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064 - CIFA2018 - Mark Spanjer
82 Plays6 years ago
Mark Spanjer is an archaeologist, lecturer and speaker and one of the session organisers of Reconnecting Archaeology. In this interview he talks about finding the fun in archaeology, how to deal with alternative archaeology and what conferences represent.
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Transcript
Reconnecting Archaeology: Collaboration and Connections
00:00:23
Speaker
Well, they make great attempts. Let's put it that way. So you've been actually presenting and organizing stuff. You had your session today. What was that about?
00:00:24
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:33
Speaker
It was called reconnecting archaeology, and it is the intention, and I think we were successful at it, is that archaeologists have views about themselves and ideas and other archaeologists. And in the end, I think archaeology will be a more pleasant and worthwhile experience for all involved. If we sort of cross boundaries and where we have lost things, pick them up,
00:01:00
Speaker
and probably make new connections with other groups outside of archaeology. So that was very much about that. So we try to be a bit thought-provoking. And this is the whole thing, is that a lot of the time people feel very put into a corner, put into a box.
Self-Perception and Emotional Archaeology
00:01:15
Speaker
How do we get out of those boxes and do we put ourselves in them? Well,
00:01:23
Speaker
Boxes, we have a tendency to think that boxes are bad. But then if you don't have a box, if you don't have borders around you, you will probably feel quite lost. So it's not per se bad, but you should be aware of the boxes.
00:01:39
Speaker
And then if you start to get aware of these boxes, then you have to go through the assumptions and what people probably think of you, which is absolutely not the same as what people really are thinking. And it's an emotional thing. And we as archaeologists tend to sort of avoid emotion.
00:01:55
Speaker
And well, there are many times when you are on side or wherever you feel lonely or when you're feeling bad because your knees are going out or whatever that you think you're not like or whatever, but you're much more than your knees or your lonely position on watching Weev X or
00:02:15
Speaker
Your perception of things is different, and you have to challenge your own perceptions about this. You have to do it as your understanding of the landscape, but also of your understanding of yourself, your role as archeologist, and the role of archeologist as a whole.
Engaging with Alternative Histories and Storytelling
00:02:29
Speaker
A big thing, for instance, is we tend to say as a group, and nobody likes us. Well, if you are a scientist and you go out there, you'll see that people cannot enough of us.
00:02:42
Speaker
The box is partly your own choice and partly you are unaware of it, but try to be aware of it and address it. Talk to people. When you think there is a real problem with the box, talk to other people. And in the end, I will not say that the boxes go away, but at least you can make it a bit more comfortable.
00:03:01
Speaker
I think a lot of people are kind of worried, especially because there's a lot of ridicule out there for people who speak up and out. And there seems to be a hunger for, let's call it alternative history out there. How do archaeologists remain professional, but also approachable in that kind of area? Strange enough, I like alternative history.
00:03:29
Speaker
It's nonsense from my professional perspective but...
00:03:33
Speaker
The idea is behind it, the stories matter, if it's in a positive light. And you have also the revisionist things, the internationalist things. But in the end, stories are, we even tell it in the Faroe Convention.
Communication and Understanding Alternative Beliefs
00:03:50
Speaker
Everyone has its right on, every community has its right on its own. Archaeology, history, as long as it's legal. So we should professionally be able to engage it. And I think it's interesting.
00:04:04
Speaker
Even strangely enough, talking to some of the supranationalists, it is easy because you see how people tick. And essentially, how people tick is the reason why you do archaeology. Well, I feel that way. That doesn't mean you have to agree with them. And there are times when you absolutely have to say, oh, this is beyond the pale, and therefore I have to be very steady on it.
00:04:29
Speaker
But the strange thing is, if you let people with these alternate sort of rent or clamp or let you advise for 20 minutes, their energy goes out. And then you can start having a conversation. And then you can reach the other. After the first sentence, you say, it's nonsense. And you will not have a conversation. And you will not be able to convince the other. And especially when face to face you're confronted with it,
00:04:57
Speaker
Stay calm, look for the human behind them and sort of make a picture of why they're spouting in our eyes nonsense. There's definitely, yeah, no, what's just coming off that is there's a definite issue with the expert.
00:05:12
Speaker
You know, there's one group of people who only respond to experts. They want the facts of the past and that's how they want you to defeat the pseudo intellectuals. But then the other side, you're dealing with people who don't want experts. It's a difficult area to navigate.
00:05:31
Speaker
It is, and therefore it is very wise to just sort of use a few minutes of your contact, the first minute, to sort of figure out where in the spectrum the other is. Then it's not the idea that you sort of sell yourself out by doing it, but then you know how to react to it, which can be scary and exciting, or fun even. So it's not all bad, but
00:06:03
Speaker
If you don't like the expert, yeah, well, change the language. Say the same things, but then add a question. Give them an opportunity. Ask these silly questions. And one of the best silly questions you'll have if someone doesn't like an expert is, why? And then you listen again, and then you repeat, uh-huh, why? And then slowly you,
00:06:32
Speaker
you sort of peel down and then after a few minutes, well 20 minutes in, you again, you get to make people stop and then you sort of engage. You have to, yes it costs time, I have mentioned 20 minutes a few times already, but that's sort of what you need to really get into a contact with the other person.
00:06:51
Speaker
Some people who say they loathe you, well, in the end, if you make them laugh, then probably their loathing is not that deep. So it's all about making connections, making human connections, and not a sort of a bossy thing of I know best or whatever. And some people are lovely with spouting nonsense. Well, enjoy the contact and let them spout nonsense. Archaeology can be fun, but I feel sometimes that gets lost.
Balancing Routine and Joy in Fieldwork
00:07:17
Speaker
And I feel like archaeologists are quite
00:07:20
Speaker
prone to being self-reflective and I'll use it for lack of a better term, depressed and depressing about what the industry is like and the wider implications. Can archaeology be fun and how do we get to that fun place?
00:07:38
Speaker
No, just doing things like this. Just as simple as that. Have contact. Talk about what you love. Talk about the things. And we have a sort of a holy grail of the, for instance, fieldwork. The best thing you can do is fieldwork. Well, I don't want to be rotter, but if you are
00:08:00
Speaker
on a silly place where it's cold, where the wind chill factor brings it down to minus 20 and the sleet is coming around and you are sort of trying to draw. How fun is that? It's great at other stages and it's wonderful. And your memories are fun in most cases, but most of fieldwork is boring. And let's be honest, most of their jobs are about routine. And probably we couldn't do our jobs
00:08:28
Speaker
Even a surgeon, it sounds very exciting, will do... How excited will you be after you have done your 500th appendix or restored a hip or whatever? It's challenging, it's difficult, it gets this idea of... But it becomes routine as well. So we should be very much aware that sweat and just going through the motions are very much part of it.
00:08:51
Speaker
But engaging with your feeling, your idea, your own identity is helpful too. And don't take yourself that seriously. You mentioned in the spirit of not taking yourself so seriously, you mentioned about Back to the Future in your presentation right at the end about the future of archaeology.
Future of Archaeology: Optimism and Networking
00:09:13
Speaker
Could you expand a little bit on that? Well, there have been phases where we were very optimistic in the past and we
00:09:21
Speaker
There are these moments there where sort of collectively they, and I've been a few times where we think, now we have it, now we will turn, and now this thing will, and those were times when we were very much future, and we had this idea that this will bring answers, and then suddenly other things change, and all the answers are, well, not what they thought, but these moments, and therefore the pun or the intent is that we should go back to these places where we are thinking about the possibilities.
00:09:51
Speaker
And that's our future. We can engage with who we want to be and not what we become, get your energy from the dream. That sounds very nebulous, but in the end, what we mostly do at these conferences is
00:10:10
Speaker
reconnecting with the dream. Yes, of course, we do sessions. But we are here to reconnect with the dream. And we meet people we like, we've met before, we've studied with. So it is a whole social thing. And we tell the same stories every year in other formats, a slightly different thing. And it is all about the joy of meeting someone else, someone who is very close to what you want to do.
00:10:35
Speaker
This is one of the secrets of any professional conference you have. That's a joy. And I will not say that the speaking are bad, or the sessions cannot be inspirational, but... It's the meaning of it. Yeah.
Current Projects and the 'Archaeology of Happiness'
00:10:53
Speaker
And what are you kind of working on the moment, projects-wise? What have you got in the pipeline that you can tell us about?
00:11:03
Speaker
as many of us do job hunting. But that's not an instinct because we do that.
00:11:10
Speaker
There are dreams, and you try to find, well, for the next phase of your career, something you think is worthwhile. Because pay is nice, but sort of being in a position you think is interesting is much nicer for us. But thinking about teaching, thinking about how to address some of the problems with the younger staff or my students, what it would be to be an archaeologist. And that's very much my thinking.
00:11:38
Speaker
What people generally associate me is the archaeology of happiness. First of all, how do you prove it? Second of all, how do we all enjoy it? And that's a very fun intellectual exercise where I spend quite a lot, and you can do it everywhere, in the bath, in bed, at conferences, in the pub. That's the biggest project that takes up space in my mind at this stage.
00:12:09
Speaker
That's awesome. Well, thank you very much for your time. Thank you for your time. Always a pleasure. Enjoy the rest of the conference. I will. I will. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.