00:50:55
Speaker
ah we have like Ryan and I will be writing another paper. And we will hopefully be presenting as well. I forget where some fancy, fancy country, but that's like the only thing I've got going on right now. Nothing, nothing too crazy at the moment.
00:51:12
Speaker
Maybe I'd pick up a few things. No, like rap singles or anything coming out soon or anything like that. Like I wish I was only that. I wish I was only that cool. All right. Well, thank you so much, Erica, for joining us today. This has been a a pleasure as always.
00:51:29
Speaker
Thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me be over optimistic about information architecture. Oh my gosh. Artificial intelligence, other acronym, IA versus AI.
00:51:39
Speaker
yes ah Thanks for letting me be super proactive and nerdy about it. I oftentimes feel like I am someone who just is overexcited. but So I'm really happy that I didn't get any eye rolls.
00:51:53
Speaker
None that you could see. I'm just kidding. Well, if you'd like to get in touch with us here at the forward slash, drop us a line at the forward slash at Caliberty.com. See you next time.
00:52:03
Speaker
Bye. The forward slash podcast is created by Caliberty. Our director is Dylan Quartz, producer Ryan Wilson, with editing by Steve Berardelli. Marketing support comes from Taylor Blessing.
00:52:15
Speaker
I'm your host, James Carman. Thanks for listening.